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| Utopiah | bit old (1996) http://www.mech.kuleuven.be/goa/ | 03:51 |
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| JayDugger | Good morning, everyone. | 06:37 |
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| kanzure | "Newspapers aren't stupid, they're just .. fraught with unionized contracts that make any change insanely difficult (some contracts stipulate that the editors can only work in specific versions of InDesign, for example)" | 07:16 |
| kanzure | http://ariya.ofilabs.com/2012/03/pure-headless-phantomjs-no-x11-or-xvfb.htmlg | 07:23 |
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| kanzure | ParahSailin: i uh.. totally forgot | 07:43 |
| kanzure | did you come by and get it? | 07:43 |
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| * ybit high fives kanzure and patts fenn on the hiny | 08:11 | |
| ybit | morning fellas | 08:11 |
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| delinquentme | OIC this is one of thoseeee online chat rooms | 08:19 |
| Utopiah | http://autopatcher.org | 08:21 |
| kanzure | "Autopatcher.org: In Vivo Robotics, for Automatic Recording of Neurons in the Live Brain" | 08:22 |
| kanzure | alright the | 08:22 |
| kanzure | *then | 08:22 |
| kanzure | "Kodandaramaiah et al.," well that's a mouthful | 08:22 |
| kanzure | ko danda rama riah? | 08:22 |
| kanzure | i feel like i've just summoned a spirit and should be cautious for the rest of the day | 08:23 |
| kanzure | Utopiah: thanks | 08:23 |
| kanzure | eww it's in labview http://autopatcher.org/Autopatcher_Labview_Software%20v1.0.llb | 08:24 |
| JayDugger | You summoned up a foul spirit whose secret name can be spoken only in Labview. | 08:24 |
| JayDugger | Now, let's see you dismiss it. | 08:25 |
| Vicarious | hi | 08:25 |
| JayDugger | Good morning. | 08:25 |
| Vicarious | 'morning | 08:26 |
| kanzure | JayDugger: yiu mo gwai gwai fai di zao? | 08:26 |
| JayDugger | That's a language I don't read. | 08:27 |
| ybit | delinquentme: just imagine i'm this guy: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hewedqvSWaI | 08:27 |
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| ybit | ^5 augur | 08:27 |
| augur | hello ybit | 08:28 |
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| JayDugger | I remain fairly fluent in Irken, though. | 08:30 |
| ybit | augur: through teaching for the semester? | 08:30 |
| ybit | hi JayDugger | 08:31 |
| ybit | JayDugger: what do you do for your day job? | 08:31 |
| kanzure | his day job is sleeping | 08:31 |
| kanzure | and/or taking care of the misses | 08:31 |
| ybit | well then | 08:32 |
| ybit | not what i expected :) | 08:32 |
| kanzure | it's a tough job but he does it well? | 08:32 |
| augur | ybit: no :( | 08:33 |
| JayDugger | Mostly cat sitting. | 08:33 |
| ybit | if you want more cats to sit on... i can assist you | 08:33 |
| JayDugger | No thanks. Five's my limit. | 08:33 |
| ybit | i know a gal... just saying | 08:33 |
| JayDugger | I already suffer from pincushionitis. | 08:33 |
| ybit | oh, JayDugger, i've been meaning to ask, would it be trouble to setup znc on this server? | 08:36 |
| ybit | i'd like to use konversation.. | 08:36 |
| ybit | ...or i could resort to weechat | 08:36 |
| JayDugger | I'm afraid I don't understand. I don't administer this server. | 08:36 |
| ybit | whoops | 08:36 |
| ybit | jrayhawk ^ | 08:36 |
| kanzure | the difference is that jrayhawk likes horses | 08:37 |
| kanzure | JayDugger prefers cats | 08:37 |
| JayDugger | No worries. If you make no worse mistake today, you got off easy. | 08:37 |
| JayDugger | I like horses better than walking, but much less than automobiles. | 08:37 |
| kanzure | ybit: btw.. i can also install things. what is znc? | 08:38 |
| ybit | and irc bouncer | 08:38 |
| ybit | an | 08:38 |
| ybit | http://wiki.znc.in/ZNC | 08:38 |
| kanzure | ybit: i don't get it. how is this superior to screen or tmux? | 08:46 |
| delinquentme | ybit, nedz that van | 08:47 |
| delinquentme | anyone know the etymology of atomicity | 08:48 |
| delinquentme | i mean YES atom .. but what specifically about an atom is the " all or nothing " concept? | 08:48 |
| ybit | kanzure: it allows me to connect with a graphical client which allows for nice integration on the desktop | 08:51 |
| ybit | ...i won't be missing PMs and highlights in windows beyond 119 | 08:51 |
| ybit | win 100 right now | 08:51 |
| kanzure | znc doesn't look like it maintains state except your joins | 08:52 |
| ybit | it has detaching | 08:54 |
| ybit | "ZNC will remain connected to IRC even while you are offline. You can then reattach later and catch up with what happened while you were gone, and your nick (and operator status) will have been kept for you. " | 08:54 |
