| --- Log opened Fri Apr 13 00:00:33 2012 | ||
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| kanzure | lichen: thx | 00:11 |
|---|---|---|
| lichen | hmm? | 00:12 |
| kanzure | the call | 00:12 |
| kanzure | i am lagging | 00:12 |
| lichen | oh, np | 00:12 |
| lichen | thanks for the help on my job hunt | 00:12 |
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| strangewarp | Hmmm. Seeing some intellectuals making anti-singularity arguments based on a rejection of the New Aesthetic's tendency to anthropomorphize machine vision.. | 04:51 |
| strangewarp | silly | 04:52 |
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| nmz7871 | hey | 05:05 |
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| dbolser | hi | 05:31 |
| gedankenstuecke | hey dbolser :) | 05:48 |
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| kanzure | dbolser: yo | 06:10 |
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| kanzure | "The nice bit about this arrangement is that it indeed more or less works as a CUPS printer on the network (you have to do a little more than just install the proper CUPS driver on your computer to get it to work). But after you got the driver to work, you can lasercut from any vector software. We usually use Inkscape for that purpose." | 07:10 |
| kanzure | http://www.laoslaser.org/ | 07:10 |
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| kanzure | chris_99: hi | 07:10 |
| chris_99 | hola kanzure | 07:10 |
| kanzure | "The laser tube is warranted for nine months, and it can used around 9000hours For the 80w laser tube cost of replacement is USD403 (EXW price) (for this laser tube the biggest power can arrive 95w)" | 07:12 |
| kanzure | http://reprap.org/wiki/Lemon_Curry | 07:32 |
| kanzure | hrm what? "since DIY for polymers is not realistic due to various governmental restrictions on purchase and shipments of some raw materials" | 07:32 |
| kanzure | what "Cure rates will be possible under 0.2 seconds per layer or slice" | 07:32 |
| kanzure | "This will allow for build rates over 1 inch per minute." | 07:33 |
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| katsmeow-afk | sorta off topic, but not, i wonder what happens if you build a UV-cureable polymer device, and then use it indefinately outside in sunlight, will it be UV damaged? | 07:35 |
| kanzure | presumably after curing it can't cure more ? | 07:36 |
| katsmeow-afk | but can it be broken apart? | 07:36 |
| kanzure | presumably not with UV | 07:37 |
| katsmeow-afk | or, can it form additional bonds, and warp? | 07:37 |
| katsmeow-afk | once cured, do they outgas, or can they be USDA approved for food contact? | 07:38 |
| katsmeow-afk | it's not outlandish set of questions, someone may want to print all or part of a pizza maker for use in sports tailgate parties | 07:39 |
| kanzure | katsmeow-afk: how's your knowledge of lenses and beam focusing | 07:42 |
| katsmeow-afk | not on par with most people's here | 07:44 |
| katsmeow-afk | played with telescopes, cameras, other oculars, not seriously, not professionally | 07:44 |
| katsmeow-afk | and atm, i have, i think, "a common cold", which is disconcerting, i seldom lower myself to anything "common", or "human" | 07:45 |
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| katsmeow-afk | that brings up anotehr interesting question tho: after a pass of a UV diode to cure a plane in the resin, the deck lowers, should the diode carrier be oriented to harden the next plane AND still be pointed at the previous plane, to avoid hardening a thicker plane than desired? What is the depth of cure of a pass? | 07:51 |
| katsmeow-afk | if your Z step is .1mm, won't you get significant errors if the UV cure depth is 1mm? | 07:52 |
| kanzure | there are people in #lemoncurry at the moment who could answer that question | 07:52 |
| * katsmeow-afk is too shy | 07:52 | |
| kanzure | also: this is nice. http://data.stackexchange.com/stackoverflow/query/6856/high-standards-top-100-users-that-rarely-upvote | 07:52 |
| katsmeow-afk | usa Pentagon orders dual focus eye-contact-lenses for eyeglass HUD http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-17692256 , "By wearing our contact lens you automatically have this multi-focus, or dual-focus, and you are doing something that humans don't usually do." | 08:02 |
| kanzure | oh it looks like bluray lasers are already focused to a <500 nm spot size | 08:04 |
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| delinquentme | has y comb released a list of companies they're sponsoring this round? | 08:17 |
| kanzure | look at the demo day schedule | 08:19 |
| kanzure | spot size calculator http://buildlog.net/cnc_laser/laser_calcs.htm | 08:22 |
| delinquentme | im not seeing the link | 08:26 |
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| delinquentme | kanzure, im ready when you are | 08:57 |
| kanzure | delinquentme: yep ok | 09:03 |
| delinquentme | fire when ready | 09:03 |
| delinquentme | is this you? | 09:04 |
| delinquentme | 3000? | 09:04 |
| delinquentme | kanzure, | 09:04 |
| kanzure | sigh | 09:04 |
| delinquentme | what are we 3waying or something? | 09:04 |
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| kanzure | nmz787: http://buildlog.net/cnc_laser/laser_calcs.htm | 09:12 |
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| nmz787 | basic calculations | 09:17 |
| nmz787 | nice to see it GUiized | 09:17 |
| kanzure | and spot size calculation | 09:17 |
| nmz787 | so Simon says to try a blu-ray device first, due to the close working distance the lens may foul (i.e. get coated in smoke, or something like that), but said he thinks it will be fine | 09:19 |
| nmz787 | he says if it does get messed up, then we can try a harder method | 09:19 |
| nmz787 | (which I guess he doesn't want to waste time speculating on) | 09:20 |
| kanzure | bluray isn't going to cut glass | 09:22 |
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| kanzure | 450 mW? | 09:22 |
| Urchin | ls | 09:23 |
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| Urchin | away | 09:23 |
| Urchin | hi | 09:23 |
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| nmz787 | kanzure: the 12X bluray drives have a 700mW 405nm diode | 09:26 |
| kanzure | but 700 mW isn't going to cut glass either? | 09:27 |
| nmz787 | do we need to cut glass? | 09:27 |
| nmz787 | i'm not sure CO2 can do that | 09:27 |
| kanzure | delinquentme: office of technology commercialization. look it up.. | 09:28 |
| delinquentme | The OTD team is an agile group of experienced professionals with diversified foundation in science, business development, intellectual property and contract law. | 09:29 |
| delinquentme | sho nuff | 09:29 |
| nmz787 | epilog says their co2 laser etches glass, doesn't mention using some special chemical or anythin | 09:30 |
| kanzure | haha wow look at the google results | 09:30 |
| kanzure | https://www.google.com/search?q=office+of+technology+commercialization | 09:30 |
| nmz787 | also doesn't mention power rating | 09:30 |
| kanzure | each university. same departmet name. | 09:30 |
| kanzure | *department | 09:30 |
| nmz787 | wiki only mentions glass cutting with a laser by crack propagation | 09:32 |
| kanzure | huh. | 09:33 |
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| delinquentme | kanzure, ima put in a text file | 09:43 |
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| kanzure | delinquentme: a text file sounds fine to me.. | 09:50 |
| delinquentme | yeah im putting off refactoring till all are done though | 09:51 |
| delinquentme | maybe a little here or there to get them to fit IDK | 09:52 |
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| delinquentme | kanzure, stop messing around w the readme | 10:43 |
| delinquentme | NO seriously i wont touch it anymore | 10:43 |
| kanzure | i haven't touched it in like 12 hours | 10:46 |
| kanzure | you got the wrong guy i'm innocent | 10:46 |
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| delinquentme | haha its all up there and i fucked w it a bit | 10:48 |
| delinquentme | doing umm... typography things with it | 10:48 |
| kanzure | SLFe ? | 10:48 |
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| delinquentme | hahah i was a little worried about that its suposed to be a merger like this: F| | 10:50 |
| delinquentme | so the F and the | make an A | 10:50 |
| delinquentme | and then motion trails to make it sufficiently obscure | 10:50 |
| delinquentme | you know like the readme from phrozen crew | 10:50 |
| kanzure | i don't even know what the A is | 10:50 |
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| delinquentme | well the F and the A are combined | 10:52 |
| delinquentme | the F stands alone but with the bar / shwoosies added | 10:53 |
| delinquentme | it stands as an A | 10:53 |
| delinquentme | LOLOL dont worry about it | 10:53 |
| delinquentme | if its awful u can remove it | 10:53 |
| kanzure | science liberation front a... | 10:53 |
