| --- Log opened Sun Jun 03 00:00:29 2012 | ||
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| @kanzure | "Friday, June 1, 2012; Neuroscientists at Cold Spring Harbor Laboratory (CSHL) reached an important milestone today, publicly releasing the first installment out of 500 TB of data so far collected in their path-breaking project to construct the first whole-brain wiring diagram of a vertebrate brain, that of the mouse" | 07:23 |
|---|---|---|
| @kanzure | http://mouse.brainarchitecture.org/ | 07:23 |
| @kanzure | " The data consist of gigapixel images (each close to 1 billion pixels) of whole-brain sections that can be zoomed to show individual neurons and their processes, providing a "virtual microscope." | 07:24 |
| @kanzure | can anyone get this on gigapan please? :( | 07:24 |
| @kanzure | "he team's use of four tracers including both classical tracer substances as well as neurotropic viruses (attenuated or disabled viruses that infect nerve cells), provides redundancy and helps control for differing efficacies of the different tracer substances. The images one sees on the MBA Project website begininng today provide hard data on actual neuronal processesÂthe "ground truth" of neuroanatomy, in Mitra's wordsÂand do not rely on infere | 07:24 |
| @kanzure | http://brainarchitecture.org/mouse/documentation/project-white-paper | 07:24 |
| @kanzure | 2009 position papr http://www.ploscompbiol.org/article/info:doi/10.1371/journal.pcbi.1000334 | 07:25 |
| @kanzure | *paper | 07:25 |
| @kanzure | some neat connectome papers over here: http://mitraweb1.cshl.edu:8080/BrainArchitecture/pages/publications.faces | 07:26 |
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| Steel2 | yo bro | 07:45 |
| yashgaroth | oh hey | 07:45 |
| Steel2 | sup | 07:45 |
| yashgaroth | I'm on my monthly 'oh I can totally skip a night and reset my sleep schedule' | 07:45 |
| yashgaroth | it always fails, but I seem to forgot that after a month or so | 07:46 |
| yashgaroth | and the cycle repeats anew | 07:46 |
| @kanzure | no you fool you're supposed to skip /two/ nights | 07:50 |
| @kanzure | .. or was that zero? | 07:50 |
| yashgaroth | too late for zero now | 07:50 |
| @kanzure | i wonder if we can convince 3scan to work on open source neuro-slice analyzing software | 07:51 |
| @kanzure | erm.. neurohistology boundary detection software | 07:52 |
| dixiebassline | cold springs harbour is where its at | 07:58 |
| dixiebassline | has been for what, over a hundred years now? | 07:58 |
| Steel2 | yashgaroth: got 4 hours of sleep over two nights...3.5 on one .5 on the other | 08:02 |
| Steel2 | lol | 08:02 |
| yashgaroth | it's all or nothing for me | 08:02 |
| yashgaroth | oh so I will be driving up if mr ancient lasers wants a ride, but I'm heading up monday so he'd have to keep busy til friday | 08:03 |
| Steel2 | hmm | 08:04 |
| Steel2 | did you talk to him | 08:04 |
| Steel2 | on fb? | 08:04 |
| yashgaroth | nnnnnope | 08:04 |
| yashgaroth | also, based on previous experience with LA traffic, he better live outside the city proper or else | 08:07 |
| Steel2 | santa monica I think | 08:12 |
| Steel2 | add Dan Finfer | 08:12 |
| Steel2 | he's on my friends list | 08:12 |
| yashgaroth | whoa how does he know io | 08:16 |
| Steel2 | he knows everyone | 08:19 |
| @kanzure | he doesn't know me. | 08:19 |
| Steel2 | fair :P | 08:26 |
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| Steel2 | sup eudoxia | 08:28 |
| eudoxia | hey steel | 08:28 |
| Steel2 | how goes | 08:30 |
| eudoxia | pretty ordinarily so far | 08:32 |
| * ybit reaches in his bag for bones to throw and discovers he's all out | 08:56 | |
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| jmil | kanzure: are u there? | 09:25 |
| jmil | paper proofs returned, should be out very soon | 09:25 |
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| @kanzure | don't make me do things! i'm innocent! | 09:25 |
| @kanzure | oh | 09:25 |
| @kanzure | that's great | 09:25 |
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| archels | re: http://mouse.brainarchitecture.org | 09:45 |
| archels | Individual neurons? We want individual spines! :( | 09:46 |
| @kanzure | isn't this 1 nm/pixel? that's enough to get spines | 09:46 |
| @kanzure | although 20 microns in between each slice is pretty bad - a lot can happen in 20 microns | 09:47 |
| archels | I zoomed in to the maximum level on their website, but I only poked around for like 2 minutes--maybe I was looking at the wrong thing. | 09:47 |
| @kanzure | ah well, i didn't :) | 09:48 |
| archels | kanzure: What do you think of plastification as a new method for "cryonics"? | 09:48 |
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| @kanzure | no comment at the moment. | 09:49 |
| archels | I'm hopeful. | 09:53 |
| archels | Obviously you lose the chance to revive the plastified body, as opposed (putatively) to cryogenics. | 09:54 |
| @kanzure | i don't think anyone has even studied thaw-and-scan damage | 09:56 |
| archels | I expect they keep the samples frozen while scanning them. | 09:56 |
| @kanzure | given multiple slices from the same brain, freeze-thaw-scan a slice and scan another slice | 09:56 |
| @kanzure | cutting is harder if they are frozen | 09:57 |
| @kanzure | if you make the slices before freezing, you usually lose the connection info from slice to slice | 09:57 |
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| @kanzure | nevermind, i'm confusing multiple things here. | 09:57 |
| @kanzure | the point is: record while you cut into slices. :P | 09:58 |
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| archels | But we prefer to slice the sample while it's still frozen, right? | 10:07 |
| @kanzure | archels: i think it would be better to slice it pre-freezing | 10:08 |
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| lichen | lol... this blog fight is pretty dumb | 11:25 |
| chris_99 | blog fight? | 11:25 |
