| --- Log opened Mon Sep 17 00:00:28 2012 | ||
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| skorket | nmz787, not sure if you're interested, but I just altered grbl to give back some feedback about position, current feed/seek rate and spindle settings | 00:37 |
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| skorket | almost there. Think I'm getting too tired to continue tonight, but I'm close | 00:47 |
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| delinquentme | kanzure, whats up with those papers on TPB and why did it take so long? | 07:39 |
| delinquentme | I thought it was already out there seeing? | 07:39 |
| kanzure | sense your messages do not make | 07:44 |
| chris_99 | what's on TPB? | 07:44 |
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| skorket | the pirate bay | 07:55 |
| skorket | I bet you meant 'seeding' not 'seeing' | 07:55 |
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| kanzure | skorket: yes we know what the pirate bay is. | 08:08 |
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| skorket | whoops, misread it, my bad | 08:08 |
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| kirka | Hi | 08:29 |
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| kirka | Did somebody work on nanoengineer-1 chroot? | 08:29 |
| kirka | I\m trying to get it working | 08:29 |
| kirka | kanzure: I have "main.py: cannot connect to X server :0.0" | 08:30 |
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| kirka | So, QT4 doesn't load | 08:38 |
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| kirka | Yeah, I started it | 08:56 |
| kirka | Some xhost shamanism and voila | 08:56 |
| kirka | Slooow~ | 08:59 |
| kirka | That's becaouse of lack of powerful 3d accelerator | 08:59 |
| kirka | *because | 08:59 |
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| kirka | But again, that's not so heavy 3D graphics, and it's only ~5 fps | 09:10 |
| kirka | Solidworks runs quite large models smoothly on my PC | 09:10 |
| strangewarp | hmmm | 09:10 |
| strangewarp | http://craphound.com/rotn/Cory_Doctorow_and_Charles_Stross_-_Rapture_of_the_Nerds.html | 09:10 |
| strangewarp | For those of you who like novels. | 09:11 |
| kirka | I wonder, if linear algebra behind model drawing in NE1 is calculated in python | 09:11 |
| kirka | strangewarp Too popular, I suggest | 09:15 |
| strangewarp | Bah, it's okay to indulge in popular entertainment, just so long as you have well-tended gardens of internal criticism ;) | 09:19 |
| kirka | I don't have time to do that | 09:21 |
| * strangewarp nods.. | 09:22 | |
| jrayhawk | kirka: you can 'for i in tmp proc dev; do mount --bind /$i /path/to/chroot/$i; done' | 09:23 |
| jrayhawk | which gets you the X socket in /tmp and /dev/dri | 09:24 |
| jrayhawk | which means you'll be running at native speed | 09:24 |
| kirka | jrayhawk: Thanks | 09:25 |
| kirka | jrayhawk: Are you involved with NE1? | 09:25 |
| jrayhawk | I probably helped construct that chroot, but I've never run NE1 myself. | 09:26 |
| jrayhawk | I think I tried briefly and decided I hated Python. | 09:27 |
| kirka | I don't like it at all too, actually. | 09:27 |
| kirka | But NE1 is the only program of it's kind. | 09:28 |
| kirka | If I had a lot of time (2-4 months) I probably coul rewrite subset of it in more portable language | 09:29 |
| kirka | But there are 34 MB of dources, it's quite big. | 09:30 |
| jrayhawk | python's pretty portable; it's more the unstable API that's the issue | 09:30 |
| kirka | Yes, that;s what i don't like most | 09:31 |
| Urchin | I really hate programming languages that change on you suddenly | 09:32 |
| jrayhawk | It's amusing that futurists didn't choose a future-proof language. | 09:32 |
| kirka | Heh | 09:32 |
| Urchin | what would be a modern future-proof language? | 09:32 |
| kirka | I'm not GUI programmer at all | 09:32 |
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| jrayhawk | C, C++, and, remarkably, Perl | 09:33 |
| eudoxia | kanzure, yesterday you were wondering whether NE1 ran on Windows 7 | 09:33 |
| eudoxia | it does | 09:33 |
| jrayhawk | not that i would suggest writing a program of this scale in perl | 09:33 |
| eudoxia | though apparently it only runs on my Win 7 | 09:33 |
| chris_99 | why perl? | 09:33 |
| kirka | Urchin Maybe something VM-based with unambigous specification like JVM. | 09:33 |
| Urchin | perl is mostly frozen | 09:33 |
| kirka | eudoxia How did you managed to run it? | 09:34 |
| jrayhawk | perl has, like, twenty years of demonstrated backwards compatibility | 09:34 |
| Urchin | I have considered C and Perl | 09:34 |
| eudoxia | kirka I didn't do anything out of the ordinary, just download install | 09:34 |
| Urchin | C++ i better avoided | 09:34 |
| kirka | eudoxia I'll try now | 09:34 |
| jrayhawk | with C++0x, c++ is actually a halfway decent language now | 09:35 |
| kirka | Too large spec | 09:35 |
| jrayhawk | you can treat it with C with typeclasses! | 09:35 |
| kirka | Platforms change | 09:35 |
| jrayhawk | s/treat it with/treat it as/ | 09:35 |
| eudoxia | C has changed so little it's rather annoying | 09:35 |
| Urchin | eudoxia: that's it's good side, like I said, I hate languages changing on me | 09:36 |
| kirka | Software like NE1 should have portable IO layer for display and mouse/keyboard io | 09:36 |
| Urchin | and it's fairly capable to begin with | 09:36 |
| kirka | C would fit perfectly, but it's not expressive enough | 09:36 |
| eudoxia | You can continue adding features without compromising backwards-compatibility | 09:36 |
| Urchin | kirka: what's missing? | 09:37 |
| kirka | I would embed scheme interpreter in C and design the software around that, (or used Racket for everything) but that's not OK if there is a team | 09:37 |
| eudoxia | kirka It would be far more efficient to compile the Scheme to C/ASM/LLVM | 09:38 |
| Urchin | kirka: how well do you use function pointers? | 09:38 |
| kirka | Urchin I do, I also know how to debug them, heh | 09:38 |
| Urchin | then you're close to having the capabilities of scheme | 09:38 |
| kirka | eudoxia You are right, that could work | 09:39 |
| eudoxia | see Icarus scheme, Vicare scheme, all compile to x86 assembly and are as fast as C | 09:39 |
| eudoxia | and have pointers | 09:39 |
| kirka | Urchin dynamic languages are convenient to create GUIs. C will be too verbose for that. I use C, for example, in programming microcontrollers or simulators, there it fits perfectly | 09:40 |
| chris_99 | C + gtk work ok | 09:40 |
| chris_99 | i admit it's quite verbose though | 09:40 |
| kirka | eudoxia Haven't heard about Vicare scheme, thanks | 09:40 |
| kirka | eudoxia Everything could be written in Racket scheme, btw | 09:41 |
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| kirka | NE1 doesn't work: | 09:42 |
| kirka | File "multiarray.pyc", line 10, in __load | 09:42 |
| kirka | ImportError: DLL load failed: The parameter is incorrect. | 09:42 |
| kirka | Hmm | 09:42 |
| kirka | eudoxia: You are lucky | 09:44 |
| eudoxia | I honestly don't know how I got it to work | 09:44 |
