| --- Log opened Thu Sep 20 00:00:31 2012 | ||
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| strangewarp | Hmmm | 07:11 |
|---|---|---|
| strangewarp | I ought to pick up some bags of yerba mate; I had a can of Guayaki yerba mate yesterday and it seemed to have an interesting effect on top of the noopept and Cognizin | 07:11 |
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| nsh | lol | 07:36 |
| strangewarp | Oh, what the fuck | 08:29 |
| strangewarp | Another one of my favorite intellectual blogs started slamming transhumanism out of nowhere -_- | 08:30 |
| strangewarp | Only brought it up in terms of Kurzweilian capitalist technocracy, and how said thing is terrible, of course | 08:30 |
| Mariu | strangewarp, they enjoy their comfort zone too much. And "Kurzweilian capitalist technocracy" is not comfortable for their basic perceptions. | 08:34 |
| strangewarp | I am annoyed by how transhumanism's silliness is assumed to go without saying, by otherwise decent and interesting bloggers, argh | 08:34 |
| strangewarp | Mariu, yeah | 08:35 |
| JayDugger | So...going to update your favorites based on your new knowledge about their assumptions? | 08:39 |
| @kanzure | or you can delete your rss aggregator and stop reading blogs | 08:40 |
| strangewarp | JayDugger: nah, the blog has multiple authors, and is occasionally interesting | 08:46 |
| skorket | HaD picked up the MakerBot controversy | 08:46 |
| skorket | TIL, Bre Pattis is from Ithaca | 08:47 |
| strangewarp | kanzure: I used to read many more blogs, and of much lower quality; I think I will eventually mostly stop reading them, but I've tried giving them up entirely and it creates a gaping hole in my routine that is awful | 08:47 |
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| eudoxia | which intellectual blog was that? | 08:59 |
| strangewarp | The New Inquiry | 08:59 |
| strangewarp | Honestly I might have overreacted | 08:59 |
| strangewarp | It was just half a paragraph's worth of fretting about the semiotics of ridiculous techno-optimism | 08:59 |
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| kirka | I find this paper interesting: http://www.pnas.org/content/109/26/E1705.full.pdf | 09:02 |
| @kanzure | kirka: do you know leonid evdokimov? | 09:04 |
| kirka | Nope | 09:04 |
| @kanzure | you are in st. petersburg? | 09:04 |
| kirka | Yes I am | 09:04 |
| @kanzure | you should go find him :) | 09:05 |
| Mariu | :p | 09:05 |
| @kanzure | http://darkk.net.ru/ | 09:05 |
| kirka | What's special about him? | 09:06 |
| @kanzure | he writes very clean C | 09:06 |
| @kanzure | people who write clean C are good friends to keep | 09:06 |
| kirka | Heh | 09:06 |
| kirka | btw | 09:07 |
| kirka | I managed to run NE1, load large models and use Atoms tool | 09:07 |
| kirka | Switched off HW acceleartion and patched >10 source files | 09:08 |
| @kanzure | neat | 09:08 |
| kirka | DNA insertion doesn't work though | 09:08 |
| kirka | Now I can say that I don't like at all how it's written | 09:09 |
| @kanzure | yes, it's not adherrent to many python idioms | 09:09 |
| kirka | There are many elaborate cache strategies, color sorting, hardware model rotation is very complex and errorprone, and DNA and proteins aren't represented as atoms, that adds additional complexity | 09:10 |
| kirka | But I like interface and atom editor | 09:10 |
| @kanzure | i think DNA is represented as atoms clustered together, right? | 09:11 |
| kirka | Hmmh | 09:12 |
| kirka | You are probably right | 09:13 |
| kirka | But aren't there other classes over it? | 09:13 |
| @kanzure | yes | 09:13 |
| kirka | I'm thinking about architecture of atomic/molecular CAD | 09:14 |
| kirka | Without DNA and proteins it becomes mich simpler | 09:14 |
| kirka | When I'll write my own CAD, I won't include that functionality | 09:15 |
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| * kirka loaded Neon Pump | 09:17 | |
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| @kanzure | drama http://marcuswolschon.blogspot.com/2012/09/occupy-thingiverse.html . | 09:25 |
| @kanzure | more drama http://web.archive.org/web/20110707143620/http://www.thingiverse.com/legal | 09:25 |
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| @kanzure | nmz787: hi | 09:28 |
| kirka | nmz787 hi | 09:28 |
| nmz787 | hi | 09:28 |
| nmz787 | ever figure out that git stuff? | 09:28 |
| kirka | I think I have | 09:29 |
| nmz787 | kanzure: have you tried running kirka's code out of a chrott? | 09:29 |
| nmz787 | chroot* | 09:29 |
| kirka | >I managed to run NE1, load large models and use Atoms tool | 09:29 |
| nmz787 | did opengl ever get better? | 09:29 |
| nmz787 | or sstill 5fps? | 09:30 |
| kirka | I switched off HW acceleration in VM and digged source code | 09:30 |
| @kanzure | i haven't tried his changes yet no. | 09:30 |
| kirka | http://rghost.net/40480498.view | 09:30 |
| @kanzure | nmz787: i think the next reasonable thing to do with nanoengineer is to separate the GUI from the backend code. | 09:30 |
| kirka | kanzure I agree | 09:31 |
| @kanzure | the "import" statements should not be so intertwined. | 09:31 |
| @kanzure | most of this stuff doesn't require third-party libraries (except for graphics) | 09:31 |
| kirka | kanzure If I knew the class layout and dependencies, then I probably could cut graphics stuff from codebase and replace it with something | 09:32 |
| @kanzure | i don't think removing it is the right answer | 09:32 |
| kirka | It would be nice to include all numeric (and other) python libraries with NE1 | 09:32 |
| @kanzure | just disabling it or letting it continue with pyqt4 failure | 09:32 |
| @kanzure | no! | 09:32 |
