| --- Log opened Thu May 24 00:00:19 2012 | ||
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| skorket | Anyone in the boston or portland area? | 01:36 |
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| kanzure | skorket: yep | 06:14 |
| skorket | kanzure, you're in boston? | 07:24 |
| kanzure | skorket: no, but there are others in here in boston | 07:29 |
| kanzure | skorket: have you visited bosslab? | 07:29 |
| skorket | kanzuer, no, what's that? | 07:37 |
| skorket | kanzure, you're in portland? | 07:37 |
| kanzure | no, but jrayhawk and Mokbortolan_1 and bkero are. | 07:38 |
| skorket | ah, you're neither, you're just pointing out there are others here.. | 07:38 |
| kanzure | skorket: http://bosslab.org/ | 07:38 |
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| skorket | that looks awesome. I hear boston is really a biotech hub | 07:40 |
| skorket | I'm thinking I want to try and get a job there. | 07:40 |
| bkero | Hello | 07:42 |
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| Mokbortolan_1 | what? yes? | 09:22 |
| audy | everyone wants a job! | 09:26 |
| Mokbortolan_1 | no they don't | 09:28 |
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| audy | kanzure I heard you were working on a torrent of all published science | 09:48 |
| kanzure | *cough* | 09:50 |
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| skorket | anybody know of any biotech jobs for a programmer like me? | 11:07 |
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| kanzure | skorket: that probably means bioinformatics. not sure what other gigs you're expecting? | 11:26 |
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| skorket | kanzure, I could imagine someone needing a programmer to develop/program a machine, but otherwise, yes, that's what I take it to mean as well... | 11:27 |
| kanzure | well yes we can /imagine/ that, but in practice i haven't found that. | 11:29 |
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| skorket | There isn't a market for people to make machines to do high throughput screening or some other automated task? Anyway, I really don't know, I'm not in the industry so I'm just guessing | 11:30 |
| kanzure | i don't know anyone (or any company) that actually uses the cpan tecan module for liquid handling | 11:30 |
| kanzure | there's somewhat of a 'grant-cycle market' for high-throughput screening machines, but from what i can tell most people never touch that software for a few reasons | 11:31 |
| kanzure | first reason is warranties | 11:31 |
| kanzure | second reason is because they paid enough to the original vendor that the vendor usually has a software support contract | 11:31 |
| kanzure | i've heard some outlandish tales of really old lab equipment still under warranty or service | 11:31 |
| kanzure | oh, an important third reason is that most people aren't like jcline and aren't going to reverse engineer the protocol or try to replace the machine's ROM :p | 11:32 |
| skorket | I saw a paper a while ago on how to roll your own oligo nucleotide machine...it seems like with the availability of microcontrollers, the internet, etc, that home brew and cheap machines to do these common tasks would be taking off | 11:35 |
| skorket | again, not like I really know what I'm talking about | 11:35 |
| kanzure | cheap machines are definitely taking off, but labs still buy expensive equipment because they don't usually have the expertise to build the equipment on their own (or, if they are going to bother with building equipment, it will usually be something that doesn't exist yet) | 11:37 |
| skorket | Is there anyone doing cheap lab equipment stuff? Or is there not really a market for it? | 11:38 |
| kanzure | from what i can tell you can't buy a new dna synthesizer for less than $50k | 11:39 |
| skorket | Anyway, getting back to the original goal of pimping myself...know of any bioinformatics jobs? | 11:39 |
| kanzure | part of this is because there were some pretty hefty patent wars | 11:39 |
| ThomasEgi | hm. equipment that needs tons of engineering effort and sells in low quantities. if there"d be a market they would be cheaper. | 11:39 |
| kanzure | skorket: there's tons of bioinformatics work out there.. although not all of it pays a livable wage :P | 11:39 |
| kanzure | ThomasEgi: haha yeah, it's certainly not the first thing you want to hear.. "oh yeah, and our customers have no money" | 11:40 |
| skorket | of course, that was what the first computers were like... | 11:40 |
| ThomasEgi | i am currently doing some progress with low noise amplifier circuits, but i doubt they are of any use for you guys | 11:40 |
| kanzure | skorket: yes, but computing was entrenched in patents as well | 11:42 |
| skorket | yep... | 11:42 |
| kanzure | skorket: there are many people doing cheap lab equipment stuff, but no retailers selling "Sub $10k fancypants open source spectrophotometers" | 11:43 |
| kanzure | and no retailers selling "Sub $20k scanning tunneling microscopes that actually work" | 11:43 |
| skorket | yep...though all that stuff should be possible | 11:43 |
| ThomasEgi | hm. i knew a raster electron microscope. | 11:43 |
| skorket | no, I think ThomasEgi has got it, high engineering effort + low demand = high cost | 11:44 |
| skorket | so I guess the next step is to lower cost and generate demand! | 11:44 |
| kanzure | it's not that high cost to produce the equipment | 11:46 |
| kanzure | it's only high cost if you want to use patents and litigate everyone into giving you a monopoly | 11:46 |
| ThomasEgi | production is indeed not the cost problem | 11:47 |
| ThomasEgi | but . engineering can eat tons of money | 11:47 |
| ThomasEgi | for consumer electronic's it is not so bad. but lab equipment usualy pushes the limits | 11:47 |
| ThomasEgi | and doing that successfully takes a lot of time, and engineers arent cheap. | 11:48 |
| kanzure | most lab equipment is much simpler- in terms of number of components, features and functions- than consumer electronic devices | 11:48 |
| skorket | but even getting something like a toaster or a coffee machine takes a tun of engineering effort | 11:48 |
| ThomasEgi | as i said. it is not the cost of production. | 11:48 |
| kanzure | skorket: maybe you're an awful engineer | 11:48 |
| ThomasEgi | toaster is like one wire. | 11:49 |
| skorket | kanzure, maybe you don't understand how much engineering goes into everyday objects | 11:49 |
| ThomasEgi | takes zero ingeneering effort. | 11:49 |
| kanzure | so you're telling me a toaster is complicated? | 11:49 |
| kanzure | or what precisely | 11:49 |
| skorket | I was thinking more along the lines of a coffee machine, but I could see a toaster getting a little tricky | 11:49 |
| ThomasEgi | i mean. anyone can build an audio-amplifier. most engineers can build a good audio amplifier in a matter of hours or days. but building one that has really superb performance can take monthes. | 11:50 |
| skorket | for example, you need to make sure the timer is right. You might want to have some fuses, make sure they work. You need to make sure the coil is just the right distance away from the toast, etc... | 11:50 |
| jrayhawk | and liability gets expensive | 11:50 |
| ThomasEgi | jrayhawk, that's another point indeed. | 11:50 |
| skorket | Look, even things like 'wc' or 'grep' take a ton of engineering effort. Easy to do simply, easy to do wrong, difficult to do right and robust... | 11:50 |
| kanzure | maybe you're just bad at writing software too? | 11:51 |
| skorket | are you serious? | 11:51 |
| kanzure | no, i've never seen your code | 11:51 |
| skorket | to me, kanzure, it sounds like you're not so experienced with product development if you can dismiss engineering effort so readily | 11:52 |
| kanzure | i'm not dismissing it | 11:52 |
| skorket | ah, you're just dismissing me then, ok | 11:52 |
| kanzure | yes | 11:52 |
| kanzure | to be fair, my first toaster sucked | 11:52 |
| ThomasEgi | kanzure, you shouldn't. altho the toaster example is a bit oversimplified. skorket still has a valid point. | 11:53 |
| kanzure | it was supposed to be a blinken-LED circuit | 11:53 |
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| kanzure | ThomasEgi: i think such a project is wholly within the abilities of an engineer | 11:54 |
| ThomasEgi | a toaster. sure | 11:54 |
| ThomasEgi | but a dna-synthesizer takes a lot more than a toaster | 11:54 |
| kanzure | if one person can't understand a person, what makes you think N>1 will? | 11:54 |
| kanzure | wtf | 11:54 |
| kanzure | if one person can't understand a system | 11:54 |
| kanzure | is what i meant. | 11:55 |
| skorket | huh? | 11:55 |
| ThomasEgi | kanzure, if you have multiple persons everyone can focus on one part of the system | 11:55 |
| kanzure | that's useful when you want to speed things up or if the problem is decomposable in some significant way | 11:55 |
| ThomasEgi | pretty much every problem can be split into smaller ones | 11:56 |
| ThomasEgi | for some systems you simply need multiple people. | 11:56 |
| kanzure | still, i do think that something even as ridiculously big-of-a-project as, say, a space shuttle, could be done by a single person | 11:56 |