| kirka | That depends on OS and hardware, I have x64 version | 09:44 |
| eudoxia | hm | 09:45 |
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| eudoxia | I have the 32 bit Win7 running an a 64 bit processor | 09:45 |
| eudoxia | yeah yeah I suck but it might have something to do with it | 09:45 |
| kirka | Not a problem, probably we'll deal with it sometime | 09:45 |
| kirka | Yes, it could, of course | 09:46 |
| kirka | Actually, I do not understand, why NE1's source is 34MB | 09:47 |
| eudoxia | oh no guys the NE wiki is down | 09:47 |
| kirka | Yes | 09:47 |
| kirka | kanzure said that he'll do something about it later | 09:47 |
| Urchin | scheme 6 is industry oriented | 09:48 |
| jrayhawk | i wonder if "do something about it" means "bug jrayhawk" | 09:48 |
| Urchin | not used much, but you could always work at it | 09:48 |
| kirka | Heh | 09:48 |
| Urchin | where are the ne1 repositories, btw? | 09:49 |
| eudoxia | https://github.com/kanzure/nanoengineer | 09:49 |
| kirka | Urchin The thing I like about scheme is that it's defined in ~2 screens of scheme code. And python is defined by a large body of C code. | 09:49 |
| kirka | Software aimed for the future should be written in easy to implement language | 09:50 |
| kirka | Platforms and OSes change constantly | 09:50 |
| eudoxia | why two screens? you can just say (loop (print (eval (read)))) | 09:50 |
| Urchin | I've done a bit of scheme, can't say I know it, though | 09:50 |
| kirka | eudoxia That's cheating :) | 09:50 |
| eudoxia | As much as I like Lisp, I'd prefer it if there was a Lisp with a hybrid type system | 09:51 |
| kirka | Static+dynamic? | 09:51 |
| eudoxia | dynamic and static, not just Common Lisp's "hurr (declare) macro" | 09:51 |
| kirka | There was "stalin" scheme compiler, by J. Siskind. It optimized very agressively and performed complete type inference inside with no type declarations from programmer. | 09:52 |
| kirka | But it doesn't work on modern OSes and x64. | 09:53 |
| kirka | http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stalin_(Scheme_implementation) | 09:53 |
| eudoxia | I guess type inference is a good alternative to dynamic typing | 09:54 |
| kirka | I think smart compiler should do it by itself, and only rarely ask programmer. | 09:54 |
| eudoxia | Although, what if you do (nth ([some computation that returns an unsigned integer]) '(1 3.14 "herp")) | 09:54 |
| eudoxia | the machine can't infer, at compile time, whether that expression will return an integer, a double or a string | 09:55 |
| eudoxia | that's the main problem I ran into when trying to implement my hybrid-typed Lisp, so I just went for static typing and maybe in the future I'll add something like boost::variant with automatic type unboxing | 09:56 |
| kirka | If compiler has access to whole program (as in case of numeric codes which are of interest to me) then types could be ambiguous only around IO. | 09:57 |
| kirka | In your case '(1 3.14 "herp") is a constant. | 09:57 |
| eudoxia | but the first argument to nth is not | 09:58 |
| kirka | Some amount of runtime type checking will remain if necessary, C++ does that too. | 09:58 |
| kirka | vtables and such | 09:59 |
| eudoxia | (nth 0 '(1 3.14 "herp")) -> int, (nth 1 '(1 3.14 "herp")) -> double, (nth 2 '(1 3.14 "herp")) -> char*, the machine can't know at compile time if, for example, the number comes from something like (read-int-from-console) | 09:59 |
| kirka | Yes, IO is a major problem. | 09:59 |
| kirka | It seems that it's enough for just IO routines to be strictly typed | 10:00 |
| kirka | But I don't have a formal proof of that | 10:00 |
| kirka | If program communicates with outside world only by IO | 10:00 |
| kirka | Well defined IO | 10:00 |
| kirka | Then I don't think why we couldn't infer types for everything that's inside. | 10:01 |
| kirka | Though I haven't learned type theory much | 10:02 |
| kirka | Stalin does something like that, and for numeric code that's enough | 10:03 |
| docl | someone should write them a haskell in like 2 screens of haskell. | 10:04 |
| kirka | Heh, I don't think that's possible, for all that syntatctic sugar around System F | 10:05 |
| * docl is more familiar with forth | 10:06 | |
| kirka | Language discussion is potentially endless | 10:06 |
| docl | yeah | 10:07 |
| kirka | Algorithms and math are more important | 10:08 |
| chris_99 | kirka, did you say you do image processing-y stuff btw? | 10:08 |
| kirka | chris_99 Yes, I do | 10:08 |
| chris_99 | have you done much image recognition? | 10:08 |
| kirka | chris_99 I'm writing something like Viola-Jones object detector, and I'm interested in stereovision. | 10:09 |
| chris_99 | cool, i'm just trying to recognise simple rectangles, and the hough transform is failing me | 10:09 |
| chris_99 | any ideas of anything else i could use | 10:10 |
| kirka | Rectangles? | 10:10 |
| chris_99 | yeah just simple shape detection | 10:10 |
| eudoxia | Canny? | 10:11 |
| kirka | So, you detect lines and then try to infer which of them look like a rectangle together? | 10:11 |
| chris_99 | edge detection by itself isn't enough eudoxia | 10:11 |
| chris_99 | kirka, well hough transform wasn't good at finding lines | 10:12 |
| eudoxia | right, i realized now when I read kirka's post | 10:12 |
| kirka | chris_99 Strange, it shpuld work | 10:12 |
| chris_99 | i've heard someone else say it's not esp. good too | 10:12 |
| kirka | chris_99 What's wrong with it? | 10:12 |
| chris_99 | it just didn't find the lines i wanted | 10:12 |
| kirka | Not enough contrast? | 10:14 |
| chris_99 | there was plenty of contrast tbh | 10:14 |
| kirka | Hmm | 10:14 |
| chris_99 | i ran it through an edge detect too prior | 10:14 |
| chris_99 | this viola-jones detector sounds interesting | 10:15 |
| kirka | Did you try to tune voting threshold? | 10:15 |
| kirka | It's not suitable for lines | 10:15 |
| chris_99 | i generated lots of different ammounts of lines | 10:15 |
| kirka | V-J is good for faces and other blob objects | 10:16 |
| chris_99 | and i had to add an insanely high value to detect the lines | 10:16 |
| chris_99 | i needed | 10:16 |
| chris_99 | which produced a _lot_ of rubbish | 10:16 |
| chris_99 | ah, well the rectangles could be thought of as blobs | 10:16 |
| kirka | There could be better algorithm, but I don't know it. CV is active field and I'm not specialist. | 10:17 |
| chris_99 | i'll keep on looking :) | 10:17 |
| kirka | chris_99 Maybe you should filter lines by length and orientation? | 10:18 |
| kirka | (result lines) | 10:18 |
| chris_99 | yeah i was thinking of doing something like orientation | 10:18 |
| chris_99 | and parallel lines | 10:18 |
| chris_99 | but the ammount of reduntant lines makes me think it wont work too well | 10:19 |
| kirka | Yes, I would filter small lines and tried ti check which of the remaining ones could form a rectangle | 10:19 |
| kirka | I would form functional criterion for a rectangle | 10:20 |
| chris_99 | the problem is hough just gives polar coords really doesn't it iirc | 10:20 |
| kirka | And scored all 4-line-sets by this criterion | 10:20 |
| kirka | Yes, in most implementations | 10:20 |
