| --- Log opened Tue Apr 03 00:00:19 2012 | ||
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| lichen | https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6JNyUVSoiAE | 02:21 |
|---|---|---|
| diginet | sigh, I miss the old Gene Raym now he's just a racist jerk | 02:25 |
| lichen | oh? | 02:25 |
| diginet | yeah read timecube, he just rants about transracial relationships or something | 02:26 |
| lichen | oh that shit | 02:26 |
| lichen | lol | 02:26 |
| diginet | yeah | 02:26 |
| lichen | FOUR SIDES | 02:26 |
| lichen | FOUR RACES | 02:26 |
| lichen | blah blah blah | 02:26 |
| diginet | I prefer truthism.com or .net, whichever it is | 02:26 |
| diginet | it's like the grand unified theory of conspiracy theories | 02:27 |
| lichen | hehe | 02:27 |
| lichen | reminds me of the first time i played through deus ex | 02:27 |
| lichen | just kept cramming more and more conspiracy theories in | 02:27 |
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| kanzure | nmz787: yo | 04:08 |
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| fenn | that n.clavipes spider looks very familiar: http://fennetic.net/irc/IMG_5304.JPG | 04:26 |
| fenn | neat, i always wanted to mess around with gnuradio but didn't want to mess around with the ADC problem, but it seems RTL-SDR blows that problem away | 04:33 |
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| superkuh | Yeah. I have the latest gnuradio git with the rtl block compiled and two E4k tuner devices on the way. | 05:30 |
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| fenn | is there anything similar in the GHz range? is this even possible? | 05:57 |
| fenn | i'm more interested in just finding sources of radio emissions | 05:58 |
| fenn | if i need protocol-specific hardware to actually read it, that's fine | 05:59 |
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| fenn | DVB-T means cable television? or am i on the wrong track | 06:01 |
| fenn | "terrestrial television transmissions" is sort of confusing wordage | 06:02 |
| fenn | all these technical words get used sloppily in the TV realm | 06:04 |
| superkuh | I know nothing of the standards or intended uses of the hardware. I just saw the tuning range and became excited. Join ##rtlsdr . | 06:17 |
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| fenn | well produced video about layered construction techniques for micro UAV http://blog.ponoko.com/2012/02/22/mass-produced-microbots/ | 07:55 |
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| fenn | "Methane-fueled thin film micro-solid oxide fuel cells with nanoporous palladium anodes" methanol seems like a better choice for bees | 08:08 |
| fenn | even better, glucose | 08:09 |
| fenn | i'd expect someone's already got a working glucose->H2 bacteria-based converter | 08:10 |
| ParahSailin | glucose to methane is a lot easier | 08:26 |
| _Sketch_ | hey fenn, thanks for the info, | 08:27 |
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| fenn | http://www.singularityweblog.com/implants-or-dentures-how-about-regrowing-your-own-teeth/ | 08:42 |
| fenn | _Sketch_: peter jansen on thetricorderproject.org may be releasing a new thermal camera technology later this year, check back in a few months | 08:43 |
| fenn | er, tricorderproject.org | 08:43 |
| kanzure | fenn: hi | 08:47 |
| delinquentme | KANZURE | 08:49 |
| delinquentme | WHUT CAN WE PITCH | 08:49 |
| delinquentme | NO MAEK DELAY | 08:49 |
| kanzure | what? | 08:49 |
| kanzure | we can pitch whatever we want? | 08:49 |
| fenn | heh those teeth are made of poly caprolactone (aka shapelock) | 08:50 |
| delinquentme | nah but im asking whats exitable in 2 years | 08:51 |
| delinquentme | y comb 150g | 08:51 |
| delinquentme | thatd feed a few people | 08:51 |
| delinquentme | you get the CSO title | 08:51 |
| delinquentme | DEAL? | 08:51 |
| kanzure | ycombinator will not really take on an open source hardware/biotech project | 08:51 |
| delinquentme | k | 08:51 |
| delinquentme | specifically. why | 08:52 |
| kanzure | because that's not what they are interested in | 08:52 |
| delinquentme | lemnos | 08:52 |
| fenn | ycombinator doesn't really care about projects (or so they say) | 08:52 |
| kanzure | fenn: name one team that got in without a project | 08:52 |
| delinquentme | register with both | 08:52 |
| delinquentme | http://ycombinator.com/noidea.html kanzure | 08:52 |
| kanzure | i know that page exists, but again.. name ne team that got in without an idea | 08:53 |
| kanzure | *one | 08:53 |
| delinquentme | listen | 08:53 |
| delinquentme | they care about $$ | 08:53 |
| delinquentme | that is it | 08:53 |
| delinquentme | fuck the high science | 08:53 |
| delinquentme | is what im saying | 08:53 |
| delinquentme | build shit that makes greenbacks | 08:53 |
| kanzure | oh is it that simple? | 08:53 |
| delinquentme | PAUSE I NEED TO PEE | 08:53 |
| delinquentme | BRB | 08:53 |
| delinquentme | yes bc its engineering and not research | 08:54 |
| kanzure | i wasn't aware you're able to predict what will give you money | 08:54 |
| * ybit waves hi | 08:54 | |
| fenn | we could make a soft drink that extends periods between having to urinate | 08:54 |
| ybit | hi fenn | 08:55 |
| kanzure | antidiuretic? | 08:55 |
| fenn | hello | 08:55 |
| fenn | no, just a bladder-numbing agent | 08:55 |
| * _Sketch_ laughs | 08:56 | |
| delinquentme | been done its called orbitz http://media.egotvonline.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/01/Orbitz-soft-Drink.jpg | 08:56 |
| delinquentme | it has urine absorbing balls | 08:56 |
| kanzure | i just don't see how to realistically convince ycombinator to fund open source hardware projects | 08:56 |
| kanzure | hell, upverter isn't even open source | 08:56 |
| delinquentme | ... | 08:56 |
| kanzure | and scienceexchange isn't | 08:56 |
| delinquentme | kanzure, you're missing the point | 08:56 |
| delinquentme | its not "open source" | 08:56 |
| delinquentme | i mean its not that they DONT func open source.. | 08:57 |
| ybit | any of you want to work for masten? | 08:57 |
| ybit | they need a programmer | 08:57 |
| delinquentme | you're assuming false negatives | 08:57 |
| _Sketch_ | Okay, Kindles are only $99. How much for a 8x8 pad of 2-color eink? | 08:57 |
| ybit | it's proprietary stuff, but it's interesting work | 08:57 |
| kanzure | ybit: what's the gig? | 08:57 |
| kanzure | delinquentme: not really. i've sent in many applications that i've spent >20 hours working on (each) | 08:57 |
| kanzure | delinquentme: i got to the final round once. was nice.. | 08:57 |
| fenn | ybit: programming what? | 08:57 |
| ybit | you real-time flight data from the vehicles and can send commands to the vehicles | 08:57 |
| kanzure | what's the pay? | 08:57 |
| delinquentme | kanzure, soooo lets do it again? | 08:58 |
| ybit | robotic rockets | 08:58 |
| ybit | kanzure: no clue | 08:58 |
| delinquentme | O_o;;; | 08:58 |
| kanzure | delinquentme: i still don't know what idea you're pitching me | 08:58 |
| delinquentme | robotic rockets | 08:58 |
| ybit | but you get a free view of the night sky | 08:58 |
| delinquentme | kanzure, im saying something, anything | 08:58 |
| delinquentme | ybit what language | 08:58 |
| ybit | in all its mojave glory | 08:58 |
| fenn | _Sketch_: $99, you can't buy the raw material or even a component (last i checked) | 08:58 |
| ybit | any | 08:58 |
| delinquentme | so php ybit | 08:58 |
| ybit | do it! | 08:58 |
| * delinquentme lulz | 08:58 | |
| ybit | honestly, that's what they told me | 08:58 |
| kanzure | delinquentme: ok so be smart for a second. why would they fund you if you have no way to make money? | 08:59 |
| delinquentme | kanzure, they've got enough $ to keep us busy | 08:59 |
| delinquentme | kanzure, why is open source == non-monetary? | 08:59 |
| kanzure | what? who the fuck said that? | 08:59 |
| delinquentme | you did | 08:59 |
| _Sketch_ | fenn: Damn! | 08:59 |
| kanzure | no. i said THEY think that | 08:59 |
| kanzure | fuck you | 08:59 |
| kanzure | stop putting words into my mouth | 08:59 |
| delinquentme | why would they fund you if you have no way to make money? | 08:59 |
| kanzure | yes, that too | 08:59 |
| kanzure | right now you're just saying "Yo, YC, give me some money so I can build some hardware, kthx" | 09:00 |
| delinquentme | so listen we do X | 09:00 |
| delinquentme | and open source P(x) | 09:00 |
| delinquentme | process of x | 09:00 |
| _Sketch_ | fenn: Why can't we get cool stuff? :/ | 09:00 |
| delinquentme | im saying if you're building shit and you've got clients | 09:00 |
| kanzure | what clients | 09:00 |
| ybit | also startupology is looking to send someone to the mojave desert full-time | 09:01 |
| delinquentme | those utterly impossible ones to get | 09:01 |
| ybit | for OSE stuff | 09:01 |
| delinquentme | kanzure, http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S095816690900144X << can u get me dis? | 09:04 |
| ybit | if anyone's interested in either of these, send me an email and i'll forward you the appropriate info (heathmatlock@gmail.com) | 09:04 |
| kanzure | ybit: sure.. email it over | 09:04 |
| ybit | k | 09:05 |
| kanzure | delinquentme: maybe you should submit the open source antibody kit idea for ball-busting big pharma (rare blood disease drugs) | 09:07 |
| delinquentme | ??? | 09:08 |
| kanzure | see what they say | 09:08 |
| delinquentme | im not sure I know what you're talking about? | 09:08 |
| kanzure | ycombinator applications -_- | 09:09 |
| delinquentme | kanzure, the open source antibody kit | 09:09 |
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| delinquentme | it sounds like research required | 09:09 |
| kanzure | kit of hardware to make antibodies | 09:09 |
| kanzure | no making antibodies does not require research | 09:10 |
| delinquentme | you're saying lets make that | 09:10 |
| kanzure | antibodies are a known thing | 09:10 |
| kanzure | no | 09:10 |
| kanzure | i am saying you should write that into the application and test whether or not they will accept you | 09:10 |
| fenn | consider ycombinator's perspective, that they actually don't have the expertise to judge whether something is important/needed/feasible | 09:10 |
| delinquentme | yes so it needs to be simple | 09:11 |
| kanzure | if they do accept you on the "no idea" track, they will probably pick a market for you and just give you 12 of their ideas, then tell you to come back in a week with an implementation of one of them | 09:11 |
| delinquentme | we have income .. we need to scale X process to up income | 09:11 |
| delinquentme | give us money to do this | 09:11 |
| kanzure | we don't have inome | 09:11 |
| kanzure | *income | 09:11 |
| kanzure | what the hell man | 09:11 |
| delinquentme | ... | 09:11 |
| delinquentme | no shit | 09:11 |
| kanzure | so why would you lie about it | 09:11 |
| delinquentme | 1) decide to do something | 09:11 |
| delinquentme | 2) do it | 09:11 |
| kanzure | that doesn't mean there will be paying customers just because #2 | 09:11 |
| delinquentme | 3) figure out what needs scaled | 09:11 |
| fenn | sounds like a bastardization of feynman's algorithm | 09:12 |
| kanzure | the world has absolutely zero obligation to pay you for the work that you want to be doing | 09:12 |
| fenn | (originally: 1) define the problem, 2) solve the problem) | 09:12 |
| delinquentme | kanzure, but you sure as shit wont get paying customers without it | 09:12 |
| kanzure | umm | 09:12 |
| kanzure | you can be smarter about it and find the customers first | 09:12 |
| kanzure | this is what business is | 09:12 |
| kanzure | you find customers and figure out what they need and how much they would pay for this problem to go away | 09:12 |
| delinquentme | sure thats one way | 09:13 |
| delinquentme | can you get me that paper kanzure | 09:13 |
| delinquentme | plz | 09:13 |
| delinquentme | decellularizing pig kidneys would be cheap as fuck | 09:13 |
| delinquentme | and that shit is implant acceptable | 09:13 |
| fenn | good luck with the FDA | 09:13 |
| kanzure | just making random things, and then praying that there are customers, is not a good business model | 09:13 |
| delinquentme | it seems like that could make $$$ but I need to figure out the specifics | 09:13 |
| delinquentme | fenn, we already implant pig hearts | 09:14 |
| fenn | after zillions of dollars spent in clinical trials and red tape | 09:14 |
| delinquentme | then we fucking sell to mexioc | 09:14 |
| delinquentme | mexico | 09:14 |
| delinquentme | next issue | 09:14 |
| delinquentme | pesos or rupees | 09:14 |
| delinquentme | im not a banker im not worried about arbitrage | 09:14 |
| kanzure | ok. do you know anyone in mexico who will pay for a pig heart? | 09:14 |
| delinquentme | atiempo no | 09:15 |
| delinquentme | kanzure, how many questions do you want to ask me | 09:15 |
| delinquentme | you know i dont currently have all the answers | 09:15 |
| delinquentme | soooo | 09:15 |
| fenn | you could sell novelty two-headed dogs | 09:15 |
| kanzure | it's not my job to fix your broken ideas man :( | 09:15 |
| kanzure | i'm just trying to help you out | 09:15 |
| delinquentme | fenn, we could also engineer eternal puppies | 09:15 |
| kanzure | i think applying to ycombinator is a good idea | 09:16 |
| delinquentme | agreed | 09:16 |
| delinquentme | lemme verify these hearts | 09:16 |
| kanzure | i think applying to ycombinator with something they want is an even better idea | 09:16 |
| delinquentme | gut on a chip | 09:16 |
| kanzure | and what they want is a business. | 09:16 |
| delinquentme | correct | 09:16 |
| delinquentme | fucking agreed to hell | 09:16 |
| delinquentme | thats what I want | 09:16 |
| kanzure | not "I don't know any customers" | 09:16 |
| delinquentme | yeah true | 09:16 |
| delinquentme | but before customers nedsz ideah | 09:17 |
| kanzure | ok. so pig hearts are a bad idea then. | 09:17 |
| kanzure | no | 09:17 |
| delinquentme | plez | 09:17 |
| delinquentme | paper | 09:17 |
| fenn | i'm sort of divided on this issue in general; people don't really know what they want until you stick it under their nose | 09:17 |
| delinquentme | http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S095816690900144X | 09:17 |
| delinquentme | fenn, if I asked the customer what they wanted they'd have said "a faster horse" | 09:18 |
| delinquentme | but this is masturbation | 09:18 |
| kanzure | a car is a faster horse except it eats gas | 09:18 |
| delinquentme | we know full well whats valuable here | 09:18 |
| kanzure | no | 09:18 |
| kanzure | we know what's valuable to /us/ | 09:18 |
| delinquentme | no kanzure we do | 09:18 |
| kanzure | not what's valuable to the people with money | 09:18 |
| delinquentme | yes and anythign which starts to smell like something like organ replacement or regen medicine | 09:18 |
| kanzure | you have to go ask them | 09:18 |
| delinquentme | is worth shitloads | 09:19 |
| delinquentme | fUCKKK | 09:19 |
| delinquentme | can u get that paper | 09:19 |
| delinquentme | do i need to beg elsewhere | 09:19 |
| kanzure | ah well the biotech VCs in general won't fund you unless your team of 5 has 12 PhDs | 09:19 |
| delinquentme | ignoring ^ | 09:19 |
| delinquentme | thats a shitty defeatist view | 09:19 |
| kanzure | have you ever, ever pitched to all the biotech VC groups? | 09:20 |