| kanzure | (perhaps not assembly) | 11:56 |
| skorket | umm, I would say that there exist problems that can't be decomposed but that all solvable problems can be | 11:57 |
| ThomasEgi | kanzure, it could be done but not within the lifetime of one human | 11:57 |
| kanzure | ThomasEgi: i think copenhagen suborbitals proves you wrong on that one? although they aren't building shuttles, so poor choice of words on my part for this example. | 11:57 |
| ThomasEgi | a one man rocket is not a spaceshuttle | 11:57 |
| ThomasEgi | that's pretty much the same as comparing a hangglider with an airbus | 11:57 |
| kanzure | another example is CAD. opencascade has 100s of people. none of them understand their own code. it's totally trash and garbage. if you don't have one person understanding it completely, things are going to go south very quickly. | 11:58 |
| ThomasEgi | just because both can fly | 11:58 |
| kanzure | ThomasEgi: yes i know, that's why i said it was a bad word choice for that example. sorry. | 11:58 |
| ThomasEgi | it still doesn't change the original point of the discussion | 11:58 |
| kanzure | that you need 100s of people to build lab equipment? | 11:58 |
| ThomasEgi | that lab equipment is expensive because it requires a lot of engineering effort | 11:58 |
| ThomasEgi | no you don't | 11:58 |
| kanzure | quantify a lot | 11:58 |
| ThomasEgi | depends on the equipment. | 11:59 |
| ThomasEgi | but it can easily reach many man-years of work | 11:59 |
| kanzure | thermocycler. | 11:59 |
| ThomasEgi | thermocycler is a weekend project | 11:59 |
| kanzure | a thermocycler is about one man-week. | 11:59 |
| kanzure | right. | 11:59 |
| kanzure | openpcr took about a year. but they were also dicking around. so whatever. | 11:59 |
| kanzure | a centrifuge. | 12:00 |
| kanzure | (oh also they had no hardware experience) | 12:00 |
| skorket | there's also a difference in making a tool for yourself or your lab and making a tool to be sold to others | 12:00 |
| ThomasEgi | as i already said. it depends. if it is "regular" stuff. not that much engineering is required. but if you are going to push the limits. you will need a lot of time and experience | 12:00 |
| kanzure | ThomasEgi: nothing about common lab equipment pushes any limits. | 12:00 |
| kanzure | except perhaps the limits of my tolerance | 12:01 |
| ThomasEgi | kanzure, i have to disagree with you. | 12:01 |
| kanzure | (note: dna synthesizers aren't considered common lab equipment) | 12:01 |
| ThomasEgi | great performance of equipment wont come out of the blue | 12:02 |
| ThomasEgi | and if the things you want to do is little known and poorly documented in general. you'll have a hard time making stuff work. | 12:02 |
| kanzure | definitely. | 12:03 |
| ThomasEgi | so.. where did we get of the discussion anyway? | 12:03 |
| ThomasEgi | before we started arguing why lab stuff is expensive? | 12:03 |
| kanzure | skorket wanted to know if there was a market for cheap equipment | 12:04 |
| ThomasEgi | hm. there probably is some demand. but noone supplies cheap equipment | 12:04 |
| ThomasEgi | i mean. who doesnt want cheap equipment? | 12:04 |
| kanzure | i don't know if there is demand though | 12:05 |
| kanzure | i know everyone says they want cheap equipment | 12:05 |
| kanzure | but when the grant rolls around, you're going to type in $50k for equipment. | 12:05 |
| ThomasEgi | hm. my old neighbour's dad worked at a chemistry lab. the whole company went down the drain so they ended up closing the lab, selling the equipment for bargain. | 12:06 |
| ThomasEgi | his dad ended up with his entire hous packed full of very expensive equipment | 12:06 |
| kanzure | you mean previously expensive equipment :P | 12:07 |
| ThomasEgi | guess. if you can get your hands on it on a budget. and i am not talking bout 50k here but something you'd spend on a hobby project... then i bet people would actually buy it | 12:07 |
| ThomasEgi | yeah.. well it is still high quality | 12:07 |
| kanzure | yeah, because of regulations, companies also regularly purge old equipment that ends up getting sold for very cheap prices (although, it's not always working); then there's the refurbishment market | 12:07 |
| kanzure | i was thinking about a little experiment | 12:08 |
| kanzure | skorket asked about a cheap equipment market | 12:08 |
| kanzure | i know there's labx, ebay and other liquidation events to get access to equipment | 12:08 |
| ThomasEgi | hm. that means you'll have to know where to get it. it is not exactly the "buy an experimentation kit on ebay for 150$" thing i had in mind | 12:08 |
| kanzure | but what about an explicit market for cheap equipment. /not/ auctions. | 12:08 |
| kanzure | auctions aren't how you encourage companies to sell cheaper equipment. | 12:08 |
| ThomasEgi | would indeed be an interesting experiment | 12:09 |
| kanzure | not sure what it would look like. | 12:09 |
| ThomasEgi | silkroad for lab equipment? | 12:09 |
| ThomasEgi | labroad? | 12:09 |
| kanzure | why would it be anonymous? | 12:09 |
| ThomasEgi | was just kidding^ | 12:10 |
| kanzure | trying to be hip :P | 12:10 |
| ThomasEgi | popularity hardly ever hurt business. | 12:10 |
| ThomasEgi | afk for a while.. will be back later | 12:11 |
| kanzure | the fbi sent out an email exposing everyone's email address -_- | 12:12 |
| kanzure | "Everyone is invited on the evening of June 13 to a special event being hosted by Nancy Burgess from the Defense Threat Reduction Agency. Further details on the where and when are to follow, but the evening activity will focus on innovation and technology" | 12:12 |
| kanzure | defense threat reduction agency? | 12:12 |
| kanzure | what am i getting involved in.. | 12:12 |
| ENKI-][ | "defense threat reduction" is code for "kill everyone with an interest in gene sequencing before they design a virus" | 12:13 |
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| kanzure | http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Defense_Threat_Reduction_Agency | 12:23 |
| kanzure | "The Defense Threat Reduction Agency (DTRA) is an agency within the United States Department of Defense and is the official Combat Support Agency for countering weapons of mass destruction (chemical, biological, radiological, nuclear, and high explosives)." | 12:23 |
| kanzure | "DTRA employs 2,000 civilian and military personnel at more than 14 locations around the world, including Russia, Kazakhstan, Azerbaijan, Uzbekistan, Georgia, and Ukraine" | 12:23 |
| kanzure | "DTRA was established in 1998 by consolidating several DoD organizations, including the Defense Special Weapons Agency" | 12:24 |
| kanzure | "DTRA's vision is "to make the world safer by reducing the threat of weapons of mass destruction."" | 12:24 |
| kanzure | "Defense’s Nuclear Agency, 1947–1997, traces the development of the Armed Forces Special Weapons Project (AFSWP), and its descendant government organizations, from its original founding in 1947 to 1997. After the disestablishment of the Manhattan Engineering District (MED) in 1947, AFSWP was formed to provide military training in nuclear weapons’ operations." | 12:25 |
| kanzure | "DTRA sponsors the journal WMD Insights." pfft i should totally publish something in that | 12:26 |
| kanzure | i wonder if they would be willing to train me in "nuclear weapons operation" as well? | 12:33 |
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| docl | I guess the interesting question is what the low hanging fruit is as far as lab equipment? What are the weak points of the problem? | 13:42 |
| docl | What could demand be generated for most effectively by lowering the cost per unit? | 13:43 |
| docl | What could have its engineering be easily partitioned among several open source projects? | 13:43 |
| docl | What gets cheapest the fastest as economies of scale increase? | 13:44 |
| kanzure | it's all pretty low hanging as far as i can tell. most thermocyclers aren't going to need a millionth degree of precision | 13:48 |
| docl | how much demand for thermocyclers? | 13:49 |
| docl | I guess it's something every bio lab needs? | 13:51 |
| kanzure | yes every biology lab has thermocyclers. | 13:52 |
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| docl | how cheap could it be / is it? | 13:54 |
| kanzure | well openpcr sells it for an outrageous $512 | 13:54 |
| kanzure | but it's <$100 in parts | 13:54 |
| kanzure | and most commercial ones go for >$5,000 | 13:54 |
| delinquentme | OpenPCR - the $599 Personal PCR Machine / Thermal Cycler | 13:55 |
| delinquentme | gotta squeeze that change | 13:55 |
| kanzure | oh, $599 now? fuck that | 13:55 |
| kanzure | i don't understand why nobody is selling a $100 thermocycler | 14:00 |
| kanzure | if someone wants to make a product at that price point, let me know. | 14:00 |
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| delinquentme | kanzure, yeah its ridic .. the girl i was chatting about bio stuff with is trying to do that | 14:15 |
| delinquentme | but she started out with a machined metal body ... lol so thats kinda in the wrong direction already | 14:16 |
