| --- Log opened Tue Apr 10 00:00:29 2012 | ||
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| diginet | wow, yeast nutrients are super cheap | 00:09 |
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| diginet | could I use those protein powders they make for body builders for my nutrient broth? | 01:44 |
| yashgaroth | maybe | 01:46 |
| * yashgaroth sleeps | 01:47 | |
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| diginet | NO YOU ARE NOT ALLOWED TO SLEEP | 01:48 |
| diginet | :( | 01:48 |
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| Utopiah | http://www.cyborgology.org/theorizingtheweb/2012/ | 02:18 |
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| diginet | oh guess what everyone: I thought of a cool new name for my spider silk fiber thing: Serylar | 02:40 |
| diginet | thoughts? | 02:40 |
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| strangewarp | diginet: Sounds decent enough. Now make some :P | 02:56 |
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| delinquentme | herk derk merpa derr | 03:09 |
| diginet | strangewarp, I'm working on that! lol | 03:12 |
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| kanzure | boop | 06:43 |
| phryk | kanzure: I'mma boop your head now. | 06:45 |
| * phryk boops kanzure on the head. | 06:45 | |
| phryk | \o/ | 06:45 |
| kanzure | hello phryk | 06:48 |
| _Sketch_ | boop | 06:49 |
| phryk | ^_^ | 06:49 |
| phryk | kanzure: You didn't by chance play around with the thought of custom-made functional clothing, did you? | 06:50 |
| kanzure | i played around with the thought of no clothing, but it didn't go anywhere | 06:50 |
| _Sketch_ | Functional clothing? | 06:51 |
| phryk | _Sketch_: Clothing with more function that just to make you not-naked :P | 06:53 |
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| phryk | I may start a little project to do something like an 'urban armor', a roughly stitched robust set of clothing with some strengthened areas (maybe using cordura) and if possible some kind of modular system to have little gadgets on it (changeable pockets, possibilites to attach various other stuff) | 06:55 |
| phryk | I've pondered the thought for well over 2 years now and think I should finally implement something. | 06:56 |
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| _Sketch_ | Sounds awesome. | 07:06 |
| phryk | Yeah, sounds awesome, but let's see how far I can go with it, since my motor skills and my general motivation suck :P | 07:07 |
| phryk | I'll be asking one of my roommates a whole bunch of dumb questions this evening, hoping it'll make planning easier :P | 07:07 |
| archels | Will it have integrated heating/cooling? | 07:12 |
| archels | If so, I'll take one... | 07:12 |
| phryk | archels: I do have to research what materials to use. | 07:13 |
| phryk | There are nice breathing materials out there. Have to evaluate what is possible. | 07:14 |
| phryk | But it won't have electrical heating. | 07:14 |
| archels | :( | 07:14 |
| archels | I think a practical heating, and perhaps even cooling system, is totally feasible now with battery energy densities. | 07:14 |
| phryk | I want the 'armor' itself to be completely without electronics. But the 'plug-in' thing I want might enable that in the future. However up to now I've just had a few thoughts and yet have to do any real planning and implementations. | 07:15 |
| _Sketch_ | What is the best battery energy density, anyway? Can I make a portable electrolaser yet? ;) | 07:15 |
| phryk | archels: Materials that breathe well could handle that problem without need for batteries. | 07:15 |
| archels | Breating doesn't cut it for me when it's 30C out and as damp as the bottom of the ocean. | 07:16 |
| phryk | true that. but if i ever get to build a full system, it should be multilayered with multiple plug-in possibilities, so you ought to be able to place something to cool you down in there :P | 07:17 |
| phryk | however I won't manufacture it, it'll be openly released so you can build/sew your own though :P | 07:18 |
| archels | If you want a system like that, it'll have to be integrated into the clothing, e.g. a tube carrying water spiralling around, and perhaps a number of batteries distributed across so as to spread out the weight. | 07:21 |
| archels | So no summer cooling system plug-in/on. :( | 07:21 |
| phryk | archels: of course you can. | 07:22 |
| phryk | you can build the cooling system as one piece with the tubes and everything and just snap it in the clothing as innermost layer. | 07:22 |
| archels | I doubt that'll work very well, in terms of comfort, strength (will come undone) and function. | 07:23 |
| phryk | you now like you have some winter jackets where you can take that fluffy thing out. | 07:23 |
| phryk | I think 'lining' is the correct word. | 07:24 |
| archels | fluffly lining seems quite a distance removed from an advanced active cooling system. :) | 07:25 |
| phryk | I just meant the way it is fastened to the jacket :P | 07:26 |
| phryk | but tbh i want to avoid zippers if possible. | 07:26 |
| archels | sounds wise. velcro? | 07:26 |
| phryk | if you need to change a zipper it's practically a death sentence for the whole thing… | 07:27 |
| phryk | nah, velcro looses strength over time. | 07:27 |
| archels | aha | 07:27 |
| phryk | I don't know the word of what I want to use. | 07:28 |
| phryk | basically the same principle as most shoes use. You have a sort of yarn that you fasten through a few wholes. | 07:28 |
| phryk | If the metal things holding open the hole are robust enough, that is practically indestructible. | 07:28 |
| phryk | I'd also sew around them so that if one get's lost it doesn't mean the fabric will 'dissolve'. | 07:29 |
| phryk | hard to explain it all when I don't even know the right words in my first language… | 07:31 |
| archels | laced, sure | 07:31 |
| phryk | yeah. | 07:32 |
| phryk | if one of the laces rips, no problem, very easy to replace. | 07:32 |
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| phryk | I basically want to build the sort of clothing that I could wear if we had a zombie apocalypse. | 07:35 |
| phryk | practical, robust, resilient, easy to maintain. | 07:36 |
| phryk | and there is my first plug-in project: being able to attach a machety to my back :D | 07:37 |
| phryk | machate* | 07:38 |
| archels | heh, heh | 07:38 |
| ParahSailin__ | dont use cotton | 07:39 |
| ParahSailin__ | cotton kills | 07:39 |
| phryk | ParahSailin__: why? | 07:41 |
| phryk | Was thinking about using only synthetic textilia btw. | 07:42 |
| phryk | afaik there is a whole range of cordura products, just have no clue if they are any good. | 07:42 |
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| ParahSailin__ | cotton gets wet, you get cold | 07:50 |
| ParahSailin__ | and heavy | 07:50 |
| phryk | Yup. | 07:53 |
| phryk | The outside should be somewhat water repellent. | 07:53 |
| phryk | I think my first try for the upper part will be cotton though, mostly because it's cheap and I have no practical experience with sewing. | 07:54 |
| phryk | I guess I'll have to do a cotton prototype first for just about everything in order to find out how to properly shape it so it sits comfortable and allows the needed range of movement. | 07:55 |
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| ParahSailin__ | i have a preference for wool because if theres a fire wool will not fuse to your skin | 08:03 |
| phryk | I hate wool because it's itchy :P | 08:03 |
| ParahSailin__ | thats coarse yarn | 08:04 |
| phryk | but the clothing melting onto my skin isn't a nice thought, either :D | 08:04 |
| ParahSailin__ | a nice weave of wool shouldnt be itchy | 08:04 |
| phryk | mhh wool sounds nice (reading wikipedia) | 08:06 |
| phryk | thermoregulative, somewhat water-repellent… | 08:06 |
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| delinquentme | <3 | 08:55 |
| delinquentme | LUV U GAIZ | 08:55 |
| delinquentme | yes even u kanzure ! | 08:55 |
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| Vicarious | hi | 09:02 |
| delinquentme | you too Vicarious | 09:02 |
| Vicarious | *hug* | 09:03 |
| Vicarious | how are you? | 09:05 |
| delinquentme | doing well got back from the gym | 09:07 |
| delinquentme | ate healthy food | 09:07 |
| delinquentme | about to get some more ice black coffee | 09:07 |
| Vicarious | awesome | 09:07 |
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| F71 | okay, caught up | 09:31 |
| F71 | Phryk, consider scotchguard | 09:32 |
| F71 | also, based on your description (laced) it sounds like you're reinventing the tactical corset | 09:32 |
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| kanzure | cory_tobin: hi | 09:35 |
| F71 | fenn I just got my 430EZ, too. I have really tiny arms that go all the way to the last buckle-hole, and it's smaller than a lot of 'smart' watches I've looked at. | 09:35 |
| F71 | The altimeter really impresses me, it has resolution better than a foot, somehow. I've been testing it on a 200 ft ladder. | 09:36 |
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| delinquentme | F71, you have a 200 foot ladder...? | 09:40 |
| delinquentme | and tactical corsets ! nom | 09:40 |
| F71 | In my bag of holding | 09:40 |
| F71 | Nah, there's an abandoned building with a ladder in the elevator shaft, right by my house | 09:40 |
| F71 | http://www.tacticalcorsets.com/ | 09:41 |
| F71 | highly modular. IIRC they came out of noisebridge. | 09:41 |
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| delinquentme | haha | 09:51 |
| delinquentme | F71, so I think i found myself a sensor @ usdigital | 09:51 |
| delinquentme | not the cheapest .. but hey! | 09:51 |
| F71 | which one? | 09:52 |
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| delinquentme | http://www.usdigital.com/products/encoders/incremental/modules/em1 | 09:59 |
| delinquentme | these guys ... now i just gotta see about mounting for that and the strip | 10:00 |
| roksprok_ | what are you making? | 10:01 |
| kanzure | dooms day device | 10:01 |
| delinquentme | roksprok, its just a hyper compact linear accelerated fusion lance | 10:02 |
| roksprok_ | laser cutter? | 10:02 |
| delinquentme | just you know to lance through 5' concrete walls | 10:02 |
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| delinquentme | also! http://www.robots.com/kuka | 10:02 |
| delinquentme | pretty | 10:02 |
| roksprok_ | why...do you see needing that? | 10:02 |
| roksprok_ | should i be stocking my bomb shelter? | 10:03 |
| delinquentme | no you should buy one from me! | 10:04 |
| roksprok_ | is this to make sure the quest for transhumanism goes on after the zombies come | 10:04 |
| roksprok_ | yay existential risk reduction | 10:05 |
| kanzure | delinquentme: if you like KUKA.. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TGCiJvKaZtQ | 10:05 |
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| delinquentme | GOD they're beautiful no? | 10:08 |
| kanzure | it was on my playlist :x http://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=FL1sapBsRQ1__rgp7qWs0cow&feature=mh_lolz | 10:09 |
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| delinquentme | kanz I cant help but think that I need more exposure inside the automation world | 10:11 |
| delinquentme | as of this morning I've come to realize something about academia | 10:11 |
| kanzure | you've finally realized that academia sucks? | 10:12 |
| delinquentme | I really should not be working with them. | 10:12 |
| kanzure | automation exposure: http://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PL0EB93E6E02E5CF17&feature=plcp | 10:12 |
| delinquentme | I think they're always going to have sufficient grad students to throw at stupid problems .. and they're simply not properly incentivized to improve | 10:13 |
| delinquentme | SO I need to just talk with tons of people in private industry | 10:13 |
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| delinquentme | friction welding is awesome | 10:19 |
| archels | delinquentme, re that sensor, virtually any old inkjet printer will contain that, and an encoder strip. | 10:20 |
| delinquentme | haha yeah | 10:21 |
| delinquentme | i want more KUKA robot assembly videos | 10:26 |
| delinquentme | i wanna see the GUTS | 10:26 |
| phryk | F71: i don't only want a corset. I want the whole clothing set to be like that. | 10:26 |
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| delinquentme | phryk, you building corsets? | 10:29 |
| delinquentme | i mean clothing for post apoc? | 10:29 |
| phryk | I'm planning to, but no corsets :P | 10:31 |
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| kanzure | this csv file has a random newline in one of its columns :( | 10:37 |
| archels | might be within spec | 10:37 |
| archels | something about quotes? | 10:37 |
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| _Sketch_ | I believe newlines are within spec. | 11:14 |
| _Sketch_ | so long as they're in quotes, yes. | 11:15 |
| _Sketch_ | .csv files have very few rules. | 11:15 |
| katsmeow-afk | something odd about http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TGCiJvKaZtQ ,,,, there's a human painting the robots | 11:17 |