| ybit | Playback Buffers Stay up-to-date with what happened and when it happened while you were detached, timestamps are also printed and can be manually configured. | 08:54 |
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| archels | re: autopatcher | 09:34 |
| archels | "the development and use of robots to analyze the living brain in a high-throughput, high-fidelity fashion." | 09:34 |
| archels | I totally read that as some sort of embodiment thing. :P | 09:35 |
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| kanzure | hack hack hack | 12:55 |
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| * Mokbortolan_ applies for an API license. | 13:00 | |
| kanzure | Mokbortolan_: :/ | 13:01 |
| kanzure | what's the api? | 13:01 |
| Mokbortolan_ | Java | 13:03 |
| Mokbortolan_ | referring to the oracle/google case | 13:04 |
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| kanzure | Mokbortolan_: you could also just.. not use java | 13:13 |
| * Mokbortolan_ reads more and calms down. | 13:14 | |
| Mokbortolan_ | Well, the ruling wouldn't affect just java | 13:14 |
| Mokbortolan_ | the judge still has to rule on whether or not APIs are copywritable | 13:14 |
| Mokbortolan_ | that ruling directly relates to oracle vs. google, but it also relates to every other "copywritable API" | 13:15 |
| Mokbortolan_ | though, I'm not entirely sure of the scope of such a decision | 13:15 |
| kanzure | the judge might yet choose to throw out the case because of schwartz's blog | 13:20 |
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| Mokbortolan_ | ugh | 13:52 |
| Mokbortolan_ | I can see why, he left the apostrophe out of we're | 13:52 |
| Mokbortolan_ | oh, well, it's ambiguous | 13:53 |
| roksprok | does anyone know if neuromatic devices is legit? | 13:53 |
| roksprok | i ask because they have no names, just stock photos | 13:53 |
| roksprok | and their news is just publications by other people | 13:54 |
| roksprok | who, if autopatcher.org is to be believed, have no affiliation with them | 13:54 |
| roksprok | also their address looks very 'house-ish' on google maps | 13:56 |
| roksprok | ok it is deffinantly a house | 13:57 |
| roksprok | a 3 bedroom house to be exact, according to http://www.zillow.com/homedetails/1270-Kendrick-Rd-NE-Atlanta-GA-30319/14558858_zpid/ | 13:57 |
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| kanzure | roksprok: heh i see you emailed randal | 14:58 |
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| kanzure | roksprok: maybe we should set up a public netmorph-dev goup | 15:47 |
| kanzure | *group | 15:47 |
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| roksprok | kanzure: yea...did he forward you the email I had sent? That was basically all I asked for...looks like I was the one that finally got him so annoyed he's like 'here talk to these guys, not me!' | 16:55 |
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| kanzure | roksprok: heh so he's telling you to talk to me? that's humorous | 17:14 |
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| delinquentme | OMG <# | 18:15 |
| delinquentme | <3 ! | 18:15 |
| delinquentme | hey do we have anyone who can tweak PCB designs? | 18:18 |
| delinquentme | I think they're eagle files? | 18:18 |
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| roksprok | delinquentme: eagle has a free version, and you can drag stuff around in it | 19:10 |
| roksprok | kanzure recommended an open-source alternative but i forget what it was, so maybe he can tell you | 19:10 |
| kanzure | kicad? geda? | 19:10 |
| roksprok | probably geda | 19:15 |
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| roksprok | would it be trivial to move networks developed in netmorph to neuron and actually run simulations with them? | 19:16 |
| kanzure | roksprok: i wrote an email to randal recently outlining that procedure (for nootropics simulations) | 19:18 |
| roksprok | so that means it is pretty trivial? or at least doable reliably and repeatably? | 19:18 |
| kanzure | yes.. todd and matt want to do it for testing their brain slice recognition software | 19:19 |
| roksprok | cool | 19:20 |
| roksprok | is that related to the nootropics sims or separate | 19:20 |
| kanzure | todd/matt run 3scan.com | 19:21 |
| roksprok | yea i recognized todd's name | 19:21 |
| kanzure | so they are scanning in brain tissue then running the tissue through an image recognition application to determine neuron boundaries and features | 19:21 |
| kanzure | so as you can imagine they need to be sure that their reconstructed networks are the same as whatever the input was | 19:21 |
| kanzure | one way to do this is to generate somewhat realistic morphologies in netmorph and then generate images (while keeping the information about what the network actually is) | 19:21 |
