| --- Log opened Mon Jan 30 00:00:38 2012 | ||
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| @kanzure | undetectable technology http://www.kk.org/thetechnium/archives/2012/01/undetectable_te.php | 09:38 |
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| strages_work | kanzure: so like living structures, etc? | 09:48 |
| strages_work | I can still see people calling "magic!" upon witnessing such things making Clark's original statement still valid. | 09:49 |
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| archels | kanzure: 'gaia'? 'nature'? What a crock. | 12:02 |
| @kanzure | heh :) | 12:04 |
| @kanzure | he's a old man, give him some slack | 12:04 |
| archels | dreaming is okay, but don't try to sell it as science | 12:07 |
| rkos | i think it would be best to try to figure out life on this planet before starting to speculate about life on other planets | 12:13 |
| rkos | if you want alien technology just look at your hand, how much do you really understand about what goes on in there? | 12:13 |
| archels | Finding out about the existence of life elsewhere in the universe is pretty orthogonal to understanding life here on Earth. | 12:14 |
| archels | It's almost as if you're saying that we should only do low-risk, low-returns research. | 12:14 |
| rkos | well no, but it is pretty hard to get any kind of handle on thinking about aliens | 12:15 |
| rkos | seems just so far out of reach to me | 12:16 |
| rkos | like if life evolves somewhere else is it even going to lead to anything remotely comparable to us | 12:17 |
| archels | SETI *might*'ve come up with something, if luck would have had it | 12:17 |
| rkos | what is life anyways, what is there to look for out there? | 12:17 |
| archels | Of course now we're being a bit overenthousiastic in identifying exoplanets... | 12:17 |
| archels | let's not get too philosophical :) | 12:18 |
| Mokstar | whatever drives the technology is fine by me | 12:18 |
| rkos | yeah, i've just been reading schrödingers essays "what is life?" recently | 12:19 |
| archels | ah, cool | 12:19 |
| Mokstar | if they wanna build a quantum computer to figure out tomorrow's sport's scores, that's just peachy IMO | 12:19 |
| Mokstar | just so long as they don't hog it :p | 12:19 |
| rkos | the public has been losing its interest in space lately though | 12:23 |
| rkos | it's all about virtual space and inner space these days... | 12:24 |
| archels | apparently not, what with Gingrich's big plans | 12:24 |
| rkos | is that the moon base plan? | 12:25 |
| rkos | that sounded nice | 12:25 |
| archels | yeh | 12:25 |
| archels | unrealistic, but it shows the idea is alive and well | 12:25 |
| rkos | well its probably best to be always aiming a bit high | 12:26 |
| archels | http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ouRbkBAOGEw | 12:29 |
| Stee| | gingrich is driving on american jingoism unfortunately | 12:29 |
| Stee| | granted, many would call me a jingoist | 12:30 |
| Mokstar | I'm a jengaist | 12:30 |
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| rkos | http://pubs.acs.org/doi/full/10.1021/sb2000287 | 13:20 |
| @kanzure | what is it? | 13:20 |
| @kanzure | links that aren't self-explanatory require an explanation, rkos :/ | 13:21 |
| rkos | it just discusses the possibilities of synthetic biology | 13:27 |
| rkos | not that extensively though | 13:28 |
| rkos | but its where im putting my money, or my life since im a poor student with no money | 13:29 |
| uniqanomaly__ | "Gingrich vows to ban embryonic stem-cell research, questions in vitro practices" seriously, people with opinions like that should be prohibited from using any tech being derivative of research like this | 13:30 |
| rkos | the possibility of using designed organisms to efficiently produce chemicals | 13:30 |
| uniqanomaly__ | by law ;> | 13:30 |
| @kanzure | hm, i'm more popular than aubrey on google+ | 13:31 |
| uniqanomaly__ | that would be one badass law | 13:31 |
| rkos | though my pie in the sky dream about is that our bodies are produced by cells very energy effiecently, so if you just were good enough at controlling cells you could produce anything rivaling the most complex animal bodies, not just industrial chemicals/pharmaceuticals | 13:31 |
| Stee| | bah, biology :P | 13:34 |
| @kanzure | http://www.whitehouse.gov/administration/eop/ostp/library/publicaccess | 13:36 |
| @kanzure | i'm reading responses to OSTP | 13:37 |
| @kanzure | about open access policies | 13:37 |
| @kanzure | http://www.whitehouse.gov/sites/default/files/microsites/ostp/Scholarly%20Pubs%20Comments%201-100.pdf | 13:37 |
| @kanzure | just random emails that people sent in. some of these are essays? | 13:37 |
| @kanzure | huh the freepatentsonline person wrote in with something | 13:39 |
| rkos | whats the argument against open access? | 13:40 |
| @kanzure | hrm there's also an email from paul fernhout | 13:41 |
| @kanzure | hah. hi paul.. | 13:41 |
| @kanzure | rkos: look for "http://www.whitehouse.gov/sites/default/files/microsites/ostp/Scholarly%20Pubs%20Comments%201-100.pdf" | 13:42 |
| @kanzure | that one is against open access, i think | 13:42 |
| @kanzure | oops | 13:42 |
| @kanzure | "onomic climate, the income generated from copyrighted publications cannot be overstated" | 13:43 |
| @kanzure | the one with that line^ | 13:43 |
| @kanzure | or the one that says "threatened by access policies that do not take these costs into account, and it is critically important tha" | 13:44 |
| Stee| | Ugh | 13:48 |
| Stee| | if it's funded by taxpayers, it should be open access | 13:48 |
| Stee| | barring certain classified publications | 13:48 |