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| kanzure | _Sketch_: except there are two types of lines in this file, too | 11:24 |
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| kanzure | "I actually saw Thad in school walking around with his "glass". The Google version looks way better and a lot less geekier (and less creepier) than the thing he used to wear to say the least." | 11:39 |
| kanzure | http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3822417 | 11:39 |
| kanzure | increase creepiness! | 11:39 |
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| F71 | phryk, I've got these 5.11 pants. | 12:04 |
| F71 | I got them on sale, they're way overbuilt and covered in pockets. | 12:04 |
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| F71 | Extra layers of fabric in the areas that wear, triple seams, and fancy fabric that's breathy and strong | 12:05 |
| F71 | There's an internal pocket that I took advantage of, the pair I'm wearing right now has internal kneepads that I made from neoprene | 12:06 |
| F71 | Neither the wearer nor an observer would know they were installed, they shift into place from the thigh to the knee when the knees bend | 12:07 |
| F71 | I can jump and land knee-first onto concrete, and it feels to me as if I were doing it onto a foam mattress | 12:08 |
| F71 | It really opens up the ability to comfortably get around on one's knees, especially for an extended period of time | 12:09 |
| delinquentme | .... | 12:20 |
| delinquentme | ahem? | 12:20 |
| delinquentme | F71, what kind of work do you do again? | 12:21 |
| delinquentme | Also if you need to sneak things around normal hanes underwear have a hidden compartment between the seams | 12:22 |
| delinquentme | ( boxer briefs ) | 12:22 |
| @fenn | omg matcha is way stronger than regular green tea | 12:27 |
| @fenn | i might have overdone it | 12:27 |
| diginet | what are we even talking about!?!? | 12:28 |
| * kanzure pokes fenn | 12:29 | |
| @fenn | ow | 12:30 |
| delinquentme | umm | 12:30 |
| delinquentme | wait. | 12:30 |
| delinquentme | WTH | 12:30 |
| delinquentme | kanzure, | 12:30 |
| delinquentme | QUICK | 12:30 |
| delinquentme | ideaz | 12:30 |
| delinquentme | ruby .. built on a C core... ja? so although python is the sci standard | 12:31 |
| diginet | Python? the Sci standard? Noooooooooooooooooooooooooo! | 12:31 |
| delinquentme | are there advantages of a Ruby and C combination when we're talking about flashing chips? | 12:31 |
| diginet | LISP IS THE ONE TRUE LANGUAGE | 12:31 |
| delinquentme | ONE LANGUAGE TO RULE THEM BALL | 12:31 |
| F71 | I work in software QA, but I can think of multiple lines of work that hidden kneepads would come in handy for. | 12:32 |
| diginet | ONE LANGUAGE TO FIND THEM, ONE LANGUAGE TO BRING THEM ALL AND IN THE DARKNESS BIND THEM | 12:33 |
| F71 | Like server maintenance, plumbing, law enforcement, and the sexual industry. | 12:33 |
| kanzure | diginet: please, just stop the trolling :( | 12:33 |
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| kanzure | scipy is really quite useful. numpy too. | 12:33 |
| * diginet has gone from intrigued to disgusted | 12:33 | |
| katsmeow-afk | roofing, flooring, auto repair | 12:33 |
| diginet | kanzure, I'm really not trying to troll :( | 12:33 |
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| delinquentme | but i was serious about the hidden pocket in hanes mens boxer briefs | 12:34 |
| katsmeow-afk | F71, honest thanks for pointing out the 5.11 pants | 12:34 |
| delinquentme | they're close enough to the nuts that no one questions it | 12:34 |
| F71 | That's so you can pull your junk through the seam | 12:34 |
| diginet | speaking of underwear, what is the point of the flap that I presume is to be used to urinate? does ANYONE actually use that? | 12:34 |
| kanzure | F71: to be fair, it doesn't come with an instruction manual ;) | 12:34 |
| diginet | That CAN'T be comfortable | 12:34 |
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| katsmeow-afk | i don't | 12:35 |
| F71 | More modern breifs have the pass-through oriented 90 degrees to the norm, which makes them more comfortable | 12:35 |
| kanzure | delinquentme: what did you need ideas for? sorry, i don't understand | 12:35 |
| F71 | Personally, I don't wear anything under the pants since the kneepads are already built in. | 12:36 |
| delinquentme | ruby on C core .. C Core goes on MCs | 12:36 |
| delinquentme | is there magic somewhere there | 12:36 |
| diginet | you know what language I oddly love? Postscript. It's really underrated as a usable language, rather than just something to be generated | 12:36 |
| F71 | Ruby on MCs? Color me interested. | 12:36 |
| diginet | what are 5.11 pants? 5 speakers and two subwoofers? | 12:37 |
| kanzure | what's wrong with just writing C? | 12:37 |
| diginet | or asm? | 12:37 |
| kanzure | yes | 12:37 |
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| kanzure | but in general, people tend to write C when their chip allows it | 12:37 |
| kanzure | er, when their chip is a valid target platfrom | 12:38 |
| @fenn | hmm kuka has humans spray-painting robots? that sounds wrong | 12:38 |
| kanzure | platform.. | 12:38 |
| @fenn | i wonder if fanuc has a patent on "robots making robots" | 12:38 |
| diginet | Yeah, some asm's are kind of yucky, if its something with a nice architecture, like m68k then I like to do asm, ARM? no way | 12:38 |
| F71 | They're 'tactical' pants. They ring well with the law enforcement community but they look to presentable for the zed-hunting mouthbreather crowd. | 12:38 |
| kanzure | fenn: it's probably just an end effector | 12:38 |
| diginet | what's zed-hunting? | 12:38 |
| kanzure | diginet: personally, i really enjoy z80 asm. | 12:39 |
| Urchin | what pants? | 12:39 |
| kanzure | there's no such thing as multiplication but it still manages | 12:39 |
| katsmeow-afk | i dunno zeds or mouthbreathers, but i tend to wear out pants quickly for whatever reason, these seem tough | 12:39 |
| kanzure | all my z80 work is here: http://bitbucket.org/iimarckus/pokered/src | 12:39 |
| * HEx1 wonders idly what's wrong with ARM assembly | 12:39 | |
| F71 | They guys that own more guns than they have teeth, and they're all loaded down with 'tactical' stuff to help them in the zombie apocalypse. | 12:39 |
| kanzure | HEx1: hello, long time no talk.. | 12:39 |
| Urchin | lol | 12:39 |
| diginet | any RISC asm is a nightmare IMO, since they weren't really designed to be programmed in assembler (that's the whole point of RISC) | 12:40 |
| HEx1 | it was certainly nice back in the day. it's possible they've fucked it up more recently with Thumb and whatever other crap they've stuffed in in the past two decades | 12:40 |
| diginet | lol, Jazelle | 12:40 |
| Urchin | some of the gun people on this network are into that whole zombie thing | 12:40 |
| F71 | they differ from survivalists in that their 'bug out bag' consists primarily of an igloo cooler full of beer and steak coupled with a duffel full of camo duct tape and handheld gaming systems | 12:40 |
| Urchin | but not by much | 12:40 |
| F71 | so basically, frat-fucks that spend too much money through Cheaper than Dirt | 12:41 |
| kanzure | fenn: status update? | 12:41 |
| katsmeow-afk | wear only cammo clothes? | 12:41 |
| diginet | Jazelle, for those unaware, was an abomination of an extended ISA for ARM which was supposed to provide hardware-level acceleration for Java, but actually ended up making things run slower | 12:41 |
| diginet | my favourite assembler would have to be VAX, it had a freaking instruction to evaluate polynomials | 12:42 |
| F71 | I meet a lot of them when I get away from the developed parts of texas | 12:42 |
| HEx1 | (hi kanzure) | 12:42 |
| F71 | so I've got a bit of beef | 12:42 |
| diginet | F71, like my Uncle? lol | 12:42 |
| F71 | haha, don't think I know him | 12:42 |
| diginet | I know, I was kidding | 12:42 |
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| kanzure | cory_tobin: hey. | 12:43 |
| HEx1 | diginet: don't forget the part where they not only didn't document it but claimed that merely including the opcodes in your program was illegal without a license | 12:43 |
| kanzure | cory_tobin: what has the LA group been up to? | 12:43 |
| diginet | He literally things the army is going to march on his little compound, I mean house. First of all: that is retarded, why would they attack him? But more importantly, does he really think he could WIN? I mean, even if he killed off a few of the soldiers, it's not like they're going to pack up and leave. No, they'll do the same to him what they did to Waco | 12:43 |
| diginet | *thinks | 12:43 |
| F71 | If one of his primary concerns is getting power for his Xbox when SHTF, then he might be a zed-hunting mouthbreather. | 12:44 |
| diginet | HEx1: how can one forget? Aww DEC, how I will miss you! *tear* | 12:44 |
| Urchin | diginet: and it would be marines, not army | 12:44 |
| diginet | Urchin, right right | 12:44 |
| HEx1 | diginet: not DEC, ARM. (DEC was kinda before my time) | 12:44 |
| diginet | ohh, right | 12:44 |
| diginet | DEC was before my time too (I'm only 18) but I love them | 12:45 |
| diginet | ARM, as a company, is evil | 12:45 |
| diginet | gawd I hate them | 12:45 |
| F71 | They license their designs. What's evil? | 12:45 |
| diginet | anyone interested in OHW should hate them too | 12:45 |
| kanzure | diginet: why not just use something from opencores.org? | 12:45 |
| HEx1 | (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jazelle#Instruction_set) | 12:45 |
| diginet | because they basically told the opencore folks that they would try to sue them if they made anything comparable to ARM | 12:45 |
| F71 | Are there people manufacturing opencore processors comparable in price and power to ARM? | 12:46 |
| F71 | oh wtf | 12:46 |
| HEx1 | diginet: only ARMv4 or above; there are Free ARMv2 cores | 12:46 |
| kanzure | F71: all i know is what qi hardware has been up to | 12:46 |
| kanzure | i forget if they did a processor or not | 12:46 |
| diginet | No, they couldn't possibly, but ARM still said it the same | 12:46 |
| diginet | HEx1: yeah | 12:46 |
| katsmeow-afk | considering ARM makes 8080/8051 family cpus, can they sue for cloning those? | 12:46 |
| diginet | no, because the patents are expired | 12:46 |
| diginet | and Intel owned them anyway | 12:47 |
| kanzure | you can still sue even with expired patents.. | 12:47 |
| katsmeow-afk | ah | 12:47 |
| diginet | how? | 12:47 |
| kanzure | you can sue for anything | 12:47 |
| kanzure | litigation is costly enough to crush your opponents | 12:47 |
| diginet | sue succesfully | 12:47 |
| diginet | true | 12:47 |
| Urchin | you don't need a reason to sue, you need a lawyer | 12:47 |
| diginet | yep | 12:47 |
| diginet | well, anyhow, ARM is evil scum | 12:47 |
| kanzure | "Austin couple sues over expired patent labeling" http://www.statesman.com/news/local/austin-couple-find-a-nut-worth-cracking-in-1269990.html | 12:48 |
| kanzure | (not quite the same) | 12:48 |
| diginet | IP companies are bleh | 12:48 |
| kanzure | diginet: focus | 12:48 |
| diginet | kanzure, sorry | 12:48 |
| diginet | I will try harder | 12:48 |
| kanzure | unless you have an actual plan for toppling patent trolls | 12:49 |
| diginet | good point | 12:49 |
| kanzure | in which case.. we'd definitely like to hear it. | 12:49 |
| diginet | VIVA LA REVOLUCION | 12:49 |
| diginet | no but seriously | 12:49 |
| diginet | I don't, but I wish I did | 12:49 |
| @fenn | woah | 12:50 |
| diginet | okay guys question: how would I store/preserve my strain of transfected yeast for future batches, so I don't have to keep redoing the transformation process? | 12:50 |
| @fenn | "a federal law that allows any person to sue on behalf of the U.S. government — and collect damages — to enforce false patent marking." | 12:50 |
| diginet | here's a fun fact | 12:50 |
| @fenn | let's go patent troll hunting! | 12:50 |
| diginet | did you know blasphemy is still illegal in many states? | 12:50 |
| diginet | (or have I said this already?) | 12:50 |
| HEx1 | so long as fabs are so expensive I figure patents on CPU designs are the least of anyone's worries | 12:50 |
| kanzure | fenn: yep.. also, on a related note, you get more protection with a "patent pending" label, rather than a "patented by patent#" label, for some reason | 12:50 |
| Urchin | there is a classic way of escaping the reach of patent holders, go where they can't physically reach you | 12:50 |
| kanzure | HEx1: azonenberg (in here) has been doing home cmos fabrication | 12:50 |
| kanzure | HEx1: so.. i don't think yo're right | 12:51 |
| diginet | literally? | 12:51 |
| Urchin | literally | 12:51 |
| diginet | what resolution? | 12:51 |
| kanzure | diginet: http://code.google.com/p/homecmos | 12:51 |
| diginet | Jeri Ellsworth did some DIY transistors, but they were NMOS | 12:51 |
| diginet | I've seen that | 12:51 |
| kanzure | this is not jeri | 12:51 |
| diginet | I know | 12:51 |
| diginet | I'm just saying, there is precedent | 12:51 |
| kanzure | there's pre-jeri precedent too.. | 12:51 |
| diginet | anyway, okay guys question: how would I store/preserve my strain of transfected yeast for future batches, so I don't have to keep redoing the transformation procedure? | 12:52 |