| kirka | For rectangle (not parallelogram?) | 10:21 |
| chris_99 | yeah i'm looking for rectangles not parellelograms | 10:21 |
| kirka | You would need to check all 4-tuples of 2 parallel and 2 antiparallel lines | 10:21 |
| kirka | That's probably slow | 10:21 |
| chris_99 | i think i need an alg. geared at rectangles tbh | 10:21 |
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| chris_99 | i wonder about machine learning algs. | 10:23 |
| chris_99 | i might try something like that | 10:23 |
| chris_99 | back in a bit | 10:23 |
| kirka | Well, ML isn't magic, you should formulate your problem in a standard way, e.g. classification problem | 10:24 |
| kirka | Does your Hough Transform result contain needed lines? | 10:25 |
| kirka | If so, then chicking which ones are parts of rectangle should not be a problem | 10:25 |
| kanzure | um, why is nanoengineer only running 5 fps for you? | 10:33 |
| kirka | kanzure 5 fps for rotating carbohydrate sleeve bearing in ball-stick view | 10:34 |
| kanzure | jrayhawk: it sounds like i am missing some instructions in the chroot notes in nanoengineer's README.. mount --bind for tmp proc dev, but what about the xhost stuff? or was that just kirka? | 10:34 |
| kirka | kanzure xhost worked couple of times, but after VM reboot it doesn't connect to X again. I'll deal with it tomorrow. | 10:35 |
| jrayhawk | once you define DISPLAY=:0 X11 will automatically attempt to use /tmp/.X11-unix/X0 | 10:36 |
| kanzure | eudoxia: yes, i'm harrassing mark sims about the wiki problems. | 10:36 |
| kirka | kanzure So, if I understand correctly, the only library problems are with python libs (numpy etc), not with native code (GROMACS, Nanodynamics)? | 10:36 |
| kanzure | gromacs has a new version that is not integrated into nanoengineer | 10:39 |
| kanzure | i haven't tried using nanodynamics | 10:39 |
| kirka | I though it uses it by default. | 10:39 |
| kanzure | nah you have to click a button | 10:39 |
| kirka | Yes, "Simulation" | 10:39 |
| kirka | I did it under windows xp, it worked. | 10:40 |
| kanzure | kirka: a helpful thing to do would be to write some unit tests | 10:40 |
| kanzure | if you write unit tests, then when i am working on upgrading other parts of the software, i can tell when things get broken more easily | 10:41 |
| kirka | I think that if GROMACS (or LAMMPS) has explicit integrator API, making anchors and motors work there wouldn't be much problem. | 10:41 |
| kanzure | are you familiar with unit testing? | 10:41 |
| kirka | kanzure I'm not application programmer, I haven't written a single unit test in my life. And I haven't written large GUI programs. NE1 isn't something that's familiar to me. | 10:42 |
| kirka | Heh | 10:42 |
| kanzure | unit testing is very simple in concept | 10:43 |
| kirka | I could help with MD though | 10:43 |
| kanzure | http://docs.python.org/library/unittest.html#basic-example | 10:43 |
| kanzure | their example sucks because it uses a random function (wtf) | 10:43 |
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| kirka | kanzure To write tests I have to be familiar with NE1 architecture. | 10:43 |
| kanzure | hmm maybe not | 10:44 |
| kirka | I think that I can write standalone simulator that reads MMP and simulates it in GROMACS or LAMMPS. Such software would be useful for me. | 10:44 |
| kanzure | here is an example unit test from pokecrystal that i wrote (it's a disassembly of pokemon crystal): | 10:44 |
| kanzure | https://github.com/kanzure/pokecrystal/blob/master/extras/crystal.py#L8225 | 10:44 |
| kirka | Pokemon ^__^ | 10:45 |
| kanzure | this one tests that a function still works as intended.. the function just extracts certain data from a line | 10:45 |
| kanzure | yeah, it's a compiling version of pokemon crystal | 10:45 |
| kirka | * is quite afraid of industrial programming | 10:45 |
| kirka | kanzure Could you elaborate about core features of NE1? | 10:46 |
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| kirka | I thought it's a constructor to build models of atomic structures, with some convenient tools (extrude, crystal, DNA, Protein and so on). | 10:47 |
| kanzure | correct.. | 10:47 |
| kanzure | but it's not just GUI tools | 10:47 |
| kanzure | there were other libraries written | 10:47 |
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| kanzure | like nanoengineer/cad/src/model/ | 10:48 |
| kirka | Why is it so large? I'm in awe when i look in src | 10:48 |
| kanzure | however, not all of these modules were written to be separable | 10:48 |
| kirka | Hmm | 10:48 |
| kirka | I think simulator should be standalone. It's the most complex part (with support for distributed computing, accelerators and so on). | 10:49 |
| kanzure | it's large because of the .mmp files in nanoengineer/cad/src/experimental/ | 10:49 |
| jrayhawk | oh, i guess if you don't have matching uids inside and outside the chroot, xhost +local: might be necessary | 10:49 |
| kirka | Oh, now I understand | 10:49 |
| kirka | jrayhawk That's for me? | 10:50 |
| kanzure | dna-examples/ is 8.4 MB, namot/scripts/ is 7 .6 MB, pyrex-opengl/ is 1.6 MB | 10:50 |
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| kirka | kanzure Pyrex and psyco scares me | 10:50 |
| jrayhawk | maybe; i wasn't really paying attention to the original issue, just what kanzure was talking about with instructions | 10:51 |
| kirka | They are incompatible | 10:51 |
| kanzure | nanoengineer/cad/src/commands/ is 2 MB | 10:52 |
| kirka | kanzure jrayhawk Could you look at this log? http://pastebin.com/JJELVDuf | 10:53 |
| kirka | Ah, I have to mount | 10:53 |
| kanzure | hmm i will add those instructions to the README | 10:53 |
| kirka | They do not still work | 10:54 |
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| kirka | It worked for couple of times though | 10:54 |
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| kirka | Hmm, well, I'll deal with that later. | 10:55 |
| kanzure | kirka: try with DISPLAY=:0 at the front of the command | 10:57 |
| kanzure | "_X11TransSocketINETConnect() can't get address for localhost:6000: Name or service not known" | 10:57 |
| kanzure | "main.py: cannot connect to X server :0.0" | 10:57 |
| kanzure | hmm. | 10:57 |
| kirka | Nope, main.py: cannot connect to X server :0 | 10:57 |
| kirka | You have the same issue? | 10:58 |
| kanzure | try this: | 10:58 |
| kanzure | DISPLAY=127.0.0.1:6000 python ~/code/nanoengineer/cad/src/main.py | 10:58 |
| kanzure | i think 6000 might be wrong | 10:59 |
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| jrayhawk | 6000 is the right port if you're connecting over TCP, but most distributions default to nolistentcp | 10:59 |
| kirka | Nope, main.py: cannot connect to X server 127.0.0.1:6000 | 11:00 |
| jrayhawk | er, -nolisten tcp | 11:00 |
| kirka | Distro is Ubuntu 12.04 | 11:00 |
| kanzure | jrayhawk: for some reason in my notes i used port 11. i'm not sure why. :( | 11:00 |
| jrayhawk | kirka: inside the chroot, is there a /tmp/.X11-unix/X0 ? | 11:00 |
| kirka | /tmp/.X11-unix/ Is empty | 11:01 |
| jrayhawk | Outside the chroot, is there a /tmp/.X11-unix/X0 | 11:02 |