| delinquentme | delinquentme_, HIO | 14:16 |
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| kanzure | ParahSailin: where do professors order their equipment from? do you have a catalog you can give me | 14:19 |
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| kanzure | http://www.thermoscientific.com/ecomm/servlet/productsdetail_11152_L10880_88611_11952949_-1 | 14:24 |
| kanzure | "Request Quote" ok *click* | 14:24 |
| kanzure | "A request for quote has been added to your cart" | 14:24 |
| kanzure | FAIL | 14:24 |
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| kanzure | 82% discount? http://www.amazon.com/AmScope-40X-2000X-Biological-Microscope-Mechanical/dp/B004UMDLAA/ref=sr_1_5?s=industrial&ie=UTF8&qid=1337894843&sr=1-5 | 14:28 |
| kanzure | yashgaroth: can you givem e the name of some product catalogs for centrifuges etc.? | 14:29 |
| brownies | delinquentme: link to her work? | 14:29 |
| yashgaroth | like, manufacturer catalogs? | 14:29 |
| kanzure | yeah | 14:29 |
| kanzure | prices. | 14:29 |
| kanzure | with product ids and things. | 14:29 |
| brownies | yashgaroth: yeah, are they printed catalogs? how could i get a copy? | 14:29 |
| yashgaroth | what's wrong with online listings? | 14:30 |
| delinquentme | I could connect you with her brownies | 14:30 |
| delinquentme | i dont think shes got an email up | 14:30 |
| kanzure | yashgaroth: nobody orders from the online listings really | 14:30 |
| delinquentme | webpage rather | 14:30 |
| brownies | delinquentme: sure, sounds interesting | 14:30 |
| yashgaroth | moreso than paper catalogs | 14:30 |
| kanzure | yashgaroth: i'm pretty sure they are still flipping through their thermofischer or sigma catalog | 14:30 |
| brownies | yashgaroth: well, when you need a giant $10000 machine, what do you do? | 14:30 |
| yashgaroth | most companies or labs have an associated rep assigned to them from X centrifuge company | 14:31 |
| delinquentme | brownies, you wanna pm me your email? | 14:31 |
| brownies | delinquentme: sure | 14:31 |
| brownies | and then you ask the rep to get you the price for whatever you need? | 14:32 |
| yashgaroth | yep | 14:32 |
| brownies | educational buying works in a similar way, actually. i rather hate it. | 14:32 |
| kanzure | yashgaroth: i was just explaining to him that hitachi, mitsubishi, thermofischer, and all these other companies produce lab equipment | 14:33 |
| kanzure | e.g. http://www.hitachi-koki.com/himac/centrifuges/cp_wx/cp_wx.html | 14:33 |
| yashgaroth | hell mitsubishi makes biopharma drugs themselves | 14:33 |
| kanzure | oh? | 14:34 |
| yashgaroth | mitsibishi tanabe research | 14:34 |
| kanzure | http://www.mt-pharma.co.jp/e/ | 14:34 |
| kanzure | hm | 14:34 |
| yashgaroth | my previous company sold them one | 14:35 |
| kanzure | sold them one what? | 14:35 |
| yashgaroth | a (potential) drug | 14:35 |
| brownies | yashgaroth: so, does your company just proclaim "we will buy all our stuff from Thermo" and then you get a rep, and that's that | 14:35 |
| brownies | or do you have a variety of reps from all the companies that supply you | 14:35 |
| yashgaroth | no, most of that stuff is from lab surplus places | 14:35 |
| brownies | lab surplus? what do you mean? | 14:35 |
| yashgaroth | used lab equipment vendors | 14:36 |
| kanzure | refurbished, liquidations, auctions | 14:36 |
| yashgaroth | labx, labsurplus, labtrader, ebay | 14:36 |
| yashgaroth | university sales too, good deals there sometimes | 14:36 |
| brownies | yashgaroth: how does one find a university sale? | 14:37 |
| kanzure | browsing random sites | 14:37 |
| brownies | sorry for dumb questions, just trying to grok the whole supply chain | 14:37 |
| yashgaroth | uni website, they all have one hidden somewhere | 14:37 |
| kanzure | F7 is notorious for religiously looking at auction feeds from 100s of sites | 14:37 |
| kanzure | F7 why aren't you logged in :| hmph | 14:38 |
| brownies | yashgaroth: mind linking to an example? | 14:38 |
| yashgaroth | http://surplus.ucsd.edu/AdvancedSearch.aspx?id=3 | 14:38 |
| brownies | thanks! | 14:38 |
| yashgaroth | usually '[university's initials] surplus' will find it, though some are better about displaying prices than others | 14:39 |
| yashgaroth | brownies: re: your previous question, they usually force you to go through a rep since retail prices are much higher than the "deal" a rep will give you | 14:40 |
| yashgaroth | especially when buying in any sort of bulk, or an expensive machine | 14:41 |
| kanzure | how much of a deal? | 14:41 |
| yashgaroth | 10-20% as a very rough average | 14:41 |
| kanzure | 10% of msrp? | 14:41 |
| yashgaroth | and free pizza | 14:41 |
| brownies | 10-20% discount, or 10-20% OF the msrp? | 14:41 |
| kanzure | or 10% off msrp? | 14:41 |
| yashgaroth | wait what's the difference here | 14:42 |
| kanzure | $10k machine for $1k, or 9$k | 14:42 |
| yashgaroth | there is no MSRP since the mfg.er is also the vendor | 14:42 |
| brownies | if the sticker price is $1000, do they... yes, thanks. | 14:42 |
| yashgaroth | oh, 9k | 14:42 |
| yashgaroth | often a free ipad as well | 14:42 |
| kanzure | a free.. ipad. | 14:43 |
| yashgaroth | it's the big thing now...I preferred pizza | 14:43 |
| brownies | next time, try and negotiate for $500 of free pizza instead ;) | 14:45 |
| yashgaroth | if they'd let me buy the expensive equipment...I only bought a lot of reagents from lifetech and they're terrible at freebies | 14:46 |
| yashgaroth | side note, we had a lab manager who spent most of his time just negotiating between the dozen companies that supplied X reagent until he got the lowest price | 14:47 |
| yashgaroth | equipment purchase is more based on whether we already have the same model, what people have experience with, and what they hear good things about; rather than the endless negotiating | 14:49 |
| brownies | yashgaroth: what's an example of such a reagent, where you need a lot and there's a lot of competing suppliers? | 14:50 |
| brownies | yashgaroth: yea that makes sense, re: the equipment | 14:50 |
| yashgaroth | any basic chemical, Tris for example | 14:50 |
| yashgaroth | or pipette tips | 14:50 |
| brownies | ah, those damned pipette tips. | 14:50 |
| yashgaroth | we switched tip suppliers every couple months | 14:51 |
| brownies | was there any noticeable difference? how'd you know you switched suppliers? | 14:51 |
| yashgaroth | same with gloves actually | 14:51 |
| yashgaroth | oh, the boxes are different colors and such | 14:51 |
| yashgaroth | and often we discovered why they were cheaper; bad aspiration, void volumes, tips falling off pipettes, all that | 14:52 |
| brownies | ah i see | 14:56 |
| yashgaroth | the one thing we never did was buy the pipette manufacturer's tips, which I think are reserved for labs with more money than sense | 14:57 |
| brownies | heh | 14:58 |
| brownies | fascinating stuff | 14:58 |
| brownies | so would you then tell your buyer "hey these tips sucked, don't buy from them again" ? | 14:58 |
| brownies | or were you just stuck with whatever he felt like buying every couple months? | 14:58 |
| yashgaroth | nah he'd respond to complaints, but when you've ordered 2 months' worth of tips you have to stick with it til they run out :/ | 14:58 |
| brownies | also, one more dumb question: do you remember his official job title? | 14:59 |
| brownies | heh yea fair | 14:59 |
| yashgaroth | I think just lab manager...he made buffers and plates and such, but mostly he was on the phone | 14:59 |
| brownies | oh, interesting, interesting. | 15:00 |
| brownies | makes sense, i suppose. | 15:00 |
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| yashgaroth | "oh thermo has that for $55/kg, can you go lower? $50, you say?" hangs up and calls thermo "they say $50/kg, can you go lower?" and repeat | 15:00 |
| brownies | oh FFS... searched LinkedIn for "lab manager" and its thrown off by all the local geniuses calling their startup a "lab" -_- | 15:00 |
| brownies | yashgaroth: what a pain ;) | 15:00 |
| yashgaroth | we imagine he got to fuck a lot of the reps, and he did seem quite happy with his job, but that's all speculation | 15:01 |
| brownies | is it like pharmaceutical sales reps? | 15:01 |
| yashgaroth | also the title of 'lab manager' is pretty generic, but for a small company that title usually covers ordering | 15:02 |
| brownies | fascinating. | 15:02 |
| yashgaroth | sort of like pharma, but they're dealing with people who know their stuff, not doctors | 15:02 |
| brownies | haha | 15:03 |
| yashgaroth | my personal interactions with reps was usually only at vendor shows, where one must feign interest to get free food | 15:08 |
| yashgaroth | then a week later a package arrives with some T75 flasks I'll never use, and they keep calling about how the flasks are working out | 15:08 |
| yashgaroth | I never asked for those goddamn flasks | 15:09 |
| brownies | oh haha | 15:13 |
| brownies | yashgaroth: oh, one more question. are there any universities that are well-known for having a lot of surplus that they sell? | 15:13 |