| delinquentme | ohh arsenal? | 10:53 |
| delinquentme | wasnt that u? | 10:53 |
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| kanzure | why arsenal? | 10:53 |
| kanzure | nope | 10:53 |
| delinquentme | oh thats the name of the repo | 10:54 |
| kanzure | hmm | 10:54 |
| delinquentme | ill simplfy later | 10:54 |
| delinquentme | it might "read" a little easier | 10:54 |
| kanzure | maybe it shouldbe renamed to libyan's revolutionary science liberation front rage against the publisher (after SURFRAW) | 10:55 |
| delinquentme | lolol what wait ... googles | 10:55 |
| delinquentme | LOL this is assanges project? | 10:56 |
| delinquentme | Oh Baybee | 10:56 |
| delinquentme | I need some | 10:56 |
| delinquentme | Deep Linking | 10:56 |
| delinquentme | Let us go | 10:56 |
| delinquentme | Surfin' in the raw! | 10:56 |
| delinquentme | ROFL | 10:56 |
| delinquentme | i'd be down for that | 10:56 |
| delinquentme | giving assange a cameo | 10:56 |
| delinquentme | http://www.liebertpub.com/overview/disruptive-science-and-technology/594/ | 11:13 |
| delinquentme | KANZ | 11:14 |
| kanzure | what? | 11:14 |
| delinquentme | i know you've got NDAs around | 11:15 |
| delinquentme | non disclosue agreement | 11:15 |
| kanzure | "Editor Aubrey D.N.J. de Grey" | 11:18 |
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| delinquentme | whut? | 11:22 |
| kanzure | aubrey is the editor of that journal you linked to | 11:26 |
| delinquentme | wtffff | 11:27 |
| delinquentme | editor in chief | 11:28 |
| delinquentme | executive editor | 11:28 |
| delinquentme | ummmm | 11:28 |
| delinquentme | i like titles. | 11:28 |
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| kanzure | delinquentme: Supreme Editor for Life | 11:36 |
| kanzure | Eternal Glorious Editor | 11:36 |
| Mariu | :p | 11:37 |
| delinquentme | "exhaulted" | 11:37 |
| delinquentme | "on high" | 11:37 |
| delinquentme | " I put the jesus in journals" | 11:38 |
| delinquentme | after the burial | 11:40 |
| delinquentme | damn they're fucking good w the poly | 11:40 |
| delinquentme | Just brewed some McStrongAssCoffee | 11:41 |
| delinquentme | I'd invite you over Mariu but im unsure if you're a killer cyborg | 11:41 |
| delinquentme | so its been claimed that theres tons of overlap between metal and classical | 11:42 |
| delinquentme | and I love when I head it bc its like "holy shit thats pedal-point" and its gnast | 11:43 |
| Mariu | lol delinquentme | 11:46 |
| Mariu | I don't like coffee :o | 11:46 |
| Mariu | and they cyborg idea is pretty cool | 11:47 |
| Mariu | except killer | 11:47 |
| Mariu | *the | 11:47 |
| delinquentme | you're the only tea drinking cyborg i know | 11:47 |
| delinquentme | lol | 11:47 |
| Mariu | LOL | 11:47 |
| Mariu | yeah, I'm down with tea | 11:47 |
| delinquentme | DEAL | 11:52 |
| Mariu | xD | 11:54 |
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| kanzure | delinquentme: your general level of awesome is definitely exceeding 9000 | 12:37 |
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| Mariu | lol | 12:38 |
| delinquentme | =] | 12:39 |
| delinquentme | a few of those were skipped btu for the most part theres a serious ammoutn of code there | 12:40 |
| kanzure | delinquentme: gotta code to the right music for full power.. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C8dikRgmTAM | 12:48 |
| delinquentme | haha i can dig | 12:49 |
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| delinquentme | kanzure, | 13:09 |
| delinquentme | loi/edfp , loi/edd , loi/easddd | 13:10 |
| kanzure | ? | 13:10 |
| delinquentme | how would you validate a format like that | 13:10 |
| kanzure | mystring[0,4] == "loi/" | 13:10 |
| delinquentme | i want something more solid than "loi/edfp".split('/').count ==2 | 13:10 |
| kanzure | mystring.include? "loi/" | 13:11 |
| delinquentme | the loi will work | 13:12 |
| kanzure | mystring[0,3] == "loi/" && mystring.length > 3 | 13:12 |
| delinquentme | any idea offhand which is faster .. a split operation or the string[0..5] | 13:12 |
| kanzure | i meant 0,3 not 0,4 | 13:12 |
| _Sketch_ | http://www.chris-granger.com/2012/04/12/light-table---a-new-ide-concept/ | 13:12 |
| kanzure | ohhh fluidigm | 13:13 |
| kanzure | i thought it was fluidagem | 13:13 |
| _Sketch_ | Shows code executing with arbitrary values, and documentation, alongside your code. | 13:13 |
| kanzure | but it's more like.. paradigm | 13:13 |
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| delinquentme | _Sketch_, i like it | 13:16 |
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| delinquentme | kanzure, one of the first things we need to address is that im getting a number of false negatives for the checking | 13:40 |
| delinquentme | specifically the index 2008..2012 checking in skraper_addons.rb | 13:40 |
| kanzure | describe the problem more | 13:41 |
| delinquentme | it searches the page given as the index page | 13:43 |
| delinquentme | and the presumption I based it off of was that if it was an index page ... that somewhere on the page you'd be able to locate the strings 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 | 13:44 |
| delinquentme | but some journals were only started last year .. so they'd only have 20112 | 13:44 |
| delinquentme | basically "how do we check that this is the page for this journal which lists all the back issues" | 13:45 |
| delinquentme | what i refer to as the journal "index" | 13:45 |
| kanzure | uhh | 13:48 |
| kanzure | why not just look yourself? | 13:48 |
| kanzure | for instance, certain sites will have a certain url structure for their journal backissue index | 13:50 |
| kanzure | or you can find the journal backissue from a certain link | 13:50 |
| kanzure | *from a certain link on a previous page | 13:50 |
| delinquentme | http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HuC6q9kbryw&feature=context&context=G2477c15RVAAAAAAAAAA | 13:50 |
| delinquentme | cute! | 13:50 |
| delinquentme | im trying to minimize the human factor in it :D | 13:50 |
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| kanzure | hi kommienzuspadt | 13:52 |
| kommienzuspadt | sup | 13:52 |
| kanzure | who are you? | 13:52 |
| kommienzuspadt | I got invited into here by uhh | 13:52 |
| kommienzuspadt | genisteel | 13:52 |
| kommienzuspadt | he's a SA goon | 13:52 |
| kommienzuspadt | that linked me to this place | 13:52 |
| kommienzuspadt | im a biologist | 13:52 |
| kommienzuspadt | molecular/cell | 13:52 |
| kommienzuspadt | i work in biomed | 13:52 |
| kanzure | commercial? | 13:52 |
| kommienzuspadt | nah public research | 13:52 |
| kommienzuspadt | well publically funded | 13:52 |
| kommienzuspadt | large university etc | 13:53 |
| kanzure | welcome i guess | 13:53 |
| kommienzuspadt | i heard something about transfecting duckweed? | 13:53 |
| kommienzuspadt | w/ plasmids?? | 13:53 |
| kanzure | that's diginet's fault | 13:53 |
| kanzure | diginet: ping | 13:53 |
| kommienzuspadt | i want to know more about his procedure because i am skeptical | 13:53 |
| kommienzuspadt | i know 0 about transfecting plants | 13:53 |
| kommienzuspadt | only cell cultures | 13:53 |
| kanzure | agrobacterium is my method of choice but he seems to want to do something else | 13:54 |
| kommienzuspadt | yeah i mean i dunno how you really transfect non-bacterial vector organisms | 13:54 |
| kommienzuspadt | I mean i know you can transfect mammalian cell culures with AAV | 13:54 |
| kanzure | in non-plant non-bacterial organisms you can do microinjection and electroporation and gene guns | 13:54 |
| kommienzuspadt | yeah but not w/ plasmids | 13:55 |
| kommienzuspadt | plasmids are bacterial only | 13:55 |
| kommienzuspadt | i've used retroviruses to transfect mammalian cell line sbefore | 13:55 |
| kommienzuspadt | but with limited success | 13:55 |
| kommienzuspadt | its pretty hard to engineer a properly working mammalian cell line | 13:56 |
| kommienzuspadt | well, with a mutation of your choice, that is | 13:56 |
| delinquentme | kommienzuspadt, tranfect non-bacterial vectors? | 13:58 |
| delinquentme | the cell gun! | 13:58 |
| kommienzuspadt | i've never used one. have you? | 13:58 |
| delinquentme | apparently its a rigged airsoft | 13:58 |
| delinquentme | *shrug* | 13:58 |
| kommienzuspadt | I always thought those were pie in the sky one just one-off prototype type stuff | 13:58 |
| kommienzuspadt | pretty much every lab i've worked with has used viruses to do their genetic engineering in mammalian cells | 13:59 |
| delinquentme | umm so you load up the vectors onto gold of some mass | 13:59 |
| delinquentme | and shot gun them into a number of cells | 13:59 |
| kanzure | kommienzuspadt: btw we're not at peak biology at the moment so give it a few minutes to pick up in the channel. | 13:59 |
| kommienzuspadt | K | 13:59 |
| kommienzuspadt | delinquentme: I know how the principle works | 14:00 |
| delinquentme | are you summoning people kanz | 14:00 |
| kommienzuspadt | but does it actually see common use | 14:00 |