| lichen | http://www.antipope.org/charlie/blog-static/2012/05/deconstructing-our-future.html ---> http://www.acceler8or.com/2012/05/when-i-called-charlie-stross-a-dirty-name-transhumanist/ ---> http://amormundi.blogspot.de/2012/06/criticizing-transhumanism-is-hate-crime.html | 11:25 |
| yashgaroth | keeping track of all the inter-transhumanist feuds would take more effort than I care to muster, which is none | 11:29 |
| @kanzure | none of those blogs are worth reading | 11:34 |
| chris_99 | can you suggest any good blogs btw? | 11:34 |
| @kanzure | no. stop reading blogs. | 11:34 |
| dixiebassline | only read al jazerra and fox | 11:36 |
| dixiebassline | those are real information sources | 11:36 |
| @kanzure | what? why would you do that | 11:43 |
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| dixiebassline | lol | 11:54 |
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| Mariu | lol | 12:37 |
| eudoxia | Charles Stross' blog has some interesting things | 12:38 |
| eudoxia | those others seem to be always the same thing: "transhumanoidism is a religion" -> "yes but its a good one praise Tipler" -> "herp derp second life" | 12:38 |
| Mariu | hmm | 12:44 |
| @kanzure | eudoxia: you know what's terrible? "transhumanist events" in "second life" | 12:46 |
| eudoxia | I don't even want to know | 12:46 |
| ThomasEgi | a palm, a kingdom for a palm, i need to facepalm! | 12:46 |
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| dixiebassline | idk about a religion, but if we could get a secular transhumanist global government, we could be on the road to great things | 12:58 |
| Jora | Agreed. | 13:00 |
| archels | I shiver even at the idea of a "global government." | 13:00 |
| moriarty | archels, what are you on about? think EU but on a larger scale | 13:01 |
| moriarty | :) | 13:01 |
| dixiebassline | somethigns got to stop the traditional cycle of civilization | 13:01 |
| dixiebassline | otherwise the west will continue to fall | 13:02 |
| dixiebassline | as the east rises | 13:02 |
| dixiebassline | and i dont want to live in communist china | 13:02 |
| archels | moriarty: right on | 13:02 |
| eudoxia | a transhumanist government, even local, would be an interesting thing to see | 13:10 |
| dixiebassline | its not so much of a new idea. This guy Adam Weishaupt had what were called the 'perfectables' the beliefe that man could perfect himself to the point he no longer required the supervision of governmnets or religion. | 13:14 |
| dixiebassline | obv this drew attention from the govts and religions of the world who declared him evil | 13:14 |
| dixiebassline | lol | 13:14 |
| dixiebassline | i kind of see h+ as an extention of that philosophy | 13:15 |
| Jora | What is the definition of perfection? That is entirely subjective. | 13:21 |
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| dixiebassline | sort of like the concept of utopia ? | 13:22 |
| dixiebassline | in this case though after some point perfection would be left to the individual | 13:22 |
| dixiebassline | i gues that point woudl be the h+ ? | 13:23 |
| dixiebassline | the point being that we could assume that all adults woudl from that point on make reasonable decisions without further guidance from other adults | 13:24 |
| eudoxia | reminds me of this quote "Humans are too stupid for anarchy. We become gods first, then anarchists." | 13:27 |
| klafka | i can't believe people use second life | 13:29 |
| klafka | i thought they mainly used it for weird fetishes | 13:29 |
| dixiebassline | yeah humans are too stupid for anarchy | 13:30 |
| dixiebassline | they need to become gods first | 13:30 |
| dixiebassline | nice | 13:30 |
| klafka | http://www.wired.com/underwire/2012/03/vernor-vinge-geeks-guide-galaxy/all/ | 13:30 |
| eudoxia | klafka: I know, right? | 13:31 |
| AlonzoTG | What do you do when you are confronted by someone who is in the 98th percentile in terms of IQ and intellectual achievement comes to you and basically implies that he is working towards coercive uploading you, your cat, and everyone you know? | 13:31 |
| dixiebassline | lol the 2nd google result for searching for that quote comes up to a site ive already got bookmarked | 13:31 |
| eudoxia | is that an Accelerando quote? | 13:32 |
| dixiebassline | mike price | 13:33 |
| dixiebassline | apparently | 13:33 |
| dixiebassline | http://www.aleph.se/Trans/Cultural/Art/memer.txt | 13:33 |
| AlonzoTG | I still have a chapter left in Accelerando, | 13:33 |
| eudoxia | I meant what AlonzoTG posted | 13:33 |
| AlonzoTG | not terribly eager to read it though. =\ | 13:33 |
| eudoxia | I thought the first two parts were good | 13:34 |
| AlonzoTG | no, I was just thinking about that, | 13:34 |
| eudoxia | oh | 13:34 |
| eudoxia | the thing about the cat upload made me think it was from Accelerando | 13:34 |
| AlonzoTG | The uploaders are also generally extremely high-IQ people that it is difficult NOT to take what they say as a deadly serious threat. | 13:34 |
| strangewarp | Accelerando started great and ended .. okay, I guess | 13:34 |
| strangewarp | klafka: Even the people who use Second Life for weird fetishes end up hitting a wall of malaise after a while I think, since it's all imagery, no sensation | 13:35 |
| AlonzoTG | Even fullscreen on a 24" monitor, the avatars are about 2 inches tall. | 13:36 |
| AlonzoTG | and the engine is limited to the point of being completely crippled. | 13:36 |
| eudoxia | forever in beta | 13:36 |
| Mariu | lol | 13:36 |
| AlonzoTG | The recient UI changes have rendered it completely unusable. | 13:36 |
| eudoxia | soon all the weird fetish people will move on to using Google Glasses to overlay furry porn on normal humans | 13:37 |
| eudoxia | that's kind of an interesting computer vision problem | 13:37 |
| AlonzoTG | =\ | 13:37 |
| AlonzoTG | not my thing. | 13:37 |
| AlonzoTG | But then I'm several deviations away from anything recognisable. | 13:37 |
| eudoxia | aren't we all? | 13:38 |
