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| pasky | http://www.dreaming-robots.com/ | 03:02 |
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| pasky | http://lesswrong.com/lw/e79/ai_timeline_prediction_data/ | 03:24 |
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| fenn | We regret having to add this extra step for our subscribers, but have found it necessary due to systematic automated downloading of our content | 09:21 |
| fenn | so glad you can promote free inquiry | 09:22 |
| fenn | how's that mother of all paperz torrent coming along? | 09:22 |
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| fenn | trying to get "Photoactivation of 180Tam and Its Implications for the Nucleosynthesis of Nature's Rarest Naturally Occurring Isotope" | 09:22 |
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| curt1s | hmm what should i make for erection night dinner | 10:34 |
| fenn | go away | 10:34 |
| curt1s | so you guys enjoy having a dead channel? | 10:35 |
| curt1s | rather than actual chat | 10:36 |
| curt1s | i see. | 10:36 |
| nmz787 | this channel isnt dead | 10:36 |
| curt1s | maybe not. but it might be another 8 hours before anyone else pipes up | 10:39 |
| fenn | it only looks dead because of all the lurkers and their crappy internet connections | 10:39 |
| fenn | 58 nicks who the hell are these people | 10:39 |
| curt1s | good question | 10:39 |
| curt1s | anytime i check in, it's the kanzure show | 10:40 |
| curt1s | not that theres anything wrong with that...just sayin | 10:40 |
| nmz787 | kanzure is a pretty good show | 10:40 |
| curt1s | sure | 10:41 |
| curt1s | i enjoy it | 10:41 |
| fenn | one of these days he'll find all the hidden cameras and sail off the edge of the world | 10:41 |
| fenn | hrmph. back to metastable helium | 10:43 |
| curt1s | nmz787: im here because of the talk you gave at genspace some weeks back | 10:43 |
| curt1s | appreciated it enormously | 10:43 |
| nmz787 | curt1s: cool! thanks! | 10:43 |
| fenn | what was the talk about? | 10:44 |
| nmz787 | were you in the audience or did you see it digitally? | 10:44 |
| curt1s | yeah i was there | 10:44 |
| nmz787 | DNA and its synthesis | 10:44 |
| nmz787 | mainly | 10:44 |
| nmz787 | its on kanzure's youtube channel | 10:44 |
| curt1s | i didnt say hi or hang out afterwards or anything | 10:44 |
| nmz787 | because a 20 second simpsons clip got be a copyrigth strike on youtube, so i can't upload >15 mins videos | 10:44 |
| curt1s | haha | 10:44 |
| nmz787 | well curt1s i've been busy unpacking here in oregon | 10:46 |
| nmz787 | which is why i havent been around to chat | 10:46 |
| nmz787 | but actually i have to run to talk to a guy about renting lab space | 10:46 |
| curt1s | oh nice | 10:46 |
| curt1s | good luck :) | 10:47 |
| nmz787 | what's your background curt1s? | 10:47 |
| nmz787 | ahh well I g2g, will talk more later, hope you stick around curt1s | 10:48 |
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| curt1s | yeah ill be here. definitely chat soon | 10:49 |
| curt1s | whoops :P | 10:49 |
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| Romney2012 | Obama is coming for your guns, then your houses, then your lives | 13:38 |
| ThomasEgi | for monologues , please redirect all messages to /dev/null | 13:39 |
| strangewarp | [14:39] Romney2012 is ~tb36@75-105-12-23.cust.wildblue.net kneemailbigger | 13:39 |
| strangewarp | [14:39] Romney2012 on ##hplusroadmap | 13:39 |
| strangewarp | [14:39] Romney2012 using wolfe.freenode.net Manchester, England | 13:39 |
| strangewarp | [14:39] Romney2012 idle 20, signed on Mon Nov 05 23:48:36 2012 | 13:39 |
| strangewarp | [14:39] -NickServ- romney2012 is not registered. | 13:40 |
| strangewarp | zzzz | 13:40 |
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| foucist | i'm not sure if he was pro-romney or pro-obama | 14:01 |
| foucist | 'coming for your guns' is actually a plus in my book | 14:02 |