| brownies | or, more generally, what's the indicator that a university might have a lot of surplus? i imagine it's not just *size*... maybe? | 15:14 |
| yashgaroth | not really, a lab will go with whoever's local more than anything...big public unis are a good bet | 15:14 |
| brownies | yeah, figured. alright. | 15:14 |
| yashgaroth | I guess a strong bio program wouldn't hurt | 15:14 |
| yashgaroth | haven't compared many myself, but UCSD is way better than UW...UW did always have free glassware out back of the chem building though | 15:16 |
| brownies | haha | 15:22 |
| brownies | how'd you find out about the glassware? | 15:22 |
| yashgaroth | wandering around on campus | 15:22 |
| yashgaroth | did a lot of nighttime capture the flag, good times | 15:22 |
| brownies | hahah | 15:24 |
| brownies | nice | 15:24 |
| brownies | yeah, we had a spot in the Physics building where you could get free computers if you timed it right | 15:24 |
| yashgaroth | oh we had a ton of that, what with microsoft constantly showering the UW with free computers | 15:25 |
| brownies | hah | 15:25 |
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| roksprok__ | does anyone live in berkely/know how good the transit is? | 16:12 |
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| roksprok | also kanzure you mentioned 100 dollar thermocycler...don't retail products usually have to sell for 3x parts at least to cover returns, supply, other stuff? | 16:14 |
| kanzure | $5 microcontroller, $10 peltier, it's not going to be that expensive | 16:14 |
| kanzure | you're already failing pretty hard with a $5 microcontroller. that's just downright incompetent. | 16:15 |
| kanzure | roksprok: BART is pretty good transportation | 16:15 |
| roksprok | is that busses or subway? | 16:15 |
| kanzure | subway | 16:15 |
| kanzure | there are also busses but i've never used them | 16:15 |
| roksprok | cool is there a sublet website? like does airbnb do that? | 16:16 |
| kanzure | airbnb is a good first step if you want to try to find other places to live | 16:17 |
| kanzure | or you can find a friend to stay with | 16:17 |
| roksprok | I don't think i have any friends in sf bay :-P | 16:18 |
| kanzure | aww that can't possibly be true | 16:18 |
| kanzure | what about all the diybio people | 16:18 |
| kanzure | gourneau keeps offering to lend some space to sleep at | 16:18 |
| roksprok | on diybio mailing list? | 16:18 |
| kanzure | brownies: maybe you have a small hole that roksprok could live in? | 16:18 |
| kanzure | roksprok: sure.. | 16:19 |
| roksprok | brownies: also what would be a minimum cost per month of living there in the summer? | 16:19 |
| kanzure | depends on if you have roommates or not | 16:19 |
| kanzure | $1200-$1500/mo would be doable i think | 16:20 |
| roksprok | thats not too bad | 16:20 |
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| roksprok | looks like lots of 35 dollar places on airbnb....though i wonder if it is normal to use people's kitchens? | 16:24 |
| roksprok | how is indoor fireplace an amenity but 'use of kitchen' not | 16:30 |
| kanzure | fireplaces? those still exist? | 16:31 |
| roksprok | and people apparently make place-of-staying decisions based on the presence of one | 16:32 |
| kanzure | yes.. decisions like 'not' | 16:32 |
| yashgaroth | erm, doesn't the 'kitchen' checkbox imply use of kitchen? | 16:34 |
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| roksprok | did i just miss it? | 16:34 |
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| yashgaroth | could be, or they may remove options if nothing in the area has said amenity | 16:35 |
| roksprok | it looks like they do something like that because some of them have different numbers of amenities | 16:36 |
| roksprok | well thanks for prompting me to take a closer look | 16:37 |
| kanzure | "please go to my facebook page and wish me a happy 38th must cure aging day" | 16:40 |
| yashgaroth | haha | 16:40 |
| roksprok | yashgaroth: are many labs using openPCR? | 16:41 |
| kanzure | no | 16:41 |
| yashgaroth | approximately none of them | 16:41 |
| brownies | roksprok: my biggest piece of advice is to start seriously looking for a place ASAP | 16:41 |
| kanzure | roksprok: http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/930368578/openpcr-open-source-biotech-on-your-desktop | 16:41 |
| brownies | roksprok: depending on how long you want to stay here... lock down some temporary housing on airbnb as fast as you can... then when you get here, start looking at every place that matches your criteria, and show up with a bag of cash and your credit report in hand if you want any hope of getting the place | 16:41 |
| brownies | i'm just kidding... bring a checkbook, not a bag of cash. | 16:42 |
| kanzure | you can bring a bag of cash to me for, you know, safe keeping | 16:42 |
| roksprok | ewww credit report | 16:42 |
| brownies | prices are increasing on pretty much a daily basis | 16:42 |
| kanzure | roksprok: the renting market is not hurting for your business | 16:42 |
| kanzure | summer prices increase significantly in SF | 16:42 |
| brownies | because all these overpaid programmers show up and say "oh, $3000/mo for a 1BR? no problem!" | 16:42 |
| roksprok | i was hoping berekely would be a bit less housing-boomish | 16:43 |
| brownies | berkeley is better, yes, but still very high demand. | 16:43 |
| roksprok | but i guess there are plenty of startups there | 16:43 |
| brownies | like i said, the best thing you can do is start looking... like, right now. | 16:44 |
| brownies | i've gone to open-houses with a crowd of people who all show up at the same time | 16:44 |
| yashgaroth | is oakland still cheap or did it get gentrified? | 16:44 |
| brownies | oakland is in the process of getting gentrified; it'll probably take a couple more years | 16:44 |
| brownies | i think it's slightly cheaper but that comes with all the usual caveats | 16:46 |
| kanzure | like getting shanked. | 16:47 |
| kanzure | or pooped on. | 16:47 |
| roksprok | ugh the poop better be an urban legend | 16:47 |
| kanzure | ask fenn, he's a professor of san francisco poop | 16:47 |
| roksprok | is that why he's never on? taking field samples? | 16:48 |
| kanzure | it's the only explanation i can think of | 16:48 |
| brownies | when i first moved to SF and was staying with my friend, i'd walk to the neighborhood coffeeshop everyday to work | 16:49 |
| brownies | one day i decided to go a bit earlier, and there was a hobo pooping on the side of the street, right by a tree on the way | 16:49 |
| brownies | we made eye contact | 16:49 |
| brownies | it was super-awkward. | 16:49 |
| kanzure | you should have brought out toilet paper from the coffeeshop's restroom | 16:49 |
| brownies | there are just crowds of homeless people in SF | 16:50 |
| brownies | you learn to ignore them | 16:50 |
| roksprok | ugh i always feel awkward around them | 16:50 |
| brownies | you'll get over it after a few weeks/months | 16:50 |
| brownies | or you can live in a nicer area of town where they don't exist | 16:50 |
| brownies | what brings you out here? | 16:51 |
| roksprok | well i may be doing an unpaid internship | 16:51 |
| kanzure | no! | 16:51 |
| kanzure | don't do it | 16:51 |
| kanzure | i'll pay you to do things. jeeze. | 16:51 |
| roksprok | well i havn't heard back from the places that would pay me | 16:52 |
| roksprok | apparently i should have looked up javascript before my python interview | 16:52 |
| kanzure | how well versed in python are you, again? | 16:53 |
| brownies | why in the hell would you do an unpaid internship? | 16:53 |
| roksprok | not very | 16:53 |
| brownies | alternately, screw those guys, and come work for me for free | 16:53 |
| roksprok | nobody will give me a paid one | 16:53 |
| roksprok | is the main reason | 16:53 |
| kanzure | brownies: this is the point where you give him the "changing the world through education" speech | 16:53 |
| brownies | why not? | 16:53 |
| brownies | kanzure: i do that after the programming interview | 16:53 |
| kanzure | brownies: because he keeps telling everyone that he sucks or something | 16:54 |
| brownies | roksprok: stop telling people that | 16:54 |
| roksprok | brownies: i don't think i could get a developer internship | 16:54 |
| brownies | dude, i could draw a smiley face on a bag of potatoes and get it a paid coding internship | 16:54 |
| kanzure | he just offered you one | 16:54 |
| roksprok | i did stop, but people still won't pay me... | 16:54 |
| brownies | people are hiring like crazy right now. | 16:54 |
| roksprok | should i just email people? | 16:55 |
| kanzure | no | 16:55 |
| roksprok | or craigslist? | 16:55 |
| kanzure | no | 16:55 |
| brownies | good god. no. | 16:55 |
| brownies | show me your resume | 16:55 |
| bkero | lol jobs | 16:56 |
| bkero | get me a job paying 140k/year to work from home | 16:56 |
| roksprok | how do you send files over irc? or email? or is there a dropbox like thing? | 16:56 |
| kanzure | bkero: it's not as hard as you think | 16:56 |
| * kanzure shifty eyes | 16:56 | |
| brownies | roksprok: just put it on dropbox and paste a link here. | 16:56 |