| @kanzure | "but it will disrupt the science industry's stability in the US and cause us to lose our competitive advantage as a nation!" | 13:49 |
| @kanzure | that seems to be the argument that anti-open-access people sent in. | 13:49 |
| Stee| | it will increase our competitive advantage | 13:49 |
| Stee| | which is why we should do it | 13:49 |
| @kanzure | duh.. | 13:50 |
| rkos | publishing companies are clearly the thing that makes the US economy run... | 13:53 |
| @kanzure | clearly | 13:55 |
| @kanzure | "without these publishing companies, our scientific excellence will be compromised!" | 13:55 |
| @kanzure | those must be some amazing editors huh | 13:55 |
| Stee| | you mean volunteer peer reviewers? | 14:00 |
| Stee| | yes, I know there are editors as well | 14:00 |
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| Stee| | waiting for this phone call is killing me | 14:22 |
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| @kanzure | http://www.longecity.org/forum/page/index.html/_/science/projects/cryopreservation-fundraiser-r36 | 14:26 |
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| @kanzure | hi ChillyVanilly | 16:24 |
| @kanzure | jmil: yo. how goes it? | 16:24 |
| jmil | pretty good. you? | 16:25 |
| ChillyVanilly | yo | 16:25 |
| @kanzure | just fine, did you get stuff published yet | 16:25 |
| @kanzure | people in here have been asking about your cell printing head | 16:25 |
| @kanzure | jmil: any updates | 16:50 |
| jmil | ah, no i'm not printing cells directly | 16:51 |
| jmil | but it could work with that | 16:51 |
| jmil | but i don't think that's feasible at all | 16:51 |
| @kanzure | i thought you had some sort of extruder | 16:51 |
| jmil | ya i'm printing a special kind of material to make perfusable tissues | 16:51 |
| jmil | with a patterned vasculature | 16:51 |
| jmil | that resembles blood vessel networks | 16:52 |
| @kanzure | Stee|: was it you who was asking about this | 16:52 |
| jmil | but it's not direct cell printing | 16:52 |
| jmil | primary cells will not survive cell printing | 16:52 |
| jmil | primary cells like hepatocytes (liver) and beta cells (pancreas) | 16:52 |
| jmil | they won't survive | 16:52 |
| jmil | and neural cells | 16:52 |
| jmil | shear stresses are too high | 16:52 |
| jmil | so i have a different approach | 16:53 |
| @kanzure | hrm is the paper out yet | 16:53 |
| jmil | where those cells can be formed into perfusable tissues | 16:53 |
| jmil | no not out yet | 16:53 |
| jmil | hopefully this year! | 16:53 |
| jmil | we are resubmitting in february | 16:53 |
| jmil | got more data | 16:53 |
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| @kanzure | yikes what was the rejection reason | 16:53 |
| @kanzure | hey nmz787 | 16:53 |
| nmz787 | hi kanzure | 16:54 |
| jmil | kanzure: a cell printing guy didn't like it lol | 16:54 |
| jmil | but he's a moron | 16:54 |
| jmil | and we are rebutting | 16:54 |
| jmil | and anyway peer review takes time | 16:54 |
| @kanzure | nmz787: jmil is talking about his reprap extruder for printing a vasculature | 16:54 |
| nmz787 | oh, sweet! | 16:54 |
| nmz787 | piezo or heat dispensed (i can't remmeber the term, but its when you heat the chamber behind the nozzle to increase pressure to force the ink out) | 16:55 |
| jmil | cell printing has been around for a decade or more. they still don't print primary cells or give us organs | 16:55 |
| nmz787 | 'ink' | 16:55 |
| jmil | nmz787: i'm using heated syringe and air pressure. | 16:55 |
| jmil | no cells | 16:55 |
| nmz787 | so you're printing a structure then seeding it? | 16:56 |
| jmil | something like that | 16:56 |
| jmil | but the vasculature is multiscale and cylindrical just like human organs | 16:57 |
| @kanzure | is this a 3d vasculature | 16:57 |
| jmil | yes | 16:57 |
| @kanzure | hrm | 16:57 |
| nmz787 | have non-cylindrical vasculatures been tried ? | 16:57 |
| jmil | sure | 16:57 |
| nmz787 | oo | 16:57 |
| jmil | lots of stuff has been tried | 16:57 |
| nmz787 | why? | 16:57 |
| @kanzure | oh is it just a plastic infused with protein | 16:58 |
| @kanzure | and you just print a 3d mesh blob | 16:58 |
| @kanzure | no, nevermind. | 16:58 |
| jmil | why what? | 16:58 |
| nmz787 | isn't the whole volume to surface area thing of spheres a gradeschool idea? | 16:58 |
| jmil | i dunno what you're asking nmz787 | 16:58 |
| nmz787 | why would anyone try printing a pipe that isn't cylindrical | 16:59 |
| jmil | oh | 16:59 |
| jmil | because they couldn't figure out how to print cylinders | 16:59 |
| jmil | :D | 16:59 |
| nmz787 | lol | 16:59 |
| nmz787 | ok | 16:59 |
| nmz787 | fair enough | 16:59 |
| Stee| | nmz: The project I'm working on might be able to print complex organs in 15 years | 16:59 |
| jmil | cell printers and layer-by-layer are the two technologies that are out there | 16:59 |
| jmil | they deposit everything that is NOT the vasculature | 16:59 |
| jmil | so it builds up layer by layer and the manufacturing does not scale | 17:00 |
| jmil | Stee|: reprap based? | 17:00 |
| Stee| | no | 17:00 |
| Stee| | electrohydrodynamic jet printing | 17:00 |
| jmil | my method is a new third option | 17:00 |
| @kanzure | http://reprap.org/wiki/Reprappable-inkjet | 17:00 |
| jmil | Stee|: have you printed cells before with it? | 17:01 |
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| Stee| | cells have been printed with it, but not our particular setup | 17:01 |
| jmil | that's a lot of shear stresses. i've seen a couple papers about that kind of stuff | 17:01 |
| jmil | what are you doing with it right now? | 17:01 |
| Stee| | trying to build an ejection to final shape model | 17:02 |