| kanzure | delinquentme: no | 14:00 |
| diginet | WHAT ABOUT ME!?!?! | 14:07 |
| diginet | oh hi kommienzuspadt | 14:08 |
| kommienzuspadt | sup | 14:08 |
| kommienzuspadt | tell me about this thing with duckweed? | 14:08 |
| kommienzuspadt | how do you transfect a plant? | 14:08 |
| kanzure | http://protocol-online.org/ | 14:08 |
| diginet | I haven't done it yet, I'm planning on trying to create transplasmonic duckweed with biolistics | 14:08 |
| kanzure | also: | 14:08 |
| kanzure | we have an alternative version of protocol-online.org being created | 14:08 |
| kanzure | but that guy is offline at the moment | 14:08 |
| delinquentme | ohhh sweet thats the technical name for it | 14:09 |
| diginet | biolistics? | 14:09 |
| diginet | yeah I think so | 14:09 |
| delinquentme | yeah | 14:09 |
| kommienzuspadt | wait wait | 14:09 |
| diginet | it's kind of silly | 14:09 |
| delinquentme | "gene gun" | 14:09 |
| diginet | ? | 14:09 |
| kommienzuspadt | biolistics? | 14:09 |
| kommienzuspadt | ahh | 14:09 |
| kommienzuspadt | google reveals all | 14:09 |
| delinquentme | https://www.google.com/search?ix=sea&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8&q=biolistics | 14:09 |
| delinquentme | =] | 14:09 |
| diginet | gene guns, you coat tiny metal particles with DNA, shoot it in | 14:09 |
| kommienzuspadt | yeah so, im still pretty new in biomed | 14:09 |
| diginet | are you a PhD? | 14:09 |
| kommienzuspadt | Student | 14:09 |
| diginet | PhD student? or undergrad student? | 14:10 |
| kommienzuspadt | right now i work in a lab that is heavy in cell motility | 14:10 |
| kommienzuspadt | BS/MS combo | 14:10 |
| diginet | sweet | 14:10 |
| diginet | well, welcome | 14:10 |
| kommienzuspadt | danke | 14:10 |
| kommienzuspadt | so i've done lots of bacterial transfection | 14:10 |
| kommienzuspadt | pretty simple | 14:10 |
| diginet | yep | 14:10 |
| diginet | plant transfection isn't so much | 14:10 |
| kommienzuspadt | and Im familiar with CaPO4 DNA transfection | 14:10 |
| kommienzuspadt | in mammalian cells | 14:11 |
| kommienzuspadt | and i know that a sister lab to the one I used to work for out west | 14:11 |
| kommienzuspadt | used AAV to introduce specific genes into their HEK293 cells | 14:11 |
| diginet | and even worse, I'm trying to transfect the chroloplast genome, instead of the nuclear genome ("plastome") | 14:11 |
| kommienzuspadt | but I know nothing about gene guns... | 14:11 |
| kommienzuspadt | Weird | 14:11 |
| kommienzuspadt | yeah | 14:11 |
| kommienzuspadt | so tell me about it | 14:11 |
| kommienzuspadt | b/c i havent thought about plants since like intro bio | 14:11 |
| diginet | me either, I'm trying to tackle a DIY gene gun | 14:11 |
| kommienzuspadt | that might be quite a tall order... | 14:12 |
| _F7_ | I can help with gene gun DIY | 14:12 |
| diginet | first a caveat: I'm just an undergrad, and not even a bio major, my "specialty" is physics, this is a hobby for me, but a more accessible one than building a particle accelerator | 14:12 |
| kommienzuspadt | haha | 14:12 |
| kommienzuspadt | certainly true | 14:12 |
| diginet | _F7_, you're the same as F71 one right? and yeah, thanks :) | 14:12 |
| _F7_ | Yep, also, no problem. | 14:12 |
| kommienzuspadt | so | 14:13 |
| _F7_ | On the easy end, I've got an old BB gun I can saw off | 14:13 |
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| _F7_ | but that's probably crap | 14:13 |
| kommienzuspadt | how | 14:13 |
| kommienzuspadt | like | 14:13 |
| kommienzuspadt | i don't even know where to begin I guess. How are you going to get it to work? | 14:13 |
| diginet | cool, well, anyway altering the chroloplast genome isn't really harder than the nuclear genome, the hard part is getting all the chrloroplasts to have the same modified DNA | 14:13 |
| diginet | just read research | 14:13 |
| diginet | the priciple of operation is rather simple | 14:13 |
| kommienzuspadt | like so first of all | 14:13 |
| diginet | they original built it with a gun barrel (literally) | 14:13 |
| _F7_ | can the chloroplast take vaccuum? | 14:13 |
| kommienzuspadt | where aer you getting your vector | 14:13 |
| _F7_ | oh wait | 14:14 |
| diginet | I'm going to have to make it | 14:14 |
| kommienzuspadt | out of...? | 14:14 |
| _F7_ | why aren't you transforming like, pollen? | 14:14 |
| kommienzuspadt | will it be plasmid? SS DNA? | 14:14 |
| diginet | just pay to have it sequenced | 14:14 |
| kommienzuspadt | no but I mean, you need a physical construct to hold your mutant of interest | 14:14 |
| diginet | oh | 14:14 |
| kommienzuspadt | like to transfect e. coli you have circular plasmid DNA | 14:14 |
| diginet | biolistics uses no vector | 14:14 |
| _F7_ | oh wait, duckweed is a budding plant isn't it | 14:14 |
| diginet | _F7_, yeah exactly | 14:14 |
| diginet | which is the good thing about it | 14:14 |
| diginet | it can flower, but the mechanism is poorly understood, and why bother with that anyway | 14:15 |
| diginet | you just shoot a little particle coated with DNA into the cell | 14:15 |
| diginet | and it transforms it via homologous transformation | 14:15 |
| diginet | generally use E.Coli to clone the DNA though | 14:16 |
| kommienzuspadt | Yeah e. coli is wicked east | 14:16 |
| kommienzuspadt | easy | 14:16 |
| diginet | anyhow, the reason for transforming the plastids are that they offer like 100-fold increases in expression over the nuclear genome | 14:16 |
| diginet | the general procedure for homologizing the plastomes though is to make the cell go through dedifferentation on a lot of cells (which causes the plastid number to decrease) and then reverse, untill all your plastids are the one you want | 14:17 |
| diginet | you just have to use an antibiotic resistance marker, and select very stringently for it, by continually increasing hte concentration | 14:18 |
| diginet | (you can roughly calculate the homology by how much of the antibiotic the cell can survive) | 14:18 |
| kommienzuspadt | how do you cause the plant t odedifferentiate? | 14:18 |
| kommienzuspadt | using transcription factors? | 14:19 |
| kommienzuspadt | like Sox etc | 14:19 |
| kanzure | i don't think sox is a thing in plants? | 14:19 |
| kommienzuspadt | and how d oyou select for the ones you want | 14:19 |
| kommienzuspadt | Yeah I mean, its homolog | 14:19 |
| kommienzuspadt | or whatever, again, i know less about plants than Martha Stewart probably | 14:19 |
| diginet | kommienzuspadt, I don't rememeber exactly, but there definitely is a way | 14:19 |
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| kommienzuspadt | you'll also have to select for the cells that are succesfully transfected | 14:19 |
| diginet | yeah | 14:20 |
| diginet | but anyway, one that's the case, hooray, because duckweed is very easy to grow | 14:20 |
| diginet | I calculated, I could roughly express 1kg of protein a day, assuming average expression rates, and optimal growth just on the area I have to work with | 14:21 |
| yashgaroth | same kommienzuspadt as on SA? | 14:21 |
| kommienzuspadt | Yessir | 14:21 |
| yashgaroth | aha | 14:21 |
| kanzure | in general please send me more goons and less redditors kthx | 14:21 |
| kommienzuspadt | diginet: how are you going to induce expression | 14:21 |
| delinquentme | what is SA? | 14:21 |
| kommienzuspadt | again I know nothing about plants | 14:21 |
| kanzure | it's something awful | 14:21 |
| kommienzuspadt | I know in e. coli you need the proper media | 14:22 |
| kommienzuspadt | and usually you induce it with uh | 14:22 |
| kommienzuspadt | Fuck | 14:22 |
| yashgaroth | (specifically, the somethingawful forums) | 14:22 |
| kommienzuspadt | four letter acronym | 14:22 |
| kommienzuspadt | chemical | 14:22 |
| kommienzuspadt | fuck | 14:22 |
| kommienzuspadt | DPTG? | 14:22 |
| yashgaroth | IPTG | 14:22 |
| Mariu | GoonSwarm | 14:22 |
| kommienzuspadt | thank you | 14:22 |
| diginet | kommienzuspadt, you just grow the duckweed plant | 14:22 |
| diginet | nothing to it | 14:22 |
| kommienzuspadt | yeah but how can you be sure that specific gene is being expressed? | 14:22 |
| diginet | use a good promotor (cauliflower mosaic virus) | 14:22 |
| kommienzuspadt | ok | 14:23 |
| kommienzuspadt | thats what i was wondering | 14:23 |
| diginet | *promoter | 14:23 |
| kommienzuspadt | is that an exogenous promotor? | 14:23 |
| kommienzuspadt | the cauliflower virus will reliably put it where you want it on your plastome? | 14:23 |
| diginet | yes | 14:23 |
| kommienzuspadt | how do you know which of your plants will be successfully transduced with the virus? | 14:23 |
| diginet | use a selective marker | 14:23 |
| diginet | no, I'm not using a virus | 14:24 |
| diginet | I'm just using the promoter from one | 14:24 |
| diginet | I use homologous transformation to get the the plastome to take it in | 14:24 |
| diginet | which admitteddly, isn't a deterministic process, but doesn't require a vector, so its easier | 14:24 |