| Mariu | I would love to play a game where you could feel, hear the wind, watch dark-grey clouds on the sky, and hear distant deep thunder sounds. Even feel tiny rain droplets | 13:39 |
| @kanzure | AlonzoTG: i don't think "IQ" has anything to do with "coercive uploading", sorry bro | 13:40 |
| AlonzoTG | yeah, I've been contemplating a neural interface system that'd do that. | 13:40 |
| @kanzure | why do you want to build a coercive interface ? | 13:41 |
| @kanzure | that doesn't sound productive | 13:41 |
| AlonzoTG | It's effectively post-singularity tech though, | 13:41 |
| @kanzure | ((i also think that someone with "low IQ" could coerce you to do things; so i don't see what IQ has to do with it)) | 13:55 |
| Jora | that would be a cool interface mariu | 13:56 |
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| rigel | wow do we talk a lot about iq in here? | 14:15 |
| @kanzure | no | 14:15 |
| @kanzure | i try to stop them :( | 14:15 |
| @kanzure | i fail often | 14:15 |
| rigel | i can troll people who talk about iq all day and twice on sunday | 14:16 |
| @kanzure | rigel: you are very welcome to proceed with said trolling | 14:16 |
| rigel | its almost unsporting | 14:16 |
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| @kanzure | rigel: so, the phantomjs framework i'm writing will use a message queue | 14:28 |
| @kanzure | rigel: https://gist.github.com/80badcf6c66c7a3d8d8e | 14:28 |
| rigel | im not sure what that means/implies | 14:41 |
| @kanzure | imagine you are in the unfortunate position of managing a few thousand phantomjs instances | 14:42 |
| @kanzure | a queue provides a way to let each worker read upcoming tasks | 14:42 |
| rigel | javascript everywhere, that would be unfortunate | 14:42 |
| @kanzure | javascript is very unfortunate, yes. | 14:43 |
| rigel | i think js and php are both solid arguments against your thesis of human intelligence etc | 14:43 |
| @kanzure | js doesn't seem as poorly designed as php's api | 14:44 |
| rigel | clearly i need to work on my programming chops | 14:46 |
| rigel | perhaps i will have some time in 2018 after my residency is completed | 14:46 |
| * rigel pencils it in in his day-timer | 14:46 | |
| moriarty | rigel, what residency? | 14:46 |
| rigel | the thing you do after medical school is nominally over | 14:47 |
| moriarty | rigel, yes, what residency? neurology, or? | 14:47 |
| moriarty | :-) | 14:47 |
| rigel | oh i have no idea | 14:47 |
| rigel | primary care of some sort, most likely | 14:47 |
| dixiebassline | if you're into that sort of thing :P | 14:47 |
| rigel | unless i do medical genetics or oncology or addiction medicine or clinical informatics in addition to any of those | 14:48 |
| moriarty | ah bioinformatics slant | 14:48 |
| rigel | clinical informatics, not bioinformatics | 14:48 |
| dixiebassline | last thing id want to do is be around sick people all day | 14:48 |
| dixiebassline | or old people | 14:48 |
| dixiebassline | or old sick people with cancer | 14:48 |
| dixiebassline | logans run ftw | 14:48 |
| rigel | bioinformatics scares me, i took a class on it for my masters and it was like learning that all the stuff you used in day to day existence as a bench researcher was essentially black magic | 14:49 |
| moriarty | same difference | 14:49 |
| moriarty | they call it translational bioinformatics these days or whatever | 14:49 |
| rigel | all of the assumptions that the bioinformatics field is based on need constant re-evaluation, which noone does | 14:49 |
| @kanzure | btw, it *is* black magic | 14:50 |
| rigel | oh, i know | 14:50 |
| rigel | my professor's reply was "it's black magic, but it works!" | 14:50 |
| @kanzure | i wish there was some way to make it.. not black magic | 14:50 |
| yashgaroth | "...sometimes" | 14:50 |
| rigel | define "works" there, miss | 14:50 |
| moriarty | it's an emergent field, black magic will disappear after awhile | 14:51 |
| @kanzure | mechanical insertion of plasmids directly into cells seems way more efficient than electroporation or cacl2 transformation | 14:51 |
| rigel | ah, "emergent" | 14:51 |
| rigel | another word that means "we have no fucking idea" | 14:51 |
| moriarty | once they rigorously prove its performance bounds et al | 14:51 |
| rigel | moriarty: i hope that you're being snarky | 14:51 |
| moriarty | rigel, i'm not | 14:52 |
| * kanzure gets some popcorn | 14:53 | |
| yashgaroth | so uh, doctor-programmer seems like a rare combination | 14:53 |
| dixiebassline | buckaroo banzi | 14:54 |
| @kanzure | "i wrote your dx in haskell, fuck off and die" | 14:54 |
| @kanzure | welp i'm ready for the job | 14:54 |
| @kanzure | got my trusty copy of robins, that's all i need, right? right? | 14:54 |
| rigel | yashgaroth: you'd think that all the fucking early adopters (~40% of my class has an ipad) would translate to people actually interested in using the tech effectively | 14:55 |
| rigel | but no | 14:55 |
| yashgaroth | eh, they'll all end up driving sports cars with no idea what's under the hood | 14:55 |
| rigel | there are two or three people who used to be web devs or engineers of some stripe | 14:55 |
| rigel | and thats it | 14:56 |
| rigel | i am constantly asking them questions in the hope that they will know something i dont | 14:56 |
| @kanzure | "used to be" ? | 14:56 |
| yashgaroth | that's a higher number than I'd expect, tbh | 14:56 |
| rigel | in a previous career | 14:56 |
| rigel | lots of career changers at my school | 14:56 |
| rigel | like me | 14:56 |
| rigel | i am mid-30s | 14:56 |
| rigel | older than 99% of the class | 14:56 |
| rigel | but theres a good 10% that are 28-32 | 14:57 |
| yashgaroth | but you can make doctor level money with programming, and people don't die when you throw an exception | 14:57 |
| @kanzure | i do | 14:57 |
| @kanzure | every time you throw an exception, a little part of me dies | 14:57 |
| rigel | yashgaroth: the career changers, i've found, are a little less concerned with money | 14:58 |
| rigel | there are a couple of former bankers/quants too | 14:58 |