| Stee| | that will allow us to closed loop control based off monitoring current | 17:02 |
| Stee| | for higher precision in the sub 1um scale | 17:02 |
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| jmil | nice! | 17:02 |
| jmil | Stee|: how come droplet based instead of photolithography if resolution is what you're after? | 17:03 |
| nmz787 | so seems like the challenge with printing the vasculature is A) finding the right material that takes over as the ECM, and doesn't block cell:cell interactions, limit perfusion (i.e. plastic would probably) B) modelling the required vasculature for an organ (this maybe could be ripped from microtome data of the organ of interest) | 17:03 |
| nmz787 | then resolution | 17:03 |
| nmz787 | of the printer | 17:03 |
| Stee| | jmil: we can do more materials | 17:04 |
| jmil | nmz787: yes that's very close to it | 17:04 |
| Stee| | also multi-material nozzles eventually | 17:04 |
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| jmil | nmz787: i have the microCT -> 3d printed vasculature feasibility already done. that will be closer to 20 yrs though :D | 17:05 |
| jmil | because of the funding required | 17:05 |
| jmil | but proof of concept is done | 17:05 |
| Stee| | how much funding? | 17:05 |
| jmil | it's not known yet. lol. | 17:06 |
| jmil | i'm trying to get a real job. then i'll be applying for real grants. then, we'll see. | 17:06 |
| jmil | i'd say 20 years it will be there. conservatively. | 17:06 |
| jmil | if i get a job this year i will be able to do a lot | 17:07 |
| jmil | Stee|: cool about your printer | 17:07 |
| delinquentme | nmz787, sounds like stuff for organovo | 17:08 |
| jmil | delinquentme: they are doing cell printing | 17:09 |
| jmil | different... | 17:09 |
| nmz787 | thanks delinquentme... I'll send them a resume, since I need a job after my degree finishes in 4/5 months | 17:09 |
| delinquentme | yeah you guys are looking at strictly vasculature? | 17:09 |
| jmil | nmz787: what's ur degree in? | 17:10 |
| nmz787 | biotech, minor in bioinformatics (i've been programming and using linux for 10+ years, and have over a year of uni-level CS) | 17:10 |
| jmil | nmz787: where at? | 17:10 |
| nmz787 | RIT, Rochester NY | 17:11 |
| jmil | cool | 17:11 |
| nmz787 | yeah its not a bad program | 17:11 |
| jmil | ya i got family in rochester. was just there a couple weeks ago :D | 17:12 |
| nmz787 | a lot of mixed reviews, but I got a lot out of it | 17:12 |
| nmz787 | cool | 17:12 |
| nmz787 | its been a crazy winter... snow one week, 50 deg F the next | 17:12 |
| jmil | true | 17:12 |
| Stee| | oh | 17:13 |
| Stee| | nmz787, I'm at RPI | 17:13 |
| Stee| | jmil, I'm hoping to start a VC group for h+ type techs someday in the mid future. | 17:14 |
| jmil | Stee|: nice | 17:14 |
| nmz787 | cool | 17:14 |
| jmil | who are you working with at RPI Stee| ? | 17:14 |
| jmil | or are you faculty there? | 17:14 |
| Stee| | I'm working with the mech e department | 17:15 |
| Stee| | I'm a graduate student | 17:15 |
| Stee| | almost done, thank god | 17:15 |
| Stee| | working with Sandipan Mishra and Samuel Johnson | 17:16 |
| Stee| | err | 17:16 |
| Stee| | Johnson Samuel | 17:16 |
| jmil | cool | 17:17 |
| delinquentme | nmz787, RIt is ? | 17:17 |
| nmz787 | Rochester Institute of Technology | 17:18 |
| delinquentme | ahhh nice nice | 17:18 |
| jmil | Stee|: what ya gonna do next, besides the VC group? | 17:18 |
| nmz787 | my gf got a job in NYC... good for her, but I'm not finding much of a job market for bio anything there | 17:18 |
| jmil | nmz787: ya bio is tough | 17:19 |
| jmil | boston is huge in biotech | 17:19 |
| nmz787 | going to start looking for more programming/embedded software jobs | 17:19 |
| jmil | nmz787: you said you like linux though? | 17:19 |
| jmil | oh ya | 17:19 |
| Stee| | jmil: I'm going to probably go be an engineer for the government for a while | 17:19 |
| nmz787 | yeah | 17:19 |
| jmil | cool Stee| . NIH? | 17:19 |
| Stee| | and then move into security/defense consulting, or forecast consulting | 17:19 |
| Stee| | nope | 17:19 |
| Stee| | DoD/Mil | 17:19 |
| jmil | cool | 17:19 |
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| nmz787 | jmil, I just applied to a job as a 'linux server farm'... umm, farmer? | 17:21 |
| jmil | lol | 17:21 |
| kanzure | nmz787: what? no don't do that | 17:21 |
| jmil | makerbot is hiring too, ya know... | 17:21 |
| kanzure | makerbot never responds to me | 17:21 |
| jmil | about what? | 17:22 |
| kanzure | "hey dudes, i built a thingiverse clone, let me know" | 17:22 |
| kanzure | nope. nothing. | 17:22 |
| kanzure | for their obs. | 17:22 |
| kanzure | *jobs | 17:22 |
| nmz787 | kanzure... need job to have $ to invest in my projects, or put away for if/when I want to do PhD | 17:22 |
| kanzure | nmz787: don't send in applications. that never works. | 17:22 |
| jmil | you built a thingiverse clone? | 17:22 |
| kanzure | jmil: yes. i hate how thingiverse doesn't use git.. | 17:22 |
| jmil | oh ya lol | 17:23 |
| jmil | kanzure: https://github.com/jmil/Thingiverse | 17:23 |
| kanzure | is this just a scraper | 17:24 |
| kanzure | yeh, i have some scrapers | 17:24 |
| kanzure | http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/irc/thingiverse/ | 17:24 |
| jmil | ya just a scraper based off one i found posted on thingiverse | 17:24 |
| jmil | oh nice! | 17:24 |
| jmil | makerbot does one thing and they don't listen to anyone | 17:25 |
| nmz787 | kanzure: shoot me some emails to spam with my resume! | 17:25 |
| jmil | evar | 17:25 |
| kanzure | jmil: pretty much | 17:25 |
| kanzure | nmz787: what? | 17:25 |