| kanzure | probably in a freezer | 12:52 |
| F71 | There's a Citizen Science Quarterly article on getting pure yeast | 12:52 |
| F71 | Cathal Wrote it IIRC | 12:53 |
| HEx1 | kanzure: interesting | 12:53 |
| diginet | well, how cold are we talking? | 12:53 |
| diginet | according to the literature, a consumer-grade freezer could store them for a few months at the most | 12:53 |
| kanzure | HEx1: did you see the recent SNES decapitations? | 12:53 |
| HEx1 | kanzure: no | 12:54 |
| kanzure | HEx1: "Thankfully, Lord Nightmare from the MAME/MESS project was in contact with a savant named Dr. Decapitator, with the necessary knowledge and hardware to make this possible. Even better, he was willing to do it just for the cost of the donor cartridges and supplies. This worked out to $250 per coprocessor." | 12:54 |
| kanzure | HEx1: http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3675123 | 12:54 |
| kanzure | HEx1: http://byuu.org/articles/emulation/snes-coprocessors | 12:54 |
| kanzure | HEx1: http://byuu.org/articles/emulation/decap | 12:54 |
| kanzure | thought you might enjoy that. | 12:54 |
| HEx1 | oh, this is another visual-6502-type project? | 12:54 |
| kanzure | this is "make SNES fully emulatable finally" | 12:54 |
| diginet | http://www.ebay.com/itm/DEWAR-FLASK-glass-aluminum-outer-covering-/110857025976?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item19cf97f9b8 | 12:55 |
| diginet | look at that! a dewar, for $30, and in Houston! | 12:55 |
| HEx1 | that's the end, not the means. the means is "get a transistor-level description of the chip" | 12:55 |
| kanzure | true that. | 12:56 |
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| diginet | there's software which can analyze pictures of the chip mask and output a netlist | 12:56 |
| diginet | no idea how accurate it is, but we should try and replicate that | 12:57 |
| kanzure | open source? | 12:57 |
| diginet | yeah | 12:57 |
| diginet | oh | 12:57 |
| kanzure | also: do you mean mask or do you mean microscope image of a decapitated chip | 12:57 |
| diginet | no, it's veyr proprietary | 12:57 |
| diginet | the latter | 12:57 |
| diginet | I meant our version should be open source | 12:58 |
| kanzure | i think that's doable. get me some sample images and i will stare at them for a bit. | 12:58 |
| katsmeow-afk | someone did a photomicrograph of the 6502, a transistor layout of it, a sim of it operating, and a lot of other useless stuff in great colorful detail | 12:58 |
| @fenn | visual6502.org has the right sort of images | 12:59 |
| katsmeow-afk | yeas, them | 12:59 |
| kanzure | i'm p. sure they already have their netlist | 12:59 |
| diginet | that site is awesome | 12:59 |
| diginet | but yeah, it's definitely doable for older designs | 12:59 |
| katsmeow-afk | afaik, there's opencores of 6502 also | 12:59 |
| * HEx1 wonders at what point FPGAs will enter into this discussion | 12:59 | |
| katsmeow-afk | in fpgas | 12:59 |
| diginet | FPGAs are cool | 12:59 |
| diginet | but | 12:59 |
| kanzure | HEx1: that discussion was last week, you're late | 13:00 |
| diginet | slow, expensive, and power hungry | 13:00 |
| kanzure | we're going backwards | 13:00 |
| HEx1 | gah *backlog* | 13:00 |
| diginet | severly limiting their application | 13:00 |
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| kanzure | i want to see visual6502 paired with http://people.csail.mit.edu/pgbovine/python/tutor.html#mode=edit | 13:02 |
| @fenn | i want to see an automated backlog summarizer | 13:03 |
| kanzure | i think we call this a person | 13:04 |
| diginet | I have another question: are there lids one can buy for dewars which allow for the venting of evaporated gas? | 13:04 |
| kanzure | diginet: are you writing these things down somewhere? and if so, are you going to share your notes | 13:05 |
| diginet | what things exactly? what you're telling me? Yes, and yes | 13:05 |
| diginet | err, by "you" I mean the channel collectively | 13:05 |
| diginet | I don't have much of interest to share yet, but as soon as I have the materials to begin the procedure I will make detailed notes, and tape anything I do lest I forget something | 13:06 |
| ParahSailin__ | dewars are never made gas tight | 13:07 |
| ParahSailin__ | they have styrofoam lids | 13:07 |
| delinquentme | is there an existing lib that opens PDfs and scrapes the reference information? | 13:07 |
| delinquentme | like thats a solid place to start with determining impact of a paper... | 13:08 |
| kanzure | delinquentme: nope. there's some propreitary tools look mendeley but you would have to spend some time with IDA Pro. | 13:08 |
| kanzure | you could try using tesseract but it never worked for me | 13:08 |
| diginet | ParahSailin__, the one I'm looking at on eBay looks like it has a glass lid | 13:09 |
| kanzure | tesseract results (2008): http://heybryan.org/shots/2008-03-24-autoscholar-OCR-notgood.png | 13:09 |
| kanzure | hmm, it occurs to me that you could probably make an improved citation OCR system based on having a known set of journals/abbreviations | 13:10 |
| katsmeow-afk | that's ugly | 13:10 |
| kanzure | then you can do OCR on the "S. Appkkld Phsssyys" and do a match and get "S. Applied Phys." | 13:10 |
| kanzure | well there's a known set of journals (more or less) | 13:10 |
| HEx1 | wow, OCR is that bad? | 13:10 |
| katsmeow-afk | i did that with simple dictionary lookup | 13:10 |
| F71 | an airtight dewar is a cryogen bomb | 13:10 |
| delinquentme | kanzure, right now im only interested in those encoded as actual text | 13:11 |
| kanzure | HEx1: proprietary ocr can be better.. i think i just suck at configuring tesseract | 13:11 |
| kanzure | delinquentme: try pdftk | 13:11 |
| delinquentme | that is really awful OCR | 13:11 |
| diginet | F71: I know, that's why I'm scared of getting one if I'm not positive that it is safe for my purposes | 13:11 |
| diginet | but gaiz! OCR is proof we're in the singyoolareeteee | 13:11 |
| diginet | Kurtzwile said so! | 13:11 |
| kanzure | you should never ever rely on OCR | 13:11 |
| F71 | Most of the vaccum dewars are going to be faulted, which means they won't work well | 13:12 |
| HEx1 | when did journal pdfs start containing actual text, or at least text overlays? | 13:12 |
| F71 | Most of them can't take a light knock | 13:12 |
| F71 | like plopping it off of a dolly | 13:12 |
| kanzure | HEx1: depends on the publisher | 13:12 |
| kanzure | HEx1: some papers back to the 90s were in ps, pdf, djvu with no images | 13:13 |
| diginet | I miss ps | 13:13 |
| F71 | Y'all looking for houston area cryo? | 13:13 |
| diginet | ps>PDF | 13:13 |
| diginet | F71, I am! *raises hand* | 13:13 |
| kanzure | F71: diginet wanted to come by txrx with you and ParahSailin__ | 13:13 |
| F71 | Sure thing. | 13:13 |
| F71 | The biolab, unfortunately, is in hibernation | 13:14 |
| diginet | F71: I need for the storage of some transformed yeast cells | 13:14 |
| diginet | *it | 13:14 |
| ParahSailin__ | you can store yeast at -20 | 13:14 |
| F71 | There's no room for it until we move. I outfitted the lab very well, though | 13:14 |
| ParahSailin__ | if you really had to | 13:14 |
| diginet | how long would they last? | 13:15 |
| F71 | I'm thinking of moving one of the −80C freezers to my house. It's better to have one off-site once the biolab is booted back up anyways | 13:15 |
| HEx1 | are -80C freezers exceptionally expensive? how easy is it to lower the temperature of a domestic freezer by turning up the compressor or something? | 13:16 |
| F71 | can't do it. | 13:16 |
| F71 | The −80 freezers use a two-stage compression heat exchanger | 13:16 |
| F71 | basically, a freon system driving a CO2 phase change system | 13:17 |
| diginet | ah, freon, lovely stuff | 13:17 |
| F71 | They weren't especially hard to fix. I get all my equipment from scrappers. | 13:18 |
| F71 | Some from medical waste auctions | 13:18 |
| F71 | Scrappers don't care about what an object is or it's worth, they just want the metal | 13:19 |
| F71 | *its | 13:20 |
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| F71 | no, It's | 13:20 |
| ParahSailin__ | how and where in houston do you get this stuff | 13:20 |
| F71 | There's a few auction houses, and some ways to get ahold of discarded equipment at rice | 13:21 |
| F71 | there are a lot of scrappers, but one has to have an eye for components | 13:21 |
| F71 | The key thing is Houston is both a medical and research hub | 13:22 |
| F71 | There are special medical rules that say that equipment has to be discarded before half of its estimated lifespan | 13:22 |
| F71 | manufacturers are dicks, so they arbitrarily set low lifespans | 13:22 |
| F71 | so there's a constant outpouring of medical equipment | 13:23 |
| F71 | Vets can use them, but most are unwanted | 13:23 |
| F71 | they get picked up, refurbished, and sold on ebay at high price points | 13:23 |
| ParahSailin__ | what are the auction houses? | 13:24 |
| F71 | A really good one is slapsale, the physical location is just off of 288 | 13:24 |
| F71 | I'll grab a link | 13:24 |
| F71 | http://www.slapsale.com/item_listings.aspx?cid=775856497 | 13:25 |
| diginet | F71: you are my hero | 13:25 |
| F71 | there are tricks to bidding there | 13:25 |
| F71 | most esoteric medical lots go for the 30 dollar minimum bid | 13:25 |
| F71 | I was able to outfit the biolab for under two grand | 13:26 |
| F71 | It's just.. stored due to me being the only DIYbio guy in the place | 13:26 |
| HEx1 | awesome | 13:26 |
| @fenn | "lot of centrifuge rotors and accessories" | 13:27 |
| ParahSailin__ | http://www.slapsale.com/item_desc.aspx?itemid=51634 wow | 13:27 |
| F71 | The scrapyards are worth a look, too, as they're less of a hassle. I've found everything from ultracentrifuges to cell counters going for a quarter a pound | 13:27 |
| F71 | or less | 13:27 |
| @fenn | wasnt that like a $2k item | 13:28 |
| F71 | I got two for like 200 bucks | 13:28 |
| F71 | the auction houses are a hassle so sometimes stuff gets shuffled from hostpital to scrapper | 13:29 |
| F71 | it saves them money | 13:29 |
| F71 | It's totally illegal though | 13:29 |
| F71 | like, the cell counter I got was full of fluid | 13:30 |
| F71 | I had to put on a bunny suit to keep from getting the Hep | 13:30 |
| F71 | 200 lbs of sticky orange shit | 13:30 |
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| F71 | the ultracentrifuges would probably explode, so I leave them there until I the day I feel that ambitious | 13:31 |
| kanzure | F71: we should definitely start a competition to see who can get the best equipment for the cheapest price | 13:31 |
| yashgaroth | you've got plenty of time to run away while they spin up | 13:31 |
| F71 | that'd be cool | 13:31 |
| kanzure | i got a 12x18 30W laser cutter for $600 | 13:31 |
| F71 | that'd dead sexy | 13:32 |
| kanzure | and a 6-axis robot arm for $200 | 13:32 |
| F71 | big one? | 13:32 |
| F71 | You mentioned it | 13:32 |
| kanzure | although the robot arm required tons of work | 13:32 |
| kanzure | just a standard puma arm | 13:32 |
| F71 | puma and kuka are so cute | 13:32 |
| F71 | there's some federal level liquidation that's like, the big daddy of slapsale | 13:35 |
| F71 | like, an HP plant closes in the area and you can get 500 bunny suits, chip fab, clean room, etc, for minimum bid | 13:36 |
| F71 | I just don't have room to jump on this stuff | 13:36 |
| kanzure | F71: halcyon molecular is liquidating their tools | 13:36 |
| F71 | I'd need to have a truck and a warehouse | 13:36 |
| kanzure | i don't have an inventory or price list though | 13:36 |
| yashgaroth | someone get on the daily show tonight and ask elon musk about it | 13:37 |
| kanzure | the grapevine says that halcyon is actually continuing but it's splitting up into three factions | 13:38 |
| roksprok_ | ooo what factions? is one of them mind uploading/randall koene? | 13:38 |
| diginet | F71, you ever see vacuum pumps on there? | 13:38 |
| yashgaroth | when there's only 3 people working there that doesn't sound too promising | 13:39 |
| F71 | ParahSailin_ and diginet : Do either of you need pickup arrangements for TX/RX? | 13:39 |
| F71 | I see vaccum pumps of all kinds on there | 13:39 |
| kanzure | F71: when? | 13:39 |
| F71 | and peristalic, and double membrane, etc | 13:40 |
| F71 | when? | 13:41 |
| F71 | when what? | 13:41 |
| kanzure | F71: you said pickup arrangements. but presumably that requires a schedule yes? | 13:41 |
| F71 | do they need pickup? That's open, assuming they're both Houston area. | 13:42 |
| kanzure | like are you guys going to a meeting there tonight? | 13:42 |
| diginet | oh, me? not tonight | 13:42 |
| F71 | haha no, there's an open house every friday, actual work gets done on the other days. | 13:42 |
| ParahSailin__ | pickup arrangements? | 13:42 |
| F71 | I don't want to assume you both drive | 13:43 |
| ParahSailin__ | heh i drive | 13:43 |
| diginet | I don't drive | 13:43 |
| F71 | K. I live in Katy area, so I can try and plot a route past you if you need to make it down. | 13:44 |
| diginet | I'm not anywhere near there, Heights area for me | 13:45 |
| diginet | I don't even know if I would be able to go anytime soon though, so it might be a moot point | 13:46 |
| diginet | (and I would hate to be an inconvenience) | 13:46 |