| kanzure | fuck funding anyway | 09:20 |
| kanzure | what is your actual idea and how much money do you need | 09:20 |
| delinquentme | kanzure, my idea is get 3 or 4 kids from in here who want to work on something related to regen medicine | 09:21 |
| delinquentme | that we think we can deliver on in 1 year | 09:21 |
| delinquentme | and do that | 09:21 |
| kanzure | ok. why not work on the microfluidics project instead? | 09:21 |
| delinquentme | the oligos? | 09:22 |
| kanzure | oligo and gene synthesis | 09:22 |
| delinquentme | no totally do that | 09:22 |
| delinquentme | but I dont think i fit in that project | 09:22 |
| kanzure | why? | 09:22 |
| delinquentme | so if thats what you guys want to do you should do it | 09:22 |
| delinquentme | its not my skillset? | 09:22 |
| delinquentme | like i could program and draft | 09:22 |
| kanzure | but regenerative medicine is? | 09:23 |
| delinquentme | ahah | 09:23 |
| delinquentme | i mean if im building bioreactors to pump detergent .. thats not hard | 09:23 |
| kanzure | but yeah, drafting is useful | 09:23 |
| delinquentme | and that is regen medicine | 09:23 |
| kanzure | and clearly there's a need for software | 09:23 |
| delinquentme | can I get that material again? | 09:24 |
| delinquentme | like the Powerpoint | 09:24 |
| kanzure | http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/nucleic/su-slides.pdf | 09:24 |
| kanzure | fenn: what's the current status on that anyway? | 09:31 |
| delinquentme | gut on a chip http://spectrum.ieee.org/tech-talk/biomedical/devices/researchers-build-gut-on-a-chip | 09:31 |
| kanzure | are we waiting until we figure out some unsolved problem? | 09:31 |
| kanzure | or should we start building the mini laser cutter | 09:31 |
| kanzure | nmz787: thoughts? | 09:32 |
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| fenn | nobody's raised any objections about keeping it at langton | 09:33 |
| nmz787 | for SU? | 09:33 |
| kanzure | fenn: reeeaalllyyy | 09:33 |
| kanzure | nmz787: no for just building this stuff | 09:35 |
| delinquentme | xenotransplantation of porcine valves | 09:37 |
| nmz787 | basically we need to find a gantry base, or sit down and find all the parts we want | 09:37 |
| delinquentme | To date, pig skin and pig valves have been used in human transplants, but not entire organs. | 09:37 |
| delinquentme | bingo | 09:37 |
| kanzure | nmz787: i thought fenn suggested a slide stage | 09:38 |
| delinquentme | you know how many pig hearts are around? | 09:38 |
| nmz787 | ahh | 09:38 |
| nmz787 | right | 09:38 |
| kanzure | are you against the slide stage plan | 09:38 |
| delinquentme | do you know how cheap that shit it | 09:38 |
| nmz787 | kanzure: nah, easier but prob higher price | 09:38 |
| nmz787 | kanzure: the prob is still there, we need to find a stage | 09:39 |
| kanzure | on the other hand... >6 inches of travel with a gantry and 1 micron resolution would be totally rad | 09:39 |
| nmz787 | making a gantry for micron res could be tricky too, the rails have to be parallel and square | 09:41 |
| nmz787 | if we screw that up, anomalies could creep into cut pieces | 09:41 |
| delinquentme | didnt we have someone who was an expert in here in growing cell structures? kanzure | 09:46 |
| delinquentme | like someone who was at a research institute? | 09:46 |
| kanzure | delinquentme: yes | 09:47 |
| kanzure | jmil.. | 09:47 |
| delinquentme | kanz nmz787 you guys are cutting the oligos by laser? | 09:47 |
| delinquentme | not aqui huh | 09:47 |
| kanzure | no we are not cutting oligos by laser | 09:47 |
| nmz787 | cutting silicone | 09:48 |
| nmz787 | for which to synthesize oligos in | 09:48 |
| delinquentme | ah | 09:48 |
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| delinquentme | i told you about the micron resolution linear magnetic encoder right | 09:48 |
| delinquentme | but its *magnetized* | 09:49 |
| delinquentme | but you can shield it | 09:49 |
| nmz787 | no | 09:49 |
| nmz787 | tell us more | 09:49 |
| nmz787 | i dont think magnetics matter during cutting | 09:50 |
| fenn | LVDS is a pretty common position sensing approach | 09:50 |
| fenn | LVDT* | 09:50 |
| nmz787 | low voltage differential signalling? | 09:50 |
| nmz787 | oh, what is that? | 09:50 |
| fenn | linear variable differential transformer http://www.rdpe.com/displacement/lvdt/lvdt-principles.htm | 09:51 |
| delinquentme | nmz787, http://store.makerbot.com/magnetic-linear-encoder-v1-2-kit.html | 09:51 |
| fenn | you can stack up ball bearings in a tube to use as the "ruler" | 09:51 |
| delinquentme | its bloody brilliant and I looked into the chip | 09:51 |
| delinquentme | you can shield it with pretty simple strips of iron | 09:51 |
| delinquentme | but if you only need 1 you're golden | 09:52 |
| delinquentme | and 50 bucks for 15 micron res? | 09:52 |
| delinquentme | yeah thats awesome | 09:52 |
| nmz787 | but then you depend on the bearing's being manufactured to the tolerances you want | 09:52 |
| fenn | i thought that was a rotary encoder, how would it work as a linear encoder? | 09:52 |
| fenn | also why not just use an optical encoder? | 09:53 |
| diginet | Gentlemen, I had an epiphany last night: a way CVD monocrystal diamonds might be feasible | 09:53 |
| fenn | catalysts? | 09:54 |
| diginet | well yes, I already knew that catalysts can create monocrystals, it's just they're expensive, you have to use platinoids metals | 09:54 |
| diginet | BUT, then I remembered, what is a good source of them? Catalytic converters | 09:54 |
| fenn | why is that expensive? you don't need very much | 09:54 |
| diginet | can one but sub miligram quantities of platinum? | 09:55 |
| diginet | *buy | 09:55 |
| fenn | http://www.amazon.com/Platinum-Wire-Gauge-99-9-6-inches/dp/B004NJL72O | 09:56 |
| fenn | huh you can even buy 2 inches for $23 | 09:57 |
| fenn | ok now wrap that wire around your tungsten heating element, put into sputtering chamber, voila | 09:58 |
| delinquentme | fenn, theres both a rotary and linear | 09:58 |
| diginet | well, I'm using a more advanced process than hot filament | 09:58 |
| diginet | but, wow, that's a good deal | 09:58 |
| diginet | thanks fenn | 09:58 |
| delinquentme | diginet, what are you working on? | 09:58 |
| diginet | well, right now spider silk, but I have a more long term goal of diamond semiconductors (monocrystal diamond is necessary for this) | 09:59 |
| diginet | if you coat the substrate with a platinoid metal, one can grow monocrystal diamond heteroepitaxilly | 10:00 |
| delinquentme | you're building spider silk? | 10:00 |
| diginet | that's the goal, yes, but I'm quite a ways from there | 10:01 |
| diginet | the full gene for the major ampullate/dragline silk of N. Clavipes (the best readily available species) has not been fully sequenced | 10:02 |
| delinquentme | biohack spiders for modified silk | 10:04 |
| delinquentme | ? | 10:04 |
| diginet | I plan on using SF9 cells, so then I'll need to see if any codon optimization is necessary, then insert the gene into the cells, and harvest the protein (well, there's actually two different ones). Then I'll need to build an artificial spinneret, but I think that's comparitively easier | 10:04 |
| diginet | they don't produce nearly enough | 10:04 |
| diginet | and forcible silking isn't possible | 10:04 |
| diginet | there is one known spider silk textile in the world, it's like 8 x 5 ft or something, it took hundreds of people 4 years and 1.8 mil spiders to get the required silk | 10:05 |
| delinquentme | diginet, that seems like ... cut them open poke around .. see what stimulates silk production | 10:05 |
| delinquentme | and poke that alot | 10:05 |
| diginet | obviously, the throughput is way too low | 10:05 |
| diginet | doesn't work like that I'm afraid | 10:05 |
| delinquentme | really? | 10:05 |
| diginet | the forming of the fiber is relatively simple anyway | 10:05 |
| diginet | you can just use an electrospinning apparatus | 10:06 |
| diginet | the hard part is getting good quality precursors, the genes are highly repetitive, and tend to be truncated when produced by E. Coli (thus the need for a eukaryotic host) | 10:06 |
| diginet | the natural proteins average around 300-320 kDa, whereas the highest quality ones ever made from E. Coli were 250 or so, but the average seems to be more like 50-60 | 10:07 |
| diginet | this significantly limits the mechanical properties of the silk | 10:07 |
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| kanzure | hi deep-fried-art | 10:17 |
| kanzure | have you found a project yet? | 10:17 |
| deep-fried-art | hey | 10:17 |
| deep-fried-art | not yet, I'm swamped with stuff that I actually have to do | 10:17 |
| deep-fried-art | just reading when I get the chance | 10:17 |
| kanzure | you work for infosec? | 10:18 |
| deep-fried-art | yea, its just an internship... saw you on linkedin lol | 10:18 |
| delinquentme | so the skin gun... | 10:18 |
| deep-fried-art | kanzure: do you have any projects in mind? | 10:25 |
| delinquentme | kanzure, whats the cost on prototing the oligo synthesizer | 10:25 |
| delinquentme | im about to talk w one of the lemnos dudes | 10:25 |
| kanzure | delinquentme: i estimate <$30k at the moment | 10:29 |
| kanzure | deep-fried-art: depends on what you want to be doing.. and if you have any money i guess | 10:29 |
| deep-fried-art | I'm starving student status atm | 10:32 |
| deep-fried-art | But I plan on picking up a used cell biology textbook at some point... any recommendations? | 10:34 |
| delinquentme | kanzure, are the costs in the powerpoint? | 10:34 |
| nmz787 | delinquentme: they should be | 10:35 |
| delinquentme | k | 10:36 |
| kanzure | deep-fried-art: "molecular biology of the cell" | 10:37 |
| nmz787 | deep-fried-art "molecular biology of the gene" | 10:38 |
| nmz787 | :P | 10:38 |
| deep-fried-art | nice, I was on the right track :p | 10:39 |
| nmz787 | not sure how to compare the two books | 10:39 |
| kanzure | maybe you should just use wikipedia | 10:39 |
| nmz787 | i have the 'gene' one... its also available as a pdf if you search | 10:39 |
| kanzure | http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Molecular_biology | 10:40 |
| kanzure | http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_molecular_biology | 10:40 |
| deep-fried-art | anyone ever read 'the selfish gene'? | 10:42 |
| kanzure | no nobody has ever read dawkins | 10:43 |
| deep-fried-art | :p | 10:44 |
| nmz787 | nope | 10:47 |
| delinquentme | isnt there a way to create cheap growth medium? | 10:50 |
| delinquentme | like jello + ground up pig or something | 10:50 |
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| kanzure | delinquentme: sure.. there's been lots of stuff on the diybio group about cheap agar and cheap medium | 10:53 |
| kanzure | by cheap i mean ghetto | 10:53 |
| delinquentme | yeah haha | 10:53 |
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| delinquentme | we're speaking the same language | 10:54 |
| delinquentme | mamallian cells? | 10:54 |
| kanzure | mammalian cell culture is usually harder and requires more precise ingredients iirc | 10:55 |
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| delinquentme | phosphoramidite == phos-phor-ami-dite | 10:58 |
| delinquentme | right? | 10:58 |
| kanzure | possibly.. it might be phos-phor-ama-dite | 11:00 |
| kanzure | delinquentme: http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/DNA/synthesis.html | 11:00 |
| diginet | can't you just use food grade agar? It's super cheap, and available in whole food, or (better yet) east asian grocery stores | 11:01 |
| diginet | *whole foods | 11:01 |
| fenn | you have to add culture medium of some kind to the agar | 11:03 |
| fenn | the reason to use agar in the first place is that bacteria can't digest it | 11:03 |
| diginet | well, I know you have to add nutrients, but I mean is there any fundamental difference between the agar one buys industrially versus at a grocery store? | 11:05 |
| delinquentme | there is grocery store agar? | 11:08 |
| delinquentme | diginet, ^ | 11:11 |
| delinquentme | kanzure, thats the synthesis process? | 11:12 |
| kanzure | that's some of the chemistry involved yeah | 11:12 |
| kanzure | yes there is some agar available in grocery stores | 11:12 |
| diginet | Agar is very commonly used in Asian cooking, especially in Japan and Vietnam. It's also commonly used as a vegetarian friendly surrogate for gelatin | 11:12 |
| delinquentme | you're not talking tofu right | 11:13 |
| diginet | no, tofu is bean curd | 11:13 |
| diginet | agar is an extract of seaweed | 11:13 |
| delinquentme | whats it labeled as? | 11:13 |
| diginet | generally "agar agar" or just "agar" the name comes from Malay, I don't remember why, but the reduplification has some meaning in that language | 11:14 |
| deep-fried-art | yum... https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/4/44/Youkan_mizuyoukan.jpg | 11:14 |
| diginet | Whole foods has it, but it's expensive, I'd go for the powder, but try an easy asian grocery story, much cheaper | 11:14 |
| diginet | deep-fried-art, that looks delicious | 11:15 |
| diginet | I made some mango "jell-o" a few weeks ago with agar | 11:15 |
| diginet | it was good | 11:15 |
| delinquentme | kanzure, TLDR on this is "mix chemicals on the chip" | 11:16 |
| diginet | it's kind of hard to work though | 11:16 |
| delinquentme | i plan on reading it but i just want to make sure thats the overview | 11:16 |
| diginet | *work with | 11:16 |
| deep-fried-art | never had it, that I know of | 11:16 |
| kanzure | delinquentme: i don't understand. what do you want? | 11:17 |
| diginet | delinquentme, I can't say for certain, but it's probably very similar to how one would make jello, mix the nutrients with the agar, and let it set | 11:17 |
| diginet | if you look on youtube, there's a few videos that describe the process | 11:18 |
| delinquentme | kanzure, does the entire synthesis process happen on the chip | 11:18 |
| diginet | one cool part of agar, is that, unlike gelatin, you can melt it and start over if the consistency isn't right | 11:18 |
| kanzure | delinquentme: yes | 11:18 |
| delinquentme | for example if I want to add a C to the current chain .. im simply pumping in some volume of liquids and C nucleotides | 11:19 |
| kanzure | sort of.. it's a multi-step process of washing, capping, adding in the nucleotide you want, decapping, washing... repeating. etc. | 11:20 |
| delinquentme | ah ok | 11:21 |
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| kanzure | hi nmz787 | 11:24 |
| nmz787 | blah | 11:24 |
| nmz787 | hi | 11:24 |
| nmz787 | working on sql homework | 11:25 |
| kanzure | LEFT JOIN *.* or something | 11:26 |
| nmz787 | any idea why this isnt working? | 11:26 |
| nmz787 | ALTER TABLE automobile ADD CONSTRAINT thisIsPriKey Primary Key (vin); | 11:26 |
| nmz787 | ERROR 1062 (23000): Duplicate entry '' for key 'PRIMARY' | 11:26 |
| kanzure | err well first "Primary Key" looks odd.. shouldn't it be PRIMARY_KEY or something without a space | 11:26 |
| nmz787 | caps dont matter | 11:27 |
| kanzure | is this oracle | 11:27 |
| nmz787 | sql | 11:27 |
| nmz787 | mysql | 11:27 |
| kanzure | ok just making sure | 11:27 |
| nmz787 | ahh | 11:28 |
| nmz787 | i think its because i have mutliple null vals in vin | 11:28 |
| nmz787 | i need to populate them first | 11:28 |