| kirka | Yes | 11:02 |
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| kirka | I'll copy | 11:02 |
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| jrayhawk | You can't copy a socket, you need to mount --bind /tmp /home/user/Desktop/root/nanoengineer-chroot/tmp | 11:03 |
| kirka | Thanks | 11:03 |
| jrayhawk | And you should probably mount --bind /dev /home/user/Desktop/root/nanoengineer-chroot/dev | 11:03 |
| jrayhawk | to get DRI working. | 11:03 |
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| kanzure | i thought that's what 'for i in tmp proc dev' was supposed ot do. | 11:04 |
| kanzure | *to do. | 11:04 |
| jrayhawk | Yeah. | 11:04 |
| kirka | kanzure That script complains | 11:05 |
| kirka | jrayhawk Thanks, with DISPLAY=0.0 it works! | 11:05 |
| kirka | This should be automated. | 11:05 |
| kanzure | under what circumstances should i tell users to use DISPLAY=127.0.0.1:6000? | 11:05 |
| kanzure | kirka: yes, i'm adding the mount --bind instructions to the README. | 11:05 |
| jrayhawk | I cannot think of a circumstance under which going over the local networking stack is a win. | 11:05 |
| kirka | Why should users care about this low level stuff | 11:06 |
| kanzure | this isn't for users. this is for developers. | 11:06 |
| kirka | *Has a long history of X hating | 11:06 |
| kanzure | the problem is that nanoengineer lost 10 programmers in 2008 and i'm the only guy left (oh, and nmz787 wrote some code too) | 11:07 |
| kanzure | s/left/working on it | 11:07 |
| kirka | Yes, thank you | 11:07 |
| kirka | Without you this software would be completely abandoned | 11:08 |
| jrayhawk | Some network abstraction is prudent if you care about isolation, I guess, but you also lose hardware acceleration in the process. | 11:08 |
| jrayhawk | isolation should probably be done with lxc+xpra | 11:08 |
| jrayhawk | Have you played with xpra before, kanzure? | 11:08 |
| kanzure | no | 11:08 |
| kirka | 5 fps haven't improved btw, with mount /dev and /tmp | 11:08 |
| kirka | Actually, 3 fps :) | 11:09 |
| jrayhawk | It's sortof like xhost, only detachable and actually integrates the windows under its control with your window manager | 11:09 |
| kirka | kanzure Where is numpy used (in NE1)? | 11:09 |
| kanzure | the master branch does not use numpy, it uses numeric | 11:09 |
| jrayhawk | kirka: inside the chroot, glxinfo | grep direct | 11:09 |
| kanzure | nmz787 has a branch on github somewhere that uses numpy instead of numeric | 11:09 |
| kirka | How are 3D rotations of models calculated? | 11:10 |
| kanzure | graphics card (or mesa) | 11:10 |
| kirka | direct rendering: No | 11:10 |
| jrayhawk | outside the chroot, glxinfo | grep direct | 11:10 |
| kirka | direct rendering: Yes | 11:11 |
| kanzure | hmmm | 11:11 |
| kirka | There is /dev/dri in chroot | 11:11 |
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| kanzure | jrayhawk: can you review? https://github.com/kanzure/nanoengineer/pull/1/files | 11:13 |
| jrayhawk | I would suspect a permissions problem on /dev/dri, but your pastbin doohickey suggests you're running as root...? | 11:13 |
| kirka | I'm also inside VM | 11:14 |
| kirka | That could be the problem | 11:14 |
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| kanzure | well, nanoengineer has to run as nanoengineeruser in the chroot because i installed it as a non-root user | 11:14 |
| kanzure | dunno if that's what you're talking about jrayhawk. | 11:14 |
| jrayhawk | Oh. Is nanoengineeruser in group video? | 11:15 |
| kirka | kanzure For me this worked: | 11:15 |
| kirka | sudo mount --bind /tmp /home/user/Desktop/root/nanoengineer-chroot/tmp | 11:15 |
| kirka | sudo mount --bind /dev /home/user/Desktop/root/nanoengineer-chroot/dev | 11:15 |
| kirka | Oh, how do I check? | 11:15 |
| jrayhawk | sudo -u nanoengineer id | 11:15 |
| jrayhawk | errr | 11:15 |
| jrayhawk | sudo -u nanoengineeruser id | 11:15 |
| jrayhawk | sorry | 11:15 |
| kirka | Outside it says | 11:16 |
| kirka | sudo: unknown user: nanoengineeruser | 11:16 |
| kirka | sudo: unable to initialize policy plugin | 11:16 |
| jrayhawk | judging from the copy of that chroot on gnusha, the answer is no | 11:17 |
| jrayhawk | inside the chroot, adduser nanoengineeruser video | 11:17 |
| kirka | How do I add him to group video? | 11:17 |
| jrayhawk | although if you were inside the chroot and running glxinfo | grep direct as root, then something else has gone wrong | 11:18 |
| jrayhawk | root wouldn't have permissions problems | 11:18 |
| kirka | NOpe, doesn't accelerate | 11:19 |
| kirka | root@user-VirtualBox:/# glxinfo | grep direct | 11:19 |
| kirka | Error: unable to open display (null) | 11:19 |
| jrayhawk | kanzure: re: https://github.com/kanzure/nanoengineer/pull/1/files: 'mount' should be preceded by 'sudo' | 11:19 |
| jrayhawk | huh | 11:19 |
| kirka | nanoengineeruser@user-VirtualBox:/$ DISPLAY=:0.0 | 11:19 |
| kirka | nanoengineeruser@user-VirtualBox:/$ glxinfo | grep direct | 11:19 |
| kirka | direct rendering: No | 11:19 |
| kirka | Oh that's ok, I'm glad that it does work. | 11:20 |
| jrayhawk | for the root, you need DISPLAY=:0 glxinfo | grep direct | 11:20 |
| kirka | root@user-VirtualBox:/# DISPLAY=:0 glxinfo | grep direct | 11:20 |
| kirka | direct rendering: No | 11:20 |
| jrayhawk | perturbing. I guess I should go play with this myself. | 11:21 |
| kirka | I'm accustomed to that, it's Linux, heh | 11:21 |
| kirka | Well, If all I need is molecular constructor with some conveniences like extrusion, and crystal generation, I could write this prototype myself | 11:22 |
| kirka | It would be interesting | 11:22 |
| kirka | But it's sad not to use NE1 | 11:23 |
| kirka | * I could write this simple prototype myself | 11:23 |
| kirka | I should understand it's features at least | 11:24 |
| kanzure | huh? why not use nanoengineer? | 11:28 |
| kanzure | also, please excuse our ineptitude when it comes to installing nanoengineer on your system, we've never done that before | 11:28 |
| kanzure | you're person #5, this hasn't been battle-tested. | 11:28 |
| kirka | Oh, guys you are already heroes for supporting this software | 11:29 |
| kirka | These are little problems | 11:29 |
| kirka | And you probably have a full time job | 11:29 |
| jrayhawk | actually i don't think all that many of us bother with those | 11:30 |
| kanzure | i work when i feel like it | 11:30 |
| jrayhawk | same here | 11:30 |
| jrayhawk | though kanzure's level of feeling-like-it is probably equivalent to full-time | 11:31 |
| kirka | >why not use nanoengineer? | 11:31 |
| kirka | I'm afraid that it's too complex for me to comprehend in reasonable time. Though I'm thinking how I could help the project. | 11:31 |
| kanzure | it's incomprehensible? | 11:31 |
| kirka | I am not professional application programmer | 11:32 |
| kirka | I don't know how I could make it run faster for example | 11:32 |
| jrayhawk | 11:09 < jrayhawk> It's sortof like xhost, only detachable and actually integrates the windows under its control with your window manager | 11:32 |
| jrayhawk | fuck, i meant it's like xnest | 11:32 |