| rigel | its not like they needed to become a doctor to make money | 14:59 |
| rigel | i am not a programmer, i am a tinkerer | 14:59 |
| yashgaroth | don't tell patients you're a tinkerer | 14:59 |
| rigel | i am not into that whole paternalism either | 15:00 |
| rigel | they teach us that its bad, which i am pleased to see, but in practice it doesnt really make much difference since 75% of medical students come from families in the top two income quintiles | 15:01 |
| rigel | theyre used to making decisions for the little people | 15:01 |
| @kanzure | sounds inefficient | 15:01 |
| moriarty | top two income quintile isn't all that impressive though | 15:01 |
| Jora | md/phd is probably the best way to do med school | 15:02 |
| moriarty | heh Jora | 15:02 |
| rigel | md/phd is great if you're fresh out of college and have never experienced real life | 15:02 |
| Jora | im saying that because most of the time its all paid for..no debt haha | 15:02 |
| rigel | that's 10 years plus residency | 15:02 |
| moriarty | most of the people i know who come from top income quintiles do not even bother with college | 15:02 |
| rigel | debt is not an issue | 15:02 |
| yashgaroth | why not throw a jd in there for good measure | 15:02 |
| rigel | its all imaginary money | 15:02 |
| @kanzure | you guys should stop going to school | 15:03 |
| rigel | i will be happy to have 10% of my income taken out for the rest of my life, etc | 15:03 |
| rigel | because theres no fucking way i would have been able to get to this point otherwise | 15:03 |
| rigel | im still paying off undergrad from a state school | 15:03 |
| Jora | rigel are you just doing regular md then | 15:03 |
| rigel | the fuck do i care | 15:03 |
| Jora | oh sheesh | 15:03 |
| rigel | Jora: yeah | 15:03 |
| rigel | and i did a masters in order to get into med school because 2 application cycles got me nowhere | 15:04 |
| @kanzure | aren't you 30something? | 15:04 |
| @kanzure | did you just get out of undergrad? | 15:04 |
| rigel | sigh | 15:04 |
| @kanzure | sorry, maybe i misread | 15:04 |
| moriarty | heh | 15:04 |
| @kanzure | math, and all. | 15:04 |
| rigel | ok, so this is not stuff i normally tell people, but this is the internets | 15:04 |
| rigel | so, you know, here goes | 15:04 |
| @kanzure | in a coma for five years? :) | 15:04 |
| moriarty | rigel, by masters, do you mean an SMP? | 15:05 |
| rigel | shitty upbringing, abuse, etc, abortive first attempts at college, kicked out, kicked out of house, 4 years homeless, back in to community college, upper division at state school in a science degree, four years working at a bench, one year doing a masters, and now here | 15:05 |
| rigel | that just about accounts for everything | 15:05 |
| @kanzure | what sorta benchwork? | 15:05 |
| moriarty | nice background | 15:05 |
| rigel | cancer | 15:05 |
| @kanzure | btw i was also kicked out, haters gonna hate | 15:05 |
| rigel | my goal as a physician is to prevent the shit that happened to me from happening to other people | 15:06 |
| Jora | i never got kicked out first time around didnt want to be there & wanted to take a break | 15:06 |
| rigel | thus the primary care focus | 15:06 |
| @kanzure | (mostly because they couldn't stand waiting four months for me to leave, apparently) | 15:06 |
| moriarty | Jora, nice :-) | 15:06 |
| @kanzure | ah no i meant kicked out of my home :p | 15:06 |
| rigel | so i was 28 when i finished undergrad | 15:06 |
| moriarty | lol kanzure | 15:07 |
| @kanzure | i see, you meant kicked out of college | 15:07 |
| moriarty | i suppose it's an honour of sorts if you were kicked out from an Ivy | 15:07 |
| rigel | i wouldnt be here if it werent for student loans and throwing caution to the wind | 15:07 |
| @kanzure | so, not to be rude | 15:07 |
| @kanzure | but 4 years on a bench sounds painful | 15:08 |
| rigel | it became painful after a while | 15:08 |
| @kanzure | lots of cancer culture lines? | 15:08 |
| rigel | it was neat but i was sort of in a holding pattern waiting for school | 15:08 |
| rigel | yeah lots of tissue culture, some in vivo work (which means i will never be a surgeon) | 15:08 |
| dixiebassline | e 75% of medical students come from families in the top two income quintiles - one more reason to not like drs/ that and never trust anyone who spends that much time in school / institutionalized they might be a communist if nothing worse | 15:08 |
| rigel | i did 2 years, applied for school, that didnt pan out, so i stayed on for a little while longer while there was still some grant money and eventually had to leave | 15:09 |
| rigel | i was a temp worker in industry for like 2 months | 15:09 |
| Jora | with me i graduate with a psych degree at 23, lived at home and worked in customer service due to parental insistence, did a paralegal certificate also at parental insistence, started an mba a parental insistence, hated it, moved out and am now studying CIS and working in customer service at my own insistence. | 15:09 |
| rigel | that was a fucking fiasco | 15:09 |
| @kanzure | temp work for what | 15:09 |
| rigel | biotech. drugs. | 15:09 |
| Jora | temp work blech | 15:10 |
| yashgaroth | oh jesus, academic lab salary and a presumably unfunded masters'? | 15:10 |
| rigel | my first day in the lab was horrifying and i eventually dropped a dime to the NIH about their treatment of the animals because of it | 15:10 |
| moriarty | Jora, nice background | 15:10 |
| moriarty | i like that MBA/legal slant | 15:11 |
| Jora | :/ thats why the idea of animal research kind of scares me | 15:11 |
| rigel | nih? i dont remember, one of the fed agencies that oversees that | 15:11 |
| moriarty | Jora, there are computational approaches too | 15:11 |
| yashgaroth | fda maybe | 15:11 |
| Jora | I didn't complete my mba just took a couple classes | 15:11 |
| rigel | Jora: it depends on the animal facility | 15:11 |
| moriarty | so you'd never have to touch slicing :) | 15:11 |