| kanzure | then you can test the software to determine whether or not it poops out a network that matches the original | 19:22 |
| JayDugger | What a choice of verb! | 19:22 |
| JayDugger | Test #1: Poop failed. | 19:22 |
| roksprok | does 3scan want to simulate networks? i thought they were just connectomics | 19:22 |
| kanzure | i got my phd in kindergarten | 19:22 |
| JayDugger | Poop is a funny word. | 19:23 |
| kanzure | roksprok: they are just as transhumanist as you and me | 19:23 |
| kanzure | todd helped write the whole brain emulation roadmap | 19:23 |
| roksprok | poop is icky and a good reason to upload yourself | 19:23 |
| kanzure | and/or at least participated in the WBE workshop thing at one of the society of neuroscience events a few years ago | 19:23 |
| JayDugger | Did you ever read Egan's Diaspora? | 19:23 |
| JayDugger | He compares music to urination in a mental dialogue of one of his fictional uploads. | 19:24 |
| kanzure | yes first when i was 11 then when i was 19.. second time around i hated it? | 19:24 |
| JayDugger | I like Egan a little better now that he finished his political kick and writes Hal Clement-style. | 19:24 |
| roksprok | cool...i guess 3scan is them trying to bash away at it? | 19:24 |
| kanzure | roksprok: right now their priority is definitely connectomics-related and "getting people to use this microscope" | 19:25 |
| kanzure | afaik. | 19:25 |
| roksprok | is theirs compeletly different from the ATLUM that i think ken hayworth is doing? | 19:25 |
| roksprok | also re:nootropics wouldn't it be better to just culture neurons? and skip the potentially buggy simulations | 19:26 |
| kanzure | todd's is a diamond-knife edge scanning microscope.. i'm p. sure atlum is different, but they know ken pretty well so whatever | 19:27 |
| kanzure | roksprok: neuron cultures are notoriously difficult to work with, and it takes time to grow things | 19:27 |
| kanzure | i think it is easier to look at the response curves already published in the literature | 19:27 |
| kanzure | there's lots of documentation about channel resposnes to different chemicals | 19:27 |
| kanzure | channelpedia is literally just some postdoccs reading the literature and adding the data into a standard format in a wiki | 19:28 |
| kanzure | *postdocs | 19:28 |
| kanzure | but it doesn't contain information about 'altered response' which would be a requisite for simulating "neuronal networks when under the influence of some nootropic" | 19:28 |
| kanzure | but furthermore: knowing the effects of a nootropic on a small neural network isn't immediately helpful. it would definitely take some time to figure out which pathways demonstrate which interesting responses to nootropics in the brain, and then which simulations match or model that behavior. | 19:30 |
| roksprok | is that because they just haven't typed it in or because it doesn't exist | 19:30 |
| kanzure | because they haven't typed it in | 19:30 |
| kanzure | their database is channelpedia not nootropicdb or whatever the awful name would be | 19:30 |
| kanzure | well i guess it wouldn't be called nootropicdb.. more like "somewhat-modulated-receptor pedia" | 19:31 |
| roksprok | this is probably a dumb question but wouldn't a good nootropic be a 'we'll know it when we see it' type of thing? | 19:32 |
| kanzure | my definition of 'minimal viable nootropic' is somewhat extreme.. it's a nootropic that allows its user to build a better nootropic | 19:32 |
| kanzure | s/minimal/minimum not sure about the grammar | 19:32 |
| kanzure | so anyway.. yes that's why "oh look this small network has a different training behavior!" is not immediately useful | 19:33 |
| kanzure | nootropics don't just target some single plastic network in your prefrontal cortex (or something) | 19:33 |
| kanzure | i suppose you would want to more specifically study the hypothesis that "if you stimulate or control a particular subregion of the brain, you can positively impact measured performance on various tests" | 19:35 |
| roksprok | so then wouldn't the best way to do it just be eat some and see if you can design a better nootropic? | 19:35 |
| kanzure | computational search is far more efficient than you eating a nootropic a day for the rest of your life | 19:35 |
| kanzure | *a new nootropic a day | 19:35 |
| roksprok | it seems doing that with drugs is a step backwards | 19:35 |
| JayDugger | Ah...wouldn't you like to know the LD50 first? | 19:36 |
| roksprok | well if you are designing new molecules you don't have channel data for them, and if you aren't you already have the LD50 | 19:36 |
| kanzure | i think a specific nootropic search is more useful than randomly bumping around in search space | 19:36 |
| kanzure | no you would be using existing channel data to start with | 19:37 |