| kanzure | diginet: i think you're missing out on some really amazing people | 13:48 |
| diginet | It's not that I wouldn't want to, I would just feel guilty about making F71 go far out of his way, and that I'm not sure if I have the time to | 13:51 |
| F71 | Heights? give me a nearby intersection | 13:53 |
| F71 | heights are huge | 13:53 |
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| diginet | well I say Heights, technically its just right by it, umm, let me think, nearby Intersection | 13:55 |
| diginet | 43rd and Ella? | 13:55 |
| F71 | I head north on shepherd by I-10 regularly | 13:55 |
| diginet | well, if you can swing it, provided my schedule allows for it, sure that would be fun | 13:56 |
| diginet | thanks :) | 13:56 |
| F71 | The detour is practically nothing, It adds five minutes to the journey | 13:57 |
| F71 | Are you working around a schedule? School or something? | 13:59 |
| F71 | I tend to either be down weekends or late. | 13:59 |
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| nmz787 | just woke up from a 16 hour 40 min nap | 13:59 |
| F71 | Do you have Mono? | 13:59 |
| kanzure | don't use .net | 14:00 |
| kanzure | mono isn't really worth it | 14:00 |
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| kanzure | hi nmz787 | 14:01 |
| F71 | *snrk* | 14:01 |
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| ParahSailin__ | if you have mono, i'd like to collect an ebv sample | 14:01 |
| F71 | nmz787 either you're on some kind of experimental sleep phasing or you've got a problem | 14:02 |
| F71 | possibly both | 14:02 |
| diginet | Me? I don't have mono, no | 14:06 |
| diginet | I'm sort of working around a schedule | 14:06 |
| nmz787 | no mono here | 14:06 |
| F71 | no diginet not you, mononucleosis is a possible "16 hour nap" explanation | 14:07 |
| nmz787 | i woke up a few times, but went back to dreaming because it is better than gloomy rochester | 14:07 |
| diginet | F71 oh okay, sorry | 14:07 |
| F71 | do you have bad internet in rochester? | 14:07 |
| F71 | a room with internet is a room anywhere, unless the air is made of hot stank like it is in houston when the power goes out | 14:08 |
| F71 | or when some hobo huffs your freon | 14:08 |
| nmz787 | yes internets and air are OK | 14:09 |
| ParahSailin__ | i think i wouldnt mind living in a microhouse | 14:10 |
| F71 | Do you have a brainport TDU and some kind of clever eye-motion communication relay? Does your Dream Avatar somehow have a better work environment? | 14:10 |
| ParahSailin__ | and have an outdoor patio kitchen | 14:11 |
| F71 | If not, Don't sleep so much, sleep is boooring. | 14:11 |
| F71 | :) | 14:11 |
| nmz787 | nah basically i slept around 2hrs 45 mins the night before, then when i woke up late for my 8am i said screw it, went back to sleep.... then woke up late for my 12 noon class, and screw it again | 14:12 |
| F71 | ah, haha | 14:12 |
| nmz787 | i'm in a pretty bored state of living right now though, dreamin is actually a bit more exciting | 14:12 |
| nmz787 | though less productive | 14:12 |
| nmz787 | i've been so bored/mind-blocked-by-school lately that my productivity is very low | 14:13 |
| F71 | past a certain point, collecting porn is more productive | 14:13 |
| F71 | anything but giving into the brain chemicals that tell you to stay in bed | 14:13 |
| nmz787 | i can stay in bed a long time, but i have to work quickly if i get out of bed to go to pee or something | 14:14 |
| nmz787 | before a certain waking period i can pretty easily get back to sleep | 14:14 |
| nmz787 | which is around 3 mins | 14:15 |
| F71 | what flushes the sleepy brain juice? can I have an intravenous alarm? | 14:15 |
| roksprok_ | nmz787: i have to say i'm a bit jealous...my dreams are always normal life things that aren't exciting at all | 14:15 |
| roksprok_ | in fact i sometimes think a conversation occured in real life and it turns out i was dreaming | 14:15 |
| F71 | Ah, I have the same bastard brain trickery | 14:15 |
| nmz787 | hmm | 14:15 |
| F71 | makes me think I'm getting ready for work and such | 14:16 |
| nmz787 | i used to do that a lot when i was a kid... dad would wake me up and I didnt want to go to class, go back to sleep, only to dream i was getting dressed and ready for school | 14:16 |
| nmz787 | to be interrupted by an even agrier dad | 14:16 |
| nmz787 | angrier* | 14:16 |
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| F71 | There's a fugue state me that's freaking brilliant. I installed an alarm on my phone that makes me do math and stuff to cut off. | 14:16 |
| roksprok_ | i recall reading that some famous thinkers would get up for a few hours in the middle of the night to work | 14:17 |
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| F71 | concious me didn't understand how I was able to break the process for a long time. I'd just wake up late to an error message | 14:17 |
| F71 | the alarm went off, but no math was done | 14:18 |
| F71 | not a single care was given | 14:18 |
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| F71 | I was doing some kind of weird interface thing that breaks the process by bringing up the home screen | 14:19 |
| F71 | my roomate saw me do it | 14:19 |
| nmz787 | F71: lol.... when i was a kid i wired my radio alarm to some labtech powered computer speakers.... blasting right next to my ears didnt do shit | 14:19 |
| kanzure | nmz787: synthetic genomics wants to talk w/ us.. | 14:19 |
| nmz787 | who is that? | 14:20 |
| yashgaroth | craig venter | 14:20 |
| F71 | ffffffffffff | 14:20 |
| nmz787 | nice | 14:20 |
| nmz787 | where? | 14:20 |
| nmz787 | when? | 14:20 |
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| nmz787 | email? | 14:20 |
| F71 | He does good things but I question his reasons | 14:20 |
| kanzure | synthetic genomics is not craig? | 14:20 |
| F71 | Like, I'd rather somebody else do them. | 14:20 |
| yashgaroth | lemme know if you're coming to SD, I worked a block from syngen | 14:20 |
| kanzure | yashgaroth: do you feel like giving a presentation in person | 14:21 |
| yashgaroth | j craig's egotistical enough that they're p. much one and the same | 14:21 |
| kanzure | yashgaroth: they want april 12th | 14:21 |
| kanzure | so i can be there | 14:21 |
| yashgaroth | sure why not | 14:21 |
| kanzure | ok let me do math | 14:21 |
| nmz787 | what, 2 days? | 14:21 |
| yashgaroth | wait I may have a job interview but I'll check | 14:21 |
| F71 | they want to talk on IRC? | 14:22 |
| kanzure | yashgaroth: if you have a job interview *at* syngen then that would be the best | 14:22 |
| yashgaroth | ha no it's at lilly | 14:22 |
| kanzure | oh i see | 14:22 |
| yashgaroth | but it might just be the pre-screen/drug test blergh | 14:22 |
| kanzure | venter founded syngen | 14:22 |
| F71 | you should ask for a job interview at syngen | 14:22 |
| kanzure | what? you have to do drug testing? | 14:22 |
| yashgaroth | no they're checking me so we'll see how that goes | 14:23 |
| kanzure | dude if your job requires a drug test, you're shooting for the wrong jobs | 14:23 |
| yashgaroth | heh true | 14:23 |
| yashgaroth | they actually shot at me, recruiter called me an hour ago | 14:23 |
| F71 | I've never been shot at by someone that hadn't employed me yet | 14:23 |
| yashgaroth | I'm just that good | 14:23 |
| kanzure | nmz787: so.. you know how you said that meeting w/ craig? this is not quite it | 14:23 |
| nmz787 | what is it then? | 14:24 |
| nmz787 | we show up, they hit us with heavy wrenches? | 14:24 |
| nmz787 | "now you'll never innovate and make cheap DNA" | 14:24 |
| nmz787 | mwah hah hahh | 14:24 |
| kanzure | no this is probably just a courtship | 14:24 |
| kanzure | talking with companies is exactly like courting a date | 14:24 |
| F71 | Craig V's old special carter wrench | 14:25 |
| F71 | Sailing the high seas with a Mr. Coffee filter and a bag full of misplaced intentions. | 14:25 |
| yashgaroth | oh no do I have to dress all slutty :/ | 14:26 |
| diginet | yashgaroth. . .? | 14:26 |
| nmz787 | yes | 14:26 |
| nmz787 | most certainly | 14:26 |
| yashgaroth | sweet | 14:26 |
| diginet | so, will polyhistidine tags likely impair the function of my protein? | 14:26 |
| diginet | yashgaroth, my sarcasm detector doesn't work, are you kidding or not? | 14:27 |
| F71 | nah, you clip them off afterward | 14:27 |
| nmz787 | prob not, if so there is a sequence you can add ot cut it off | 14:27 |
| yashgaroth | maybe just a thong, some lipstick | 14:27 |
| yashgaroth | yes it's sarcasm, and I'd recommend self-cleaving tags | 14:27 |
| nmz787 | thong only visible when you walk... | 14:27 |
| kanzure | yashgaroth: i probably wont physically show up | 14:28 |
| F71 | Bring prophylactics. Show you mean business. | 14:28 |
| kanzure | yashgaroth: this is just a phone call. if it progresses then i'll definitely hop on a plane at some point. | 14:28 |
| F71 | I can send you my design for the pants with the integrated kneepads | 14:28 |
| yashgaroth | oh okay cuz I only know the oligo generation setup, not all the microfluidics | 14:28 |
| nmz787 | ahh | 14:29 |
| nmz787 | ok | 14:29 |
| nmz787 | brb | 14:29 |
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| diginet | how do you snip the tags off? | 14:30 |
| F71 | enzyme | 14:30 |
| F71 | or whatever this self-cleaving tech is | 14:30 |
| yashgaroth | elp tag, inteins | 14:30 |
| diginet | got it | 14:31 |
| F71 | You need to know which way the protein folds before you stick a tag on it | 14:32 |
| diginet | are tags worth it? I gather they ease detection significantly | 14:32 |
| F71 | that way it's less likely to interfere | 14:32 |
| diginet | I see | 14:32 |
| yashgaroth | they mostly aid purification | 14:34 |
| diginet | err, I meant purification not detection | 14:34 |
| kanzure | oh you're right | 14:39 |
| kanzure | it's a phone call with gibson | 14:40 |
| kanzure | shit what am i doing | 14:40 |
| kanzure | yashgaroth: quick! i need to become an expert in the gibson assembly method | 14:43 |
| yashgaroth | wait you're calling the guy who invented gibson assembly? | 14:44 |
| kanzure | that's who wants a call with me | 14:45 |
| yashgaroth | I've never used it oh nooooo | 14:45 |
| kanzure | terrible! what do i pay you for. :) | 14:45 |
| yashgaroth | so it looks like you just get a primer that overlaps the blunt ends or something | 14:46 |
| F71 | exonuclease nips the 5' end so you have single stranded overlaps | 14:46 |
| F71 | There's a thermostable polymerase that fills in the gaps | 14:46 |
| F71 | and taq ligase finishes | 14:47 |
| kanzure | so it's blunt-end ligation? | 14:47 |
| F71 | So, munch, annneal, fill in, ligate | 14:47 |
| F71 | you start with blunt, then you get some single-strand when the exonuclease is done | 14:48 |
| F71 | 50C is the key temperature | 14:48 |
| F71 | No restriction site scarring, you can combine a lot of stuff in one reaction, and the result can be transformed right away | 14:49 |
| kanzure | what are you ligating? overlap extensions? | 14:50 |
| F71 | It's also cheap and fast since there are few reagents and the thermocycler doesn't need crazy temperature ramping | 14:50 |
| F71 | yeah, ligate the overlap after the polymerase fills in the gaps | 14:50 |
| F71 | the exonuclease just munch-munch-munches until you thermoinactivate it | 14:51 |
| F71 | then the overlaps anneal, the gaps get filled, and the taq ligase finishes assembly | 14:51 |
| kanzure | nmz787: thursday 2:30 pm PST.. you down? | 14:51 |
| F71 | all in one 50C step | 14:51 |
| kanzure | 4:30 CST. | 14:52 |
| F71 | that's 20 minutes ago | 14:53 |
| F71 | two days from now | 14:53 |
| kanzure | thank you timebot9000 | 14:53 |
| F71 | I am putting myself to the fullest possible use, which is all I think that any conscious entity can ever hope to do. | 14:54 |
| kanzure | indeed | 14:54 |
| @fenn | randomly found this, it's actually a pretty good deal http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=280852865243 | 14:55 |
| @fenn | stepper motor with integrated controller, leadscrew, anti-backlash nut, coupling, and linear slide, all for $65 | 14:55 |
| @fenn | when you consider the helical coupling alone is $35 on mcmaster | 14:56 |
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| F71 | not bad at all | 14:56 |
| katsmeow-afk | the shaft coupler is $35 on Macmaster?? those go unsold on ebay even at 99 cents | 14:58 |
| F71 | the controller on that unit is dead sexy | 14:58 |
| @fenn | hong kong ebay price is $3.99 with shipping | 14:59 |
| F71 | but the application.. doesn't it require at least three? | 14:59 |
| @fenn | damn, so my options are: (above link), mcmaster, UK, or hong kong | 14:59 |
| F71 | an integrated controller would probably be prudent | 14:59 |
| @fenn | i hope it has step/dir mode | 15:00 |
| F71 | you don't need that much torque if it's for the teeny application y'all have been talking about | 15:00 |
| diginet | urgh, protein purification, you will be the end of me | 15:01 |
| F71 | by that I mean a microlaser | 15:01 |
| kanzure | diginet: you could do microfluidic protein purification :D | 15:01 |
| kanzure | (don't hate) | 15:01 |
| F71 | what protein? | 15:01 |
| diginet | will that be available anytime soon? | 15:01 |
| F71 | spidersss? | 15:01 |
| diginet | yeah | 15:01 |