| kanzure | oh you mean, people | 17:25 |
| Stee| | nmz787, you do primarily bio? | 17:25 |
| jmil | kanzure: i didn't understand your text above… you were writing makerbot about jobs too? | 17:25 |
| kanzure | jmil: yes, all of my income is from contracting gigs so it's theoretically possible for makerbot to hire me if they want | 17:26 |
| jmil | ah | 17:26 |
| kanzure | we shouldn't have to all write scrapers to get thingiverse content :( | 17:27 |
| kanzure | i know at least two other people who have done the same thing | 17:27 |
| Stee| | kanzure, send me your resume? | 17:28 |
| kanzure | jrayhawk: it looks like dot files vanished? | 17:28 |
| kanzure | i had a .htaccess in ~/public_html/irc/ | 17:28 |
| jmil | kanzure: you could try to work with the webmaster directly. marty is pretty reasonable | 17:29 |
| kanzure | or, why isn't my .htaccess in ~/public_html/ being respected | 17:29 |
| nmz787 | Stee|: the last internship i has was writing bioinformatics code... before that it was writing and debugging code related to embedded Texas Instruments DSP chips for a biomedical device (also worked with MATLAB, and GUI development in python and C#)... before that I was writing working on particle tracking software for a leukocyte/neutrophil cell adhesion/rolling modelling project | 17:29 |
| kanzure | jmil: sure, i haven't tried to talk with him in a while. maybe i should. | 17:29 |
| jmil | ya | 17:29 |
| kanzure | Stee|: what for | 17:29 |
| Stee| | so I can keep an eye out? | 17:29 |
| jmil | their business model depends on advertising to pay for the site, so they may be against git in general because you wouldn't have the ads | 17:29 |
| Stee| | nmz787: Lots of people are hiring embedded software people in defense | 17:29 |
| nmz787 | Stee|: a few more computer gigs before that, HCI stuff, general networking... and then at the very beginnning of my B.S. I worked with quorum sensing and environmental DNA libraries | 17:31 |
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| nmz787 | Stee|: most of the bio research at my school isn't interesting to me... so I've been focusing on the instrumentation end of things | 17:32 |
| Stee| | Hmm | 17:32 |
| Stee| | any preference to industry nmz787? | 17:33 |
| nmz787 | cancer research is great and all, but I don't want to pipette all day... I'd rather envision an assay and implement it in LabView-type GUI software... for the assay to be carried out in automation | 17:33 |
| nmz787 | not really | 17:33 |
| nmz787 | I'd like to stay away from huge conglomerate corp... i like small company dynamics... but gov labs seem to be a nice mix | 17:34 |
| Stee| | MIT Lincoln Labs | 17:34 |
| Stee| | uhh | 17:34 |
| Stee| | Mitre is pretty sweet | 17:34 |
| kanzure | there's a few open hardware guys at mitre | 17:34 |
| Stee| | both of these have decent gpa requirements | 17:34 |
| kanzure | gpa requirements? haha | 17:35 |
| kanzure | why would you want to work somewhere that has gpa requirements *at all* | 17:35 |
| Stee| | because these are the places that build the coolest shit, with only a couple exceptions | 17:35 |
| Stee| | Raytheon, for example | 17:35 |
| Stee| | 3.0 GPA req | 17:35 |
| kanzure | gpa has nothing to do with coolness factor | 17:35 |
| Stee| | this is true, but coolness factor places often require gpa | 17:35 |
| Stee| | http://www.objet.com/COMPANY/Careers/ | 17:36 |
| kanzure | um | 17:36 |
| nmz787 | my gpa has dipped below 3.0 because I don't want to be in school anymore :( | 17:36 |
| kanzure | sounds pretty lame to me, Stee| | 17:36 |
| Stee| | exoskeletons | 17:36 |
| kanzure | exoskeletons, but not any that you own | 17:36 |
| kanzure | and all sorts of "Intellectual Property Rights" that will skullrape you | 17:36 |
| kanzure | big deal | 17:36 |
| Stee| | you're working on a project for the company, yes | 17:36 |
| Stee| | you are one engineer among dozens | 17:36 |
| kanzure | so how is that cool? | 17:36 |
| kanzure | cog in the system? | 17:36 |
| Stee| | Pushing the cutting edge of a field that's fucking sweet | 17:36 |
| kanzure | that's their marketing talking | 17:37 |
| nmz787 | sometimes you need cogs though | 17:37 |
| Stee| | sarcos doesn't have a ton of marketing | 17:37 |
| nmz787 | a car doesn't run without them | 17:37 |
| nmz787 | neither does a huge multi-arm project (i.e. bioengineered biofuels) | 17:37 |
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| delinquentme | Stee|, Raytheon | 17:39 |
| delinquentme | nice | 17:39 |
| Stee| | that's not where I'm working | 17:39 |
| delinquentme | build machines to continue powering killing people | 17:39 |
| Stee| | I'm (probably) going to be working at a facility I'm not sure how much I can talk about | 17:39 |
| delinquentme | more government | 17:39 |
| delinquentme | ? | 17:39 |
| Stee| | delinquentme: I'm cool with killing people as long as I perceive it as long term saving more lives | 17:39 |
| Stee| | yeah | 17:39 |
| delinquentme | im meh towrads it | 17:39 |
| delinquentme | Stee|, ehh | 17:40 |
| delinquentme | if an alien civ cam around they'd see us as a bunch of war mongering bickering children | 17:40 |
| delinquentme | really | 17:40 |
| Stee| | maybe :) | 17:40 |
| eudoxia | you can't really be sure of that | 17:40 |
| delinquentme | our biggest pursuit is beating each other | 17:40 |
| Stee| | it's worked pretty well so far | 17:41 |
| eudoxia | evolution bruh | 17:41 |
| delinquentme | eudoxia, evolution in percieved state of scarcity | 17:41 |
| kanzure | hi eudoxia | 17:41 |
| delinquentme | and while I cant be sure of the alien thing | 17:41 |
| delinquentme | we are a bunch of argumentative little children w little dick syndromes | 17:42 |