| @kanzure | wtf no. | 09:32 |
| kirka | Heh | 09:32 |
| @kanzure | that's what pypi.python.org is for | 09:32 |
| @kanzure | if you need the packages, there's some here: | 09:33 |
| @kanzure | http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/irc/nanoengineer/dependencies/ | 09:33 |
| kirka | So, when they finally deprecate python.oldnumeric , you'll have to redesign whole source around numpy API | 09:33 |
| kirka | Oh, thank | 09:33 |
| @kanzure | diybio should do a key signing party | 09:39 |
| @kanzure | wait, do i trust these people? | 09:42 |
| kirka | So feds are really after diybio guys? | 09:42 |
| @kanzure | kirka: the feds collaborate with us | 09:42 |
| kirka | Oh | 09:42 |
| @kanzure | every year the FBI holds a meeting and they fly us out (nmz787 was there too) | 09:42 |
| @kanzure | here are the transcripts from the 2012 diybio/fbi meeting: | 09:42 |
| @kanzure | http://diyhpl.us/wiki/transcripts/fbi-diybio-2012/ | 09:43 |
| kirka | kanzure Seems that your and others' focus is biohacking now, not MNT | 09:47 |
| @kanzure | don't put me in a box :( | 09:48 |
| kirka | Heh | 09:48 |
| kirka | Sorry | 09:48 |
| kirka | I don't like being put into the box too | 09:49 |
| nmz787 | MNT == Mutant Ninja Turtles?? | 09:50 |
| kirka | :) | 09:50 |
| nmz787 | I would say that mutating turtles to learn ninja skills is biohacking | 09:51 |
| nmz787 | what do you really mean by MNT? | 09:51 |
| kirka | Molecular NanoTechnology of course | 09:51 |
| nmz787 | o | 09:51 |
| nmz787 | proteins and shit are moleculars | 09:52 |
| kirka | Yes | 09:52 |
| nmz787 | we talk about them a lot | 09:52 |
| kirka | I'm interested in protein structure design and prediction | 09:52 |
| nmz787 | kanzure even has helped me a lot with figuring out a path to DIY DNA synthesis | 09:52 |
| nmz787 | that should be better than what exists on the market today | 09:52 |
| kirka | Cool | 09:53 |
| nmz787 | are you a member of the DIYbio google group?: | 09:53 |
| kirka | Nope | 09:53 |
| kirka | I'll read it, thanks | 09:53 |
| nmz787 | ahh, if you're interested in biohacking stuff you should join | 09:53 |
| nmz787 | i just posted the other day about an idea for protein folding experiments | 09:53 |
| nmz787 | but it seems that the group is less active lately, especially with more experienced folks | 09:54 |
| kirka | The thing is that I'm still studying, so I can become bioinformatics guy in the future | 09:55 |
| kirka | That;s one of many possibilities | 09:55 |
| kirka | CS, ML and numeric methods are applied everywhere | 09:56 |
| nmz787 | do you know any ML? | 10:01 |
| kirka | Yes I do | 10:02 |
| kirka | But I still have a lot to learn | 10:03 |
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| nmz787 | ahh, coolo | 10:11 |
| @kanzure | nmz787: do you happen to be an iptables master? | 10:12 |
| nmz787 | my girlfriend and i are learning artificial neural networks | 10:12 |
| nmz787 | not a master, no... but I can generally get it to do what I want after searching the manual/nets | 10:12 |
| kirka | ANNs have a renaissance now | 10:12 |
| nmz787 | in the past I've also used firestarter as a GUI for iptables | 10:13 |
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| kirka | Software rendering works pretty fast if I give VM 4 of 6 cores | 10:20 |
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| kirka | Ah, a lot of parts coming with NE1 are really well designed | 10:21 |
| kirka | Bevel gears for example | 10:21 |
| kirka | And universal joint, and planetary gears | 10:22 |
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| nmz787 | so fastcompany never posted my comment that i submitted yesterday | 10:31 |
| @kanzure | nah you have to wait longer i think | 10:31 |
| nmz787 | hmm | 10:32 |
| @kanzure | or, if other comments were posted, then that indicates they did can it | 10:32 |
| nmz787 | there are 2 other comments | 10:32 |
| @kanzure | ah :( | 10:32 |
| nmz787 | yeah | 10:32 |
| nmz787 | i guess the normos wont ever hear of our FAQ | 10:32 |
| @kanzure | mac still hasn't updated diybio.org to link to it | 10:32 |
| nmz787 | hah | 10:32 |
| nmz787 | they fixed the spelling errors | 10:32 |
| kirka | Haven't you read about DIY STM? | 10:35 |
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| kirka | I know, it's virtually impossible to acheive good precision | 10:36 |
| @kanzure | nmz787: you should post the comment you made to fastcompany on diybio, since they wont publish it | 10:36 |
| nmz787 | well i reposted the faq/news link | 10:37 |
| @kanzure | it would be fun to do a markov chain bot based on all of the text from all of those articles | 10:38 |
| @kanzure | it would be the most excited, pro-open-source, WMD fearmongering bot ever. | 10:38 |
| delinquentme | spent 20 bucks for laser cut molds :D | 10:38 |
| delinquentme | <<, happy kid | 10:38 |
| delinquentme | anyone wanna dance?? | 10:39 |
| @kanzure | delinquentme is high from co2 fumes from the laser cutter | 10:39 |
| delinquentme | nmz787, also theres a makerfaire this weekend | 10:39 |
| delinquentme | kanzure, they said that was a clean air port! | 10:39 |
| kirka | kanzure I have done it in scheme, and trained it on classical russian literature | 10:39 |
| kirka | kanzure He spoke like mad aristocrat | 10:40 |
| nmz787 | done | 10:41 |
| @kanzure | i want one that speaks like a very mad scientist | 10:41 |
| @kanzure | an ANGRY scientist | 10:41 |
| nmz787 | lol | 10:41 |
| nmz787 | kanzure: i'm in pittsburgh, not NYC this week | 10:42 |
| @kanzure | you meant delinquentme i think | 10:42 |
| delinquentme | yeahh there is a local pgh one :D | 10:42 |
| delinquentme | haha so like there might be a robot there | 10:42 |
