| --- Log opened Wed Jul 25 00:00:18 2012 | ||
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| kanzure | regarding xprize, i was apparently misinformed on the insurance scheme. | 00:30 |
|---|---|---|
| kanzure | "The insurance policy still cost a couple million dollars, which they had to raise. And they didn't purchase the insurance policy until several years after the competition was launched." | 00:30 |
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| delinquentme | http://www.meteor.com/screencast | 08:28 |
| delinquentme | wat | 08:28 |
| delinquentme | ok so its like added abstraction | 08:30 |
| delinquentme | awesome | 08:30 |
| delinquentme | but | 08:30 |
| delinquentme | IDK why thats a big deal | 08:30 |
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| delinquentme | mannnn | 09:03 |
| delinquentme | BIO HACKER BOOT CAMP | 09:04 |
| delinquentme | " PAY US MONEY " | 09:04 |
| kanzure | it looks like just bench techniques | 09:12 |
| kanzure | those are certainly important | 09:13 |
| kanzure | but it would be nice if they also covered things like thermocycler construction | 09:13 |
| kanzure | and spectrophotometer construction. | 09:13 |
| kanzure | hmmm "I'm new entrant to the Open Science list. My name is Ethan Perlstein, I'm an evolutionary pharmacologist at Princeton, and my lab gives psych drugs to yeast." | 09:16 |
| delinquentme | lolol | 09:17 |
| delinquentme | wat | 09:17 |
| delinquentme | psychology? | 09:18 |
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| AdrianG | they are treating yeast schizophrenia | 09:25 |
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| kanzure | nmz787: mac's trailer thing was something different | 09:47 |
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| delinquentme | kanzure, trailer? | 09:55 |
| kanzure | he got funding for his diybio-in-a-trailer project back in 2008 | 09:56 |
| delinquentme | oh so hes got a lab in a trailer? | 10:00 |
| kanzure | he had | 10:08 |
| delinquentme | O_o did he like sell it off? | 10:10 |
| delinquentme | and wouldn't that be rough on all kinds of equipment? | 10:11 |
| nmz787 | yashgaroth: i ran the jetta on pure biodiesel in berkeley last summer, its harder to come by out here, but last week i filled up in a B5 station (5% biodiesel)... no conversion needed, in colder NY I'd need/want to add a fuel line pre-warmer (hot coil around fuel line) but that's about it | 10:30 |
| yashgaroth | awesome | 10:31 |
| nmz787 | kanzure: did you watch the german guy's DIYbio documentary | 10:31 |
| nmz787 | ? | 10:31 |
| kanzure | sascha's? | 10:31 |
| nmz787 | they had a DNA trailer in germany in that vid | 10:31 |
| kanzure | no wait, sascha is the chicago person | 10:31 |
| nmz787 | yeah | 10:31 |
| nmz787 | oh | 10:31 |
| kanzure | i watched a few minutes of it | 10:31 |
| nmz787 | i don't remember his name | 10:31 |
| kanzure | didn't see a trailer. | 10:32 |
| kanzure | fablab had a trailer for a while. they were calling it their mobile fablab. | 10:32 |
| nmz787 | from here: http://tequals0.wordpress.com/2012/06/24/diybio-fbi-outreach-conference-san-fransisco/ | 10:34 |
| nmz787 | is this :http://www.imdb.com/title/tt1724278/ | 10:34 |
| nmz787 | Sascha (you're right) | 10:34 |
| nmz787 | Karberg | 10:34 |
| nmz787 | the german thing was more of a bus though, it was sortof like a postal truck or UPS truck | 10:35 |
| kanzure | oh there was also biobus | 10:35 |
| nmz787 | apparently Sascha was a Knight (Tom??) fellow http://web.mit.edu/knight-science/fellows/former/2008-09.html | 10:37 |
| kanzure | haha that would be hilarious if tom knight already has fellowships named after him | 10:38 |
| nmz787 | emailed them to ask | 10:40 |
| delinquentme | what is pushState | 10:57 |
| kanzure | just a fancy way to manipulate history in a browser | 10:58 |
| nmz787 | is this too crazy for me to put on my wishlist? http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16824176177 | 11:00 |
| nmz787 | when 24" goes for $200??? | 11:00 |
| nmz787 | 30 bit color sounds pretty nice, but not sure I would ever use it, and not sure if my laptop's graphics card can even drive that much depth | 11:01 |
| nmz787 | the resolution for the size seems really nice though | 11:01 |
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| nmz787 | "The Knight Fellowships are named after James and John Knight, who built the Knight newspaper chain and the Knight Foundation for Journalism." | 12:22 |
| delinquentme | kanzure, data migrations to add users? | 12:32 |
| delinquentme | is that right? | 12:32 |
| delinquentme | I've oly ever used migrations to modify schema | 12:32 |
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| kanzure | delinquentme: uh i guess you might do that if you were migrating between databases | 12:37 |
| delinquentme | http://stackoverflow.com/questions/1562589/rails-create-default-root-user-through-migration-rake-task | 12:37 |
| delinquentme | thanks ( currently doing coding for interview _ | 12:37 |
| kanzure | things be crazy over in china | 12:46 |
| kanzure | http://www.madhouse.cn/en/pop/mad74.html | 12:46 |
| kanzure | "Shanghai China - 11th April, 2012 - Madhouse, the largest and most intelligent mobile advertising network in China, today issues a statement about SmartMad ad display error caused by Guohead. Due to the special handling of Guohead, developers who uses Guohead Mediation Platform will have maximum 75% of the ads being displayed outside the mobile phone screen, which results in abnormally significantly drop of CTR and loss of developer's income." | 12:47 |
| kanzure | "Since 5th December 2011, without Madhouse’s knowledge, Mobile in-app mediation platform Guohead made special handling to SmartMad SDK. In Guohead Android SDK v1.2.1 released on 5th December 2011, the ads would display outside the mobile phone screen up to twice for every three requests." | 12:47 |
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| nmz787 | who is guohead? | 12:56 |
| nmz787 | so that's a bug or it was intentional? | 12:58 |
| kanzure | might have been intentional | 13:02 |
| kanzure | to inflate ad view metrics. | 13:03 |
| kanzure | but it's a very weird way to do it; why not just increase the number instead of making phones make requests to see ads | 13:03 |
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| kanzure | obscurite: what's up? | 13:20 |
| nmz787 | kanzure: I guess I'm kind of lame, mixed up dates and showed up at genspace yesterday for a talk that was happening today... now I don't feel like commuting an hour there and hour back to go to the talk today | 13:25 |
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| kanzure | haha | 13:28 |
| kanzure | no man, the way to look at it is that THEY are a day late | 13:28 |
| obscurite | kanzure: was wondering if there are any projects that have been shown to be usefull for DNA concentration measurement | 13:29 |
| obscurite | kanzure: then i realized you mentioend spectrophotometers earlier | 13:29 |
| kanzure | well, nmz787 made an open source spectrophotometer | 13:29 |
| kanzure | so, i would start by bugging him | 13:29 |
| obscurite | what's his real name? i may have seen it | 13:29 |
| nmz787 | nathan mccorkle | 13:29 |
| obscurite | oh nathan | 13:29 |
| kanzure | lord dr. mccorkle | 13:30 |
| nmz787 | openspectrometer.com | 13:30 |
| nmz787 | lol | 13:30 |
| nmz787 | :D | 13:30 |
| nmz787 | dark lord | 13:30 |
| nmz787 | no no no, wait, I don't wanna be taken down by the white side | 13:30 |
| nmz787 | whitesides lab | 13:30 |
| kanzure | haha | 13:30 |
| obscurite | nmz787: looks nice. can you make practicla measurements yet? | 13:31 |
| obscurite | or I should say, what can you measure | 13:31 |
| nmz787 | obscurite: the hard part about spectrometers is getting everything aligned right.... or right enough that signal:noise isn't shit, and that you can standardize the output so you can trade results with others having the same/similar setup | 13:31 |
| nmz787 | i got the CCD working but not optics, then stopped because of school, then failed school because it wasn't as fun or fulfilling as the spectrometer work... then... well, here I am | 13:32 |
| obscurite | nmz787: did you check out http://www.asdlib.org/onlineArticles/elabware/Scheeline_Kelly_Spectrophotometer/index.html | 13:33 |
| obscurite | nmz787: I've been in and out of school for similar reasons btw. | 13:35 |
| nmz787 | i might have, but the image there is using a transmission grating, so its no bueno for DNA | 13:35 |
| obscurite | nmz787: ahh, figured. | 13:35 |
