2012-05-20.log

--- Log opened Sun May 20 00:00:15 2012
ParahSailinthe smallest excimer wavelength is 126nm, they are at 22nm dies00:00
nmz787i thought is was excimer laser00:19
jenzebubblekanzure, are you watching proleague00:25
@kanzurejenzebubble: no?00:25
jenzebubblehttp://www.youtube.com/esportstv00:25
jenzebubbleit helps if you speak korean00:25
jenzebubblebut awesome either way00:26
@kanzuremy korean is pretty rusty00:28
nmz787mo ha sayo00:35
nmz787kanzure: https://www1.hitachigst.com/hdd/research/storage/as/index.html00:36
nmz787write a control scheme for a hard drive, get some plastic wrap and some magnetic beads and some PDMS???00:37
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fennrawr03:36
fennso magnesium glycinate is pretty awesome03:50
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@kanzureoof https://github.com/kanzure/pokecrystal/commits/06:52
@kanzure"Aerobic Microbial Respiration in 86-Million-Year-Old Deep-Sea Red Clay" http://www.sciencemag.org/content/336/6083/922.abstract06:59
@kanzure"Microbial communities can subsist at depth in marine sediments without fresh supply of organic matter for millions of years. At threshold sedimentation rates of 1 millimeter per 1000 years, the low rates of microbial community metabolism in the North Pacific Gyre allow sediments to remain oxygenated tens of meters below the sea floor."06:59
@kanzure"We found that the oxygen respiration rates dropped from 10 micromoles of O2 liter−1 year−1 near the sediment-water interface to 0.001 micromoles of O2 liter−1 year−1 at 30-meter depth within 86 million-year-old sediment. The cell-specific respiration rate decreased with depth but stabilized at around 10−3 femtomoles of O2 cell−1 day−1 10 meters below the seafloor."06:59
@kanzure"This result indicated that the community size is controlled by the rate of carbon oxidation and thereby by the low available energy flux."06:59
chevbirdim thinking of picking up "age of spiritual machines".  thoughts?07:14
@kanzuredon't do it07:15
@kanzureit will only make you want to punch ray07:15
chevbirdoh yea?07:16
@kanzure'the singularity is near' is slightly more bearable07:16
@kanzure'ending aging' might be ok07:16
@kanzure'nanosystems' if you're into reading technical things.. http://gnusha.org/stuff_to_deal_with/nanosystems.tar.gz07:17
@kanzureor have some scifi.. http://heybryan.org/docs/Zindell,%20David%20-%20Neverness%20(v1.0).txt07:17
chevbirdwhy the hate? (never read anything by him so this is a real question)07:21
@kanzurethere's many reasons.. let's start with the hate for "the age of spiritual machines"07:22
@kanzurefrom what i recall, it was largely a book about his (mis)understanding of "conscioussness" and robots07:22
@kanzureTSiN was a revision of the book anyway, and is generally regarded as much more thorough07:23
@kanzurefor a few of the reasons on hating ray, i defer you to sir hatealot: http://heybryan.org/fernhout/07:24
chevbirdhaha ok i see it now07:25
@kanzurealso, he snubbed my handshake attempt, so there's that07:25
@kanzure:p07:25
chevbirdalso found this from hofstadter: "It’s as if you took a lot of very good food and some dog excrement and blended it all up so that you can't possibly figure out what's good or bad. It's an intimate mixture of rubbish and good ideas, and it's very hard to disentangle the two"07:25
@kanzureas far as i can tell, the way that ray did his books was by hanging out on extropy-chat for a few years07:26
@kanzureand then compiling every email that was sent out, into a giant book07:26
@kanzureyou can tell because the list of names in his 'bibliography' is literally a direct list from the extropy-chat membership roster07:26
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ParahSailinnanoimprint lithography looks interesting09:00
ParahSailinif that ends up being the next gen lithography, i think that could shake up the whole industry09:00
ParahSailini think it might make ASIC cheaper09:01
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ParahSailininteresting economic analysis here http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Next-generation_lithography09:11