| delinquentme | IDK though ... w cmu | 10:42 |
| kirka | http://www.geocities.com/spm_stm/Project_overview.html http://www.geocities.com/spm_stm/Progress.html That's it | 10:45 |
| @kanzure | there are others | 10:45 |
| delinquentme | if (!self.md5.blank? and File.exists?(File.join(DBFile.make_md5_path(self.md5),self.md5)) and !File.join(DBFile.make_md5_path(self.md5),self.md5).match(/[^A-Za-z0-9\/]/)) or (File.exists?(self.file_path) and ACCESSIBLE_FOLDERS.select { |af| self.file_path.index(af) == 0 }.length > 0 ) | 10:46 |
| delinquentme | kirka, what is this im looking at? | 10:46 |
| nmz787 | nah i meant kanzure, because you mentioned makerfaire | 10:47 |
| nmz787 | kirka: that's your STM? | 10:47 |
| nmz787 | unless all makerfaires happen this weekend | 10:48 |
| nmz787 | oO | 10:48 |
| nmz787 | it is in pitts thi weekend | 10:48 |
| kirka | No, of course | 10:48 |
| kirka | I just read that article and find it interesting | 10:49 |
| @kanzure | delinquentme: looks like ruby to me | 10:49 |
| kirka | 100 nM resolution | 10:49 |
| brownies | yup. definitely rubies. | 10:49 |
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| delinquentme | kanzure, yeah | 10:50 |
| kirka | I haven't seen any finidhed STM project on the net though | 10:50 |
| kirka | *finished | 10:50 |
| delinquentme | guy makes his own attachment plugin... names it paperclip | 10:50 |
| @kanzure | kirka: http://www.makezine.com/blog/archive/2006/07/how_to_build_a_simple_scanning.html | 10:51 |
| nmz787 | delinquentme: wanna meet at makerfaire? | 10:51 |
| @kanzure | http://www.bsc.ustc.edu.cn/~jlyang/research/STMWebPage.html | 10:51 |
| @kanzure | http://www.bsc.ustc.edu.cn/~jlyang/research/STMWebPage.html | 10:51 |
| @kanzure | http://www.lugoj.com/NanotechSTMArticles/HomeBrewSTMs.html | 10:51 |
| @kanzure | http://www.e-basteln.de/index_o.htm | 10:51 |
| delinquentme | nmz787, im seeing about weekend accomodations in the burgh | 10:51 |
| @kanzure | http://stm2.nrl.navy.mil/how-afm/how-afm.html | 10:51 |
| delinquentme | also i might bring some electronics | 10:51 |
| delinquentme | :D | 10:51 |
| @kanzure | http://www.chem.pacificu.edu/Johnson/JohnsonResearch/STM/PIEZO.HTM | 10:52 |
| delinquentme | the guts of the shaker ... as I've got a encoder to wire up and figure out how i'd like to run frequency and start / stop | 10:52 |
| nmz787 | ahh, hmm, I wish I could offer a place to crash but there just isn't space here | 10:52 |
| @kanzure | kirka: the makezine one is probably most usefl. | 10:52 |
| @kanzure | *useful | 10:52 |
| delinquentme | nmz787, do you know nick?? | 10:52 |
| nmz787 | nick? | 10:52 |
| nmz787 | brewer? | 10:52 |
| delinquentme | pinkston yeah | 10:52 |
| delinquentme | kanzure, kinda knows him | 10:52 |
| @kanzure | pinkston is in sf | 10:52 |
| kirka | kanzure Thanks but makezine is dead, I have read e-basteln and http://www.lugoj.com/NanotechSTMArticles/HomeBrewSTMs.html looks useful | 10:52 |
| @kanzure | makezine is dead? wtf wtf | 10:53 |
| nmz787 | i dont know anyone named pinkston | 10:53 |
| delinquentme | but hell be there as well as some dude who worked on the lasersaurs in pgh | 10:53 |
| nmz787 | i thihnk | 10:53 |
| @kanzure | pinkston did cloudfab.com and sold it | 10:53 |
| kirka | Using piezo buzzer as actuator is very creative | 10:53 |
| delinquentme | kanzure, hes here for the part this weekend :D | 10:53 |
| delinquentme | Y U NO HERE HOMESLICE?! | 10:53 |
| delinquentme | pgh = clearly the coolest place on earth | 10:53 |
| delinquentme | for 3.5 days | 10:53 |
| delinquentme | haha | 10:53 |
| @kanzure | kirka: ok how about this one.. http://blog.makezine.com/2006/07/30/how-to-build-a-simple-sca/ | 10:53 |
| kirka | Thanks | 10:53 |
| @kanzure | oh it just links to geocities | 10:53 |
| @kanzure | how sad | 10:53 |
| kirka | Ah yes | 10:54 |
| kirka | The most complex part is actuator and tip | 10:54 |
| @kanzure | delinquentme: he's doing some non-profit thing for open source hardware/manufacturing. you should say hi to him. | 10:54 |
| kirka | I have experience in electronics/programming | 10:54 |
| kirka | If I were going to do it, I would build tunneling current measuring unit first | 10:55 |
| @kanzure | kirka: i think the parts are <$2000 | 10:56 |
| kirka | And I expect that it's quite complex to distinguish tunnel current from dirst current or short circuit | 10:56 |
| @kanzure | make a bill of materials with the necessary parts, and i can purchase them, if you agree to make it an open source project | 10:56 |
| kirka | Heh | 10:56 |
| kirka | I agree, but I have to learn a lot before I would start this projects with confidence | 10:57 |
| kirka | I'm not in a hurry though | 10:57 |
| delinquentme | kanzure, pinkston is? | 10:57 |
| delinquentme | he told me about the mfg .. but I didn't know it was OS | 10:58 |
| kirka | kanzure I will begin collecting information about STM designs. I will upload it as I'll have progress | 11:00 |
| @kanzure | kirka: please consider adding the information to diyhpluswiki.git | 11:01 |
| kirka | Index http://www.e-basteln.de/index_r.htm | 11:01 |
| kirka | Yes | 11:01 |
| @kanzure | http://diyhpl.us/wiki | 11:01 |
| @kanzure | it's a git-based wiki, so you can edit on the web or with your normal text editors | 11:01 |
| @kanzure | and STM stuff should be on there :) | 11:01 |
| kirka | Ok | 11:01 |
| @kanzure | hmm it looks like pieter van boheeemen is in the news again | 11:04 |
| @kanzure | http://venturebeat.com/2012/09/20/dutch-bio-hackers-mobilize-malaria-testing/ | 11:04 |
| @kanzure | "Lava Amp makes a $300 machine to run PCR but not to diagnose a particular disease." | 11:04 |