| bkero | kanzure: I know. Let me do it for a nonprofit. | 16:57 |
| roksprok | kk | 16:57 |
| kanzure | bkero: nonprofits don't have money, and usually their dev teams suck, except for mozilla's or possibly the oss world | 16:57 |
| bkero | kanzure: and guess where I already work :P | 16:57 |
| kanzure | yes i know you work at mozilla | 16:57 |
| bkero | I keep turning down google/facebook/twitter/linkedin because I don't want to move to San Jose | 16:58 |
| kanzure | bkero: have they incentivized you to move? | 16:58 |
| brownies | none of those people have offices in san jose o.O | 16:59 |
| bkero | kanzure: I haven't responded to the recruiters | 16:59 |
| kanzure | oh those are just recruiters | 16:59 |
| bkero | brownies: menlo park, mountain view, whatever | 16:59 |
| kanzure | ignore them | 16:59 |
| brownies | there are big differences. | 16:59 |
| bkero | Having livedin Mountain View and the east bay, it's all south bay. | 16:59 |
| brownies | hehe, i got a random recruiter email the other day. made me feel special ;) | 16:59 |
| kanzure | i got one from github -_- | 16:59 |
| kanzure | "Hi, we've noticed a lot of activity on your repo POKECRYSTAL..." | 16:59 |
| bkero | Heh, I got some from github engineers in person. I went to one of their drinkups. | 17:00 |
| brownies | haha | 17:00 |
| bkero | I'm really comfortable globetrotting, or else I'd take one of the ridiculous $ offers. | 17:01 |
| brownies | roksprok: hurry up before i get distracted | 17:02 |
| kanzure | brownies: it's in your inbox | 17:02 |
| roksprok | i am downloading dropbox | 17:03 |
| roksprok | it is taking a while | 17:03 |
| kanzure | ah in the future you might want to try kicksend | 17:03 |
| kanzure | or megaupload | 17:04 |
| brownies | roksprok: kanzure sent it to me. i'm reading. | 17:04 |
| roksprok | o ok thanks kanzure | 17:05 |
| roksprok | i like the looks of kicksend | 17:05 |
| kanzure | brownies: i also sent you the follow-up email i sent roksprok | 17:06 |
| brownies | you have great credentials | 17:06 |
| brownies | and they are presented terribly | 17:06 |
| brownies | do you know LaTeX? | 17:07 |
| roksprok | no...is that the new resume standard? | 17:07 |
| kanzure | latex is how scientific documents are typeset, plus everything else that matters | 17:08 |
| brownies | i wouldn't say "standard" but it would be nice | 17:08 |
| brownies | it's fine though. MS Word is fine. | 17:08 |
| brownies | lose the cheesy art | 17:08 |
| kanzure | you should send a pdf | 17:08 |
| brownies | you say "Objectives" and then write 1 Objective | 17:08 |
| kanzure | pdf seems less microsofty than sending a .doc around, or .docx | 17:08 |
| brownies | probably not the greatest start re: attention to detail | 17:09 |
| ParahSailin | someone said my name in here in the ;last 24 hours and i dont feel like grepping logs | 17:09 |
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| brownies | and, while we're at it, lose the Objective section entirely. | 17:09 |
| brownies | move Education up top | 17:09 |
| kanzure | ParahSailin: brownies and i were wondering about getting a lab equipment catalog with, you know, pricing information | 17:09 |
| brownies | make it 3 times longer than it is | 17:09 |
| brownies | add your GPA | 17:09 |
| brownies | and graduation date, and a line naming 3-5 relevant courses you've taken | 17:09 |
| kanzure | use the same font for everything | 17:10 |
| brownies | i guarantee no one cares about the *address* of your employer | 17:10 |
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| brownies | good god, why does the date have a bullet point next to it? | 17:10 |
| kanzure | haha maybe they will confuse it with the hospital at 2778 burnet avenue, not 2777 burnet avenue. | 17:10 |
| roksprok | so use the space for elaborating on what i did? | 17:10 |
| brownies | and why are your 3 positions listed in random order instead of chronological? | 17:10 |
| roksprok | well it is order of hours spent there | 17:11 |
| brownies | your faint gray font makes me (the hypothetical hiring manager) angry and impatient | 17:11 |
| kanzure | number of hours spent should not matter at all | 17:11 |
| brownies | why are there random dashes and indentation everywhere | 17:11 |
| roksprok | and only the top one is a real position | 17:11 |
| kanzure | don't tell them the others weren't "real" | 17:11 |
| kanzure | they were real to you. | 17:11 |
| brownies | i am informed that you created a heart valve, yet your resume does not communicate anything like that | 17:12 |
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| kanzure | designed/materials | 17:12 |
| brownies | did you publish any papers? are you a US Citizen? both those things should be on there, if true | 17:12 |
| kanzure | us citizenship should be listed, for sure | 17:12 |
| kanzure | don't put "I haven't written any papers" -_- | 17:12 |
| brownies | ^ | 17:12 |
| roksprok | well it wasn't actually creating one, it was just doing some stress analysis | 17:12 |
| kanzure | that counts. | 17:12 |
| kanzure | even though you were configuring CFD software, it counts | 17:13 |
| brownies | bleh. it's all just poorly explained. | 17:13 |
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| brownies | oh wow, we constructive-criticism'd him offline. now i feel bad. | 17:14 |
| kanzure | nah he just sucks at internetting i think | 17:14 |
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| brownies | let me download the actual DOC and spend a few minutes trying to work some magic | 17:14 |
| roksprok_ | i very much appreciate that | 17:15 |
| kanzure | oh don't fight ms word | 17:15 |
| kanzure | roksprok_: also link to your github account | 17:17 |
| kanzure | people eat that up | 17:17 |
| roksprok_ | i've been including that in the cover letter | 17:17 |
| kanzure | people delete the cover letter | 17:18 |
| roksprok_ | i thought the cover letter was the most important part? | 17:19 |
| ParahSailin | do do a cover letter | 17:19 |
| kanzure | yes they will read it, but they might save the pdf.. they will probably not download your email text and paste it into the same doc tho | 17:20 |
| roksprok_ | well i was thinking if they deleted the email i already lost | 17:20 |
| roksprok_ | er...didn't respond to the email | 17:21 |
| kanzure | no, even if they save your resume into their pile, they will probably archive/delete your email | 17:21 |
| roksprok_ | well i think if you have a pile to choose from things will not go well for me | 17:23 |
| kanzure | uh dude your resume doesn't list your university | 17:23 |
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| roksprok_ | i suppose that will be deleted with the cover letter? | 17:24 |
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| kanzure | hrm? no i was saying that if they read your email, they will save your attachment | 17:37 |
| kanzure | worst case scenario, attach your cover letter to the end of your resume (not the begining) | 17:37 |
| kanzure | *beginning | 17:37 |
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| brownies | the resume must stand alone | 17:37 |
| brownies | and it should be customized for every job you apply to | 17:37 |
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| kanzure | everyone is leaving me :( | 17:39 |
| * brownies is rapidly losing interesting in fighting with MS Word | 17:41 | |
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| kanzure | brownies: told you not to man | 17:43 |
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| kanzure | welcome back. | 17:44 |
| kanzure | did we lose anyone? | 17:44 |
| roksprok_ | yashgaroth: would biotech companies be worth persuing? or is there enough labor there that you need actual skills | 17:44 |
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| kanzure | it's just labor. i haven't seen a non-sucky biotech job yet, unless you're shooting for management. | 17:45 |
| kanzure | or to own your own biotech company. | 17:45 |
| kanzure | yashgaroth: how much would you estimate your coworkers were making? | 17:45 |
| roksprok_ | kanzure: owning my own biotech company is more the 5 year plan ;-) | 17:47 |
| * roksprok_ is going to lose power in a bit and will bbl | 17:47 | |
| roksprok_ | thank you for your help and advice brownies and kanzure | 17:48 |
| kanzure | yep no problem | 17:50 |
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| yashgaroth | depends which coworkers | 17:57 |
| yashgaroth | and worth pursuing for whom | 17:57 |
| brownies | oh, naturally | 18:03 |
| brownies | he fucking logged off before i could give him his fixed resume. | 18:03 |
| brownies | great. | 18:03 |
| kanzure | brownies: email it to him | 18:03 |
| kanzure | he listed his number, so you could call him and yell at him | 18:03 |
| brownies | i could, but i've already spent far too much time on this. | 18:03 |
| kanzure | my hobby: finding websites that get dmca complaints | 18:12 |
| kanzure | http://www.chillingeffects.org/dmca512c/notice.cgi?NoticeID=367508 | 18:12 |
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| kanzure | hi skorket | 18:40 |