| foucist | i don't want my stupid fucking guns | 14:02 |
| uf6667 | cumming on your guns | 14:04 |
| foucist | :D | 14:04 |
| uf6667 | I don't want anyone to cum on my guns | 14:05 |
| ThomasEgi | eew.. | 14:05 |
| uf6667 | showered already today | 14:05 |
| ThomasEgi | but yeah. i feel a lot more comfortable if the people around me are not armed. | 14:06 |
| uf6667 | me too | 14:06 |
| uf6667 | people argue that this would lead to only criminals having guns | 14:06 |
| ThomasEgi | it's like.. a good fistfight might get you in hospital. but a gunfight will get you 6feet under | 14:06 |
| uf6667 | which is retarded really | 14:06 |
| uf6667 | yeah | 14:06 |
| uf6667 | dancing is OK, though I don't like it | 14:06 |
| ThomasEgi | i'm not worried about criminal with guns. | 14:06 |
| uf6667 | but taking a life is not cool | 14:06 |
| ThomasEgi | they have them anyway. like the police and the others | 14:07 |
| uf6667 | criminals with guns don't exist once you remove them | 14:07 |
| ThomasEgi | if someone wants to have a gun. he'll have one. my problem is that it i prefer to have as few as possible. and if idiots are legally allowed to carry guns. i feel unsave | 14:07 |
| uf6667 | exactly | 14:08 |
| ThomasEgi | i don't really feel threated by people who carry guns altho it is illegal because those usualy have a use for it other than shooting me for fun and stupidity | 14:08 |
| uf6667 | in my country, there isn't much gun-related crime | 14:08 |
| uf6667 | mostly just stupid fucks driving drunk | 14:08 |
| uf6667 | crashign their precious R8s | 14:08 |
| ThomasEgi | hehe.. i'm fine with those as long as they don't injure others | 14:09 |
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| uf6667 | me too | 14:09 |
| ThomasEgi | crashing their expensive car is good for economy after all | 14:09 |
| uf6667 | they don't often injure others | 14:09 |
| uf6667 | but one time some cunt almost ran into me | 14:09 |
| uf6667 | I drive a small car and those cunts like to brag | 14:09 |
| uf6667 | so they'll tailgate you and stuff like that | 14:09 |
| uf6667 | I just took the first exit | 14:10 |
| ThomasEgi | hehe.. that sux.. altho i know one car where it's fun to be tailgated | 14:10 |
| uf6667 | I think a few days later he died, I'm not sure though | 14:10 |
| uf6667 | cause it WAS his car | 14:10 |
| ThomasEgi | well.. life fast, die young they say? | 14:10 |
| Urchin[Emacs] | crashed cars are good for body shop workers | 14:11 |
| Urchin[Emacs] | though stupid clients can be lethal | 14:11 |
| ThomasEgi | well i drove one car where it was really fun. an old slow pickup. driving uphill it blew so much smoke out of the exhaust pipe that you could no longer read the license plate of the car behind you | 14:12 |
| ThomasEgi | so... having a cabriolet behind you was really fun.. | 14:12 |
| uf6667 | lol | 14:12 |
| Urchin[Emacs] | lol | 14:12 |
| ThomasEgi | they backed of hundrets of meters | 14:12 |
| ThomasEgi | once it started to go uphill | 14:12 |
| ThomasEgi | best bout that car. it was from a nature-reservat-area | 14:13 |
| ThomasEgi | had logos un the side that read something like "protecting nature - on duty" or so. | 14:13 |
| ThomasEgi | also fun. fixing hiking trails. where i had to drive through the forest with no roads.. crossing other hiking trails.. and the faces of people when suddenly, out of the bushes, a pickup cuts their way. with 2 young people standing on the back shouting "pedal to the metal!" and stuff | 14:15 |
| ThomasEgi | priceless. | 14:15 |
| ThomasEgi | sry.. where did i left the discussion... suiciding rich assholes right. | 14:16 |
| uf6667 | good thing audi and co make their cars so safe | 14:17 |
| uf6667 | makes natural selection harder | 14:17 |
| ThomasEgi | funny when you think about it.. that electronic that stabelises the car.. if you hack it. you can make cars drift out of corners easily. | 14:20 |
| ThomasEgi | but then.. no electronic system will save you when you hit a tree with 200km/h | 14:21 |