| @kanzure | what? jojack hasn't released lava amp.. you can't buy one | 11:05 |
| @kanzure | hah i never knew they had content on their site | 11:05 |
| @kanzure | http://www.lava-amp.com/ | 11:05 |
| @kanzure | "Amplino was founded in 2012, is based in Leiden in the Netherlands, has three employees, and is privately funded." | 11:05 |
| @kanzure | ok is that really DIY? | 11:05 |
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| gnusha | diyhpluswiki.git: dfd65d1 an article about amplino/pieter | 11:11 |
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| kirka | kanzure It would be very cool if someone have shown working STM with piezo disk actuator | 11:20 |
| kirka | kanzure piezo disks are dirt cheap | 11:20 |
| kirka | There should be some pitfall, as Idon't see any finished STMs with that approach | 11:21 |
| nmz787 | i think they are expensive if you dont make them yourselves (the tip) | 11:22 |
| nmz787 | and they are hard to make if i recall correctly | 11:22 |
| kirka | Actuator and precise mechanics are the most costly parts | 11:22 |
| kirka | Yes they are | 11:22 |
| nmz787 | there's gotta be some law of physics we're not exploiting to see small stuff cheaply | 11:23 |
| kirka | STM seems most cheap technique | 11:23 |
| nmz787 | DNA origami tips? | 11:23 |
| kirka | I thought about that. They probably will not fold in free air or vacuum. IBM guys use CO-termintaed tips: http://www.zurich.ibm.com/news/12/ncAFM.html | 11:24 |
| nmz787 | kanzure: i always thought the consensus on DIYbio was that you'd get the pants sued off you for making a qPCR machine | 11:24 |
| nmz787 | well that's cutting edge | 11:25 |
| kirka | I made a local mirror of gecities STM site. Important information. | 11:26 |
| nmz787 | kanzure: what is it called when you have two options for an answer but only 1 is appropriate | 11:28 |
| nmz787 | like when you take the square root of something | 11:28 |
| nmz787 | there is always the negative answer | 11:29 |
| kirka | That guy uses completely analog electronics with integrators and so on. It would be much easier to put there some high resolution DACs and microcontroller, and connect it to PC with UART. | 11:37 |
| kirka | That's his design http://www.geocities.com/spm_stm/Electronics_discription.html | 11:38 |
| kirka | Of course OPAMPs would be still nedded, but there wouldn't be analog control loop | 11:39 |
| kirka | *neede | 11:39 |
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| nmz787 | what part are you talking about | 11:43 |
| nmz787 | i mean what does the integrator do? | 11:44 |
| nmz787 | analog is usually more responsive though | 11:44 |
| nmz787 | right? | 11:44 |
| kirka | Yes you are right | 11:44 |
| kirka | I'll find about integrator, wait | 11:45 |
| nmz787 | so you'd probably lose resolution in some axis if you went digital | 11:45 |
| nmz787 | or had to scan more slowly | 11:45 |
| kirka | No | 11:45 |
| kirka | Yes speed would be lower | 11:45 |
| nmz787 | and add some statistical noise reduction later (DSP) | 11:45 |
| kirka | But on 10 mhz AVR controller I could easily do 100khz control loop | 11:45 |
| kirka | *20 mhz | 11:46 |
| nmz787 | yeah but comparing to analog *infitine hertz* | 11:46 |
| nmz787 | you could use an FPGA and get pretty high | 11:46 |
| kirka | No, opamps have pretty finite bandwidth | 11:46 |
| nmz787 | or some of the OMAP processors would work well | 11:46 |
| kirka | cheap ones at 1-5 Mhz | 11:46 |
| nmz787 | o, OMAPs are generally dual core 1 ARM 1 TI DSP at like almost GHz | 11:47 |
| kirka | They are complex to use and not well suited for real time tasks | 11:47 |
| kirka | MCU fits ideally here | 11:47 |
| nmz787 | whats the diff between opamp and darlington? | 11:47 |
| kirka | darlington is just a pair of very similar complementary bipolar transistors | 11:48 |
| kirka | Oh | 11:48 |
| kirka | I made an error | 11:48 |
| kirka | That's two BJTs connected so that they work like one with more gain | 11:49 |
| kirka | I find it very cool: http://www.geocities.com/spm_stm/Disk_Scanner_Exp.html | 11:50 |
| kirka | Integrator is used for coarse control of tip's Z coordinate | 11:53 |
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| kirka | Input OPAMP has 3 Mhz bandwidth | 11:55 |
| nmz787 | what does this mean "Remember the stainless steel disk is the Z electrode." | 11:57 |
| nmz787 | http://www.geocities.com/spm_stm/disk_scanner.html | 11:57 |
| nmz787 | hmm | 11:57 |
| kirka | It's common to all 4 electrodes | 11:57 |
| kirka | It's natural to use it for global Z compensation | 11:58 |
| nmz787 | parallax propeller is 8 core at 96MHz for $8 | 11:58 |
| nmz787 | very easy to use | 11:58 |
| kirka | Yes, but I think attiny2313@20 Mhz will be enough. Or atmega. | 11:58 |
| nmz787 | i thought stainless steel bottom is ground | 11:58 |
| kirka | It's not imperative | 11:59 |
| nmz787 | hmm? | 11:59 |
| kirka | He is obviously experienced guy | 11:59 |
| * kirka reads datasheets for suggested opamps | 12:00 | |
| kirka | I think first step should be building pico-ampermeter and trying to measure tunneling current profile | 12:03 |
| nmz787 | it doesnt mention tips | 12:03 |
| kirka | http://www.geocities.com/spm_stm/STM_Tips.htm | 12:04 |
| kirka | That's it | 12:04 |
| nsh | GEOCITIES YAAAA | 12:04 |
| nsh | what you guys designing btw | 12:05 |
| nsh | ? | 12:05 |
| nsh | oh god the colours | 12:05 |
| kirka | WE are reading about DIY STM | 12:05 |
| kirka | *We | 12:05 |
| nsh | what's the choke point? | 12:05 |
| nsh | that is, most difficult part to achieve DIYily? | 12:05 |
| nmz787 | so you clip a groundwire onto the sample? | 12:06 |
| nsh | s/choke point/stumbling block/ | 12:06 |