| rigel | the director at my mostly-bench job was more academic and the facility director was really on top of things | 15:11 |
| Jora | Family on my arse about finishing. Yeah moriarty thats an angle Id considered | 15:11 |
| rigel | the facility director for the industry gig, though, knew about this particular PI's predilection for not giving a shit about the animals and in a subtle way tried to warn me during the interview process | 15:12 |
| rigel | but ultimately she was going along with it | 15:12 |
| rigel | so fuck her | 15:12 |
| ParahSailin | you ratted some lab out for animal abuse? | 15:12 |
| rigel | it seemed like it was just the one PI, but yeah ParahSailin | 15:12 |
| yashgaroth | pun intended I hope | 15:12 |
| @kanzure | pun license revoked | 15:13 |
| rigel | and i mean, feds investigated, said it was warranted, but ultimately no action was taken | 15:13 |
| ParahSailin | was it to punish him for something else? or because you think animals have rights? | 15:13 |
| rigel | it was because his behavior was reckless and bad science | 15:13 |
| @kanzure | i think he might mean that the standards of care weren't being followed | 15:13 |
| rigel | you dont just willy-nilly go off-protocol because youre not getting the response you want | 15:14 |
| ParahSailin | ah he was cheating | 15:14 |
| rigel | right, and it resulted in the completely forseeable death of an animal | 15:15 |
| rigel | and then he was not euthanizing the animals under enough anesthesia either | 15:15 |
| @kanzure | oh great. | 15:15 |
| rigel | i fucking sat on it too for about a year before filing a complaint | 15:16 |
| rigel | oh right, and the day of the incident, the lab director had told us all to document better because the group apparently wasnt doing so | 15:17 |
| rigel | but when i spoke to him about the incident privately he was like yeah, that doesnt really need to go in there, its fine | 15:17 |
| rigel | so i fucking put it in there and kept photocopies | 15:17 |
| rigel | spleen: vented | 15:18 |
| moriarty | lol reminds me of my former university, where animal rights activists campaigned right outside claiming that marmosets were braindamaged in the investigation of Parkinsons etc | 15:18 |
| moriarty | good times | 15:18 |
| @kanzure | rigel: so, why didn't they revoke his funding or penalize him? | 15:19 |
| @kanzure | s/his/her | 15:19 |
| rigel | they didnt tell me that | 15:19 |
| yashgaroth | because that shit happens all the time | 15:19 |
| rigel | they just said "weve completed the investigation, we believe it was warranted, we are taking no disciplinary action at this time" | 15:19 |
| @kanzure | so, it occurs to me that you want to fund people who aren't dishonest | 15:19 |
| @kanzure | ... in general. | 15:19 |
| rigel | who knows whether there was other action etc | 15:19 |
| rigel | back-channel | 15:20 |
| rigel | or whether that PI was even there anymore for that matter | 15:20 |
| ParahSailin | well what exactly is the incentive for nih bureaucrats to fund legit science | 15:20 |
| rigel | and i mean, the animal facility people could have been covering their ass enough to escape disciplinary action | 15:21 |
| rigel | though that doesnt mean that the PI doesnt have a problem | 15:21 |
| rigel | lots of gray in an institution like that | 15:21 |
| rigel | it certainly doesnt undermine my faith in those institutions, i know they are falliable but theyre the best weve got | 15:21 |
| rigel | it sure as hell reinforced my idea of industry as a cesspool though | 15:21 |
| @kanzure | what i find crazy is that these undergrads and grad students really will spend four-eight years at bench | 15:22 |
| @kanzure | these are highly skilled individuals | 15:22 |
| @kanzure | molecular biology grads are some of the craziest | 15:22 |
| @kanzure | and then if they go off to work at anaphore, they get paid like $10/hour | 15:22 |
| yashgaroth | hey now | 15:22 |
| @kanzure | haha | 15:22 |
| rigel | you know | 15:23 |
| ParahSailin | thats how a cartel works | 15:23 |
| rigel | i mean, since we're talking pipe dreams on the road to crazytown | 15:23 |
| @kanzure | choo choo | 15:23 |
| rigel | i want to do the following | 15:23 |
| rigel | 1) start a new -pathic medical school | 15:23 |
| rigel | i.e. not allo or osteopathic | 15:23 |
| @kanzure | ParahSailin: still, i wonder how things could be changed | 15:24 |
| ParahSailin | raise restrictive barriers, derive rent from the resultant labor glut | 15:24 |
| rigel | 2) teach prisoners how to do bench science | 15:24 |
| ParahSailin | violate the FUCK out of patents | 15:24 |
| rigel | because that's a solid job | 15:24 |
| @kanzure | wait, actually.. | 15:24 |
| ParahSailin | smash the barriers | 15:24 |
| @kanzure | what do you guys think the chances are i could get a smart molecular biology guy for $10/hour is? | 15:24 |
| @kanzure | like how much experience | 15:24 |
| @kanzure | and what about $15 or $20/hour? | 15:24 |
| moriarty | lol kanzure, cheap bastard | 15:24 |
| rigel | my bench job was $16 for the duration, basically | 15:24 |
| rigel | but with lots of bennies | 15:25 |
| @kanzure | bennies? | 15:25 |
| @kanzure | ok, so the going rate for good programmers is $125+/hour | 15:25 |
| yashgaroth | 20 is pretty standard for a new BS in industry, less for academia | 15:25 |
| rigel | full insurance coverage, matching 403b | 15:25 |
| @kanzure | i can totally afford to pay $15-$40/hour for some awesome biologist to dick around | 15:25 |
| rigel | but i was also working on something i found neat | 15:25 |
| rigel | cannabinoids | 15:25 |
| @kanzure | oh, hrm. full insurance. | 15:25 |
| rigel | and i was doing so in an awesome city | 15:25 |
| ParahSailin | make capital artificially expensive; get lots of artificially cheap labor | 15:26 |
| ParahSailin | profit! | 15:26 |
| yashgaroth | industry gets away without insurance | 15:26 |
| dixiebassline | the fuck are you programming for 125$ an hour | 15:26 |