| nmz787 | :P | 11:28 |
| kanzure | sure.. need uniques | 11:28 |
| fenn | this is a reading comprehension test | 11:28 |
| kanzure | heh | 11:28 |
| kanzure | but why does the error message say the column is 'PRIMARY' instead of 'vin' | 11:29 |
| nmz787 | err, no | 11:29 |
| nmz787 | gah | 11:34 |
| nmz787 | what the crap | 11:35 |
| nmz787 | ahh | 11:36 |
| nmz787 | ok | 11:36 |
| nmz787 | i was dumb :P | 11:37 |
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| delinquentme | kanzure, this is both a MFG and service model? | 11:47 |
| delinquentme | the illumina of oligos? | 11:48 |
| kanzure | not really service | 11:48 |
| kanzure | just making a device | 11:48 |
| delinquentme | kk | 11:49 |
| nmz787 | this is the oxford nanopore device, of synthesizers | 11:51 |
| nmz787 | decentralize synthesis | 11:52 |
| delinquentme | nmz787, have you verified any of these methods? | 11:52 |
| nmz787 | which? | 11:52 |
| delinquentme | the synthesis | 11:53 |
| nmz787 | its all been done | 11:53 |
| delinquentme | kk | 11:53 |
| nmz787 | we're trying to be the marconi's of synthesis | 11:53 |
| nmz787 | marconi* | 11:53 |
| delinquentme | do you guys have a pump setup | 11:53 |
| delinquentme | or do I need to build a pump before you can proof of concept? | 11:53 |
| nmz787 | (he basically just took other's ideas and smashed them together with a flashy name called wireless telegraph) | 11:53 |
| kanzure | nmz787: oxford nanopore took >8 years and tens of millions of dollars | 11:53 |
| delinquentme | im sure you can borrow one | 11:53 |
| kanzure | or we will just buy a syringe pump | 11:54 |
| kanzure | a syringe pump is not a big deal | 11:54 |
| delinquentme | ^^^ | 11:54 |
| nmz787 | pumps are done too | 11:54 |
| kanzure | delinquentme: but a nice syringe pump would be super awesome | 11:54 |
| delinquentme | sooo i need to learn this chemistry if i want to contrib | 11:54 |
| nmz787 | kanzure: yeah it was an analogy | 11:54 |
| delinquentme | yeah i think thats what im gonna say | 11:54 |
| delinquentme | got this call in 5 | 11:54 |
| delinquentme | bascially we've got the people but we're not sure where the crossover between the projects happens | 11:55 |
| nmz787 | kanzure: have any idea re: db normalization? | 11:55 |
| kanzure | normalization? o.o | 11:55 |
| delinquentme | kk brb | 11:55 |
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| kanzure | nmz787: what do you mean | 11:56 |
| nmz787 | http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Database_normalization | 11:57 |
| kanzure | their example is retarded | 11:58 |
| kanzure | they start with some weird-ass shit and then end up with "customer_id, transaction_id, timestamp, amount" which is what everyone starts with anyway | 11:59 |
| _Sketch_ | diamonds can be semiconductors? | 12:03 |
| nmz787 | kanzure: nevermind, i'll just go ask the prof | 12:03 |
| kanzure | "An insertion anomaly. Until the new faculty member, Dr. Newsome, is assigned to teach at least one course, his details cannot be recorded." | 12:03 |
| kanzure | nobody does that in real life.. you would have a table where you record faculty members, and a table where you do faculty_courses and then a table for courses | 12:04 |
| kanzure | the faculty_courses table will assign course_id values to faculty_id values | 12:04 |
| kanzure | faculty table: id, name, email | 12:04 |
| kanzure | course table: id, name | 12:04 |
| kanzure | faculty_courses: id, faculty_id, course_id | 12:05 |
| kanzure | now, in reality, the actual schema is more complicated because you have faculty members doing different roles on different classes.. | 12:05 |
| ParahSailin | try SiC semiconductors first | 12:05 |
| nmz787 | kanzure: yeah, that's part of normalization though, i think | 12:10 |
| nmz787 | bbl | 12:11 |
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| kanzure | http://www.mrc-mbu.cam.ac.uk/research/atp-synthase with an animation | 12:24 |
| delinquentme | ok cool sooo | 12:24 |
| kanzure | http://www.mrc-mbu.cam.ac.uk/sites/default/files/images/image/atpsynanim.gif | 12:24 |
| kanzure | delinquentme: ? | 12:25 |
| delinquentme | kanzure, so jeremy @ lemnos labs invited you / us to apply | 12:25 |
| delinquentme | 50 k | 12:25 |
| delinquentme | 4 weeks | 12:25 |
| kanzure | fenn: what were you saying about lemnos? | 12:26 |
| kanzure | delinquentme: why do i want their money? | 12:26 |
| delinquentme | like if you dont want it cool | 12:26 |
| kanzure | ok so they accepted us, or they want me to pitch them? | 12:27 |
| delinquentme | they encouraged me to apply | 12:27 |
| delinquentme | if we dont need the money then we can buy a company car | 12:27 |
| delinquentme | lol | 12:27 |
| delinquentme | but yeah id love to get all these kids to SV | 12:28 |
| kanzure | their site says "we will consider anything in the hardware field except for microchips" | 12:28 |
| kanzure | so they are against microfluidics | 12:28 |
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| delinquentme | microfluidics ~= microchips | 12:28 |
| delinquentme | != | 12:29 |
| delinquentme | yes its close | 12:29 |
| delinquentme | but you get what they're after .. simply not semiconductors | 12:29 |
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| ParahSailin | lemnos labs? | 12:30 |
| kanzure | lemnos is right next door to langton (where fenn lives) | 12:31 |
| kanzure | fenn: what were you saying about lemnos last time we talked about them? | 12:31 |
| delinquentme | oh damn | 12:33 |
| delinquentme | ParahSailin, yeah they're a hardware accelerator | 12:34 |
| ParahSailin | is that what we used to call incubators? | 12:34 |
| delinquentme | haha yeah | 12:34 |
| delinquentme | think of it like a gas pedal | 12:34 |
| ParahSailin | you're close with those guys? | 12:35 |
| delinquentme | umm i've talked to them a few times and jeremy is really awesome | 12:35 |
| delinquentme | thats about all I can claim :D | 12:35 |
| kanzure | fenn lives with some of those advisors | 12:35 |
| ParahSailin | they give out 50,000 for equity? | 12:36 |
| kanzure | that's what incubators tend to do.. yes | 12:36 |
| delinquentme | der i shoulda asked about equity | 12:36 |
| delinquentme | masschallenge is no equity | 12:36 |
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| ParahSailin | i dont understand business model if no equity | 12:36 |
| delinquentme | the only thing is ... | 12:37 |
| delinquentme | they used to have drew endy listed as an advisor... | 12:37 |
| kanzure | ParahSailin: thiel's thing is rev share on IP instead of equity | 12:37 |
| kanzure | endy is an advisor at SU's incubation thing | 12:37 |
| delinquentme | can they only advise one? | 12:37 |
| kanzure | no | 12:37 |
| kanzure | usually "being an advisor" just means your picture is up on their site, and they might call you a few times | 12:37 |
| delinquentme | yeh but i wanna be all | 12:39 |
| delinquentme | YEWWWW ENDY | 12:39 |
| delinquentme | on first approximation! | 12:39 |
| delinquentme | :P~ | 12:39 |
| delinquentme | </troll> | 12:39 |
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| kkulhavy | hi | 12:40 |
| delinquentme | http://www.linkedin.com/pub/todd-huffman/1/201/623 << kanz wasnt this dude @ open sci? | 12:40 |
| delinquentme | kkulhavy, kanz is the dude | 12:40 |
| kkulhavy | what does this name hplusroadmap mean? | 12:40 |
| kanzure | todd? yeah.. todd lives at langton | 12:40 |
| kanzure | kkulhavy: transhumanist technical roadmap | 12:40 |
| delinquentme | kkulhavy, check out the MOTD | 12:40 |
| kanzure | kkulhavy: you know.. better, stronger, faster, smarter | 12:40 |
| delinquentme | ^^^ | 12:40 |
| kkulhavy | hplus is like human plus? | 12:40 |
| kkulhavy | oh | 12:40 |
| kanzure | hplus is like transhumanism | 12:40 |
| delinquentme | kanz hes who was asking about the agar agar | 12:40 |
| kkulhavy | so i can grow some cells on agar? | 12:40 |
| kkulhavy | I was experimenting with agar when I was making my open-source anti-aging cream | 12:41 |
| delinquentme | im not sure about human | 12:41 |
| kkulhavy | and I am also into open hardware | 12:41 |
| kanzure | what the hell is anti-aging cream | 12:41 |
| delinquentme | but someone in here would know | 12:41 |
| kanzure | we don't really tolerate scammers | 12:41 |
| kkulhavy | i guess this channel is the right place for me | 12:41 |
| delinquentme | kanzure, nogzema | 12:41 |
| delinquentme | kkulhavy, =] | 12:41 |
| delinquentme | cool kids who want to break everything | 12:41 |
| delinquentme | but thats just what I call us | 12:41 |
| kkulhavy | anti-aging cream is you put it on your face and you will look younger | 12:41 |
| delinquentme | aww i just found out william andregg added me on linked in ... what a swell guy | 12:41 |
| delinquentme | kkulhavy, ive used it for bum bleaching | 12:42 |
| delinquentme | lulz~ | 12:42 |
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| kkulhavy | kanzure, what do you mean with the scammers? is it a reply on the anti-aging cream? | 12:42 |
| delinquentme | kanzure, im gonna be a part time founder and work "random sidejobs" if we need extra cash | 12:42 |
| kanzure | part time founder to what? haha | 12:43 |
| delinquentme | kanzure, be nice! | 12:43 |
| kanzure | what are you selling | 12:43 |
| kanzure | it just sounds like an incomplete plan | 12:43 |
| delinquentme | kkulhavy, explain the anti aging cream prez | 12:43 |
| kkulhavy | delinquentme, you used anti-aging cream for bum-bleaching? | 12:43 |
| delinquentme | lolol | 12:43 |
| kanzure | kkulhavy: anti-aging doesn't really exist yet | 12:43 |
| kkulhavy | delinquentme, is like a homemade cream with anti-aging ingredients | 12:43 |
| kanzure | lots of people sell creams as a scam | 12:43 |
| kanzure | imho that is intolerable | 12:43 |
| delinquentme | well maybe his is different :D | 12:44 |
| delinquentme | kkulhavy, we're really about how to make steps towards legitimate world change | 12:44 |
| kkulhavy | kanzure, I feel unfairly accused when I talk about my homemade anti-aging cream and you say "what the hell is anti-aging cream" and "we don't really tolerate scammers" | 12:44 |
| delinquentme | ^^^ | 12:44 |
| kanzure | kkulhavy: anti-aging creams are everywhere | 12:44 |
| kanzure | THIS: http://www.antiaginganalyst.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/01/Anti-Aging-Cream.jpg | 12:44 |
| kanzure | you will not be living forever with that | 12:44 |
| kanzure | it's a scam | 12:45 |
| kkulhavy | lol :) | 12:45 |
| kkulhavy | I agree I wont live forever with an anti-aging cream | 12:45 |
| kanzure | ok then why are you calling it anti-aging? | 12:45 |
| ParahSailin | its just petroleum jelly with a little bit of a tachyon emitting isotope mixed in | 12:45 |
| kkulhavy | But during making that maybe I find some technique to use for home-made biochemistry- technology or related fields | 12:45 |
| kkulhavy | kanzure, because it contains various ingredients that are scientifically tested to reduce againg in skin | 12:46 |
| kkulhavy | typically wrinkles | 12:46 |
| kanzure | wrinkles don't cause aging | 12:46 |
| kanzure | ok ok i am starting to get the picture | 12:46 |
| kanzure | you mean anti-wrinkle | 12:46 |
| kkulhavy | whatever | 12:47 |
| kanzure | no? i am just trying to understand | 12:47 |
| kkulhavy | i put it on my face and looked like 16 when I am 32 | 12:47 |
| kkulhavy | then I though OK thats too much | 12:47 |
| kanzure | i don't understand what looking 16 has to do with living forever | 12:47 |
| kkulhavy | kanzure, well it also contains stuff which promote healing damage and nutrients for the skin | 12:47 |
| kkulhavy | anti-oxidants to reduce free radical damage | 12:47 |
| delinquentme | kkulhavy, you shoudl hang around here more | 12:48 |
| delinquentme | think big | 12:48 |
| delinquentme | thats a solid starting point | 12:48 |
| delinquentme | all I ask is ensure that if you're prototyping / selling something make it legit | 12:48 |
| kkulhavy | i cant make a cream to live forever (yet) | 12:48 |
| kkulhavy | kanzure, what have you done? | 12:48 |
| delinquentme | and I'd also say that the antioxidant market is pretty saturated | 12:49 |
| kkulhavy | delinquentme, what is legit? | 12:49 |
| kkulhavy | delinquentme, I am not selling anything, I published the instructions for free under GNU Free Documentation License | 12:49 |
| delinquentme | kkulhavy, i mean dont make it like a oil of olay product | 12:49 |
| delinquentme | kkulhavy, these are the kinds of projects we build here :D https://github.com/delinquentme/LH002/raw/master/images/LH002_full_01.png | 12:50 |
| kkulhavy | what is it? some well manipulator? | 12:50 |
| kkulhavy | for example I managed to make a skin-permeable peptide extract at home without any technology | 12:51 |
| kkulhavy | I think that could be reused on your project | 12:51 |
| kkulhavy | thats a sketch | 12:51 |
| kkulhavy | do you have a running machine? | 12:52 |
| kkulhavy | delinquentme, here is webpage of my product | 12:53 |
| kkulhavy | http://ronja.twibright.com/retune/ | 12:53 |
| kkulhavy | Here is package leaflet containing composition http://ronja.twibright.com/retune/retune_leaflet.pdf | 12:53 |
| kkulhavy | I feel unfairly rejected now here. I think my work is in the same vein as whats going on here. | 12:54 |
| kanzure | what? are you the ronja person | 12:54 |
| kanzure | the optical data interlink stuff | 12:55 |
| kkulhavy | yes | 12:55 |
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| kanzure | i think i've been trying to find an excuse to build some for a while now | 12:55 |
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| kkulhavy | kanzure, ok | 12:55 |
| kkulhavy | can you do HIV quantitative PCR at home? | 12:56 |
| kkulhavy | and if yes, at what cost? what complicated chemicals required? | 12:57 |
| kanzure | you can do qPCR but what is special about HIV? | 12:57 |
| delinquentme | if the rubber breaks you're a deadman | 12:57 |
| delinquentme | buh dum cha | 12:57 |
| kkulhavy | kanzure, how do you do qPCR at home? | 12:57 |
| kanzure | well first you need a thermocycler | 12:57 |
| delinquentme | kkulhavy, i needs the $$ for protoing | 12:57 |
| kanzure | so you either build one for $25 or buy something used for $200-$500 like openpcr or some crap | 12:57 |
| delinquentme | so eye working on smaller thinger atm | 12:57 |
| kkulhavy | kanzure, HIV is special in the sense I think many people on the world could seriously benefit if cheap DIY HIV qPCR was published opensource | 12:58 |
| kanzure | reagents are pretty easy to acquire.. carolina biosciences sells some | 12:58 |
| kanzure | kkulhavy: ok. but i was asking if HIV means a different qPCR method or something | 12:58 |
| kkulhavy | so some people from central africa will order from carolina biosciences? | 12:58 |
| kkulhavy | In my opinion open source should be portable | 12:59 |
| kanzure | well, if they want to ? i don't really recommend it.. i'd prefer to do protein purification on my own | 12:59 |
| kkulhavy | made from materials cheaply available everywhere | 12:59 |
| kanzure | ok what does that have to do with open source licenses | 12:59 |
| kanzure | i think you mean DIY? | 12:59 |
| kkulhavy | I think if something is DIY opensource then really everyone in the world can use it | 12:59 |
| kanzure | ok? that's generally a truism | 13:00 |