| diginet | spidroins | 15:01 |
| yashgaroth | gram scale on a chip | 15:01 |
| diginet | they're rather large, 300 kDa or so, would that make things harder or easier? | 15:02 |
| @fenn | hell i could just hose-clamp on a short length of rubber hose and call it a day | 15:02 |
| F71 | I've got a milligram scale chip. They're pretty simple. | 15:02 |
| @fenn | why do you need a chip for that? | 15:02 |
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| diginet | what is a milligram scale chip? | 15:03 |
| F71 | It's the chip driver in my milligram scale. What were you talking about? | 15:03 |
| @fenn | i can't tell if you're serious or not | 15:04 |
| diginet | protein purification | 15:04 |
| diginet | who, me? | 15:04 |
| @fenn | no, f71 | 15:04 |
| diginet | oh | 15:05 |
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| diginet | is chromotography DIYable? | 15:05 |
| virnovus | beef jerky looks like scabs | 15:08 |
| delinquentme | katsmeow-afk, so they do | 15:09 |
| delinquentme | http://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_from=R40&_trksid=p5197.m570.l1313&_nkw=shaft+coupling&_sacat=See-All-Categories | 15:09 |
| delinquentme | damn | 15:09 |
| yashgaroth | chromatography is sort of DIY-able, though no one's really explored it, that I know of | 15:09 |
| kanzure | delinquentme: syngen wants a call | 15:09 |
| kanzure | delinquentme: did you contact them? | 15:09 |
| yashgaroth | oh kanz I should be able to make thursday work, also I'll brb in an hour | 15:10 |
| virnovus | oops | 15:10 |
| diginet | because I don't think I have any other options for purifying my protein | 15:11 |
| kanzure | yashgaroth: ok. call me when you get back. 512-203-0507. | 15:11 |
| delinquentme | syngen? | 15:12 |
| kanzure | venter's company | 15:12 |
| virnovus | yashgaroth: i've done some ion-exchange chromatography. but i'm not sure that works so well for protein | 15:12 |
| delinquentme | that webpage doesnt look like its funded | 15:13 |
| delinquentme | anyways who do they want to talk to | 15:13 |
| kanzure | me | 15:14 |
| F71 | HPLC machines pass by on slapsale all the time, if anyone feels like snagging one to reverse engineer | 15:16 |
| F71 | they're one of the few items that actually garner bids, though | 15:16 |
| F71 | less so for LPLC | 15:16 |
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| kanzure | "In 2006 SGI raised its Series A round of financing from Draper Fisher Jurvetson, Meteor Group, Biotechonomy LLC and Plenus, S.A. de C.V. In 2007 SGI closed its Series B round of financing with BP plc and ACGT Sdn Bhd." | 15:20 |
| kanzure | isn't this the one that got $600mil from exxon? | 15:22 |
| diginet | SGI as in Silicon Graphics Inc? | 15:22 |
| kanzure | http://www.nytimes.com/gwire/2009/07/14/14greenwire-exxon-sinks-600m-into-algae-based-biofuels-in-33562.html | 15:22 |
| delinquentme | kanzure, when you talking to them | 15:25 |
| kanzure | thursday.. | 15:25 |
| delinquentme | did i get their website right? | 15:27 |
| kanzure | ? | 15:27 |
| delinquentme | bc it looks like they're looking for design work and not to invest | 15:28 |
| delinquentme | google the name | 15:28 |
| kanzure | yep. | 15:32 |
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| F71 | back | 15:37 |
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| ParahSailin__ | i need to beg some Phanerochaete chrysosporium off of someone | 15:46 |
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| kanzure | yashgaroth: thx | 16:12 |
| yashgaroth | np | 16:12 |
| yashgaroth | virnovus: ion-exchange is the gold standard for protein purification, but generally you need several steps, versus a single step for affinity | 16:12 |
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| virnovus | yeah, i could stand to learn more about chemistry | 16:27 |
| ParahSailin__ | http://www.emiok.com/Damaged%20Freigth%20Uploads/2012-04-10-DF-Dis.htm | 16:30 |
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| yashgaroth | 85 gallons of basil oleoresin, yes please | 16:33 |
| azonenberg | diginet, kanzure: the smallest i've gotten is 20 microns | 16:38 |
| azonenberg | i hit 5 experimentally | 16:38 |
| azonenberg | but cant do so with any kind of reasonable yield | 16:38 |
| kanzure | azonenberg: we're building a laser cutter to do 1 micron resolution cuts in pdms and acrylic | 16:39 |
| azonenberg | kanzure: awesome, if you can do 1um patterning i may have uses for such a tool | 16:39 |
| azonenberg | mostly for failure analysis | 16:39 |
| azonenberg | cutting single wires etc | 16:39 |
| kanzure | well the goal is to keep this pretty cheap | 16:39 |
| kanzure | fenn: ping | 16:39 |
| azonenberg | Whats the price point | 16:39 |
| kanzure | well so far it looks like <2000 | 16:40 |
| @fenn | yes? | 16:40 |
| kanzure | fenn: i am about to leave for a few minutes and was hoping you'd play with azonenberg :( | 16:40 |
| kanzure | azonenberg: that 2k number does not include the laser yet, not sure about the total cost | 16:41 |
| azonenberg | kanzure: i see | 16:41 |
| azonenberg | Well | 16:41 |
| kanzure | azonenberg: actually we might be needing help with the optics | 16:41 |
| azonenberg | what i wanted to do was UV direct write lithography | 16:41 |
| kanzure | is this something you could help us with? | 16:41 |
| @fenn | azonenberg: well, it's all in design phase atm, who knows what spot size is realistic | 16:41 |
| azonenberg | low-power bluray diode (exposure, not ablation) | 16:41 |
| azonenberg | onto photoresist | 16:41 |
| azonenberg | on top of a chrome-on-glass mask | 16:41 |
| azonenberg | then develop, etch in HCl | 16:41 |
| azonenberg | and now you have a nice contact mask | 16:41 |
| @fenn | one problem i see there.. how do you get both fine lines and cover large areas? | 16:42 |
| azonenberg | you can use much faster scan speeds and lower laser powers if you do photoexposure instead of ablation | 16:42 |
| azonenberg | Large areas? | 16:42 |
| azonenberg | This is for a single IC die | 16:42 |
| @fenn | otherwise all your wires are 1 micron wide | 16:42 |
| azonenberg | Thats the goal | 16:43 |
| azonenberg | this is for IC fab lol | 16:43 |
| azonenberg | and i was thinking of panning the optics to cover a small area at high resolution | 16:43 |
| azonenberg | then stepping the stage | 16:43 |
| azonenberg | re-aligning somehow | 16:43 |
| azonenberg | and repeating | 16:43 |
| @fenn | wouldn't you have problems with wire resistance (RC time constant) | 16:43 |
| azonenberg | thats a much harder problem | 16:43 |
| azonenberg | Wire resistance is killiing modern processes | 16:43 |
| azonenberg | but at the 22nm node | 16:43 |
| azonenberg | at 1um its not an issue | 16:43 |
| azonenberg | if you buffer signals periodically | 16:43 |
| azonenberg | i mean on any long signal you will buffer every hundred microns (or less) | 16:44 |
| azonenberg | and high-fanout signals like clocks are pretty much defined by the buffering tree you use :p | 16:46 |
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| @fenn | i didn't realize there was that much buffering going on | 16:50 |
| @fenn | anyway we're moving the whole slide at 1:1 magnification, so "cover a small area at high resolution" doesn't make sense | 16:52 |
| katsmeow-afk | clock signals must be buffered because different loading causes time skew | 16:54 |
| katsmeow-afk | for the rest of it, use real metals :-) | 16:54 |
| azonenberg | fenn: whats the goal | 16:54 |
| azonenberg | katsmeow-afk: you mean copper? | 16:55 |
| azonenberg | I wanted to try copper damascene at some point | 16:55 |
| @fenn | direct etching PDMS films for microfluidics | 16:55 |
| azonenberg | oh | 16:55 |
| azonenberg | Never done any microfluidics | 16:55 |
| @fenn | me either | 16:55 |
| azonenberg | i'm more into silicon-based life forms :p | 16:55 |
| @fenn | PDMS is silicone :P | 16:55 |
| azonenberg | i know | 16:56 |
| azonenberg | but presumably you're doing it as a framework for carbon-based cells | 16:56 |
| @fenn | something like that | 16:56 |
| @fenn | we're going to need a spin coater to make the films | 16:57 |
| @fenn | so i'm interested in any progress you make on that | 16:57 |
| azonenberg | Ok | 16:57 |
| azonenberg | Well, i have the beginnings of a cad design and got distracted by class | 16:57 |
| azonenberg | I already made one that was dirt cheap | 16:57 |
| azonenberg | but it was bulky (so it didnt fit comfortably in my fume hood) | 16:57 |
| azonenberg | and had poor speed control | 16:57 |
| @fenn | yeah i'm wondering if a dremel will suffice | 16:57 |
| azonenberg | I used a hand drill | 16:57 |
| azonenberg | and a 2x4 to make the frame | 16:58 |
| azonenberg | and a sanding head | 16:58 |
| azonenberg | it works but lacks good speed control | 16:58 |
| azonenberg | poor uniformity | 16:58 |
| @fenn | right. angle grinder might work too | 16:58 |
| azonenberg | also, you will want a way to exhaust the solvent | 16:58 |
| katsmeow-afk | flammable solvent? | 16:58 |
| azonenberg | Whatever the film is dissolved in | 16:58 |
| azonenberg | in my case its somewhat flammable and a bit toxic too (as are most organic solvents) | 16:58 |
| azonenberg | So i built a fume hood | 16:58 |
| @fenn | add mass to rotor to smooth out the vibration from the gears, add tachometer and SCR to control speed | 16:58 |
| azonenberg | Pretty much | 16:59 |
| azonenberg | But i want mine to look nice :p | 16:59 |
| @fenn | i dont even know what a spin coater is supposed to look like anyway | 16:59 |
| @fenn | presumably some kind of box with lid and knobs | 16:59 |
| azonenberg | the main thing you need is | 16:59 |
| azonenberg | a chuck of some sort to hold the sample | 16:59 |
| azonenberg | some way of attaching the sample to it (tape, suction, etc) | 17:00 |
| azonenberg | Have the chuck be well balanced | 17:00 |
| @fenn | a chuck is just a smooth plate right? | 17:00 |
| azonenberg | Yes, you can also have holes in it for suction if you want vacuum adhesion instead of tape | 17:00 |
| azonenberg | i usually use tape | 17:00 |
| azonenberg | But have it be well balanced about the centerline so it wont vibrate too badly | 17:00 |
| azonenberg | Then some means of making it spin | 17:00 |
| azonenberg | you want 500 - 5k RPM range mostly | 17:00 |
| azonenberg | and you want to control the acceleration and speed | 17:00 |
| @fenn | maybe i can use a polisher, those have adjustable speed built in | 17:01 |
| azonenberg | Oh, and last but certainly not least | 17:01 |
| azonenberg | A spatter guard | 17:02 |
| azonenberg | Spin coating tends to be a messy process :p | 17:02 |
| @fenn | yes of course | 17:02 |
| @fenn | why is 5k the upper end of the range? | 17:03 |
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| azonenberg | Just based on past experience in terms of what various coatings needed | 17:04 |
| azonenberg | i dont recall having ever had to go faster | 17:04 |
| azonenberg | maybe 6k at most | 17:04 |
| azonenberg | But in general if you want a thinner film you can always dilute the stuff with a solvent | 17:05 |
| azonenberg | i do that with photoresist all the time | 17:05 |
| azonenberg | most of my coatings are 50% v/v with acetone | 17:05 |
| kanzure | pimp my spin coater http://openwetware.org/wiki/DIYbio/FAQ/Projects#DIY_Spin_Coater | 17:05 |
| kanzure | http://nathan.instras.com/projects/spin-coater/index.html | 17:06 |
| kanzure | use the second link | 17:06 |
| kanzure | hah he sells them on his ebay store. this guy is legit. | 17:06 |
| kanzure | "For about $70.00 dollars in parts and some ingenuity (and ofcourse access to the college's machine shop), I was able to put together the system shown below. Ironically, we latter purchased a commercial spin-coater for $5000.00" | 17:07 |
| @fenn | is that a CD spindle case used as the safety guard? | 17:07 |
| kanzure | i think it's a splatter guard | 17:07 |
| kanzure | with a corny video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1WjBfd8fX20 | 17:09 |
| ParahSailin__ | what do you spincoat using acetone | 17:10 |
| @fenn | so it's using a remote control airplane motor? | 17:15 |
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| kanzure | AND tape. not /just/ an RC motor | 17:16 |
| azonenberg | Also since there is no computer controlled ramp function, the ability to optimize the spinning process might be limited | 17:22 |
| azonenberg | I want to make one that does that | 17:22 |
| azonenberg | ParahSailin__: shipley SP24 photoresist | 17:22 |
| azonenberg | the solvent is somethign else | 17:22 |
| azonenberg | but i dont have any ethyl acetate on hand (the recommended solvent) | 17:22 |
| kanzure | a ramp function does not seem hard to me? | 17:23 |
| azonenberg | and acetone works just as well but it evaporates a bit fastr | 17:23 |
| azonenberg | its not hard | 17:23 |
| ParahSailin__ | yeah, acetone is a shitty solvent for spincoating -- too high of vapor pressure | 17:23 |
| azonenberg | but their unit lacks it | 17:23 |
| kanzure | their unit looks like a toy | 17:23 |
| azonenberg | Mine will be much nicer | 17:23 |
| azonenberg | SHouldnt be that hard | 17:23 |
| @fenn | ethyl acetate is recommended because it's less toxic than acetone | 17:23 |
| azonenberg | i just need to find time to work on it | 17:23 |
