| --- Log opened Mon Apr 16 00:00:00 2012 | ||
| --- Day changed Mon Apr 16 2012 | ||
| Mokbortolan_ | hehehe | 00:00 |
|---|---|---|
| Mokbortolan_ | "politics" is just an emergent behavior of the human mind | 00:00 |
| strangewarp | Glorious | 00:01 |
| strangewarp | I made a flamoot Markov-bot on another server 8) | 00:01 |
| Mokbortolan_ | discussing issue-level politics is pointless | 00:01 |
| sylph_mako | :D | 00:01 |
| sylph_mako | but flamoot's not that incoherent. | 00:01 |
| sylph_mako | So merely :] | 00:02 |
| sylph_mako | and +1 Mokbortolan_. +1 so hard. | 00:02 |
| Mokbortolan_ | I have a hard time talking to "normal" people about politics | 00:03 |
| Mokbortolan_ | they always go on about X or Y is right or wrong, and I keep going on about their tactics in terms of the underlying psychology | 00:04 |
| sylph_mako | I suppose an issue becomes a political mire when the uninformed masses become fearful enough that the motives of those who engage with in issue are unjust, that they're willing to step in and fight against them without coming to know the issue intimately themselves. | 00:04 |
| sylph_mako | Ideally we should never have people who don't know the issues intimately involved, but, unfortunately, sometimes it will appear justifiable to get involved on summaries. | 00:05 |
| sylph_mako | To be driven by summaries and editorializations from voices of authority, rather than first hand judgement. | 00:06 |
| sylph_mako | social individualist: You can do what you like, because the system will stop you doing anything too terrible. | 00:09 |
| Mokbortolan_ | well, the problem as I see it, is that people are humans | 00:15 |
| Mokbortolan_ | logic and reason don't really enter into it most of the time | 00:15 |
| Mokbortolan_ | it's mostly just people justifying the decisions they've already made | 00:16 |
| Mokbortolan_ | "the social brain" is really interesting, and not least because I have one to experiment with :) | 00:17 |
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| sylph_mako | I was just detailing why a rational agent with limited intel might misengage, wasn't I. My friends often tell me I'm too optimistic. | 00:18 |
| sylph_mako | I think they're right. I think I'd be a lot less optimistic if I spent more time around normal people. | 00:19 |
| jrayhawk | Mokbortolan_: http://www.politicalcompass.org/ if you look at the region-specific charts, the flattening is rather common to winner-takes-all election models | 00:19 |
| sylph_mako | On the other hand, there's a rational basis for pursuing confirmation bias as well, isn't there. | 00:24 |
| sylph_mako | It's a time-saving measure. | 00:25 |
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| delinquentme_ | HEWDEH | 05:06 |
| delinquentme_ | HOWDEH* | 05:06 |
| kanzure | hi nmz787 | 05:11 |
| kanzure | hi delinquentme_ | 05:11 |
| delinquentme_ | i guess doing electrical | 05:13 |
| delinquentme_ | quickest way | 05:13 |
| delinquentme_ | is to do the shit eh? | 05:13 |
| kanzure | http://www.nature.com/news/homegrown-labware-made-with-3d-printer-1.10453 | 05:15 |
| kanzure | http://spacehack.org/category/open-source http://mach30.org/ http://opensourcebridge.org/sessions/407 and whoever the hell earthlight is | 05:19 |
| nmz787 | hi | 05:23 |
| nmz787 | http://www.phys.ksu.edu/people/faculty/flanders-b.html | 05:24 |
| nmz787 | delinquentme_: HEWDY HEWW! | 05:30 |
| delinquentme_ | yeh haha | 05:31 |
| nmz787 | prof is using peanut butter as example for HPLC stationary phase | 05:34 |
| delinquentme_ | i LIKE THE PART WHERE ACADEMICS PASS ME AROUND | 05:35 |
| delinquentme_ | they dont know what to do | 05:35 |
| delinquentme_ | academia, government huge corporations | 05:35 |
| nmz787 | i was actually thinking i wanted to try HPLC with ground peanuts a few weeks ago | 05:35 |
| delinquentme_ | they all specialize in everyone elses responsibility ! | 05:35 |
| nmz787 | (as the packing) | 05:35 |
| delinquentme_ | i was about to ask ... to discover they're carbon? | 05:36 |
| nmz787 | well you would use atomic absorbtion chromatography to do that | 05:37 |
| nmz787 | where you just burn your sample to see the atomic spectrum | 05:37 |
| nmz787 | i literally mean grinding peanuts to a powder and packing that into a column, then passing your sample over that column | 05:38 |
| delinquentme_ | wait so you're using the peanuts as a consumable | 05:43 |
| delinquentme_ | not what you're actually analysing huh | 05:43 |
| nmz787 | ya | 05:46 |
| nmz787 | it was just a thought, i haven;t tried it | 05:46 |
| nmz787 | figure George Washington Carver would be proud | 05:46 |
| kanzure | how much does a hplc column go for on ebay | 05:47 |
| nmz787 | not sure | 05:47 |
| nmz787 | can get expensive i know that | 05:48 |
| nmz787 | dunno if ebay is the go-to source for columns either :) | 05:48 |
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| kanzure | nonsense! everything is better when from ebay | 05:54 |
| kanzure | hplc columns | 05:56 |
| kanzure | socks? yep | 05:56 |
| kanzure | sandwiches? check, better from ebay | 05:57 |
| delinquentme_ | ^^^^ | 05:57 |
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| delinquentme_ | so whats up with the cutter kanzure nmz787 | 05:59 |
| nmz787 | i need to make a post on a physics forum about the laser | 06:02 |
| kanzure | i think we still haven't decided on the bluray diode vs. a co2 tube laser | 06:02 |
| nmz787 | i had been communicating with one guy via email, but he wasn't answering my questions directly | 06:02 |
| nmz787 | the last thing i asked simon was if the bluray drive lens fouls, I don't think its possible to replace, so is he expecting me to use drives disposably | 06:03 |
| nmz787 | and his reply was, i dont think it will foul, but try it | 06:03 |
| delinquentme_ | so you're worried about burning out the lenses? | 06:04 |
| delinquentme_ | like they're not horrible expensive | 06:04 |
| nmz787 | i mentioned the versalaser optics for $3k getting 38.1 micron spot, and he said that price sounded about right.... so physics forum could help us piece together the optics on our own, for maybe 1/3 the price hopefully | 06:04 |
| nmz787 | nah not burning out, but getting smoky/reacted with | 06:04 |
| nmz787 | bluray drives have a really close working distance | 06:05 |
| nmz787 | basically he was saying the easiest thing would be to use one of those, and maybe replace the diode with a higher pwered one.... because the optics would be all figured out and taken care of | 06:05 |
| nmz787 | but i think his perspective is el-cheapo science tricks | 06:05 |
| nmz787 | i don't think he actually think I want to do professional quality work | 06:06 |
| nmz787 | or that I am scared of the high cost of custom precision | 06:06 |
| nmz787 | he makes a good point that bluray drives are commodity and cheap because of that | 06:07 |
| nmz787 | already have small spot size | 06:07 |
| nmz787 | but anytime I asked how to do it with custom optics, he didn't answer me other than saying it would be expensive and to try a drive first | 06:07 |
| delinquentme_ | are there mechanical engineering IRc channels? | 06:11 |
| delinquentme_ | i need a clevarr way to completely eliminate dust from belt degredation | 06:11 |
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| kanzure | delinquentme_: haha you're in it | 06:18 |
| kanzure | but if our mechanical answers suck, use #reprap and #linuxcnc | 06:18 |
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| kanzure | hi chandoo | 06:25 |
| chandoo | hello | 06:25 |
| chandoo | kanzure:-) how is life | 06:25 |
| kanzure | pretty great | 06:26 |
| kanzure | chandoo: what brings you here? | 06:26 |
| chandoo | bio hacking, dns sequencing open hardware | 06:27 |
| chandoo | bio hacking, dna sequencing open hardware | 06:27 |
| delinquentme_ | sounds about right | 06:28 |
| chandoo | what you guyz chat and do for fun here | 06:28 |
| delinquentme_ | robawtz | 06:28 |
| delinquentme_ | hackz | 06:28 |
| delinquentme_ | you know for life and bio | 06:29 |
| kanzure | ah sorry, we only do dna synthesis, sequencing is.. well ok i guess we can do sequencing too | 06:31 |
| nmz787 | lol | 06:31 |
| nmz787 | we'll have to pull sequencing into the mix eventually | 06:31 |
| nmz787 | to sequence DNA you basically need a 60 cm long capillary about 50 microns diameter, filled with polymer gel, and a spectrometer on the end looking for the fluorophores on the DNA molecules | 06:32 |
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| JayDugger | Good morning, everyone. | 06:34 |
| delinquentme_ | thats sanger right? | 06:34 |
| delinquentme_ | howdeh JayDugger | 06:34 |
| nmz787 | yep | 06:34 |
| nmz787 | i think sanger has a lot of potential still | 06:35 |
| nmz787 | until nanopore takes over, if it works, at least | 06:35 |
| nmz787 | i have some ideas for low voltage sanger seq, envisioning an iPhone sequencer for field use | 06:36 |
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| kanzure | 07:14 < oiaohm_> brocktice: blender has quite a good physic engines. Most insane addon to bender will make it caculuate the sound water will produce running over the object | 07:15 |
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| delinquentme_ | thats pretty nuts | 07:25 |
| kanzure | delinquentme_: you know what would be better? calculating the sound of water flowing over some hairy nuts | 07:25 |
| delinquentme_ | unique way of telling me you havnt washed in a while? | 07:26 |
| delinquentme_ | MUH NUTS SO HAIRY | 07:26 |
| delinquentme_ | WATER NO FLOW | 07:26 |
| delinquentme_ | nix that "THERE IS NO WATER" | 07:27 |
| kanzure | well i was trying to go for 'american machoism' but that's just downright unsanitary man | 07:27 |
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| delinquentme_ | lololol | 07:39 |
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| delinquentme_ | ThomasEgi, is micro USB a solid way to communicate between microcontrollers? | 08:03 |
| delinquentme_ | or is there tons of slow overhead to get the usb libs working? | 08:04 |
| ThomasEgi | micro usb is just a plug-type | 08:04 |
| phryk | delinquentme_: From what I've heard the 'normal' way people would go about this would be doin rs 232 over a serial line. | 08:05 |
| phryk | Then again I have almost 0 experience with µcs :P | 08:05 |
| delinquentme_ | so effectively just the hardware | 08:05 |
| ThomasEgi | usb generaly is quite a lot of overhead. there are atmegas with usb controllers buildin | 08:05 |
| ThomasEgi | there it's okay | 08:05 |
| delinquentme_ | yeah RS 232 is ugly | 08:05 |
| ThomasEgi | for most μc you are best of with rs232 on TTL levels. and a rs232-usb adabter | 08:05 |
| delinquentme_ | if i've got a primary MC and a number of slave MCs | 08:06 |
| ThomasEgi | communication between microcontrollers is a different story | 08:06 |
| ThomasEgi | you have plenty of options there. | 08:06 |
| delinquentme_ | and I pin out 12 microUSB connectors on the primary | 08:06 |
| ThomasEgi | why microusb? | 08:06 |
| delinquentme_ | all the slave micros I've looked at have them | 08:07 |
| delinquentme_ | and they're nice and small | 08:07 |
| delinquentme_ | normal USB is also an option | 08:07 |
| ThomasEgi | you looked at breakout/development boards then? | 08:07 |
| delinquentme_ | but I'd like the machine to come across as recognizable as possible in all its hardware | 08:07 |
| delinquentme_ | i've only looked at a few | 08:08 |
| delinquentme_ | but I know I'm going to need something like a dev to get 12 USBs onto | 08:08 |
| ThomasEgi | you are.. not making too much sense atm. can you try to explain what exactly you want to do (as general project idea, leaving out the technical implementation) | 08:09 |
| delinquentme_ | http://imgur.com/cdTPb | 08:09 |
| delinquentme_ | theres a schematic i made | 08:09 |
| nmz787 | uc to uc is best wit i2c or spi protocol | 08:09 |
| delinquentme_ | basically desktop >> router >> multiple machines ( with a 1x main mc and 12 slave MCs ) | 08:10 |
| delinquentme_ | uc? | 08:10 |
| ThomasEgi | .. why so many μc?? | 08:10 |
| delinquentme_ | modular | 08:10 |
| ThomasEgi | but why?? | 08:10 |