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| nmz787 | i wanna know the prices for these http://sales.hamamatsu.com/en/products/solid-state-division/mini-spectrometers.php | 13:37 |
| nmz787 | the other thing for DNA is 260 and 280nm LEDs, but they're currently $100-200/piece | 13:38 |
| nmz787 | so still not 'cheap' | 13:38 |
| obscurite | nmz787: ouch | 13:38 |
| yashgaroth | can't you use a uv lamp with a prism? bear in mind I don't physics | 13:40 |
| nmz787 | yashgaroth: sure, a deuterium or xenon flashbulb would be fine, that's what the pros use... but with the prism you're back to aligning optics | 13:41 |
| obscurite | nmz787: was looking at these too http://www.google.com/patents?id=F5nKAAAAEBAJ (do not look if you don't want to be infected by IP) | 13:46 |
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| nmz787 | i've taken apart a nanodrop before | 13:49 |
| nmz787 | it didnt have a filter wheel in it though, only a xenon flashbulb | 13:49 |
| yashgaroth | you sure it wasn't just after the sample? | 13:51 |
| nmz787 | yeah, it was the xenon light source into a fiber, into the swing arm, through the droplet into the base, into a fiber, into a USB2000 Ocean Optics spectometer | 13:53 |
| nmz787 | it was one of the original nanodrops tho before thermofisher bought them | 13:53 |
| nmz787 | so maybe their higher up models use the selector for changing the light source | 13:54 |
| nmz787 | deuterium is a little flatter in the lower end than xenon... but can't remember if its worse in other areas | 13:54 |
| nmz787 | protein assays (bradford) i think happen in the visible, so maybe you'd want to use LEDs or a fluorescent source to save energy and heat... or to reduce usage on the UV source... UV can foul up some optics over time, so maybe that's why you'd want a selector | 13:56 |
| obscurite | nmz787: i'm feeling intimiated by all this optics | 13:56 |
| nmz787 | or maybe the selector was for filtering out the source, in something like a fluorescence assay | 13:56 |
| nmz787 | obscurite: do you need a spectrometer? | 13:57 |
| obscurite | nmz787: that diffraction grading project was about as advanced as i'm willing to get probably | 13:57 |
| obscurite | nmz787: was just curious how far you could get with an easy diy project. have nanodrop at lab. | 13:57 |
| obscurite | nmz787: how far do you think you have to go to finish your project, if you were to resume it or pass it on? | 13:58 |
| nmz787 | I got as far as identifying a concave holographic aberration-corrected grating as probably being the best for DIY UV spectrometers... its basically a concave mirror with lines on it so you 'reflect' the light from a slit onto a CCD | 13:59 |
| nmz787 | i wasn't sure how to build a cheap 3D printable mount for it | 14:00 |
| obscurite | nmz787: why specifically would that cheap grating i linked be unsuitable? bad optics? | 14:00 |
| nmz787 | the classic (these days) czerny-turner design have multiple pieces to adjust, it's small but not ideal for DIY | 14:01 |
| nmz787 | I could be wrong but I think it would attenuate the UV since it's plastic | 14:02 |
| nmz787 | if you're on DIYbio, Simon Field and I have discussed this a lot on there | 14:02 |
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| nmz787 | so I don't know how much a transmission grating would attenuate the UV, it could be enough to kill the signal, or it could be minor... but pro setups don't use them... for what it | 14:04 |
| nmz787 | 's worth | 14:04 |
| obscurite | nmz787: gotcha | 14:04 |
| nmz787 | obscurite: what do you do? | 14:06 |
| obscurite | nmz787: I'm a student at the moment, so I learn for a living. :) Used to be a software guy, so that's my mindset, which doesn't always mesh with bio. | 14:07 |
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| obscurite | nmz787: currently working on iGEM, some computational bio stuff, classes | 14:08 |
| nmz787 | cool, what geolocation are you near? | 14:12 |
| obscurite | nmz787: based in NYC. in pittsburgh most of the summer for work. | 14:13 |
| nmz787 | dang, I'm in NYC (possibly for another month if gf gets a job elsewhere, or for the next 1-2 years)... from PGH as a kid | 14:14 |
| nmz787 | was just in pgh last week | 14:14 |
| obscurite | ships passing in the night! | 14:14 |
| Steel2 | isn't carl in pgh? | 14:14 |
| nmz787 | lol | 14:15 |
| nmz787 | Steel2: sortof, about 25 miles east of there | 14:15 |
| nmz787 | obscurite: PGH is a really chill place, don't know if you're bored there compared to NYC... but its pretty sweet IMO, and I've been traveling for the past 7 years still in top 5 places | 14:17 |
| nmz787 | (though I hated it when I left at age 18) | 14:18 |
| nmz787 | I don't think I knew about hackerspaces back then, and I doubt any existed in PGH either | 14:18 |
| obscurite | nmz787: i'm enjoying it. i'd probably be fine living here, though i like having an overwhelming number of people around because I like being part of communities. though, lately i've been wondering if local communities are overrated. ;) | 14:18 |
| obscurite | I've been chatting with the hack pittsburgh group and may visit them | 14:18 |
| obscurite | I just resigned from the hackerspace I founded last year in NYC, so i'm temporarily unenthused about them. | 14:19 |
| nmz787 | i felt like there wasn't much opportunity for me when I left... I think it is true that out west people are more willing to forego bachelors degree == you get a job that seems to predominate in today's culture | 14:19 |
| nmz787 | i went to hackpgh once, it was alright... I'm generally a shut-in though, so I prefer having my own tools, etc | 14:20 |
| obscurite | nmz787: yeah, nyc has far more jobs for sure. | 14:20 |
| obscurite | not a bad place to be a student/postdoc/faculty type | 14:20 |
| nmz787 | i don't know if i'm unique, or if I have the true american spirit... i.e. living in middle of nowhere frontier-ville | 14:21 |
| nmz787 | i used to just want a cabin where i could just live away from society | 14:22 |
| obscurite | nmz787: i think it's good to have exposure to people, though breaks are good | 14:23 |
| obscurite | nmz787: for scientists/researchers it's essential and i don't think internet is good enough. | 14:23 |
| nmz787 | yeah people are alright, but NYC isn't really the place for a shut-in type... too expensive! | 14:23 |
| obscurite | nmz787: that's why i'm in school, so i can interface in person with as many smart people as i want | 14:23 |
| obscurite | nmz787: it's not cheap, but i don't see what that has to do with personality | 14:24 |
| obscurite | nmz787: unless you like to eat out 100% of the time | 14:24 |
| nmz787 | yeah we've talked about organizing internet seminars recently, and some folks are for it (kanzure) and others aren't so much (jules... who i don't think hangs out in this IRC room) | 14:24 |
| obscurite | nmz787: oh, right, yeah. decent sized apartments are expensive, so if you're home a lot, not so great in that sense, though there are parts of NYC that are comparable to other smaller cities. | 14:25 |
| nmz787 | obscurite: well if I can be content with internet and my house, it'd be a lot cheaper elsewhere... NYC seems like the place to be /if/ you like going out | 14:25 |
| nmz787 | obscurite: I actually felt the same way about my university.... I called it my personal think tank | 14:25 |
| kanzure | http://www.codeofhonor.com/blog/the-making-of-warcraft-part-1 | 14:30 |
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| nmz787 | obscurite: make sure to visit mike and tony's gyro shop on 15th and carson in southside | 14:45 |
| nmz787 | best gyros in world that i've found | 14:45 |
| nmz787 | also the pretzel shop between 23rd and 24th streets on carson in southside | 14:45 |
| nmz787 | kanzure: how do I make this command a shortcut in bash? | 14:54 |
| nmz787 | kanzure: cclive "" --exec "ffmpeg -i '%f' '%f.mp3'" | 14:54 |
| nmz787 | kanzure: where the first "" needs to have a URL added | 14:54 |
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| kanzure | nmz787: $1 | 14:55 |
| kanzure | $1 is the first argument to a script | 14:56 |
| kanzure | so if you put that into a chmod +x'd file "super-cclive" somewhere on your $PATH then "super-cclive http://.." should work | 14:56 |
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| kanzure | nmz7871: i typed out a reply.. http://gnusha.org/logs/2012-07-25.log | 14:59 |
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| nmz7871 | cool | 15:02 |
| obscurite | nmz7871: back. i'm a vegan, so no gyro for me, but thank you for the pointer. | 15:04 |
| nmz7871 | ahh, well, the pretzel shop has the best pretzels i've ever had, lol | 15:05 |
| nmz7871 | do you eat milk products? | 15:05 |