| azonenberg | fenn: Less toxic? I thought acetone was one of the least-nasty organic solvents around | 17:23 |
| @fenn | it is | 17:23 |
| ParahSailin__ | ethyl acetate has much lower vapor pressure also | 17:23 |
| azonenberg | and my PR has some nastier stuff in it | 17:24 |
| ParahSailin__ | which is good for making even coating | 17:24 |
| azonenberg | like 2-ethoxyethyl acetate and xylene and i think some toluene | 17:24 |
| azonenberg | I do all of my coating in a fume hood | 17:24 |
| azonenberg | Admittedly its a homebrewed hood | 17:24 |
| azonenberg | But it works | 17:24 |
| roksprok | http://www.ipgphotonics.com/Collateral/Documents/English-US/Pulsed_YTT_GLPM_10.pdf laser data sheet...they call it a 1 micron laser? | 17:25 |
| @fenn | that's the wavelength | 17:26 |
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| kanzure | heh i forgot about the xavier protocols | 18:00 |
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| nmz787 | yo | 18:31 |
| nmz787 | went out on a walk | 18:31 |
| kanzure | nmz787: something about spincoaters | 18:36 |
| nmz787 | i read | 18:36 |
| kanzure | http://openwetware.org/wiki/DIYbio/FAQ/Projects#DIY_Spin_Coater | 18:36 |
| kanzure | http://nathan.instras.com/projects/spin-coater/index.html | 18:36 |
| kanzure | http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1WjBfd8fX20 | 18:36 |
| nmz787 | wat time thurs? pst or est? | 18:36 |
| kanzure | pst | 18:36 |
| kanzure | are you around then? | 18:37 |
| nmz787 | 230PST? | 18:37 |
| kanzure | yes | 18:37 |
| nmz787 | thurs? | 18:37 |
| kanzure | well, 230 PDT.. | 18:38 |
| kanzure | yes | 18:38 |
| nmz787 | yes | 18:38 |
| nmz787 | i can do that | 18:38 |
| kanzure | ok. let's touch base 10-20min before the call | 18:38 |
| _Sketch_ | I hear there was robotic fabric that was used in Superman's cape in one of the movies. Is that a myth? I can't find anything about the stuff. | 18:38 |
| nmz787 | send me his email addy | 18:39 |
| kanzure | who's? | 18:39 |
| nmz787 | gibson, that's who we're talking to right? | 18:40 |
| kanzure | yes, but i don't have his email | 18:40 |
| kanzure | why do you need it | 18:40 |
| nmz787 | ahh | 18:40 |
| nmz787 | would send my cv | 18:40 |
| nmz787 | :D | 18:40 |
| nmz787 | right before | 18:40 |
| kanzure | haha hold off on that | 18:40 |
| kanzure | that is way too tacky | 18:41 |
| * yashgaroth quietly shelves his resume | 18:41 | |
| nmz787 | well he wants to get to know us, isnt that why he wants to talk? | 18:41 |
| nmz787 | who told you he wants to talk? | 18:42 |
| kanzure | his assistant | 18:42 |
| nmz787 | did he call someone, snail mail? | 18:42 |
| kanzure | and no don't send him our CVs | 18:42 |
| nmz787 | http://www.jcvi.org/cms/about/bios/dgibson/?iframe=true&width=80%25&height=80%25 | 18:44 |
| kanzure | nmz787: phone | 18:45 |
| kanzure | thx | 19:01 |
| n_bentha | yashgaroth! | 19:07 |
| yashgaroth | ! | 19:07 |
| n_bentha | did u find a job:? | 19:07 |
| n_bentha | nice | 19:08 |
| yashgaroth | heh maybe we'll see how the drug test goes | 19:08 |
| yashgaroth | if they wait til next week to do it I'll be fine | 19:08 |
| yashgaroth | or if this other company hurries up and interviews me I won't need to worry | 19:10 |
| n_bentha | i knew that was going to come up | 19:10 |
| n_bentha | just get some pee from me | 19:10 |
| n_bentha | i haven't smoked since almost 2 years ago | 19:10 |
| kanzure | ah yes the secret ##hplusroadmap urinal trading group | 19:10 |
| n_bentha | urine* | 19:11 |
| kanzure | no we're trading physical urinals | 19:11 |
| yashgaroth | I had a tiiiiny bit a few days ago while watching some mst3k, so I'll just drink a lot of water beforehand | 19:11 |
| yashgaroth | what do they expect?! I'm unemployed ffs | 19:11 |
| yashgaroth | but yeah it's only big biotech where they test...for the most part | 19:12 |
| kanzure | why are you even.. what? | 19:12 |
| kanzure | find some better jobs man | 19:12 |
| yashgaroth | but I'm lazy | 19:12 |
| yashgaroth | too lazy for weed? we shall see | 19:13 |
| yashgaroth | I can always not accept their offer :/ | 19:14 |
| n_bentha | or you can just fail the test and see if they will still hire you | 19:18 |
| n_bentha | ? | 19:18 |
| yashgaroth | heh I doubt they would, or at least by then I'd pass a retest | 19:18 |
| kanzure | fenn: are we ordering xy stage parts | 19:22 |
| @fenn | please restate the question in the form of an answer | 19:23 |
| kanzure | we need a checklist | 19:24 |
| kanzure | .. or something | 19:24 |
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| @fenn | i've been adding to the google doc | 19:25 |
| kanzure | oh. i didn't check that. | 19:25 |
| kanzure | clicking.. | 19:25 |
| kanzure | the optical table is $3500 but the grand total is 2882? | 19:26 |
| @fenn | i'm not sure where to get helical couplers.. $35 each sounds retarded, but so does waiting for weeks for hong kong to shop | 19:26 |
| @fenn | ship* | 19:26 |
| @fenn | on the other hand i could just use rubber hose until hong kong ships | 19:26 |
| @fenn | it's not a critical component | 19:26 |
| kanzure | oh nevermind. total is for the other column. | 19:26 |
| @fenn | i think the table is overkill | 19:27 |
| kanzure | can we also have a repeatability column? | 19:27 |
| kanzure | or some other name for that aspect | 19:27 |
| @fenn | oh, like custom-ness | 19:27 |
| @fenn | or surplus-ness | 19:27 |
| kanzure | surplusness :) | 19:27 |
| @fenn | pretty sure we can shop around a bit more than just ordering from thor labs or newport | 19:30 |
| @fenn | anyway i think you should buy that stepper with integrated driver even if we don't use it (he has 4 of them) | 19:30 |
| kanzure | from ebay? | 19:31 |
| @fenn | yeah | 19:31 |
| kanzure | how many do you want | 19:31 |
| @fenn | um, 2 is good | 19:31 |
| n_bentha | a baker's dozen, please | 19:31 |
| @fenn | 4 is not crazy | 19:31 |
| * n_bentha is typing nonsense. don't listen. | 19:31 | |
| nmz787 | i agree | 19:32 |
| kanzure | er. so 2 or 4? | 19:32 |
| nmz787 | only thing i dont know about is the amperage | 19:32 |
| nmz787 | might as well get 4 | 19:32 |
| nmz787 | wait | 19:32 |
| nmz787 | is lin silverpak a good manufacturer? | 19:33 |
| nmz787 | http://www.linengineering.com/LinE/contents/stepmotors/SilverPak_17C.aspx | 19:33 |
| kanzure | http://www.ebay.com/itm/NEW-Nema17-Stepper-Motor-7-5-ohm-0-8-Amp-1-8-Deg-3400g-cm-CNC-Reprap-Arduino-/180790704516?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item2a17f73984 | 19:33 |
| kanzure | is this the one? | 19:33 |
| @fenn | this is what i'm talking about http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=280852865243 | 19:33 |
| kanzure | it'si n oakland? | 19:33 |
| nmz787 | yes | 19:33 |
| kanzure | can you just go pick that up? | 19:33 |
| kanzure | wtf | 19:33 |
| nmz787 | and that is the link to who made it | 19:34 |
| kanzure | should i grab this through ebay or through the site? | 19:34 |
| nmz787 | how much torque do we need? | 19:34 |
| nmz787 | to efficiently microstep? | 19:34 |
| kanzure | oh boy "Stores up to 16 different programs at once with 4 kBytes of memory" | 19:35 |
| @fenn | yeah i don't plan on using that | 19:35 |
| nmz787 | NO FULL STEP | 19:35 |
| nmz787 | weird | 19:35 |
| kanzure | "Step Resolutions of full step, 1/2, 1/4, 1/8," | 19:36 |
| kanzure | does this include the rs485-to-usb converter? | 19:36 |
| @fenn | looks like it | 19:37 |
| @fenn | oh wait not usb | 19:37 |
| @fenn | its the rs485 to rs232 converter | 19:37 |
| kanzure | i don't have anything with rs232 anymore :( | 19:38 |
| nmz787 | i have them listed on the spreadsheet | 19:38 |
| @fenn | so, what i'd like to know, is it possible to drive this with step/direction commands? | 19:38 |
| kanzure | fenn: nmz787 could i convince one of you to call them and ask before i purchase it? | 19:39 |
| @fenn | it doesn't look like it | 19:39 |
| kanzure | also, how are we going to do rs232 in our project | 19:39 |
| kanzure | oh it's probably just power-over-pin or something | 19:40 |
| @fenn | basically i just want to mess around with some junk | 19:41 |
| @fenn | this has most of the parts i'm buying already assembled into something | 19:41 |
| nmz787 | sort of | 19:41 |
| nmz787 | more like vectors | 19:41 |
| nmz787 | you tell it how many steps to move, and in which direction | 19:42 |
| @fenn | H04 means to Halt until it sees a low, or 0, on input #4 | 19:42 |
| @fenn | P5000 move the motor in the positive direction by 5000 steps | 19:42 |
| @fenn | R is to run this string of commands | 19:42 |
| @fenn | er, the command is "1H04P50000R | 19:42 |
| nmz787 | so curves would be weird | 19:42 |
| @fenn | nmz787: i agree | 19:43 |
| nmz787 | this is similar (i wonder if ripped off of) to the boards i have picked | 19:43 |
| @fenn | also, how do you synchronize two motors? | 19:43 |
| nmz787 | (or if allmotion's board is the controller in this) | 19:43 |
| nmz787 | but the allmotion controller, i know, can do step/dir | 19:43 |
| nmz787 | kanzure: the reason the total is 2800 but the optical table is 3500.... is because the second column is # required, and the table has a 0 | 19:44 |
| nmz787 | kanzure fenn: the laser is there though | 19:45 |
| @fenn | i have a 4 axis board from hong kong that can do 16x microstepping ($75) | 19:45 |
| nmz787 | i will get a piece of black acrylic this week and try burning it with the 830nm diode laser i have | 19:45 |
| kanzure | nmz787: got it.. also, i didn't see the gantry and laser costs were separated. a $400 gantry makes way more sense than $2800 :) | 19:45 |
| nmz787 | with a fiber coupled laser the optics will be easier and less parts | 19:46 |
| kanzure | fenn: i am totally unclear on whether that ebay'd part is something i should get you or not | 19:46 |
| @fenn | kanzure: me too | 19:46 |
| @fenn | kanzure: basically, you can buy a helical coupler for $35, or a helical coupler and stepper and linear slide and leadscrew and nut and bracket for $65 | 19:47 |
| @fenn | and driver | 19:47 |
| @fenn | make sense/ | 19:47 |
| kanzure | sort of. is this stuff useful if the electronics is crap | 19:48 |
| @fenn | i think so | 19:48 |
| nmz787 | gantry price didnt include the stepper controllers | 19:48 |
| nmz787 | now it is $981 | 19:48 |
| @fenn | your stepper controllers are overpriced | 19:49 |
| nmz787 | they are solid though | 19:49 |
| nmz787 | i've used them before | 19:49 |
| nmz787 | find something comparable | 19:50 |
| @fenn | we need at most something like http://www.pololu.com/catalog/product/1182 | 19:50 |
| kanzure | fenn: ok. i'll grab two. | 19:50 |
| nmz787 | kanzure: not being able to do step dir is a problem, fenn? | 19:50 |
| @fenn | yes, for one it complicates the software problem, and two it probably won't work at all if the drivers are separate | 19:51 |
| @fenn | how do you synchronize two independent controllers? | 19:51 |
| nmz787 | you said you wanted step/dir | 19:51 |
| nmz787 | that can be synchronous | 19:51 |
| @fenn | correct | 19:51 |
| nmz787 | you could do sync with this too | 19:51 |
| nmz787 | but i bet there is a lag | 19:52 |
| @fenn | over rs232? i dont get what you're saying | 19:52 |
| nmz787 | so the determination is harder | 19:52 |
| nmz787 | because you send a program over | 19:52 |
| nmz787 | then tell it to execute | 19:52 |
| nmz787 | its parsing the serial string | 19:52 |
| nmz787 | rather than just TTL for step dir | 19:52 |
| @fenn | once again, "it's so easy!" makes my life hell | 19:53 |
| nmz787 | its enough of a parser that you can send it loops and stuff in the cmd string | 19:53 |
| nmz787 | so i imagine there is some lag, yes | 19:53 |
| nmz787 | if its short enough, then its no worry | 19:53 |
| kanzure | i worry so much about buying motion controllers and steppers for fenn | 19:54 |
| nmz787 | i guess it would just limit the speed at which we could cut curves? | 19:54 |
| kanzure | he's going to build a mobile gundam suit and fucking blow up san francisco | 19:54 |
| nmz787 | :P | 19:54 |
| * fenn grumbles | 19:54 | |
| @fenn | option a) spend $225 on something complicated and stupid that won't ever work | 19:55 |
| kanzure | fenn: no giant man-eating robots ok? | 19:55 |
| @fenn | option b) spend $12 on something better and easy and guaranteed to work | 19:55 |
| @fenn | grr stupid google docs | 19:57 |
| @fenn | i can't paste a url without it navigating to that url | 19:57 |
| nmz787 | where is the $12 part? | 19:58 |
| @fenn | http://www.pololu.com/catalog/product/1182 | 19:58 |
| kanzure | wow am i this bad at ebaying? | 19:58 |
| kanzure | it won't let me change my address before i press 'commit to buy' | 19:59 |
| @fenn | nmz787: it needs heatsinks | 19:59 |
| n_bentha | ebay sucks | 19:59 |
| n_bentha | and ya kanzure, you just say commit to buy and enter the shipping address in after | 20:00 |
| kanzure | isn't this the awful company that bought paypal | 20:00 |
| n_bentha | yeah | 20:00 |
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| flamoot | when it's starting to nimoy, it kind of sounds like whales | 20:01 |
| flamoot | great evolving grid | 20:01 |
| flamoot | pan the frame back off the list of views using J and K | 20:01 |
| flamoot | off the top or bottom, | 20:01 |
| flamoot | to get back to the evolved sound | 20:01 |