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| jrayhawk | i guess 'screen for X11' might be a better summary | 11:33 |
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| kirka | *I don't know how I could make it run faster | 11:36 |
| kirka | without major rewrite | 11:36 |
| kirka | And multithreading internal simulator would be complex | 11:36 |
| kanzure | well, the reason it is slow is because we are failing to get it working properly on your system | 11:37 |
| kirka | btw | 11:37 |
| kirka | I could upload virtual box image to the torrents when it'll work stable | 11:37 |
| kanzure | the main thing that nanoengineer needs is to split into multiple submodules/programs that can be used elsewhere, and not in one giant monolithic program (nanoengineer) | 11:38 |
| kirka | That could simplify things for others | 11:38 |
| kanzure | virtualbox is awful.. don't use virtualbox | 11:38 |
| kirka | kanzure Yes, you are absoultely right | 11:38 |
| jrayhawk | yeah, we're already virtualizing the userspace with a chroot | 11:38 |
| jrayhawk | there's no reason to virtualize the kernel as well | 11:38 |
| kirka | If your host OS is Linux, yes | 11:39 |
| kirka | Heh | 11:39 |
| jrayhawk | If your host OS is Windows, use the Windows version | 11:39 |
| kanzure | if your host os is not linux then use the windows or mac binaries | 11:39 |
| kanzure | yes | 11:39 |
| jrayhawk | if your host OS is OS X, use the OS X version | 11:39 |
| kirka | Tried to | 11:39 |
| kanzure | oh i think the wiki went down, which hosted those versions | 11:39 |
| kirka | It doesn't work under win7, some numarray DLL not loading | 11:39 |
| kanzure | did you install it? | 11:39 |
| kirka | I have backup | 11:39 |
| kirka | Yes, I did | 11:39 |
| kirka | I have 3 installs now | 11:39 |
| jrayhawk | haha | 11:39 |
| kanzure | ok. numarray sounds like the sort of thing that would be 32/64-bit-sensitive to me. | 11:40 |
| jrayhawk | what a loveley development quagmire we're contributing to | 11:40 |
| jrayhawk | lovely | 11:40 |
| kirka | Under Windows XP it mostly works fine (I could give a VM image), under Ubuntu 120.04 it workd partly and under Win7 it does not work yet. | 11:40 |
| kanzure | jrayhawk: yeah! i know, i have a great idea! let's complicate things by virtualizing the software for a fourth sketchy platform. | 11:40 |
| kirka | kanzure Yes | 11:40 |
| kirka | Heh | 11:40 |
| kanzure | yes, it was not developed on windows 7 ever | 11:41 |
| kirka | >split into multiple submodules/programs that can be used elsewhere | 11:41 |
| kanzure | it was pre-win7-existence | 11:41 |
| kirka | kanzure, That;s very good idea | 11:41 |
| kanzure | kirka: yes, for example the mmps file format and library inside nanoengineer | 11:41 |
| kanzure | erm, mmp | 11:41 |
| kirka | If we had clearly designed architecture eith defined file formats and interaction rules, it couls make things much more easier | 11:41 |
| jrayhawk | the demand for a fourth sketchy platform is an indication that the platform portability hole being dug deeper faster than we're filling it in | 11:42 |
| kirka | I think there should be simple CAD tool for atomic design, which saves to MMP. MMP could be simulated by (little modified) GROMACS in parallel. | 11:43 |
| kanzure | have you used gromacs in the past? | 11:43 |
| kirka | No, but I understand physics and numerics behind MD. | 11:44 |
| kirka | The only thing I'll need to do is add MMP reader and motors/anchors modules and link them with GROMACS properly | 11:45 |
| gnusha | nanoengineer.git: aedf2e2 use mount --bind to wire the chroot to /dev/dri | 11:45 |
| gnusha | nanoengineer.git: 09ef841 definitely mount --bind these things | 11:45 |
| gnusha | nanoengineer.git: 5a85236 mount should be preceded by sudo | 11:45 |
| gnusha | nanoengineer.git: e14a33a Merge pull request #1 from kanzure/chrootreadmeupdate1 | 11:45 |
| kanzure | my hobby: submiting myself pull requests to feel loved | 11:46 |
| kirka | Heh | 11:46 |
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| kirka | Hmm http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ascalaph_Designer | 12:04 |
| kirka | Molecular modeling package | 12:04 |
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| kirka | http://www.biomolecular-modeling.com/Gallery.html | 12:07 |
| kirka | Of courese NE1 is more developed | 12:08 |
| kirka | *course | 12:08 |
| kirka | This is for small molecules | 12:08 |
| kirka | NE1 has it's niche | 12:08 |
| kirka | We (I?) should modularize and optimize it | 12:09 |
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| kanzure | *submitting | 12:11 |
| kirka | Ascalaph is GPL, and there is quantum chemistry simulation | 12:12 |
| kirka | We could stel something from it | 12:12 |
| kirka | *steal | 12:12 |
| kirka | And it's MD engine is quite advenced | 12:12 |
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| kirka | *advanced | 12:17 |
| kirka | yes, it's for biomolecules | 12:19 |
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| kirka | I'm playing with it | 12:20 |
| kirka | Well, GUI is convenient and fast | 12:20 |
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| * kirka folds chignolin with MD@Ascalaph | 12:38 | |
| * kanzure folds kirka | 12:41 | |
| chris_99 | i'm just reading http://kitto.cm.utexas.edu/research/Kittolabpage/Protocols/Microbiology/electroporation.html | 12:53 |
| chris_99 | is 400V common for electroporation | 12:53 |
| kanzure | i remember some electroporation protocols using more volts than electrophoresis power supplies.. | 12:54 |
| chris_99 | yeah that's what i thought too | 12:55 |
| chris_99 | i thought they where in the KV | 12:55 |
| chris_99 | normally | 12:55 |
| chris_99 | yeah in http://peds.oxfordjournals.org/content/early/2010/02/03/protein.gzq002.full | 12:58 |
| chris_99 | they're using 2.5KV | 12:58 |
| chris_99 | they also mention they're using 25 µF | 12:59 |
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| kirka | *Gies to sleep | 13:03 |
| * kirka sleeps | 13:03 | |
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| archels | http://gizmodo.com/5943572/youd-never-get-lost-with-a-pair-of-these-gps-shoes | 13:04 |
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| chris_99 | haha | 13:05 |
| chris_99 | genius | 13:05 |
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| kanzure | any objections? https://github.com/kanzure/nanoengineer/pull/2 | 14:00 |
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| archels | using \t instead of spaces is good karma. | 14:24 |
| kanzure | /kick archels | 14:32 |
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| skorket | hey all | 14:42 |
| @kanzure | let's all move to kansas, get lots of bandwidth into a commune and call it hacker fortress | 14:42 |
| skorket | I'm in | 14:42 |
| strangewarp | You'll need to be self-sustaining, in preparation for the day the world is overrun by dire postmodernists | 14:46 |
| strangewarp | In the night, you will hear their cries: "LACAAAAANNN" | 14:46 |