| skorket | hey kanzure | 18:40 |
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| joshcryer | http://www.theverge.com/2012/5/21/3033634/leap-3d-motion-control-system-video | 19:06 |
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| jrayhawk | Checking ...error: /usr/share/libquvi-scripts/lua/website/youtube.lua:112: This video has been removed by the user. (code=100) | 20:31 |
| kanzure | jrayhawk: you disappoint me for actually trying to follow youtube links. | 20:31 |
| jrayhawk | it sounded interesting :( | 20:32 |
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| jrayhawk | so... how does it make pointclouds of both sides of hands | 20:38 |
| brownies | yashgaroth: oh, thanks for all the info, btw :) | 20:48 |
| yashgaroth | np | 20:48 |
| kanzure | "And perhaps he was just taking tips from RMS, who squatted his MIT office for years after officially quitting to work on GNU." | 20:55 |
| kanzure | hrm | 20:55 |
| jrayhawk | http://web.archive.org/web/20060212034956/http://www.geocities.com/stallmanus/ (nsfw) | 21:10 |
| jrayhawk | i have since had a couple of these confirmed by other sources. | 21:11 |
| kanzure | " chose to move to Texas, and the change in rent rates and lack of state income tax resulted in an immediate %25 pay raise. RMS doesn't have that option because we have the death penalty for people like him down here." | 21:11 |
| kanzure | confirmed: we have the death penalty | 21:11 |
| kanzure | huh. didn't know that population growth thing about him. that's sccary. | 21:13 |
| kanzure | *scary | 21:13 |
| jrayhawk | i have never tried to tell a malthusian about posthuman singularity scenarios; do they listen? | 21:18 |
| kanzure | jrayhawk: if anything the paperclip scenarios, grey goo and computronium would only validate their fears :p | 21:19 |
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| Steel2 | I am sort of curious what the breakdown of this channel is in terms of what people think will happen :) | 21:20 |
| kanzure | the malthusian won't listen | 21:20 |
| kanzure | i don't think there'll be much of a difference opinion on that point around here. | 21:20 |
| jrayhawk | it seems like they'd want their fears validated, and there'd be a certain amount of relief in the knowledge that attempting to create a sustainable humanity is completely optional | 21:21 |
| Steel2 | nah, I meant degree/type of singularity, takeoff speed, what people think it would look at etc. | 21:21 |
| kanzure | Steel2: why would that be important | 21:21 |
| Steel2 | people get pissed at me when I say I want positive sum economies | 21:21 |
| kanzure | you can't just take a bunch of opinions and say that's the future | 21:21 |
| kanzure | Steel2: you should use http://theuncertainfuture.com/ | 21:21 |
| Steel2 | kanzure: I didn't say it was. I said I was curious | 21:21 |
| Steel2 | about the breakdown | 21:21 |
| Steel2 | in this channel | 21:21 |
| kanzure | source code is here: http://github.com/kanzure/uncertainfuture | 21:21 |
| jrayhawk | I think this channel is half SL3 and half SL4, in lesswrong terms | 21:22 |
| Steel2 | my actual predictions when I make them generally go to techcast, but I don't know enough about the field to make a statement on AI | 21:22 |
| kanzure | jrayhawk: that's not lesswrong terms! | 21:23 |
| Steel2 | jrayhawk: not what people are comfortable with--what they think will actually happen | 21:23 |
| Steel2 | I'm comfortable with SL4, but I don't know precisely what it will look like | 21:23 |
| kanzure | Steel2: i don't think your method of predicting the future is useful, and you suck | 21:23 |
| Steel2 | you don't know my method of predicting the future, I'm not comfortable sharing until I quantify it better, and we all suck :) | 21:24 |
| kanzure | i see no other practical reason you would want to see their opinions | 21:24 |
| jrayhawk | he's got you there | 21:24 |
| Steel2 | kanzure: Because I enjoy listening to people's opinions | 21:24 |
| Steel2 | lol | 21:24 |
| Steel2 | or seeing the breakdown | 21:24 |
| kanzure | just because people have them? | 21:24 |
| Steel2 | seeing how their brains tick | 21:24 |
| Steel2 | yes | 21:24 |
| Steel2 | because they are interesting | 21:24 |
| Steel2 | because people are interesting | 21:24 |
| kanzure | no they're not | 21:25 |
| Steel2 | subjective | 21:25 |
| kanzure | /kick Steel2 | 21:25 |
| kanzure | gah it's not working | 21:25 |
| kanzure | how do i get him out | 21:25 |
| kanzure | oh goodddddd | 21:25 |
| kanzure | *goddddd | 21:25 |
| Steel2 | really? this is what gets you to kick me? the fact I find people's views and opinions fascinating? | 21:25 |
| Steel2 | lol | 21:25 |
| kanzure | note that i haven't actually kicked you | 21:26 |
| Steel2 | fair point :) | 21:26 |
| jrayhawk | hey guys lets talk about philosophy | 21:26 |
| kanzure | adfadklfldfjaldkfjkadkla | 21:26 |
| jrayhawk | hey man that's not very intelligent. i think you should be more intelligent, kanzure. | 21:26 |
| kanzure | more what now? | 21:26 |
| kanzure | so let's imagine for a moment that people respond to Steel2, someone brings up ai, someone brings up biotech, someone brings up stock prices | 21:27 |
| kanzure | i'd have to explain to each of them why they are probably wrong | 21:27 |
| kanzure | when you ask for general opinions about the singularity, you will get philosophical answers | 21:28 |
| kanzure | you could just as easily randomly generate a set of opinions about the singularity | 21:29 |
| kanzure | Steel2: would that make you happy | 21:29 |
| Steel2 | I'm more curious precisely what order people think techs will come in, why, when, how the general public will react, etc. | 21:29 |
| kanzure | ok, i can randomly generate that data for you | 21:30 |
| kanzure | i don't see the point? | 21:30 |
| Steel2 | Because I find people and their views interesting and you don't. | 21:30 |
| kanzure | ok, so if i make pretend that it's actually people with that data, you would be entertained? | 21:31 |
| Steel2 | I'd probably want to talk to some of them :P | 21:31 |
| Steel2 | this is a dead end discussion. | 21:31 |
| kanzure | that's how i felt about ray's book sorta | 21:32 |
| kanzure | Steel2: you sound like the kinda person who would get a hardon about http://canonizer.com/ | 21:34 |
| Steel2 | Wow, talk about verbal diarrhea | 21:34 |
| kanzure | scroll down | 21:34 |
| kanzure | jrayhawk: you might be interested in noting that that site was built by the lds church | 21:35 |
| jrayhawk | not sure what to think about that | 21:37 |
| kanzure | haha | 21:37 |
| kanzure | actually, there was a very thorough criticism of canonizer.com by someone who used to write thorough criticisms of eliezer's epistemology | 21:38 |
| * kanzure digs through email | 21:39 | |
| jrayhawk | i mean, it's obvious constructing a model of reality by consensus is untenable, but it's not clear that they're trying to do that, here. | 21:40 |
| Steel2 | I think the thing that offends me most about EY is the MWI | 21:41 |
| Steel2 | like, a lot of stuff irritates me | 21:41 |
| Steel2 | but the MWI just sets me off | 21:41 |
| kanzure | "But in an *interesting world* of combinatorial explosion of indirect consequences, and worse yet, critically underspecified inputs to any such supposed moral calculations, no system of reasoning can get very far betting on longer-term *specific* consequences." | 21:42 |
| kanzure | "Rather the moral agent must necessarily fall back on heuristics, fundamentally hard-to-gain wisdom based on increasingly effective interaction with relevant aspects of the environment of interaction, promoting **in principle** a model of evolving values increasingly coherent over increasing context, with effect over increasing scope of consequences." | 21:42 |
| kanzure | (note: this is why philosophy gets banned) | 21:42 |
| * kanzure is still digging | 21:43 | |
| Steel2 | man, that's not that bad | 21:44 |
| Steel2 | at least it's not heidegger | 21:44 |
| * Steel2 dodges. | 21:44 | |
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| kanzure | accuracy/precision.. http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/2008-October/046099.html no.. that's not it.. | 21:46 |
| kanzure | google is really bad at searching 5+ year old email | 21:50 |
| kanzure | jrayhawk: aha http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/2006-December/031465.html | 21:54 |
| kanzure | "However, it's not clear to me whether your vision is to rank predominately according to popularity/supporting votes, or whether you see the need to rank somehow according to (still subjective) measure(s) of relative merit?" | 21:54 |
| kanzure | hrm, no | 21:54 |
| jrayhawk | it seems useful as memetic epidemiology | 21:55 |
| docl | The interesting thing in this channel is kanzure telling people why they're wrong. :) | 21:56 |
| jrayhawk | tracking changes over time, finding correlations, making policy decisions based on impact, playing with regression analysis, etc. | 21:56 |
| kanzure | > Absolutely. As one example, someone's net worth or | 21:56 |
| kanzure | > performance scores in such prediction markets could be yet | 21:56 |