| flamoot | http://ansistego.sf.net/stim-mingw.zip | 20:01 |
| flamoot | windows | 20:01 |
| flamoot | http://ansistego.sf.net/stim.tgz linux | 20:01 |
| kanzure | oh neato paypal has been holding some spare change hostage | 20:01 |
| flamoot | . and , do volume | 20:01 |
| flamoot | i got it just perfect now | 20:01 |
| nmz787 | fenn: i'm interested in 256 microstepping experiments, my thinking is it may increase wall smoothness | 20:01 |
| flamoot | makes a sound wave, you can change the wav file to anything | 20:01 |
| flamoot | i've only been doing this population a day | 20:02 |
| flamoot | and they make nimoy like sounds already | 20:02 |
| flamoot | that's the fitness function | 20:02 |
| flamoot | http://ansistego.sf.net/stim.tgz linux | 20:02 |
| nmz787 | hi flamoot! | 20:02 |
| flamoot | gcc -O3 -lSDL -lSDL_mixer -ffast-math | 20:02 |
| flamoot | sup nmz787 | 20:02 |
| nmz787 | what are you up to? | 20:02 |
| flamoot | i just added a view of every view and the ability to render other views as sound sources, | 20:02 |
| flamoot | nothing really | 20:02 |
| nmz787 | i dont have the SDL libs | 20:02 |
| flamoot | i'll make a cigarette. i'm evolving some cells | 20:02 |
| flamoot | too bad | 20:03 |
| flamoot | get windows one | 20:03 |
| nmz787 | :( | 20:03 |
| flamoot | http://ansistego.sf.net/stim-mingw.zip wiondows | 20:03 |
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| kanzure | i wonder how many times we will have to do that | 20:03 |
| nmz787 | i wondered when someone would do it | 20:03 |
| nmz787 | its kind of funny | 20:03 |
| kanzure | this guy is unbeatable | 20:03 |
| kanzure | good for him? | 20:03 |
| nmz787 | nah | 20:04 |
| nmz787 | it could prob get bad | 20:04 |
| kanzure | fenn: ok it should be at your place in a few days | 20:04 |
| @fenn | whee | 20:04 |
| kanzure | that checkout process was terrible | 20:04 |
| @fenn | it may come in handy for other projects, anything requiring simple motion back and forth | 20:05 |
| @fenn | or i can just pillage it for parts | 20:05 |
| kanzure | why am i shipping to 15 langton st? i thought it was 9 langton | 20:05 |
| nmz787 | fenn: how about this http://www.st.com/internet/com/TECHNICAL_RESOURCES/TECHNICAL_LITERATURE/APPLICATION_NOTE/CD00004339.pdf | 20:06 |
| @fenn | 15 is our mailbox.. though they will probably knock on the 9 door | 20:06 |
| kanzure | 20:03 <flamoot> gonna use it to crack captchas next | 20:06 |
| kanzure | 20:03 <flamoot> spam 4chan about my implant again | 20:06 |
| kanzure | well. if i ever have problems with libsdl and neural nets i guess i know who to ask. | 20:07 |
| nmz787 | :P | 20:07 |
| nmz787 | yes | 20:07 |
| @fenn | nmz787: i don't get it, why do "analog" microstepping if you can get a 256 microstepping chip ready to go? (maybe i'm misunderstanding that data sheet) | 20:08 |
| nmz787 | fenn: http://www.mouser.com/Search/ProductDetail.aspx?qs=9iSXU9KXrZlShsRPXWEX1w%3D%3D | 20:08 |
| nmz787 | fenn: that pululu didnt do more than 1/16 | 20:09 |
| kanzure | "You sent a payment to Dan Goldstein (xxknick1972@hotmail.com)" | 20:09 |
| nmz787 | i wish allegro made a 256 chip | 20:09 |
| nmz787 | they seem easier to use | 20:09 |
| kanzure | why does it say my name is my dad's :( | 20:10 |
| @fenn | nmz787: another thing you might not have thought about.. the more microsteps you have, the more "step" pulses you need to make to cover a given distance. this can be difficult to achieve with standard pc hardware (and software) such as i'm planning on using | 20:13 |
| @fenn | typical step rates are 20kHz.. any higher and you start running into time quantization errors (because the realtime loop can only run so fast, an afaik nobody's written a "NOP" inter-loop delay yet) | 20:16 |
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| nmz787 | fenn: there are these chinese ones http://www.ebay.com/itm/CNC-Stepper-Motor-Driver-1-0-4-5A-Support-Nema17-Nema23-Nema34-DC20-50V-256-Step-/220957090029?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item337211a0ed | 20:16 |
| nmz787 | i thought we were controlling with a propeller? | 20:16 |
| @fenn | why would you think that? | 20:17 |
| nmz787 | runs at 100mhz easily | 20:17 |
| nmz787 | with 8 cores | 20:17 |
| nmz787 | there's your snch | 20:17 |
| @fenn | and how are you going to control it | 20:17 |
| nmz787 | synchronous | 20:17 |
| nmz787 | send it a file with the path | 20:17 |
| @fenn | please elaborate | 20:18 |
| nmz787 | i thought kanzure was going to write some software for CAD for this stuff | 20:18 |
| @fenn | no, that's ridiculous | 20:18 |
| nmz787 | and the output would be a list of vector paths | 20:18 |
| kanzure | gcode? | 20:18 |
| @fenn | you need firmware running on the propeller or whatever to interpret those commands and actually twiddle pin voltages | 20:19 |
| nmz787 | right | 20:19 |
| @fenn | i also would like some kind of UI running on a pc so i can see what the motion controller thinks it's doing | 20:20 |
| @fenn | fortunately, someone's already written a very good motion control system that runs on old commodity pc hardware | 20:20 |
| @fenn | with an interface and lots of documentation etc | 20:21 |
| kanzure | er weren't you the one who wrote parts of that | 20:21 |
| @fenn | http://linuxcnc.org/ | 20:21 |
| @fenn | yeah, so i'm biased | 20:21 |
| @fenn | also, the parallax propeller always struck me as someone's first attempt at doing a chip fab | 20:22 |
| nmz787 | http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=3676939654724547603 | 20:22 |
| nmz787 | says its interpreting g/m code | 20:22 |
| @fenn | presumably it's drawing something | 20:23 |
| nmz787 | fenn: how many microsteps can linuxcnc do with PC? | 20:23 |
| @fenn | i'm sorry i don't find that video very convincing | 20:23 |
| @fenn | nmz787: the limiting factor isn't "how many microsteps" it's "what's the maximum step rate on X CPU", which is usually 20-50kHz | 20:24 |
| @fenn | though it works better if you don't push it to max | 20:24 |
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| nmz787 | i see | 20:25 |
| nmz787 | so does linuxcnc open SVG or what? | 20:25 |
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| nmz787 | how is the process flow? | 20:25 |
| @fenn | you can set up custom scripts to interpret different file types such as svg, but really it's designed to take g-code | 20:26 |
| @fenn | there's a plugin for inkscape to export g-code, and maybe some more tools have sprouted up in the past 2 years | 20:26 |
| nmz787 | ahh | 20:28 |
| @fenn | "G-code pretty complicated. I wrote an interpreter a few years ago that implemented most of the codes, but ran out of Propeller memory before it could be finished. Still there was enough to do some X/Y table printing, etc... The PC application would read the G-code and send it to the Propeller an instruction at a time. Sadly all of that work was lost in one of my computer disasters. Here's a | 20:28 |
| @fenn | video of the system running: " | 20:28 |
| nmz787 | hmm | 20:28 |
| @fenn | gosh that poll is still up on the linuxcnc page | 20:29 |
| @fenn | well i guess it's "stable" | 20:29 |
| nmz787 | couldn't you literally just send step/dir from the PC | 20:30 |
| nmz787 | if we use serial, we're talking Mbaud rates | 20:30 |
| @fenn | yeah, that's what linuxcnc does (step/dir over parallel port) | 20:30 |
| nmz787 | why is the limit of linux cnc 500khz | 20:31 |
| nmz787 | 50* | 20:31 |
| @fenn | something about ISA frequency being slow | 20:31 |
| nmz787 | right but USB 1 is in the Mbaud | 20:31 |
| @fenn | ISA clock is 1MHz and it takes 2 bus cycles to complete a register update | 20:31 |
| nmz787 | it sounds like you're saying linuxcnc needs updated | 20:31 |
| nmz787 | is that possible? | 20:31 |
| @fenn | sigh | 20:32 |
| nmz787 | if kanzure anyway thought of some custom software | 20:32 |
| @fenn | hold on | 20:32 |
| kanzure | any software i've mentioned before was not controller related | 20:32 |
| @fenn | there are several branches in this parameter space one could take | 20:32 |
| @fenn | one is to forget about steppers entirely | 20:33 |
| * kanzure ponders why his dishwasher has stopped | 20:33 | |
| @fenn | use a servo motor with an encoder with as much resolution as you need | 20:33 |
| nmz787 | (i'm not trying to sound aggressive, i just want to explore the space thoroughly before we make long-lasting decisions) | 20:33 |
| nmz787 | is that a better option? | 20:34 |
| @fenn | another is to use the Pico systems board, (i forget the model number) which makes a stepper with too many microsteps appear like a servo interface to linuxcnc | 20:34 |
| nmz787 | we had also talked about the interferometer as an encoder | 20:34 |
| @fenn | i think mesa electronics also makes a board like this | 20:34 |
| nmz787 | though avoiding that will save us time | 20:35 |
| @fenn | interferometers are black magic | 20:35 |
| @fenn | having never used one and heard many horror stories, i'm reluctant to consider that a viable option | 20:35 |
| nmz787 | $250 | 20:35 |
| nmz787 | http://pico-systems.com/univstep.html | 20:35 |
| nmz787 | interferometers are not black magic, they are just cool physics | 20:36 |
| nmz787 | taming that may be black art | 20:36 |
| nmz787 | i will concede | 20:36 |
| nmz787 | the pico thing says it doesnt include drivers | 20:37 |
| nmz787 | oh wow its got an FPGA | 20:37 |
| nmz787 | you know its good :P | 20:37 |
| @fenn | correct, it's just an interface board | 20:37 |
| @fenn | anyway at that point you might as well just get a servo with encoders | 20:37 |
| nmz787 | i think the pico looks like a good solution | 20:38 |
| nmz787 | does linux CNC do that? | 20:38 |
| nmz787 | wouldn't it be speed limited? | 20:39 |
| nmz787 | what about holding current? we aren't really pushing anything | 20:39 |
| @fenn | ah i see what you're saying | 20:40 |
| @fenn | i don't know what the limiting factor would be with the pico | 20:41 |
| @fenn | i also don't think we should design the first iteration as pushing the envelope | 20:42 |
| diginet | transformation would probably be more complicated, but I think for large scale production, a plant based expression system would be ideal over a yeast based one | 20:42 |
| nmz787 | diginet: longer generation time though | 20:43 |
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| nmz787 | diginet: maybe harder to lyse too... plants don't really do secretion as easily as broth culture IMO | 20:44 |
| kanzure | nmz787: does fenn's comments make sense | 20:44 |
| kanzure | *do | 20:44 |
| nmz787 | he said to use a servo | 20:45 |
| nmz787 | i think it depends on the resolution attainable by the encoder | 20:45 |
| nmz787 | like i said, we're not really pushing anything, so we don't need holding torque, which is one reason steppers are good | 20:46 |
| nmz787 | (steppers can hold in place well*) | 20:46 |
| @fenn | what i'm saying is, if you need high speed combined with high resolution, use a servo | 20:46 |
| nmz787 | i don't neccesarily think we need high speed | 20:47 |
| @fenn | then just bit-bang the parallel port as usual | 20:47 |
| nmz787 | but does linux CNC handle encoders and servos? | 20:47 |
| @fenn | yes, but you need third party interface boards | 20:47 |
| diginet | nmz787, good point, however I'm reading a paper on transgenic tobacco, where they basically baked the plant, but due to the heat-stability of the protein, the silk precursors were unscathed | 20:48 |
| @fenn | i think it's OK if rev. 1 is slow, at least it will show that we can cut channels | 20:49 |
| nmz787 | ahh, what's wrong with the silkworms? | 20:49 |
| nmz787 | dont they already have secretion integrated and working "P | 20:49 |
| nmz787 | ?:P | 20:49 |
| nmz787 | fenn i also think that estabilshing what step/movement resolution is acceptable | 20:50 |
| nmz787 | if the channels are any better at 1/256 or if we can't tell after 1/16 | 20:50 |
| nmz787 | or if a servo (analog) is really the way to go | 20:50 |
| @fenn | right | 20:51 |
| kanzure | wait what's the speed difference on the xy? | 20:52 |
| kanzure | *gantry | 20:52 |
| @fenn | also you can test faster cutting speeds even with the same setup, just by changing the microstep setting | 20:52 |
| @fenn | at 20kHz, maximum speed would be 3969 microns/s @ 16 microstep, or 248 microns/s @ 256 microstep | 20:53 |
| nmz787 | oh man | 20:54 |
| nmz787 | thats pretty slow | 20:54 |
| @fenn | yeah | 20:54 |
| @fenn | microns are small | 20:54 |
| nmz787 | so encoders | 20:54 |
| nmz787 | do you know anything about them? | 20:54 |
| @fenn | yeah | 20:54 |
| nmz787 | how many microns per tick can we get? | 20:55 |
| @fenn | btw it would take [37 seconds at 16 microsteps or 10 minutes] to cut your hypothetical 15cm droplet storage feature | 20:55 |
| @fenn | 10 minutes at 256* | 20:56 |
| @fenn | a 64 cpr encoder is pretty rough | 20:56 |
| nmz787 | (using linuxcnc it would take those times) | 20:57 |
| @fenn | right | 20:57 |
| nmz787 | it seems stupid that its limited to khz | 20:57 |
| nmz787 | but ok | 20:57 |
| @fenn | yeah it's a research area nobody's been able to figure out, because it involves writing new realtime linux kernels for other processors | 20:57 |
| nmz787 | well 16 uSteps is .19 microns | 20:58 |
| kanzure | 0.19 microns is pretty good | 20:58 |