| eudoxia | hi kanz, delinquentme | 17:42 |
| eudoxia | I guess the Prisoner's Dilemma could be used as an argument for benevolence in aliens | 17:42 |
| eudoxia | Frank Tipler does it so why the fuck not | 17:43 |
| nmz787 | a friend recently was thinking that out war-like nature is allowing us to kill off 'prune' inefficient societies, and that the more efficient societies are such because of technology | 17:43 |
| kanzure | uhrm. | 17:43 |
| kanzure | let's get back to work :P | 17:43 |
| nmz787 | said friend also was talking about how pooled wealth (i.e. the 1%) is actually good for society because we can then pursue more and more complex technology, which allows us to outcompete other societies, thus pushing the species forward as a whole | 17:44 |
| Stee| | I'm waiting for my burrito | 17:44 |
| delinquentme | kanzure, <<< | 17:45 |
| nmz787 | I don't endorse said friend's idea! | 17:45 |
| nmz787 | but its interesting | 17:45 |
| Stee| | nmz787: Pooled wealth is fine assuming a sufficiently high floor to societal wealth | 17:45 |
| kanzure | nmz787: "pushing the species forward" is a very vague term | 17:45 |
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| jrayhawk | kanzure: overrides are retarded; please use <Directory> or <Location> configs | 17:49 |
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| kanzure | jrayhawk: :( | 17:51 |
| kanzure | jrayhawk: okay :( | 17:51 |
| kanzure | yashgaroth: see backlog | 17:51 |
| yashgaroth | I've been reading, you mean vasculature printing I assume? | 17:52 |
| kanzure | sounds like it, jmil is still around i think | 17:53 |
| jrayhawk | specifically, incurring dozens of failed (uncached) path lookups and potentially reconfiguring apache on *every request* is highly undesirable | 17:53 |
| jrayhawk | as is the confusion it causes me when configuration is not in a config directory | 17:53 |
| yashgaroth | jmil: so are you just printing the ECM and then seeding cells? | 17:55 |
| jmil | no, not exactly | 17:55 |
| jmil | printing the vasculature, then seeding the cells and ECM together | 17:55 |
| jmil | around the vasculature | 17:55 |
| yashgaroth | ahhh okay | 17:55 |
| kanzure | hm there's a #homecmos | 17:56 |
| jmil | one-step tissue fabrication from the cells' perspective. the cells never see multiple fabrication steps | 17:56 |
| yashgaroth | did you have an model organ in mind? | 17:56 |
| kanzure | http://en.qi-hardware.com/homecmos-logs/ | 17:56 |
| jmil | yashgaroth: all of them… :D | 17:58 |
| jmil | mostly liver, pancreas, heart | 17:58 |
| jmil | liver is what we're working on most right now | 17:58 |
| yashgaroth | yeah that seems like the easiest complex organ | 17:58 |
| jmil | if i get a job eventually i want to get to neurons. neurons won't survive cell printing. but they will survive my method | 17:59 |
| jmil | yashgaroth: any others we should look at? lung? kidney? | 17:59 |
| yashgaroth | skin would be good I'd think | 17:59 |
| yashgaroth | as a 'starter' organ anyway | 18:00 |
| jmil | ah skin's been done a long time ago | 18:00 |
| yashgaroth | true, but not like this | 18:00 |
| jmil | we're only looking at solid organs | 18:00 |
| jmil | that can't be done in other ways | 18:00 |
| yashgaroth | hmmm | 18:00 |
| yashgaroth | bone? | 18:00 |
| yashgaroth | probably without the marrow | 18:01 |
| jmil | bone would be a really good one. but we don't have materials stiff enough to make rigid bone yet still liquidy enough to enfuse around the vasculature during casting | 18:01 |
| jmil | could be cool though | 18:01 |
| yashgaroth | pretty much just leaves intestines then | 18:02 |
| jmil | intestines are not as needed because humans have more than they really need with todays food supply | 18:02 |
| jmil | so we are doing solid organs | 18:02 |
| yashgaroth | shitting in a bag must suck, but I get your point | 18:03 |
| jmil | plus intestines could be made with the same technology anthony atala is using for urinary bladder regeneration | 18:03 |
| jmil | oh colostomies are not because of lack of intestine… it's because of lack of muscle regeneration therapies | 18:03 |
| jmil | muscle is what we are also doing | 18:03 |
| kanzure | yeah i see lots of mesh+intestine stuff | 18:04 |
| jmil | (sub from cardiac) | 18:04 |
| yashgaroth | he's not the guy using decellularized animal organs is he? | 18:04 |
| yashgaroth | muscle seems hard though | 18:04 |
| jmil | he's the guy doing everything | 18:04 |
| jmil | yashgaroth: that's why we're going to approach it | 18:04 |
| jmil | getting aligned muscle fibers is hard | 18:04 |
| jmil | but getting high cell density around perfusable channels in 3d is now easy | 18:04 |
| kanzure | yashgaroth: i've had trouble figuring out the actual mechanism of hypergrowth in muscles | 18:04 |
| jmil | so i figure i can iterate until i get there | 18:04 |
| jmil | kanzure: hypergrowth? | 18:05 |
| kanzure | i mean, | 18:05 |
| yashgaroth | you mean myostatin activin follistatin 'roids etc? | 18:05 |
| kanzure | um, what's the right term | 18:05 |
| kanzure | yashgaroth: not quite | 18:05 |
| yashgaroth | hypertrophy/plasia are the technical terms | 18:05 |
| kanzure | yashgaroth: i mean exercise | 18:05 |
| kanzure | hypertrophy, thanks | 18:05 |
| jmil | a lot of people are studying the satellite cell -> muscle fiber differentiation pathway | 18:05 |
| kanzure | anyway, nobody has actually confirmed that "breaking cell membranes means your muscles will grow!" | 18:05 |
| kanzure | it's just folk shit | 18:05 |
| kanzure | http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/bodybuilding/ | 18:05 |