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| kanzure | have you picked a protein purification technique? | 13:00 |
| kkulhavy | Does this machine actually physically exist? https://github.com/delinquentme/LH002/raw/master/images/LH002_full_01.png | 13:01 |
| delinquentme | kkulhavy, newp! | 13:01 |
| kkulhavy | delinquentme, what u mean with newp? | 13:01 |
| kanzure | i think lh001 exists | 13:02 |
| kanzure | lh002 probably doesn't? | 13:02 |
| delinquentme | kkulhavy, it exists in schematics only | 13:02 |
| delinquentme | lh001 is sitting in the attic | 13:02 |
| kkulhavy | can i see photo of lh001? | 13:02 |
| kkulhavy | I find this very interesting | 13:02 |
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| kkulhavy | kanzure, you say build thermocycler for $25 I find that interesting | 13:03 |
| kanzure | thermocyclers tend to be overpriced | 13:03 |
| delinquentme | kkulhavy, http://imgur.com/gkhMd | 13:03 |
| delinquentme | turns out I dont have any images of the machine in that dir | 13:03 |
| kkulhavy | But I guess if I go to central africa and giv a HIV+ person a thermocycler into his hands he will still not be able to figure how many HIV particles per milliliter he has in his blood | 13:04 |
| kkulhavy | I would like to see a complete product | 13:04 |
| kanzure | kkulhavy: http://russelldurrett.com/lightbulbpcr.html | 13:04 |
| kanzure | i think it should be a kit not a single product | 13:04 |
| kkulhavy | Instead of ordering analysis for $$$, you follow simple instructions for $$ | 13:04 |
| kanzure | who cares if it is a single product or not | 13:04 |
| kanzure | why do you want money to be involved | 13:04 |
| kkulhavy | kanzure, I feel disrespected when you say "why do you want money to be involved" | 13:05 |
| kanzure | it's an honest question | 13:05 |
| kanzure | why should they pay you for this? | 13:05 |
| kanzure | and why wouldn't they just use free instructions instead | 13:05 |
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| delinquentme | why the hate? | 13:06 |
| kanzure | because he's trying to sell us instructions.. doesn't make sense to me | 13:06 |
| delinquentme | kanzure, its what he wants to do | 13:06 |
| kanzure | or, purpotedly, he'd be selling instructions | 13:06 |
| delinquentme | better than fapping to jersey shore no? | 13:06 |
| kanzure | yes but what happens when i release free instructions | 13:07 |
| kkulhavy | kanzure, I feel disrespected and unfairly accused when you say "because he's trying to sell us instructions" | 13:07 |
| kanzure | you just said so | 13:07 |
| kanzure | < kkulhavy> Instead of ordering analysis for $$$, you follow simple instructions for $$ | 13:07 |
| kkulhavy | Oh lightbulb PCR I find this idea great | 13:08 |
| kkulhavy | But I am afraid about the thermal inertia | 13:08 |
| kanzure | there are other designs. lightbulb is fairly primitive | 13:08 |
| kkulhavy | On the page I cant actually see the vessel where the liquid is put | 13:08 |
| kanzure | openpcr is $500 and sorta overpriced for what it is | 13:08 |
| delinquentme | kkulhavy, http://imgur.com/a/rXkEx#0 | 13:09 |
| delinquentme | there u go | 13:09 |
| kkulhavy | wow, amazing! | 13:10 |
| kkulhavy | what can the machine do? | 13:10 |
| kkulhavy | suck liquid into the pipettes and eject into other wells? | 13:10 |
| delinquentme | umm dispense liquids :D | 13:10 |
| delinquentme | no aspiration .. just dispensing | 13:10 |
| kkulhavy | I saw a similar machine at my doctor | 13:10 |
| delinquentme | i made a few gross underestimates on peristaltic pumps :D | 13:11 |
| kkulhavy | one can see it running from the waiting room | 13:11 |
| delinquentme | thats cool | 13:11 |
| delinquentme | kkulhavy, what country are you located in? | 13:11 |
| kkulhavy | delinquentme, that means only putting liquids from the pipettes out, not into them? | 13:11 |
| kkulhavy | delinquentme, switzerland | 13:11 |
| delinquentme | yeah just dispensing | 13:11 |
| delinquentme | HA! so you know Tecan | 13:11 |
| kkulhavy | oh peristaltic pump I find it elegant | 13:11 |
| delinquentme | yeahhhh | 13:11 |
| kkulhavy | Whos tecan? | 13:11 |
| delinquentme | OOOo | 13:11 |
| kkulhavy | delinquentme, and the machine number 2 will have aspiration? | 13:11 |
| delinquentme | BIG liquid handlers | 13:12 |
| kkulhavy | no i dont | 13:12 |
| delinquentme | yeah #2 is micnasty | 13:12 |
| kkulhavy | micnasty? | 13:12 |
| delinquentme | mcnasty** | 13:12 |
| delinquentme | hhaha yeah like really complex | 13:12 |
| kkulhavy | what is mcnasty? nickname? | 13:12 |
| delinquentme | mcnasty == complex and feature-filled | 13:12 |
| kkulhavy | aha | 13:12 |
| delinquentme | mcnasty == " does lots of stuff " | 13:12 |
| kkulhavy | so what kind of homemade bio can you do with this new machine? | 13:13 |
| delinquentme | kkulhavy, the idea is to make something that people can prototype and program to do any kind of liquid moving | 13:13 |
| delinquentme | basically the shitty stuff that grad students do with pipettes | 13:13 |
| delinquentme | something to reinforce separation of human and machine tasks | 13:13 |
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| fenn | kkulhavy: are you clock from #brlcad? | 13:14 |
| kkulhavy | and this will be used to promote homemade transhumanism? | 13:14 |
| kkulhavy | fenn, yes | 13:14 |
| kanzure | fenn: lemnos labs rant? | 13:14 |
| ParahSailin | you want to make cheap open source automated liquid handling? | 13:14 |
| delinquentme | kkulhavy, http://www.atlanticlabequipment.com/images/products/Tecan%20Freedom%20EVO200_430.JPG << tecan evo | 13:14 |
| kanzure | ParahSailin: correction.. delinquentme has already done that | 13:14 |
| kkulhavy | ParahSailin, I dont want to make it, I just want that it exists | 13:14 |
| delinquentme | kanzure, <3 | 13:15 |
| delinquentme | ParahSailin, correct | 13:15 |
| ParahSailin | thats pretty cool, where can i get | 13:15 |
| delinquentme | like im just bastardizing someone elses ideas | 13:15 |
| kkulhavy | oh it looks similar | 13:15 |
| delinquentme | well thats where i fucked up | 13:15 |
| delinquentme | it needs more work bc its too fucking expensive | 13:15 |
| kkulhavy | like why do I have to go to doctor to figure out if I have say influenza or not? | 13:15 |
| delinquentme | its 1/6th the cost | 13:15 |
| delinquentme | but it should be 1/60th | 13:15 |
| kkulhavy | why do I have to pay quite some money every time I want to know how much vitamin D is in my blood? | 13:16 |
| delinquentme | so I need to run some rep-rap style hacks on it | 13:16 |
| ParahSailin | how would you reduce that cost | 13:16 |
| kkulhavy | I think today is so much possibilities with DIY that one could have a machine to load the blood and run some kind of program | 13:16 |
| delinquentme | kkulhavy, amen. you should be able to hack a blood glucose meter to get that no? | 13:16 |
| kkulhavy | I believe I am able to hack anything | 13:16 |
| kanzure | glucose meter wont tell you influenza | 13:16 |
| kkulhavy | It just costs time | 13:16 |
| delinquentme | time and some knowledge | 13:17 |
| kkulhavy | In my experience knowledge is in the Internet | 13:17 |
| delinquentme | correct me if im wrong here but the strips that people use for testing on those are nothing more than engineered bits of paper | 13:17 |
| kkulhavy | I made homemade pH indicators | 13:17 |
| delinquentme | kind of what that one guy @ mit did for some 3rd world diseases on color change paper | 13:17 |
| delinquentme | ParahSailin, right now there are a few parts which i've over engineered | 13:18 |
| kkulhavy | I took Curcuma spice, put into rubbing alcohol, then filter through coffee filter and dip strips of paper into the yellow liquid | 13:18 |
| kkulhavy | it has boundary around pH 9 or 10 | 13:18 |
| delinquentme | basically replace whatever I can with threaded rods | 13:18 |
| delinquentme | swap out arduinos for custom made MCs which are small and cheap | 13:18 |
| kkulhavy | we have arduino in the work | 13:18 |
| ParahSailin | how many arduinos are used? | 13:19 |
| fenn | i think "except for microchips" means they don't want to throw millions at wafer fab costs | 13:20 |
| delinquentme | 1 on each 8 channel dispenser head | 13:20 |
| delinquentme | they're each handling only 1 stepper 1 linear actuator and a string encoder | 13:20 |
| ParahSailin | so a bunch of them | 13:21 |
| delinquentme | so a custom PCB could run so much cheaper and give me more FLOPS | 13:21 |
| delinquentme | well the current machine is designed to handle i think 12 cores? | 13:21 |
| delinquentme | id have to verify .. but the string encoder i sourced for it is limited @ 36" | 13:21 |
| delinquentme | but thats the limiting factor | 13:21 |
| delinquentme | kkulhavy, you should def hang out in here more | 13:22 |
| delinquentme | i like the DIY ph meter | 13:22 |
| kanzure | don't mind me being grumpy about "anti-aging" claims | 13:23 |
| kanzure | kkulhavy: http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/longevity/ | 13:24 |
| kkulhavy | where is DIY pH meter? | 13:25 |
| delinquentme | kanzure, its just you're hugely into hard science and the idea of aging cream carries much commerical baggage | 13:25 |
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| delinquentme | kkulhavy, i mean home made pH indicators | 13:25 |
| delinquentme | fenn you're with us now? | 13:25 |
| delinquentme | yeah like i totally think microfluidics != semiconductors | 13:26 |
| kkulhavy | delinquentme, Oh it was just a 2-colored indicator not pH meter | 13:26 |
| kkulhavy | But now I wonder | 13:26 |
| kkulhavy | I used calibrated digital camera to measure changes in skin color as a result of sun tanning | 13:27 |
| kkulhavy | And there I learned to calibrate digital camera precisely | 13:27 |
| delinquentme | image recognition == awesome | 13:27 |
| kkulhavy | if one could use these rainbow papers, photograph them and software would convert the picture into precise pH reading | 13:27 |
| delinquentme | ive got a friend whos done it in matlab | 13:27 |
| delinquentme | but education ruined him | 13:27 |
| kkulhavy | done what? | 13:27 |
| delinquentme | so now hes trying to work for the DoD lulz. | 13:27 |
| ybit | kanzure: the position at Masten changed to an internship position in the Fall with potential to for full-time, apparently it's now on their website | 13:28 |
| delinquentme | kkulhavy, image recognition .. like outline tracing | 13:28 |
| kkulhavy | matlab not opensource is it? | 13:28 |
| ybit | so, blah | 13:28 |
| delinquentme | automated cell counts | 13:28 |
| kkulhavy | aha | 13:28 |
| ybit | i can forward you the OSE Mojave stuff if you want it | 13:28 |
| kkulhavy | yeah | 13:28 |
| delinquentme | kkulhavy, the free version i stole is | 13:28 |
| delinquentme | :D | 13:28 |
| delinquentme | OSE mojave == OS matlab? | 13:28 |
| delinquentme | MATLARB | 13:28 |
| kkulhavy | anyone is doing photographing from microscope with digital camera? | 13:28 |
| delinquentme | MARTLARB | 13:28 |
| kanzure | kkulhavy: http://diybio.org/2009/12/13/webcam-microscope-hacks-at-bosslab/ | 13:30 |
| kkulhavy | I know GNU R and gnuplot | 13:31 |
| ybit | kkulhavy: make sure you have a decent base for the camera | 13:31 |
| kkulhavy | ybit, what u mean with decent base? | 13:31 |
| kkulhavy | prevent shaking? | 13:32 |
| fenn | gah i can't read backlog fast enough | 13:33 |
| diginet | matlab is an abomination | 13:33 |
| kkulhavy | abdomination | 13:33 |
| ybit | s/base/stage that and the camera don't need to move | 13:34 |
| * kkulhavy abdominates on matlab | 13:34 | |
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| kkulhavy | ybit, why do you suggest to have a decent base? | 13:34 |
| kkulhavy | stage | 13:34 |
| ybit | without base: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6MS2KYxQbfg&context=C4b40f9cADvjVQa1PpcFPf9E3GqOEjqtPGsFijKuySKoIo-CIvP-I= | 13:34 |
| kkulhavy | I think even with indecent stage you can move the slide and then make a picture cant you? | 13:34 |
| ybit | you can | 13:35 |
| ybit | but the video sucks | 13:35 |
| ybit | with a base: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P4idmYWMDk4&context=C404fb40ADvjVQa1PpcFPf9E3GqOEjqjiMnYyJ8YRF7wsRuKy91i8= | 13:35 |
| kkulhavy | why is the image shaking in the video= | 13:35 |
| ybit | 13:34 < ybit> without base: | 13:35 |
| fenn | kkulhavy: i've done this simply by holding the camera up to the microscope. an easy way to hold them together is with shapelock (polycaprolactone) | 13:36 |
| kkulhavy | aha :) | 13:36 |
| kanzure | fenn: singularity is when ##hplusroadmap backlog grows faster than any of us can read it? | 13:36 |
| fenn | octave is open source equivalent of matlab | 13:36 |
| kkulhavy | what about removing lens and eyepiece and focusing from objective directly on CCD? | 13:37 |
| fenn | i don't have anything particularly interesting to say about lemnos labs | 13:37 |
| kanzure | but just use python instead of octave.. then you get scipy and other nice things like numpy, sympy, etc. | 13:37 |
| kkulhavy | This way I made a super-tele-lens webcam from old film camera and cheap webcam | 13:37 |
| ybit | kkulhavy: i tried that, didn't work | 13:37 |
| ybit | ..with 3 webcams, but you might have better luck | 13:37 |
| fenn | simon field (of scitoys.com) put a microscope objective in a DSLR where the lens usually goes, it worked very well | 13:38 |
| kanzure | delinquentme: i think it would be better to work on this project and, if lemnos is interested in it, they can choose to invest | 13:38 |
| kkulhavy | aha | 13:38 |
| kkulhavy | ybit, so what happened exactly? | 13:38 |
| kkulhavy | did you get black picture? white? defocused picture? | 13:39 |
| ybit | one of those | 13:39 |
| ybit | i can't recall | 13:39 |
| ybit | i'm going with defocused | 13:39 |
| delinquentme | kanzure, you're saying dont apply? | 13:39 |
| fenn | the objective was really close to the ccd, practically inside of the camera body | 13:40 |
| fenn | which makes sense considering the objectives usually have focal length of 10-20mm | 13:40 |
| kkulhavy | my microscope objective to ocular distance is about 15cm | 13:42 |
| kkulhavy | I wouldnt put objective close to CCD | 13:42 |
| fenn | why not? | 13:42 |
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| kkulhavy | then the magnification would be reduced I think and the objective not running in situation for which it was optimized | 13:42 |
| kanzure | hi capiscuas | 13:42 |
| fenn | a lens is a lens is a lens | 13:42 |
| capiscuas | hi kanzure | 13:43 |
| kanzure | capiscuas: what brings you here? :) | 13:44 |
| capiscuas | hmm, openhardware, i'm interested, and u? | 13:44 |
| Vicarious | ohai | 13:44 |
| fenn | ah cool it's actually online. kkulhavy have a look at this: http://sciencehackday.pbworks.com/w/page/47743279/sfhacks2011#hack_9 | 13:45 |
| kanzure | are those slides stained? | 13:46 |
| kanzure | yes it looks like it | 13:46 |
| kkulhavy | hehe magnet holding slide | 13:47 |
| kkulhavy | I find this ingenious | 13:47 |
| kkulhavy | But the Canon DSLR is kinda expensive for my open source hardware taste | 13:48 |
| kkulhavy | You will need | 13:48 |
| kkulhavy | 1 piece of duct tape, 4 magnets, 2 plumbing parts and one Canon DSLR | 13:48 |
| kkulhavy | One microscope objective | 13:49 |
| kkulhavy | I go to ironmogers "good morning, do you have microscope objectives?" | 13:49 |