| obscurite | nmz7871: actually there's a place in town that serves vegan waffle icecream sundaes. that's my next stop. | 15:06 |
| yashgaroth | wouldn't be a vegan if he did | 15:06 |
| obscurite | nmz7871: nope. vegans don't consume animal byproducts | 15:06 |
| obscurite | i only make exceptions for certain humans | 15:06 |
| nmz7871 | so that's anything that has nerves? | 15:06 |
| obscurite | nmz7871: not sure if nerves is a good metric. maybe | 15:06 |
| nmz7871 | i.e. yeasts (animolecules) are OK to eat? | 15:06 |
| obscurite | nmz7871: yeasts are OK | 15:07 |
| obscurite | nmz7871: i guess anything you ingest without even eating is OK | 15:07 |
| obscurite | nmz7871: yeast would be consumed whether we tried to or not | 15:07 |
| nmz7871 | hmm | 15:09 |
| nmz7871 | so why isn't having nerves the metric? | 15:09 |
| nmz7871 | what do vegans eat with nerves? | 15:09 |
| nmz7871 | all animals have nerves, right, and nothing but animals have nerves.. I think | 15:10 |
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| obscurite | nmz7871: don't know enough biology to say for sure. i wouldn't eat sponges, I don't think. | 15:11 |
| obscurite | nmz7871: don't think they have nerves... | 15:12 |
| obscurite | nmz7871: mostly i'm all about voiding the multicellular creatures | 15:12 |
| Sanky | what about mycetozoa? they don't have nerves, but they can get through mazes and stuff | 15:12 |
| nmz7871 | first google link for | 15:12 |
| obscurite | nmz7871: but i don't think most vegans make such fine distinctions. maybe go with "anything with a face" | 15:12 |
| nmz7871 | "sponge nerves" gives "Origin of Nerves Traced to Sponges" | 15:12 |
| nmz7871 | but yeah no nerveds | 15:12 |
| nmz7871 | "Sponges are the only multicellular animals without anervous system. They do not have any nerve cells or sensory cells" | 15:13 |
| nmz7871 | they also don't have faces | 15:13 |
| nmz7871 | but then milk doesn't have a face | 15:14 |
| obscurite | nmz7871: byproduct of something with a face | 15:14 |
| Sanky | animals which produce it do | 15:14 |
| obscurite | Sanky: dunno | 15:14 |
| nmz7871 | maybe this is an off-the-deep-end question, but do you think babies should be vegan (not drinking mother's milk) | 15:14 |
| yashgaroth | I think they have the mother's consent for that one | 15:15 |
| obscurite | nmz7871: i consider human milk to be vegan | 15:15 |
| nmz7871 | they're at least supposed to drink it thanks to evolution, vs us drinking cows milk | 15:15 |
| obscurite | nmz7871: at least, during the development period where it's useful | 15:15 |
| nmz7871 | sure | 15:15 |
| Steel2 | obscurite: would you eat vat grown meat? | 15:15 |
| nmz7871 | a 30 y/o asking on craigslist for mother's milk and claiming it was to satisfy his vegannes would be weird | 15:16 |
| obscurite | Steel2: i've been avoiding having an opinion on that one for years now | 15:16 |
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| Steel2 | it's just protein chains :-/ | 15:16 |
| nmz7871 | well Steel2 it would be cellularly similar as well | 15:16 |
| nmz7871 | maybe have some hormones | 15:16 |
| Steel2 | no cns | 15:16 |
| obscurite | Steel2: there's the genetic link back to some animal who was bred for the process | 15:17 |
| Sanky | once artificial meat becomes affordable I will probably refuse to eat animal meat | 15:17 |
| yashgaroth | would macroscopic heterotrophs be a good definition of what you don't eat? | 15:17 |
| Steel2 | eating/supporting artificial meat is the only effective way to cut down animal based meat | 15:17 |
| obscurite | Steel2: would that alone make me morally opposed? i still abstain | 15:17 |
| Steel2 | through helping their economy of scale | 15:17 |
| obscurite | Steel2: i have no reason to believe it will ever be more resource efficient than farm meat. so far it's less. | 15:18 |
| obscurite | Steel2: and both are far less efficient than plant based diets in terms of environmental/economic impact | 15:18 |
| Steel2 | you don't have to grow the extraneous parts, and you can go straight from mass/energy -> food | 15:18 |
| obscurite | Steel2: but in terms of consume adoption, yes, it will win | 15:18 |
| Steel2 | eh, environmental/economic impact isn't something I take into consideration, to be fair | 15:18 |
| obscurite | Steel2: it's still inherently in terms of physics a lot of energy compared to plants | 15:19 |
| obscurite | Steel2: i believe | 15:19 |
| Steel2 | energy isn't something that will be scarce, if PR gets off the ground | 15:19 |
| obscurite | let's not speculate on unlimited free energy :P | 15:19 |
| obscurite | what's PR? | 15:20 |
| yashgaroth | phusion reactors? | 15:20 |
| Steel2 | planetary resources | 15:20 |
| Steel2 | and I mean, energy is easy, just not politically viable | 15:20 |
| obscurite | stupid humans. we'll be wrangling planets and still bitching about not having a steak. | 15:21 |
| Steel2 | what's wrong with that, if steak is more or less a tiny cost? | 15:21 |
| Steel2 | hedonism is good | 15:22 |
| Steel2 | and no plants/animals involved | 15:22 |
| obscurite | Steel2: yeah, well, then please priotize sexbots over fake meat | 15:22 |
| obscurite | that's my vote. | 15:22 |
| Steel2 | fake meat is a) more ethical b) more profitable and c) more plausible | 15:22 |
| obscurite | not if the sexbots are made of fake meat... | 15:23 |
| yashgaroth | ok this is getting a little weird | 15:23 |
| Sanky | i was just going to say that | 15:23 |
| Sanky | but continue | 15:23 |
| Steel2 | go to humanityplus magazine for sexbots >_> | 15:23 |
| Sanky | obscurite: i realize you don't see the appeal in meat yourself, but wouldn't it be better (from a vegan standpoint) if other (most) people started eating artificial meat? | 15:25 |
| obscurite | Sanky: yes, less suffering is quantitatively more ethical | 15:25 |
| obscurite | Sanky: but philosophically it's still a gray area | 15:25 |
| obscurite | i'd give it the thumbs up if it would put factory farms out of business | 15:25 |
| obscurite | because they are the worst part of humanity | 15:26 |
| Sanky | let's hope | 15:26 |
| Steel2 | mmm, I wouldn't call those the worst part of humanity | 15:26 |
| obscurite | Steel2: i had a moment of passion. point taken. | 15:26 |
| obscurite | love it when my teammates sent me a picture of a gel on a 45 degree angle with the ladder upside down | 15:29 |
| obscurite | (molecular bio gripes) | 15:29 |
| strangewarp | If vat-meat causes any plurality of factory-farm owners to switch over to vat-meat, even if they still end up killing a few animals to harvest cells, then it will reduce both pollution and animal suffering | 15:32 |
| strangewarp | Reducing suffering in both humans and animals is important, if you have ny estimation that you might be in either a simulation or a Big Universe, because the superrational interpretation of the prisoner's dilemma implies that the way you are willing to treat animals might be isomorphic to how superintelligences would be willing to treat /you/ | 15:33 |
| strangewarp | ny=any | 15:33 |
| obscurite | strangewarp: there are still deep philosphical/cultural/psychological questions about the idea of meat in general | 15:35 |
| strangewarp | .. actually it doesn't even require simulism or Big Universe now that I think about it; the ethics of past people have some effect on the ethics of future people | 15:35 |
| obscurite | strangewarp: lab grown meat won't satisfy those | 15:35 |
| obscurite | strangewarp: but yes, it will reduce suffering immensely | 15:36 |
| strangewarp | It's imperfect, certainly | 15:36 |
| strangewarp | but, yeah | 15:36 |
| Steel2 | strangewarp, finish your tools >_> | 15:37 |
| obscurite | strangewarp: and, i love your description of the problem in temrms of enlightened self interest | 15:37 |
| nmz7871 | i see the advantage of animals is that they eat grass, which grows in the sun | 15:38 |
| strangewarp | Steel2: The editor is almost done, and snazzy. The music-sequencer is in first-draft form. Lemme send you an in-progress pic... | 15:38 |
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| nmz7871 | if you could just cut out the CNS stuff and the limbs, it seems like the best way efficiency wise and in cheapness to distribute and run/operate | 15:38 |
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| nmz7871 | CNS and PNS | 15:39 |
| strangewarp | obscurite: With enough superrational prisoner's dilemma, rational self-interest and compassion for others tend to converge | 15:39 |
| Steel2 | nmz: or cover that same area with solar panels? | 15:39 |
| nmz7871 | or algae/cyanobacteria? | 15:39 |