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| eudoxia | we should move to Arizona and found a commune of cryonicists with lots of bandwidth and in-house nitrogen liquefaction | 15:04 |
| eudoxia | we'll call it "The Mike Darwin Memorial Fortress" | 15:05 |
| @kanzure | mike isn't dead yet | 15:08 |
| eudoxia | I know | 15:09 |
| eudoxia | I'm planning for the future | 15:09 |
| cpopell | eudoxia, start doing apps? | 15:12 |
| eudoxia | mostly studying for the SAT | 15:13 |
| cpopell | ah | 15:13 |
| cpopell | it's pretty easy | 15:13 |
| cpopell | practice your analytical writing I guess | 15:13 |
| @kanzure | eudoxia: take my advice and throw it in the trash | 15:13 |
| eudoxia | kanzure: but all the cool cats of transhumanism went to MIT, except Eliezer | 15:13 |
| eudoxia | who is a wizard | 15:14 |
| cpopell | eudoxia: I will let you rent a room from me when I buy a house if you end up in DC Metro area :V | 15:14 |
| cpopell | you can have a lab | 15:14 |
| eudoxia | Deus Ex HR the prequel | 15:15 |
| strangewarp | Eliezer and I have weirdly similar histories in our personal lives | 15:15 |
| strangewarp | I'm a little bitter about that, since I ended up as a total loser, and he didn't | 15:15 |
| cpopell | how much writing have you done? | 15:15 |
| eudoxia | analytical writing? a shitbuttload of stuff for my lit class and physics papers | 15:16 |
| eudoxia | I think I mostly need to practice text analysis | 15:16 |
| eudoxia | strangewarp: see if you had gone forward with that religion you would've had proper cult-building practice | 15:17 |
| strangewarp | eudoxia: Don't I know it! We both had delusional beliefs in our mid-teenagerhoods; his was that weird quantum thing, whereas mine was also a weird quantum thing but with stupider goals | 15:17 |
| eudoxia | strangewarp: You mean that thing where his epistemology requires MWI to be true? | 15:31 |
| eudoxia | the last issue of the Robot Cultist mag of psychotic delusions and falsehoods hasn't been forwarded to me yet | 15:31 |
| eudoxia | so I'm not entirely up to date | 15:32 |
| strangewarp | Huh... my epistemology requires Big Universe to be true, of which MWI is a potential subset | 15:33 |
| eudoxia | is that some other computational platonism thing | 15:34 |
| strangewarp | But no, I mean something else, some traditional-rationalist proposition about the nature of brains he made in like, 1999 | 15:34 |
| strangewarp | My thing is only computational platonism within the bounds of possible rational topologies, so don't flip your lid | 15:34 |
| eudoxia | dude I totally love computational platonism | 15:35 |
| eudoxia | what is a "possible rational topology" | 15:36 |
| strangewarp | A universe that can exist with internally-consistent physics and is not reliant on random quantum miracles or whatnot | 15:36 |
| eudoxia | I guess you mean a possibility space of physically possible things? | 15:36 |
| eudoxia | close enough | 15:36 |
| strangewarp | Every random quantum miracle to perpetuate non-rational topology reduces the universe's magnitude by a degree comparable to.. gosh.. whatever Boltzmann brains it would sequester by random resimulation, at least | 15:38 |
| strangewarp | (sorry, made that line intentionally funky, I get amused by that sort of thing) | 15:38 |
| @kanzure | that makes you the worst person | 15:38 |
| eudoxia | Oh hello Greg Egan | 15:38 |
| eudoxia | I feel dumb now | 15:38 |
| strangewarp | kanzure: sorry :( | 15:38 |
| strangewarp | kanzure: in my defense, it was valid within the bounds of the point I wanted to make, just radical and filled with jargon | 15:40 |
| @kanzure | yes but it pleased you | 15:40 |
| cpopell | kanzure, how the hell did lesswrong op you | 15:41 |
| strangewarp | I am a pleasure junkie, it is a character flaw that I consciously recognize, I blame certain facets of the experimental early-learning program that acted like a reverse Ludovico technique :p | 15:41 |
| @kanzure | cpopell: because i care | 15:41 |
| cpopell | O_o okay | 15:42 |
| @kanzure | and i think they knew i would hate it | 15:42 |
| strangewarp | hahahahah | 15:42 |
| cpopell | heh. | 15:42 |
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| strangewarp | It was a pretty innovative early-learning program, but its two downsides were: | 15:51 |
| strangewarp | 1) Complete burnout that lasts from age 6 to age 23 | 15:51 |
| strangewarp | 2) Can't see a Muppet without experiencing complete terror | 15:51 |
| @kanzure | https://github.com/blog/1264-introducing-the-command-bar | 15:52 |
| @kanzure | heroku needs that | 15:52 |
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| @kanzure | "so what he was saying is that people get on mobile search results through wordpress, not google" | 16:05 |
| @kanzure | oh clients <3 | 16:05 |
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| cpopell | I wish I had clients :P | 16:14 |
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| skorket | is nmz787 expected to be on later? | 16:31 |
| @kanzure | i dunno for today. i don't think he's traveling at the moment, so maybe. | 16:31 |
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| skorket | hey kanzure, are you a professor at the U. of Austin? | 16:46 |
| @kanzure | no | 16:46 |
| Mokbortolan_1 | he's not cool enough | 16:46 |
| Mokbortolan_1 | not enough hats | 16:46 |
| skorket | Are you employed at the moment? Please let me know if I'm being too nosy | 16:47 |
| @kanzure | skorket: at the moment i make applications and do software for various companies | 16:48 |
| skorket | ah, consultant work? | 16:48 |
| @kanzure | yes | 16:48 |
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| @kanzure | skorket: why do you ask? | 16:54 |
| skorket | just curious | 16:54 |
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| @kanzure | skorket: do i seem like a professor? | 16:55 |
| skorket | um...no. But you're active in the community, have a lot of interests, have a wide knowledge, etc. etc. Seems like it could have been a possibility | 16:55 |
| @kanzure | jmil is the closest to being a professor here (he's trying to find a place that will take him up) | 16:57 |
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| @kanzure | alusion: hi. | 17:33 |
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| -!- Topic for ##hplusroadmap: biohacking, nootropics, transhumanism, open hardware | sponsored by george church and the NRA | http://gnusha.org/logs http://diyhpl.us/wiki http://groups.google.com/group/diybio | friends don't let friends do super college | 18:09 | |
| -!- Topic set by kanzure [~kanzure@131.252.130.248] [Fri Aug 10 08:01:18 2012] | 18:09 | |
| [Users ##hplusroadmap] | 18:09 | |
| [ _sol_ ] [ cpopell ] [ Helleshin ] [ nuba ] [ SDr ] [ Thorbinator] | 18:09 | |
| [ AlonzoTG] [ devrandom ] [ HEx1 ] [ obscurit1 ] [ Shehrazad ] [ upgrayeddd ] | 18:09 | |
| [ alusion ] [ docl ] [ ivan` ] [ OldCoder_ ] [ skorket ] [ Urchin ] | 18:09 | |
| [ archels ] [ drazak_ ] [ jmil ] [ otarU ] [ smeaaagle ] [ Utopiah ] | 18:09 | |
| [ audy ] [ ElixirVitae ] [ jrayhawk ] [ panax ] [ strages_home] [ Vicarious ] | 18:09 | |
| [ augur ] [ epitron ] [ Juul ] [ ParahSailin] [ strangewarp ] [ Wanderer ] | 18:09 | |