| kanzure | > another data source that canonizers could use to judge the | 21:56 |
| kanzure | > value or reputation of a person's vote. The two systems | 21:56 |
| kanzure | > definitely fit well together and I definitely figure there is | 21:56 |
| kanzure | > great collaboration possibilities with these two types of efforts. | 21:56 |
| kanzure | but he was also using it as a sort of mimetic relativism iirc | 21:56 |
| kanzure | heck the name is canonizer :P | 21:56 |
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| kanzure | hi klafka what's up | 21:57 |
| klafka | hey | 21:57 |
| klafka | working on job apps | 21:58 |
| klafka | i made a webapp that tells you whether you have cancer or not | 21:58 |
| jrayhawk | i wanna try | 21:58 |
| klafka | yeah 1 sec gotta finish it up and deploy it | 21:58 |
| kanzure | jrayhawk: one of the emails that popped up is "singularity summit on foxnews" how fitting.. | 21:59 |
| kanzure | jrayhawk: i'd like to search my email backup for files containing both the words 'allbright' and 'canonizer', how do i do this with grep without line grepping? | 22:00 |
| jrayhawk | notmuch | 22:00 |
| kanzure | i haven't indexed it yet | 22:00 |
| jrayhawk | the less good answer is grep -rl allbright | xargs grep -l canonizer | 22:02 |
| jrayhawk | err, grep -rl allbright mail.google/ | xargs grep -l canonizer | 22:03 |
| jrayhawk | or whatever your mail store is called | 22:03 |
| jrayhawk | but you should really get friendly with notmuch if you have the disk space for it | 22:03 |
| kanzure | good ol trusty xargs | 22:04 |
| kanzure | gah even ls is failing in this folder | 22:05 |
| kanzure | it's only 8409 files | 22:06 |
| jrayhawk | if you turn dircolors off, your life will get a lot better. | 22:06 |
| jrayhawk | Then it's only a readdir() instead of a readdir and 8409 stat()s | 22:06 |
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| kanzure | jrayhawk: ok i'm giving up until grep finishes. | 22:14 |
| klafka | hey has anyone pushed to heroku a python app with a locally hosted dependency ? | 22:18 |
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| kanzure | klafka: yes | 22:21 |
| kanzure | klafka: most people just host it on github or something | 22:22 |
| kanzure | if you need it to be private, then you should setup a remote private repo | 22:22 |
| kanzure | heroku has random public keys for each instance slug compilation, so you can't use key authentiation | 22:22 |
| kanzure | http://stackoverflow.com/a/10111002/687783 | 22:23 |
| kanzure | please upvote my answer :p | 22:23 |
| klafka | ah i can just throw it up on github ? | 22:23 |
| kanzure | absolutely | 22:23 |
| kanzure | gem 'my_gem', :git => 'https://my_username:my_password@github.com/my_github_account/my_repo.git', :ref => 'revision_no' | 22:23 |
| kanzure | (or you can do a public git repo) | 22:23 |
| kanzure | oh, right, python.. uhh | 22:23 |
| kanzure | i'm pretty sure your dependencies work similarly with python | 22:23 |
| jrayhawk | is 'kanzure' a funny spelling for 'cancer' | 22:24 |
| kanzure | "Anything that works with a standard pip requirements file will work as expected on Heroku." | 22:24 |
| kanzure | "Thanks to pip’s Git support, you can install a Python package that is hosted on a remote Git repository." | 22:24 |
| kanzure | "git+git://github.com/kennethreitz/requests.git" | 22:24 |
| kanzure | oh neat, that's kennethreitz. he is my hero because of http://python-requests.org/ .. maybe heroku hired him. | 22:24 |
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| kanzure | jrayhawk: no, it's much more lame than that | 22:24 |
| jrayhawk | what the hell is a git+git url | 22:25 |
| jrayhawk | did they mean git+ssh, which is merely obsolete rather than nonsensical? | 22:25 |
| kanzure | jrayhawk: http://forum.thegamecreators.com/?m=forum_view&t=13697&b=2 | 22:26 |
| kanzure | with the risk of further embarrassing my 13 year-old self: | 22:26 |
| kanzure | http://forum.thegamecreators.com/?m=forum_view&t=7659&b=2 | 22:26 |
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| kanzure | oh god what? internet archive has my old "i'm going to make an mmorpg" blog | 22:29 |
| kanzure | http://web.archive.org/web/20040607215658/http://devskill.sytes.net/grak/ | 22:29 |
| kanzure | oh i heart that i called my site "rightfromwrong", how precognizant | 22:31 |
| jrayhawk | haha | 22:31 |
| jrayhawk | i knew a guy who said "i'm going to make an mmorpg" and then he actually did it | 22:31 |
| jrayhawk | surprisingly, it is still going | 22:31 |
| jrayhawk | http://secrets-of-asherah.com/ | 22:32 |
| kanzure | i got pretty far | 22:32 |
| kanzure | had a production crew o_o | 22:32 |
| kanzure | art, music, i did all the coding. | 22:32 |
| * kanzure uploads music | 22:33 | |
| kanzure | http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/irc/grak_theme.mp3 | 22:34 |
| mako | Why an mmorpg, and was the design directive to addict and please, or to enrich? | 22:38 |
| kanzure | well i was 13 so the "why" is "i didn't know any better" | 22:39 |
| mako | [and that music sounds like adventure.] | 22:39 |
| kanzure | yes it was an adventure mmo.. thing | 22:39 |
| Steel2 | I'm still looking forward to Guild Wars 2 | 22:39 |
| kanzure | reading the source code is a terrible nightmare | 22:41 |
| kanzure | 997 const char* returnCImageFNWithThisGlobalID(int id) { | 22:41 |
| kanzure | hrm it looks like i was using opengl and sdl | 22:42 |
| kanzure | .. and lua. | 22:42 |
| kanzure | 269 dest2.x = (((this->x*global->ents->returnCImage(this->images[1])->image->w)/global->ents->returnCImage(this->images[1])->image->w))-CamX; | 22:42 |
| kanzure | who the hell writes code like that | 22:42 |
| mako | It's a long road. | 22:43 |
| klafka | wtf | 22:44 |
| kanzure | clearly i was a much better programmer when i was 13 ;) | 22:44 |
| -!- Helleshin [~talinck@cpe-174-101-208-182.cinci.res.rr.com] has joined ##hplusroadmap | 22:54 | |
| mako | So what's wrong with that is that it's got repeated sections, and that could have been made much clearer with a variable. Maybe 13yo you thought that would invoke an overhead? | 22:54 |
| kanzure | oh there are other terrible things about my design | 22:55 |
| kanzure | like, using lua | 22:55 |
| kanzure | and i had this CEntity class that represented everything | 22:55 |
| -!- ThomasEgi [~thomas@pppdyn-25.stud-ko.rz-online.net] has joined ##hplusroadmap | 22:55 | |
| -!- ThomasEgi [~thomas@pppdyn-25.stud-ko.rz-online.net] has quit [Changing host] | 22:55 | |
| -!- ThomasEgi [~thomas@panda3d/ThomasEgi] has joined ##hplusroadmap | 22:55 | |
| mako | Heh, my first experiments in C# did that too. | 22:56 |
| mako | Don't take having started with C# as being representative of my inclinations... | 22:57 |
| mako | Wait, isn't using lua advisable? | 23:00 |
| kanzure | not really | 23:01 |
| kanzure | why not just use python or ruby | 23:01 |
| mako | Lua's faster, hence using it for games. | 23:05 |
| mako | Still I kind of agree. | 23:05 |
| lichen | i couldnt code worth shit at 13 | 23:05 |
| lichen | i think i was only about on the 'making maps for warcraft' level | 23:05 |
| lichen | in other news, im playing around with Qt right now | 23:06 |
| lichen | neat stuff | 23:06 |
| kanzure | lichen: would you be willing to become the resident nanoengineer qt guru :P | 23:06 |
| kanzure | http://github.com/kanzure/nanoengineer | 23:06 |
| kanzure | it uses qt 4.4 and needs to be upgraded to qt 4.8 | 23:06 |
| kanzure | annnd i haven't done this yet =( | 23:06 |
| lichen | um | 23:06 |
| kanzure | theoreticaly the api is the same for 4.4 and 4.8 | 23:06 |
| lichen | so just digging through and changing calls? | 23:06 |
| kanzure | in theory yes.. but it's actually a worse state than that | 23:07 |
| lichen | heh | 23:07 |
| lichen | it always is | 23:07 |
| kanzure | there are other non-qt-related things that are borked | 23:07 |
| lichen | ill bookmark it and put it on my todo | 23:07 |
| lichen | somewhat late right now | 23:07 |
| lichen | if its not a ridiculous amount of work i might do it | 23:08 |
| kanzure | it's a ridiculous amount of work :) | 23:09 |
| lichen | damn this program looks intense | 23:09 |
| kanzure | yes sir | 23:09 |
| lichen | you do some interesting things with your spare time :p | 23:10 |
| kanzure | most of them involve pasting text into this irc channel | 23:10 |
| lichen | ive noticed | 23:10 |
| lichen | hah | 23:10 |
| lichen | i mostly just idle in irc | 23:10 |
| lichen | i find that if i spend too much time in irc i dont get anything done | 23:10 |
| kanzure | other recent thing is https://github.com/kanzure/pokecrystal/tree/master/extras/#readme https://github.com/kanzure/pokecrystal/commits | 23:11 |
| -!- ThomasEgi [~thomas@panda3d/ThomasEgi] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] | 23:11 | |
| lichen | lol | 23:12 |
| lichen | whyyy | 23:13 |
| kanzure | well, you learned tonight that when i was 13 i built an mmo, but when i was 11 and 12 i was a pokemon master and released gameshark codes obsessively | 23:13 |
| kanzure | anyway, it's nice to finally have the source code to pokemon | 23:13 |