| ThomasEgi | it'll just rip your entire car into pieces. | 14:21 |
| Urchin[Emacs] | afaik, audi usually has a powerful engine with bad brakes | 14:23 |
| Urchin[Emacs] | the other way around is better for survivability | 14:24 |
| Urchin[Emacs] | and that would be Mercedes, typically | 14:24 |
| ThomasEgi | breakes won't help you at some point | 14:25 |
| uf6667 | really? | 14:27 |
| uf6667 | I thought audi is very safe | 14:27 |
| uf6667 | just like volvo | 14:27 |
| ThomasEgi | modern cares are all comparebly safe. if you drive them reasonably | 14:28 |
| ThomasEgi | collisions up to 70km/h there is pretty much no danger to you. | 14:29 |
| uf6667 | I think you meant seat | 14:29 |
| uf6667 | seat, as I remember, has really shit brakes | 14:29 |
| uf6667 | also not so good traction | 14:29 |
| ThomasEgi | long story short. speed kills. no matter what car. | 14:31 |
| uf6667 | yes | 14:33 |
| uf6667 | I like living :) | 14:33 |
| uf6667 | but at the same time, I want a car that has "drug dealer" written all over it | 14:33 |
| uf6667 | like a big fat mercedes | 14:34 |
| uf6667 | black one | 14:34 |
| uf6667 | that'd be awesome | 14:34 |
| jrayhawk | Seat shares platforms and parts with other VAG cars, especially brakes. | 14:36 |
| jrayhawk | Brake safety is not really a modern issue unless you think of various types of traction control as 'safety' | 14:36 |
| jrayhawk | There's a fair amount of manufacturer differentiation in braking logic, but it's rare to have a car with an engine that seriously effects braking distance. | 14:39 |
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| jrayhawk | I think it was Car and Driver that did full-throttle braking tests and found that they were pretty much the same as neutral braking tests. | 14:39 |
| jrayhawk | Except for some stupid small-time muscle car, though I can't remember which | 14:40 |
| jrayhawk | maybe a GT500 | 14:40 |
| jrayhawk | oh, no, it was a Roush | 14:41 |
| jrayhawk | huh, i would've expected better from roush | 14:41 |
| jrayhawk | http://www.caranddriver.com/features/how-to-deal-with-unintended-acceleration | 14:42 |
| ThomasEgi | i wouldn't really call electronic stabilisation "braking logic" | 14:45 |
| ThomasEgi | it's more like a beast of simulatios running and estimationg what's probably the most useful thing to do with your car at any given point in time. | 14:46 |
| ThomasEgi | most of the time. it does a better job than what the driver does, or would do. | 14:46 |
| jrayhawk | A lot of the systems cut in too early and eagerly. | 14:47 |
| ThomasEgi | hardly. | 14:47 |
| ThomasEgi | they usualy do a great jop keeping your car on the road. or controllable. | 14:47 |
| jrayhawk | Like staying underneath the dynamic/static hysterisis threshold entirely rather than manipulating traction within it. | 14:47 |
| ThomasEgi | but they too, are bound to the laws of physics | 14:47 |
| ThomasEgi | jrayhawk, a car is not static. | 14:48 |
| ThomasEgi | unless you parked it. | 14:48 |
| jrayhawk | static/dynamic friction. | 14:48 |
| ThomasEgi | you mean slip? | 14:48 |
| jrayhawk | I mean static and dynamic friction. | 14:48 |
| ThomasEgi | probably a mismatch of terms here. | 14:49 |
| jrayhawk | No. | 14:49 |
| ThomasEgi | like rolling friction and sliding? | 14:49 |
| ThomasEgi | anyway i sorta have the feeling we think of the same thing with different terms | 14:51 |
| ThomasEgi | there'? no real threshold between those 2 anyway. more like a fluid transition. | 14:51 |
| jrayhawk | 'hysterisis' | 14:51 |
| jrayhawk | er, hysteresis | 14:52 |
| jrayhawk | I can spell, I swear. | 14:52 |
| ThomasEgi | and modern break systems try their best to find the best combination between beeing able to control your car, and keeping break distance short. | 14:52 |
| ThomasEgi | it works very good. | 14:52 |
| jrayhawk | That's how I *wish* it would work. | 14:52 |