| delinquentme | for an academic ... | 13:49 |
| kkulhavy | "yes sure, they are on the left side, between flowerpots and rakes..." | 13:49 |
| delinquentme | does " thats not my area of expertise " mean " I'm too lazy" ? | 13:49 |
| kanzure | probably | 13:53 |
| * fenn mumbles something about DMAE | 13:53 | |
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| kanzure | AsiaNet | 13:54 |
| delinquentme | k | 13:55 |
| delinquentme | BRB | 13:55 |
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| folmat | C - the +7 chain mail of Sonkash (worn) {Dex+1 Int+4} | 14:01 |
| folmat | oh wow | 14:01 |
| fenn | shoo | 14:03 |
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| kanzure | thesnark: update me? | 14:06 |
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| kanzure | http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Competing_endogenous_RNA_(CeRNA) | 14:27 |
| kanzure | "RNA transcripts, both protein-coding and non-coding, thus have the ability to compete for microRNA binding and co-regulate each other in complex ceRNA networks (ceRNETs). The ceRNA language represents an added trans-regulatory dimension to mRNA biology besides the protein-coding function" | 14:28 |
| yashgaroth | yep | 14:28 |
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| skorket | so these RNA strands can inhibit or express other RNA strands? | 14:32 |
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| fenn | huh. "[rats who had listened to mozart] had increased gene expression of BDNF, a neural growth factor, CREB, a learning and memory compound, and synapsin I, a synaptic growth protein, in their hippocampus, as compared to control rats who had listened to equivalent amounts of white noise." | 14:32 |
| yashgaroth | usually it's just inhibit, but if you have yet another RNA inhibiting that inhibition, then that turns into expression | 14:33 |
| katsmeow-afk | yeas, those are my two fav choices to listen to | 14:33 |
| skorket | wow, so there it is, a full RNA computer | 14:33 |
| fenn | DJ white noise | 14:33 |
| yashgaroth | why did they use white noise as a control and not dubstep or something | 14:33 |
| kanzure | and where were they measuring these molecules? | 14:33 |
| kanzure | in the hippocampus? | 14:33 |
| skorket | if there was ever any doubt that the cell is doing, or at least has the potential to do, complex computation, that dispells it | 14:34 |
| fenn | i suppose so | 14:34 |
| yashgaroth | it seems like complex computation, but for biologists it just becomes a total clusterfuck | 14:34 |
| kanzure | skorket: you should look at the dna computation stuff from winfree's lab | 14:34 |
| kanzure | skorket: http://dna.caltech.edu/ | 14:34 |
| skorket | hmm, details are scarce and much of it is private | 14:36 |
| kkulhavy | When I listen to Mozart, I have elevated expression of cerebroborin, a protein that is secreted when I am bored | 14:36 |
| kkulhavy | yashgaroth, yeah, I like dubstep | 14:37 |
| kkulhavy | What about dubstep Mozart? | 14:37 |
| kkulhavy | http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ABBDGuwxCYY&feature=fvst | 14:37 |
| kkulhavy | oh but this one is Beethoven. | 14:37 |
| skorket | kanzure, tricking systems into performing turing machine equivalent computation is pretty easy. I was more pointing out that there might be a level of complexity in the cell that's just now coming to light | 14:37 |
| fenn | i'm so sick of dubstep | 14:38 |
| kanzure | cerebroborin just means you have a genetic disease that allows you to become bored | 14:38 |
| kanzure | boredom is a disease! or something | 14:38 |
| kkulhavy | correction http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9PQXddD3uYU | 14:38 |
| kanzure | wait maybe i have that backwards | 14:38 |
| fenn | ableton effects != music | 14:38 |
| kkulhavy | what about tricking sytems into not breaking down after 80 years of operation? | 14:38 |
| kkulhavy | fenn, :) | 14:38 |
| kanzure | "equivalent amounts of white noise" sounds sorta vague; does this mean that they had the same pitches or something | 14:39 |
| kanzure | like maybe the effects of mozart are not due to melody but instead due to tones | 14:39 |
| katsmeow-afk | or tone ratios | 14:40 |
| kanzure | maybe you should just plug an auditory cortex up to an mp3 player in a simulation | 14:40 |
| kanzure | archels: isn't that your job? | 14:40 |
| katsmeow-afk | mozart vs white noise is like concrete vs styrofoam | 14:41 |
| fenn | only one other piece of music has been found to have a similar effect; a song by the Greek composer Yanni, entitled "Acroyali/Standing in Motion" | 14:42 |
| fenn | great. can't say i'm particularly a fan of yanni | 14:42 |
| kanzure | fenn maybe you are being trolled | 14:42 |
| kkulhavy | katsmeow-afk, lol | 14:42 |
| katsmeow-afk | then the task shold be comparing that yanni vs that mozart, forget white noise | 14:42 |
| jrayhawk | um, i don't think they were interested in discovering what the best music is | 14:43 |
| jrayhawk | that would take a rather large budget | 14:43 |
| fenn | yes epilepsy.org.uk is run by trolls | 14:44 |
| katsmeow-afk | i understand, but the only commonalities they studied was the few fenn copy-pasted about? | 14:44 |
| kanzure | i wonder if they were sure that their white noise was statistically white noise or not | 14:44 |
| katsmeow-afk | anyhow, their research methods and goals simply differ from what i'd do, that's all <shrug> | 14:45 |
| kanzure | skorket: there are also things such as genetic regulatory networks. | 14:45 |
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| kanzure | hello F71 | 14:46 |
| F71 | Ha, finally | 14:46 |
| kanzure | F71: we are talking about a random mozart vs. white noise mouse study | 14:46 |
| kanzure | F71: http://gnusha.org/logs/2012-04-03.log | 14:46 |
| fenn | sorry i got carried away reading http://ririanproject.com/2006/11/03/22-ways-to-overclok-your-brain/ | 14:46 |
| kanzure | diginet: F71 is in your area btw | 14:46 |
| F71 | Fenn is in H-town? | 14:47 |
| katsmeow-afk | it's almost 5pm, i think i'lltake a baseball bat to the road gate and wait on UPS there | 14:47 |
| diginet | oh hey F71, you're apparently in Houston? I am too | 14:47 |
| F71 | Cool. Have you been by TX/RX yet? | 14:47 |
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| diginet | that I have not | 14:48 |
| fenn | "Be a thinker, not a drinker." | 14:48 |
| skorket | kanzure, yep, but from speaking with biologists, they tend to think of them as kind of second order effects or things that are simple when compared to protein expression. One could just as easily say 'computation networks' instead of 'regulatory networks' but I feel like most biologists would scoff at that term. Completely my opinion and of course I just might be wrong... | 14:48 |
| diginet | it's rather far from my house, and I don't drive | 14:48 |
| diginet | but I'll have to make it a point to go there at some point | 14:48 |
| F71 | Wait, Meredith introduced me to you at house of pies, right? | 14:48 |
| kanzure | meredith was in houston? | 14:49 |
| diginet | wait | 14:49 |
| diginet | I've never met any of you | 14:49 |
| skorket | For example, how does a fingernail cell know to grow a fingernail? Or a hair follicle cell know to grow a hair follicle? From a very high level, there must at the very least be some level of computation to know just the position of the cell so that it can do it's function properly | 14:49 |
| F71 | Meredith comes down to houston about twice a year to hang out. | 14:49 |
| kanzure | skorket: it's not by position of the cell.. it's by the gradient of molecules nearby | 14:49 |
| skorket | kanzure, you say tomato | 14:49 |
| kanzure | skorket: also look up pluripotency and induced pluripotency like in stem cells. http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/stem-cells/ | 14:50 |
| fenn | also, pantha du prince has been scientifically demonstrated to have the mozart effect | 14:50 |
| skorket | anyway, the idea is that computation needs to happen on some level. The mechanism of which I would bet is DNA/RNA regulatory networks like the one described above | 14:51 |
| Stee| | goddamn, ieet is a cesspool | 14:52 |
| Stee| | anything that's not the main journal | 14:52 |
| kanzure | ieet is just anti-transhumanist filth | 14:52 |
| kanzure | they might claim otherwise but.. | 14:52 |
| diginet | what is ieet? | 14:52 |
| kanzure | http://ieet.org/ | 14:53 |
| Stee| | kanzure: They all perceive themselves as transhumanists. | 14:53 |
| kanzure | "The Institute for Ethics and Emerging Technologies was formed to study and debate vital questions " | 14:53 |
| diginet | I know this is a trans-humanist channel, but I don't see how that term has any meaning considering we're nowhere near that level of tehcnology | 14:53 |
| diginet | it's like being pro-android or something | 14:53 |
| diginet | (I came here for DIYbio though) | 14:53 |
| skorket | diginet, just wait, it's happening already | 14:53 |
| F71 | Well, early start I guess | 14:53 |
| kanzure | diginet: we already have the tech | 14:53 |
| diginet | what is? | 14:53 |
| kanzure | what you smoking? | 14:53 |
| kanzure | we have steroids, nootropics, awful prosthetics, brain implants, brain stimulation, genetic engineering, gene therapy, .. | 14:54 |
| diginet | I wouldn't want any of those | 14:54 |
| diginet | not right now anyway | 14:54 |
| F71 | Oh, Kanzure, I can't find that awesome list of gene thereapy treatments banned from the olympics | 14:54 |
| kanzure | and because you don't want it, it makes it not transhumanist? | 14:54 |
| F71 | nor the associated papers | 14:55 |
| kanzure | F71: one sec.. | 14:55 |
| skorket | There was a guy a few years ago who had a camera wired into his brain. He was blind but was able to see with the implant | 14:55 |
| F71 | the links went dead | 14:55 |
| kanzure | F71: http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/gene_doping_for_sports_enhancement.png | 14:55 |
| diginet | no I'm saying the term seems meaningless, getting a brain implant doesn't mean you are no longer human | 14:55 |
| kanzure | diginet: ok then just use the word "human enhancement" | 14:55 |
| diginet | okay | 14:55 |
| Stee| | transhumanist doesn't mean no longer human | 14:56 |
| kanzure | i agree the "speciest" stuff isn't helpful | 14:56 |
| Stee| | it's the transitory stage to posthumanist | 14:56 |
| Stee| | (in the original definition of the word, sorry kanzure) | 14:56 |
| fenn | -_- | 14:56 |
| F71 | Humanity+ | 14:56 |
| diginet | well, how do you feel about guys like Ray Kurzweil? because I think he's a crank, and most imaginings of the "singularity" and tenuous at best and sound more like the rapture for atheists | 14:56 |
| kanzure | i think ray is too popular | 14:56 |
| diginet | *are | 14:56 |
| kanzure | ray takes the "sit back and wait for things to happen" philosophy | 14:56 |
| diginet | I love how he claims to have mad tons of "accurate" predictions | 14:56 |
| fenn | PPAR-delta is the one i would want | 14:56 |
| diginet | *made | 14:57 |
| kanzure | diginet: you can read more of my complaints against ray here.. http://heybryan.org/fernhout/ | 14:57 |
| diginet | cool | 14:57 |
| Stee| | anyway | 14:57 |
| F71 | I like Kurzweil. I think about him every time I use a flatbed scanner, OCR, and Text-to-speech to convert a textbook for a blind person | 14:57 |
| Stee| | the whole rapture for atheists thing is often used as a way to attack something without debating specific parts of the science | 14:57 |
| Stee| | I attack the whole 'hard ai' thing | 14:57 |
| F71 | I think he's deteriorated, and that he's killing himself with vitamins | 14:57 |
| diginet | text to speech? unless I've missed out on something, it's rather horrible | 14:58 |
| kanzure | text to speech has improved but i wouldn't credit any improvements to ray | 14:58 |
| fenn | ieet isn't necessarily "anti transhumanist" but they generally cause more distraction by "promoting debate about ethics" than actual progress | 14:58 |
| kanzure | fenn: they are anti- in the sense that they end up at ideas that inhibit transhumanism | 14:58 |
| diginet | here's the thing though, the whole idea that "transhumans will be so far removed that we can't understand them" is just hand-waving | 14:58 |
| diginet | why can't we understand them? | 14:58 |
| fenn | kanzure: like what ideas? | 14:58 |
| kanzure | diginet: who says that? | 14:58 |
| diginet | I hear it all the time | 14:58 |
| kanzure | fenn: precautionary principles applied to policies | 14:58 |
| diginet | or variations there on | 14:59 |
| kanzure | diginet: maybe your other friends suck :( | 14:59 |
| Stee| | diginet: I can think of posthumans reaching that stage, given a few priors | 14:59 |
| Stee| | however, it's speculation, not prediction | 14:59 |
| diginet | so what would be so instrinsically different? | 14:59 |
| fenn | kanzure: i think many typically start with the precautionary principle and then try to justify their values | 14:59 |
| Stee| | perception of ego is one option | 14:59 |
| Stee| | sheer speed of thought for an unaugmented human is another | 15:00 |
| diginet | see, that's again, something without rigour | 15:00 |
| Stee| | I did say it was speculation | 15:00 |
| fenn | diginet: try reading some iain banks novels, most of the machines and trans-humans are perfectly sociable | 15:00 |
| diginet | I've heard of his stuff, familiar with it | 15:00 |
| diginet | the culture sounds terrifiying | 15:00 |
| Stee| | I have no doubt they will be able to interact with us on our level | 15:00 |
| fenn | terrifying like a honda civic | 15:00 |
| Stee| | I just don't think that an unaugmented human will be able to interact with a posthuman on its level | 15:00 |
| kanzure | diginet: are you arguing that human enhancing technologies are impossible, or just that there's a lot of cranks? | 15:01 |
| diginet | the latter | 15:01 |
| F71 | It's not like being superintelligent will make you superautistic | 15:01 |
| Stee| | right | 15:01 |
| kanzure | F71: why not | 15:01 |
| kanzure | F71: maybe i want to be superautistic damn | 15:01 |
| F71 | hahahah | 15:01 |
| Stee| | does not necessitate :P | 15:01 |
| diginet | One thing I find very disturbing about transhumanism, or like-minded philosophies is the trend of neo-eugenics | 15:01 |
| diginet | people like Peter Singer really disgust me | 15:01 |
| kanzure | diginet: yeah, we try not to use that word in here | 15:01 |
| kanzure | because everyone has their own definition of "eugenics" | 15:01 |
| Stee| | define what you mean by eugenics, yeah | 15:02 |
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| kanzure | Stee| for instance is pro-eugenics in the sense of "Force everyone to be enhanced or else" | 15:02 |
| Stee| | yup | 15:02 |
| kkulhavy | what is neo-eugenics? | 15:02 |
| diginet | Okay, that's fair enough | 15:02 |
| diginet | Stee|'s | 15:02 |
| kanzure | diginet: but msot of the extropians are "i am only talking about my own personal enhancement" | 15:02 |
| kanzure | "personalized human enhancement" | 15:02 |
| diginet | what if I don;t want to be enhanced? Do I not have sovereighnty over my own body? | 15:02 |
| fenn | you can pay for emergency room care, or preventative medicine. either way it's society's burden, one is just more efficient | 15:03 |