| * nsh lrns2english | 12:06 | |
| kirka | Eeeh, nanometer precision at actuator, I suppose | 12:06 |
| nmz787 | seems like voltage control on the XY and Z | 12:06 |
| kirka | nmz767 Nope, there is Sample bias voltage OPAMP | 12:06 |
| nmz787 | so there is a single wire going to the tip | 12:07 |
| kirka | Yes | 12:07 |
| nmz787 | how do you get a signal from that? | 12:07 |
| kirka | Tip's current generated voltage on input resistor | 12:08 |
| kirka | U=I*R | 12:08 |
| nsh | i would have thought that vibration control would be pretty hard in a garage context | 12:08 |
| nsh | unless you have a supercooling system to hand | 12:08 |
| kirka | That very little voltage is pre amplified with LF411 opamp | 12:08 |
| nmz787 | from wiki "STM can be a challenging technique, as it requires extremely clean and stable surfaces, sharp tips, excellent vibration control, and sophisticated electronics, but nonetheless many hobbyists have built their own" | 12:09 |
| kirka | nsh He does it with foam and concrete blocks: http://www.geocities.com/spm_stm/STM_operation.html | 12:09 |
| kirka | Yes it is | 12:09 |
| kirka | Heh | 12:09 |
| nsh | kirka, apparently a mostly-deflated bike innertube can be very effective | 12:10 |
| nmz787 | "The STM is based on the concept of quantum tunneling. When a conducting tip is brought very near to the surface to be examined, a bias (voltage difference) applied between the two can allow electrons to tunnel through the vacuum between them. " | 12:10 |
| kirka | nsh Thanks, I'll write that down | 12:10 |
| nmz787 | seems like the sample must be in the circuit | 12:10 |
| nsh | but that's in the context of record players in very noisy bass heavy club environs | 12:10 |
| nsh | so it might not translate | 12:10 |
| nsh | but the principle is the same | 12:10 |
| kirka | nmz787 Of course it should | 12:10 |
| nmz787 | nsh: i think you do need vibration dampening, but that is routine in optics already | 12:10 |
| nmz787 | nsh: its generally a granite slab sitting on air shocks | 12:11 |
| * nsh nods | 12:11 | |
| nsh | all the the Q | 12:11 |
| nsh | *all about the | 12:11 |
| nmz787 | in a granite science bunker deep in old mountains | 12:11 |
| kirka | I'm not in a hurry anyway. Only way I would do such thing and have any chance of success is conducting major research in beaforehand | 12:11 |
| kirka | also reading about commercial STM construction | 12:12 |
| nmz787 | deflated bike tube eh | 12:12 |
| nmz787 | hmm | 12:12 |
| @kanzure | wtf why is there no cyanogenmod build for android emulator? | 12:13 |
| nmz787 | kirka: seems like you could replace his Z allen key screw with a motor | 12:13 |
| nmz787 | http://www.geocities.com/spm_stm/STM_operation.html | 12:13 |
| kirka | nmz787 Yes, but it has to be very precise motor | 12:14 |
| nmz787 | sure | 12:14 |
| nmz787 | squiggle would probably work | 12:15 |
| nmz787 | dunno what they cost though | 12:15 |
| nmz787 | http://www.newscaletech.com/squiggle_overview.html | 12:15 |
| kirka | Thanks | 12:15 |
| kirka | Actually in CD laser heads they use solenoids for precise movements. But EM fields could interfere with STM tip | 12:15 |
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| kirka | I could take his tested schematics and connect it to three DACs and one ADC. | 12:18 |
| kirka | 10 khz control loop will be enough | 12:18 |
| kirka | *and of course, MCU | 12:18 |
| kirka | But I have an oscilloscope | 12:19 |
| nmz787 | ok | 12:22 |
| kirka | Cool, he is a pro: http://www.geocities.com/spm_stm/My_SPM_exp.htm | 12:23 |
| nmz787 | what is SPM? | 12:23 |
| kirka | Scanning Probe Microscopy | 12:23 |
| kirka | http://www.geocities.com/spm_stm/Publications_List.htm | 12:24 |
| kirka | Actually I've read about one guy who wanted to replicate this project: http://www.chemhacker.com/topics/stm/ | 12:25 |
| kirka | His project seems abandoned though | 12:25 |
| kirka | Ah, so he was going to sell it | 12:27 |
| kirka | He is just lightheaded about it | 12:29 |
| nmz787 | oh ChemHacker is Sacha of Pumping Station: One | 12:32 |
| kirka | >To simplify design I implemented all the host interface glue logic in one MACH210 chip. This DSP is used to run three servo loops that control the micro positioning of the scanning probe. This board acquires the image information in real time, buffers it and down loads it to the host computer. Data acquisition board, this board has four 16 bit ADCs and six 16 bit DACs with a 170KHz maximum sample rate. | 12:33 |
| kirka | That's just what I was talking about | 12:33 |
| kirka | Seems that 16 bits is enough | 12:34 |
| kirka | Oh maybe it's just coarse positioning | 12:34 |
| nmz787 | * * 10 bits gives ~17.59 mV/step which is ~2.81 nm /step (at ~0.16 um/volt) that’s so large that the needle will pass into and out of tunneling in only one step. | 12:37 |
| nmz787 | * * 16 bits gives ~0.2747 mV/step which is ~43.9 pm/step, small enough that you can control tunneling with more than one step. | 12:37 |
| nmz787 | http://www.chemhacker.com/topics/stm/#post-510 | 12:38 |
| kirka | Thanks | 12:39 |
| nmz787 | you could email him "Sacha De'Angeli" <sachadeangeli@gmail.com>, | 12:39 |
| kirka | That's basic math, I shall rederive it | 12:39 |
| kirka | Thanks, I have saved to my STM.txt file | 12:40 |
| nmz787 | ok ttyl | 12:43 |
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| kirka | bye | 12:45 |
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| kirka | So with 1600 nm range 16 bit DAC gives me 1600/(2^16) = 0.024 nm = 24pm per step | 12:47 |
| kirka | Not bad at all | 12:47 |
| kirka | this can be acheived at 10 volts for that piezo disk | 12:47 |