| jmil | kanzure: what? people have shown that | 18:05 |
| jmil | scientifically | 18:06 |
| kanzure | show me the paper | 18:06 |
| jmil | damaged muscle stimulates a ton of new pathways | 18:06 |
| yashgaroth | if that worked, I could punch myself until I got abs | 18:06 |
| kanzure | "damaged muscles" | 18:06 |
| jmil | kanzure: lookup irina conboy | 18:06 |
| kanzure | yashgaroth: i volunteer you for the experiment ;) | 18:06 |
| yashgaroth | to punch myself in the abs until I get abs? sounds good | 18:06 |
| yashgaroth | I'd prefer gene transfer of follistatin fused to an Fc | 18:07 |
| nmz787 | or, if dexedrine stimulates the heart rate to increase, is that the same as cardio? | 18:08 |
| kanzure | i'm satisfied with the modern explanation of muscle contraction (myosin/actin and such) | 18:08 |
| kanzure | but not the damage theory.. | 18:08 |
| yashgaroth | it's the combination for sure | 18:08 |
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| kanzure | there's a very thorough muscle contraction explanation that works down to the molecular level | 18:08 |
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| yashgaroth | fuck man, I don't care how it works as long as we can manipulate it | 18:09 |
| kanzure | if you know how it works, you can cause the same things using other methods | 18:09 |
| yashgaroth | we don't necessarily need other methods, the current ones would work well | 18:10 |
| yashgaroth | and if they don't work, there's an easy way to find out | 18:10 |
| kanzure | "woul work well" - you're talking about our known-molecular-researchy-approaches, which i agee seem fine | 18:10 |
| kanzure | but | 18:10 |
| kanzure | i'm not prepared to say that's how exercise works | 18:11 |
| yashgaroth | oh, certainly | 18:11 |
| jmil | kanzure: injured muscle paper: 1.Conboy IM, Conboy MJ, Smythe GM, Rando TA. Notch-mediated restoration of regenerative potential to aged muscle. Science 2003 Nov.;302(5650):1575–1577. | 18:12 |
| jmil | notch signaling pathway | 18:12 |
| yashgaroth | but even if we discover how it works, that won't necessarily give us a circulating factor we can inject to cause the effect | 18:13 |
| nmz787 | isn't NOTCH inplicated in some cancer too? | 18:13 |
| jmil | notch is implicated in almost everything | 18:13 |
| jmil | lol | 18:13 |
| yashgaroth | don't worry, muscle doesn't get cancer :V | 18:13 |
| jmil | that's another reason i'm going to study it | 18:13 |
| jmil | yashgaroth: they are looking for the circulating factor | 18:14 |
| jmil | they recently did a old/young experiment and proved circulating factors restore the regenerative potential of muscle | 18:14 |
| kanzure | "regenerative potential" | 18:14 |
| jmil | they're not sure yet if its cells or some other factor | 18:14 |
| jmil | like a protein or metabolite | 18:14 |
| kanzure | aha, see... | 18:14 |
| jmil | they connected an old mouse to the bloodstream of a young mouse. crazy experiment. | 18:15 |
| Stee| | If you want to test low risk things on someone doing high level muscular work, gimme a poke :P | 18:15 |
| Stee| | I might volunteer | 18:15 |
| yashgaroth | haha low risk | 18:15 |
| jmil | lol | 18:15 |
| nmz787 | jmil: link/ref to the connected mouse paper? | 18:16 |
| nmz787 | regenerative centipede | 18:16 |
| nmz787 | ... | 18:16 |
| jmil | 1.Conboy IM, Conboy MJ, Wagers AJ, Girma ER, Weissman IL, Rando TA. Rejuvenation of aged progenitor cells by exposure to a young systemic environment. Nature 2005 Feb.;433(7027):760–764. | 18:16 |
| Stee| | I don't want to risk my muscles too much :P | 18:16 |
| jmil | crazy experiment | 18:16 |
| yashgaroth | you'd probably be risking your testicles | 18:17 |
| kanzure | Stee|: i'm very disappointed by how few transhumanists take anabolic steroids | 18:17 |
| yashgaroth | but I don't waaaaanna hang out in the bodybuilding.com forums | 18:18 |
| kanzure | some of the transhumanists are very much against steroids | 18:18 |
| kanzure | which is absurd.. | 18:18 |
| yashgaroth | haha what why | 18:18 |
| kanzure | i guess muscle doesn't matter that much in the scheme of things | 18:18 |
| kanzure | yashgaroth: because "DRUGS ARE DANGEROUS" | 18:18 |
| nmz787 | roid rage is absurd? | 18:18 |
| nmz787 | lol | 18:18 |
| kanzure | roid rage.. isn't that a D.A.R.E campaign | 18:18 |
| yashgaroth | oh jesus that's not a real thing | 18:18 |
| nmz787 | what??? | 18:18 |
| nmz787 | really? | 18:19 |
| yashgaroth | they lied to you buddy | 18:19 |
| kanzure | to keep you small :3 | 18:19 |
| Stee| | kanzure: I'd need some long term safety/efficacy papers | 18:19 |
| Stee| | *also a lot are illegal | 18:19 |
| nmz787 | i'm with Stee| | 18:19 |
| nmz787 | on the papers | 18:19 |
| kanzure | i'm p. sure i have some roid papers.. let's see | 18:19 |
| kanzure | nope. not uploaded at the moment.. hrm | 18:20 |
| nmz787 | on the illegality... I want to find a country that I can proudly conduct whatever research I want | 18:20 |
| kanzure | was looking through here: http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/bodybuilding/ | 18:20 |
| yashgaroth | so...china? | 18:20 |
| nmz787 | not china | 18:20 |
| kanzure | nmz787: there's a lot, but you won't exactly be able to "run across the street to get my pcr reagents refilled" | 18:20 |
| yashgaroth | good luck then | 18:20 |
| nmz787 | right | 18:20 |
| kanzure | here's some notes on roids i guess http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/bodybuilding/drugs.txt | 18:21 |
| kanzure | not very thorough | 18:21 |
| yashgaroth | admittedly they'd be a safer if they were legal, as with most drugs | 18:21 |
| kanzure | yashgaroth: read drugs.txt above | 18:21 |