| kanzure | http://www.maxmore.com/extprn3.htm | 15:03 |
| Stee| | diginet: I view all loss of intelligence as irreversible and tragic. You can put yourself away in cryogenic sleep for as long as you want though. | 15:03 |
| fenn | if you're not born yet, no, you don't have sovereignty (and you don't anyway, not according to the existing governments) | 15:03 |
| kanzure | diginet: i am just warning you that Stee| has some negative opinions that will scare you | 15:03 |
| kanzure | and i'd like to add that we don't support those opinions really | 15:03 |
| diginet | Well, genetic enhancement doesn't exist yet, so that's a moot point | 15:03 |
| diginet | it's not like we're right around the corner to super-babies | 15:04 |
| kanzure | well depends on your definition of super | 15:04 |
| Stee| | I have a number of very extreme opinions that fall out of my arbitrarily chosen ethics | 15:04 |
| kanzure | you can do some genetic work on babies already | 15:04 |
| fenn | for example, ultrasound exams | 15:04 |
| kanzure | well i was thing IVF and genome changes but ok | 15:04 |
| fenn | a simple ultrasound will allow you to screen many genetic defects | 15:04 |
| kanzure | *thinking | 15:05 |
| F71 | I'd like to see some testing and RNAi on the embryo to fix sickle cell | 15:05 |
| F71 | Just suppress the promoter that turns of the fetal hemoglobin expression | 15:05 |
| F71 | *off | 15:05 |
| fenn | unfortunately there are religious nutsos in control of the legislature, to the point where a doctor in kansas is not legally obligated to tell you the results of an ultrasound if he thinks it may cause you to abort the baby | 15:05 |
| diginet | But okay, let's take an example close to me: my brother has low-functioning autism, he suffers from mental retardation, I'm sure there's a lot of people in these sorts of circles who think such a life is a waste, but he has feelings, and has the ability to have meaning. People like Peter Singer, who I hate, would support infanticide of him. Now, I don't support the idea of NOT fixing those problenms if we could (autism is | 15:05 |
| diginet | hard to screen for, I don't think there is really a way to) | 15:05 |
| diginet | but, who is one to decide whether another's life is worthy? | 15:06 |
| kanzure | nobody is deciding that | 15:06 |
| Stee| | which is why I support enhancing everyone :V | 15:06 |
| kanzure | fuck Stee| you are just muddling this conversation up | 15:06 |
| kanzure | right now you are not strong enough to force everyone to be enhanced | 15:06 |
| kanzure | so stop acting like it | 15:06 |
| Stee| | however, preemptive screening of autism, or even managing to change whatever chemical or genetic whatever factors in the womb may cause it is also something I support | 15:07 |
| fenn | oh great another bioethicist (peter singer) | 15:07 |
| diginet | so, enforcing neurotypicality? | 15:07 |
| kanzure | no | 15:07 |
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| diginet | should we also enforce race? | 15:08 |
| kanzure | no | 15:08 |
| kanzure | who is saying any of that? | 15:08 |
| kanzure | just ignore Stee| | 15:08 |
| diginet | Stee| | 15:08 |
| kanzure | ignore him | 15:08 |
| Stee| | ignore me | 15:08 |
| Stee| | argue with me later in pm if you want so I don't get banned | 15:08 |
| diginet | Basically here's my point: human enhancement has the potential to help a LOT of people. Of course I'm for that. But, with power comes responsibility. What I fear is the devaluation of human life, and the grace consequences | 15:08 |
| kanzure | the reality is that he does not have the technology to force everyone to be enhanced right now | 15:08 |
| diginet | *grave | 15:08 |
| kanzure | theoretically it is possible that in 100 years he might be a super ai thing that will force the planet to succumb to his will | 15:09 |
| kanzure | but you have typial ai run-away scenarios that are more extreme than "everyone being enhanced" to worry about in that scenario anyway | 15:09 |
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| Stee| | my capabilities are irrelevant to diginets concerns, go back to arguing interesting things | 15:09 |
| fenn | arguably paperclips are the supreme form of human existence | 15:09 |
| diginet | Also, a lot of trnashumanist ideas seems to reek of hedonist utopias, which scare me more than anything | 15:10 |
| F71 | hedonism is booooring | 15:10 |
| kanzure | diginet: i think it would be better if your autistic friend had people that loved him and were able to take care of him *regardless* of what people like Stee| want to do to him | 15:10 |
| diginet | kanzure, exactly, thank you :) | 15:10 |
| kanzure | now, his friends might decide that it would be in his interest to undergo some procedure | 15:10 |
| kanzure | or he would decide something, i don't particularly care | 15:10 |
| diginet | If I could help him, of course I would, I see him struggle to exist on his own | 15:10 |
| diginet | what I'm saying is that the noble goal of helping people has the potential to be hijacked by people like Singer who scare the ever-living hell out of me | 15:11 |
| kanzure | yes, well, that's a problem *anyway* in our current society | 15:12 |
| kanzure | so you should think of a general solution | 15:12 |
| fenn | could you elaborate on what it is that peter singer is saying that you disagree with? | 15:12 |
| kanzure | like, what if you had a "Fork everything" button | 15:12 |
| kanzure | and could just take all your technology and infrastructure and libraries with you, to somewhere else where those freaks can't get yuo | 15:12 |
| fenn | i'm reading singer's website and it all looks pretty standard boring bioethics stuff | 15:12 |
| diginet | Well, he thinks that infanticide should be allowed if parents decided they don't feel like dealing with them, regardless of reason | 15:12 |
| diginet | he also thinks disabled babies should be killed | 15:13 |
| kanzure | *should be* or "should be allowed to be"? | 15:13 |
| skorket | diginet, do you think abortion is a crime? | 15:13 |
| diginet | if I answer, will you not get mad? | 15:13 |
| kanzure | "is a crime" is a question of current law | 15:13 |
| skorket | yeah, sorry, I should be more specific...do you think it should be allowed | 15:13 |
| diginet | I will preface it by saying my views on that are seperate | 15:13 |
| fenn | "should be a crime" | 15:13 |
| diginet | I think, that it is disgenous to say that embryos are not humans, the question is whether they are people | 15:14 |
| diginet | that is a tricky question | 15:14 |
| diginet | I don't pretend to know, but the idea of a woman getting an abortion because she was just being irresponsible and doesn't "feel like" having it makes me uncomfortable | 15:14 |
| diginet | I'm not saying all accidental pregnancies are because of irresponsibility though | 15:15 |
| skorket | diginet, may I ask a hypothetical question? Say you want to have a child with someone and two weeks after insemination you discover the baby has severe retardation. Would you consider aborting the fetus in that case and trying again? Or do you consider that unethical? | 15:15 |
| fenn | the idea of being forced to raise an unintentional child for the rest of your life makes me uncomfortable | 15:15 |
| diginet | I don't see how retardation matters, unless the child would just be a vegetable. If the embryo has a deformity that would almost unquestionably result in death, then yes abortion is fine | 15:16 |
| F71 | I bought some Plan B on my lunch break. I'm sure the theoretical baby would have been awesome, but I'd rather have that baby on my own time. | 15:16 |
| skorket | diginet, but that wasn't the hypothetical. | 15:16 |
| diginet | I don't see why the life of a down's syndrome child is less meangful than a normal one, why does intelligence make ones life more valuable? | 15:17 |
| skorket | diginet, or maybe you've answered it. So you consider abortion in that case to be unethical? | 15:17 |
| diginet | yes | 15:17 |
| skorket | ok, just getting a base line | 15:17 |
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| fenn | diginet: how do you feel about killing insects? | 15:17 |
| fenn | what about plants? | 15:17 |
| diginet | skorket, thanks for not being combative, I appreciate that | 15:17 |
| diginet | fenn, if you're going to say that's the same, please don't | 15:18 |
| kanzure | are humans somehow better than plants? | 15:18 |
| fenn | i think there's a gradation | 15:18 |
| kanzure | diginet: if you have a tumor, should you kill it? | 15:18 |
| fenn | in intelligence, not "better", whatever that means | 15:18 |
| kanzure | wait | 15:18 |
| fenn | shh | 15:19 |
| kanzure | if you have a tumor, is it morally repugnant against you to kill it? | 15:19 |
| diginet | an embryo is not a tumor, an embryo is the result of the reproductive mechanism, a tumor is a defect | 15:19 |
| kanzure | tumors are also via reproduction | 15:19 |
| diginet | that's a strawman if I ever heard one | 15:19 |
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| kanzure | how do you think the tumor cells get there? magic? :x | 15:19 |
| diginet | a tumor has no potential to become a seperate organism | 15:19 |
| diginet | yes, you can claim that's true of every cell, with cloning, but that's an artificial process | 15:20 |
| kanzure | not quite true.. you can generally convert any tumor cell into a pluripotent cell | 15:20 |
| diginet | yes, okay look at it like this | 15:20 |
| kanzure | anyway, what do you find special about embryos and fetuses? the brain? | 15:20 |
| diginet | you know the trolly paradox? | 15:20 |
| kanzure | why not scan the brain and toss the fetus | 15:20 |
| kanzure | win-win? | 15:20 |
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| diginet | okay, if my brain is scanned, and then I'm killed, and then that's put into a computer, that's not me | 15:21 |
| diginet | that's a copy of me | 15:21 |
| kanzure | what is "me" | 15:21 |
| diginet | have you seen "The Prestige" ? | 15:21 |
| diginet | unless consciousness is a "thing" it's not just because something is physically identical, that the thread of your consciousness would float over to it | 15:21 |
| * fenn wouldnt mind a few copies hanging around | 15:22 | |
| kanzure | ok you also believe in consciousness | 15:22 |
| kanzure | i am no longer interested in this conversation | 15:22 |
| diginet | wait | 15:22 |
| diginet | hold on | 15:22 |
| diginet | I didn't say I did | 15:22 |
| diginet | I'm no dualist | 15:22 |
| diginet | but I don't buy the idea that our feeling of consciousness is an illusion, what is experiencing that illusion then? | 15:23 |
| kanzure | your brain | 15:23 |
| skorket | diginet, I think you secretely are a dualist. You should examine that in more detail | 15:23 |
| kanzure | your brain is experiencing that illusion | 15:23 |
| diginet | but why does what we call consciousness exist at all? | 15:23 |
| kanzure | i don't call it consciousness | 15:23 |
| kanzure | i call it the brain | 15:23 |
| diginet | why does that illusion exist? | 15:23 |
| kanzure | social pressure | 15:23 |
| diginet | that makes no sense, at all | 15:23 |
| kanzure | "hey man, we all have consciousness, you do too" | 15:24 |
| Stee| | diginet: why does there have to be a why? | 15:24 |
| ybit | thanks for the link fenn | 15:24 |
| ybit | that's pretty amazing | 15:24 |
| fenn | which link? | 15:24 |
| Stee| | I'm willing to say that there's an illusion of consciousness and that I want to maintain it (unlike kanzure) | 15:24 |
| Stee| | but I don't think there's a why | 15:24 |
| ybit | fenn: dslr microscope | 15:25 |
| diginet | but expriencing something requires consciousness, how can one experience an illusion of exprerience? | 15:25 |
| Stee| | that's the homunculus problem | 15:25 |
| diginet | exactly | 15:25 |
| Stee| | consciousness is the illusion, experience is an illusion, all of these things are convenient ways to refer to stuff that doesn't really exist except as a colloquial abstraction | 15:26 |
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| diginet | how could one be self-aware without being conscious? | 15:27 |
| fenn | diginet: it exists because it was evolutionarily more favorable than it not existing | 15:27 |
| Stee| | yeah, these are all words that are useful in conversation, but not so much their own thing | 15:27 |
| diginet | do you believe there is a difference between knowing I exist, and "Kevin keith exists" being stored in my brain | 15:27 |
| fenn | one is declarative and one is procedural knowledge | 15:27 |
| uniqanomaly_ | could you guys theorize at #ai? | 15:27 |
| fenn | uniqanomaly_: it's monthly no-philosophy exception day | 15:28 |
| kanzure | uniqanomaly_: normally i would agree with you | 15:28 |
| kanzure | but he's trying to use this as an argument against transhumanism or something? | 15:28 |
| diginet | I'm not | 15:28 |
| kanzure | i have lost the train of thought then | 15:28 |
| diginet | if you mean transhumanism as improving the quality of people's lives, then sure | 15:29 |
| fenn | it was a guilt by association argument anyway | 15:29 |
| diginet | no, I'm not indicting anyone here | 15:29 |
| kanzure | no i mean transhumanism as in improving *me*, i don't care about other people (except in as much as i make open source things) | 15:29 |
| fenn | we could debate the actual issues instead, that would be more interesting | 15:29 |
| diginet | why don't you care about other people? | 15:29 |
| diginet | I mean, you don't have friends? | 15:30 |
| diginet | family? | 15:30 |
| kanzure | i meant within the context of transhumanism, i don't care about forcing yuo to be enhaned | 15:30 |
| kanzure | *enhanced | 15:30 |
| diginet | oh okay | 15:30 |
| kanzure | that's not particularly my goal in this | 15:30 |
| diginet | well, I guess I don't really care about improving myself, save for my mind | 15:30 |
| diginet | but there's no realistic way to do that right now, that I know of, so it's kind of a moot point | 15:31 |
| kanzure | nootropics? | 15:31 |
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| kanzure | hi juul | 15:31 |
| fenn | "We decide for ourselves in what ways to change or to stay the same. Self-direction means being clear about our values and our purposes. Having clear purpose in life not only brings both practical and emotional rewards but also protects us against manipulation and control by others." | 15:31 |
| juul | hi kanzure | 15:31 |
| diginet | what nootropics are there? | 15:31 |
| fenn | quite a lot | 15:31 |
| Stee| | en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nootropics | 15:32 |
| diginet | such as? you mean, like stimulants? | 15:32 |
| Stee| | http://reddit.com/r/nootropics | 15:32 |
| diginet | I've read that before | 15:32 |
| F71 | Aside from Provigil and amphetamine salts | 15:32 |
| fenn | stimulants work, believe it or not | 15:32 |
| diginet | I take them | 15:32 |
| diginet | for ADHD | 15:32 |
| diginet | they don't make me smarter, just able to concentrate | 15:32 |
| kanzure | what is "smarter" | 15:33 |
| fenn | it's important to lay out in advance the purpose for which you're taking a drug, especially if it's in a category that has abuse potential | 15:33 |
| F71 | I made an smart drink a while back with two grams of piracetam per bottle | 15:33 |