| kanzure | i'll take that | 20:58 |
| nmz787 | 198nm is still big enough for proteins to get caught in | 20:59 |
| nmz787 | but it sounds good to start | 20:59 |
| @fenn | unless you stop and wait at every step, inertia will blend out the jaggies | 20:59 |
| kanzure | photolithography masks have limits too, no? | 20:59 |
| nmz787 | yeah | 20:59 |
| nmz787 | usually for feature size though | 20:59 |
| nmz787 | the nice masks are made with electron beams | 21:00 |
| nmz787 | ablating chrome | 21:00 |
| @fenn | just because there's so much information packed onto each mask | 21:00 |
| @fenn | it's like a giant chinese character | 21:00 |
| nmz787 | so i guess smoothness there depends on their magnet power controller | 21:00 |
| kanzure | hm? no i mean why would a photomask not have jagged edges | 21:00 |
| nmz787 | diffraction probably smooths things out | 21:01 |
| kanzure | hmm | 21:01 |
| @fenn | it would have noise and quantization errors | 21:01 |
| nmz787 | but hopefully fenn is right about inertia | 21:01 |
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| nmz787 | the step size is definitely smaller than the 25 microns of the laser i have downstairs | 21:02 |
| katsmeow-afk | he is, just keep it moving | 21:02 |
| @fenn | you'd need a bastard of a DAC to aim an electron beam that well | 21:02 |
| nmz787 | well its also a reduction mask | 21:02 |
| nmz787 | so its bigger then optics make the image smaller | 21:03 |
| @fenn | yeah but how many bits do you need to specify any given position on the mask at so and so resolution | 21:03 |
| nmz787 | right, theres some math to be done to figure that out | 21:03 |
| @fenn | they always publish photographs of the actual chip die. i've never seen a photo of a modern chip mask | 21:04 |
| katsmeow-afk | two multiplying dacs | 21:04 |
| diginet | wow, duckweed might just be the perfect expression system: it can double it's mass in 24 hours and up to 50% of its dry weight in protein | 21:05 |
| @fenn | nmz787: more microstepping means we can use coarser (and less expensive, theoretically) leadscrews, but if the tradeoff is that the electronics cost more then it's a poor tradeoff | 21:06 |
| @fenn | cnc is an expensive hobby | 21:06 |
| @fenn | i need to pick some cheap hobbies next time | 21:07 |
| kanzure | double the number of axes! no, triple it! | 21:07 |
| kanzure | we will use a 6-axis laser cutter | 21:07 |
| nmz787 | f that | 21:07 |
| @fenn | n-dimensional holographic atom laser, i choose you! | 21:07 |
| nmz787 | z is something we haven't talked about | 21:07 |
| nmz787 | we'll need to have a fine adjust on the Z | 21:08 |
| nmz787 | probably only 1/2 inch or so | 21:09 |
| nmz787 | it would be nice if it was CNC | 21:09 |
| kanzure | how precise would it have to be to be useful | 21:09 |
| kanzure | erm. what step size would be useful on z | 21:09 |
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| nmz787 | depends on the focal point/numerical aperature | 21:10 |
| nmz787 | i.e. the angle of the focusing light cone | 21:10 |
| nmz787 | i haven't memorized the simple geometrical calculations to do this stuff yet | 21:10 |
| kanzure | what's the story with max? | 21:11 |
| kanzure | is he able to help here? | 21:11 |
| @fenn | have you talked to max reason? | 21:11 |
| kanzure | nathan emailed me and max | 21:11 |
| nmz787 | i know the beam diameter of the fiber laser i have is 60 microns | 21:11 |
| kanzure | i'm not sure who max is | 21:11 |
| nmz787 | he hasn't mailed bacl | 21:11 |
| @fenn | i read icegods.com and ready to sign up for my cult indoctrination right away | 21:11 |
| kanzure | "We call ourselves icegods.* We are a very quiet, private and international team of dedicated scientist-engineers and benefactors who combined resources to create an extraordinary future." | 21:12 |
| kanzure | "Our members invent, discover and develop technologies, techniques, software and devices, contribute them to our endeavor, then carefully plan and implement our projects, missions, goals. We are independent, and not affiliated with any business or government." | 21:12 |
| nmz787 | and the diameter of the CO2 laser is around 2mm | 21:12 |
| kanzure | "Our reasons to work and collaborate are simple, but extremely rare, especially in modern times. We are creating our own environments and futures, from scratch, in ways and forms we choose, for our own benefit and enjoyment. In some ways, we are super-technological analogs of pioneers who created new futures in wilderness americas hundreds or thousands of years ago." | 21:12 |
| kanzure | oh hell this turns into a consciousness thing? | 21:12 |
| kanzure | so much potential :( | 21:13 |
| @fenn | what about consciousness? | 21:13 |
| @fenn | i thought he was working on AI to design space probes | 21:14 |
| kanzure | "The answers are unconventional, unpublished and our confidential proprietary technologies." | 21:14 |
| @fenn | i was going to email asking why they thought it necessary to keep development secret | 21:14 |
| kanzure | probably because their consciousness claims are bullshit | 21:15 |
| @fenn | probably, but that would be obvious upon demonstration | 21:16 |
| kanzure | "We do not re-invent wheels. We adopt the best technologies whenever they are adequate, and develop our own proprietary technologies & capabilities as necessary (and rarely subcontract). The details of our projects and missions are highly confidential, and known only by our members. Therefore, we do not seek or hire employees." | 21:16 |
| nmz787 | why even have a webpage? | 21:16 |
| kanzure | machoism | 21:17 |
| ybit | sounds like the neighbordhood candy kids club | 21:17 |
| @fenn | although they do not hire employees, they do seek collaborators | 21:18 |
| ybit | fenn: first time i've seen you with the op badge | 21:18 |
| kanzure | ugh "The nature and function of consciousness are: awareness of existence and reaction to it." | 21:19 |
| * fenn flexes his digital muscles | 21:19 | |
| kanzure | this just sounds horrible | 21:19 |
| ybit | what are you doing doing patroling these parts? | 21:19 |
| kanzure | i offloaded ops to fenn so that i don't have to deal with flamoot | 21:19 |
| kanzure | it's his problem now | 21:19 |
| @fenn | ybit: so far i've blasted a drug-addled critterding | 21:19 |
| ybit | i didn't know he was still around | 21:19 |
| kanzure | i think they are lying: "Furthermore, consciousness is an utterly natural process and a natural part of existence." | 21:19 |
| kanzure | this is not rigorous and angers me | 21:20 |
| @fenn | somebody call the ghost of bertrand russell | 21:21 |
| virnovus | and a high school english teacher | 21:22 |
| kanzure | why do they have to rely on consciousness to figure they need to build space probes and space habitats? | 21:22 |
| virnovus | I'd be cool with joining a cult if they could just give me drugs that would pull me out of this depression | 21:27 |
| kanzure | cult of prozac? | 21:27 |
| virnovus | nah, prozac sucked, for me anyway | 21:27 |
| @fenn | try eating less carbohydrates | 21:27 |
| @fenn | and more exercise | 21:27 |
| virnovus | heh, you sound like my dad | 21:28 |
| kanzure | he is your dad | 21:28 |
| kanzure | you just ruined the end to season 4 | 21:28 |
| virnovus | season 4? | 21:29 |
| virnovus | i've tried exercising too, i don't know, nothing every seems to work long-term | 21:30 |
| thylne | >_> http://i.imgur.com/Yaspn.jpg | 21:30 |
| virnovus | i think it's settling into a routine that triggers depression | 21:31 |
| kanzure | ybit: what are you up to? | 21:31 |
| virnovus | whose tattoo? | 21:33 |
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| virnovus | apparently some guy signed up to a mailing list wrong, so now I'm getting emails from the Colorado Tea Party | 21:36 |
| kanzure | nmz787: so it sounds like next steps are more clearly outlining what we need to know to get the optics right on the first pass | 21:37 |
| ybit | kanzure: trying to figure out if i'm spreading myself too thin and if so, where | 21:37 |
| kanzure | orr find someone who can help us out on that front | 21:38 |
| kanzure | ybit: too thin? you're doing like nothing? | 21:38 |
| kanzure | i thought you stopped school again? | 21:38 |
| klafka | arrgh | 21:41 |
| klafka | i can't think about this clustering stuff atm | 21:42 |
| kanzure | klafka: throw it into hierarchical k-means and call it a night | 21:42 |
| klafka | i am going to do hierarchial clustering based off something like a word ontology | 21:42 |
| diginet | does anyone know what the record is in terms of g/L for recombitant protein expression? | 21:45 |
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| nmz787 | kanzure fenn: i still don't see the motion situation solved | 21:58 |
| kanzure | "Lock wait timeout exceeded; try restarting transaction (code: 1205, sql state: HY000" | 21:58 |
| kanzure | nmz787: what's unresolved? besides z | 21:59 |
| nmz787 | the spreadsheet still lists those expensive stepper controllers | 22:00 |
| nmz787 | we started talking servos, and didnt get anywhere | 22:01 |
| kanzure | fenn: pinnnng | 22:01 |
| ybit | you're doing like nothing? | 22:01 |
| ybit | i'm afraid of that | 22:01 |
| kanzure | ybit: yeah i thought you went to school, and now you're not? | 22:01 |
| kanzure | i mean, doing things other than school can count | 22:01 |
| ybit | school ends in 3-4 weeks | 22:01 |
| kanzure | but i haven't heard from you | 22:02 |
| ybit | school means nothing to me | 22:02 |
| kanzure | oh oh. i see | 22:02 |
| nmz787 | fenn: do we want the larger version from polulu that has reverse-power protection and onboard volage regulators? | 22:11 |
| nmz787 | fenn: the extra $7 per driver seems worth it | 22:12 |
| nmz787 | fenn: also what kind of plate are we bolting this to? I guess this depends on if we're using CO2 or NIR lasers | 22:23 |
| nmz787 | I'll get a sheet of black acrylic tomorrow for testing | 22:23 |
| kanzure | aren't there other advantages to a co2 laser? | 22:24 |
| kanzure | i know a co2 laser will be more costly (both in price and in maintenance) | 22:24 |
| nmz787 | can cut more materials i guess | 22:24 |
| katsmeow-afk | prolly won't crack if hot | 22:24 |
| kanzure | sounds good in my book? | 22:24 |
| nmz787 | but that's not really something we're concerned about i guess | 22:24 |
| kanzure | will NIR diodes do acrylic/glass? | 22:25 |
| nmz787 | won't crack if hot doesnt make sense to me | 22:25 |
| katsmeow-afk | large solid lasers can crack if heated or cooled too fast | 22:25 |
| katsmeow-afk | gas vaoprs don't | 22:25 |
| nmz787 | thats what i have to find out... NIR probably wont do clear acryluc | 22:25 |
| kanzure | i mean, we don't want to be replacing the co2 laser every 6 months | 22:26 |
| nmz787 | well the tubes are pretty cheap for # of hours | 22:26 |
| nmz787 | 1000 hours or so for $100 - $200 | 22:26 |
| kanzure | oh that's not bad i guess | 22:27 |
| nmz787 | fenn kanzure: if we're using a CO2 laser, it would be easiest if we used a longer plate | 22:27 |
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| kanzure | wb | 22:29 |
| nmz787 | the MIC6 from mcmaster is pretty expensive, on par with the thorlabs tapped plates | 22:29 |
| nmz787 | fenn kanzure: the laser tube itself is 0.7 meters long | 22:30 |
| -!- ybit is now known as fiddlybits | 22:30 | |
| nmz787 | so if we wanted it inline with the gantry, we'd need a meter long plate | 22:30 |
| -!- fiddlybits is now known as ybit | 22:31 | |
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| kanzure | "The rise and fall of Celera as an ambitious competitor of the Human Genome Project is the main subject of the book The Genome War by James Shreeve, who followed Venter around for two years in the process of writing the book. A view from the public effort's side is that of Nobel laureate Sir John Sulston in his book The Common Thread: A Story of Science, Politics, Ethics and the Human Genome." | 22:40 |
| kanzure | wait.. when did quest acquire celera? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quest_Diagnostics | 22:42 |
| katsmeow-afk | hmm, and wikipedia stopped using https | 22:48 |
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| ybit | katsmeow-afk?.. seems to be using it still.. | 22:50 |
| katsmeow-afk | [00:42] <kanzure> wait.. when did quest acquire celera? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quest_Diagnostics <<== plainly NOt https | 22:50 |
| ybit | throw in an s and it will work | 22:51 |
| ybit | https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Test e.g. | 22:51 |
| katsmeow-afk | the last month all the wikipedia links i saw were https | 22:51 |
| katsmeow-afk | not "does https work" or not, but allthe links were https | 22:52 |
| ybit | maybe someone was using the https everywhere plugin | 22:52 |
| katsmeow-afk | why wouldi care what someone was doing? i aren't | 22:52 |
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| Stee| | hey kanzure, you up? | 23:00 |
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| * ybit is too timid to make a joke with fenn patrolling the channel | 23:20 | |
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| --- Log closed Wed Apr 11 00:00:30 2012 | ||
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