| jrayhawk | In reality, most of them stay under that hysteresis threshold. | 14:52 |
| ThomasEgi | the only case where it does a slightly worse job than without electronics is when breaking on sand and snow, where a small cone of material increases friction in front of the wheel. | 14:53 |
| ThomasEgi | there is no "hysteresis" or threshold. | 14:53 |
| ThomasEgi | as i said. fluid transition. | 14:53 |
| jrayhawk | No. | 14:54 |
| ThomasEgi | those systems kick in very late tho. | 14:54 |
| ThomasEgi | when you are nearing the limits of "without electronic the car would start to move in a direction it should not" | 14:54 |
| ThomasEgi | so. those systems are really designed for emergency drive situations. | 14:55 |
| ThomasEgi | in every-day-driving situations they usualy don't do anything at all. | 14:55 |
| ThomasEgi | except for making sure your breaks are dry and ready do be used | 14:55 |
| ThomasEgi | the really spectacuar thing about those stabilisation systems is.. how nonspectacular they are in action. | 14:57 |
| jrayhawk | I guess that must be the reason that modern systems are so bad; avoiding dramatic behaviors. | 14:58 |
| ThomasEgi | hehe true. | 14:58 |
| ThomasEgi | i've been on a test track from TRW (the guys who build those system) | 14:59 |
| ThomasEgi | had the pleasure of taking a seat in one of their test cars. | 14:59 |
| ThomasEgi | watching from outside you are like "omg.. that car's so going to crash" | 14:59 |
| ThomasEgi | and when you sit inside.. all you think is.. hm.. ok that.. was a sharp corner, they could make those seats more comfortable. | 15:00 |
| ThomasEgi | and the driver really pushed it. | 15:00 |
| ThomasEgi | but really. as a user. it's almost impossible to tell when the system is active and when not. | 15:01 |
| jrayhawk | Depends on the system. I have yet to be in a good one, but I'm willing to believe they exist. | 15:01 |
| jrayhawk | Car reviewers claim they do, at least. I guess they would know better than me. | 15:02 |
| ThomasEgi | might be just my experience. those cars we drove around with were rather high-class cars. | 15:02 |
| ThomasEgi | but .. all of them on the market | 15:02 |
| jrayhawk | Most of the systems I've gotten pissed off at have been in low-end cars. | 15:02 |
| ThomasEgi | not every car is equiped with all mechanisms tho. | 15:02 |
| ThomasEgi | especially low end cars usaly only have a very basic version. not very well tuned. they do add some safety but yeah | 15:03 |
| ThomasEgi | mostly to comply with the legal requirements. | 15:03 |
| ThomasEgi | it's like.. ok, it does fulfil the required parametrs, it breaksm, it doesnt knock over, it remains on track. let's ship it. | 15:03 |
| ThomasEgi | while the more expensive cars it goes more like "ok, the car fulfils all requirements, but.. it doesn't feel like what we want our car to feel like" | 15:04 |
| ThomasEgi | and then they tune parameters for ages. | 15:04 |
| ThomasEgi | until the car "feels right" | 15:04 |
| ThomasEgi | which usualy means the driver feels like he's the most professional driver on earth cause his car remains stable and on-track even if he drives totaly reckless. | 15:05 |
| jrayhawk | The Mercedes ones are actually ones I hear a lot of complaints about from car reviewers, but I'm guessing that's 'staying-under-the-threshold-of-hysteresis-to-make-things-smooth' as alluded to earlier. | 15:05 |
| ThomasEgi | and.. low end cars are like "omg shit,, that felt like i'm just was about to die" | 15:05 |
| ThomasEgi | as i said. there is no throshold or hysteresis. | 15:06 |
| ThomasEgi | just hundrets of parameters. if you tweak them right. the car feels smooth to drive | 15:06 |
| ThomasEgi | even if you are a brink away from drifting off the road | 15:06 |
| jrayhawk | The high threshold of static friction is higher than the low threshold of dynamic friction. | 15:07 |
| jrayhawk | Thus, hysteresis. | 15:07 |
| ThomasEgi | i .. hate to repeat myself. | 15:07 |