| diginet | what is there in the literature, in the way of rigorous studies on whether they provide any measurable benefit? | 15:34 |
| fenn | F71: i'm sure it tasted disgusting | 15:34 |
| Stee| | diginet: Which ones and in what way? | 15:34 |
| diginet | any | 15:34 |
| F71 | I managed to mask it very well with some concentrated muscat grape juice | 15:34 |
| Stee| | uh | 15:34 |
| Stee| | there's a lot | 15:34 |
| F71 | All it seemed to do was give people nightmares | 15:34 |
| kanzure | diginet: measurable benefits is an interesting question. people claim they can measure "intelligence" but most people can't even define it. | 15:34 |
| Stee| | the dearth of literature is on healthy young (18-35) adults with no mental issues | 15:34 |
| fenn | F71: weird, what else was in it? | 15:34 |
| diginet | well, what about benefits that didn't have scary side effects | 15:35 |
| Stee| | diginet, plenty | 15:35 |
| F71 | Vitamin blend, nothing in too much excess | 15:35 |
| F71 | no caffine | 15:35 |
| Stee| | the racetam family is fantastic for people suffering age related issues, stroke victims (iirc), and some other stuff | 15:35 |
| fenn | caffeine doesn't give you nightmares (you can't sleep! hah) | 15:35 |
| Stee| | uhhh, I want to say certain types of memory loss | 15:35 |
| fenn | verbal memory | 15:35 |
| F71 | Dan Kaminsky wants more, I gave the first few bottles to him | 15:35 |
| F71 | he says it's good with booze | 15:36 |
| Stee| | flavonol has been shown to help verbal memory in a high dose | 15:36 |
| diginet | Well, more specifically, is there anything which has been proven to increase one's maximum intelligence, and not just restore it to what it wa | 15:36 |
| diginet | s | 15:36 |
| Stee| | other flavonoids have helped with similar thing | 15:36 |
| diginet | interesting | 15:36 |
| Stee| | diginet, define maximum intelligence | 15:36 |
| kanzure | diginet: define "intelligence" | 15:36 |
| diginet | well, let's say for something I care about: mathematical reasoning | 15:36 |
| Stee| | concentration, verbal memory, working attention span, working memory (like double n-back), etc. | 15:36 |
| fenn | here's a decent summary of the research on piracetam http://www.smarternootropics.com/table-of-contents/piracetam/ | 15:36 |
| Stee| | we can't measure mathematical reasoning | 15:36 |
| fenn | eh? sure we can | 15:36 |
| fenn | they're called "math tests" | 15:37 |
| diginet | ability to do mental math | 15:37 |
| kanzure | fenn: so give a kid a drug, then give him a calculus 4 test. there's no way he would know what the symbols mean. | 15:37 |
| diginet | Leohnard Euler could supposedly calculate to 5-10 decimal places in his head | 15:37 |
| kanzure | diginet: that's more of a training thing | 15:37 |
| Stee| | right, but you need to set up a way to test it | 15:37 |
| diginet | yeah, you're probably right | 15:37 |
| fenn | kanzure: give a kid a drug and a calculus textbook and a calculus test | 15:37 |
| kanzure | the textbook has to provably not suck | 15:38 |
| diginet | heh, that's asking a lot | 15:38 |
| diginet | in my experience | 15:38 |
| diginet | most suck tremendously | 15:38 |
| ParahSailin_ | wesnoth is a good test | 15:38 |
| fenn | it's more important to have a test at all than to know what the test is testing for | 15:39 |
| fenn | then at least you can say "there was a change" | 15:39 |
| diginet | these things are just so tricky to test | 15:41 |
| diginet | mostly because the concepts themselves are ill-defined | 15:41 |
| fenn | yep | 15:41 |
| kanzure | yep | 15:41 |
| kanzure | yep | 15:41 |
| fenn | this is why we discourage concepts such as "intelligence" and "consciousness" | 15:42 |
| kanzure | also we usually have a no-philosophy policy but i am violating it because i am awful :( | 15:42 |
| fenn | not only are they undefinable, they're un-measurable | 15:42 |
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| fenn | why has the price of piracetam gone up? it's the same stuff | 15:43 |
| fenn | did everyone just forget how to make it? | 15:43 |
| diginet | well I don't pretend to know what consciousness is, my ideas is that there is something which differentiates the brain, and a comparable computer. I don't know what it is, but it's not something metaphysical, just some quirk of natural law we don't understand yet | 15:43 |
| kanzure | Mokbortolan_: weren't you trying to get the price lower? | 15:43 |
| yashgaroth | the threat of regulation tends to make the price go up | 15:43 |
| F71 | I still have a few kilos from my drink experiments, it was 35/ kilo when I got it | 15:44 |
| fenn | it was going up before the fda warning letter | 15:44 |
| diginet | what did the FDA warn? | 15:44 |
| Stee| | fenn: importing it is the same price as before :D | 15:44 |
| fenn | they basically said "stop selling it as a dietary supplement" | 15:44 |
| diginet | ugh dietary supplements | 15:45 |
| fenn | let me guess, you hate vitamins too | 15:46 |
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| Stee| | choline has helped my mom more than anything, the piracetam is just icing on the cake | 15:46 |
| F71 | I didn't put choline in the drink I made because there's nothing that fixes the mouthfeel | 15:47 |
| fenn | before you rail about how dietary supplements are unproven etc., you should know that even simple things like vitamin C or E can be detrimental to health in some situations | 15:47 |
| diginet | no I don't hate them per se | 15:47 |
| Stee| | anything is detrimental at a sufficient dose :V | 15:47 |
| diginet | I just think a lot of those "herbal supplement" people are into a lot of alternate medicine woo | 15:47 |
| fenn | Stee|: this is a normal dose, i.e. 500mg ascorbic acid | 15:48 |
| Stee| | diginet: This is true, but that's not how we use the phrase dietary supplement here | 15:48 |
| F71 | Ray K eats them by the bowl | 15:48 |
| Stee| | F71: yeah, but he at least talks with experts first | 15:48 |
| fenn | there's more alternative medicine out there than researchers and funding to study it | 15:48 |
| Stee| | such as there are experts | 15:48 |
| Stee| | http://web.mit.edu/newsoffice/2012/smart-robotic-sand-0402.html y'all see this? | 15:49 |
| fenn | but ayurveda's been around for thousands of years, in which time they've discovered a thing or two | 15:49 |
| fenn | TCM is kinda quacky | 15:49 |
| fenn | F71: what about other choline precursors like DMAE or centrophenoxine? | 15:50 |
| nmz787 | stee| how can sand pass messages? | 15:51 |
| diginet | ayurveda? you mean Indian medicine? Chakras and stuff? | 15:51 |
| diginet | (or is that something else) | 15:51 |
| F71 | Electrocoupling? | 15:51 |
| F71 | Also, I'm checking to see if DMAE is soluble | 15:52 |
| fenn | chakras is more in the yoga tradition but there's some overlap | 15:52 |
| nmz787 | stee| wait it doesn't seem like this article has anything to do with SiO2 | 15:52 |
| Stee| | 'sand' | 15:52 |
| yashgaroth | dmae is soluble | 15:52 |
| fenn | so is choline | 15:52 |
| diginet | so, fenn why is that believable but the four humours aren't? they both sound like nonsense to me | 15:53 |
| Stee| | the practice as a whole is nonsense | 15:54 |
| Stee| | there are certain medicines found in it that work (ashwagandha) | 15:54 |
| fenn | because they've developed herbs that can be tested for efficacy | 15:54 |
| nmz787 | fenn: the prob with ayurveda is its so large that there are a lot of quacks... mainly because its too complex for laypeople to realize if its truth or not | 15:54 |
| nmz787 | fenn: at least thats what my indian gf says of india | 15:54 |
| nmz787 | its much like how can you trust a scientist, if you really have no idea about science? | 15:55 |
| fenn | i'm not saying you should run out and eat cinnabar because it's in the ayurvedic tradition | 15:55 |
| fenn | but just because quack X talks about Y and Z doesn't mean that you should throw out Z just because Y does nothing | 15:56 |
| fenn | i trust scientists because on average they're right more than they're wrong | 15:56 |
| juul | Stee|, yeah that's interesting. The whole thesis is here: http://dspace.mit.edu/handle/1721.1/60151 | 15:57 |
| kanzure | fenn: you should be using nmz787 to figure out the cutter | 15:58 |
| kanzure | also, diyhpluswiki might be useful for notes on parts/crap | 15:59 |
| juul | kanzure, looks like i'll actually be taking that course Endy is teaching | 16:01 |
| kanzure | show me show me | 16:01 |
| F71 | DMAE will go in revision two of the drink | 16:02 |
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| F71 | pending It doesn't turn the drink into sludge like choline does | 16:03 |
| F71 | or, maybe I can just make it more of a 'smoothie' | 16:03 |
| kanzure | F71: show us your tdcs setup | 16:04 |
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| F71 | It's way easy | 16:05 |
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| F71 | It's just a little Jfet and a resistor set up as a constant current supply | 16:05 |
| F71 | the current scales linearly down with the resistor going up | 16:05 |
| F71 | It'll drive to the voltage of the source, which can be any battery since it tends to drive around four volts | 16:06 |
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| F71 | *any higher voltage batteryright now, I have a trimmer set up in series with the resistor | 16:06 |
| F71 | the trimmer lets me taper on and off | 16:07 |
| F71 | and I have an LED set to show conduction | 16:07 |
| F71 | I have it set to drive a max of 1 ma, and it scales down below a microamp | 16:08 |
| F71 | I'm using big electrodes that I made from shamwow and some copper tape along the back | 16:08 |
| F71 | simple weak KCL electrolyte | 16:08 |
| F71 | and a big moon-boot rubber band to hold them on | 16:08 |
| F71 | They're so broad even a novice to the 10-20 system can hook them up | 16:09 |
| F71 | I'm going to try and 3d print some electrode junk holders so it doesn't look like a heap of crap when I'm hooking it up to strangers | 16:10 |
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| F71 | JFETs are easy to work with. The whole thing took less than twenty minutes to solder together and test. | 16:14 |
| jrayhawk | http://chriskresser.com/chinese-medicine-demystified-part-i-a-case-of-mistaken-identity chinese medicine is also a lot more respectable than people give it credit for | 16:15 |
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| delinquentme | kewl http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1047510073/remee-the-rem-enhancing-lucid-dreaming-mask | 16:21 |
| n_bentha | eh. | 16:23 |
| kanzure | what is #reboot | 16:23 |
| n_bentha | i wonder if lucid dreaming really means that you come to the realization that 'hey i'm in a dream', or if you just do whatever u want and it's cool and u think it's reality? | 16:24 |
| F71 | I watched that show in the 90s | 16:24 |
| n_bentha | i guess it means the former | 16:25 |
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| skorket | some of those kickstarter projects...sheesh | 16:31 |
| F71 | Anybody know a good reason why I should lucid dream? | 16:32 |
| F71 | It just seems kind of masturbatory to me | 16:32 |
| kanzure | because sleep is boring | 16:32 |
| Replop | and sometimes dreams can be better than porn | 16:33 |
| F71 | Sleep is a jump | 16:33 |
| Replop | so yes, masturbatory indeed. | 16:33 |
| Replop | sleep is a necessary downtime for maintenance of your fleshware | 16:34 |
| n_bentha | I dunno guys. I have awesome dreams all the time | 16:34 |
| n_bentha | I do crazy shit, sex flying fighting etc. | 16:34 |
| Replop | at the same time ? | 16:34 |
| kanzure | well aren't you lucky | 16:34 |
| n_bentha | But I usually don't realize I'm in the dream. I think it's real. And then I wake up to my alarm. | 16:34 |
| F71 | Wow, you dream of the movie shoot'em up? | 16:34 |
| n_bentha | Lol not that specific movie. | 16:35 |
| F71 | It's the only decent movie I know with a fight scene that is also a sex scene | 16:36 |
| F71 | well, consensual sex | 16:39 |
| skorket | Interesting, R. Kurzweil is essentially a proponent of intellectual property rights? | 16:40 |
| kanzure | oh very much so | 16:40 |
| kanzure | http://heybryan.org/fernhout/ | 16:40 |
| skorket | Yeah, I'm reading it now | 16:41 |
| skorket | He definitely misses some things | 16:41 |
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| delinquentme | bc sleep is boring | 16:45 |
| delinquentme | kanz wins | 16:45 |
| n_bentha | yashgaroth: that method didn't work for the transformation... | 16:46 |
| n_bentha | all the plates w/ the cells that i had mixed w/ the dna had nothing | 16:46 |
| n_bentha | and the control plate had lots of bacteria on the lb, and even had cell growing on the kanamycin | 16:47 |
| yashgaroth | :/ | 16:50 |
| yashgaroth | control plate being plasmid without insert? | 16:51 |
| n_bentha | i did construct 1, construct 2, original plasmid, and NO dna added. | 16:52 |
| n_bentha | oh there was 1 colony on one of the plates that had the construct that also has rfp added. | 16:52 |
| skorket | From reading the beginning of "The Singularity is Near" he already makes some mistakes as to the nature of computation. Most of the section about Wolframs cellular automata is mis informed... | 16:53 |
| skorket | Anyway, the main thrust of his argument, the exponential growth, is the big thing to take away... | 16:54 |
| yashgaroth | so you only got colonies with the original plasmid? | 16:54 |
| skorket | Sorry to go on about it but it just dawned on me how right the exponential growth thing is | 16:54 |
| yashgaroth | (and that one rfp colony) | 16:54 |
| n_bentha | no yashgaroth, that plate was empty too | 16:54 |
| yashgaroth | oh dear | 16:55 |
| n_bentha | only 1 rfp colony. | 16:55 |
| n_bentha | but i'm not sure if it wasn't contamination? | 16:55 |
| yashgaroth | well if you have no-dna cells growing on kan, that's a problem right there | 16:55 |
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| yashgaroth | but if you don't get any with the unmodified backbone then that's more worrying | 16:56 |
| n_bentha | i know >.< | 16:59 |
| n_bentha | did the dna kill the cells? | 16:59 |
| n_bentha | i'll try again. | 16:59 |
| n_bentha | oh and the guy didn't purify the dna. it's apparently an excessive step. | 16:59 |
| yashgaroth | fffff | 16:59 |
| kanzure | haha | 16:59 |
| n_bentha | chinese biological techniques =/= german biological techniques | 17:00 |
| kanzure | ok fix the dna then repeat everything | 17:00 |
| n_bentha | purify the plasmid* | 17:00 |
| yashgaroth | strictly speaking you don't need to purify after the ligation, but if it's going this badly then it's worthwhile | 17:00 |
| yashgaroth | at least run some on a gel | 17:01 |
| n_bentha | i didn't have gasoline, so i just used diesel. now idk why my car won't start?!?! must be the car's fault! | 17:01 |
| Replop | before begining on diybio, you guys all had some bio-related degree, I presume ? | 17:01 |
| yashgaroth | I was getting mine when I got into diybio, but yes | 17:02 |
| Replop | I see | 17:02 |
| yashgaroth | surprisingly few people in diybio actually have a bio degree though | 17:02 |
| n_bentha | sadly | 17:03 |
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| kanzure | Replop: nope, i didn't have a biology-related degree | 17:03 |