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| @kanzure | "Stripe is pretty new, they are similar to PayPal." | 13:10 |
| @kanzure | man these guys are dumb :/ | 13:10 |
| @kanzure | "BTW authorize.net pays you in a 2-3 days. We use it all the time for our services and our clients." | 13:10 |
| @kanzure | (way to ignore the thing i actually said) | 13:10 |
| kirka | Where is our cryptoanarchy@bitcoin? :) | 13:11 |
| @kanzure | all the cryptoanarchists killed themselves http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Len_Sassaman | 13:12 |
| brownies | kanzure: are you still trying to reason with those web developers? | 13:14 |
| brownies | "web" "developers" | 13:14 |
| kirka | Heh, Stephenson predicted goverment bankruptcy because of lack of tax income | 13:15 |
| kirka | But we are far from it | 13:15 |
| @kanzure | http://garyhodgson.com/reprap/2012/09/githubiverse-a-github-pages-template-for-3d-printing-projects/ | 13:15 |
| @kanzure | brownies: yes | 13:15 |
| @kanzure | "It sounded like a fun little diversion so I threw together something called githubiverse. It currently consists of a Github Pages template: drop this into the gh-pages branch of any github project, add a little configuration, and your github pages will display the source files, STLs and any images, along with some other information. " | 13:16 |
| @kanzure | http://reprap.development-tracker.info/ | 13:16 |
| brownies | github's inability to display images while i'm browsing the repo is really infuriating, actually | 13:20 |
| @kanzure | i thought they said they are doing image rendering now? | 13:21 |
| @kanzure | oh wait that's only for basic image diffs | 13:21 |
| @kanzure | i think they want to avoid being a CDN | 13:21 |
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| alusion | Do any of ya'll have a recommended vendor for chloline citrate? | 13:22 |
| alusion | Btw if any of ya'll are on a nootropic diet, how has your memory retention been affected since? | 13:25 |
| brownies | hm, i should test such things. how do you measure/benchmark that alusion ? | 13:27 |
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| alusion | I would imagine some sort of memory recall games / cards periodically? That or perhaps recalling information from reading some sort of book. There's plenty of methods but imo I think Flash cards would work best | 13:31 |
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| brownies | i guess i should just find some web-based dual-n-back app and use that | 13:36 |
| alusion | I'm sure the android market has an app for that. | 13:39 |
| kirka | These guys replicated Jogn's STM design. They say that it works but they don't have pictures yet http://www.ilovephysics.com/2007/10/15/building-a-scanning-tunneling-microscope-for-less-than-100/ | 13:39 |
| kirka | >however, Donnie left for Old Dominion University via our 3/2 engineering program and I haven’t yet recruited a student to pick up the pieces | 13:40 |
| kirka | Sad | 13:40 |
| kirka | But it looks like it chould work | 13:41 |
| kirka | Another project, with atomic res: http://sxm4.uni-muenster.de/introduction-en.html | 13:45 |
| kirka | Note vibration decoupling system just like nsh said | 13:45 |
| kirka | But they use precision components, of course | 13:46 |
| nsh | :) | 13:46 |
| nsh | precision is not strictly correlated with cost | 13:47 |
| kirka | kanzure That's what you asked, OSS STM | 13:49 |
| kirka | kanzure almost all components are free | 13:49 |
| kirka | oops >We retain the exclusive right to sell construction-kits or fully assembled devices based on our design. | 13:49 |
| Urchin | my uni has an STM project, but it's languishing on a shelf somewhere | 13:50 |
| kirka | Urchin Strange that people aren't interested by such things | 13:50 |
| kirka | *in | 13:50 |
| Urchin | well, I am apparently one of the few, and when I was due to start working on it, I had medical problems and was absent for couple of months | 13:51 |
| Urchin | I might ask to get back | 13:52 |
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| Urchin | solid state physics is not well loved | 13:56 |
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| kirka | I'm going to sleep | 14:15 |
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| @kanzure | spam spam spam http://nanoengineer-1.com/dev1/index.php?Itemid=85option=com_fireboardfunc=showcatGo=Gocatid=10 | 15:43 |
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| @kanzure | beeep | 18:36 |
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| nsh | hey kanzure | 18:40 |
| nsh | what's up? | 18:40 |
| @kanzure | jmil_: i feel so bad. my grandmother emailed me an article about tissue printing, but it was the sucky article and not yours. | 18:41 |
| @kanzure | oh well | 18:41 |
| nsh | heh | 18:41 |
| nsh | pretty cool that your grandmother emails you articles about biotechnology though | 18:41 |
| nsh | that's more impressive than my grandparents | 18:41 |
| nsh | although they have the slight impairment of death | 18:42 |
| nsh | but even before, handling a phone was about the level of technological literacy | 18:42 |
| nsh | or scientific | 18:42 |
| @kanzure | yeah she also sends me these awful articles about singularityu | 18:42 |
| @kanzure | "WHY AREN'T YOU GOING, BRYAN?" | 18:43 |
| nsh | lol | 18:43 |
| @kanzure | "because they are a bunch of fucking posers, maybe?" | 18:43 |
| @kanzure | no phones are still beyond her | 18:43 |
| nsh | sounds sufficient | 18:43 |
| @kanzure | she's the "has a mobile phone, but keeps it turned off" type | 18:44 |
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| skorket | evening all | 19:25 |
| strangewarp | heh | 19:26 |