| kommienzuspadt | yeah, i mean i guess that's my point- what is the proess for selecting for properly transfected cells | 14:25 |
| kommienzuspadt | versus ones that are not? | 14:25 |
| diginet | antiobiotic resistance | 14:25 |
| kommienzuspadt | ok, just like bugs | 14:25 |
| diginet | yep | 14:25 |
| diginet | you transfect callus culture cells (which are like plant stem cells) | 14:25 |
| diginet | brb, going to read some stuff | 14:26 |
| kommienzuspadt | k | 14:28 |
| delinquentme | kanzure, | 14:30 |
| delinquentme | 4 words | 14:30 |
| kanzure | 4 of them? | 14:30 |
| delinquentme | hand coded russian HTML | 14:30 |
| delinquentme | yes. | 14:30 |
| kanzure | nice | 14:30 |
| delinquentme | it happens | 14:30 |
| kanzure | oh we should probably look up foreign language academic publishers | 14:30 |
| delinquentme | we should talk about what the goals are | 14:31 |
| kanzure | does the README make sense | 14:31 |
| delinquentme | like im venturing a guess but the majority of the good research will be in mandarin, english, russian, french, spanish maybe german | 14:32 |
| delinquentme | idk | 14:32 |
| delinquentme | yeah the readme is good | 14:32 |
| kanzure | ok someone will be doing the mongodb integration tonight | 14:32 |
| kanzure | (not me) | 14:33 |
| yashgaroth | most good research gets published in english, or at least also-published | 14:33 |
| kanzure | what about all the chinese publishers | 14:33 |
| kanzure | who publishes the chinese research anyway? | 14:33 |
| kanzure | yashgaroth: we need help assembling a complete list of academic publishers | 14:34 |
| kanzure | delinquentme: can you patebin the list? | 14:34 |
| kanzure | pastebin | 14:34 |
| delinquentme | what list | 14:34 |
| kanzure | of publishers | 14:34 |
| kanzure | that we are aiming for. | 14:34 |
| yashgaroth | make sure you get bentham, those guys are terrible at open access | 14:34 |
| kanzure | yashgaroth: we have 79+ at the moment | 14:35 |
| yashgaroth | oh my | 14:35 |
| kanzure | mess with the best, die like the rest..... or something | 14:35 |
| delinquentme | https://github.com/meawoppl/SLFA/blob/master/scrapers/ruby/journals_complete_list.txt | 14:35 |
| delinquentme | thatll be the most up to date | 14:35 |
| delinquentme | should prob be relocated too | 14:35 |
| kanzure | ok let me pastebin that | 14:35 |
| yashgaroth | 404? | 14:36 |
| delinquentme | yashgaroth, can you program ruby | 14:36 |
| kanzure | http://pastebin.com/01EWDJt6 | 14:36 |
| yashgaroth | hahahahaha no | 14:36 |
| kanzure | wait this is only 71? | 14:36 |
| kanzure | is this the list of the ones we've done, or the list of ones we haven't done | 14:36 |
| kanzure | oh, complete | 14:36 |
| kanzure | blah | 14:36 |
| kanzure | yashgaroth: can you figure out what publishers we're missing? | 14:36 |
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| yashgaroth | you've got all the big ones that I can remember | 14:37 |
| kanzure | what about russian/chinese publishers | 14:37 |
| yashgaroth | never read any that I can recall | 14:38 |
| yashgaroth | oh add PNAS | 14:44 |
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| Guanny | Sup | 15:03 |
| kanzure | hello Guanny | 15:06 |
| kanzure | are you eric zhang | 15:07 |
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| diginet | Elsevier is scum, seriously someone needs to stop them | 15:13 |
| Guanny | Yes fuck the fudge packing counts | 15:15 |
| Guanny | Cunts * | 15:16 |
| katsmeow-afk | <blink> | 15:16 |
| diginet | I think the solution is simple: a huge percentage of research is funded by public money. In essence, we, the taxpayers, are paying for it. Any research funded by public money should be legally required to be open access. | 15:17 |
| kanzure | preaching to the choir.. | 15:17 |
| diginet | Oh I know | 15:17 |
| Guanny | I just wanted to get odds when off campus but they make it impossible short of using a vpn | 15:17 |
| diginet | it just really, ugh | 15:17 |
| diginet | makes me sick | 15:17 |
| diginet | hasn't harvard and MIT enacted open access only policies? | 15:18 |
| Guanny | y'all want odds? I'll hook u up | 15:18 |
| kanzure | Guanny: we are the science liberation front | 15:18 |
| kanzure | Guanny: so far we have 80+ scrapers and are aiming for a 100% copy of science | 15:18 |
| diginet | kanzure, how do you avoid detection? I was shutdown through my access just for legitimate downloading because I went "over the limit?" | 15:19 |
| kanzure | by going below the limits | 15:19 |
| diginet | but isn't that painfully slow? | 15:19 |
| kanzure | also, http://google.com/search?q=ezproxy+inurl:edu | 15:19 |
| katsmeow-afk | timing, tor, multiple proxies | 15:19 |
| kanzure | no not tor really | 15:19 |
| kanzure | also: all those fart apps taht you download? | 15:20 |
| kanzure | those have http proxies that phone home | 15:20 |
| diginet | ? | 15:20 |
| katsmeow-afk | tor doesn't want you to be able to change exit nodes, but you can | 15:20 |
| kanzure | diginet: you just need an exit proxy inside a university campus | 15:20 |
| diginet | AHHHHHH | 15:20 |
| diginet | okay, so you guys have friends who set up proxies on Uni networks? | 15:20 |
| kanzure | no | 15:20 |
| katsmeow-afk | no | 15:20 |
| kanzure | the proxies are already installed | 15:20 |
| kanzure | look at ezproxy | 15:20 |
| kanzure | every college campus has this | 15:21 |
| diginet | don't you need specific accounts | 15:21 |
| kanzure | yes, look it up- people post usernames/passwords | 15:21 |
| diginet | where? | 15:21 |
| kanzure | all sorts of places | 15:21 |
| kanzure | http://passworduid.blogspot.com/ | 15:21 |
| Guanny | Sweet for scraping | 15:21 |
| diginet | god damn, when you let loose the the floodgates, those publishers will be SCREWED | 15:22 |
| kanzure | diginet: yes | 15:22 |
| kanzure | but only if you do it all at once | 15:22 |
| diginet | indeed | 15:22 |
| delinquentme | thats beautiful http://passworduid.blogspot.com/ | 15:22 |
| kanzure | delinquentme: that's an old one | 15:23 |
| kanzure | use google.cn | 15:23 |
| delinquentme | lol nice | 15:23 |
| delinquentme | Oh so i was musing | 15:23 |
| delinquentme | if you've got shit centere in china | 15:23 |
| delinquentme | that might as well be copyleft insurance right? | 15:23 |
| delinquentme | like they straight up told BMW that the X5 wasn't ripped off | 15:24 |
| kanzure | yeah, china might be interested in acquiring this data set | 15:24 |
| delinquentme | " yea we exited " | 15:25 |
| delinquentme | "who bought it?" | 15:26 |
| delinquentme | "China" | 15:26 |
| delinquentme | kanzure, do you program objective c? | 15:27 |
| kanzure | yes | 15:27 |
| delinquentme | isnt a web app part of the stuff you're working on | 15:27 |
| delinquentme | java? | 15:27 |
| kanzure | yes i also do java (: | 15:27 |
| kanzure | i meant to type :( | 15:27 |
| kanzure | delinquentme: elsevier makes something like $800 million/year | 15:28 |
| delinquentme | so the applications we need | 15:28 |
| delinquentme | absolutely minimal | 15:28 |
| kanzure | so china could never afford to pay all the publishers- it would add up to many billions of dollars | 15:28 |
| kanzure | they could pay billions but.. they wouldn't | 15:29 |
| delinquentme | and run in the background on phones | 15:29 |
| kanzure | yeah | 15:29 |
| kanzure | fart apps or something | 15:29 |
| delinquentme | lol | 15:29 |
| kanzure | so that when the app is checked, the sysadmin figures it's benign | 15:29 |
| delinquentme | ohhh | 15:29 |
| delinquentme | im saying get one of the reddit guys to read over the code and issue a statement that its safe | 15:29 |
| delinquentme | and just post that shit to some colleges | 15:30 |
| kanzure | no you don't need anyone to read it | 15:30 |
| delinquentme | to solved the "do we trust these guys to give phone access " | 15:30 |
| kanzure | i just mean a fart app so that if someone looks at the phone, it's not like "I AM RAPING KITTENS RIGHT NOW" | 15:30 |
| delinquentme | i thought the sys admin comment meant as far as the portion that hits the schools servers | 15:31 |
| kanzure | nothing hits the schools servers.. their network might be used if the student happens to be on campus | 15:31 |
| delinquentme | correct me if im wrong but most college students are sufficiently educated that they'd freely get behind this if we let them know whats happening | 15:31 |
| delinquentme | especially those in a science program | 15:31 |
| kanzure | yep | 15:31 |
| kanzure | but you still have to make the app seem benign so if someone looks at the app trying to blame the student.. | 15:31 |
| delinquentme | i also just realized that we'll be using their dataplan bandwidth | 15:32 |
| kanzure | no | 15:32 |
| kanzure | it's over wifi | 15:32 |
| kanzure | because you need the IP address from inside the school | 15:33 |
| kanzure | not their att/verizon ip address | 15:33 |
| delinquentme | ooc cant the app just be run in the background as something without an interface? | 15:33 |