| yashgaroth | so 90% of the discussion is "hay guyz I wanna make glowing yogurt how do I dna a plasmid into primers???" | 17:04 |
| yashgaroth | yes but at least you make an effort to learn bio kanzure | 17:04 |
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| kanzure | vitalism! | 17:04 |
| n_bentha | hehe. glowing yogurt. so many kids say that even in school | 17:05 |
| n_bentha | z0mG luciferase glows! | 17:05 |
| kanzure | "glow under UV" isn't that cool :\ | 17:05 |
| n_bentha | stupid RFP | 17:05 |
| yashgaroth | haha 'instant glowing yogurt, just add luciferin' | 17:06 |
| n_bentha | ke ke ke | 17:06 |
| n_bentha | can we sell that | 17:06 |
| n_bentha | ? | 17:06 |
| yashgaroth | I don't feel like milking fireflies or however it is they get luciferin | 17:06 |
| Replop | would it still be edible ? | 17:06 |
| yashgaroth | if you can eat fireflies | 17:06 |
| kanzure | Replop: they are making fun of you | 17:06 |
| nmz787 | fluoro yogurt is def booorrrriiiiinnnnggg | 17:07 |
| F71 | Lucifer tandoori | 17:07 |
| nmz787 | once you do gfp e coli at least | 17:07 |
| yashgaroth | what no we're not | 17:07 |
| n_bentha | i've done gfp, cfp, yfp, rfp n. bentha | 17:07 |
| Replop | and beyond diybio, there isn't other communities meeting here , like the makerbot fans ? | 17:08 |
| n_bentha | i've done transgenic xenopus | 17:08 |
| n_bentha | 007 in xeno-pussy! | 17:09 |
| n_bentha | j/k | 17:09 |
| jrayhawk | while there are plenty of 3d printer fans here, they do most of their discussion in #reprap | 17:09 |
| nmz787 | transBio? | 17:10 |
| skorket | is it just me or did diybio kind of fall by the way side of late? It seems like there was a lot of press a couple of years ago, then a bunch of unfulfilled promises then crickets. | 17:10 |
| nmz787 | i.e. transforming into a company? | 17:10 |
| yashgaroth | it gets a remarkable amount of press for how little actually happens | 17:10 |
| nmz787 | seems like a lot of people that used to be active arent anymore | 17:10 |
| skorket | yeah, what happened with that? | 17:11 |
| nmz787 | that may be because people are actually doing stuff now.... or because they got bored | 17:11 |
| kanzure | well | 17:11 |
| yashgaroth | or got jobs | 17:11 |
| kanzure | there's biocurious and genspace | 17:11 |
| kanzure | and then there's all the discussions on the regional lists that they don't ever forward | 17:11 |
| skorket | I mean, I think there's a period where people are hunkering down and actually doing the work, like you and kanzure, but it also seems like there was a lot of excitement and then it just dropped off | 17:11 |
| kanzure | biocurious has a few private lists | 17:11 |
| kanzure | anyway, there's *tons* of biocurious/genspace activity | 17:11 |
| kanzure | but that's not really DIY i guess | 17:12 |
| kanzure | so the way it happened.. | 17:12 |
| kanzure | was that back in 2007-2008 there was hplusroadmap | 17:12 |
| n_bentha | :O | 17:12 |
| kanzure | and we started talking about biohacking | 17:12 |
| kanzure | mac cowell turned up and created a diybio group | 17:12 |
| kanzure | he used to be in here as uh cis-action | 17:13 |
| kanzure | the diybio group was always more popular than the hplusroadmap list | 17:13 |
| kanzure | also don't use http://bit.ly/diybionews2 to indicate the level of news activity.. i sorta missed a lot this year heh | 17:14 |
| n_bentha | but only lik 8 ppl are ever in the diybio channel? | 17:14 |
| kanzure | because hplusroadmap is bigger | 17:15 |
| kanzure | n_bentha: the diybio group is 2000 members | 17:15 |
| kanzure | http://groups.google.com/group/diybio/about | 17:15 |
| kanzure | aw hell they broke /about ? | 17:15 |
| kanzure | https://groups.google.com/forum/?fromgroups#!members/diybio | 17:16 |
| kanzure | and apparently you can't sort by reverse join date | 17:16 |
| n_bentha | hmm | 17:17 |
| n_bentha | kanzure: has luciferase yogurt been created yet? | 17:17 |
| n_bentha | shouldn't someone have stocks of it somehwere? | 17:18 |
| kanzure | no idea. i think most people are doing fluorescent yogurts. | 17:18 |
| katsmeow-afk | let me ask the obvious question then: does the flourescence or glowing cease as it passes thru you to your personal exit port? | 17:20 |
| kanzure | there are all sorts of chemicals in your body that respond to UV stimulation to some extent | 17:20 |
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| yashgaroth | protein-based fluorescence won't survive the digestive tract, no | 17:21 |
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| katsmeow-afk | i was more thinking of the afterglow, prior to flushing, being somewhat freaky | 17:21 |
| katsmeow-afk | ok | 17:21 |
| n_bentha | lol | 17:24 |
| delinquentme | what are those full body lounge suits that were recent informercials? | 17:25 |
| delinquentme | the brand name of the forever azy | 17:25 |
| delinquentme | forever lazy* | 17:25 |
| n_bentha | snuggies? | 17:26 |
| delinquentme | yeh | 17:30 |
| delinquentme | already got it | 17:30 |
| delinquentme | nmz787, you're from pitt? | 17:30 |
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| nmz787 | yes | 17:34 |
| nmz787 | you? | 17:34 |
| delinquentme | annd what goes in washcloths to make people pass out? | 17:34 |
| delinquentme | pittsburgh | 17:34 |
| delinquentme | haha | 17:34 |
| nmz787 | ? | 17:34 |
| nmz787 | chloroform? | 17:34 |
| kanzure | yes he's from pittsburgh | 17:35 |
| nmz787 | where abouts? | 17:35 |
| nmz787 | I'm from northside/southside | 17:35 |
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| delinquentme | nmz787, oakland :D | 17:49 |
| delinquentme | dirty south o | 17:49 |
| delinquentme | like past the blvd | 17:49 |
| delinquentme | i was in southside for a while too ... was @ alphalab nmz787 | 17:52 |
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| kanzure | from now on i'm calling BeautifulSoup simply "bsoup" | 18:23 |
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| kanzure | hi azonenberg | 18:25 |
| azonenberg | hi | 18:25 |
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| kanzure | are you doing packaging? | 18:25 |
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| ybit | what are we packaging? | 18:26 |
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| kanzure | ybit: his homecmos work | 18:28 |
| kanzure | er, you package microchips into ICs | 18:28 |
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| delinquentme | beautiful soup eh | 18:38 |
| juul | home cmos? that sounds fun! | 18:42 |
| kanzure | juul: http://code.google.com/p/homecmos/ | 18:42 |
| n_bentha | mmm soup | 18:44 |
| n_bentha | has anyone put the enzymes to make l-theanine into yogurt? | 18:44 |
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| juul | cool | 18:48 |
| nmz787 | delinquentme alphalab? | 18:48 |
| delinquentme | ya | 18:49 |
| delinquentme | accelerator | 18:49 |
| delinquentme | http://www.alphalab.org/ | 18:50 |
| nmz787 | oO | 18:52 |
| nmz787 | that looks pretty cool | 18:52 |
| _Sketch_ | HomeCMOS, hmmm. | 18:58 |
| delinquentme | nmz787, its alright | 19:00 |
| juul | what about that lady who called herself chipgirl (i think) | 19:00 |
| juul | she was restoring old electron microscopes and making her own transistors from scratch | 19:00 |
| juul | can't seem to find her online though | 19:00 |
| delinquentme | i was in a different company | 19:01 |
| delinquentme | chip girl huh | 19:01 |
| kanzure | juul: jerri ellsworth? | 19:01 |
| juul | quite possibly :) | 19:02 |
| juul | thanks | 19:02 |
| katsmeow-afk | she made the transistors too? | 19:02 |
| juul | if she's who i'm thinking of then she made a few transistors from scratch | 19:03 |
| juul | that's a long time ago though | 19:03 |
| delinquentme | what about the open source electron microscope | 19:03 |
| delinquentme | PS | 19:03 |
| delinquentme | what did halcyon do with their microscopes?? | 19:04 |
| ParahSailin_ | heh halcyon | 19:04 |
| delinquentme | lol buncha haters !!!!!!!!! | 19:05 |
| * katsmeow-afk cannot find 100mg spoons, and is pondering drilling a divot into an old toothbrush handle to be one | 19:12 | |
| n_bentha | http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/jsfa.4373/full | 19:16 |
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| n_bentha | :D :D :D | 19:16 |
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| delinquentme | katsmeow-afk, 100mg spoons? | 19:19 |
| juul | n_bentha, interesting | 19:29 |
| ybit | http://www.z88.org/ :: more FEA software | 19:36 |
| kanzure | "Import of COSMOS und NASTRAN files from Pro/ENGINEER (Option Pro/MECHANICA) is supported" | 19:38 |
| kanzure | sounds unlikely. | 19:38 |
| delinquentme | ProE is huge... how do you even begin to support that | 19:41 |
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| delinquentme | updates to google http://insidesearch.blogspot.com/2012/04/search-quality-highlights-50-changes.html | 20:27 |
| nmz787 | kanzure: what do you think about alphalabs? | 20:32 |
| delinquentme | what is "devOps" | 20:33 |
| delinquentme | lol no nmz787 dont come here | 20:33 |
| delinquentme | san fran | 20:33 |
| nmz787 | i'm /from/ there | 20:33 |
| delinquentme | you're out there already | 20:33 |
| nmz787 | nah | 20:33 |
| delinquentme | no? | 20:33 |
| nmz787 | i'm upstat NY | 20:33 |
| delinquentme | didnt i see LBL? | 20:33 |
| nmz787 | yea | 20:33 |
| nmz787 | there remotely | 20:33 |
| delinquentme | oh past experience | 20:33 |
| delinquentme | oh damn | 20:33 |
| delinquentme | helly jelly | 20:33 |
| kanzure | nmz787: there's tons of incubators out there | 20:34 |
| nmz787 | where? | 20:34 |
| nmz787 | out? | 20:34 |
| kanzure | but it's still hella hard to get anyone to accept an open source hardware company | 20:34 |
| nmz787 | yeha | 20:34 |
| nmz787 | yeah | 20:34 |
| nmz787 | dont tell them its OSH | 20:34 |
| kanzure | nmz787: for instance.. techstars is a popular yc alternative | 20:34 |
| nmz787 | lol | 20:34 |
| delinquentme | cash is king | 20:35 |
| delinquentme | make shit | 20:35 |
| delinquentme | bring in money | 20:35 |
| delinquentme | viola | 20:35 |
| delinquentme | should I call up mr gene tomorrow | 20:35 |
| nmz787 | y? | 20:35 |
| delinquentme | and tell them ill give them a deal if they front us $40 | 20:35 |
| delinquentme | "pre order" | 20:35 |
| kanzure | mrgene was acquired | 20:35 |
| delinquentme | AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHAHAHA | 20:36 |
| delinquentme | kanz. | 20:36 |
| delinquentme | kanz | 20:36 |
| delinquentme | kanz | 20:36 |
| delinquentme | you've just done an evil thing http://deathbycaptcha.com/ | 20:36 |
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| delinquentme | that. | 20:36 |
| delinquentme | is awesome | 20:36 |
| kanzure | i use them all the time | 20:36 |
| kanzure | i hate captchas | 20:37 |
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| delinquentme | thats so much good | 20:41 |
| delinquentme | totally a mechanical turk implementation | 20:41 |
| delinquentme | wish i would have thought of it | 20:41 |
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| kanzure | delinquentme: there's other sites that do the same thing.. but after trying the others, i ended up staying with that | 20:44 |
| delinquentme | http://www.agilediagnosis.com/images/product/index--example_ddx.png | 21:01 |
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| Stee| | nmz787, what part of upstate | 21:04 |
| Stee| | oh, RIT | 21:04 |
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| kanzure | wb yashgaroth | 22:16 |
| yashgaroth | ya whatup | 22:17 |
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| kanzure | how much energy would it take to use a laser to sequence nucleotides in another galaxy? | 22:44 |
| kanzure | assume said nucleotides are in a nebula? | 22:44 |
| yashgaroth | uhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh | 22:49 |
| yashgaroth | infinite energy, approximately | 22:50 |
| kanzure | i don't think so | 22:50 |
| kanzure | i did the math once on an intergalactic laser cutter | 22:50 |
| yashgaroth | this is why I wished I learned math | 22:50 |
| kanzure | for instance, using a laser to heat/cool distant planets for chemistry | 22:50 |
| yashgaroth | I always imagined the intermediate stage for an intergalactic civilization was shooting a comms laser to every visible star | 22:51 |
| yashgaroth | but not for chemistry purposes | 22:51 |
| kanzure | well, since light is the fastest means of travel you might as well just shoot lasers to construct yourself at the other end | 22:52 |
| kanzure | for instance.. with chemistry | 22:52 |
| yashgaroth | oh no 30 seconds in and we're back to whether a copy of oneself is an equivalent consciousness | 22:52 |
| kanzure | huh? i don't think so | 22:53 |
| yashgaroth | oh good | 22:53 |
| kanzure | i don't understand how you got there | 22:53 |
| yashgaroth | because that whole argument always got to me | 22:53 |
| yashgaroth | I mean taking a mind copy and creating it somewhere else | 22:53 |
| yashgaroth | and considering that construct as oneself | 22:54 |
| yashgaroth | plus, lasers | 22:54 |
| kanzure | yeah but i don't see how you got to me claiming anything about selfhood from lasers | 22:54 |
| yashgaroth | "construct yourself at the other end" | 22:55 |
| kanzure | *construct your cargo | 22:56 |
| yashgaroth | ahhh okay | 22:56 |
| yashgaroth | check back in 10 years when the LHC pays off | 22:58 |
| nmz787 | you've all seen this? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c-SSu3tJ3ns | 22:59 |
| nmz787 | and the gimp plugin http://liquidrescale.wikidot.com/en:download-page-sources | 22:59 |
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| nmz787 | no one awake? | 23:34 |
| kanzure | not really | 23:34 |
| * kanzure sleeps | 23:34 | |
| nmz787 | well GFP yogurt or whatever you want is very close/easy | 23:34 |
| nmz787 | http://www.scribd.com/doc/87924827/Appl-Environ-Microbiol-2011-Douglas-7365-71 | 23:34 |
| katsmeow-afk | nope | 23:34 |
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| nmz787 | guten nacth | 23:36 |
| katsmeow-afk | gnite | 23:37 |
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| kanzure | neat.. auto sql injections http://sqlmap.sourceforge.net/ | 23:41 |
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| yashgaroth | forgive my limited programming knowledge, but are sql injection exploits basically just entering "))) give.admin.to(userX)" and hoping the input gets read as source code? | 23:43 |
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| ThomasEgi | https://xkcd.com/327/ | 23:44 |
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| yashgaroth | yeah basically | 23:44 |
| nmz787 | kanzure: that does look pretty coole | 23:44 |
| kanzure | yashgaroth: yes | 23:45 |
| yashgaroth | okay just checking | 23:45 |
| kanzure | yashgaroth: it's more like using '"` and then checking if this causes the page to throw some errors | 23:46 |
| kanzure | or looking for local file inclusion bugs or remote file inclusion vulnerabilities, etc. etc.. | 23:46 |
| yashgaroth | I do sometimes which I got into programming, as unlike DNA you don't need to pay per character entered | 23:48 |
| -!- Guest86800 is now known as Coornail_ | 23:48 | |
| yashgaroth | err wish* | 23:58 |
| --- Log closed Wed Apr 04 00:00:01 2012 | ||
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