| delinquentme_ | well its designed to be able to use a single one of the cores | 08:11 |
| delinquentme_ | or 12 | 08:11 |
| ThomasEgi | from what it looks you want to controll a lot of stepper motors right? | 08:11 |
| delinquentme_ | is that specifically bad ? | 08:11 |
| delinquentme_ | yeah | 08:11 |
| ThomasEgi | you dont need tons of μc then | 08:11 |
| delinquentme_ | so to call it a mc might be a mis understanding | 08:11 |
| delinquentme_ | basically i need a unit | 08:11 |
| delinquentme_ | PCB MC XYZ | 08:12 |
| delinquentme_ | that controls each core | 08:12 |
| delinquentme_ | which reports to the main micro | 08:12 |
| nmz787 | just need lots of gpio or a muxer | 08:12 |
| delinquentme_ | gpio? | 08:12 |
| delinquentme_ | general process IO? | 08:12 |
| ThomasEgi | purpose | 08:12 |
| ThomasEgi | do you have dedicated stepper driver ic's? | 08:13 |
| delinquentme_ | planning on it but those arent picked out | 08:13 |
| nmz787 | allegro chips r good | 08:13 |
| delinquentme_ | but thats something you put on a separate MC? | 08:14 |
| ThomasEgi | microcontrollers dont drive motors | 08:14 |
| ThomasEgi | they only tell the driver what to do | 08:14 |
| ThomasEgi | the μc is ways to weak | 08:14 |
| delinquentme_ | so what do you call a PCB with a driver chip on it? | 08:14 |
| ThomasEgi | a stepper driver | 08:15 |
| ThomasEgi | some come as a single chip. | 08:15 |
| ThomasEgi | some are the H-bridge only, some include a logic that allows you to use direction and stepping to controll the motor. | 08:15 |
| delinquentme_ | yeah I've seen chips like the easy driver atc | 08:16 |
| delinquentme_ | etc** | 08:16 |
| ThomasEgi | the whole design depends on what kind of driver you pick | 08:16 |
| nmz787 | polulu.com has allegro breakout boards | 08:17 |
| delinquentme_ | i think i've actually got a few of those drivers too | 08:17 |
| ThomasEgi | in most cases you can controll a a whole lots of steppers with a signle microcontroller | 08:17 |
| nmz787 | h bridge is also called full bridge | 08:17 |
| delinquentme_ | http://www.pololu.com/catalog/product/1182 | 08:17 |
| delinquentme_ | yeah I've got that guy | 08:17 |
| ThomasEgi | the you only need directon and step signal | 08:18 |
| ThomasEgi | that's 2 pins per motor | 08:18 |
| ThomasEgi | you can easily drive 12 steppers on a single microcontroller with that. | 08:19 |
| delinquentme_ | modular | 08:19 |
| ThomasEgi | if you get one with more giop you may end up with even more. | 08:19 |
| delinquentme_ | not optimized | 08:19 |
| nmz787 | ? | 08:20 |
| nmz787 | wat u mean? | 08:20 |
| ThomasEgi | if you want it modular, you can use shift registers. with parallel load | 08:20 |
| ThomasEgi | like a 74hc595 | 08:20 |
| delinquentme_ | so its adding additional complexity | 08:20 |
| ThomasEgi | that makes it very modular | 08:21 |
| ThomasEgi | actually.. it doesnt | 08:21 |
| delinquentme_ | yeah but im the guy programming it | 08:21 |
| ThomasEgi | doesnt make a difference. | 08:21 |
| nmz787 | using 1 controller is less complex | 08:21 |
| delinquentme_ | ok so 1MC | 08:21 |
| delinquentme_ | to control 12 of these drivers | 08:21 |
| delinquentme_ | you're saying program in something to allow me to control 12 steppers w this driver | 08:22 |
| nmz787 | u can use 12 drivers | 08:23 |
| nmz787 | if u dont use a shift register it wont be synchronous tho | 08:24 |
| nmz787 | unless u use multiple cores or run way faster than u need to operate | 08:24 |
| nmz787 | which in latter only appears synch, but really isnt | 08:25 |
| nmz787 | ti c2000 controllers are optimized for motor control | 08:26 |
| nmz787 | but that may be wayyy more than u need | 08:26 |
| delinquentme_ | TLDR on "shift register" plz | 08:27 |
| nmz787 | tldr means? | 08:28 |
| nmz787 | sry | 08:28 |
| delinquentme_ | too long didnt read | 08:28 |
| nmz787 | in class | 08:28 |
| delinquentme_ | haha like a 1 line summation | 08:28 |
| delinquentme_ | on what they are | 08:28 |
| nmz787 | serial in, parallel out | 08:28 |
| nmz787 | or opposite | 08:28 |
| delinquentme_ | serial commands? | 08:30 |
| delinquentme_ | nmz787, you wanna just do the electronics for this | 08:30 |
| delinquentme_ | ill focus on capital you can teach me how youd wire it | 08:31 |
| nmz787 | lol, wat is it? | 08:31 |
| _F7_ | are you trying to build an android? What is this? | 08:31 |
| _F7_ | I've never seen a machine with more than a dozen steppers | 08:31 |
| _F7_ | And I've seen some machines | 08:32 |
| nmz787 | multi liquid handler | 08:32 |
| _F7_ | I've taken one apart | 08:32 |
| kanzure | should just use a micro liquid handler anyway | 08:32 |
| nmz787 | acc to his img schematic | 08:32 |
| nmz787 | ya i agree | 08:32 |
| nmz787 | uFluidics! | 08:33 |
| _F7_ | It was run off of a stacked electropnumatic/hydraulic system | 08:33 |
| _F7_ | overcomplicated if you ask me | 08:33 |
| _F7_ | but cheaper to scale and easier to control | 08:33 |
| delinquentme_ | yeah liquid handler | 08:34 |
| delinquentme_ | speed to market man! | 08:34 |
| _F7_ | It was an automated cell counter | 08:34 |
| delinquentme_ | take a tech they already grok and make it so stupid cheap they'd be tards not to buy | 08:34 |
| delinquentme_ | undercut tecan | 08:34 |
| _F7_ | seemed to use inflourescence and some trick chemistry | 08:34 |
| kanzure | does tecan make money? | 08:35 |
| ThomasEgi | sry for the absence. delinquentme_ with enough gpio you dont need shift registers to controll 12 steppers. all you need is 2 pins per stepper. | 08:36 |
| delinquentme_ | does pharma need more robots? | 08:36 |
| ThomasEgi | nmz787, using 595 shift registers allows you to add a global clock strobe. so you can step hundrets of motors in perfect sync. | 08:37 |
| nmz787 | 595 is a chip series? | 08:38 |
| ThomasEgi | it is a logic chip. | 08:38 |
| ThomasEgi | a serial in, serial+parallel out. | 08:38 |
| delinquentme_ | so yeah i've got 2 pins to control each of those drivers .. so total of 48 pins for controlling the steppers | 08:38 |
| ThomasEgi | with a output register | 08:39 |
| ThomasEgi | in that case you can get 24 steppers | 08:39 |
| ThomasEgi | on a single microcontroller | 08:39 |
| ThomasEgi | if you go with the 74hc595. you only need 3 pins. it is more modular and the code is cleaner. | 08:40 |
| ThomasEgi | not sure if it makes a lot of sense to go this way tho. | 08:41 |
| ThomasEgi | your biggest problem will be to supply the actual commands to the microcontroller. fast enough. | 08:41 |
| delinquentme_ | to the MC from the desktop you're saying | 08:42 |
| ThomasEgi | sorta | 08:42 |
| ThomasEgi | the motors usualy are driven with precise timing. so in most cases the entire programm for driving the motors is running on the microcontroller. | 08:43 |
| ThomasEgi | not sure if that applies to microfluids too. | 08:43 |
| delinquentme_ | but its then not a good idea to have a primary micro controlling slave micros? | 08:43 |
| nmz787 | ftdiusb to serial can do mbits easily | 08:43 |
| ThomasEgi | nmz787, bitrate isnt the problem. timing is | 08:44 |
| ThomasEgi | delinquentme_, that only distributes the problem. but doesnt simplify it. | 08:44 |
| nmz787 | queue? | 08:44 |
| nmz787 | sd card imo is good n cheap | 08:45 |
| nmz787 | 1 wire comm | 08:45 |
| delinquentme_ | slave MC polls for code ... waits for commands from the Primary mc | 08:45 |
| ThomasEgi | nmz787, the point is. you have to actually drive 24 steppers motors. | 08:45 |
| delinquentme_ | ThomasEgi, but doesnt the slave MC have its own processor? | 08:45 |
| ThomasEgi | that means. you have to know direction, the time between steps, and the total ammount of steps | 08:45 |
| delinquentme_ | and if the primary MC is doing nothing but sending out short bit-based protocols? | 08:45 |
| ThomasEgi | delinquentme_, waiting deadlocks all steppers connected. | 08:46 |
| delinquentme_ | waht? | 08:46 |
| ThomasEgi | so your master-microcontroller has to supply the data at the right time. | 08:46 |
| delinquentme_ | that doesnt make sense | 08:46 |
| ThomasEgi | a microcontroller cant do multitasking | 08:46 |
| ThomasEgi | it can only do one thing at a time. | 08:47 |
| delinquentme_ | so it sends out a protocol and moves onto checking all the other registers | 08:47 |
| ThomasEgi | you can have interrupts from the internal timers, but if your master cant supply the new data, it wont move a bit | 08:47 |
| delinquentme_ | corresponding to all the slave MCs | 08:47 |
| delinquentme_ | if a slave MC has something to report back it pops its register and the Primary controller reads that output | 08:47 |
| nmz787 | propeller can multitask | 08:47 |
| delinquentme_ | otherwise if no registers are in a popped state the main mc will sequentially read the 1-12 registers over and over and await new commands from the desktop | 08:48 |
| ThomasEgi | delinquentme_, you cant just remote-access registers in other microcontrollers | 08:48 |
| delinquentme_ | ok register is the wrong word | 08:49 |
| ThomasEgi | when you send data around. one microcontroller is busy sending. and the other is receiving | 08:49 |
| delinquentme_ | designate a connection between the primary and each of the slaves | 08:49 |
| delinquentme_ | high = new information | 08:49 |
| delinquentme_ | low = pass onto next MC | 08:49 |
| ThomasEgi | ... during the actual data transmittion...they will still be busy | 08:49 |
| delinquentme_ | so you're saying that 1) Primary sends command to slave 2) slave stops all processing 3) reads input 4) does stuff | 08:50 |
| delinquentme_ | perfect we're working in a state machine | 08:50 |
| ThomasEgi | yeah | 08:50 |
| delinquentme_ | like that sounds ideal to me? | 08:51 |
| nmz787 | ttyl | 08:51 |
| ThomasEgi | yeah. but the thing is. your slave serves many steppers. | 08:51 |
| ThomasEgi | while it waits for the info on one of them. the others can deadlock. | 08:51 |
| delinquentme_ | each slave is going to either be 1) controlling a stepper or linear actuator 2) checking the value on a few sensors | 08:52 |
| ThomasEgi | waitwait | 08:52 |
| ThomasEgi | you want to get feedback data too?? | 08:52 |
| delinquentme_ | yeah | 08:52 |
| ThomasEgi | all in one circuit? | 08:52 |
| delinquentme_ | is that crazy? | 08:52 |
| delinquentme_ | like were running at how many Hz | 08:53 |
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| ThomasEgi | ... well crazy is something else but it does make stuff more difficult | 08:53 |
| delinquentme_ | yeah i guess i should have labeled the string pot as a sensor | 08:53 |
| ThomasEgi | i thought the pot was for controlling motor current or so | 08:53 |
| delinquentme_ | each slave needs to control 2 steppers, 1 linear actuator, 1 string potentiometer and 1 physical switch | 08:53 |
| delinquentme_ | ohhhhh | 08:54 |
| delinquentme_ | nah its for location | 08:54 |
| ThomasEgi | in that case. you are no longer "controlling" | 08:54 |
| delinquentme_ | there are 12 slaves in the system | 08:54 |
| ThomasEgi | instead, you are regulating | 08:54 |
| delinquentme_ | and an additional 4 string pots and 4 steppers | 08:54 |
| delinquentme_ | regulating | 08:54 |
| ThomasEgi | like giving your slave a target to reach | 08:54 |
| delinquentme_ | ok can you explain a bit more about that | 08:55 |
| delinquentme_ | yeah | 08:55 |
| delinquentme_ | thall work | 08:55 |
| ThomasEgi | usualy. you drive steppers blindly. | 08:55 |
| ThomasEgi | you know the mechanics and stuff. calculating the neccessary steps. and simply force them on the motor. | 08:55 |
| ThomasEgi | with no feedback at all | 08:55 |
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| ThomasEgi | with maybe an endstop-switch | 08:56 |
| delinquentme_ | no rotary encoder on the steppers? | 08:56 |
| ThomasEgi | no | 08:56 |
| delinquentme_ | i've been told thats kind of a "you always do that" | 08:56 |
| ThomasEgi | they are steppers already | 08:56 |
| delinquentme_ | which can miss a step | 08:56 |
| ThomasEgi | if you tell it to make one step. it will make one | 08:56 |
| delinquentme_ | ideally you have sufficient power not to | 08:56 |
| delinquentme_ | or get bigger steppers | 08:56 |
| ThomasEgi | (given you stay within operational parameters) | 08:56 |