| kanzure | see.. the result of a nootropic isn't "my GABA receptors are better!" necessarily.. it's the impact it has on your neural network | 19:37 |
| kanzure | so what's the exact changes that are occuring, and can the neural networks be coerced to perform in the certain measuredly-performance-improving ways that we are interested in? | 19:38 |
| kanzure | in some cases the answer might be no :) like "no you can't do simultaneous sparse coding in the human auditory cortex from 1024 sound sources" | 19:39 |
| kanzure | once you know what sort of changes you're looking for.. you can make a more specific search for compounds that would induce similar results | 19:39 |
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| kanzure | the exact firing changes of a cortical minicolumn under the influence of dextroamphetamine isn't known (or it might be known by markram's group but they haven't published anything?) | 19:40 |
| roksprok | is neuronal simulation that good? like it seems if you want to get above "my GABA receptors are better" or "this small network has a different training behavior" you'd have to use a supercomputer | 19:40 |
| kanzure | once you know what you are generally looking for you can do a depth-first or breadth-first exhaustive search for things that would cause similar or more extreme versions of the same influence | 19:40 |
| kanzure | (or you can possibly determine emperically whether or not the effect can be enhanced) | 19:40 |
| kanzure | roksprok: i think you can do a lot with that level of simulation | 19:41 |
| kanzure | fenn: you around? :/ | 19:41 |
| roksprok | would you then move into a protein design mode? I feel like if there was a minimal viable nootropic it would have already been discovered | 19:44 |
| kanzure | roksprok: all that i am saying is that you can use these types of simulations to (1) model what's going on with "known" "nootropics", and (2) see what else can produce similar results, and (3) possibly implement learning algorithms that can more efficiently build nootropics | 19:44 |
| kanzure | protein design is one possibility but there's a large backlog of pre-existing nootropics that need to be taken into account | 19:44 |
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| kanzure | hi klafka.. we're ranting about simulations for nootropics testing http://gnusha.org/logs/2012-05-07.log | 19:45 |
| roksprok | stupid question #2: is step 3 humans under the influence of the just-discovered nootropics? or in the simulated neural network you just tested the nootropics on? | 19:46 |
| brownies | eh? isn't it the case that the mechanisms of action for many "good" nootropics are not precisely known? | 19:47 |
| kanzure | brownies: true! but we also have lots of papers with backlogs of data about 'modulated receptors' and shit | 19:47 |
| kanzure | brownies: adderall xr is one that has a disputed or unknown mechanism of action -_- | 19:47 |
| brownies | many of the common ones are in that disputed/unknown/vaguely-known category | 19:48 |
| kanzure | roksprok: no #3 was just a learning algorithm for (A) protein design feeding into (B) simulations that (C) may eventually get turned into drugs for human testing | 19:48 |
| kanzure | right now there's no specific place to look up a list of "Small regions of the brain that should be chemically enhanced to increase performance on the Stroop test" or anything like that | 19:48 |
| brownies | ok, so your claim is that, since we know *some* of the mechanisms of action, we should search for new particles that trigger such mechanisms similarly, then build those particles? | 19:48 |
| brownies | "search" via running imperfect simulations, i mean | 19:49 |
| kanzure | my claim is that we should simulate the current known mechanisms of action and compare the resulting neural behavior to known neural behavior | 19:49 |
| brownies | but what would that achieve? | 19:49 |
| kanzure | we can replace other mechanisms of action and see how that impacts neural behavior | 19:49 |
| brownies | other than perhaps showing the % importance of the mechanisms of action that we know, compared to the ones we don't know | 19:50 |
| brownies | assuming that there are... eigenmechanisms of action -_- | 19:50 |
| kanzure | s/replace/insert | 19:50 |
| brownies | hmm | 19:50 |
| kanzure | yes that's right.. it's probably the case that the performance of certain neural networks can only "go so far" - like the limits of performance of a system | 19:50 |
| kanzure | this conversation is severely hampered by my lack of examples of *specific* neural networks under the influence of nootropics producing *specific* measured results | 19:51 |
| klafka | because they don't exist | 19:51 |
| klafka | which is pretty precisely the poblem | 19:52 |
| klafka | *problem | 19:52 |
| brownies | one assumes that the FDA studies ran MRIs and whatnot | 19:52 |