| delinquentme | PS | 15:33 |
| delinquentme | getting app approval from apple will b e impossible | 15:33 |
| kanzure | nope.. they will approve fart apps | 15:35 |
| kanzure | or variations on fart apps | 15:35 |
| yashgaroth | don't they, like, check the source code? | 15:36 |
| kanzure | no | 15:36 |
| yashgaroth | oh | 15:36 |
| kanzure | you give them a compiled binary | 15:36 |
| kanzure | and they run the app and check off on guidelines | 15:36 |
| delinquentme | i cant help but think its not that simple | 15:37 |
| delinquentme | seriously | 15:37 |
| kanzure | that's how my apps got into the store before. | 15:37 |
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| kanzure | *shrug* ymmv | 15:37 |
| delinquentme | your apps also wern't silently transfering the shit we | 15:37 |
| delinquentme | 're talking | 15:37 |
| kanzure | actually, yes they were | 15:37 |
| kanzure | they were transferring analytics and videos and keylogging sometimes | 15:38 |
| delinquentme | damn | 15:38 |
| kanzure | it's not so bad | 15:38 |
| kanzure | and on android you can just distribute your .apk | 15:38 |
| delinquentme | theres no way that google doesnt have my bank information | 15:38 |
| kanzure | well, obviously we would never do this ourselves | 15:39 |
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| charlieschwabach | I think you could do a chrome app/extension that people could just install and leave open in computer labs | 15:53 |
| kanzure | yep.. i am interested in figuring out how to minimally abuse that | 15:54 |
| charlieschwabach | yeah, I am trying to think of a way to get around cross origin w/ js, but I don't think you can | 15:55 |
| charlieschwabach | if they could just have it open in a tab that would be ideal | 15:55 |
| kanzure | you can just launch the browser with cross-origin detection disabled :P | 15:55 |
| kanzure | at least on chrome it's something like --allow-cross-origin or something dumb | 15:56 |
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| kanzure | nmz787: yo | 15:58 |
| nmz787 | yo | 15:58 |
| kanzure | we've decided to whore out science to china | 15:58 |
| charlieschwabach | I didn't know that.. using a terminal will scare some % of people away which sucks, but still probably worth exploring | 15:58 |
| kanzure | and sell it to the chinese government for $600 million | 15:58 |
| charlieschwabach | especially if it is something people can run from dorms / just leave on overnight | 15:59 |
| kanzure | i think phones are way more common | 15:59 |
| nmz787 | hmm, interesting... we can make back some of the national deficit | 15:59 |
| kanzure | nmz787: no i mean, *us* personally | 15:59 |
| kanzure | da biggest heist | 16:00 |
| charlieschwabach | phones probably avoid detection by schools better too | 16:00 |
| kanzure | everyone in college has a smartphone | 16:00 |
| charlieschwabach | an app dowloading/uploading all of the time will kill battery | 16:00 |
| kanzure | yes, that's true | 16:00 |
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| charlieschwabach | which could annoy people | 16:00 |
| kanzure | there would deinitely be a rate limit | 16:00 |
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| kanzure | because if you full throttle everything, the publishers will notice | 16:01 |
| kanzure | and the network admins will notice | 16:01 |
| kanzure | and the batteries will notice.. | 16:01 |
| nmz787 | kanzure: remember that kurt guy, he's in china and was talking about grant, i mean whore, money | 16:01 |
| charlieschwabach | haha yep | 16:01 |
| kanzure | nmz787: toothpaste? | 16:01 |
| kanzure | i mean, fishpaste? | 16:01 |
| nmz787 | ya | 16:01 |
| nmz787 | lol | 16:01 |
| kanzure | i mean, something.. | 16:01 |
| nmz787 | good old pastywhite | 16:01 |
| delinquentme | cross origin? | 16:04 |
| delinquentme | XSS? | 16:04 |
| kanzure | yeah it gets in the way | 16:04 |
| kanzure | of a lot of app developmet | 16:04 |
| delinquentme | phones are more common | 16:04 |
| kanzure | *development | 16:04 |
| delinquentme | but they're also not as close to the source as browser extensions | 16:05 |
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| kanzure | delinquentme: they have browsers just like everything else | 16:05 |
| kanzure | also, you can do phonegap apps | 16:05 |
| kanzure | and write your app in javascript | 16:05 |
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| kanzure | yashgaroth: you around? | 16:05 |
| yashgaroth | well enough | 16:05 |
| kanzure | someone might be showing up to bug you for a myostatin project update | 16:06 |
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| yashgaroth | fiiine | 16:06 |
| delinquentme | hot website http://www.maik.ru/ | 16:07 |
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| kanzure | phill: welcome to a little transhumanist piece of heaven | 16:10 |
| kanzure | ... sort of | 16:11 |
| phill | okay. | 16:11 |
| kanzure | http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/myostatin/ | 16:12 |
| kanzure | yashgaroth: i should dump your proposal in there | 16:12 |
| yashgaroth | go for it | 16:12 |
| kanzure | do you have a recent version | 16:12 |
| yashgaroth | I've been adding more exposition based on comments, but it's not as readable as the original yet | 16:12 |
| kanzure | dis? https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/diybio/EbPPQaeKRg0 | 16:14 |
| yashgaroth | ya | 16:14 |
| kanzure | http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/myostatin/yashgaroth-proposal.txt | 16:14 |
| phill | well, I ought to read that first. | 16:15 |
| phill | on general principles, I'd rather destroy myostatin RNA transcripts than attack the protein after it's already been built | 16:16 |
| phill | I'd rather avoid an approach that requires a lot of continual churning anabolism & catabolism | 16:16 |
| phill | like eg increasing IGF | 16:16 |
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| yashgaroth | I've thought about adding an RNAi transcript into an intron with the follistatin mRNA | 16:17 |
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| phill | if you just have an RNAi transcript, you should get more copies into cells; you can use a very small plasmid | 16:17 |
| yashgaroth | maybe a kilobase shorter | 16:18 |
| yashgaroth | all the regulatory and origin stuff is most of the bulk either way | 16:18 |
| yashgaroth | also, intracellular regulation doesn't extend to nearby non-transfected fibers, which may be an issue | 16:19 |
| phill | another concern is, whatever method you're using to get dna into cells, how do you avoid some cells getting no copies while other cells get a lethally high number of copies? | 16:19 |
| phill | (probably less of an issue with muscle than with other tissue) | 16:19 |
| yashgaroth | you mean lethality from the transfection or the gene product? | 16:19 |
| phill | I'm more worried about over-using the siRNA machinery. | 16:20 |
| phill | adding hairpins to a cell reduces its ability to express its native miRNA | 16:20 |
| phill | apparently they are already near max capacity | 16:21 |
| yashgaroth | wouldn't surprise me | 16:21 |
| yashgaroth | no one's really looked into siRNA network knockdown as a whole, especially in muscle | 16:22 |
| yashgaroth | that's why I like gene products | 16:22 |
| phill | are you planning on using a promoter not active in heart cells? | 16:24 |
| phill | I'm worried about heart muscle. | 16:24 |
| yashgaroth | no, I don't expect the plasmid to reach the heart in any significant fashion | 16:24 |
| phill | why is that? | 16:24 |
| yashgaroth | without direct electroporation, the efficiency is rather low | 16:24 |
| yashgaroth | so almost all of it should be localized to the injection/electroporation site | 16:24 |
| nmz787 | NERD POWER! | 16:24 |
| nmz787 | :D | 16:24 |
| phill | supposedly, muscle cells are capable of taking up naked DNA | 16:24 |
| phill | people disagree about that | 16:24 |
| yashgaroth | like, way more than other cells? | 16:24 |
| phill | but in mice at least some people just inject naked DNA into the bloodstream. yes, a lot more. but there's some evidence this happens because they're using disease models, and diseased muscle cells can take up dna more easily. | 16:25 |
| phill | also, they use high-pressure injection, which sometimes kills the mouse. | 16:26 |
| kanzure | ah yes renal vein naked dna injection | 16:26 |
| nmz787 | how do you use HP injection? | 16:26 |
| yashgaroth | naked DNA uptake is a lot higher in mice, and yes the hydrodynamic injection would probably have a lot more off-target uptake | 16:26 |
| yashgaroth | that's why I prefer electrotransfer | 16:26 |
| nmz787 | seems like you'd need to counter the pressure, by placing the animal under more atmospheres | 16:26 |
| yashgaroth | internal and external pressure aren't linked | 16:27 |
| phill | interesting idea, nmz787 | 16:27 |
| phill | no? | 16:27 |
| phill | it works for scuba divers | 16:27 |