| delinquentme_ | but does it hurt that you've got multiple verifications? | 08:57 |
| ThomasEgi | yeah. it does :D | 08:57 |
| delinquentme_ | how so? | 08:57 |
| delinquentme_ | more things to program? | 08:57 |
| ThomasEgi | it will cause you headaces when designing the circuit, logic, and code | 08:57 |
| kanzure | delinquentme_: you should consider using linuxcnc | 08:57 |
| ThomasEgi | so it will hurt you | 08:57 |
| kanzure | you don't need 1 MHz stepping so you can just use linuxcnc | 08:57 |
| _F7_ | Yo-yo potentiometers are way expensive. I can't imagine displacement is very much? | 08:57 |
| delinquentme_ | 160 for 3' @ sub mm accuracy | 08:58 |
| _F7_ | It's for the linear actuator, right? | 08:58 |
| delinquentme_ | nah its to locate microplates along a 3' span | 08:58 |
| delinquentme_ | https://github.com/delinquentme/LH002/raw/master/images/LH002_full_01.png << along the z axis in this pic | 08:58 |
| _F7_ | ah | 08:58 |
| _F7_ | to what accuracy? | 08:59 |
| delinquentme_ | they need to hit a space of 7mm | 08:59 |
| delinquentme_ | so i think encoders @ sub mm will do | 08:59 |
| delinquentme_ | thoughts? | 08:59 |
| _F7_ | that is pretty rough | 08:59 |
| _F7_ | so easy | 08:59 |
| delinquentme_ | ThomasEgi, heres the thing w the encoders on steppers .. when CMU roboticists say you should always measure them | 08:59 |
| delinquentme_ | like I find that a smart thing to do | 09:00 |
| _F7_ | Have you tried to source them yet? | 09:00 |
| delinquentme_ | and like lets be honest ... that is *the source* of your movement | 09:00 |
| delinquentme_ | yeah | 09:00 |
| delinquentme_ | celesco | 09:00 |
| delinquentme_ | gotta call the dude later today to see if hell send me free samples :D | 09:00 |
| _F7_ | Yeah I know, but did you get a quote? | 09:00 |
| _F7_ | ah, cool | 09:00 |
| delinquentme_ | yeah | 09:00 |
| delinquentme_ | $160 | 09:00 |
| ThomasEgi | delinquentme_, you are not doing robotics here. | 09:00 |
| delinquentme_ | .... | 09:00 |
| _F7_ | apeice?!? | 09:00 |
| delinquentme_ | yeah | 09:01 |
| _F7_ | fffff | 09:01 |
| delinquentme_ | ThomasEgi, this is not robotics? | 09:01 |
| _F7_ | you're looking at mm accuracy in a three inch span | 09:01 |
| ThomasEgi | well not to the extend robotics applies | 09:01 |
| _F7_ | wait | 09:01 |
| _F7_ | three feet? | 09:01 |
| delinquentme_ | _F7_, 3 foot | 09:01 |
| delinquentme_ | 3' ive always used as 3 feet :D | 09:01 |
| ThomasEgi | in robotics you could expericence big loads that my overload your motors capabilities, thus losing steps | 09:01 |
| delinquentme_ | 3" inches | 09:01 |
| ThomasEgi | in your case. you are just driving a very well known system. so you can make sure no steps are lost. | 09:02 |
| delinquentme_ | ThomasEgi, so your argument is make the steppers bigger to guarantee you dont miss a step | 09:02 |
| ThomasEgi | nope | 09:02 |
| delinquentme_ | " solve it with steppers intead of sensors" | 09:02 |
| ThomasEgi | just make sure you stay within the operational parameters | 09:02 |
| ThomasEgi | there is no need to over-dimension your steppers. | 09:02 |
| ThomasEgi | just get them right. | 09:02 |
| delinquentme_ | so no rotary encoders on steppers | 09:03 |
| ThomasEgi | in your case there simply is little reason to assume that your motor will be overloaded, thus losing steps | 09:03 |
| delinquentme_ | like I can see the string pot covering the placement easily enough | 09:03 |
| ThomasEgi | you can use them. but there is no need. | 09:03 |
| _F7_ | Ah, I have a middle-solution | 09:03 |
| delinquentme_ | um | 09:04 |
| delinquentme_ | shit | 09:04 |
| ThomasEgi | if you lose steps, then you need a bigger motor anyway. | 09:04 |
| _F7_ | Use properly sized steppers and a microswitch to home them in | 09:04 |
| ThomasEgi | as you have no peak-loads | 09:04 |
| delinquentme_ | i need to source the peristaltic pump | 09:04 |
| _F7_ | There are pretty decent ones inside of swiffer wetjets.. | 09:05 |
| delinquentme_ | haha so you've said :D | 09:05 |
| delinquentme_ | so the peristaltic pumps will come with or without encoders but thats depending on the supplier | 09:07 |
| delinquentme_ | http://www.welco.net/wp10a_e.html these look pretty | 09:08 |
| ThomasEgi | those are DC motors | 09:11 |
| ThomasEgi | not steppers | 09:11 |
| ThomasEgi | without encoders you are totaly lost with DC | 09:11 |
| _F7_ | twenty bucks, crack open a wetjet | 09:11 |
| _F7_ | stick a rotary encoder inline. done | 09:11 |
| _F7_ | well, not done | 09:12 |
| _F7_ | but there's some hackery | 09:12 |
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| n_bentha | http://www.nature.com/nchem/journal/vaop/ncurrent/full/nchem.1313.html | 09:13 |
| kanzure | "Integrated 3D-printed reactionware for chemical synthesis and analysis" | 09:14 |
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| kanzure | there's also another article floating around today.. | 09:22 |
| kanzure | "Frustrated ALS Patients Concoct Their Own Drug" | 09:22 |
| kanzure | oh nevermind. this is just a patientslikeme spin piece. | 09:24 |
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| delinquentme_ | HOWDEH kidz | 09:29 |
| n_bentha | hey kanzure | 09:30 |
| n_bentha | did u get that hail in h-town? | 09:30 |
| kanzure | h-town? | 09:31 |
| delinquentme_ | this is cool http://www.labcyte.com/ | 09:38 |
| delinquentme_ | umm price collusion is illegal yes? | 09:42 |
| n_bentha | nvm | 09:42 |
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| delinquentme_ | how about product collusion? | 09:42 |
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| kanzure | they will want "IP" | 09:42 |
| n_bentha | sonice liquid handling so cool | 09:43 |
| n_bentha | sonic* | 09:43 |
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| delinquentme_ | I guess I could outsource support contracts to big supplier | 09:46 |
| delinquentme_ | thats open source | 09:46 |
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| delinquentme_ | kanzure, has anyone coined the term ajar-source hardware? | 09:50 |
| delinquentme_ | http://www.gilson.com/en/Pipette/Products/45.265/Default.aspx#.T4xOYKT3sVk | 09:53 |
| delinquentme_ | Can we agree yet that this is a machine task? | 09:53 |
| kanzure | everyone /agrees/ of course | 09:57 |
| kanzure | but nobody wants to buy the $15k machine to do it | 09:57 |
| delinquentme_ | how cheap can we get it | 09:59 |
| delinquentme_ | IZ DUH QUESTSHUN | 09:59 |
| audy | just use undergrads | 09:59 |
| delinquentme_ | MARKETING MATERIALS | 09:59 |
| delinquentme_ | im writing them | 10:00 |
| delinquentme_ | audy, and this is why academia isnt the target market | 10:00 |
| delinquentme_ | because replace grad students with machines | 10:00 |
| audy | hmm this thing really costs $15K? | 10:00 |
| delinquentme_ | not only lessens the university's ability to employ the people they train but it ALSO lessens the chance that a prof can make one of his grads his wife! | 10:01 |
| audy | I have a "system" for repetitive pipetting work | 10:01 |
| delinquentme_ | audy, nah i dont think the LED tracker costs 15g | 10:01 |
| delinquentme_ | hold your breath? | 10:01 |
| audy | Like rotating the tubes after each step | 10:01 |
| audy | my PI married his graduate student | 10:02 |
| delinquentme_ | there you go | 10:03 |
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| delinquentme_ | dont tell me that srsly my heads big enough | 10:03 |
| audy | I'm confused | 10:03 |
| delinquentme_ | audy, about what | 10:04 |
| audy | the size of your head | 10:04 |
| delinquentme_ | ohh hahah its an american saying for having a big ego | 10:04 |
| delinquentme_ | or thinking you know everything | 10:04 |
| delinquentme_ | audy, where you from? | 10:05 |
| audy | I know but was it the rotating of the tubes or the marrying of the grad student that caused in the inflation? | 10:05 |
| audy | delinquentme_ vermont. | 10:05 |
| delinquentme_ | oh | 10:05 |
| delinquentme_ | hahah | 10:05 |
| delinquentme_ | the marrying of the PI to the student | 10:05 |
| audy | oh | 10:05 |
| audy | yeah that's common | 10:05 |
| delinquentme_ | like academia is a system onto itself | 10:05 |
| delinquentme_ | and its more about showing how "intelligent" you are | 10:05 |
| delinquentme_ | shit | 10:06 |
| delinquentme_ | i shouldn't have said that hahah! | 10:06 |
| delinquentme_ | anyhoo! | 10:06 |
| audy | It's just a job | 10:06 |
| audy | anyways… | 10:06 |
| audy | does anyone know a good way to quickly record audio onto a lot of casette tapes? | 10:06 |
| audy | I need an industrial casette tape recorder | 10:07 |
| audy | maybe this is the wrong channel. | 10:07 |
| kanzure | you could pay a bunch of people to do it for you ? | 10:08 |
| kanzure | or you could buy a lot of recorders | 10:08 |
| audy | I meant the equipment really | 10:10 |
| delinquentme_ | #electronics would probs have some solid guesses | 10:10 |
| audy | ty | 10:12 |
| katsmeow-afk | buy some 1980's high speed duplicators | 10:19 |
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| Utopiah | (ad) http://www.travellingsalesmanmovie.com | 10:20 |
| katsmeow-afk | the top end models would do 64x normal speed | 10:20 |
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| delinquentme_ | nmz787, I need a 4 million sqf solar sail by next week | 10:40 |
| delinquentme_ | and i need to check on you progress in a few hours :D | 10:40 |
| delinquentme_ | OMW! | 10:40 |
| delinquentme_ | in all seriousness what are the aspects of a company | 10:41 |
| delinquentme_ | to approach for partnering | 10:41 |
| kanzure | what are you partnering for? | 10:41 |
| delinquentme_ | i think open source is sufficiently scary | 10:41 |
| delinquentme_ | money, street cred and maybe some bio consulting | 10:41 |
| delinquentme_ | i fear their software stack though | 10:42 |
| delinquentme_ | they're gonna be BLAHHH ASP ORACLE | 10:42 |
| kanzure | no i mean, what are you offerring a potential partner | 10:42 |
| delinquentme_ | .NET! | 10:42 |
| delinquentme_ | insight | 10:42 |
| delinquentme_ | conehos | 10:42 |
| kanzure | your insight is weak and anyone who has thought about lab robotics can say the same things :p | 10:42 |
| kanzure | no? | 10:42 |
| delinquentme_ | nah i wouldnt say that | 10:43 |
| delinquentme_ | most lab roboticists are conditioned for the existing system | 10:44 |
| delinquentme_ | but part of that is doing the shit | 10:44 |
| delinquentme_ | partner with labs who have the crazy sensors | 10:44 |
| delinquentme_ | partner w tecan for their pressure sensitive pipetting | 10:44 |
| delinquentme_ | build the rest of the machine | 10:45 |
| delinquentme_ | use their pipettes | 10:45 |
| delinquentme_ | warmer? | 10:45 |
| kanzure | why would they partner with you, again? | 10:47 |
| kanzure | do you mean "buy from tecan"? | 10:47 |
| delinquentme_ | correct | 10:49 |
| delinquentme_ | if you've got ajar-source hardware | 10:49 |
| delinquentme_ | and they're seeing that what they can do with 60g | 10:49 |
| delinquentme_ | i can do with 10 | 10:49 |
| delinquentme_ | and the market supports this ajar source more than closed | 10:50 |
| delinquentme_ | easy! | 10:50 |
| kanzure | the cost to develop, build or make their product is not $60k | 10:52 |
| kanzure | to develop it they probably spent a few million because they hired some engineers who said so | 10:53 |
| kanzure | to build it they are probably paying a few hundred bucks in parts | 10:53 |
| kanzure | assembly/testing- not sure- could be anything | 10:53 |
| delinquentme_ | oh for sure i know their costs are massive | 10:54 |
| delinquentme_ | i mean at production this could be substantially cheaper than 15k | 10:54 |
| delinquentme_ | IDK how much | 10:54 |
| delinquentme_ | that requires nmz787 and ThomasEgi | 10:54 |
| nmz787 | yo | 10:55 |
| ThomasEgi | kanzure is pretty much right about that | 10:55 |
| delinquentme_ | i mean it would be sweet to be able to hire like 10 of us wouldn't it | 10:55 |
| ThomasEgi | development is expensive. and if you dont sell in numbers. you have to get your money back with high prices | 10:55 |
| delinquentme_ | totally i agree they've spent way too much | 10:56 |