| kanzure | it's not the best but it's a start, since you don't want to bother with bodybuilding.com ;) | 18:22 |
| Stee| | bb.com has some good stuff | 18:22 |
| kanzure | hah there's one called stanozolol | 18:22 |
| kanzure | stanozolololol | 18:22 |
| Stee| | anyway, a lot of this stuff is size, and not as much strength | 18:22 |
| kanzure | if you want strength you will use machines | 18:22 |
| delinquentme | kanzure, bodybuilding | 18:22 |
| Stee| | not really | 18:22 |
| delinquentme | ! angie varona | 18:22 |
| delinquentme | <3 | 18:23 |
| Stee| | if you want useful strength you use unsupported compound exercises | 18:23 |
| Stee| | and vary between high rep and low rep | 18:23 |
| Stee| | also speed work | 18:23 |
| Stee| | and bodyweight work | 18:23 |
| kanzure | yes but you're only going to bench 500-600 pounds max.. | 18:23 |
| kanzure | and that's at peak, peak physical fitness | 18:23 |
| Stee| | yes, but you can move it a hell of a lot faster | 18:23 |
| kanzure | well i should say beyond peak | 18:23 |
| Stee| | as Bruce Lee once said about a man much larger than him | 18:24 |
| Stee| | 'But can he use it as well as I can?' | 18:24 |
| kanzure | http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Progression_of_the_bench_press_world_record | 18:24 |
| kanzure | 2008 - "Ryan Kennelly presses 1075 lbs (488.64 kg)" | 18:24 |
| kanzure | hrm.. 1075 | 18:24 |
| kanzure | i was way off. maybe i am thinking dead lift | 18:24 |
| Stee| | no | 18:24 |
| Stee| | dead is heavier | 18:24 |
| Stee| | WR dead is like 1350 | 18:25 |
| kanzure | wtf. | 18:25 |
| yashgaroth | but then you blow out your anus | 18:25 |
| eudoxia | bwahahahah | 18:25 |
| Stee| | my buddy has the highest deadlift for his age/weightclass in NY state | 18:25 |
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| Stee| | I hang out with some competitive lifters :P | 18:25 |
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| Stee| | sorry, it's only 1100 | 18:25 |
| yashgaroth | good you can get me some roids then | 18:25 |
| kanzure | yeah | 18:25 |
| kanzure | damn | 18:25 |
| kanzure | hook a brother or two up | 18:25 |
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| Stee| | none of my buddies use roids, but I can find out what their pre-workout is | 18:26 |
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| kanzure | i'll pay for everyone in here | 18:26 |
| yashgaroth | no I will | 18:26 |
| kanzure | nope ask them for roids | 18:26 |
| Stee| | we're not bodybuilders >_> | 18:26 |
| kanzure | i also once offered to pay for noots for everyone in here | 18:26 |
| kanzure | but nobody took me up on that | 18:26 |
| Stee| | world record geared squat is 1300 | 18:26 |
| jmil | noots? | 18:26 |
| Stee| | nootropics | 18:27 |
| jmil | even if you take roids, you still have to work out to build | 18:27 |
| Stee| | hmm | 18:27 |
| jmil | they don't make your muscles build passively... | 18:27 |
| yashgaroth | not really | 18:27 |
| Stee| | my squat is only 350. | 18:27 |
| jmil | and they make your balls shrink | 18:27 |
| yashgaroth | lemme find that study, but groups on steroids or exercise were about equal in pure non-fat gain, ofc. both less than 'roids+exercise combined | 18:28 |
| nmz787 | they really make balls shrink? | 18:28 |
| kanzure | such nerds, comparing squat statistics | 18:28 |
| kanzure | nmz787: yes | 18:28 |
| Stee| | y'all never had a squat like this :P | 18:28 |
| nmz787 | hmm, I wonder if that decreases the pain from getting kicked there? | 18:28 |
| jmil | nope | 18:28 |
| jmil | ball kicking pain is due to involuntary muscle contraction | 18:29 |
| jmil | not nerve endings in the testicle | 18:29 |
| nmz787 | presentation slides on squatting vs sitting: http://www.slideshare.net/nmz787/different-ways-to-poop | 18:29 |
| kanzure | we're not talking about pooping -_- | 18:30 |
| kanzure | we're talking about master roshi http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/bodybuilding/roshi.jpg | 18:30 |
| nmz787 | slide 6 there is pretty interesting, but I don't think there were many facts to back it up | 18:30 |
| jmil | nmz787: ur nathan? | 18:30 |
| nmz787 | yeah | 18:31 |
| jmil | cool nice to meet u | 18:31 |
| jmil | i've seen ur posts on diybio | 18:31 |
| jmil | i'm jordan miller | 18:31 |
| kanzure | aren't you both on diybio | 18:31 |
| nmz787 | cool | 18:31 |
| kanzure | right.. there we go | 18:31 |
| jmil | lol | 18:31 |
| jmil | kanzure: is master roshi the future of hplus? | 18:32 |
| jmil | maybe with more hair on top | 18:32 |
| nmz787 | kanzue: roshi.jpg still poops (unless cartoons are exempt)... he'd better be squatting over the bowl, or he's likely to tear his colon | 18:32 |
| Stee| | It's actually easy to pitch transhumanism to weightlifters, I've found | 18:32 |
| jmil | lol | 18:32 |
| nmz787 | they seem like they're already into tracking themselves, so it makes sense | 18:32 |
| Stee| | we really are :P | 18:33 |
| Stee| | I've filled up multiple books with stats | 18:33 |
| nmz787 | jmil: do you think in china old rich men hook themselves up to children's blood systems, ala that mouse paper? | 18:34 |
| kanzure | Stee|: sure.. i've also found that karate, kung fu and other martial artists are susceptible to transhumanist goals | 18:34 |
| jmil | omg. they probably haven't seen the paper yet | 18:34 |
| jmil | thankfully | 18:35 |
| yashgaroth | eh they probably have | 18:35 |
| Stee| | kanzure: I'm thinking of trying out jeet kun do or BJJ | 18:36 |
| kanzure | "the way of the intercepting fist" | 18:36 |
| kanzure | oh, that's jeet kun do | 18:37 |
| kanzure | well ok. | 18:37 |