| yashgaroth | no, that's why you can survive in a vacuum for a few minutes | 16:27 |
| nmz787 | you're saying if I pump up my blood vessels, shit wont pop open? | 16:27 |
| yashgaroth | the lethality is mostly from popping cells | 16:27 |
| phill | but, if it did work, then the high pressure injection would give no advantage. | 16:27 |
| yashgaroth | that too | 16:28 |
| nmz787 | i thought vacuum survival is because your bones are blood vessels that arent compressible/expandable | 16:28 |
| phill | instead of a high pressure injection, put your mouse in a vacuum. :) | 16:28 |
| yashgaroth | it's the same reason a sphere of water in space doesn't immediately explode into individual molecules | 16:28 |
| phill | doesn't it? | 16:29 |
| yashgaroth | nah | 16:29 |
| phill | has anybody even tried that...? | 16:29 |
| yashgaroth | sure, when they expel astronaut urine | 16:29 |
| phill | I would think that would just be surface tension, and it would only hold droplets together | 16:29 |
| yashgaroth | well skin is an effective surface tension | 16:29 |
| phill | also, the urine might freeze rapidly | 16:30 |
| yashgaroth | argh what am I, a physicist? | 16:30 |
| yashgaroth | high-pressure injection is promising for limb injections, I'll admit | 16:30 |
| Vicarious | hi | 16:31 |
| delinquentme | are there any beagleboard / raspberry pi type operations which are commerically working? | 16:31 |
| delinquentme | which have cashola | 16:31 |
| phill | yashgaroth, what do you want a $10k centrifuge for? | 16:31 |
| nmz787 | delinquentme: isn't raspPi and bb working | 16:31 |
| yashgaroth | mostly spinning down the bacteria for the plasmid preps | 16:32 |
| yashgaroth | also it needs to be refrigerated | 16:32 |
| delinquentme | raspberrypi isnt commercial and neither is bb | 16:32 |
| delinquentme | I mean they're got massive companies w expense budgets | 16:32 |
| phill | you can stick a centrifuge in a refrigerator | 16:32 |
| nmz787 | delinquentme: what do you mean, isn't selling something commerce? | 16:32 |
| phill | do you need more than 25,000 RPM? | 16:32 |
| yashgaroth | maybe 5000g's, rpm's depends on the rotor size | 16:33 |
| phill | I think plasmid preps just need an eppendorf 5415c | 16:33 |
| phill | ebay, $200 | 16:33 |
| phill | stick it in the fridge | 16:33 |
| yashgaroth | for minipreps, not gigapreps | 16:33 |
| phill | gigapreps? | 16:33 |
| yashgaroth | 10 milligrams at a time, not 10 micrograms | 16:33 |
| phill | how did you calculate how much final material you need? | 16:34 |
| nmz787 | y do you need so much? | 16:34 |
| nmz787 | for lossy uptake by humans? | 16:34 |
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| yashgaroth | because non-viral transfections are inefficient | 16:34 |
| phill | anyway, bucket refrigerated centrifuge, ebay, $500 | 16:34 |
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| nmz787 | also are you starting with coli | 16:34 |
| nmz787 | ? | 16:34 |
| yashgaroth | yes | 16:34 |
| nmz787 | doesn't that need HPLC to get rif of the endo toxs | 16:35 |
| yashgaroth | I figure 2mg/injection, and you're gonna need quite a few to get a noticeable effect | 16:35 |
| yashgaroth | no that's what the triton x-114 is for | 16:35 |
| yashgaroth | hplc is also waaay too low-throughput | 16:35 |
| phill | oh, so when you say electroporation, you mean getting a big electrostim machine with electrodes | 16:35 |
| yashgaroth | basically a gel power supply hooked up to needles | 16:35 |
| phill | or do you mean needles? | 16:35 |
| phill | oh. | 16:35 |
| yashgaroth | surface electroporation works worse the bigger your target | 16:36 |
| kanzure | phill: warning, i think yashgaroth's equipment cost estimates are all wrong :) | 16:36 |
| kanzure | you can build a centrifuge safely for much less than $10k | 16:36 |
| yashgaroth | I try to estimate high in case of cost overruns, but yes with enough ebay-fu you could do it for less | 16:36 |
| phill | I have wondered whether interference stim might be better for electroporation. AFAIK nobody has ever tried it. | 16:37 |
| nmz787 | yashgaroth: two years ago on craigslist i saw a new benchtop centrifuge with fridge for <$1k | 16:37 |
| nmz787 | i'm not sure you could use falcon tubes or just eppendorfs tho | 16:37 |
| yashgaroth | like, RNAi electroporation? | 16:37 |
| phill | current electroporation techniques are just straightforward voltage. | 16:38 |
| yashgaroth | nmz, most of the work is in 250mL bottles and 50mL tubes | 16:38 |
| phill | but physical therapy electrostim is done by interference between two alternating currents | 16:38 |
| yashgaroth | to trigger muscle contraction, you mean? | 16:39 |
| phill | yes. allows you to get a high-frequency electric field spread out over a large area without burning the flesh near the electrodes. | 16:39 |
| phill | not of as much use in mice. | 16:40 |
| yashgaroth | if it makes pores form, then sure, but you don't necessarily want a large area outside of the injection site | 16:40 |
| phill | how many injections are we talking about? | 16:40 |
| yashgaroth | 'as many as it takes' | 16:40 |
| phill | how many cc's of tissue per injection? | 16:40 |
| yashgaroth | approximately 1 | 16:40 |
| phill | bcoz if the answer is 1, you are in for a lot of pain | 16:40 |
| phill | yikes | 16:40 |
| yashgaroth | heh | 16:40 |
| yashgaroth | you can optimize the voltage/current for that to some degree, but yeah | 16:41 |
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| yashgaroth | it'd tend toward the lower end of the effective power spectrum...you don't want to kill the cells you transfect | 16:42 |
| phill | you may be better off with synthol... | 16:42 |
| yashgaroth | steroids are the main competition, true | 16:42 |
| phill | synthol is not a steroid - it's more like plastic | 16:43 |
| yashgaroth | well that's silly | 16:43 |
| phill | looks like muscle mass from the outside | 16:43 |
| yashgaroth | I'm not in this for the bodybuilding aspect | 16:43 |
| phill | so what's your objective? | 16:43 |
| yashgaroth | muscle growth, hopefully with functional gain | 16:44 |
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| yashgaroth | bodybuilding's fine, but I don't see the point if you're just inflating the tissue | 16:48 |
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| phill | if the point is to look good, it doesn't really matter what's underneath | 16:50 |
| phill | either objective is equally valid | 16:51 |
| kanzure | and of course if you want raw strength you would just implant actuators or something | 16:51 |
| kanzure | or wear your non-existant exoskeleton | 16:51 |
| yashgaroth | if the choice was between muscles that have twice the capacity, versus muscles that are twice as big, I'd pick the first option | 16:52 |
| yashgaroth | maybe that's just me :/ | 16:52 |
| nmz787 | how long do you think the effect would take? | 16:53 |
| nmz787 | and last? | 16:53 |
| nmz787 | can i inject this week, and have beach bod next week? | 16:53 |
| phill | no | 16:53 |
| yashgaroth | there's a hard cap on the rate of muscle growth | 16:54 |
| kanzure | i am a little disappointed that nobody here takes steroids | 16:54 |
| kanzure | i should recruit someone from bodybuilding.com's forums | 16:54 |
| nmz787 | is it growth or expansion of existing cells' volume? | 16:54 |
| kanzure | or hell maybe there's an appropriate goon.. | 16:54 |
| yashgaroth | increase in both the number and size of fibers, but mostly just size | 16:54 |
| nmz787 | so that's not growth in the sense of fibers multiplying | 16:55 |
| nmz787 | but still limited you say? | 16:55 |
| yashgaroth | in what sense? | 16:56 |
| kanzure | phill: look for the private message | 16:56 |
| phill | no one knows what the limits would be in humans | 16:56 |
| kanzure | nmz787: http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/bodybuilding/ | 16:56 |
| phill | but muscle doesn't grow very fast, and you'd get stretch marks if it did | 16:56 |
| kanzure | muscle growth is an interesting research topic | 16:56 |
| yashgaroth | with combined inhibitors in transgenic models, the total increase is about 300% | 16:56 |
| kanzure | "just exercise! it'll grow because.. well just because" | 16:56 |
| kanzure | anyway that link has my paper dump on muscle growth research (not myostatin) | 16:57 |
| kanzure | just normal "exercise a muscle and observe wtf" | 16:57 |
| phill | "limits" is misleading | 16:57 |
| phill | how much risk do you want? | 16:57 |
| kanzure | well take the point at which a human dies | 16:58 |
| phill | doubling your muscle mass would probably lead to an early death | 16:58 |
| kanzure | and back it off just a bit | 16:58 |
| yashgaroth | schwarzenegger seems to be doing okay | 16:58 |
| kanzure | what is he on? his fifth heart? | 16:58 |
| yashgaroth | he has a pre-existing condition! | 16:58 |
| kanzure | bah | 16:59 |
| phill | all I see on google is that he had heart valve surgery in 1997 | 16:59 |