| delinquentme_ | true dev is expensive | 10:56 |
| kanzure | delinquentme_: i don't understand why they would hire 10 of us? | 10:56 |
| delinquentme_ | hahah no | 10:56 |
| kanzure | that's already at least a million/year | 10:56 |
| delinquentme_ | they'd say " Ok yes we need a way to transition into the open source world" | 10:56 |
| delinquentme_ | these guys have a concept | 10:56 |
| delinquentme_ | ehh as a startup slightly less | 10:56 |
| delinquentme_ | but yeah thats once its going | 10:57 |
| kanzure | i doubt tecan wants to transition into being an open source hardware company | 10:57 |
| delinquentme_ | 5 years in without question you could make 100 per | 10:57 |
| delinquentme_ | for sure | 10:57 |
| delinquentme_ | maybe not them | 10:57 |
| delinquentme_ | but someone will | 10:57 |
| kanzure | how do you know that? | 10:57 |
| delinquentme_ | but im saying tecan could be incentivized | 10:57 |
| kanzure | with what | 10:57 |
| ThomasEgi | if there is lots of money to be made. people will make money. | 10:57 |
| delinquentme_ | selling their OEM pumps | 10:57 |
| kanzure | why would we want their pumps | 10:57 |
| delinquentme_ | make big robot and sell tons of their little pressure pumps | 10:58 |
| kanzure | who cares- another proprietary hardware company, big deal.. | 10:58 |
| nmz787 | i've always heard production in tech/lab industry is generally about 1/10th the selling price | 10:58 |
| delinquentme_ | but what im saying is you get to lead the 900 lb gorilla | 10:58 |
| delinquentme_ | ThomasEgi, true | 10:58 |
| delinquentme_ | but HOW that money is made | 10:58 |
| delinquentme_ | what if we make the walmart of biotech hardware | 10:58 |
| ThomasEgi | by selling stuff as expensive as possible. | 10:58 |
| delinquentme_ | like walmart is a bad name to use but sell on volume | 10:59 |
| ThomasEgi | then you need customers.. lots of them | 10:59 |
| delinquentme_ | ThomasEgi, this is more marketing and business | 10:59 |
| delinquentme_ | I'll handle it | 10:59 |
| ThomasEgi | as far as i can see. there simply arent enough | 10:59 |
| delinquentme_ | ThomasEgi, could that be because everyone thinks biotech is SUUUPER hard? | 10:59 |
| ThomasEgi | nope | 10:59 |
| delinquentme_ | what if you go in with a team of kids without degrees in this shit | 10:59 |
| delinquentme_ | and say *LOOK WHAT WE DID* | 10:59 |
| delinquentme_ | pretty good example no? | 11:00 |
| ThomasEgi | because most people rather spend their time sitting in front of tv's eating potatoes. instead of biohacking | 11:00 |
| delinquentme_ | make science approachable! | 11:00 |
| delinquentme_ | ThomasEgi, why is that | 11:00 |
| kanzure | science is approachable | 11:00 |
| ThomasEgi | bcause humans are lazy | 11:00 |
| delinquentme_ | ThomasEgi, so then you make it easy | 11:00 |
| delinquentme_ | ThomasEgi, are humans also curious? | 11:00 |
| kanzure | anyway, most VC firms will not dump money on a group of people without phds | 11:00 |
| ThomasEgi | curious enoguh to switch tv channels | 11:00 |
| kanzure | at least biotech VC | 11:00 |
| delinquentme_ | ThomasEgi, do humans have a deep rooted will to live? | 11:00 |
| delinquentme_ | Do our lizard brains tell us to run the fuck away from that Trex? | 11:01 |
| ThomasEgi | delinquentme_, lazyness wins . at least in our modern society | 11:01 |
| delinquentme_ | I think so. | 11:01 |
| kanzure | you just got super philo on me | 11:01 |
| kanzure | you were talking about walmarts of biotech | 11:01 |
| nmz787 | i am a 'hacker' because i like being lazy | 11:01 |
| kanzure | and now you're on to tv lazyboy chairs | 11:01 |
| kanzure | look, stay focused | 11:01 |
| delinquentme_ | kanzure, wholistic approach | 11:01 |
| nmz787 | the exact reason i'm doing mircofluidics research and not macrofluidics | 11:01 |
| * delinquentme_ passes the joint | 11:01 | |
| nmz787 | because macro requires me to be less lazy | 11:01 |
| kanzure | delinquentme_: i think you need to think harder | 11:01 |
| kanzure | nobody is going to hand you $50 mil on a whim | 11:02 |
| delinquentme_ | hardly | 11:02 |
| kanzure | you just don't have that sort of name recognition | 11:02 |
| delinquentme_ | you dont need 50 million | 11:02 |
| delinquentme_ | you need 100g | 11:02 |
| delinquentme_ | at MOST | 11:02 |
| ThomasEgi | not saying everyone is lazy.. but most are. and if you want to sell stuff for low prices you need to sell in masses. but masses wont buy it because they are lazy. | 11:02 |
| ThomasEgi | that simple | 11:02 |
| kanzure | ok, we have 100g no problem | 11:02 |
| kanzure | stop worrying about money, jesus | 11:02 |
| delinquentme_ | ThomasEgi, lolol you're rolling so much stuff together here | 11:02 |
| delinquentme_ | ThomasEgi, you dont need to sell to everyone ... what about scientists, academics and hobby biologists ALL want thsi machine | 11:03 |
| delinquentme_ | do you think that makes enough of a market to pay a few kids? | 11:03 |
| * delinquentme_ thinks so | 11:03 | |
| ThomasEgi | they wont. they have very diverse interests. and only a few will actually need one. | 11:03 |
| delinquentme_ | kanzure, give me money so i can go start cutting parts :D | 11:03 |
| ThomasEgi | and that's about as many as we have right now | 11:03 |
| kanzure | delinquentme_: ok what parts do you want to cut/why? | 11:03 |
| delinquentme_ | ThomasEgi, only a very few people will ever need computers | 11:03 |
| ThomasEgi | true. | 11:04 |
| delinquentme_ | kanzure, i need 3grand | 11:04 |
| delinquentme_ | main rail + 1 LH core | 11:04 |
| delinquentme_ | 3 grand i can get started | 11:04 |
| ThomasEgi | delinquentme_, most people buy one anyway. because they are lazy and want to be entertained | 11:04 |
| delinquentme_ | lolol | 11:04 |
| delinquentme_ | ThomasEgi, what if ... | 11:04 |
| ThomasEgi | what if - is not part of reailty. | 11:04 |
| delinquentme_ | we begin sequencing everyones DNA .. and we develop software which will allow us specific benefits by customizing drugs that we dose outselves on | 11:05 |
| kanzure | delinquentme_: 3 grand for what | 11:05 |
| delinquentme_ | is that close enough to reality for you? | 11:05 |
| ThomasEgi | great idea. they will make a tv-show and entertain lazy people with it. | 11:05 |
| kanzure | ThomasEgi: are you feeling ok? | 11:05 |
| delinquentme_ | kanzure, a " main rail " and a single 8 channel liquid handling core | 11:05 |
| kanzure | delinquentme_: ok. why the hell does that cost $3k? | 11:05 |
| delinquentme_ | https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AtOqyz8P_fJ0dFN1TDdCMlgySFBHTHA3clZBUkdCNnc#gid=0 | 11:06 |
| delinquentme_ | theres the parts list | 11:06 |
| kanzure | your parts are probably wrong | 11:06 |
| kanzure | drive belts? :/ | 11:06 |
| delinquentme_ | and? | 11:06 |
| ThomasEgi | point is. if it takes more then pressing 4 buttons at most. the average idiot you encounter at wallmart will turn away again. | 11:06 |
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| delinquentme_ | ThomasEgi, you're being a bittery betty | 11:06 |
| delinquentme_ | ThomasEgi, how many people play video games | 11:06 |
| ThomasEgi | delinquentme_, i just met too many fools on this planet. | 11:07 |
| delinquentme_ | how much button pressing is that | 11:07 |
| ThomasEgi | delinquentme_, bout 5 | 11:07 |
| delinquentme_ | ThomasEgi, well then go be foolish with them | 11:07 |
| delinquentme_ | you're here in the company of educated driven individuals | 11:07 |
| ThomasEgi | even hardcore gamers usualy go with less than 8 buttons | 11:07 |
| delinquentme_ | if you're going to say contrarian stuff you need to be specific and realistic | 11:07 |
| ThomasEgi | most casual games go with 3 to 5 | 11:07 |
| delinquentme_ | ThomasEgi, if you want to justify your own laziness do it elsewhere | 11:08 |
| delinquentme_ | seriously im trying to do shit here | 11:08 |
| ThomasEgi | so am i | 11:08 |
| delinquentme_ | you're trying to tell me this cant be done | 11:08 |
| ThomasEgi | just giving advice that counting on the average fool out there is not a good idea. | 11:08 |
| kanzure | i think it's safe to conclude that ThomasEgi really really hates your walmart/biotech idea | 11:08 |
| delinquentme_ | and i dont care how hard you push I will not hear it | 11:08 |
| delinquentme_ | ThomasEgi, I said about 5 minutes back that I dont need to be MTV to make money | 11:09 |
| ThomasEgi | in that case i missed that information | 11:09 |
| delinquentme_ | nor do I need to be on par with rhianna as a house hold name to make a difference | 11:09 |
| delinquentme_ | I dont need *EVERYONE* | 11:09 |
| delinquentme_ | i just need *ENOUGH* | 11:09 |
| kanzure | ok so again.. why are you using belts | 11:10 |
| ThomasEgi | delinquentme_, good luck then. | 11:10 |
| delinquentme_ | and there are fierce intelligent individuals out there who are put HUGE money into this with the belief that thell extend lives | 11:10 |
| delinquentme_ | and I'm with those people ... not the ones who would rather sit back and say " CANT BE DONE " | 11:10 |
| delinquentme_ | kanzure, umm thats just the design | 11:10 |
| delinquentme_ | also they're fast | 11:10 |
| delinquentme_ | that can be changed | 11:10 |
| delinquentme_ | huge steppers are also an option | 11:11 |
| kanzure | yes but the design influences cost | 11:11 |
| kanzure | i don't see why to drop $3k on this | 11:11 |
| delinquentme_ | but! yes reducing costs obv is a solid pursuit | 11:12 |
| kanzure | i think a solid design is important | 11:12 |
| delinquentme_ | true | 11:13 |
| delinquentme_ | so you're just saying put in an acme threaded rod or a ball screw | 11:13 |
| kanzure | i would trust someone else's design instincts over my own | 11:13 |
| kanzure | you should look at fenn's liquid handler designs | 11:14 |
| delinquentme_ | fenn_, you around? | 11:14 |
| delinquentme_ | de donde es liquid handler | 11:14 |
| nmz787 | cycberspace | 11:14 |
| kanzure | fenn_: yeah, where are you anyway? | 11:15 |
| delinquentme_ | also i want modular cores which hook up to a central unit :D | 11:15 |
| delinquentme_ | then I be happy | 11:15 |
| kanzure | fenn hides behind his rotating sleep schedule, but i just need to install a cron job on his laptop that publishes his sleep log | 11:15 |
| delinquentme_ | also acceleration through resonance point | 11:15 |
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| delinquentme_ | and if someone wants me to check their diff eqs on that I can | 11:15 |
| delinquentme_ | ThomasEgi, apologies for reaming :D | 11:16 |
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| nmz787 | delinquentme_: tell us again why you want to do macro liquid handling instead of micro? whats your intended application? | 11:18 |
| delinquentme_ | nmz787, IMO theres fewer things that need to be done | 11:19 |
| delinquentme_ | and like people have liquid handlers now | 11:19 |
| delinquentme_ | so its not this big tech jump for them | 11:19 |
| delinquentme_ | its like same thing >> cheaper | 11:19 |
| delinquentme_ | people are slow .. so like | 11:19 |
| delinquentme_ | this is something they understand | 11:19 |
| delinquentme_ | and just I know it will sell | 11:20 |
| kanzure | do they want to buy it ? | 11:20 |
| delinquentme_ | margins alone itll sell | 11:20 |
| delinquentme_ | good question | 11:20 |
| delinquentme_ | how do you find out | 11:20 |
| kanzure | you ask them | 11:20 |
| kanzure | get a list of 40 people (not us) | 11:20 |
| delinquentme_ | do you ask them or do you tell them that their colleagues have 2 | 11:20 |
| delinquentme_ | hahah its the faster horse problem kanz | 11:20 |
| kanzure | nope | 11:20 |
| kanzure | a car didn't *exist* at the time | 11:21 |
| kanzure | liquid handling machines already exist. | 11:21 |
| delinquentme_ | haha ok youre right | 11:21 |
| delinquentme_ | the thing is | 11:21 |
| delinquentme_ | do we NEED 40 | 11:21 |
| delinquentme_ | i say we need no more than 1 | 11:21 |
| kanzure | yes, you need to know how many people will buy one | 11:21 |
| delinquentme_ | guess who that 1 will be | 11:21 |
| delinquentme_ | some big ass company that needs to see shit | 11:21 |
| delinquentme_ | do you wanna go around pedaling to individual labs? | 11:21 |