| Steel2 | solar panels could be used for a multiplicity of purposes | 15:39 |
| Steel2 | granted, turning all farmland into solar would lead to an albedo increase... | 15:39 |
| Steel2 | eh, just build a ton of nuclear reactors and space solar | 15:40 |
| nmz7871 | I guess I was saying animals parts as in immune system and digestive tract | 15:40 |
| nmz7871 | reproduction, etc | 15:40 |
| Steel2 | why not just...the muscle? | 15:40 |
| Steel2 | in perpetuity? | 15:40 |
| Steel2 | in a factory? | 15:40 |
| obscurite | nmz7871: the transformation of plant -> animal is not an efficient process. much better if you can utilize the plants directly. | 15:41 |
| nmz7871 | wouldn't you need chems to keep it sterile in such big cultures? | 15:41 |
| obscurite | nmz7871: in areas where plant growth is limited, and only grasses can grow, animals make more sense | 15:41 |
| nmz7871 | and defined/rich media to feed the muscle, vs digestive system+immune system | 15:41 |
| Steel2 | much better if you can utilize animals directly | 15:42 |
| strangewarp | nmz7871: The problem of keeping it sterile is already solved, I think; you just need artificial blood vessels to keep the interior from rotting, and they're already 3D-printing artificial blood vessels for that, I think | 15:42 |
| Steel2 | :D | 15:42 |
| obscurite | Steel2: throw in some A1 and you get free energy right? | 15:42 |
| Steel2 | not quite :P | 15:42 |
| Steel2 | man, I wish I could have all my veggies taste and look and feel like meat | 15:43 |
| obscurite | Steel2: second best approach is to make every vegetable into tempura | 15:43 |
| strangewarp | tempura <3 | 15:43 |
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| yashgaroth | if you can make high-quality meat in vitro, immune/digestive systems wouldn't be a stretch...or you could just irradiate the feedstock | 15:49 |
| yashgaroth | or just make like, really ridiculously stupid cows | 15:49 |
| Sanky | just remove any pain reception | 15:50 |
| eudoxia | cows have lots of non-meaty parts though | 15:50 |
| yashgaroth | removing the sensation of "I'm stuck in this me-sized cage for my entire life" would be more difficult | 15:51 |
| Sanky | remove free will | 15:51 |
| Sanky | maybe replace the brain with a computer and make wire it up to the meaty parts | 15:51 |
| Sanky | then you won't have to worry about that stuff | 15:51 |
| obscurite | I almost said "use republicans". Good thing I exercised restraint. | 15:52 |
| Sanky | s/make// | 15:52 |
| yashgaroth | now that sounds expensive | 15:52 |
| yashgaroth | the computer thing, not republicans | 15:52 |
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| nmz7871 | computer vs bio is a lot more expensive IMO.... if you could store the egg/stem cell well... has anyone looked into sporifying animal cells? | 16:14 |
| obscurite | * so lost * | 16:15 |
| yashgaroth | ehh they'll last indefinitely in LN2 | 16:15 |
| nmz7871 | yashgaroth: I think you'd remove that stuff early on during development, and possibly look for genes to turn off to silence it in the germ line | 16:15 |
| obscurite | I think that growing cows without intelligence is just as bad as growing humans without intelligence. The stuff of nightmares. | 16:16 |
| yashgaroth | it'd be tough to find the right combination where they'd still be smart enough to eat, unless you go full feed-tube | 16:16 |
| nmz7871 | feed tube could still be grass slurry right? | 16:17 |
| nmz7871 | as long as you didnt overfill the stomach? | 16:17 |
| yashgaroth | sure why not, their gut bacteria don't care | 16:17 |
| nmz7871 | maybe ever continuous process then? | 16:17 |
| nmz7871 | it would be interesting to see how long the meat would keep regenerating if you just surgically removed cuts... | 16:18 |
| obscurite | i'd prefer to use humans before I use animals | 16:18 |
| yashgaroth | reminds me of that D&D scenario where you keep a cow around for food and just cast a healing spell on it after | 16:19 |
| obscurite | at least we'd be desecrating our own form | 16:19 |
| Steel2 | I find the word desecrate to be meaningless :P | 16:19 |
| obscurite | I use the word artistically. | 16:19 |
| strangewarp | Growing humans and cows without brains, for food, isn't ethically any different from vat-meat... but I have a feeling most people would prefer vat-meat, really | 16:20 |
| Steel2 | strangewarp: vat meat is better...no need to grow the bones etc. | 16:21 |
| eudoxia | vat meat doesn't have all the extra stuff, bones et cetera. | 16:21 |
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| eudoxia | bonemind | 16:21 |
| strangewarp | BOOONE STOOOORM | 16:21 |
| obscurite | strangewarp: it *is* ethically different. respect for the form of the hull is a practical concern. | 16:21 |
| * strangewarp cough | 16:21 | |
| obscurite | strangewarp: we don't even yet know the mass psychological effects of the concept of meat | 16:21 |
| strangewarp | Particular body shapes have no essence that must be respected, tha I can tell | 16:21 |
| strangewarp | It's just uncomfortable because it would look like us, maybe | 16:22 |
| obscurite | symbols are important | 16:22 |
| obscurite | our brains care about them | 16:22 |
| strangewarp | politically, diplomatically, sure | 16:22 |
| strangewarp | objectively, no | 16:22 |
| nmz7871 | Steel2: eudoxia: bones are where the immune system is born | 16:22 |
| obscurite | psychology matters here | 16:22 |
| Steel2 | vat meat is no different than tofu from a symbolic perspective | 16:22 |
| Steel2 | well, you can cut it into whatever shapes | 16:22 |
| strangewarp | obscurite: I'm agreeing with you I think? Just for slightly different reasons | 16:22 |
| nmz7871 | why buy a vat when it will just develop on its own from the single cell progenitor? | 16:23 |
| obscurite | i suspect the psychological impact of cell cultures vs carving meat from a body-like hull is different | 16:23 |
| Steel2 | it's all steak shaped on your plate | 16:23 |
| Steel2 | for the end consumer | 16:23 |
| eudoxia | nmz7871: is the immune system necessary when you're growing it in a sterile container? | 16:23 |
| eudoxia | not saying it isn't, just asking | 16:23 |
| obscurite | Steel2: ecept that it's not and that dissonance has mass psychological effects, i believe. | 16:24 |
| nmz7871 | well biofilms concern me | 16:24 |
| Steel2 | ehhhh, we have so much food that is not actually what it looks like these days | 16:24 |
| Steel2 | I honestly don't think end consumers will care | 16:24 |
| Steel2 | I think you underestimate humanity's capability to eat whatever is tasty | 16:24 |
| obscurite | Steel2: i do NOT underestimate your ability to do so | 16:24 |
| nmz7871 | they like growing on plastics, and viruses could also attack vat meat... though I guess you could do hourly PCR panel checks for that stuff | 16:24 |
| Steel2 | no, but I mean | 16:25 |
| yashgaroth | we've been able to keep fed vats sterile for a while now | 16:25 |
| nmz7871 | yeah I don't my version would look any different to the consumer, neither would vat meat | 16:25 |
| obscurite | i'm not talking about consumer adoption of a product. i'm talking about the same kind of subtle mass psychological effects that occur from an emphasis on say, violence in media | 16:25 |
| eudoxia | so you would need some kind of biocompatible container to prevent the tissue from attaching to the vat? | 16:26 |
| strangewarp | Steel2: I imagine what obscurite is getting at is, stupid political rhetoric would make people go "fuck no" to brainless-grown humans, "blurgh" to brainless-grown cow meat and vat-grown human meat, but "hey whatever" to vat-grown cow meat | 16:26 |
| Steel2 | obscurite, other than make us less desensitized to killing animals cuz we have alternaties? | 16:26 |
| Steel2 | *alternatives | 16:26 |
| obscurite | strangewarp: i'd agree with that | 16:26 |
| Steel2 | I'm really not sure what you're getting at | 16:26 |
| Steel2 | what sort of consequences do you see from vat-grown meat | 16:26 |
| obscurite | Steel2: yes, the relationship to our food source I believe has a much greater psychological importance than we believe | 16:27 |
| obscurite | Steel2: but certainly an importance greater than zero | 16:27 |
| Steel2 | [Citation Needed] | 16:27 |
| obscurite | Steel2: i did acknowledge it's not well understood | 16:27 |
| Steel2 | also, once again, why do you think it will be a negative/difficult psychological effect instead of a positive one? | 16:27 |
| eudoxia | what strangewarp said | 16:28 |
| obscurite | Steel2: i suppose it depends on your value scale. i think dominating behavior is overrated. | 16:29 |
| eudoxia | blurgh blurgh guttural sounds | 16:29 |