ThomasEgitalking about nanostuff. i do remember seing some sort of project that printed micrometer 3d structures without layering stuff. i think they focused a laser into some gel or so09:11
@kanzureaw it turns out i only have two nanoimprint lithography papers. i'm so disappointed in myself.09:23
ParahSailinthis implies that to get a distributed model of chip fab, we can't rely on development done by intel09:23
ParahSailinand we should independently develop nanoimprint09:24
@kanzureParahSailin: http://code.google.com/p/homecmos09:24
ParahSailini know09:24
ThomasEgihttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EzHsaJdz9a009:24
ThomasEgithat's the one i remembered09:24
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ParahSailinhttp://www.hpl.hp.com/techreports/1999/HPL-1999-78.pdf09:47
@kanzuredynamo and modelica are fun09:48
@kanzureoh, not the same dynamo09:48
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doclhas something like dry ice sublimation of ln2 evaporation been explored as a possible way to generate pressure for a jetcutter?10:10
docls/of/or10:10
doclI was thinking LN2 last night, but dry ice is safer to handle.10:11
ParahSailindidnt someone ask that in #opensourceecology?10:11
ParahSailinor was that here10:11
* docl mentioned it here last night10:12
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doclEnvironmental issues and concerns have lead the researchers to use such mediums and abrasives that do not require disposal, recycling or lead to pollution. Work is going on in the area of high-pressure cryogenic jet machining (Fig. 16) where liquid nitrogen replaces the water phase and dry ice crystals (solid CO2 crystals) replace the abrasive10:16
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doclhttp://nptel.iitm.ac.in/courses/Webcourse-contents/IIT%20Kharagpur/Manuf%20Proc%20II/pdf/LM-37.pdf10:21
@kanzure"Module 9: Non-conventional machining" heh10:26
doclCO2 has an expansion ratio of 1:554 whereas LN2 is 1:694. I'm not sure that's enough to power a jetcutter on it's own though. A pump is probably still needed.10:29
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doclI wonder... If you had a super-cold needle and scratched it over a relatively warm metal plate, could you cause selective contraction to the point where it breaks pieces off?10:34
jrayhawkfenn: i assume the chelated forms, along with being better absorbed, cause less digestive disruption?10:43
@kanzure"openscad 2011.12 is finally an official debian package"10:52
@kanzurehttp://packages.debian.org/sid/openscad10:52
@kanzurethat's via chrysn@fsfe.org10:52
doclMore on LN2 jets... Apparently they are used to slice soft biopolymers. http://books.google.com/books?id=eT6IFaoJzd0C&pg=PA5711:06
doclhah, looks like industrial ln2 cutting is a thing: http://www.nitrocision.com/11:24
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@kanzure"See also Applied Biosystems, Inc. v. Cruachem, Ltd., 772 F. Supp. 1458, 1466 (D. Del. 1991) (mailing samples of an infringing product may constitute direct patent infringement)"12:55
@kanzurehttp://www.leagle.com/xmlResult.aspx?xmldoc=19912230772FSupp1458_12024.xml&docbase=CSLWAR2-1986-200612:56
@kanzure"FACTS: BIO is the assignee and owner of two patents pertaining to the chemical synthesis of DNA: U.S. Patent No. 4,415,732 for phosphoramidite compounds and processes and U.S. Patent No. 4,458,066 claiming a process for preparing polynucleotides. It filed this action alleging that certain phosphoramidite reagents and DNA synthesizers manufactured and distributed by defendants infringe these patents."12:56
@kanzure The complaint asserts three counts: for direct patent infringement, for inducing patent infringement, and for contributory patent infringement."12:56
@kanzure" In an earlier filed and related patent suit in this Court, Applied Biosystems, Inc. v. Cruachem, Inc., CA 89-579-JRR, ABIO has also sued Inc. Because Inc. is a Delaware corporation, there is no question that this Court can exercise personal jurisdiction over Inc. in the related action."12:57