| yashgaroth | pretty sure he just has a defective valve from birth or something | 17:00 |
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| kanzure | ah right.. yeah i am probably making up the heart thing | 17:00 |
| phill | I do'nt know effect size in humans, but growth and longevity are two opposed pathways in all multicellular organisms. | 17:00 |
| phill | Enhancing growth leads to early death, across all animals. | 17:01 |
| phill | Statistically speaking. | 17:01 |
| kanzure | no growth also leads to death | 17:01 |
| nmz787 | i was talking about limit of growth rate | 17:01 |
| nmz787 | not limit of overall growth | 17:01 |
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| yashgaroth | a lot of that's also from birth, if you're gonna end up 8 feet tall you're gonna have a bad time for sure | 17:01 |
| nmz787 | it would be pretty sweet to be skinny most of the year, save on calories/food, then a week before a hiking/mountaineering/scuba diving... bulk up | 17:02 |
| yashgaroth | food's cheap | 17:02 |
| nmz787 | then after the excursion get thin again to save | 17:02 |
| nmz787 | meh | 17:02 |
| phill | calories are expensive | 17:02 |
| kanzure | "For just $2/month, you can sponsor nmz787" | 17:02 |
| phill | calories kill | 17:02 |
| kanzure | there was a huge spike in the CR cult in the 80s/90s | 17:03 |
| kanzure | not so much any more | 17:03 |
| kanzure | now it's all paleoCR or something | 17:03 |
| yashgaroth | they're all too weak to type now | 17:03 |
| phill | enhancing your muscle growth is basically doing the opposite of CR | 17:03 |
| yashgaroth | michael rae was a fucking skeleton when I met him | 17:03 |
| nmz787 | well | 17:04 |
| nmz787 | not necessarily | 17:04 |
| nmz787 | you wouldn | 17:04 |
| nmz787 | t | 17:04 |
| nmz787 | be pounding your liver | 17:04 |
| nmz787 | right, it would require protein for sure | 17:04 |
| phill | regardless of what individual CR people do, if you are a mammal, that enhancing growth tends to shorten your lifespan. | 17:04 |
| phill | not because of the effects of tthe growth, but because all the pathways that need to switch on for you to grow, or to sustain muscle mass, also turn off the pathways that extend life, such as DNA repair or apoptosis or stem cell quiescence. | 17:05 |
| yashgaroth | luckily muscle doesn't get cancer | 17:05 |
| kanzure | is that true? | 17:06 |
| nmz787 | heart cancer doesnt exist? | 17:06 |
| yashgaroth | it's absurdly rare | 17:06 |
| kanzure | well, i suppose a heart is likely to be one of the more optimized organs | 17:06 |
| yashgaroth | multinucleated cells have difficulty becoming malignant | 17:06 |
| nmz787 | well would myostatin inhibition turn on any of those pathways? | 17:06 |
| phill | http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Deaths_from_muscle_cancer | 17:06 |
| phill | but, yes, rare | 17:06 |
| kanzure | nmz787: probably as a downstream consequence | 17:06 |
| kanzure | because myostatin inhibitors will cause other pathways to continue to use resources | 17:07 |
| phill | I have to get back to work and get some code running tonight | 17:07 |
| yashgaroth | well, thanks for stopping by | 17:08 |
| kanzure | delinquentme vanished. hmm | 17:09 |
| yashgaroth | also both those wiki deaths were from smooth muscle cancer :D | 17:09 |
| kanzure | jrayhawk: are there any good ORMs on cpan for perl, anything that works well with mongodb? | 17:09 |
| kanzure | wait, is jrayhawk our most senior resident perl monk.. or is there someone else | 17:10 |
| kanzure | nmz787: http://www.thorlabs.com/newgrouppage9.cfm?objectgroup_id=1044 | 17:14 |
| kanzure | ooh "Objectives designed for high-power Nd:YAG applications" | 17:15 |
| kanzure | oooh "Multiphoton Physiology Objectives with high NA and long working distance designed to work in the 380 - 1100 nm range" | 17:15 |
| kanzure | you know, it would be nice to make our laser cutter have a rotary tool head or something | 17:16 |
| kanzure | where the laser can be rotated out and we could just aim a webcam to use it as a high quality microscope | 17:16 |
| kanzure | by rotary i mean multi-tool like in those giant cnc machining centers for exchanging tool tips | 17:17 |
| kanzure | http://scienceonlinebayarea.org/events/2012/04/soba-data-visualization-and-data-journalism-in-science/ | 17:18 |
| kanzure | http://sobadata.eventbrite.com/ | 17:18 |
| kanzure | http://www.shapeoko.com/ looks like another cnc router | 17:26 |
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| kanzure | hi skorket | 17:34 |
| skorket | hey kanzure | 17:34 |
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| b_nicotina | What if they use super cold nitrogen gas to freeze policy? | 17:36 |
| kanzure | policy? | 17:37 |
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| b_nicotina | &one's body | 17:38 |
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| Mariu | hmm | 17:49 |
| Mariu | Alcor ? | 17:50 |
| kanzure | nmz787: helicose | 17:51 |
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| kanzure | p121212 | 18:00 |
| kanzure | http://www.p212121.com/ | 18:01 |
| kanzure | http://www.helicosbio.com/ looks like quake is on this | 18:05 |
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| kanzure | juul: hi | 18:06 |
| juul | hiya | 18:06 |
| kanzure | did you get github access? | 18:06 |
| juul | I don't think so | 18:07 |
| kanzure | probably in your inbox | 18:07 |
| juul | didn't get a notification | 18:07 |
| kanzure | ok | 18:07 |
| kanzure | https://github.com/meawoppl/SLFA | 18:07 |
| juul | i get a 404 | 18:07 |
| kanzure | ok. fixing.. | 18:07 |
| kanzure | juul: try now | 18:08 |
| kanzure | delinquentme dropped in +78 scrapers today | 18:09 |
| juul | wow | 18:10 |
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| kanzure | "The metadata services pilot followed release of the 2007 “Report on the Future of Bibliographic Control” by the Working Group on the Future of Bibliographic Control, formed by the Library of Congress to address changes in how libraries must do their work in the digital information era. The ability to leverage upstream publisher data effectively was central to the Working Group's recommendations." | 18:39 |
| kanzure | gah.. "bibliographic control" | 18:39 |
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| kanzure | delinquentme: https://jobs1-oclc.icims.com/jobs/2097/job?hub=6 | 18:43 |
| jrayhawk | re: Perl ORM: I would suggest using one of the Moose ones if you want to foolishly attempt good engineering | 18:44 |
| kanzure | thanks. | 18:45 |
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| kanzure | delinquentme: ok i'm about ready to crack some out | 20:19 |
| kanzure | just finishing up some other code | 20:19 |
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| delinquentme | http://spectrum.ieee.org/automaton/robotics/diy/mutant-quadrotor-mav-lifts-off-after-a-century-of-development | 20:23 |
| delinquentme | weird flying machine | 20:23 |
| delinquentme | http://spectrum.ieee.org/automaton/robotics/diy/ucsds-latest-ifling-is-100-more-flingy | 20:24 |
| delinquentme | REALLY | 20:24 |
| delinquentme | fucking christ | 20:24 |
| delinquentme | people are paid | 20:24 |
| delinquentme | to build this shit | 20:24 |
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| kanzure | "paid" is a relative term :) | 20:25 |
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| delinquentme | this is awesome http://spectrum.ieee.org/automaton/robotics/diy/youve-never-seen-a-drive-system-like-this-before | 20:31 |
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| katsmeow-afk | i have seen it before tho, and wondered the same now as then: how long before it melts thru the plastic coating on the floor, or the rubber ball starts smoking? | 20:43 |
| delinquentme | katsmeow-afk, seems like a small issue | 20:43 |
| delinquentme | ps katsmeow-afk why are you never @ keyboard :P | 20:44 |
| katsmeow-afk | sorry, was afk installing an new hd | 20:47 |
| katsmeow-afk | i multitask a lot, keybd means sitting still | 20:47 |
| katsmeow-afk | even if at the keybd, no telling which puter it's hooked to : http://designerthinking.com/images/puterlab/DSCF1739.jpg | 20:49 |
| delinquentme | what are you doing w all that goodness? | 20:49 |
| katsmeow-afk | keeping busy | 20:50 |
| katsmeow-afk | a pata drive began talking in glyphs , i stopped windoze from "fixing it", cable had gone bad, i replaced the full hd with a new one, and a new cable too | 20:52 |
| katsmeow-afk | gave that puter some work doing backups, to keep it busy tonite | 20:53 |
| katsmeow-afk | don't be real envious of the shelf-full, they are all over 10 yrs old, and none are nix | 20:54 |
| delinquentme | yeah i noticed :D | 20:56 |
| delinquentme | eff | 20:56 |
| delinquentme | like im pissy | 20:56 |
| delinquentme | and wishing i had a makerbot | 20:57 |
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| kanzure | epitron: hi | 21:14 |
| epitron | yo | 21:14 |
| epitron | sup | 21:14 |