| brownies | which is not terribly precise, but at least it's something. | 19:52 |
| kanzure | MRI doesn't have enough resolution for the level we're talking about (sadly) | 19:52 |
| kanzure | well, ok. | 19:52 |
| klafka | really really not precise | 19:52 |
| brownies | "we're mostly sure you probably didn't get a brain tumor in the last 3 weeks. approved!" | 19:52 |
| kanzure | you have correctly identified that i am somewhat talking out of my ass | 19:53 |
| brownies | kanzure: ha, yea, but how would you even measure the thing you're looking for? | 19:53 |
| kanzure | there are many "psych tests" but i'm not confident that they will measure what we're talking about | 19:53 |
| kanzure | maybe plasticity is a better thing to be talking about? there are certain plasticity-enhancing nootropics right? | 19:54 |
| kanzure | plasticity is a fun one because you can easily compare graphs of neurons or show one has a bigger bush :p | 19:54 |
| kanzure | http://web.bryant.edu/~bblais/projects/plasticity/ | 19:55 |
| kanzure | "Plasticity is a package of programs, with a convenient interface, used to run simulations of single cells and networks of neurons. It is used to explore BCM synaptic modification, Hebbian learning, ICA, and others. It accompanies the book Theory of Cortical Plasticity by Leon Cooper, Nathan Intrator, Brian Blais, and Harel Shouval." | 19:55 |
| kanzure | note: i am not claiming that increasing local connections is equivalent to a nootropic mechanism of action | 19:56 |
| kanzure | "Decreases in rat extracellular hippocampal glucose concentration associated with cognitive demand during a spatial task" | 19:57 |
| kanzure | "Using in vivo microdialysis, we measured hippocampal extracellular glucose | 19:57 |
| kanzure | concentrations in rats while they performed spontaneous alternation tests of spatial working | 19:58 |
| kanzure | memory in one of two mazes." | 19:58 |
| klafka | brownies - you can't | 19:59 |
| kanzure | you can't measure neural networks operating under nootropic modulation? | 20:00 |
| klafka | i just am skeptical of doing so in a way that is decidedly meaningful | 20:01 |
| klafka | and I guess you should clarify what are you measuring | 20:02 |
| klafka | holistic response or change in firing patterns | 20:02 |
| JayDugger | Anyone here have an archive of sciencemadness.org? | 20:02 |
| kanzure | superkuh: i think you have sciencemadness.org archives? | 20:02 |
| kanzure | klafka: no not holistic | 20:02 |
| kanzure | klafka: there must be neuron and network-traffic-level differences | 20:03 |
| JayDugger | "http://superkuh.ath.cx/users/superkuh/Library/" down from me. | 20:03 |
| JayDugger | Thank you for the pointer, though. | 20:03 |
| kanzure | JayDugger: http://superkuh.com/library/ | 20:03 |
| JayDugger | Oh, very nice! I lag the times. | 20:03 |
| brownies | isn't that paper you just linked EXACTLY that? | 20:04 |
| brownies | and a decrease in extracellular glucose concentration during high activity times makes a ton of sense, obviously | 20:04 |
| brownies | the problem is, what does it mean to become "smarter" under a nootropic? maybe it makes cells more efficient, so you'd see more glucose hanging out outside... or maybe the cells work harder so you see less... or maybe both, in exactly the right balance, so no net change in glucose o.O | 20:05 |
| kanzure | ah well i have been very careful to not say "smarter" i guess | 20:07 |
| kanzure | "smarter" can mean anything about the brain.. i want better hippocampus-thalamus connectivity (or something) | 20:08 |
| kanzure | the concept of bathing the entire brain with a non-specific drug just seems absurd | 20:16 |
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| brownies | well, that's what we do, exclusively, isn't it? | 21:27 |
| brownies | just... let it soak in there, and what happens, happens. | 21:28 |
| kanzure | neurophysiologists also study what happens on a smaller scale | 21:31 |
| kanzure | the graphs that they publish can be converted into equations that can be used in simulators | 21:31 |
| kanzure | http://channelpedia.epfl.ch | 21:31 |
| kanzure | http://channelpedia.epfl.ch/ionchannels/190 | 21:32 |
| kanzure | mAlpha = (0.055*(-27-v))/(exp((-27-v)/3.8) - 1) If v neq -27 | 21:32 |
| kanzure | etc. | 21:32 |
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| brownies | interesting | 22:40 |
| kanzure | brownies: on a slightly related note, i like to recommend this video: | 22:41 |
| kanzure | http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-2874207418572601262&q=almaden+cognitive+computing | 22:41 |
| kanzure | but skip the first 8 minutes or something | 22:41 |
| kanzure | i guess i mean just the first 6min 30sec. hrm. | 22:45 |
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