| Steel2 | I mean | 16:29 |
| Steel2 | we will be introducing less animals in the world to kill them | 16:29 |
| Steel2 | woo | 16:29 |
| nmz7871 | i think the avg farmer would rather have something that was a little less like a biolab... | 16:30 |
| Steel2 | also, I think we differ very much on dominating behavior | 16:30 |
| obscurite | Steel2: i'm not against domination when it's pleasurable between consenting people, but interspecies not so much | 16:30 |
| Steel2 | this would reduce that | 16:30 |
| nmz7871 | if they had to have birthing incubators but then it was pretty self-contained otherwise... i think that'd be alright | 16:30 |
| Steel2 | nmz: the average farmer is a corporation. | 16:30 |
| nmz7871 | bio is a machine, so why are we scared to acknowledge that | 16:31 |
| eudoxia | you can't dominate a slab of meat yo | 16:31 |
| obscurite | nmz7871: because we don't want to be just machines | 16:31 |
| nmz7871 | i accept it | 16:32 |
| nmz7871 | it makes sense | 16:32 |
| Steel2 | I want to be just a machine | 16:32 |
| Steel2 | seriously though | 16:32 |
| Steel2 | vast majority of our food comes from massive conglomerates | 16:32 |
| Steel2 | they'll have no issues with vat grown if it turns them a profit via economy of scale | 16:32 |
| nmz7871 | god and afterlife and mythos and hoohaa like that confused the hell outta me growing up | 16:33 |
| Steel2 | also less chance of disease (mad cow, etc.) | 16:33 |
| obscurite | Steel2: of course | 16:33 |
| Steel2 | it turns food production into literally factory farming | 16:33 |
| Steel2 | as in, a facility somewhere with large machinery | 16:33 |
| Steel2 | \o/ | 16:33 |
| obscurite | eudoxia: having a slab of meat is domination, if that meat came from an unwilling victim | 16:34 |
| Steel2 | 'came from' | 16:34 |
| Steel2 | we already have the dna for all these things | 16:34 |
| obscurite | eudoxia: but if it's lab grown... maybe not | 16:34 |
| nmz7871 | I think the main thing is that we want to improve the cleanlieness and efficiency overall | 16:34 |
| nmz7871 | so reducing emissions, etc | 16:34 |
| eudoxia | there's no victim, unless scraping a few cells from an unwilling cow is domination | 16:34 |
| nmz7871 | I think a lot of that might be solved if they didn't have legs | 16:35 |
| jrayhawk | factory meat already has a pathological lipid and micronutrient profile, i don't think removing organs is going to help the situation any | 16:35 |
| obscurite | eudoxia: right, maybe no victim... just philosophical conundrums | 16:35 |
| eudoxia | the cow doesn't get recognition or property rights but that's just fine because they're pretty dumb | 16:35 |
| obscurite | eudoxia: intelligence of non-humans has no decent measurement technique, so, premature | 16:35 |
| eudoxia | I can concede that | 16:36 |
| nmz7871 | jrayhawk: couldn't you grass-feed leg/CNS-less cows? | 16:36 |
| eudoxia | then again, how many things do we do every second that are against other "maybe conscious" lifeforms | 16:36 |
| obscurite | eudoxia: I'm not convinced intelligence is the most valuable biological trait | 16:37 |
| obscurite | eudoxia: I think the celebration of intelligence above other aspects is highly self-congratulatory | 16:37 |
| Steel2 | why bother growing the rest of the cow you won't eat, nmz | 16:37 |
| jrayhawk | I'm sorta expecting hormone profiles to be affected by the central nervous system, too, but that'd actually be interesting to explore | 16:37 |
| eudoxia | obscurite: that's an interesting point | 16:38 |
| obscurite | eudoxia: on rational scales of ingelligence, we don't even win sometimes | 16:38 |
| eudoxia | so, how do we treat other forms of life without an objective measurement scale of intelligence or worth in general? | 16:38 |
| eudoxia | what is 'worth'? | 16:38 |
| eudoxia | oh god | 16:38 |
| obscurite | eudoxia: we use our ability to dominate them as a scale. | 16:38 |
| obscurite | eudoxia: that's about it | 16:38 |
| obscurite | house pets: A OK. no eat. farm animals. bah. eat em. | 16:39 |
| Steel2 | ehhh, I might try dog/cat | 16:39 |
| obscurite | Steel2: i'm shocked :P | 16:39 |
| Steel2 | Anyway, I'm a nihilist | 16:40 |
| Steel2 | well, sort of | 16:40 |
| obscurite | wait, were you in the big lebowski | 16:40 |
| Steel2 | no >_> | 16:41 |
| jrayhawk | nihilism is a belief in the supremecy of action over reason | 16:42 |
| jrayhawk | are you sure you are a nihilist | 16:42 |
| nmz7871 | Steel2: grow the rest of the cow just because it's cheap to setup and maintenance is essentially the same as veal | 16:42 |
| Steel2 | long term economy of scale, don't think it is | 16:42 |
| Steel2 | jrayhawk: nihilism is the belief in lack of meaning | 16:43 |
| nmz7871 | hmm, well, it could be the hybrid -> electric approach then... | 16:43 |
| jrayhawk | No, that's post-modernism | 16:43 |
| Steel2 | rather, I'm an existential/moral nihilist | 16:43 |
| jrayhawk | or dadaism, or a couple other things in the field of irrationalism | 16:44 |
| Steel2 | not an epistemelogical nihilist | 16:44 |
| jrayhawk | nihilism is fairly specific | 16:44 |
| Steel2 | http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nihilism#Existential_nihilism | 16:44 |
| Steel2 | ignore the 'without change' part | 16:44 |
| eudoxia | i think Steel is right though | 16:44 |
| eudoxia | he sees there's no universal scale for a subjective thing like "ethics" and "morals" and sets his own | 16:44 |
| Steel2 | http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nihilism#Moral_nihilism (I believe morals are subjective, but you can make them universal subjectively) | 16:45 |
| * obscurite eats everyone in the channel, just in case they were planning to eat him first | 16:45 | |
| nmz7871 | i figure life evolved so it's really just complex energy patterns.... it is what it is thanks to physics which is the same physics everywhere... so in respect to our immediate space neighborhood life is pretty cool | 16:45 |
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| eudoxia | well of course, morals can be objective but under a subjective set of axioms, ie "what is good" etc. | 16:45 |
| nmz7871 | but meaning i think is limited to a self-perpetuating chain of patterns | 16:45 |
| Steel2 | ahahaha, I bounced a grenade off a dead body in hard reset >_> | 16:46 |
| obscurite | (so, you see, ethics is biologically based, going back to the discussion of enlightened/rational self interest) | 16:46 |
| strangewarp | Meh, ethics can be objective, but in your analysis you have to account for the set of all possible ethical situations, of which our knowledge is incomplete. Thus we have to rely on estimates instead... | 16:52 |
| obscurite | strangewarp: there are probably many more poits in the "ethics state space" than we could ever evaluate/simulate | 16:52 |
| strangewarp | uh huh. ;) | 16:53 |
| eudoxia | ethics state space | 16:53 |
| eudoxia | transhumanism is so fun | 16:53 |
| Steel2 | dennett covers ethical statespace recently iirc | 16:53 |
| obscurite | strangewarp: but we have to at least admit that ethics emerge from biological imperitive (what behavior with those linked genes will propagate) | 16:53 |
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| strangewarp | But that influences.. personal interpretations of ethics? As opposed to attempts of unbiased weighting of all of ethical state-space. | 16:55 |
| obscurite | strangewarp: without biology there is no ethics and ethics are determined i would argue by the current biological snapshot for the species | 16:55 |
| obscurite | strangewarp: morals are of course another story right? ;) | 16:56 |
| Steel2 | ...same difference? | 16:57 |
| obscurite | Steel2: i don't think anyone thinks they're the same thing :) | 16:57 |
| obscurite | Steel2: oh, sarcasm | 16:57 |
| Steel2 | I, uh, have an issue differentiating when you define them harshly enough | 16:57 |
| obscurite | or not | 16:57 |
| Steel2 | how do you define them to be different? | 16:58 |
| obscurite | morals have cultural legacy that doesn't track biology and can totally depart from biology | 16:58 |
| Steel2 | they both have such hazy definitions | 16:58 |
| obscurite | ethics are derived from need | 16:58 |
| strangewarp | Hmmmm... Without biology there are no creatures to act upon ideas of ethics, but that doesn't mean ethics are determined by biology. A person's actions upon the construct of ethics are determined by every part of a person and their environment.. | 16:58 |
| Steel2 | morals and ethics are a set of relational principles between yourself, your environment, and others in your environment. | 16:58 |