| ThomasEgi | but.. it aint as easy as textbooks suggests | 15:07 |
| jrayhawk | That window still exists. | 15:08 |
| ThomasEgi | the actual force you can transfer using a wheel+ground combination is a lot more complex function | 15:08 |
| ThomasEgi | mostly depending on "slip" | 15:08 |
| jrayhawk | Yes, but that window still exists and is still deeply significant. | 15:08 |
| ThomasEgi | and highly depending conditions. | 15:08 |
| ThomasEgi | true. there is a window of optimal operation. | 15:08 |
| ThomasEgi | but most of the time. you don't even get near that. | 15:09 |
| ThomasEgi | for normal driving. that's usualy only the case in emergency situaitons | 15:09 |
| jrayhawk | Ha ha, you apparently have never driven with me :P | 15:09 |
| ThomasEgi | i said for "normal" driving | 15:09 |
| ThomasEgi | as i said. i did experience the ride on that test track, and those guys really pused it. | 15:09 |
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| ThomasEgi | what was the original discussion anyway? | 15:10 |
| ThomasEgi | reckless rich guys crashing their R8? | 15:10 |
| jrayhawk | 14:23 < Urchin[Emacs]> afaik, audi usually has a powerful engine with bad brakes | 15:11 |
| ThomasEgi | oh.. hehe. no. | 15:11 |
| ThomasEgi | they have good brakes. but.. the brakes arent the problem really. all brakes can block the wheel in worst case. no need for stronger ones. | 15:11 |
| jrayhawk | Yeah. | 15:11 |
| ThomasEgi | the rest. is how you controll them. | 15:11 |
| ThomasEgi | and audi has rather good control over them. | 15:11 |
| jrayhawk | i wonder if that's a VAG system or a Bosch system | 15:13 |
| jrayhawk | i would prefer Bosch stay the hell away from my brakes | 15:13 |
| ThomasEgi | hm... not sure. | 15:13 |
| jrayhawk | i mean, even if i weren't an obsessive perfectionist asshole about technique | 15:14 |
| ThomasEgi | personally . i would wouldn't use bosch for braking systems either. | 15:14 |
| ThomasEgi | but that's because a guy i once worked with is now working for bosch. | 15:15 |
| ThomasEgi | and he's flat out stupid. | 15:15 |
| jrayhawk | Well, Lucas is out of business, so where else will incompetents go? | 15:16 |
| ThomasEgi | hm. | 15:18 |
| ThomasEgi | we still have microsof | 15:18 |
| jrayhawk | And I suppose antilock systems do much, much better than a standard mechanical balancing system can on highly dynamic surfaces like leaves, patchy ice/snow, natural terrains, etc. | 15:18 |
| ThomasEgi | and the apple-maps guys | 15:18 |
| ThomasEgi | jrayhawk, correct | 15:18 |
| ThomasEgi | especially since such a system can break individual wheels. | 15:18 |
| jrayhawk | Yeah. That's the big key. | 15:19 |
| ThomasEgi | which does help a lot to keep the car controllable | 15:19 |
| jrayhawk | It'd be fun to have a three-degree-of-freedom pedal for brake balance. | 15:28 |
| jrayhawk | I wonder if the F1 world ever tried that. | 15:28 |
| ThomasEgi | why would they? | 15:29 |
| jrayhawk | Electronic assists got banned. | 15:29 |
| ThomasEgi | doubt tha'd give any noticable advantage | 15:30 |
| jrayhawk | Yeah, flat tarmac is pretty predictable. | 15:30 |
| jrayhawk | I guess it'd be a bigger deal in rallying, but they have electronic assists, there. | 15:31 |
| jrayhawk | Though, I guess, there's a lot of predictive crazy slip operations they do, so maybe... | 15:32 |
| jrayhawk | like Scandanavian flicks and what not to get tires oriented the way they want before hitting ruts, and whatnot. | 15:33 |
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| fenn | aha i found the paper on www.hafniumisomer.org | 18:24 |
| fenn | thank the laird for hoarders | 18:24 |
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| strangewarp | LEGAL WEED BITCHES | 21:24 |
| strangewarp | AAAAaaaaaaaa | 21:24 |
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| --- Log closed Wed Nov 07 00:00:18 2012 | ||
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