| Stee| | Bruce Lee would be a transhuman today :P | 18:37 |
| Stee| | *ist | 18:37 |
| delinquentme | Stee|, he was better than human THEN | 18:37 |
| Stee| | I love his book | 18:39 |
| kanzure | Stee|: what's that brazilian style | 18:42 |
| kanzure | bukaido? | 18:42 |
| Stee| | capoeira | 18:46 |
| Stee| | I've done it | 18:46 |
| kanzure | no.. no.. there's one from brazil that also begins with b | 18:48 |
| kanzure | oh well | 18:48 |
| kanzure | wtf is capoeira.. what is this | 18:51 |
| kanzure | http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6H0D8VaIli0&feature=related | 18:51 |
| yashgaroth | they're breakdance fighting! | 18:51 |
| kanzure | breakdance fighting would be much more interesting with weapons | 18:52 |
| Stee| | escrima | 18:58 |
| Stee| | any hplusroadmappers in dc that you know of kanz? | 19:22 |
| kanzure | jigsaw | 19:23 |
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| kanzure | diybio-washington | 19:23 |
| kanzure | yashgaroth: don't you have a list for that area? | 19:23 |
| kanzure | it might be more recent than mine | 19:24 |
| yashgaroth | seattle, washington | 19:28 |
| yashgaroth | they're defunct anyway | 19:28 |
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| kanzure | oh right, seattle | 19:37 |
| kanzure | nevermind | 19:37 |
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| kanzure | "yes this is dog" kung fu style | 19:44 |
| kanzure | http://i2.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/newsfeed/000/205/695/313066_234663409931866_230500817014792_667477_1471450191_n.jpg | 19:44 |
| bkero | oh hey hplus | 20:13 |
| kanzure | hi bkero | 20:18 |
| bkero | What's crackin'? | 20:18 |
| kanzure | pokemoning | 20:20 |
| bkero | definitely crack | 20:22 |
| bkero | I'm at dorkbotpdx 0x08 meeting, talking about using a bus pirate to hax i2c | 20:22 |
| * Mokbortolan_ uses exogenous anandamide! It's super effective! | 20:27 | |
| kanzure | Mokbortolan_: i'm still working on the disassembly | 20:27 |
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| Mokbortolan_ | you taking apart pokemon? | 20:28 |
| kanzure | Mokbortolan_: https://bitbucket.org/kanzure/pokered/raw/571429e704dc/main.asm | 20:29 |
| kanzure | http://code.google.com/p/homecmos/ | 20:29 |
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| gene_hacker | kanzure didn't you have a page on make transistors at one point? | 20:31 |
| kanzure | yes.. uh let me find it | 20:32 |
| kanzure | gene_hacker: http://heybryan.org/alternate_transistors.html | 20:32 |
| gene_hacker | trying to find a way to make transistors for a self-replicating lunar factory | 20:32 |
| gene_hacker | that nanocrystal method sounded nice, but it requires liquid... | 20:33 |
| gene_hacker | kanzure got any methods to make transistors easily in UHV? | 20:36 |
| Mokbortolan_ | electrodeposition! | 20:38 |
| Mokbortolan_ | you could probably condense a gas onto a substrate | 20:39 |
| gene_hacker | can't do electrodeposition | 20:39 |
| gene_hacker | I'm on the moon and water is expensive | 20:40 |
| Mokbortolan_ | you couldn't make an ion gun out of something? | 20:40 |
| Mokbortolan_ | well, it's expensive but not impossible | 20:40 |
| gene_hacker | that's what I'm thinking | 20:40 |
| Mokbortolan_ | there's water in regolith anyway | 20:40 |
| gene_hacker | not that much | 20:40 |
| kanzure | maybe an ion beam method | 20:41 |
| kanzure | fib? | 20:41 |
| Mokbortolan_ | I like one possible source for that water | 20:41 |
| gene_hacker | the problem I'm having is making the silicon in general | 20:41 |
| gene_hacker | apparently you need graphite crucibles for the CZ process | 20:41 |
| kanzure | didn't freitas come up with a method | 20:41 |
| Mokbortolan_ | hydrogen ions slamming into the oxygen-rich regolith | 20:41 |
| kanzure | cz pulling can be difficult, i've heard | 20:41 |
| gene_hacker | FIB might work | 20:41 |
| gene_hacker | yeah | 20:41 |
| Mokbortolan_ | yeah | 20:41 |
| Mokbortolan_ | you can just say you did it | 20:42 |
| Mokbortolan_ | but not really | 20:42 |
| gene_hacker | well CZ process would be pretty handy | 20:42 |
| gene_hacker | especially if you could carry out the CZ process on illmenite | 20:43 |
| gene_hacker | a common lunar mineral which is a semiconductor | 20:43 |
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| kanzure | i don't get it | 22:04 |
| kanzure | https://github.com/twitter/time_constants/blob/master/lib/time_constants.rb | 22:04 |
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| kanzure | shit | 22:38 |
| kanzure | http://www.ti.com/ww/en/analog/mems/dlplightcommander/index.shtml?DCMP=DLP_Light_Commander&HQS=Other+OT+dlplightcommander | 22:38 |
| kanzure | i want one | 22:38 |
| kanzure | nmz787 says it's only $3000-$4000 for the dev kit | 22:38 |
| kanzure | UV version http://www.ti.com/tool/dlpd4x00kit | 22:39 |
| kanzure | http://www.dlinnovations.com/index.php?page=purchasing | 22:41 |
| kanzure | pico projector is ~$200 | 22:41 |
| kanzure | http://www.digikey.com/product-highlights/us/en/texas-instruments-pico/688 | 22:42 |
| Stee| | I've been thinking of building a sixthsense | 22:42 |
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| kanzure | http://www.ti.com/analog/docs/memsmidlevel.tsp?sectionId=622&tabId=2447 | 23:26 |
| kanzure | ^product comparison | 23:26 |
| Stee| | what are you trying to make? | 23:27 |
| kanzure | $8000 for the UV version? ehh | 23:27 |
| kanzure | Stee|: photolithography for DNA synthesis | 23:28 |
| Stee| | ah | 23:28 |
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| --- Log closed Tue Jan 31 00:00:40 2012 | ||
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