@kanzure"Second, in 1986, Ian Wilkie and Brendan Hamill of Limited, and Joseph Hall and Hugh Mackie of Inc., came to Delaware to meet with representatives of DuPont, to discuss a joint venture to develop a DNA synthesis instrument."12:59
@kanzure"Third, in 1989, Inc. sent free samples of the types of phosphoramidite reagents at issue in this action to DuPont's research facility in Wilmington, Delaware. More specifically, in an unsuccessful attempt to induce DuPont to set up an account, Inc. sent samples of four reagents to the DuPont Experimental Station for their internal research use. (D.I. 35 at 152-55). Inc. did not seek Holdings approval or even inform Holdings of this shipment to DuP12:59
nmz787what is this all kanzure?13:00
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@kanzure"The strongest support for ABIO's argument that mailing the samples provides specific jurisdiction under Section 3104(c)(3) is Honeywell, Inc. v. Metz Apparatewerke,509 F.2d 1137 (7th Cir.1975), which also considered issues of personal jurisdiction in a patent case."13:02
@kanzurenmz787: applied biosystems suing some dna synthesizer company in 199113:03
@kanzurefor mailing nucleotide samples.13:03
nmz787can patents be renewed?13:03
chris_99almost certain they can't13:10
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upgrayedddsomeone should try patenting the idea of renewing patents14:56
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docl"Despite its preposterous coldness, liquid nitrogen has only 15% more cooling power than the same amount of ice at 0° Celsius."18:21
doclhttp://www.cookingissues.com/primers/liquid-nitrogen-primer/18:22
* docl doubts this fact.18:23
doclThe cooling power of the liquid to gas phase transition is not the same as the total cooling power of the liquid. Most of that gets lost when the vapor expands.18:28
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@kanzurehttp://inventables.blogspot.com/2012/05/40k-desktop-factory-competition-to-make.html21:13
@kanzurehttp://www.kickstarter.com/projects/rocknail/filabot-plastic-filament-maker21:13
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joshcryerI hate deathists.21:23
joshcryerIt would cause me great annoyance except the fact that they're going to die. Ha, ha.21:24
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* n_bentha wonders what a deathist was21:54
@kanzuren_bentha: people who are dead, i guess?21:56
Burninategiven context, probably someone who has given up on living forever21:57
n_benthai gave up on that a long time ago21:57
n_benthaalthough...if i could just drink a potion and be immortal, you can bet that i would do it21:58
n_benthaeating, shitting, pissing, etc are over-rated21:58
n_bentha+breathing too21:58
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joshcryerMore so people who are resigned to dying.22:07
joshcryerThat is, in a short term view, ie, 100 years, etc.22:07
joshcryerThis wouldn't describe someone who wanted to live 200 trillion years until heat death.22:07
kanzure"A statement issued by Millipore explains "Pursuant to the settlement agreement, ABI received a paid-up license under the Koester patent, Millipore received a paid-up license under the Caruthers patents, and Biosearch, Inc., a license under the Caruthers patents before it became a subsidiary of Millipore, agreed to pay an undisclosed sum to ABI in lieu of future royalty payments and in exchange for a similar paid-up license.""22:08
n_benthaI'm all for living longer (1000 years+), but I just don't think that it will be achievable in my lifetime. Does that make me a deathist?22:09
joshcryern_bentha, are dismissive of cryonics?22:09
joshcryerare you, rather22:09
kanzurejoshcryer: cryonics hasn't been demonstrated to work yet, except on small tissue samples22:09
n_benthamuch work to be done in cryonics22:10
n_benthabut i don't think it's impossibl;e22:10
kanzurejoshcryer: i'm not entirely happy with how little testing alcor has been doing.. what, they are too busy freezing people? i doubt it22:10
n_benthabut that's not really 'living'22:10
joshcryerkanzure, I'm not sure what "demonstration" has to do with anything22:11