| kanzure | that's how you do sales | 11:22 |
| delinquentme_ | whos your market here? | 11:22 |
| delinquentme_ | its one way ! | 11:22 |
| kanzure | if you are selling then you have a sales cycle | 11:22 |
| delinquentme_ | yes but what im asking is who would you want to sell to | 11:22 |
| delinquentme_ | schools fuck that | 11:22 |
| delinquentme_ | we've established that PIs need a pool of hot grad students to pick from | 11:22 |
| kanzure | you've got it backwards | 11:22 |
| delinquentme_ | so they dont want that replaced | 11:22 |
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| kanzure | you should find the customers first, then figure out what they need | 11:23 |
| delinquentme_ | we need to go to industry | 11:23 |
| kanzure | not "i have a product, and no customers, wah" | 11:23 |
| delinquentme_ | kanzure, if they have liquid handlers | 11:23 |
| delinquentme_ | does that not mean | 11:23 |
| kanzure | delinquentme_: explain to brownies what you are trying to sell | 11:23 |
| delinquentme_ | they need liquid handlers? | 11:23 |
| delinquentme_ | brownies, i have this stuff | 11:23 |
| delinquentme_ | that you put into brownies | 11:23 |
| delinquentme_ | kanzure, TLDR | 11:23 |
| delinquentme_ | whats more convincing ... walking up to these guys after getting 4g to proto and saying here | 11:24 |
| delinquentme_ | stress test it and tell me if you want to buy | 11:24 |
| kanzure | brownies: delinquentme wants to build el-cheapo liquid handling machines for lab automation | 11:24 |
| delinquentme_ | or calling them up saying " so im thinking about building" | 11:24 |
| kanzure | brownies: so, i told him to go find 40 people who will buy one | 11:24 |
| kanzure | i mean, let me clarify | 11:24 |
| delinquentme_ | kanzure, we dont want 40 people though | 11:24 |
| delinquentme_ | we want 1 BASF | 11:24 |
| kanzure | he wants to get funding to do that, heh | 11:24 |
| delinquentme_ | we want 1 Thermo Fisher | 11:24 |
| delinquentme_ | we want 1 JCVI | 11:24 |
| delinquentme_ | agreed? | 11:24 |
| delinquentme_ | or like 5 of them | 11:24 |
| kanzure | delinquentme_: why would thermo fischer pay for you to do it ? | 11:24 |
| kanzure | i just don't get it | 11:25 |
| brownies | a series of tubes, you say? | 11:25 |
| kanzure | brownies: indeed sir, except an automated series of tubes | 11:25 |
| delinquentme_ | because I called them and they've got an automation dept who does assembly for research labs | 11:25 |
| delinquentme_ | and " we're always looking for low-cost alternatives" | 11:25 |
| kanzure | ok.. so why didn't they buy 20? | 11:25 |
| brownies | yes, but when you say "i have this crazy idea, i built it, no one's used it ever" that's high-risk => high-cost to them | 11:25 |
| delinquentme_ | Thermo has inhouse engineers who take the existing equip and attempt to automate shit | 11:25 |
| delinquentme_ | brownies, thats why you let them stress test it | 11:26 |
| delinquentme_ | actions = louder than words | 11:26 |
| delinquentme_ | always | 11:26 |
| kanzure | again, why didn't they buy 20? | 11:26 |
| kanzure | if you're 10% the cost? | 11:26 |
| delinquentme_ | kanzure, what am I selling | 11:26 |
| kanzure | i thought you were selling your machine! | 11:26 |
| kanzure | what | 11:26 |
| brownies | you "let" them spend a bunch of money on said idea? how nice of you. | 11:26 |
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| brownies | i suggest the onus is on *you* to de-risk it *for* them | 11:27 |
| delinquentme_ | kanzure, they wan to test | 11:27 |
| delinquentme_ | want* | 11:27 |
| kanzure | ok. so let them test? | 11:27 |
| delinquentme_ | they want tech demos and videos | 11:27 |
| delinquentme_ | on what machine? | 11:27 |
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| kanzure | the one you built | 11:27 |
| delinquentme_ | nedz proto | 11:27 |
| delinquentme_ | thats piddly | 11:27 |
| delinquentme_ | thats not even a LH | 11:27 |
| delinquentme_ | if i was selling a single plate dispenser ok | 11:27 |
| delinquentme_ | im selling a LH machine | 11:28 |
| delinquentme_ | sooo | 11:28 |
| delinquentme_ | im 10 miles from a western union | 11:28 |
| delinquentme_ | nmz787, if I may .. I think that I can go directly to prototyping with just an EE | 11:29 |
| kanzure | ok soo you have no deal with thermofischer | 11:29 |
| delinquentme_ | sounds simple to you doesnt it? | 11:29 |
| kanzure | you need to go find someone who will buy it | 11:29 |
| delinquentme_ | kanzure, you want me to sell it | 11:29 |
| delinquentme_ | before I prototype it? | 11:29 |
| kanzure | yep | 11:29 |
| delinquentme_ | hahaha | 11:29 |
| kanzure | that's how it goes | 11:29 |
| delinquentme_ | sometimes | 11:29 |
| kanzure | you find customers who agree to buy it | 11:30 |
| kanzure | brownies: unless you know a better way | 11:30 |
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| delinquentme_ | kanzure, what im saying is that I want to deal with 1000 lb gorillas | 11:31 |
| delinquentme_ | ( yes they keep getting bigger ) | 11:31 |
| delinquentme_ | and to effectively do that | 11:32 |
| delinquentme_ | or more succinctly " the easiest way " | 11:32 |
| delinquentme_ | is to get 3000 .. build the shit | 11:32 |
| delinquentme_ | and say " play with it " | 11:32 |
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| kanzure | you should ask them what work they would want done on lh001 | 11:33 |
| kanzure | and then get them to agree to order some # of them once that work is completed | 11:34 |
| kanzure | i mean, you get them to do that order upfront | 11:34 |
| delinquentme_ | the lh001 doesnt get the emo response | 11:35 |
| delinquentme_ | like its cute | 11:35 |
| delinquentme_ | I want impending | 11:35 |
| delinquentme_ | let that shit sell itself | 11:35 |
| kanzure | nothing "sells itself" | 11:36 |
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| ThomasEgi | wait. did i get that wrong or are you trying to sell lab equipment by adding cuteness to the device? | 11:36 |
| brownies | he's going to super-glue $3000 worth of googly eyes to it | 11:37 |
| brownies | kanzure is right, you need to find people who want what you have before you blow a bunch of cash building it | 11:37 |
| brownies | and if the thing you want to build is complicated and expensive, then that's only *more* true. | 11:37 |
| nmz787 | delinquentme_: kanzure is right that thermo fisher has their own engineers... and likely won't outsource buying from a no-name company unless you're offering something novel | 11:38 |
| delinquentme_ | nmz787, ummmm im not sure I follow? | 11:39 |
| delinquentme_ | yes they have engineers | 11:39 |
| delinquentme_ | but that doesnt mean they're not working on super automaton 5000 | 11:39 |
| delinquentme_ | where I've got the silly little toy | 11:39 |
| delinquentme_ | kanzure, do apple products? | 11:39 |
| delinquentme_ | you're telling me that all sales is pivotal around dig grabbing and belly rubbing | 11:40 |
| delinquentme_ | DICK*! | 11:40 |
| delinquentme_ | grabbing* | 11:40 |
| delinquentme_ | some people can make logical evaluations | 11:40 |
| delinquentme_ | brownies, we've establsihed that people want it | 11:41 |
| delinquentme_ | theres a market for them no? | 11:41 |
| delinquentme_ | people buy beamers | 11:41 |
| brownies | i think that what you've established is that "there exist people who want it" | 11:41 |
| delinquentme_ | people need the utility of transport | 11:41 |
| brownies | and what you need to establish is "here are 20 of those people, and their phone numbers, and their written agreement to test my duct-taped prototype" | 11:41 |
| delinquentme_ | so theres probably going to be people who need kias too | 11:41 |
| kanzure | brownies: it would be pretty cool if 20 written agremeents would be enough for angel investing | 11:44 |
| kanzure | or N<=1000 | 11:44 |
| brownies | who said angel investing? | 11:46 |
| brownies | i thought you wanted a *business* | 11:46 |
| kanzure | delinquentme just wants money | 11:47 |
| delinquentme_ | brownies, umm i dont follow | 11:47 |
| delinquentme_ | I want to build a robot to talk for me | 11:47 |
| delinquentme_ | please comprehend the nuances of that statement ;D | 11:47 |
| brownies | i thought you wanted to sell series of tubes to people | 11:47 |
| delinquentme_ | lolol | 11:48 |
| delinquentme_ | well tubes transistors and motors | 11:48 |
| delinquentme_ | + duct tape | 11:48 |
| delinquentme_ | brownies, you're an angle arent you | 11:48 |
| delinquentme_ | you should fund me | 11:48 |
| kanzure | an angle? haha | 11:48 |
| brownies | i am rather acute | 11:48 |
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| nmz787 | you're acutey | 11:49 |
| nmz787 | acutey pi | 11:49 |
| brownies | and he's a bit obtuse, how complementary | 11:50 |
| brownies | hm, took just over 20 minutes before i could steer the convo to math puns, not bad. | 11:51 |
| delinquentme_ | brownies, tangests = bad | 11:52 |
| delinquentme_ | tangents!! | 11:52 |
| delinquentme_ | is anyone else on biocoder? | 11:53 |
| delinquentme_ | id they jsut enable friending or something? | 11:53 |
| nmz787 | is biocoder that microsoft library? | 11:53 |
| kanzure | yes :/ | 11:53 |
| kanzure | delinquentme_: maybe you should become a salesman at tecan | 11:55 |
| delinquentme_ | http://www.biocodershub.net/community/ | 11:55 |
| delinquentme_ | haha | 11:55 |
| delinquentme_ | under the table .. between you and me .. this is the machine you really want? | 11:56 |
| nmz787 | ? | 11:56 |
| nmz787 | we want microfluidics | 11:56 |
| nmz787 | hah | 11:56 |
| delinquentme_ | well you want them to be able to do service on them too | 11:58 |
| delinquentme_ | ( with their existing techs ) | 11:58 |
| delinquentme_ | its good for their business no? | 11:58 |
| kanzure | oh shit what? | 11:59 |
| kanzure | i think i just emailed john carmack | 11:59 |
| kanzure | <johnc@idsoftware.com> yep, crap, definitely him | 11:59 |
| nmz787 | who | 12:00 |
| nmz787 | s | 12:00 |
| nmz787 | that | 12:00 |
| nmz787 | ? | 12:00 |
| kanzure | john carmack is your god | 12:00 |
| kanzure | doom? quake? armadillo aerospace? | 12:00 |
| kanzure | http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Carmack | 12:01 |
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| nmz787 | cool | 12:02 |
| nmz787 | what you say? | 12:02 |
| delinquentme_ | 4 random characters | 12:03 |
| kanzure | On Mon, Apr 16, 2012 at 1:35 PM, John Carmack <johnc@idsoftware.com> wrote: | 12:03 |
| kanzure | > My two attempts at modest prizes have not given a lot of hope for this. $2k | 12:03 |
| kanzure | > for a static engine test of a high performance engine has stood for over a | 12:03 |
| kanzure | > decade: | 12:03 |
| kanzure | > http://media.armadilloaerospace.com/misc/hppa2.htm | 12:03 |
| kanzure | > The initial $5k for the 100kft Micro Prize eventually got boosted up over | 12:03 |
| kanzure | > $10k with matching donations, but it has been over a year since it was first | 12:03 |
| kanzure | > offered, and it still hasn’t been fully claimed, although I was happy to | 12:03 |
| kanzure | > give half-credit to Qu8ke. | 12:03 |
| kanzure | > doing tethered liftoffs. The X-Prize was a grand thing, but aside from | 12:03 |
| kanzure | > Scaled, the rest of the field was a bit out of touch with the reality of the | 12:03 |
| kanzure | > problem (Armadillo included). | 12:04 |
| kanzure | > I don’t hold out much hope for getting worthwhile things accomplished with | 12:04 |
| kanzure | > four figure prize sums, but I probably will entertain additional prizes of | 12:04 |
| kanzure | > this magnitude. I feel comfortable with the notion of styling them as | 12:04 |
| kanzure | > “paying for the public report of something you would want to do anyway” more | 12:04 |
| kanzure | > than a prize that is supposed to motivate people. | 12:04 |
| kanzure | On Mon, Apr 16, 2012 at 1:59 PM, Bryan Bishop <kanzure@gmail.com> wrote: | 12:04 |
| kanzure | > Is there any particular reason keeping it as a prize is more useful than | 12:04 |
| kanzure | > just directly paying someone $x,000 to do the work? Besides the obvious | 12:04 |