| [ bkero ] [ fenn ] [ Lemminkainen_] [ pasky ] [ streety ] [ ybit ] | 18:09 | |
| [ brownies] [ gedankenstuecke] [ lichen ] [ phryk ] [ superkuh ] [ yorick ] | 18:09 | |
| [ chido ] [ gnusha ] [ Mokbortolan_1] [ Proteus ] [ Tasmania ] | 18:09 | |
| [ Coornail] [ Guest76887 ] [ nathaniel ] [ Sanqui ] [ ThomasEgi ] | 18:09 | |
| -!- Irssi: ##hplusroadmap: Total of 58 nicks [0 ops, 0 halfops, 0 voices, 58 normal] | 18:09 | |
| -!- Channel ##hplusroadmap created Thu Feb 25 23:40:30 2010 | 18:09 | |
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| kanzure | hrm. | 18:22 |
| kanzure | jrayhawk: i blame you? | 18:22 |
| alusion | Sup | 18:27 |
| skorket | open source/online EDA suggestions? | 18:27 |
| kanzure | skorket: geda | 18:35 |
| kanzure | non-open source: try upverter or circuitlab | 18:35 |
| skorket | upverter is near unusable | 18:35 |
| kanzure | heh | 18:35 |
| skorket | I really want to like it but I can't even connect a wire | 18:35 |
| kanzure | i hated their search interface | 18:37 |
| skorket | circuitlab...haven't tried that | 18:37 |
| kanzure | i just wanted to select a generic component, and not a 100 ohm resistor | 18:37 |
| kanzure | because chances are they don't have a 1337 ohm resistor or w/e | 18:37 |
| kanzure | circuitlab might be better. not sure. | 18:37 |
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| skorket | yeah, I'm not sure circuit lab is supposed to be anything more than a sandbox for EE 101 | 18:47 |
| skorket | geda over kicad? | 18:48 |
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| kanzure | skorket: hopefully yes :\ | 19:07 |
| skorket | hopefully why? | 19:07 |
| kanzure | well, geda should have improved by now | 19:07 |
| skorket | why do you like it over kicad? | 19:08 |
| kanzure | no particular reason | 19:11 |
| kanzure | i don't use either of them regularly so don't listen to me | 19:11 |
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| skorket | I remember picking geda over kicad before I dove into upverter | 19:14 |
| kanzure | skorket: what else is wrong with upverter? | 19:16 |
| skorket | It's off and on | 19:17 |
| skorket | but they consistently have problems with their editor | 19:17 |
| skorket | I tried to alter the value of the cap? "error" | 19:18 |
| kanzure | hah | 19:18 |
| kanzure | yes that's sorta important | 19:18 |
| skorket | Try to add a zener diode? "number of pins must match up" (it was 2 everywhere) | 19:18 |
| skorket | Try to add a wire from one component to another? consistently mis-aligns | 19:19 |
| skorket | and they're spurious. Sometimes it fails, sometimes it works. Maybe they're in the process of bug fixing, maybe they've introduced a new one, etc. | 19:19 |
| kanzure | they have a json exporter/importer that might be easier to work with | 19:19 |
| kanzure | but, then you have to write in json | 19:19 |
| skorket | They're really friendly, they have a live chat, but I pretty often have this problem | 19:19 |
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| skorket | and now I can't download the exported json file | 19:28 |
| skorket | freakin great | 19:28 |
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| kanzure | oh nice i didn't know their exporter was broken | 20:02 |
| kanzure | it sounds like they suck at testing | 20:02 |
| jmil | kanzure: did you see the article where they printed blood vessels in seconds? | 20:03 |
| jmil | only… they weren't actually vessels. lolz | 20:03 |
| jmil | that's what you call media misdirection | 20:03 |
| kanzure | i didn't read the article because it sounded like bullshit | 20:03 |
| kanzure | plus, you would have informed me months in advance ;) | 20:04 |
| kanzure | you would probably be unable to stop talking about it, too.. | 20:04 |
| jmil | people sent the article to me. the picture is cool but they are solid, not hollow, and not biodegradable. ugh. | 20:05 |
| jmil | at least we made it in the "unlike previous techniques of printing blood vessels" section: | 20:06 |
| jmil | http://motherboard.vice.com/2012/9/17/scientists-can-now-3d-print-blood-vessels-in-seconds | 20:06 |
| kanzure | hah. | 20:06 |
| kanzure | "previous" techniques. heh. | 20:06 |
| jmil | soooo misleading | 20:06 |
| kanzure | you're old news! | 20:06 |
| jmil | hahaha | 20:06 |
| jmil | right | 20:06 |
| kanzure | better get that professorship before they forget about you | 20:06 |
| jmil | i had my 15 min | 20:06 |
| jmil | true dat | 20:06 |
| jmil | in the paper they say it canNOT be used to make structures with overhangs. i.e. vessels | 20:07 |
| jmil | but the PI is a heavyweight and does cool stuff | 20:08 |
| jmil | it's promising technology for sure. but DLP lithography is not new either. | 20:08 |
| jmil | so strange | 20:08 |
| kanzure | huh? it's dlp-based? | 20:08 |
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| jmil | ya its the same as the perfactory from envisiontec kanzure | 20:10 |
| jmil | dynamic light projection | 20:10 |
| jmil | they are just using a projector and an optical reducer. standard stuff | 20:11 |
| kanzure | yes i know what dlp is haha | 20:11 |
| jmil | oh didn't know if you meant the other acronym | 20:11 |
| kanzure | just wasn't expecting it | 20:11 |
| jmil | delinquentme was excited about it. dunno if he figured out the truth yet | 20:13 |
| kanzure | delinquentme gets excited about anything that a news site posts | 20:21 |
| brownies | he must lead a very exciting life. | 20:21 |
| yashgaroth | hey did you guys hear we have warp drives now? good times | 20:23 |
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| kanzure | yashgaroth: you forgot to add "TIL" or some crap like that | 20:26 |
| yashgaroth | le warp drives | 20:26 |
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| kanzure | neat: http://wiki.rootzwiki.com/Category:Devices | 20:51 |
| kanzure | fenn: i saw les today. he was tailing me while i was driving around. i don't think he recognized me because he looked annoyed that this guy in front of him parked near his shop. | 21:13 |
| brownies | kanzure: hey so | 21:18 |
| brownies | kanzure: what happened here? http://gigaom.com/2012/08/19/halcyon-molecular-quietly-shuts-down/ | 21:18 |
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| kanzure | brownies: a few things.. lotta people were trying to grab some of their equipment before it went poof :) | 21:31 |
| kanzure | brownies: the public story is that oxnano "beat them to the punch".. but that's obviously stupid | 21:32 |
| kanzure | i mean, there's no way you would shut down a company with $20M invested in it just because someone announced a product that doesn't even exist | 21:32 |
| brownies | right | 21:32 |
| kanzure | but the story goes that elon musk got really upset about that | 21:32 |
| kanzure | and that halcyon was going to pivot to "dna synthesis" | 21:32 |
| brownies | some of their people were snooping up on me on LinkedIn ... which means that they're still claiming the comapny exists, on LinkedIn | 21:32 |
| brownies | didn't someone else announce DNA synthesis breakthrough today? | 21:33 |