| strangewarp | My mother reads DailyKos a lot, and I guess they had an article on there that said transhumanists are elitists who want to pollute the environment and live atop a pyramid of suffering, because I had to roll back some weird opinions she'd gleaned from it | 19:27 |
| docl | so, dale carrico in other words? | 19:28 |
| strangewarp | probably | 19:29 |
| @kanzure | see, this is why people should stop reading the news | 19:32 |
| strangewarp | I think politics are a mind-destroying weapon | 19:39 |
| joshcryer | I think it's a mixed bag with regards to transhumanists and the environment. | 19:39 |
| joshcryer | But "pyramid of suffering" is a joke. | 19:40 |
| Urchin | getting off this dump of a planet is not a bad idea | 19:40 |
| joshcryer | Converting the planet into a mass driver to go to the core isn't a bad idea. ;) | 19:41 |
| joshcryer | s/core/core of the galaxy | 19:41 |
| @kanzure | occupythemoon | 19:41 |
| * joshcryer thumbsup | 19:41 | |
| Urchin | O'Neil stations would be my preference | 19:42 |
| joshcryer | So Clang takes far too long to compile. | 19:42 |
| joshcryer | It's been two hours. :O | 19:42 |
| joshcryer | Urchin, I'm thinking hiveminds, bodies are too quaint. | 19:43 |
| Urchin | frak hive minds, just upload yourself | 19:44 |
| joshcryer | Go to Reddit, look at the comments. If you're simulating that it's more efficient if the mind which have similar views are one in the same. You wouldn't notice a difference. | 19:46 |
| * nsh tries to parse joshcryer's last | 19:48 | |
| * yashgaroth too | 19:48 | |
| * Urchin failed to parse it | 19:49 | |
| joshcryer | Most Reddit comments are copy-paste-jobs of someone elses thought. Say you're simulating some minds, if you got redundant thoughts, why compute them uniquely? Basically, "Hey, great minds think alike." Yeah, literally. | 19:52 |
| joshcryer | Sorry I am incoherent. :P | 19:52 |
| strangewarp | Reddit bothers me, because even though its comments converge on common themes, those themes often seem like they aren't objectively the most productive or insightful | 19:58 |
| nsh | lol | 19:59 |
| strangewarp | This is also why democracy so often kind of sucks, I think | 19:59 |
| nsh | people several standard deviations from the mean intelligence disappointed in bulk of distribution. film at eleven | 19:59 |
| @kanzure | nsh: or you're average | 20:00 |
| @kanzure | and just grumpy. | 20:00 |
| * nsh smiles | 20:02 | |
| nsh | that too | 20:02 |
| nsh | but joshcryer, more speculatively, i wouldn't be surprised if there isn't a some kind of compression of thoughtspace at whatever level you want to call reality | 20:03 |
| nsh | in terms of 'collective unconscious' | 20:03 |
| nsh | (which is vague enough to be mostly useless, yes) | 20:03 |
| strangewarp | meh, even if there isn't, there are only a finite number of possible thoughts anyway | 20:04 |
| nsh | if you make some inprovable assumptions about that fundaments of mathematics | 20:21 |
| nsh | i guess. | 20:21 |
| nsh | *the | 20:22 |
| strangewarp | nah | 20:23 |
| @kanzure | bre is very good at doublespeak | 20:24 |
| @kanzure | http://www.makerbot.com/blog/2012/09/20/fixing-misinformation-with-information/ | 20:24 |
| @kanzure | i guess not good enough though | 20:24 |
| strangewarp | nsh: there is a finite but unknown upper bound on the number of possible universes with rational topology; these contain all possible thoughts; thus the number of possible thoughts has an equal or lesser upper bound | 20:25 |
| nsh | strages_home, that sure is a pretty collection of words :) | 20:26 |
| strangewarp | ugh | 20:26 |
| @kanzure | it would be a shame if one of those words was to get hurt | 20:31 |
| * kanzure takes a hostage | 20:32 | |
| nsh | lol | 20:32 |
| * strangewarp grins... | 20:32 | |
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| nsh | strangewarp, sorry for being glib. brain was too distracted to formulate reply. | 20:40 |
| strangewarp | eh, that's okay, I'm on my way to bed so my arguments are weak anyway | 20:40 |
| nsh | my point was that you can't rule out infinitude without making some strong assumptions | 20:40 |
| nsh | pretty 'early' in your physical theorising | 20:40 |
| nsh | and topology itself is predicated on infinite sets | 20:41 |
| strangewarp | Well, I'm assuming Big Universe here - and technically, under any form of Big Universe, you could say an infinite number of possible universes exist, even those with irraional topology, but their magnitude would be exponentially rarer for every topology-sustaining quantum miracle they require, natch | 20:42 |
| nsh | it's an open question whether mathematical infinity is physically realised or just a very effective simplification | 20:42 |
| strangewarp | irrational* | 20:42 |
| nsh | i don't even know why you're talking about more than one universe | 20:43 |
| nsh | i don't even know what that means... | 20:44 |
| strangewarp | Joke answer: "to be thorough" | 20:44 |
| nsh | veering into theology imho | 20:44 |
| nsh | but restricting ourselves to the incredibly myopic view of one totality of existence | 20:45 |
| nsh | for a moment | 20:45 |
| strangewarp | If cognitive materialism is true, then not theology, else theology | 20:45 |
| nsh | there's still room for physical infinity | 20:45 |
| nsh | potentially | 20:45 |
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| nsh | what's cognitive materialism? | 20:45 |
| strangewarp | The person is just the matter that makes up the mind, and if you duplicate the matter, you've meaningfully duplicated the person | 20:46 |
| nsh | you can form some argument based on the maximum information density and minimum energy required to manipulate a qubit | 20:46 |