| kanzure | > and the whole competition seemed a little fuzzy at times- why not just pay | 12:04 |
| kanzure | > answer that it's very hard to find quality work for $x,000. I was putting | 12:04 |
| kanzure | > together gadaprize.org, a $20k and $80k prize fund for RepRap related work, | 12:04 |
| kanzure | > people the $10k to go do the work and make a better PCB? etc. Obviously, the | 12:04 |
| kanzure | > technical realities are different, but the thinking is somewhat the same. | 12:04 |
| nmz787 | i see | 12:05 |
| delinquentme_ | Re: Duh | 12:05 |
| delinquentme_ | lol | 12:05 |
| delinquentme_ | oh nm that was the reply | 12:06 |
| delinquentme_ | http://boingboing.net/2012/01/04/paypal-if-you-dont-like-the.html | 12:07 |
| nmz787 | paypal is a bunch of scumbags | 12:10 |
| nmz787 | they shut down my account and wouldn't tell me why | 12:11 |
| nmz787 | even though all i buy is stuff like electronics and car parts from ebay | 12:11 |
| delinquentme_ | http://oi44.tinypic.com/2m2xpa1.jpg | 12:11 |
| delinquentme_ | TIL atheism is stigmatized | 12:11 |
| nmz787 | my girlfriend, who lives with me, also had hers shut down... because she is associated with me | 12:11 |
| delinquentme_ | yeah paypal is there to protect the larger portion of their market | 12:12 |
| delinquentme_ | the customers | 12:12 |
| nmz787 | even though she only ever buys clothes from ebay | 12:12 |
| nmz787 | i used to sell a lot on ebay | 12:12 |
| delinquentme_ | like kanzure said under wear is better on ebay | 12:12 |
| nmz787 | was one of their platinum members or whatever | 12:12 |
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| delinquentme_ | it is what it is | 12:19 |
| delinquentme_ | they're wildly sucessful | 12:19 |
| delinquentme_ | ok i need to think through selling without having a product | 12:20 |
| delinquentme_ | ill tt u kids in a bitskis | 12:20 |
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| delinquentme | kanzure, how many OKs du want | 13:10 |
| kanzure | get 10-20 people to say they will buy it | 13:11 |
| delinquentme | since you're not going to get a hard contract out of that how about interest | 13:12 |
| delinquentme | " we would be interested in testing a model " | 13:13 |
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| kanzure | delinquentme: no i mean a signed piece of paper | 13:17 |
| kanzure | this happens more often than you might think | 13:17 |
| delinquentme | really now | 13:18 |
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| delinquentme | kanzure, tell me more | 13:20 |
| kanzure | brownies: i dunno, you have a link? | 13:20 |
| brownies | it's called a non-binding letter of interest | 13:21 |
| kanzure | superbrownies to the rescue | 13:21 |
| brownies | for your purposes, an email from the lab manager saying "we have cleared out a space on our lab bench for your tubes" would also suffice. | 13:21 |
| kanzure | dunno.. cleaning is a very huge commitment | 13:22 |
| kanzure | even when you get a new grad student, they don't clean | 13:22 |
| brownies | heh. well, you know what i mean. a concrete statement that they will *use* it, not just "yea bro that sounds cool" | 13:22 |
| brownies | i'd frame it as a testing period of a particular length, so you can try to hammer down some dates with them | 13:23 |
| kanzure | brownies: yes but also the meta-purpose of doing all that too | 13:23 |
| kanzure | actually, i have a better question | 13:24 |
| kanzure | i have a list of strings in ruby that i want to sort by an arbitrary metric, can i pass a block to sort | 13:25 |
| * kanzure looks at the documentation | 13:25 | |
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| kanzure | ah sort_by | 13:25 |
| kanzure | fine then. | 13:25 |
| delinquentme | brownies, to clarify this is a liquid handling robot | 13:26 |
| delinquentme | basically a faster, simpler version of a tecan | 13:26 |
| kanzure | it almost doesn't matter what the product is, i think | 13:27 |
| delinquentme | well clearly they've got money to throw around | 13:27 |
| delinquentme | i've got the schematics | 13:27 |
| kanzure | who has money to throw around? | 13:27 |
| delinquentme | tecan thermo | 13:27 |
| delinquentme | hamilton | 13:27 |
| delinquentme | gilson | 13:27 |
| kanzure | they already sell handlers man | 13:27 |
| delinquentme | yes cannabalism is ok | 13:28 |
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| delinquentme | this is the same reason BMW sells a 1 series | 13:28 |
| delinquentme | its not a BMW but its a BMW | 13:28 |
| nmz787 | who engineered it if not bmw? | 13:32 |
| nmz787 | and for that matter, if some other company engineered it, BMW doesn't buy them, they bought them out | 13:33 |
| nmz787 | why would the LH ppl buy a cheap version from you, when they're making the same thing already... they have the power to buy in volume, so they probably already spend less than you to build their equipment | 13:34 |
| nmz787 | if they wanted a cheap line, it would be straightforward to implement, and they keep their existing customer base happy because its software compatible | 13:34 |
| kanzure | (also they own all the patents and can probably sue you out of existence; but you should ignore this reason) | 13:34 |
| nmz787 | like you said, its nothing new, just cheaper, faster, simpler | 13:35 |
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| nmz787 | definitely seems like a viable product, but i think you're just undercutting engineering costs, which (most) big companies just aren't willing to do | 13:38 |
| jrayhawk | the one series is not just a crappy family hatchback with a BMW badge on it, despite what the automotive press was claiming before it was released | 13:39 |
| jrayhawk | the world needs more small, simple RWD cars. apparently subaru and toyota agree, 'cause they're trying to enter that market now. | 13:40 |
| nmz787 | why RWD? | 13:41 |
| kanzure | the market for oscar meyer weinerdog cars is much greater than they think. | 13:41 |
| nmz787 | (i live in snow climate) | 13:41 |
| delinquentme | nmz787, they're not making the same thing already | 13:42 |
| delinquentme | and i guess you're looking at this like its easy for them to build new machines | 13:42 |
| delinquentme | how many employees do they have | 13:42 |
| delinquentme | what new technology have they integrated to allow the machine to operate better | 13:42 |
| delinquentme | where are those investments? in the shit that already works for them ? nope! | 13:43 |
| delinquentme | its in the sensors, in the peripherals they attach | 13:43 |
| delinquentme | buy those from them | 13:43 |
| delinquentme | implement the rest in faster cheaper ways | 13:43 |
| delinquentme | I can guarantee they spend millions in R&D for a single machine | 13:43 |
| jrayhawk | RWD, aside from the HP losses inherent in an FR setup, is less limiting to driver skill. | 13:44 |
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| jrayhawk | This is particularly important in the snow, though there are weight distribution issues, there, too. | 13:45 |
| nmz787 | wait, HP loss in FWD vs RWD?? never heard of that | 13:45 |
| jrayhawk | More exhaust, more driveshaft. The difference is typically pretty low; like %2-5. | 13:45 |
| nmz787 | how is there more exhaust or driveshaft? FWD only has halfshafts | 13:46 |
| nmz787 | RWD has axle and driveshaft | 13:46 |
| jrayhawk | Yes, RWD has more driveshaft, and thus more weight to spin. | 13:46 |
| delinquentme | is there a specific reason to use I2C between MCs instead of just running wires between the two? | 13:46 |
| nmz787 | my 4x4 S10 blazer has just as much exhaust as my TDI jetta | 13:47 |
| nmz787 | I2C is a wire | 13:47 |
| jrayhawk | Oh, sorry, yeah. | 13:47 |
| delinquentme | apparently IC2 is for low speed peripherals .. when I can simply connect open pins and say " If pin 1 == high do X " | 13:47 |
| nmz787 | ooo, wait, what is FR | 13:47 |
| jrayhawk | I just woke up and I'm a bit dumb. I was thinking partially of mid-engined setups. | 13:47 |
| nmz787 | i thought you were saying more HP loss in FWD | 13:48 |
| jrayhawk | No. | 13:48 |
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| nmz787 | ahh, ok, makes sense now | 13:48 |
| nmz787 | I do have fun whipping around the ocaissional corner in RWD | 13:48 |
| nmz787 | spinning around on snow in 4x4 is pretty cool too, for some reason i just love the idea that all 4 wheels are spinning free | 13:49 |
| jrayhawk | "Oversteer is superior to understeer because you don't get to see the tree that kills you" | 13:49 |
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| nmz787 | its pretty dumb how the U.S. doesnt have more diesels | 13:50 |
| jrayhawk | Um. The U.S. runs on diesel. | 13:50 |
| nmz787 | not commuters | 13:50 |
| nmz787 | well, not personal commuters | 13:50 |
| jrayhawk | Oh, they don't matter that much. | 13:50 |
| nmz787 | i just dont like seeing women driving around unscratched pickup trucks | 13:51 |
| nmz787 | come on, haul some full sheets of plywood or get a mini | 13:51 |
| kanzure | i need to buy a forklift for mom | 13:51 |
| nmz787 | lol | 13:51 |
| kanzure | loading/unloading plywood is a pain | 13:51 |
| nmz787 | i can believe that | 13:51 |
| jrayhawk | Drivetrain inefficiency from Subaru-like AWD systems is atrocious | 13:52 |
| jrayhawk | it can hit 25% | 13:52 |
| jrayhawk | I assume your S10 is a somewhat more efficient live axle setup. | 13:54 |
| nmz787 | my dad has an old 84 chevy... something... has the same engine (2.8L) as my S10 blazer 4x4... when his car was on the road it got at least 5-8mpg more than my blazer... i attribute that mostly to the front diff... esp since i have 5sp and he had auto | 13:54 |
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| jrayhawk | Dayum. | 13:55 |
| jrayhawk | Might also be lighter. | 13:55 |
| jrayhawk | And, depending on how well it was taken care of, might still be getting lighter as bits of it fall off. | 13:55 |
| nmz787 | lol | 13:55 |
| katsmeow-afk | irritates me that the Cooper Mini costs 10x as much as the same sized car made in India, but in the usa we cannot buy the car made in India | 13:56 |
| nmz787 | i used to have a 250cc suzuki ninja, got 55-65 mpg... but with the jetta getting ~44 in city and up to 50 on highway... it was easy to sell off the bike for the extra hauling and safety | 13:56 |
| jrayhawk | I swear I've seen Tata Nano lookalikes here... | 13:57 |
| katsmeow-afk | eitehr way, the cars that small aren't made in usa by a use corp | 13:57 |
| nmz787 | i was reading last night that some folks get an avg of 60 in the same engine series of TDI that I have | 13:57 |
| nmz787 | mainly thanks to air dams in the front grills I think | 13:58 |
| audy | jrayhawk probs smart car | 13:59 |
| katsmeow-afk | a guy not far from me has been using scrap wood to run his trucks ever since gas went up to $1.25/gal | 13:59 |
| jrayhawk | No, I can tell the difference between a Fortwo and a Nano. | 13:59 |
| jrayhawk | haha, oh yeah, i forgot disc brakes are illegal in India | 14:01 |
| nmz787 | i cant believe discs are illegal | 14:01 |
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| nmz787 | my gf is in india, i will have her check the family sedan | 14:01 |
| brownies | why are they illegal? | 14:02 |
| jrayhawk | Unfair advantage or something. | 14:02 |
| _F7_ | My dad gets 50 MPG in his '00 new beetle | 14:02 |
| _F7_ | It's a TDI | 14:02 |
| nmz787 | yup | 14:02 |
| _F7_ | Bypassing the EGR does a lot for performance | 14:02 |
| brownies | unfair advantage? in not crashing your car? | 14:03 |
| kanzure | brownies: everyone does their part | 14:03 |
| _F7_ | TDI Volkswagon's in general are super hackable | 14:03 |
| nmz787 | from 99.5 to 2004.5 had some of the best TDI engines | 14:03 |
| nmz787 | yeah i have the EGR turned off in software | 14:03 |
| katsmeow-afk | i wonder if the discs are illegal because they expect the hydraulics won't be maintained, and manually operated discs don't work worth a darn | 14:04 |
| nmz787 | even cleaned the intake before driving cross country last summer | 14:04 |
| _F7_ | I turned a coupling and just straight up bypassed it | 14:04 |