kanzure"Did patents hinder the rice sequencing effort? It seems clear that patents did drive up the cost of equipment above what it would have been in the absence of the patents."22:11
kanzurewhere da fuck did they pull that conclusion from? they show one of rob carlson's graphs, but that doesn't have anything to do with patents..22:12
joshcryern_bentha, eh, you don't 'die' when you go to sleep, from the point of view of cronicists 'death' is 'deanimation.' ie, 100 years ago a stopped heart was a death sentence, yet now we routinely restart them (and sometimes intentionally stop them).22:12
n_benthaok nbut if u live for 100 yeras, then get frozen22:13
n_bentha1000 years pass and you get woken up22:13
n_benthathen you didn't really live for 1100 years22:13
n_benthalike...you can claim to be 1100 years old, but you didn't do anything for 1000 years except be frozen22:13
kanzurehttp://online.liebertpub.com/doi/abs/10.1089/blr.1997.16.38122:13
kanzure1997 {BLR 2417} DNA Synthesis Equipment - PE Applied Biosystems - Pharmacia Biotech. : Perkin-Elmer Unit Sues Over DNA Synthesis — PE Applied Biosystems Says Pharmacia Biotech Is Infringing Several Patents22:13
joshcryern_bentha, that's getting into tricky territory. You could be filled with 1000 years of experiences to help you catch up in a sim that runs at 1000x the normal rate of time, etc.22:14
kanzure"According to a company officer, Pharmacia Biotech has 'refused to accept [the licensing] terms standard in the industry ... [and] this action [the suit] is necessary to protect our position and that of our licenses."22:15
kanzurehehehe biosearch accused ABI of antitrust http://online.liebertpub.com/doi/abs/10.1089/blr.1985.4.30522:15
n_benthaI'd be worried about how that would affect one's attitude and mental state. Would be interesting to see it tested though.22:15
n_benthaUs scientists are naturally skeptical; however, we must keep experimenting.22:16
kanzure"In the counterclaims, Biosearch specifically alleges that Applied Biosystems has used its monopoly power in the DNA synthesis market by refusing to honor the warranty on its synthesizers if customers purchase reagents from companies other than Applied Biosystems."22:18
kanzure"Additionally, Biosearch alleges misuse of the patents by Applied Biosystems' refusal to sell in the future, certain reagents to purchasers of isntruments from companies other than Applied Biosystems."22:18
n_benthaPatent Wars need to end22:19
joshcryerPatents need to end.22:20
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kanzure"Additionally, the Court rejected Promega's statements that Applied Biosystems and Roche had made false claims to the U.S. government in connection with their sales of Taq DNA polymerase, which is used to perform the polymerase chain reaction (PCR) technology."22:26
kanzure"together with their Applied Biosystems/MDS Sciex Instruments partnership, today announced that the U.S. Court of Appeals for the Federal Circuit upheld the judgment of the U.S. Court for the District of Delaware ruling in favor of Applied Biosystems and MDS Inc. in a patent infringement lawsuit against Micromass U.K. Ltd. and its U.S. subsidiary, Micromass, Inc., both divisions of Waters Corporation."22:26
kanzure"Micromass was found to infringe U.S. Patent No. 4,963,736. The patent covers technology for triple quadrupole mass spectrometers. The court upheld both the injunction previously granted against the sale of infringing Micromass mass spectrometers and the damage award of $52.6 million to Applied Biosystems and MDS Inc."22:26
kanzure$52M for mass spec infringement?22:26
kanzure"do you know that during the genome days Celera was obligated to buy ABI supplies at list price and not allowed to dilute the big-dye, while the genomic centers got big discounts and dilute the reagents by 20x"22:29
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kanzuregeh http://www.flworkshop.com/Community/Seafood/Instrument_Business_Outlook_2007-05.pdf22:45
kanzure"Hey Bryan, There is a huge article about Meredith Patterson that mentions you, but by first name only. Way to keep a low profile. Are you going to BioCurious in June?"22:46