| Steel2 | two words for the same thing, not categorizably different | 16:59 |
| obscurite | Steel2: tell that to people who make careers of one or the other ;) | 16:59 |
| obscurite | but not both | 16:59 |
| strangewarp | Steel2: Hmmm.. I provisionally agree | 16:59 |
| Steel2 | I'll tell them they're using hazily defined terms. | 16:59 |
| Steel2 | internet encyclopedia of ethics defines it as moral philosophy | 17:00 |
| obscurite | another way to put it even more simply -- morals are tied to a belief system that is primarily cultural, while ethics are supposedly objective, though in practice, are often affected/infected by morals. | 17:00 |
| Steel2 | yeah, I'm not seeing a differentiation here, except in perhaps your own personal choice of definition | 17:01 |
| obscurite | then again, I have exposure to formal philosophy which emphasizes the logical nature of ethics | 17:01 |
| Steel2 | if you take the set of all meanings of the word 'ethics' for which it's commonly used, and do the same for 'morals', they pretty much overlap | 17:01 |
| obscurite | philosophy does not treat ethics like morality | 17:02 |
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| Steel2 | I just cited the IEP | 17:02 |
| obscurite | I'm just saying, in the philosophy papers, there is a clear distinction | 17:03 |
| * yashgaroth pulls the philosophy alert lever | 17:03 | |
| obscurite | in the vernacular, sure, it's fuzzy | 17:03 |
| obscurite | dude, trans/posthumanism is philosophy until people start living forever. | 17:03 |
| nmz7871 | obscurite: http://www.malcom.co.jp/eng/product/es-2.html | 17:03 |
| obscurite | the lever is permanently pulled | 17:04 |
| Steel2 | philosophy is theoretically banned in this channel | 17:04 |
| eudoxia | life extension is only a small part of the transhumanist 'project' | 17:04 |
| Steel2 | we're supposed to focus on the science | 17:04 |
| eudoxia | some forms of enhancement are available now | 17:04 |
| obscurite | eudoxia: just picked longevity as an example | 17:04 |
| obscurite | eudoxia: i get emails about them all the time | 17:04 |
| -!- mode/##hplusroadmap [+o kanzure] by ChanServ | 17:05 | |
| yashgaroth | heh | 17:05 |
| -!- mode/##hplusroadmap [+o yashgaroth] by kanzure | 17:05 | |
| -!- mode/##hplusroadmap [-o kanzure] by kanzure | 17:05 | |
| Steel2 | I had a czech dude email me asking for blueprints | 17:05 |
| Steel2 | through my website | 17:05 |
| obscurite | nmz7871: nice. prices? | 17:06 |
| nmz7871 | obscurite: no idea, they don't distribute in U.S. and ever replied to my emails | 17:06 |
| obscurite | nmz7871: good sign... | 17:06 |
| eudoxia | all i'm saying is some forms of enhancement are outside the real of philosophy already | 17:06 |
| obscurite | eudoxia: nothing is outside the realm of philosophy, nor should it be | 17:07 |
| nmz7871 | there's this, which if cheap enough could be modified for a microdrop sample pedestal | 17:07 |
| obscurite | eudoxia: but point taken | 17:07 |
| nmz7871 | http://www.alibaba.com/product-gs/492141883/ON_SALE_Single_Beam_Grating_UV.html | 17:07 |
| Steel2 | be careful with alibaba | 17:07 |
| strangewarp | philosophy about things that already exist deals with how they should be used. philosophy about everything else is more speculative. shrug | 17:08 |
| * strangewarp infinite shrug | 17:08 | |
| * strangewarp goes back to codin' | 17:08 | |
| obscurite | nmz7871: just FYI, I do have access to a Nanodrop device when I need it. was more just interested in DIY possbilities for cheap/reaosnable time sink. | 17:09 |
| * strangewarp or possibly readin' because bluuurgh codin' | 17:09 | |
| nmz7871 | bbl | 17:24 |
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| pasky | http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=1089782 | 17:31 |
| kanzure | pasky: what is it? | 17:41 |
| kanzure | ah a good ol trolling. | 17:42 |
| kanzure | "lib果合网站使用说明文_v1_2_2.a" what have i got myself into.. | 17:46 |
| obscurite | good lord. James Holmes is being billed as the first federally funded (NIH research grant) massacre | 17:54 |
| AdrianG | nice | 18:16 |
| AdrianG | finally somebody put NIH money to good use | 18:16 |
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| strangewarp | ...... ... what.. what? | 18:52 |
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| nmz787 | is daniel packer in here? | 19:19 |
| @yashgaroth | you were talking with him earlier | 19:20 |
| nmz787 | whats his name here? | 19:21 |
| @yashgaroth | it starts with an o | 19:22 |
| @yashgaroth | and ends with an bscurite | 19:22 |
| nmz787 | cool | 19:23 |
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| jrayhawk | re: evolution: somebody should've told the original poster he should switch operating systems on account of all the daemons that are resident on his computer | 19:45 |
| nmz787 | jrayhawk: who? | 20:05 |
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| kanzure | nmz787: he was commenting on the link that pasky pasted | 20:18 |
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| nmz787 | kanzure: pasky? | 20:27 |
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| kanzure | nmz787: http://gnusha.org/logs/2012-07-25.log | 20:31 |
| nmz787 | i tried there | 20:32 |
| kanzure | nmz787: 17:31 < pasky> http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=1089782 | 20:36 |
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| nmz787 | did gnusha get netsplit/ | 20:41 |
| nmz787 | ? | 20:41 |
| nmz787 | "But like the previous poster said, we got other things to worry about (~5 billion souls on their way to hell)." | 20:43 |
| jrayhawk | Huh, I didn't realize the judgement of souls fell on that guy. | 20:44 |
| delinquentme | FED bill passed | 20:44 |
| delinquentme | fed bill passed | 20:44 |
| jrayhawk | fed bill passed? | 20:44 |
| nmz787 | oh weird, I guess I was hitting ctrl-f too fast before the log loaded fully | 20:44 |
| delinquentme | OH did i mention the largest body of money ownership is now going to be held accountable for its actions? | 20:44 |
| nmz787 | wtf is fed? | 20:45 |
| delinquentme | THE fed | 20:45 |
| delinquentme | sorry | 20:45 |
| nmz787 | THE? | 20:45 |
| delinquentme | " The Federal Reserve" | 20:45 |
| delinquentme | @_@_@_@_@_@_@_@@_ | 20:45 |
| delinquentme | @_@ | 20:45 |
| delinquentme | @ | 20:45 |
| delinquentme | ( if you coudn't tell that was a rage comic where they zoom in on the eye ) | 20:45 |
| jrayhawk | hee | 20:45 |
| delinquentme | yeah. dude its fucking HUGE. | 20:45 |
| jrayhawk | huge how | 20:47 |
| nmz787 | jrayhawk: what was that weird named protein/enzyme you were telling me about | 20:47 |
| nmz787 | zapatawazoole | 20:47 |
| nmz787 | j/k | 20:47 |
| jrayhawk | Possibly gliadin? | 20:48 |
| jrayhawk | "CXCR3" and "zonulin" are the important things to look for | 20:49 |
| nmz787 | i think it had a z or k in it | 20:49 |
| jrayhawk | gliadin is part of a larger family called prolamines which seem to have similar, less well studied activity | 20:50 |
| nmz787 | delinquentme: find a way to efficiently map and display (and connect under the hood to SNPs and gene refs, protein function, family(s), 3D data, etc) the pathway that jrayhawk is talking about | 20:52 |
| nmz787 | then backload the rest of the PDB and entrez | 20:52 |
| nmz787 | and voila you have an interactome map | 20:53 |
| nmz787 | add some search features and protein docking stuff into the UI | 20:53 |
| delinquentme | jrayhawk, Did you know that the US doesnt own its currency? | 20:53 |
| delinquentme | Your dollar bills are actually on loan | 20:54 |
| delinquentme | a loan that " THE UNITED STATES " | 20:54 |
| delinquentme | pays interest on | 20:54 |
| delinquentme | Interest TO the federal reserve | 20:54 |
| delinquentme | which up until today | 20:54 |
| delinquentme | Acted entirely autonomously... UNCHECKEd | 20:54 |
| jrayhawk | Uh, the audit thing only passed the house, dude. | 20:55 |
| jrayhawk | There's a whole 'nother half of congress. | 20:56 |
| jrayhawk | Also, of our public debt, the Federal Reserve owns slightly less than half. | 20:58 |
| jrayhawk | And, for the record, I support central banking. | 20:59 |
| nmz787 | I wish this country were run by buddhists | 20:59 |
| kanzure | wtf is going on in here | 20:59 |
| nmz787 | we're all nuts | 21:00 |
| strangewarp | second time in a row I've looked at this room and went "whut" | 21:00 |
| strangewarp | come on H+, pull yourselves together | 21:00 |
| kanzure | yashgaroth: you're not doing your duty | 21:01 |
| kanzure | you were supposed to ban everyone | 21:01 |
| nmz787 | :O | 21:01 |
| kanzure | one day hplusroadmap will be an exclusive group of zero again | 21:01 |