| dixiebassline | my mechanic doesnt make that and he has to do work | 15:26 |
| @kanzure | dixiebassline: everything | 15:26 |
| dixiebassline | not jsut play on the computer all day | 15:26 |
| @kanzure | dixiebassline: i've been coding nonstop for years man | 15:26 |
| @kanzure | and btw, i didn't say i make 125/hour, that's just the going rate for someone with a bit of good experience | 15:26 |
| dixiebassline | i can tell | 15:26 |
| dixiebassline | ive seen your cideos | 15:26 |
| @kanzure | someone with a lot of experience can make much more | 15:26 |
| dixiebassline | videos | 15:26 |
| dixiebassline | :P | 15:26 |
| rigel | kanzure: i think you're overestimating | 15:26 |
| dixiebassline | you need to get out more | 15:26 |
| rigel | 125/hr is 250k/yr | 15:27 |
| rigel | you might get that from being a large project director | 15:27 |
| yashgaroth | he's not | 15:27 |
| rigel | or a c_o | 15:27 |
| @kanzure | rigel: sometimes people can't get constant work at $125/hr, so it doesn't end up being $250k/year constantly | 15:27 |
| @kanzure | but, right, you got the idae | 15:27 |
| @kanzure | *idea | 15:27 |
| rigel | 125/hr for contract work is very different than 125/hr for a position | 15:28 |
| @kanzure | true that. | 15:28 |
| rigel | first off youre a contractor so knock that doen by about 25% | 15:28 |
| @kanzure | what? | 15:28 |
| rigel | taxes? | 15:28 |
| @kanzure | knock what down | 15:29 |
| @kanzure | anyway, my point is, | 15:29 |
| @kanzure | if labor is so artificially cheap, it should be possible to acquire some cheap but highly skilled labor for nefarious activity | 15:29 |
| rigel | there is a nefarity premium | 15:30 |
| @kanzure | hrmm | 15:30 |
| rigel | because of associated risk | 15:30 |
| @kanzure | of being fun? | 15:30 |
| rigel | of being nefarious | 15:30 |
| @kanzure | ParahSailin: what did you estimate the "shenanigan risk" of SENS was for you? | 15:30 |
| yashgaroth | idk, "scientist at skull island" would be a strong resume booster | 15:31 |
| ParahSailin | shenanigan risk? | 15:31 |
| rigel | what is SENS | 15:31 |
| @kanzure | rigel: a 501c3 that does some longevity-related research | 15:31 |
| @kanzure | ParahSailin was one of their biologists | 15:31 |
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| rigel | oh, i saw aubrey de gray at tedmed. | 15:32 |
| rigel | what a yutz | 15:32 |
| @kanzure | aubrey is pretty fun | 15:32 |
| rigel | i am dismissive of his ideas | 15:32 |
| ParahSailin | hes almost impossible to understand talking | 15:32 |
| rigel | i didnt interact with him | 15:32 |
| @kanzure | he's very riendly | 15:32 |
| @kanzure | *friendly | 15:32 |
| ParahSailin | especially when he gets many beers into him | 15:32 |
| rigel | i just saw the beard and was like "i know who that crackpot is!" | 15:32 |
| @kanzure | his ideas are a bit outdated, but i'm ok with him promoting them | 15:32 |
| ParahSailin | and he always gets many beers in before lunch time | 15:32 |
| yashgaroth | as crackpots go, he's not bad | 15:33 |
| rigel | oh hey | 15:33 |
| rigel | check this | 15:33 |
| @kanzure | rigel: so, do you think that whole stem cell niche renewal is bogus,or what's your objection? | 15:33 |
| rigel | i think to a large extent, "stem cells" are to the current state of the art what "genetic diseases" were in 1997 | 15:34 |
| @kanzure | well i was 7 in 1997, so that doesn't help me | 15:34 |
| rigel | http://www.tedmed.com/videos-info?name=Virginia_Breen_and_Elizabeth_Bonker_at_TEDMED_2012&q=updated&year=all&sid=181&vid=244 | 15:34 |
| rigel | before the human genome was sequenced, EVERYTHING was a "possibly genetic in origin" disease | 15:35 |
| rigel | heritability, etc | 15:35 |
| rigel | because that was the "we're stumped" category | 15:35 |
| @kanzure | ok, so the idea of replacing bone marrow is "wrong" because..? | 15:35 |
| rigel | "oh yeah, the human genome will be sequenced and we'll solve ALL THESE PROBLEMS | 15:35 |
| @kanzure | i mean, maybe you're objecting to something else, like "lysosomes aren't real" | 15:35 |
| @kanzure | erm, *making an objection like "lysosomes aren't eral" | 15:36 |
| @kanzure | *real | 15:36 |
| rigel | im not as familiar with his theories because i never found them credible in the first place | 15:36 |
| rigel | because the accumulation of epigenetic insults is kind of a big deal | 15:36 |
| rigel | whether your chromatin is open of closed for a particular gene, and what determines that, is a big deal | 15:36 |
| rigel | you can mung with the stem markets a bit | 15:37 |
| @kanzure | ok, so you're objection to SENS is that "they have sucky marketing" ? | 15:37 |
| rigel | but dolly died | 15:37 |
| rigel | s/markets/markers/ | 15:37 |
| @kanzure | here are some old papers from aubrey | 15:38 |
| @kanzure | http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/longevity/Aubrey/ | 15:38 |
| rigel | im just saying it's a hell of a lot more complex than we have any idea about right now. interactions with the mitochondria, epigenetic changes at the dna or chromatin level, microRNAs, all of these are big fucking deals | 15:38 |
| @kanzure | yep | 15:38 |
| yashgaroth | by 'insults' do you mean cpg methylation or just general mutations? or both | 15:38 |
| rigel | i like investigating that stuff, and i find that basing assertions about the trasformative power of technologies that arent even mature yet is kinda dumb | 15:39 |
| rigel | yashgaroth: we dont even know what the error rate for duplication of CpG markers is | 15:39 |
| rigel | we have no fucking idea | 15:39 |
| yashgaroth | indeed | 15:39 |
| rigel | and methylated cytosine also is preferentially turned into thymine, iirc | 15:40 |
| rigel | during duplication | 15:40 |
| yashgaroth | yep | 15:40 |
| rigel | so that can drive mutation | 15:40 |
| @kanzure | rigel: he's not asserting trasnformative power of technologies, he has a research org doing experiments | 15:40 |
| @kanzure | *transformative :( | 15:40 |
| rigel | well everything i saw was grandiose claims | 15:40 |