| _F7_ | It's just a straight pipe out, no backpressure | 14:04 |
| brownies | the only explanation i can think of is that, if your brakes are way better, you can stop faster, and that might increase the % chance of accidents behind you | 14:04 |
| nmz787 | lol, my muffler is pretty much swiss cheese, so i almost have a straight pipe | 14:04 |
| _F7_ | hahaha | 14:05 |
| nmz787 | i didnt find anything on google re illegal discs in india | 14:05 |
| nmz787 | i will def ask my gf to check | 14:05 |
| katsmeow-afk | my real muffler fell off, but the catalytic convertor makes a fine muffler | 14:05 |
| nmz787 | well, i know for certain indian motorcycles have disc brakes | 14:05 |
| _F7_ | I want to try and rig a valve on my exhaust so I can pass emissions, but at the flip of a switch I can just dump the exhaust and get crazy efficiency on the highway or something | 14:06 |
| _F7_ | as an added bonus, I'll be doing a muffler bypass so the switch will also increase engine noise | 14:06 |
| _F7_ | which means all the asshat drunken houston jaywalkers will think I just stomped the accelerator | 14:06 |
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| nmz787 | what do you have? | 14:08 |
| jrayhawk | Yeah, I'm trying to find a useful source for that. | 14:08 |
| nmz787 | the TDI is still damn quiet with practically no muffler as compared to what my gasser would sound like | 14:08 |
| _F7_ | I've got a hand-me-down '98 lexus ES-300 | 14:08 |
| bkero | whoo supra | 14:09 |
| bkero | but automatic :( | 14:09 |
| nmz787 | http://www.cardekho.com/specs/Tata_Indigo/Tata_Indigo_LS-specification.htm | 14:09 |
| nmz787 | thats what she has, disc in front, drum rear | 14:09 |
| _F7_ | No TDI, my roomate wants to get ambitious and build an XR-3 though so I'll be filling my vehicle hacking quota | 14:09 |
| nmz787 | cool | 14:10 |
| * bkero has been doing wastegate surgery on his Genesis Coupe. Just finished turboback exhaust on a '12 Golf TDI | 14:10 | |
| nmz787 | havent heard of the XR3 | 14:10 |
| _F7_ | It's a scratch-build car | 14:10 |
| bkero | Reminds me of an XR4 | 14:10 |
| bkero | (ti) | 14:10 |
| _F7_ | just a moment | 14:10 |
| nmz787 | i rode around in a lotus kit car a few years back | 14:10 |
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| nmz787 | had a 900 or 1200cc bike engine... was close as hell to the ground, and man, it could take turns like no other | 14:11 |
| _F7_ | http://www.rqriley.com/xr3.htm | 14:11 |
| _F7_ | The hackerspace has a CNC plasma cutter and a heliarc machine, so most of the tough part is done. | 14:12 |
| nmz787 | pretty sweet, a bit like a delorean | 14:12 |
| nmz787 | wonder how the power is | 14:12 |
| _F7_ | really good | 14:12 |
| _F7_ | We're planning to leave off the electric side | 14:13 |
| _F7_ | It's just expense and weight | 14:13 |
| nmz787 | 2 seater or just 1 | 14:14 |
| nmz787 | ? | 14:14 |
| nmz787 | ahh 2 | 14:16 |
| nmz787 | hmm, the engine at generator use is only ~20 hp.... | 14:18 |
| bkero | 1480lb, damn that's heavy | 14:18 |
| nmz787 | might be a little more fun to try and throw a TDI in there, and use the electric rear for highway cruising | 14:18 |
| nmz787 | i thought the future was going toward series hybrids | 14:20 |
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| _F7_ | oh, we're leaving the electric off for a sub 1000 lb | 14:21 |
| bkero | TDI engine is a lot huger and heavier | 14:23 |
| bkero | B&S makes some powerful light generators, I've used those in conversion cars I've done. | 14:23 |
| bkero | 8" Advanced DC motor, Sevcon Millipak controller, Zivian charger | 14:24 |
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| jrayhawk | 1480 is about the weight of old Lotuses, and those only have the one measly battery! | 14:25 |
| bkero | My electric mk i MR2 ended up being around 1200lb and that used a lot of recycled EV1 batteries and the original transmission | 14:27 |
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| jrayhawk | The MkI weighs about 2400 pounds and I am reasonably sure that the engine and transmission are not half of that weight. | 14:28 |
| katsmeow-afk | my electric VW Beatle was a series wound bolted to the oem tranny | 14:28 |
| jrayhawk | or maybe it's 2300 | 14:28 |
| bkero | jrayhawk: they're 2200-2300 with fluids. engine is about 250lb, transmission is about 175lb, everything else in the engine bay is over 100lb too | 14:30 |
| nmz787 | for a while i wanted to design an all-weather velo fairing for my 250 ninja | 14:30 |
| bkero | not to mention the ridiculously heavy fuel tank in the center channel of the car | 14:30 |
| bkero | radiator, heater core, and ac heat exchanger are heavy too | 14:31 |
| bkero | I'm actually building an electric bicycle now. 750W brushed DC motor, eBay special ghetto PWM chopper controller, twist-grip throttle, golf cart 2x10A 36V SLA gel-cel battery | 14:32 |
| bkero | fantastic stuff | 14:32 |
| nmz787 | nice | 14:34 |
| nmz787 | bbl, class | 14:34 |
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| kanzure | hrm i need more chemistry buddies in here | 14:40 |
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| kanzure | ENKI-][: hey | 15:59 |
| ENKI-][ | hi | 15:59 |
| kanzure | what's up? | 15:59 |
| ENKI-][ | i couldn't remember the name of the channel, hence the whois ;-) | 15:59 |
| ENKI-][ | i just ordered an EEG machine for BCI | 15:59 |
| ENKI-][ | one of the cheapo ones intended for video games... the NIA, the one with the neurosky chip | 16:00 |
| ENKI-][ | any suggestion on how to use it to start off with, once it arrives? | 16:00 |
| kanzure | ENKI-][: openvibe | 16:12 |
| kanzure | also, you'll probably want to trash it | 16:12 |
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| ENKI-][ | i'll want to trash it? | 16:14 |
| delinquentme | balls! | 16:15 |
| delinquentme | are there any EEs present? | 16:15 |
| delinquentme | I'm looking for examples functions of HDLs | 16:16 |
| ENKI-][ | i probably won't need openvibe, on account of having already modified someone's NIA interfacing code. | 16:16 |
| ENKI-][ | example functions in an HDL, delinquentme? like VHDL code? | 16:16 |
| delinquentme | Hardware description languages | 16:17 |
| delinquentme | i saw VHDL mentioned | 16:17 |
| ENKI-][ | there's VHDL, which is ada, and verilog, which is pascal | 16:18 |
| delinquentme | I guess when i first heard about it I thought it was a replacement for passive components | 16:19 |
| delinquentme | bu effectively it allows you to reprogram what happens within the chip | 16:19 |
| delinquentme | also : http://www.wired.com/wiredenterprise/2012/04/nicira/ | 16:20 |
| ENKI-][ | delinquentme: that's not at all accurate. an HDL is a high level language a subset of which is compiled into a format that represents components and their interconnections. this lower level form is used occasionally in the fabrication of ICs (though if I recall there's typically layout work done by bald ape wetware), but it can be simulated directly in slower than realtime by dedicated hardware such as | 16:26 |
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| ENKI-][ | FPGAs and PLDs, which have the ability to programatically modify interconnections between existing components in such a way to emulate hardware in hardware flexibly. | 16:26 |
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| ENKI-][ | you cannot reprogram what happens inside a chip unless it is an FPGA, and FPGAs are limited in important ways. usually, you use them to debug something you eventually want on a real dedicated chip | 16:27 |
| delinquentme | what I interpreted it as was I could take this: http://dlnmh9ip6v2uc.cloudfront.net/tutorialimages/SPOT/SPOT-Connect-Teardown-5-M.jpg and make it into this: http://www.schmalzhaus.com/EasyDriver/EasyDriver_v42/EasyDriverV42_Top.PNG | 16:28 |
| delinquentme | in software | 16:28 |
| ENKI-][ | the big two HDLs are VHDL and verilog, and they are both horrible crufty thirty year old hacks. if you get an EE degree you'll be required to learn them, but in attempting to learn them on my own i've discovered that they are more difficult to pick up than intercal ;-) | 16:29 |
| ENKI-][ | you can't. | 16:29 |
| ENKI-][ | if you think you can do that sort of thing, you won't be able to pick up VHDL without learning a good bit of EE first ;-) | 16:30 |
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| ENKI-][ | there's something called myhdl that translates a small subset of python into a small subset of (if i recall) verilog. but, if you want to use an HDL you'll need an FPGA. | 16:31 |
| delinquentme | was hoping for awesome | 16:31 |
| delinquentme | got subawesome | 16:31 |
| ENKI-][ | it gets worse. you haven't even seen vhdl code yet ;-) | 16:31 |
| ENKI-][ | don't let me discourage you from learning vhdl. just, don't expect magic rearrangement of logic elements in an IC, or even to have an easy time doing anything with an FPGA | 16:32 |
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| ENKI-][ | kanzure: i dropped a hundred bucks on it. for a tightwad like me, that's a lot. i won't want to discard it, even if its sensitivity is mediocre compared to professional machines at ten times the price. | 16:34 |
| kanzure | ENKI-][: no i'd probably also ask you to throw away your professional machine :P | 16:36 |
| kanzure | oh well. you might get some interesting correlations, maybe. | 16:36 |
| kanzure | also: vhdl is pretty fun | 16:36 |
| ENKI-][ | i'm not quite masochistic enough for vhdl. i'll stick to osdev, stl, and befunge ;-) | 16:38 |
| ENKI-][ | kanzure: my soldering skills are not nearly good enough for me to attach a home-made openeeg system to my head ;-) | 16:39 |
| ENKI-][ | the last time i soldered something, i blew out a thirty five dollar LCD | 16:39 |
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| delinquentme | The Wellcome Trust, a medical charity that pumps more than £600m ($950m) a year into research, already requires open access within six months of publication, but the compliance rate is only 55%. The charity says it will “get tough” on scientists who publish in journals that restrict access, | 16:47 |
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| kanzure | delinquentme: hah | 16:48 |
| delinquentme | i know cyincism | 16:48 |
| delinquentme | but they're interested | 16:49 |
| delinquentme | which is why the steal it from them via the channel that USES it is intriguing | 16:49 |
| kanzure | please rephrase | 16:49 |
| delinquentme | but is so far from monetization | 16:49 |
| delinquentme | publishers need researchers to want to read their papers in order to thrive | 16:50 |
| delinquentme | thus utilizing the lifeline which publishers live off of | 16:50 |
| delinquentme | as the process for stealing / borrowing / whatever | 16:50 |
| delinquentme | is so beautiful | 16:50 |
| kanzure | nope actually they don't care if anyone reads it. they care if anyone pays for it. | 16:51 |
| delinquentme | who pays for it | 16:51 |
| kanzure | that's why they bundle 1000s of journals together for libraries to spend millions on | 16:51 |
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| -!- fenn_ is now known as fenn | 16:52 | |
| kanzure | fenn: howdy howdy | 16:53 |
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| AdrianG | hi | 16:58 |
| kanzure | hello | 16:59 |
| kanzure | fenn: have you received the ebay items | 16:59 |
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| fenn | the stepper thingies are here | 17:02 |
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| kanzure | fenn: i haven't ordered the other material | 17:05 |
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| delinquentme | fenn, | 17:10 |
| delinquentme | whut is yar liquid handler | 17:11 |
| delinquentme | tell me | 17:11 |
| delinquentme | prez | 17:11 |
| delinquentme | better yet tell me you're a wicked smart EE | 17:11 |
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| fenn | delinquentme: i hate you, go away | 17:13 |
| delinquentme | haha yes everyone does | 17:14 |
| delinquentme | but thats part of what I'm paid to be here | 17:14 |