| lichen | i came into that convo at the end | 23:13 |
| lichen | yeah | 23:13 |
| lichen | your childhood outnerds mine pretty hard | 23:14 |
| kanzure | "i played pokemon" lots of people did :p | 23:14 |
| lichen | yeah, i played pokemon | 23:14 |
| lichen | from like | 23:14 |
| lichen | ages 5-10 | 23:14 |
| lichen | or whatever | 23:15 |
| kanzure | five? hrm.. | 23:15 |
| lichen | its a pretty good rpg | 23:15 |
| kanzure | that would make you.. hrm. younger than me. | 23:15 |
| lichen | dude, i was born in 1990 | 23:15 |
| kanzure | me too | 23:15 |
| lichen | oh then idk | 23:15 |
| kanzure | how'd you play it when you were 5? | 23:15 |
| kanzure | okay then | 23:15 |
| lichen | bad memory? | 23:15 |
| kanzure | but yeah, source code. | 23:15 |
| kanzure | https://raw.github.com/kanzure/pokecrystal/master/main.asm | 23:16 |
| lichen | all in asm | 23:16 |
| lichen | like a boss | 23:16 |
| lichen | wait you commented this all out too? | 23:16 |
| kanzure | yes | 23:16 |
| kanzure | it also compiles | 23:16 |
| lichen | rofl | 23:16 |
| lichen | i could not be motivated to do that | 23:17 |
| kanzure | well i was very disappointed to learn that pressing A when you threw a pokeball did not increase your chances of success | 23:17 |
| lichen | nothing does, does it? | 23:17 |
| kanzure | status effects help | 23:18 |
| lichen | ah | 23:18 |
| lichen | what about speed? | 23:18 |
| kanzure | except in crystal where they had a bug in their code that made burn/freeze not help you | 23:19 |
| lichen | freeze was always overpowered though | 23:19 |
| lichen | they never unfreeze unless you use fire on them | 23:19 |
| Steel2 | Hrm. | 23:19 |
| -!- bugcatcher [~bugcatche@131.252.130.248] has joined ##hplusroadmap | 23:20 | |
| kanzure | bugcatcher: test | 23:20 |
| bugcatcher | kanzure, Hyuck-hyuck-hyuck! You're challenging me to a battle? Hah! You're nuts, but you have guts! I like that! If you can beat me, I'll tell you a password to the boss's room! | 23:20 |
| lichen | ... | 23:20 |
| kanzure | <--- king of the nerds | 23:20 |
| lichen | dont tell me you wrote a bot from scratch just for that | 23:20 |
| kanzure | yep | 23:21 |
| lichen | hah | 23:21 |
| kanzure | try him out | 23:21 |
| lichen | bugcatcher: A | 23:21 |
| bugcatcher | lichen, I don't care if you're lost. You show up here, you're nothing but a victim! | 23:21 |
| lichen | is it just the bugcatcher lines | 23:22 |
| bugcatcher | lichen, Who are you? | 23:22 |
| lichen | or all trainers | 23:22 |
| kanzure | that's from UndergroundPathSwitchRoomEntrances | 23:22 |
| kanzure | lichen: all trainers | 23:22 |
| lichen | im now tempted to make a bot with random quotes from deus ex characters | 23:24 |
| lichen | because that game has some ridiculous quotes | 23:24 |
| kanzure | like what | 23:24 |
| lichen | https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UfowSe522yI&feature=related | 23:25 |
| lichen | dont tell me you havent played deus ex | 23:25 |
| kanzure | i have not | 23:26 |
| kanzure | i am an awful person | 23:26 |
| lichen | :| | 23:26 |
| lichen | youre in ##hplusroadmap | 23:26 |
| lichen | and a video game nerd | 23:26 |
| lichen | and havent played deus ex somehow | 23:26 |
| yashgaroth | wait what | 23:26 |
| kanzure | hey i protected myself by saying upfront that i'm awful | 23:26 |
| lichen | hahaha | 23:26 |
| kanzure | i'm really really awful | 23:26 |
| kanzure | how about that? | 23:26 |
| lichen | seven awfuls | 23:27 |
| yashgaroth | http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vxi7JRJrod4 :D brb | 23:28 |
| kanzure | i'm busy watching tng edits http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aXvCSG4Ff60 | 23:29 |
| lichen | https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=whtNHRYJnrU | 23:30 |
| lichen | possibly the best deus ex hr video | 23:30 |
| brownies | kanzure: what'd you use to make the bot? | 23:32 |
| kanzure | brownies: twisted | 23:33 |
| brownies | kanzure: O.O why | 23:33 |
| lichen | oh i thought you coded that from scratch | 23:33 |
| lichen | nerd points subtracted | 23:33 |
| kanzure | twisted.words.protocols import irc | 23:33 |
| kanzure | bugcatcher: | 23:34 |
| bugcatcher | kanzure, Such darling #MON. Let's show our #MON together at the same time. | 23:34 |
| kanzure | bugcatcher: | 23:34 |
| bugcatcher | kanzure, My chance of losing? Not even one percent! | 23:34 |
| kanzure | bug | 23:34 |
| kanzure | bugcatcher: | 23:34 |
| bugcatcher | kanzure, You've got dazzling style! | 23:34 |
| lichen | i think | 23:34 |
| -!- bugcatcher [~bugcatche@131.252.130.248] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] | 23:34 | |
| lichen | you have a bug there | 23:34 |
| kanzure | hrm? | 23:34 |
| lichen | #MON | 23:34 |
| kanzure | #MON is how it was represented in the game | 23:34 |
| kanzure | it was a single symbol | 23:34 |
| lichen | i know but i mean you should replace it with something context sensitive | 23:35 |
| lichen | also, am i the only one reading that as innuendo? | 23:35 |
| lichen | [23:34:18] <bugcatcher> kanzure, Such darling #MON. Let's show our #MON together at the same time. | 23:35 |
| kanzure | pokemon is a weird, weird thing when you reexamine it | 23:35 |
| lichen | its dogfighting for kids | 23:35 |
| lichen | lets send a bunch of 10 year olds out into the wild with no supervision | 23:35 |
| lichen | to catch wild animals | 23:35 |
| kanzure | or to catch bugs | 23:35 |
| lichen | and have them fight each other in unstructured tournaments | 23:35 |
| lichen | GREAT IDEA | 23:35 |
| kanzure | i think bug hunting is a good hobby for a kid to have :p | 23:36 |
| lichen | lol | 23:36 |
| lichen | it isnt if the bug is as big as your torso | 23:36 |
| lichen | uhg | 23:39 |
| lichen | my most hated part of programming | 23:39 |
| lichen | dealing with random libraries and depedencies and compatibilities | 23:40 |
| kanzure | isn't that the only thing that programming is? | 23:40 |
| lichen | hah | 23:40 |
| mako | Real world programming, yes. | 23:42 |
| mako | World-changing and stimulating programming, no. | 23:42 |
| lichen | indeed | 23:42 |
| lichen | all im trying to do right now i get qt and qwt to work together | 23:42 |
| lichen | which meant downloading the source of both and recompiling it all because they couldnt seem to compile them both with the same compiler | 23:43 |
| lichen | busy work :\ | 23:43 |
| kanzure | that sounds the complete opposite of thrilling. | 23:48 |
| kanzure | "Hi, Eliezer Yudkowsky New things are always happening here at Twitter HQ. We're growing at a rapid pace, and our commitment to simplicity, transparency, and reaching every person on the planet continues." | 23:49 |
| kanzure | why am i getting this | 23:49 |
| Steel2 | I want to learn Modelica and System Modeler | 23:49 |
| mako | Hahah | 23:49 |
| mako | Did you impersonate Eliezer at some point for kicks or something? | 23:52 |
| kanzure | Steel2: perhaps try jmodelica | 23:52 |
| kanzure | mako: this is possibly me? http://twitter.com/FakeEliezer | 23:52 |
| Steel2 | System modeler is $3500 :( | 23:52 |
| Steel2 | (I have no practical reason to learn either of these) | 23:52 |
| kanzure | no really.. try jmodelica | 23:52 |
| Steel2 | I might after I settle down | 23:52 |
| Steel2 | I really want to know what proprietary software BAH uses for their internal wargames | 23:52 |
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| lichen | augh | 23:55 |
| lichen | now i need to download perl | 23:55 |
| lichen | because someohw that is not on my computer | 23:55 |
| lichen | so i cant compile qt | 23:55 |
| Steel2 | I wonder what I'm going to have to learn for work... | 23:55 |
| kanzure | lichen: sudo apt-get install qmake | 23:55 |
| Steel2 | probably just enough C++ and more matlab to duct tape ABAQUS together | 23:55 |
| lichen | yeaaaah, i'm on windows | 23:56 |
| kanzure | well there's your problem | 23:56 |
| lichen | yeah | 23:56 |
| kanzure | Steel2: i seriously doubt anyone outside of academia uses matlab | 23:56 |
| lichen | the only reason im still on windows is gaming | 23:56 |
| kanzure | bzzt wrong | 23:56 |
| kanzure | wow works perfectly on liux | 23:56 |
| kanzure | *linux | 23:56 |
| lichen | and that i cant be bothered to switch boots | 23:56 |
| kanzure | and lots of steam-crap | 23:56 |
| Steel2 | kanzure: Nope, I think work does iirc | 23:56 |
| lichen | its hit and miss | 23:56 |
| lichen | and i dont play wow | 23:56 |
| Steel2 | I'll know in 2 weeks | 23:56 |
| Steel2 | (and then won't be able to talk about it :V) | 23:57 |
| lichen | if i have lots of free time sometime maybe ill try switching to linux again | 23:57 |
| lichen | its just a mountain of effort that id usually not do | 23:57 |
| kanzure | it pays off | 23:57 |
| Steel2 | bleargh, dan finfer wants me to fly out to california a bunch | 23:58 |
| lichen | that means i now need to research distros | 23:58 |
| lichen | ive got an ubuntu partition but its... eh | 23:58 |
| lichen | id rather just wipe that and start fresh | 23:58 |
| --- Log closed Fri May 25 00:00:20 2012 | ||
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