| nmz787 | at least /something/ is going on | 21:02 |
| @yashgaroth | ehhh | 21:03 |
| jrayhawk | well, #hplusroadmap is empty | 21:03 |
| @yashgaroth | soooo the new futurama ep touches on transhumanism sort of | 21:03 |
| nmz787 | oOo which one? | 21:04 |
| @yashgaroth | the one that aired tonight | 21:04 |
| jrayhawk | transhumanism is talking heads in jars | 21:04 |
| @yashgaroth | this one has hermes gradually turn into a robot | 21:04 |
| kanzure | there are new episodes? | 21:05 |
| @yashgaroth | season 7 brah | 21:06 |
| jrayhawk | it isn't even turning out to be a complete disaster, unlike every other belated cartoon renewall | 21:06 |
| delinquentme | jrayhawk, absolutely | 21:07 |
| delinquentme | I do too | 21:07 |
| delinquentme | BUT | 21:07 |
| delinquentme | Who runs the fed | 21:07 |
| delinquentme | The 10 something of the heads of the largest financial institutions in the US | 21:08 |
| jrayhawk | http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Federal_Reserve_Board_of_Governors | 21:09 |
| jrayhawk | are you angry about the long terms? | 21:09 |
| delinquentme | jrayhawk, fox guarding the hen house | 21:10 |
| delinquentme | Oh and the hen is the largest, most powerful economy on earth | 21:10 |
| delinquentme | if you've got 2 hours and want to get really angry | 21:11 |
| delinquentme | you should watch aeitgeist | 21:11 |
| delinquentme | zeitgeist | 21:11 |
| delinquentme | it explains it better than I can | 21:11 |
| jrayhawk | Yeah, so far you've polemicly mischaracterized basically everything. | 21:11 |
| nmz787 | delinquentme: i see it this way, it's not my field because it's not as interesting as science and lasers (pyew pyew) | 21:12 |
| nmz787 | delinquentme: so if it's not my field, why bother... it's all crazy and unlogical | 21:12 |
| delinquentme | nmz787 can I say something unchecked without making you mad? | 21:12 |
| nmz787 | delinquentme: i'm not mad at all! | 21:13 |
| nmz787 | :D | 21:13 |
| delinquentme | bc i realllly like you hahah but its also something really near and dear to me | 21:13 |
| nmz787 | politics? | 21:13 |
| delinquentme | Oh well I havnt said it yet :D | 21:13 |
| delinquentme | here: | 21:13 |
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| delinquentme | " Spoken like a true academia trained mind " | 21:13 |
| delinquentme | reductionist approached dont work! | 21:13 |
| delinquentme | isnt science teaching that? | 21:14 |
| kanzure | jrayhawk: i don't think he even understood that | 21:14 |
| nmz787 | delinquentme: huh? | 21:14 |
| kanzure | delinquentme: you sure do cause a lot of fuss in here about nothing | 21:14 |
| delinquentme | jrayhawk, go | 21:14 |
| delinquentme | talk | 21:14 |
| delinquentme | .... | 21:14 |
| * delinquentme holds gun to head | 21:15 | |
| * delinquentme pulls trigger | 21:15 | |
| delinquentme | WTF | 21:15 |
| kanzure | i don't negotiate with hostage takers | 21:15 |
| jrayhawk | haha | 21:15 |
| strangewarp | I heard Zeitgeist unites impotent leftist angst with vacuous mystical spiritual empowerment narratives | 21:15 |
| strangewarp | yes? | 21:15 |
| delinquentme | strangewarp, zeitgeist | 21:15 |
| delinquentme | thats all you got | 21:15 |
| delinquentme | jrayhawk, talk ? speak! make assertions | 21:16 |
| jrayhawk | man, that sounds better than What The Bleep Do We Know and The Secret combined! | 21:16 |
| delinquentme | nmz787, to say " its illogical " Ok sure.. its illogical while there are people out there who are scraping off more cash in a month than your entire lineage has made adjusted for inflation | 21:16 |
| delinquentme | . | 21:17 |
| kanzure | how is that illogical? i thought it's a well known fact? | 21:17 |
| delinquentme | I was trying to say you can call it silly names | 21:17 |
| delinquentme | but theres HUGE HUGE HUGE cash at play here | 21:18 |
| delinquentme | and were all like | 21:18 |
| delinquentme | OMG JERSEY SHORE | 21:18 |
| delinquentme | no fuck that | 21:18 |
| delinquentme | this is real shit | 21:18 |
| delinquentme | jrayhawk, I still havn't heard anything that I"m supposed to respond to here | 21:18 |
| delinquentme | you too strangewarp | 21:18 |
| nmz787 | well i mean the way the media overdramatizes things it seems just like a waste of time to lull people into wasting time | 21:19 |
| kanzure | delinquentme: i don't think anyone in here watches jersey shore | 21:19 |
| kanzure | i don't know what you're talking about. | 21:19 |
| kanzure | go back to reddit | 21:19 |
| nmz787 | if you're not /in/ politics how can you change it? | 21:19 |
| strangewarp | You seem so enthusiastic over an immovable object's potential momentum that I think you will end up torturing yourself over it | 21:19 |
| delinquentme | nmz787, so thats the thing | 21:19 |
| delinquentme | you dont want to be in politics | 21:19 |
| delinquentme | you want to be in money | 21:19 |
| delinquentme | HUGE fucking moeny | 21:19 |
| delinquentme | money hahah | 21:19 |
| nmz787 | most of us are /in/ science or computers or whatever... so we can get shit done in those fields | 21:19 |
| delinquentme | politics changes stupid piddly shit like what gets taught in schools | 21:20 |
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| delinquentme | kanzure, dont patronize me because you're above your head | 21:20 |
| kanzure | what? | 21:20 |
| delinquentme | I love you but seriously dont pull that shit on me | 21:20 |
| kanzure | i'm above what now? | 21:20 |
| nmz787 | well after my experience with school it's not my first line of education for any offspring I may have | 21:20 |
| delinquentme | you're *in* above your head on this topic | 21:20 |
| kanzure | all i see is you ranting about jersey shore and the federal reserve | 21:21 |
| kanzure | and zeitgeist | 21:21 |
| delinquentme | the money supply | 21:21 |
| delinquentme | a private | 21:21 |
| nmz787 | kanzure: dude, you ARE above your own head... out of body experience... i believe man has mated with machine | 21:21 |
| delinquentme | unchecked company owns the fiat currency that everyone works for | 21:21 |
| delinquentme | 2045 project? | 21:22 |
| kanzure | delinquentme: why do you need to talk about this in here | 21:22 |
| strangewarp | zeitgeist was developed as a platform to make money off young liberals who want to feel like revolutionaries without touching the ground | 21:22 |
| -!- mode/##hplusroadmap [-bbb DrJackParsons!*@* gl00m!*@* JackParsons!*@*] by yashgaroth | 21:22 | |
| nmz787 | prepare for a world of pokemon games taking over every last electronic display on earth | 21:22 |
| delinquentme | kanzure, money. | 21:22 |
| delinquentme | governance | 21:22 |
| delinquentme | *throws up hands* | 21:22 |
| delinquentme | nm | 21:22 |
| nmz787 | who wants money? | 21:22 |
| jrayhawk | delinquentme: I'm not good enough with the psychology of moral outrage to help you. The Federal Reserve board is structured like the supreme court, and for the same reason. This is not a conspiracy. | 21:22 |
| jrayhawk | It is politically infeasible to fully centralize banking. The Federal Reserve is a tradeoff. | 21:23 |
| nmz787 | I want a fast car and a tricked out off-road pickup truck and a helicopter and a speed catamaran and a private island and a sweet ass microfluidics and tricked out laptops | 21:23 |
| delinquentme | ... | 21:23 |
| delinquentme | for christ fucking sakes | 21:23 |
| delinquentme | lets put the sillyness aside ok? | 21:23 |
| delinquentme | ok. | 21:23 |
| delinquentme | No its not a stinking "conspiracy" | 21:23 |
| delinquentme | but its a bunch of smart people in power | 21:23 |
| nmz787 | I don't think anyone in here is "out for money" | 21:23 |
| delinquentme | who have tinkered with what exists *JUST ENOUGH* | 21:24 |
| delinquentme | to give themselves HUGE advantages | 21:24 |
| kanzure | nmz787: there is nothing wrong with earning money. | 21:24 |
| delinquentme | ALSO consider that people dont like direct control | 21:24 |
| delinquentme | If you were the most powerful person on earth and wanted to keep it that way | 21:24 |
| delinquentme | you want something subversive no? | 21:24 |
| delinquentme | you want it quiet | 21:24 |
| delinquentme | hidden | 21:24 |
| kanzure | nmz787: except inasmuch that it signals to others that you might agree that money is a good idea | 21:24 |
| nmz787 | I do think /most/ people are kinda dumb, whether that's the genetic downfall of random mating or its that training/education is just sucky/inefficient.... or its all conspiracy for the rich to keep being rich.... i don't know | 21:25 |
| delinquentme | nmz787, like its no about cash per se ... but | 21:25 |