| rigel | and honestly, we dont need to live longer | 15:41 |
| * yashgaroth gasps | 15:41 | |
| @kanzure | says who | 15:41 |
| rigel | go visit a skilled nursing facility | 15:41 |
| rigel | go visit a hospice | 15:41 |
| Jora | I think the idea is to stay young | 15:41 |
| rigel | the longer you live, the more environmental insults you accumulate, fullstop | 15:42 |
| rigel | i mean, i am strongly social-justice oriented, so i just find this idea that oh, stay young, live longer, to be really not compelling when half a billion people are at risk for malaria, and we still havent eradicated polio, etc | 15:43 |
| rigel | im fine with dying | 15:43 |
| @kanzure | ok that assumes that society can only be focused on a top-down guaranteed set of problems | 15:43 |
| @kanzure | this sounds like bullshit to me. | 15:43 |
| rigel | i dont see where you get there from what i said | 15:43 |
| @kanzure | "not compelling when half a billion people are [other big problems here]" | 15:44 |
| rigel | part of the problem with e.g. malaria is that the top-down institutions arent doing it, not enough anyway | 15:44 |
| @kanzure | it's like the same people saying "elon musk shouldn't go to mars, because i'm starving to death" | 15:44 |
| @kanzure | yes, well, most of those institutions suck, it's true | 15:44 |
| rigel | oh, i'm not saying i want to prevent him from doing whatever white people thing hes doing | 15:45 |
| @kanzure | "white people thing"? are you racist? | 15:45 |
| @kanzure | what if he was black? | 15:45 |
| rigel | just that i dont find it compelling, and have some serious suspicions about its scientific foundations | 15:45 |
| @kanzure | rocketry? | 15:45 |
| @kanzure | rocketry works man | 15:45 |
| rigel | i thought we were still talking life extension here | 15:45 |
| rigel | sens etc | 15:45 |
| @kanzure | ah, i mentioned "elon musk" a few messages ago. | 15:46 |
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| yashgaroth | to be fair, spaceflight, seasteading and life extension is 3/3 for "rich asshole" projects | 15:48 |
| rigel | yashgaroth++ | 15:49 |
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| yashgaroth | not that I don't necessarily support them, but it does look kinda bad to the lay public | 15:49 |
| ParahSailin | elon musk shouldnt get my tax money | 15:50 |
| ParahSailin | for his ev's or his spaceships | 15:50 |
| @kanzure | ParahSailin: ah so you prefer he gets your bank account balance (via paypal) | 15:51 |
| @kanzure | :P | 15:51 |
| ParahSailin | the paypal mafia all divested from paypal | 15:51 |
| @kanzure | (subtext: paypal is notorious for freezing everyone's accounts and stealing money) | 15:51 |
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| ParahSailin | thiel et al didnt get along with ebay | 15:51 |
| yashgaroth | I still think there's promise in life extension research, if you consider the (theoretical) low basement cost of biology, and 90 year olds fathering healthy kids | 15:51 |
| strangewarp | Social justice and transhumanism are only at odds until there exists sufficient transhumanism to provide social justice, and yeah, that kinda sucks | 15:52 |
| @kanzure | yashgaroth: i've heard of a 70-something year-old father, haven't seen a 90-year-old father | 15:52 |
| rigel | strangewarp: sounds like a reformulation of rawls | 15:52 |
| @kanzure | yashgaroth: elaborate? | 15:52 |
| rigel | who was a turd | 15:52 |
| @kanzure | strangewarp: sounds wrong to me. you could just make open source tech in the first place. screw all the 'social justice' bullshitting. | 15:53 |
| yashgaroth | some guy in the 1930s was 90-something, I recall | 15:53 |
| rigel | open source itself is not a panacea | 15:53 |
| rigel | there is a supply chain, and access to information is only one link | 15:53 |
| @kanzure | rigel: having the plans to make your drugs is way better than having to pay $20,000/dose for your rare blood disease | 15:53 |
| @kanzure | to a large extent, the supply chain can be replicated, although it's a lot of work :) | 15:54 |
| @kanzure | yashgaroth: bah, the 30s | 15:54 |
| yashgaroth | the question is, whether the chance of a utopia is worth the risk of a horrible oligarchic dystopia | 15:54 |
| @kanzure | utopia? what | 15:54 |
| rigel | if you live in a hut, with no refrigeration or manufacturing capacity, who gives a shit wiether its patented or not patented, it's still a fucking fairytale | 15:54 |
| yashgaroth | "utopia" | 15:54 |
| @kanzure | rigel: or you can build a refrigerator | 15:54 |
| ParahSailin | patents are slavery | 15:54 |
| @kanzure | rigel: people aren't as helpless as you might think | 15:55 |
| @kanzure | (and if they don't want to take care of themselves, that's another story) | 15:55 |
| rigel | which people? who do i think is helpless? | 15:55 |
| @kanzure | the one where a "fridge" is a "fairytale" | 15:55 |
| @kanzure | you lived homeless for years man, why didn't you build one | 15:56 |
| @kanzure | like even just an ice chest that is insulated can keep things cool | 15:56 |
| rigel | because i lived in an urban center, and i was not diabetic | 15:56 |
| @kanzure | ice is dirt cheap (or you can make your own) | 15:56 |
| rigel | where do you get ice in sub saharan africa | 15:56 |
| @kanzure | are you trolling me | 15:56 |
| rigel | am i? | 15:56 |
| rigel | why do people on the internets always accuse me of trolling just when i feel like i am making the most sense | 15:57 |
| @kanzure | you know how to freeze water, right? | 15:58 |
| @kanzure | and you know that this makes ice, right? | 15:58 |
| rigel | and you do this how in a mud hut in sub saharan africa | 15:58 |
| moriarty | hand-cranked refrigerator | 15:58 |
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| moriarty | not sure how difficult that is to fathom | 15:59 |
| moriarty | ;) | 15:59 |
| rigel | hand-cranked refrigerator? | 15:59 |
| rigel | im not sure what you mean by that | 15:59 |