| brownies | Cambrian Something? | 21:33 |
| kanzure | when i interviewed at halcyon (they wanted me to make "super microsoft onenote, except in a web browser, to manage all of our bajillions of exabytes of data that we don't have yet") they told me their backup plan was "sell electron microscopes". | 21:33 |
| yashgaroth | oh boy cambrian genomics made an actual announcement? | 21:33 |
| kanzure | cambrian genomics are the guys that live with fenn | 21:33 |
| brownies | hahah | 21:34 |
| kanzure | no the "announcement" you're thinking of is probably the genome compiler corporation piece that was in the media.. | 21:34 |
| brownies | you guys provide a nice alternative view compared to the hubbub in the media | 21:34 |
| kanzure | it's not a breakthrough, it's a fucking awful gui built on adobe air | 21:34 |
| kanzure | was it the article that started with "Omri Amirav-Drory wants to be the Bill Gates of the DNA world. " ? | 21:35 |
| kanzure | http://singularityhub.com/2012/09/17/new-software-makes-synthesizing-dna-as-easy-as-using-an-ipad/ | 21:35 |
| kanzure | i hate him | 21:36 |
| brownies | kanzure: no, it was this, where they claim to have a "DNA laser printer" https://angel.co/cambrian-genomics | 21:36 |
| kanzure | (he posts to diybio and it's hilarious because he doesn't know how much damage he's doing to his brand when we're all telling him how much his product sucks) | 21:36 |
| kanzure | (open source vs closed source flame wars, the whole nine yards) | 21:36 |
| kanzure | brownies: it's not quite a laser printer.. they are doing microarray batch synthesis and then they do some laser/sequencing magic to increase quality, iirc. | 21:37 |
| kanzure | fenn might have more details. i haven't heard from fenn in a few months so he might be dead. | 21:37 |
| yashgaroth | yeah what the hell happened to fenn | 21:37 |
| brownies | is he still posting meticulous measurements of his life online? | 21:37 |
| kanzure | his irc account has been "away" since early august 2012. | 21:37 |
| brownies | kanzure: oh, so, what's the rest of that story? what happened to Halcyon? | 21:37 |
| kanzure | brownies: dunno, sorry. i can ask around. | 21:38 |
| kanzure | jojack will have lots of juice | 21:38 |
| kanzure | Joseph Jackson <joseph.jackson@gmail.com> ask him about halcyon, tell him you know me, blah blah blah.. | 21:38 |
| yashgaroth | also ask him about the san diego diybio lab since he was spearheading that | 21:39 |
| brownies | haha | 21:39 |
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| kanzure | yashgaroth: i think that's todd chamoy | 21:39 |
| brownies | "i have many prying questions about things, and i know some of the same people as you!" | 21:39 |
| kanzure | brownies: yeah he's cool with that | 21:40 |
| yashgaroth | nah jojack was the one who was heading it up, for some reason...but yeah todd is the local muscle | 21:40 |
| kanzure | he's very friendly and hilarious. | 21:40 |
| yashgaroth | took my quip of "oh sorry I didn't recognize you with a shirt on" quite well | 21:41 |
| kanzure | every few weeks he calls me up at like 3am to rant about how much singularity university and halcyon molecular suck | 21:41 |
| kanzure | hint: they suck a lot | 21:41 |
| kanzure | oh and biocurious | 21:41 |
| brownies | hahah | 21:41 |
| brownies | so basically you hate the whole community | 21:41 |
| kanzure | things are way worse than people let on | 21:41 |
| kanzure | biocurious is run by the mob | 21:41 |
| yashgaroth | so much to hate, so little time | 21:42 |
| kanzure | singularity university is an elaborate credit card scam | 21:42 |
| brownies | it's literally run by the mob? | 21:43 |
| kanzure | brownies: it's not hatred.. it's being "tastefully informed". | 21:43 |
| brownies | that seems suboptimal. | 21:43 |
| brownies | kanzure: heh | 21:43 |
| kanzure | no, but the board was sorta hijacked and lopsided and poorly put together | 21:43 |
| kanzure | and so it has crippling management issues where they can't actually do things | 21:43 |
| kanzure | he picked cofounders poorly (like tito and eri) | 21:44 |
| kanzure | eri somehow became the face for biocurious in the media, and she started to use it to pitch her own startups | 21:44 |
| kanzure | and suddenly she's talking about how she started diybio at osdn/oreilly conferences as the keynote speaker | 21:44 |
| brownies | taking credit for other people's work is a critically important skill | 21:44 |
| kanzure | truth. | 21:45 |
| brownies | arguably, if you have that skill, you've got all other skills covered, too. | 21:45 |
| kanzure | (there are other issues with the board; those are just two that i have a history of ranting about in here.) | 21:45 |
| kanzure | s/osdn/oscon | 21:45 |
| brownies | heh | 21:45 |
| kanzure | oh also he took the transhumanism thing seriously: | 21:45 |
| kanzure | http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kmTNtSs1UQY | 21:45 |
| brownies | kanzure: you mean we're not going to be able to engineer immortality in the next decade? | 21:46 |
| kanzure | i think even if we did, we wouldn't know it within the next decade. | 21:46 |
| yashgaroth | http://www.smbc-comics.com/index.php?db=comics&id=1968 :V | 21:47 |
| kanzure | brownies: cambrian has a lot of interesting people, so they are worth watching | 21:50 |
| kanzure | brownies: like http://anselmlevskaya.com/ http://github.com/levskaya | 21:50 |
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| kanzure | crapload of git repos: http://github.com/cyanogenmod | 22:03 |
| kanzure | about 700? | 22:04 |
| brownies | kanzure: his name seemed very familiar to me when i saw it on Cambrian's team list. still not sure where else i've seen it. | 22:06 |
| kanzure | i've probably mentioned him in here | 22:06 |
| kanzure | hmm v8 runs on android? | 22:07 |
| kanzure | oh i guess that makes sense | 22:07 |
| brownies | haha | 22:10 |
| brownies | yeah, google occasionally does manage to make some of their software work with some of their other software | 22:10 |
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| kanzure | .method private initiateMarketInitialization | 22:25 |
| kanzure | (it's java) | 22:25 |
| kanzure | erm, i mean, it was originally java.. | 22:26 |
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| -!- yashgaroth [~f@cpe-66-27-117-179.san.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving] | 22:35 | |
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| kanzure | isHasHardKeyboard | 22:37 |
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| kanzure | brownies: why is my recruiter emailing me at 1am? | 23:25 |
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| kanzure | heh this guy made a remote shell straight into google's android app scanner | 23:50 |
| kanzure | http://jon.oberheide.org/files/summercon12-bouncer.pdf | 23:50 |
| kanzure | http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZEIED2ZLEbQ | 23:50 |
| kanzure | http://jon.oberheide.org/blog/2012/06/21/dissecting-the-android-bouncer/ | 23:59 |
| --- Log closed Tue Sep 18 00:00:29 2012 | ||
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