| delinquentme | So here: | 21:25 |
| delinquentme | Can we agree that the largest banking corps | 21:26 |
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| delinquentme | control alot | 21:26 |
| delinquentme | they're paying for lobbyists | 21:26 |
| delinquentme | they're paying off representatives | 21:26 |
| delinquentme | they're paying to fund presidential campaigns | 21:26 |
| delinquentme | money talks ja? | 21:26 |
| delinquentme | Sure vote. pick someone | 21:27 |
| jrayhawk | is there a specific conflict of interest you'd like to point to | 21:28 |
| delinquentme | and yeah I need to make sure that i'm not trying to be like CONSPIRACY | 21:28 |
| delinquentme | jrayhawk, yes. | 21:28 |
| delinquentme | biggest economy on earth | 21:28 |
| delinquentme | loans money | 21:28 |
| delinquentme | from a private corp | 21:28 |
| jrayhawk | it's private for a reason | 21:28 |
| delinquentme | that corporation is operated by the largest banks | 21:28 |
| delinquentme | and what would that reason be | 21:28 |
| delinquentme | ? | 21:29 |
| nmz787 | so what tho, banks are good are keeping money, right? | 21:29 |
| nmz787 | outsourcing | 21:29 |
| jrayhawk | to exist outside the influence of congress | 21:29 |
| nmz787 | contracting it out | 21:29 |
| jrayhawk | just as the supreme court does | 21:29 |
| delinquentme | jrayhawk, ok sure | 21:29 |
| delinquentme | sure | 21:29 |
| delinquentme | but should they be operating unchecked | 21:29 |
| delinquentme | and when I say unchecked | 21:29 |
| delinquentme | they're literally answers to no laws | 21:29 |
| delinquentme | they answer to no oneeeeee | 21:29 |
| delinquentme | not us, not the president | 21:30 |
| delinquentme | Money fucking runs shit. | 21:30 |
| delinquentme | THEY own that money | 21:30 |
| delinquentme | *mind explodes* | 21:30 |
| delinquentme | if you cant gather that I cannot help you | 21:30 |
| delinquentme | sorry im too angry to talk moe | 21:30 |
| delinquentme | more* | 21:30 |
| delinquentme | i love you guys | 21:30 |
| delinquentme | but I gotta chill | 21:30 |
| delinquentme | <3 | 21:31 |
| strangewarp | Hopefully the greed-and-puppet show won't collapse until after there's a way for people to grow food out of computers | 21:31 |
| jrayhawk | their job is to maximize economic parameters. they do this by manipulating economic faith. if what happened in september of 2008 was publicly revealed as it played out, what do you think the result would've been? | 21:31 |
| strangewarp | I think helpless anxiety can only go so far, though | 21:31 |
| delinquentme | Money | 21:35 |
| delinquentme | everyone fucking wants it | 21:35 |
| delinquentme | and the discrepancy between what weve seen and what those in control have seen | 21:36 |
| delinquentme | well its like trying to visualize the expanse of our local group | 21:36 |
| delinquentme | fucking big. | 21:36 |
| strangewarp | This has definitely been a superb pummel, but I am somehow demotivated by the awareness of how shitty the world is, combined with how wild-eyed and mayflyish the people who realize it become | 21:39 |
| delinquentme | ... im sorry? | 21:40 |
| delinquentme | i dont follow? | 21:40 |
| delinquentme | strages_home, | 21:40 |
| delinquentme | erm strangewarp | 21:40 |
| delinquentme | ah heres a nice excerpt | 21:41 |
| delinquentme | Instead, with some notable exceptions, the senators themselves turned the cross-examination into a coronation, and exposed the extent to which elected officials still feel compelled to genuflect to powerful financial interests. | 21:41 |
| delinquentme | So. Who governs who? | 21:41 |
| delinquentme | “You’re obviously renowned, rightfully so I think, as being one of the most, you know, one of the best CEOs in the country for financial institutions,” crooned Sen. Bob Corker (R-TN). | 21:42 |
| delinquentme | ahem. | 21:42 |
| delinquentme | actually this is whildly offtopic | 21:42 |
| delinquentme | wildly* | 21:42 |
| jrayhawk | OH REALLY | 21:42 |
| delinquentme | so yeah | 21:42 |
| delinquentme | le sigh | 21:42 |
| * delinquentme huge jrayhawk | 21:42 | |
| delinquentme | I hope we're still ok-ish | 21:43 |
| delinquentme | =] | 21:43 |
| jrayhawk | My opinion of you has not changed significantly, if that helps. | 21:43 |
| delinquentme | appreciated | 21:43 |
| jrayhawk | I am also fucking baffled that I've wound up on the pro-establishment side of anything. | 21:44 |
| strangewarp | On this issue there is no solution short of burning everyone responsible in the streets, and that would entail too much resource diversion away from the H+ project, so hopefully H+ will solve the scarcity-economy thing, and the scarcity-economy thing won't stop H+ in the interim | 21:47 |
| nmz787 | glad to be here to see it jrayhawk | 21:48 |
| delinquentme | strangewarp, you're totally hitting at things near and dear to my heart | 21:49 |
| delinquentme | SCARCITY? | 21:49 |
| delinquentme | IDK | 21:49 |
| delinquentme | yes you're thinking in the right vein here | 21:49 |
| delinquentme | and zeitgeist mentions the jacque guy | 21:50 |
| delinquentme | and thats where the flower power kind of kicks in .. like its a wonderfully idealist view | 21:50 |
| strangewarp | have not heard of this person | 21:50 |
| strangewarp | oh, is it one of those crazy non-technological post-scarce people? | 21:51 |
| Mokbortolan_1 | Fwoosh | 21:52 |
| AdrianG | herpa | 21:52 |
| nmz787 | being in scarcity is why i was saying to grow CNS and leg free cows.... less techno dependence IMO than vat meat | 21:52 |
| nmz787 | damn it's good to come full circle :D | 21:53 |
| kanzure | i don't think your knowledge of post-scarcity topics should come from fucking "Zeitgeist" | 21:54 |
| kanzure | at the very least read what paul wrote he tends to cite helpful things | 21:54 |
| kanzure | delinquentme: http://pdfernhout.net/ | 21:54 |
| delinquentme | kanzure, so I think its OK to say that some of his concepts | 21:55 |
| delinquentme | reference post-scarcity in a reasonable light | 21:56 |
| delinquentme | well.. specifically automation. | 21:56 |
| * strangewarp tabs that link, hugs kanzure, goes to bed | 21:56 | |
| jrayhawk | also i often cook with beef shins and feet and i am resentful of your techno-cows | 21:56 |
| delinquentme | ill leave it at that | 21:56 |
| jrayhawk | i would eat cow-brain, too, but i haven't found a good source for it | 21:56 |
| kanzure | jrayhawk: what about horse-brain? don't you have a bunch of that? | 21:56 |
| jrayhawk | horses are brainless already | 21:56 |
| delinquentme | kanzure, i do like this "The biggest challenge of the 21st century is the irony of technologies of abundance in the hands of those thinking in terms of scarcity." | 21:56 |
| delinquentme | --Paul Fernhout | 21:56 |
| nmz787 | lol | 21:56 |
| kanzure | unfortunately, paul is very anti-diybio | 21:58 |
| nmz787 | how is that? | 21:58 |
| kanzure | nmz787: he thinks that i will probably be the cause of world plague | 21:59 |
| strangewarp | If you are, it had better be a good one. Something monstery | 22:00 |
| jrayhawk | it'll be an exceptionally nerdy plague. The white plague. | 22:00 |
| kanzure | meanwhile joe's brother thinks i'll probably blow up the world through other means | 22:01 |
| kanzure | i get no breaks :( | 22:01 |
| jrayhawk | he thinks everyone will blow up the world through rational indiscipline | 22:01 |
| jrayhawk | including himself | 22:01 |
| jrayhawk | you don't get to feel special, there | 22:01 |
| kanzure | hmm | 22:01 |
| kanzure | well okay, that's true | 22:01 |
| kanzure | if SIAI was to formulate an opinion about transhumanism, at least a more publicly-espoused one, then i suspect it would be negative | 22:02 |
| kanzure | (or of the same form like "you guys are going to blow up the world") | 22:03 |
| jrayhawk | Maybe anti-diybio; lesswrong is loosely transhumanist. | 22:04 |
| jrayhawk | Eh, I guess that's pushing the definition a bit. | 22:05 |
| kanzure | can anyone find me an android mobile ad network for russia or saudi arabia? | 22:09 |
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| AdrianG | lol CNS and leg free cows | 22:36 |
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| delinquentme | kanzure, have you read these papers that Fernhout wrote on vitamin D? | 23:02 |
| kanzure | not thoroughly | 23:02 |
| kanzure | ask fenn | 23:02 |
| ParahSailin__ | solution to peak phosphorus? | 23:03 |
| ParahSailin__ | seasteading + kelp farms | 23:04 |
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| --- Log closed Thu Jul 26 00:00:19 2012 | ||
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