| moriarty | mechanical generation for power | 15:59 |
| yashgaroth | he's joking, I hope | 15:59 |
| rigel | how many watts does an electric fridge require | 15:59 |
| ParahSailin | didnt dean kamen make a simple refrigeration unit that you could power with a wood fire | 16:00 |
| rigel | the dynamo on my bicycle puts out 3w | 16:00 |
| moriarty | or you could use a pot-in-pot refrigerator | 16:00 |
| rigel | yes, evaporative cooling | 16:00 |
| moriarty | yeah | 16:00 |
| rigel | there are limits to that, i dont think you can make ice unless ambient temp/humidity is right | 16:00 |
| @kanzure | i suppose yuo don't need ice for a fridge | 16:01 |
| @kanzure | ice was an artificial addition to that scenario | 16:01 |
| rigel | how do you know that your drugs are cool enough then, and havent been inactivated? | 16:01 |
| rigel | are you mining and smelting bimetal thermometers yourself? | 16:02 |
| rigel | how are you manufacturing drugs? | 16:02 |
| rigel | where are you getting your raw materials | 16:02 |
| rigel | we in the cities have access to this stuff | 16:02 |
| rigel | the rest of the world largely does not | 16:02 |
| @kanzure | these are a lot of questions | 16:02 |
| @kanzure | the fact that i can't type the answers quickly doesn't mean that they are impossible tasks | 16:03 |
| @kanzure | it just means that your mind is racing | 16:03 |
| rigel | theyre not impossible | 16:03 |
| @kanzure | you're right that it's a lot of work. living is tough! | 16:03 |
| rigel | most of them have relatively simple solutions | 16:03 |
| rigel | but that requires resources and time | 16:03 |
| @kanzure | sure. | 16:04 |
| @kanzure | if you don't have the resources, you find them. | 16:04 |
| rigel | making everything open source is not going to solve that problem of allocation of resources, is my central point | 16:04 |
| rigel | it helps, sure | 16:04 |
| @kanzure | allocation of resources isn't the same problem | 16:04 |
| @kanzure | i don't think "I don't have a fridge" has anything to do about allocation | 16:04 |
| @kanzure | it's largely "I haven't built a fridge yet" | 16:05 |
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| @kanzure | alright then | 16:05 |
| ParahSailin | he was pretty combative | 16:06 |
| @kanzure | if you live in the desert, you can't expect elon musk to air drop you a fridge | 16:06 |
| @kanzure | you gotta be a bit more creative than that :P | 16:06 |
| strangewarp | Hngh, a person is trying to convince me that if it were possible to build a Strong AI, then the internet would already be intelligent | 16:07 |
| strangewarp | And they are trying to use it to disprove Strong AI.. ow | 16:07 |
| @kanzure | whether or not a strong ai exists has nothing to do with whether or not "the internet is already intelligent" | 16:08 |
| ParahSailin | is a human a strong ai? | 16:08 |
| @kanzure | ParahSailin: yes | 16:08 |
| ParahSailin | done | 16:08 |
| @kanzure | ParahSailin: it's just, we really suck at the whole "recursive self-improvement" thing at the moment | 16:08 |
| @kanzure | presumably software-based brains would operate faster and not take as long as we've been taking | 16:09 |
| ParahSailin | we dont know how to use these brains yet | 16:10 |
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| @kanzure | eh? | 16:13 |
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| @kanzure | yashgaroth: oh also we need to yell out "ENHANCE!" whenever someone shows photos in their slides | 16:36 |
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| yashgaroth | you're gonna end up with everyone heckling during your presentation | 16:37 |
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| yashgaroth | it is a more low-watchlist approach though, which might be for the best | 16:44 |
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| strangewarp | Hmmm | 16:58 |
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| @kanzure | hi Gevallen_Engel | 17:48 |
| Gevallen_Engel | Hiya | 17:48 |
| @kanzure | i think you were the one asking about automated pipettes? | 17:49 |
| Gevallen_Engel | Ended up with an odd piece of equipment, I'm trying to figure out if its still current enough to be of some interest to a lab or more suited to be parted out :P | 17:50 |
| Gevallen_Engel | I was, still havent gotten very far with that yet, waiting on a controller card to arrive | 17:50 |
| Gevallen_Engel | http://imgur.com/a/1q0n5#noI02 | 17:51 |
| @kanzure | oh right, i remember now | 17:51 |
| @kanzure | what controller have you purchased/why? | 17:51 |
| Gevallen_Engel | I'll have to look it up, its a chinese controller that I guess doesnt have the best documentation but does work with mach and still supports 4 axis | 17:52 |
| Gevallen_Engel | http://tinyurl.com/84o4lnq | 17:54 |
| Gevallen_Engel | I'm sure I'll have tons of fun figuring that out :| | 17:54 |
| @kanzure | ah ok. why are you using mach instead of e.g. linuxcnc? | 17:57 |
| Gevallen_Engel | Ive no personal preference for either really :) Open to ideas | 17:58 |
| Gevallen_Engel | I'd have to tackle learning to use linux first for linuxcnc I'd assume :P | 17:58 |
| @kanzure | it has pointy clicky interfaces i thought | 18:05 |
| Gevallen_Engel | http://i.imgur.com/igH3d.jpg got this too but it doesnt seem robust enough to to much with :\ | 18:05 |
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| @kanzure | hrmm | 19:47 |
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| JayDugger | Heh...reviewing your DF strategies in the light of the O'Reilly book? | 20:01 |
| JayDugger | http://shop.oreilly.com/product/0636920022565.do | 20:01 |
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| ParahSailin | http://vimeo.com/29720808 | 21:18 |
| @kanzure | what is it? | 21:19 |
| ParahSailin | its a brainfuck | 21:21 |
| joshcryer | what are they saying | 21:23 |
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| --- Log closed Mon Jun 04 00:00:30 2012 | ||
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