| kanzure | could ask you the same, where've you been? | 21:15 |
| epitron | around :) | 21:15 |
| epitron | i peek in here occasionally | 21:16 |
| epitron | i've been idle here for quite a while | 21:16 |
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| diginet | reprap > makerbot | 21:22 |
| diginet | for many different reasons | 21:22 |
| epitron | reprap represent | 21:24 |
| diginet | I'm just morally oppossed to the MakerBot people | 21:25 |
| diginet | bleh | 21:25 |
| diginet | MakerBot is a good lesson on how to sell an inferior product with significant markup | 21:26 |
| kanzure | and yet adrian bowyer still dumped $25k into makerbot | 21:26 |
| diginet | maybe he did, but I still hate those tools | 21:27 |
| delinquentme | epitron, do you have a reprap? | 21:33 |
| epitron | nope! | 21:34 |
| delinquentme | i just mean something that I can make parts with | 21:34 |
| * Mokbortolan_ reads a book claiming that the early christians were really an essenian mushroom cult, and "Jesus Christ" was a reference to hallucinogenic mushrooms. | 21:40 | |
| katsmeow-afk | i would not have thought of mushrooms in the desert | 21:42 |
| katsmeow-afk | snorting frankensence, maybe | 21:42 |
| kanzure | phew. | 21:47 |
| Mokbortolan_ | err, I don't think that place was a desert back then | 21:48 |
| kanzure | delinquentme: ok, what's the next site on the list | 21:49 |
| delinquentme | its in the files there | 21:50 |
| yashgaroth | it was as much of a desert as it is now, which is 'not a desert in some spots' | 21:50 |
| delinquentme | i marked you working from the bottom up | 21:50 |
| kanzure | delinquentme: what is JsonMethods | 22:00 |
| delinquentme | module w a json checker | 22:00 |
| kanzure | ok.. why not put that in ./skraper_addons instead of each file | 22:01 |
| delinquentme | specifially | 22:01 |
| delinquentme | what did i ask | 22:01 |
| delinquentme | fucking come some shit | 22:01 |
| kanzure | huh? | 22:02 |
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| kanzure | delinquentme: atla, bibl, celdes, cnpiec, dietrich's index philosophicus, gale/cengage | 22:16 |
| kanzure | ibr internationale bibliographie der rezensionen geistes - und sozialwissenschaftlicher zeitschritenliteratur | 22:16 |
| kanzure | ibz internationale bibliographie der geistes | 22:17 |
| kanzure | index theologicus, inist, minerva, proquest, xolopo | 22:17 |
| delinquentme | other journals? | 22:18 |
| kanzure | publishers | 22:18 |
| kanzure | or indexing things | 22:18 |
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| kanzure | 'mental health abstracts' | 22:27 |
| kanzure | embase | 22:27 |
| kanzure | expanded academic asap (what?) | 22:27 |
| diginet | is there a word for researching molecules that behave similarly to one another, i.e. finding a replacement for an expensive material in some sort of product? | 22:30 |
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| Mokbortolan_ | yes! | 22:37 |
| Mokbortolan_ | err | 22:37 |
| Mokbortolan_ | well, no | 22:37 |
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| Mokbortolan_ | But, it reminded me of something | 22:37 |
| diginet | ah | 22:37 |
| Mokbortolan_ | it's a problem for perfumers | 22:38 |
| Mokbortolan_ | perfumiers? | 22:38 |
| Mokbortolan_ | anyway, there's a way of analyzing the "resonant frequency" of molecules, calculating molecules with similar frequencies, and then synthesizing them | 22:38 |
| Mokbortolan_ | there's a guy who figured this out and does just this for perfumers to replace expensive ingredients | 22:39 |
| Mokbortolan_ | or dangerous/banned ingredients | 22:39 |
| diginet | wat | 22:41 |
| yashgaroth | did you have a particular molecule in mind diginet? | 22:41 |
| Mokbortolan_ | it somewhat controversial | 22:42 |
| Mokbortolan_ | 's | 22:42 |
| Mokbortolan_ | "the vibration theory of olfaction" | 22:42 |
| diginet | yashgaroth, I was just pondering the possibility of mimicking the structure (and thus function) of proteins with things that can be synthesized in vitro | 22:43 |
| Mokbortolan_ | oh, that probably wouldn't apply | 22:43 |
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| kanzure | delinquentme: pull | 22:52 |
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| diginet | is there much on the direct chemical synthesis of proteins? | 23:20 |
| yashgaroth | sure, but it gets obscenely hard the longer the protein is | 23:21 |
| diginet | how come? I know you probably have to protect the other end of the polypeptide chain somehow, but other than that what causes the problem? | 23:23 |
| diginet | the amino acids bonding chains beside the desired one? | 23:23 |
| diginet | coudl you do it via microfluidics? | 23:23 |
| yashgaroth | same problems as dna synthesis, but the disadvantages act much worse | 23:24 |
| yashgaroth | if one in 100 dna strands is right, you can still find it and you're set | 23:24 |
| yashgaroth | if one in 100 protein strands is right, it's useless | 23:24 |
| diginet | oh, yeah | 23:25 |
| kanzure | also the protein can start to fold | 23:25 |
| kanzure | but yes you can do in vitro protein foldig in microfluidics | 23:25 |
| yashgaroth | that too, which would be less of an issue except they get synthesized in the opposite direction they are by a ribosome | 23:25 |
| kanzure | *folding | 23:25 |
| diginet | what if the invidiual amino acids were propelled down tube which held the growing chain but was too thin to allow it to fold? | 23:26 |
| diginet | *down a tube | 23:26 |
| kanzure | why would you want that? | 23:27 |
| diginet | so that it folds all at once | 23:28 |
| diginet | (you mentioned premature folding as a problem) | 23:29 |
| diginet | draw the chain out and then let it fold | 23:29 |
| yashgaroth | what's wrong with in vitro translation | 23:30 |
| kanzure | "folding all at once" isn't how it normally happens anyway | 23:31 |
| kanzure | a ribosome poops it out | 23:31 |
| diginet | isn't in vitro painfully slow? | 23:32 |
| yashgaroth | hahaha versus peptide synthesis? | 23:32 |
| kanzure | you could always just use a cell/host | 23:32 |
| diginet | I'm just reading out of curiosity | 23:32 |
| yashgaroth | in vitro is lightning fast compared to chemical | 23:32 |
| diginet | I'm not planning not to use a host | 23:32 |
| diginet | why are they slow compared to in vivo synthesis? | 23:33 |
| yashgaroth | waiting for the chemical reaction to proceed, various washing and deprotecting steps | 23:33 |
| diginet | what if the process was automated? | 23:34 |
| kanzure | he is talking about automated :) | 23:34 |
| yashgaroth | it usually is, yeah | 23:35 |
| yashgaroth | holy shit 20 minutes per residue? that's even worse than I thought | 23:35 |
| diginet | wait, are you serious? | 23:35 |
| kanzure | yep.. | 23:35 |
| yashgaroth | versus, at worst, one per second on a ribosome | 23:35 |
| kanzure | one second is a pretty long time for a ribosome to wait | 23:35 |
| diginet | I thought translation was more like 10 amino acids per second | 23:36 |
| yashgaroth | I mean at absolute worst, but yes usually it is | 23:36 |
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| diginet | what makes the ribosome so much faster? | 23:37 |
| kanzure | billions of years | 23:37 |
| diginet | :P | 23:37 |
| kanzure | that's what the definition of enzymes is | 23:38 |
| kanzure | they tend to increase the likelihood of a certain chemical reaction occurring | 23:38 |
| diginet | ohhhh right of course | 23:39 |
| kanzure | in this case there's a network of highly specialized proteins with strong binding affinities for different regions of the ribosomal subunits | 23:39 |
| diginet | so what if you had little microfluidic chambers with a ribosome "glued" to the wall, a pool of tRNAs, and then you sent an mRNA to each chamber | 23:40 |
| kanzure | you would probably lower the reaction efficiency because normally both are free-moving | 23:41 |
| yashgaroth | ribosomes only add the correct tRNA | 23:41 |
| kanzure | and you don't want it glued to a wall.. you want to streptavidinylate or biotinylate it to a bead | 23:41 |
| kanzure | diginet: http://groups.google.com/group/enzymaticsynthesis/browse_thread/thread/7959df81b3429eda | 23:43 |
| kanzure | in particular look near the part where EE-Tu is brought up | 23:43 |
| kanzure | aww yeah diagrams http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Translation.gif | 23:44 |
| yashgaroth | unnnngh it even has transmembrane detection | 23:45 |
| kanzure | diginet: but yes it's not inconceivable to physically isolate ribosomes and play around with them | 23:47 |
| kanzure | it just won't be as productive as you're hoping, at least not at first.. | 23:47 |
| kanzure | if dna synthesis won a nobel prize in the 1980s, what does whole genome synthesis merit? | 23:52 |
| kanzure | or, rather, the nobel prize was for peptide synthesis | 23:52 |
| --- Log closed Sat Apr 14 00:00:34 2012 | ||
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