| fenn | it's not my design, basically i want to copy what ilan moyer did with http://web.mit.edu/imoyer/www/portfolio/fabmate/index.html | 17:16 |
| fenn | or the ultimaker | 17:16 |
| fenn | same idea really | 17:16 |
| fenn | i have no idea why you need so many things moving around | 17:17 |
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| delinquentme | ohhh | 17:17 |
| delinquentme | wait are you making a liquid handler? | 17:18 |
| delinquentme | that seems like a 3d printer | 17:18 |
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| fenn | i'm replacing an undergrad with a pipettor | 17:19 |
| fenn | anyway the motivation for this project has disappeared | 17:20 |
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| kanzure | fenn: aw? | 17:23 |
| kanzure | what was the motivation | 17:23 |
| fenn | anselm was whining about doing repetitive work | 17:24 |
| fenn | doing gene assembly for fish optogenetics | 17:25 |
| kanzure | that's some tremendous customer service (n=1 complaining => product) | 17:25 |
| fenn | well i'm sure there are lots of people out there who need such a machine, i just don't know them (or i dont know that i know them at least) | 17:26 |
| kanzure | it's very easy to find angry/disgruntled molecular biology nerds on the interwebs | 17:26 |
| kanzure | they're just all broke or something | 17:26 |
| fenn | anyway it was something i had in mind since i was an undergrad doing repetitive manual pipetting | 17:26 |
| fenn | i'm sure they can afford a ~$500 machine | 17:26 |
| kanzure | do you want to play with that $800 synthesizer from ebay? it had manuals and discs and cords | 17:27 |
| fenn | ugh | 17:27 |
| fenn | link? | 17:27 |
| kanzure | just asking :( | 17:27 |
| kanzure | urhm brb | 17:27 |
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| kanzure | ok sorry. phone call. and also deploying to a ew staging servers. happy with me right now. | 17:29 |
| kanzure | *few | 17:29 |
| delinquentme | fenn so you're not really into it anymore eh? | 17:29 |
| fenn | delinquentme: basically, i don't want to hold your hand through every step of the process | 17:30 |
| delinquentme | fenn, interesting | 17:31 |
| delinquentme | how old are you | 17:31 |
| delinquentme | where do you live and are you in college? | 17:31 |
| fenn | i'm a 17 year old girl and i live in fiji | 17:32 |
| delinquentme | wish you the best with that | 17:33 |
| delinquentme | "largest self propelled object ever made " http://i.imgur.com/jkGHf.jpg | 17:34 |
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| kanzure | fenn: http://www.ebay.com/itm/Millipore-MilliGen-Cyclone-Plus-DNA-Synthesizer-8400-/130530382334?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item1e643791fe#ht_653wt_1274 | 17:36 |
| fenn | o_O it has a CRT | 17:38 |
| fenn | what is this, an apple II? | 17:39 |
| kanzure | it's probably from the 80s | 17:40 |
| fenn | i didnt realize dna synthesizers existed back then | 17:40 |
| kanzure | all $100k+ synthesizers have huge maintenance contracts and seem to be repaired over the years by the original manufacturer (on-site) | 17:40 |
| kanzure | yes i'm pretty sure 100% of the synthesizers were built in the 80s | 17:40 |
| kanzure | or very close to 100% | 17:40 |
| fenn | weird | 17:40 |
| kanzure | i should write down what i know about the history of synthesizers | 17:41 |
| kanzure | vega biotechnologies did the first few peptide synthesizers and oligo synthesizers | 17:41 |
| kanzure | then applied bio in 1981 started releasing their synthesizers and sequencers | 17:41 |
| kanzure | http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Applied_Biosystems | 17:42 |
| diginet | fenn, are you really a 17 year old girl in fiji? | 17:42 |
| kanzure | 1983- "The company released its second commercial instrument, the Model 380A DNA Synthesizer, which made oligonucleotides, short DNA strands, for polymerase chain reaction (PCR), DNA sequencing, and gene identification. The two sequencer and synthesizer products allowed molecular biologists to clone genes by building oligonucleotides with the desired protein's DNA sequence.[1]" | 17:43 |
| fenn | wow i also didnt realize foster city existed in the 80's | 17:43 |
| fenn | PCR was "developed in 1983" | 17:44 |
| diginet | my sarcasm detector doesn't work very well, but that's cool if you are? | 17:44 |
| fenn | that's some fast product development | 17:44 |
| kanzure | everyone was itching for dna synthesis | 17:44 |
| kanzure | it was 'too complex' for biologists to perform until some chemistries in the 70s and even then it was wonky | 17:45 |
| kanzure | read about vega here http://www.trilinkbiotech.com/tech/oligo_history.pdf | 17:45 |
| delinquentme | http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UWl6Pm2klPU&feature=youtu.be | 17:46 |
| delinquentme | jason silva .. cool dude | 17:47 |
| delinquentme | hes you know | 17:49 |
| delinquentme | not a nay saying bitch | 17:49 |
| diginet | who is a nay saying bitch? | 17:49 |
| diginet | (i.e. are you referring to someone in particular?) | 17:49 |
| Mariu | yeah, good question | 17:50 |
| Mariu | ^^ | 17:50 |
| Mariu | let's ID the enemy | 17:50 |
| diginet | ? | 17:50 |
| fenn | paul ehrlich is representative | 17:52 |
| diginet | so I'm reevaluating my choice of duckweed for protein expression, namely because there is little information on working with it in the literature. Tobacco seems to be the most talked about, but I'm not sure if it would be too hard to grow or what | 17:53 |
| diginet | err, not too hard to grow, if the yields would be too low | 17:53 |
| fenn | silva sure moves his hands around a lot | 17:54 |
| kanzure | fenn: so they already had peptide synthesizers and oligo synthesizers before the 80s | 17:54 |
| kanzure | although it was "some weird chemistry" | 17:54 |
| kanzure | diphosphates instead of triphosphates? what what | 17:55 |
| delinquentme | http://www.genomics.agilent.com/CollectionOverview.aspx?PageType=Application&SubPageType=ApplicationOverview&PageID=275 << microfluidics based | 17:55 |
| fenn | hold on, let me read that paper | 17:56 |
| kanzure | another interesting document is the 1984 nobel prize lecture about solid phase synthesis in general | 17:58 |
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| kanzure | http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/DNA/Nobel%20lecture%20-%20Solid%20phase%20synthesis%20-%201984%20-%20Merrifield.pdf | 17:58 |
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| fenn | nice video; skip to 2:00 though, don't really need the introduction | 18:08 |
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| delinquentme | fenn, dont buy into any of it | 18:13 |
| delinquentme | its all crap | 18:13 |
| delinquentme | pipe dreams | 18:13 |
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| diginet | delinquentme, what on earth are you even talking about? | 18:26 |
| delinquentme | fenn being a little rape victim | 18:30 |
| AdrianG | is experimentation on humans with drugs viewed favourably upon in this chat? | 18:30 |
| delinquentme | whining about something | 18:30 |
| delinquentme | AdrianG, true! | 18:30 |
| ENKI-][ | adriang: depends on the humans in question. | 18:31 |
| AdrianG | I experiment on myself only. | 18:31 |
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| ENKI-][ | i don't think you'll get a lot of flak for that, unless you also implant magnets into your fingers using a pocket knife and vodka :P | 18:32 |
| AdrianG | hey. that was my idea. | 18:32 |
| ENKI-][ | i'm amused by the inordinate amount of lepht hate in here, but meh | 18:33 |
| kanzure | gah how do we not have videos of a 1984 nobel prize lecture | 18:33 |
| kanzure | http://www.nobelprize.org/nobel_prizes/chemistry/video_lectures.html | 18:33 |
| kanzure | only going back to 1999? | 18:33 |
| AdrianG | we should sue them. | 18:35 |
| AdrianG | and force them to hand them over in the discovery process. | 18:35 |
| AdrianG | ENKI-][: arent u from some aspie channels? | 18:36 |
| ENKI-][ | yes. | 18:36 |
| kanzure | we're pretty much all from some aspie channel | 18:36 |
| ENKI-][ | i am from all sorts of channels. | 18:36 |
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| Mariu | :p | 18:38 |
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| nmz787 | http://www.bit-tech.net/hardware/pcs/2012/04/16/raspberry-pi-review/1 | 18:44 |
| kanzure | nmz787: can you find me a video of the 1984 nobel lecture in chemistry | 18:45 |
| kanzure | merrifield's | 18:46 |
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| nmz787 | i can try | 18:59 |
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| nmz787 | video, audio, or document? | 18:59 |
| nmz787 | http://www.nobelprize.org/nobel_prizes/chemistry/laureates/1984/merrifield-lecture.pdf | 19:00 |
| nmz787 | oh | 19:00 |
| nmz787 | nevermind, you said video | 19:00 |
| nmz787 | duh | 19:00 |
| kanzure | audio would be ok | 19:01 |
| kanzure | i've seen the pdf before but i'm really curious why there's no video | 19:02 |
| nmz787 | are they recorded? | 19:02 |
| JayDugger | Now that video cost so little, sure. | 19:04 |
| JayDugger | Friedman's acceptance speech got filmed. | 19:04 |
| JayDugger | Lectures--I don't know. | 19:05 |
| kanzure | nmz787: well they posted videos back to 1999 | 19:05 |
| kanzure | but 1999 was >50 years after television was a generally known thing | 19:06 |
| JayDugger | Why doesn't the transcript suffice? | 19:08 |
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| kanzure | JayDugger: a transcript doesn't explain why audio doesn't exist.. | 19:09 |
| JayDugger | I see your point, but why care? | 19:09 |
| nmz787 | i'm not coming up with anything | 19:11 |
| nmz787 | found a page with some older videos on blogger, posted a message to the guy | 19:11 |
| kanzure | if the nobel prize is supposed to be one of the greatest awards to scientific achievement then i would suspect they would be recorded | 19:11 |
| kanzure | JayDugger: that's all^ | 19:12 |
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| kanzure | beep boop | 20:30 |
| kristianpaul | baap? | 20:36 |
| kanzure | hi kristianpaul | 20:38 |
| kristianpaul | hiho | 20:42 |
| _F7_ | beep boop | 20:52 |
| kanzure | _F7_: are you a pokemon master :p | 20:53 |
| Mariu | Dawn looks cute | 20:54 |
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| fenn | so.. implicitcad | 22:17 |
| fenn | also, lemoncurry | 22:18 |
| kanzure | and picoprojectors | 22:18 |
| kanzure | "picoliter droplet projectors: catapulting across the future vol. 1" | 22:18 |
| fenn | apparently uv cure resin is $49/l and can be cured with a standard projector | 22:18 |
| kanzure | we should probably try this at least once :/ | 22:18 |
| fenn | it sure beats reprap on the resolution front | 22:19 |
| fenn | i guess they sell cmyk resins because you can use it in an inkjet with a bulk UV cure step | 22:21 |
| fenn | instead of photo-cure | 22:21 |
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| fenn | a programmatic cad system really lends itself to procedural geometry creation such as is needed for changing material properties with shape variation | 22:26 |
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| fenn | termite mounts have all sorts of interesting properties due to the meso structure | 22:26 |
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| fenn | hah i just made that up, but "functional mesostructure" seems to be the right keyword | 22:27 |
| kanzure | oh god "I agree, writing Java without powerful refactoring tools is a bore--that's why it's great to use Eclipse's "Generate Getters and Setters based on Fields" refactoring tool." | 22:29 |
| fenn | why are you reading that? get back to work | 22:30 |
| fenn | ;P | 22:30 |
| kanzure | waiting for this queue of 1,500,000 tasks to finish processing (140 workers!) | 22:31 |
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| kanzure | "In fact, Dragon has so much interior volume, that we could place an entire three-person Russian Soyuz capsule descent module inside Dragon’s pressure vessel." | 22:36 |
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| --- Log closed Tue Apr 17 00:00:39 2012 | ||
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