kanzurehrmm22:46
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kanzurelet's see. what article could that possibly be.22:47
* joshcryer sighs22:52
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kanzureoahack@librelist.com might be something interesting23:02
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kanzureeh maybe not. http://librelist.com/browser/oahack/23:03
kanzurewhat is matt senate doing there?23:04
kanzurebleh.. http://startupscience.eventbrite.com/23:05
nmz787where?23:05
kanzurebut, when i look closer, it's (1) june 16 and (2) "network for open scientific innovation"23:06
kanzureso that means it's probably joseph jackson23:06
nmz787are you/we talking about synthesis at either of the two events in SFbay?23:06
kanzureyes, i was going to talk about diy dna synthesis and microfluidics, among some other topics23:07
kanzurethey had some "rules" for how they want the presentations to go down for groups23:07
kanzurebut uh.. screw dem rules?23:07
nmz787what about at sci startup23:08
nmz787we should pull the industry secret card23:08
kanzureah when you register on that eventbrite thing, it says "For questions about the event, contact the event organizer at joseph.jackson@gmail.com"23:08
kanzureit seems sorta lame though. what does he want me to do there? we all know each other already...23:08
nmz787i'm sure there will be someone you dont know23:09
nmz787and def that i dont know23:09
kanzurenot based on that attendee list23:09
nmz787so you can introduce me23:09
nmz787etc23:09
kanzurei can do that over the interwebs :p23:10
nmz787psh23:10
nmz787so do you know anyone that could help contribute to some custom CAD software for the microfluidics?23:10
kanzureyes.23:11
kanzurei think most of the cad related issues are down to a weekend or two of writing code (at least for 2d geometries).23:11
nmz787i still think the best idea is to use a propeller to drive the gantry, based on some subset of gcode23:11
kanzurei don't want to write a gcode parser for propeller23:12
kanzurethat seems silly :/23:12
nmz787well then not gcode23:12
nmz787we only need X and Y positioning23:12
nmz787its not multiaccess or whatever23:12
nmz787axis*23:13
nmz787hmm yeah gcode seems way overkill23:14
nmz787would you be interested in writing some sort of toolpath output from the cad design?23:14
nmz787and i write the propeller end of things23:14
yashgarothso you guys are staying in SF through sunday right?23:18
kanzurei'll need to think about it. i don't want to reinvent too many wheels.23:18
kanzureyashgaroth: i think i leave sunday evening23:18
yashgarothah okay that's my plan too23:18
yashgarothis there anything planned for sunday or is it the traditional orgy/coke binge?23:19
nmz787yeah i can stay as long as i have a floor to crash on23:19
kanzureyashgaroth: there might be joseph's thing, but it might be lame so maybe we'll go hang out at langton labs or raid halcyon molecular for equipment23:20
kanzureoh we could also go crash 3scan23:20
yashgarothwhat about thiel's mansion? I want to steal some china or something23:20
kanzurewhich mansion? there's at least two per major city i think23:21
yashgarothyeah probably23:21
kanzurewe could defecate on siai's lawn23:22
nmz787well what CAD software are you going to start with?23:24
kanzurei've been toying around with some code that generates svg, dxf, and step23:24
kanzurefrom f-reps.23:25
nmz787i think we could write a toolpath generator from an svg23:25
nmz787we know the resolution of the gantry23:25
kanzureit will probably look like implicitcad or something23:25
kanzurei don't think svg->toolpath is a good idea, sorry23:25
nmz787so scale appropriately, then feed pixel locations serially to the controller23:26
nmz787why not?23:26
kanzurethe toolpath can be generated from the implicit geometry directly, rather than from an xml/svg file23:26
kanzurei just got off of a 48 hour pokmeon binge. i need to sleep.23:27
kanzurehttps://github.com/kanzure/pokecrystal/commits23:27
kanzuregood night23:27
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--- Log closed Mon May 21 00:00:16 2012

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