| nsh | and if you have a four sided triangle you can play lemonade on the violin | 20:47 |
| nsh | you can't duplicate information | 20:47 |
| nsh | no-cloning theorem | 20:47 |
| * strangewarp rubs temples | 20:47 | |
| strangewarp | So you are calling this "information" thing a qualia, then | 20:48 |
| nsh | not unless i didn't wipe my shoes thoroughly enough on the way in | 20:49 |
| @kanzure | i saw a panasonic laptop once with a keyboard that looked like the original lenovo thinkpads. anyone know what it is? | 20:49 |
| @kanzure | you know, since lenovo has grown evil | 20:49 |
| nsh | how long ago was once kanzure? | 20:49 |
| @kanzure | less than a decade? | 20:49 |
| @kanzure | i am bad at time | 20:49 |
| nsh | did it look like this: http://www.pcmag.com/article2/0,2817,2393939,00.asp | 20:50 |
| roksprok | kanzure: any idea how makerbot can have 150 employees? Is that normal for hardware? | 20:50 |
| roksprok | also i thought panasonic only made rugged laptops | 20:50 |
| @kanzure | roksprok: support peeps, a handful of web peeps, software/firmware peeps, some people to tinker with hardware | 20:51 |
| nsh | strangewarp, gonna have to duck out of philosophy. interesting though | 20:51 |
| @kanzure | some people to do sourcing, accounting, hr, probably some people doing assembly/packaging/testing | 20:51 |
| @kanzure | and probably some people doing shipping | 20:51 |
| @kanzure | they might mean 150 except.. 100 of them are some $1/hour chinese folks putting stuff into boxes | 20:52 |
| roksprok | it would have to be, cuz that's 10 catagories, are there really 15 people doing each of those? | 20:52 |
| roksprok | i wonder what their breakeven number of printers to sell is, or if they're hoping people will buy a shitton of plastic | 20:53 |
| @kanzure | you should also look at the number of makerbots they have sold | 20:53 |
| @kanzure | they have that on a wiki page somewhere | 20:53 |
| @kanzure | a friend of mine got #7 | 20:53 |
| @kanzure | but they are up to #4000something | 20:53 |
| roksprok | that's....more than i expected. i suppose that means its not just hobbyists? if so thats cool, i discounted them wrongfully | 20:55 |
| @kanzure | huh? i'm sure there's at least 4000 hobbyists that can afford makerbots | 20:57 |
| roksprok | ooooo...i thought #7 was 7 units | 20:58 |
| roksprok | i fail | 20:58 |
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| @kanzure | "BGI-Shenzhen Acquires Complete Genomics" | 21:46 |
| yashgaroth | yep | 21:47 |
| @kanzure | ". Following the acquisition, which will cost BGI a grand total of $117.6 million, Complete Genomics will keep operations in Mountain View and continue to operate as an independent company." | 21:47 |
| @kanzure | hrm $120M for a sequencing company? | 21:48 |
| @kanzure | i mean, there's a lot of these companies these days | 21:48 |
| @kanzure | all of them are venture backed; it's at least $5B of VC money. | 21:48 |
| yashgaroth | B with a b? | 21:48 |
| yashgaroth | you mean all sequencing companies combined? | 21:49 |
| @kanzure | yeah | 21:49 |
| @kanzure | i mean, if BGI needs more capacity, they could just buy some cheaper sequencing company | 21:49 |
| @kanzure | like knome | 21:50 |
| yashgaroth | maybe china was unable to steal their data and just bought them instead | 21:50 |
| @kanzure | although, knome probably outsources their sequencing to BGI anyway | 21:50 |
| brownies | well how much did complete genomics raise? | 22:00 |
| @kanzure | i guess we can assume their investors were holding out for 10x returns, so probably $10-$20M? | 22:00 |
| @kanzure | google says they raised $45M in series D | 22:01 |
| @kanzure | and $74M in an IPO | 22:01 |
| brownies | eh? were they public? | 22:01 |
| @kanzure | ah $91M in VC funding total | 22:01 |
| brownies | yeah, GNOM on the NASDAQ. wild. | 22:02 |
| @kanzure | damn i wish i was cool enough to get a stock symbol like GNOM | 22:02 |
| brownies | all the cool ones are taken. | 22:03 |
| nsh | "you can still get one from an obscure country" | 22:18 |
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| brownies | heh | 22:22 |
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| @kanzure | jrayhawk: what's a good reference that refutes calories-in/calories-out? preferably some paper | 22:50 |
| nsh | what? | 22:56 |
| nsh | you can't refute thermodynamics | 22:57 |
| nsh | i'm sure there are papers on differential metabolic response to dietary variation and things like altered satiation/starvation measures | 22:58 |
| nsh | but calories in still equals calories out | 22:58 |
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| @kanzure | nsh: /win 5 | 23:21 |
| @kanzure | jkdslfcjlasedj | 23:21 |
| brownies | stop trying to break thermodynamics kanzure | 23:31 |
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| nmz787 | so how can i screw with a scammer? | 23:51 |
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| @kanzure | to screw with a scammer you must become the scammer | 23:54 |
| nmz787 | hmm | 23:55 |
| nmz787 | how can i get them to send me money then? | 23:55 |
| nmz787 | i know at least one, maybe 2 phone numbers, and an email | 23:55 |
| nmz787 | and they called me once asking for a deposit on a house | 23:55 |
| @kanzure | first you study the masters who have come before you | 23:55 |
| nmz787 | from some foreign number | 23:55 |
| @kanzure | check out that one guy who had the nigerian scammer make him a bust and mail it | 23:55 |
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| --- Log closed Fri Sep 21 00:00:32 2012 | ||
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