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| foucist | yippee kay yay | 08:01 |
|---|---|---|
| -!- kneemailbigger is now known as nmaleebigger | 08:25 | |
| -!- nmaleebigger is now known as biggernmale | 08:25 | |
| Maluseth1 | can someone give me a list of equipments needed for a fab lab | 08:29 |
| Maluseth1 | i think i can convince my grandma to buy me some stuff :) | 08:29 |
| Maluseth1 | how can i buy a laser cutter + cnc milling machine cheap? | 08:36 |
| Maluseth1 | (as possible) | 08:36 |
| Maluseth1 | if i can buy it i will post up pictures here! | 08:36 |
| Maluseth1 | and my uses | 08:36 |
| Maluseth1 | i'll learn to use it | 08:37 |
| Maluseth1 | so reading this book, it says i need: | 08:55 |
| Maluseth1 | 3D printer, Laser cutter, CNC milling machine. | 08:55 |
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| Maluseth1 | can plasma cutter do everything laser cutters can do? | 09:23 |
| ThomasEgi | iirc. plasma is a great option for metals. not sure how far you'll get with non metallic materials | 09:24 |
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| fenn | Maluseth1: see http://gnusha.org/skdb/ "typical fablab inventory" and also http://makerspace.com/maker-news/makerspace-playbook | 09:53 |
| fenn | you don't "need" any particular set of tools, it's just some are more fun to play with than others | 09:54 |
| fenn | plasma is higher power, can cut through half inch steel, makes more noise and dust and electrical interference, can only cut conductive materials | 09:55 |
| fenn | laser is clean quiet and can do finer detailed work such as engraving or drilling holes in circuit boards | 09:55 |
| fenn | as for "what do i need to print circuit boards" all you need is a laser printer and a clothes iron | 09:56 |
| fenn | google "toner transfer technique" | 09:56 |
| fenn | small chinese laser cutters are so cheap these days.. | 09:57 |
| fenn | i wonder if they're worth the hassle | 09:57 |
| fenn | also, Maluseth1 there's a big difference between a PCB mill (etching machine really) and a true CNC milling machine designed for cutting metal | 09:58 |
| fenn | about a thousand pounds of difference | 09:58 |
| ThomasEgi | milling pcb's hardly makes sense. it's quite expensive and wears down mill bits like crazy | 10:00 |
| ThomasEgi | only application where it is somewhat tollerable are when you only have a single board ever manufactored. or for HF applications where you need propper trace profiles. | 10:01 |
| fenn | i agree, milling pcb's is dumb | 10:03 |
| ThomasEgi | in most cases,yes. | 10:04 |
| ThomasEgi | exceptions apply. as always | 10:04 |
| fenn | i think my favorite approach is direct inkjet mask followed by etch and then laser cut/drill | 10:04 |
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| fenn | so the idea for 45 degree trace sides is to prevent capacitive coupling? why does the angle matter? i don't get it | 10:05 |
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| ThomasEgi | sharp corners lead to peaks in the current distribution in a trace | 10:09 |
| ThomasEgi | which can lead to electromigration. | 10:09 |
| ThomasEgi | road as.. too much current on a sharp corner will eat a hole into your trace. | 10:10 |
| fenn | oh, skin effect | 10:17 |
| fenn | can't you selectively etch off the corners somehow? | 10:17 |
| fenn | i've read about electropolishing but seems that would be difficult with so many conductors on a board | 10:18 |
| ThomasEgi | it's not the skin effect | 10:18 |
| ThomasEgi | it's more like. electrons cutting the corner | 10:19 |
| fenn | is the problem inside corners or outside corners? | 10:19 |
| ThomasEgi | inside | 10:19 |
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| * klafka_ pokes kanzure | 10:19 | |
| klafka_ | wow he's not here | 10:19 |
| klafka_ | thsi feels soo wrong | 10:19 |
| fenn | gnusha went down yesterday and i guess kanzure is fighting zombies in a cabin in the woods or something | 10:20 |
| archels | http://www.mauve.plus.com/opensourcehw.txt | 10:20 |
| archels | where the fuck is kanzure | 10:20 |
| Dr_Science | pinky stuck in urethra | 10:21 |
| Dr_Science | (Again) | 10:21 |
| fenn | brb | 10:21 |
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| ThomasEgi | fenn, http://images.elektroda.net/60_1247376886.jpg | 10:36 |
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| klafka_ | aah | 11:15 |
| fenn | i still don't get why it matters what shape the outside corner is | 11:17 |
| fenn | also you can just etch a fillet on the inside corner? (in 2d artwork) | 11:18 |
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| nmz787 | ThomasEgi: you around? | 11:33 |
| ThomasEgi | sure | 11:33 |
| nmz787 | ThomasEgi: saw you talking cars with jrayhawk, a friend who is an auto engineer is looking to send around his resume | 11:34 |
| nmz787 | I guess he's tired of Delphi | 11:34 |
| ThomasEgi | so.. what would i have to do with this? | 11:34 |
| nmz787 | my friend just asked if i knew anyone in auto industry that I could forward his resume to | 11:35 |
| nmz787 | and i was just reading the logs | 11:35 |
| nmz787 | :P | 11:35 |
| nmz787 | Maluseth1: you there? | 11:36 |
| ThomasEgi | nmz787, well in that case.. i'm not in the auto industry at all. | 11:36 |
| nmz787 | :D ok | 11:38 |
| nmz787 | ThomasEgi: that electron density diagram you posted for fenn, what would you call that instead of 'electron density diagram'? | 11:39 |
| nmz787 | http://images.elektroda.net/60_1247376886.jpg | 11:39 |
| nmz787 | that one | 11:39 |
| nmz787 | i've wondered about that sort of image for things like capillary electrophoresis | 11:40 |
| nmz787 | basically ions migrating due to the e-field | 11:40 |
| ThomasEgi | hm in this case. it is ions getting pushed around by a massive rush of electrons | 11:40 |
| nmz787 | but if I wanted to have a folded channel for those ions, what would the ideal corner be? | 11:40 |
| ThomasEgi | round | 11:41 |
| nmz787 | i imagine like cars on a track, the ions with a tighter radius would make it through the curve faster | 11:41 |
| ThomasEgi | in early days of pcb designing. people used hand drawn acrs | 11:41 |
| nmz787 | so I may need to have as many Right turns as Left to keep the ions in line by the time they got to the end of the trace/channel | 11:41 |
| ThomasEgi | with computer aided design, arcs are possible but a bit ... well not so easy to compute. lines are by far simpler. | 11:41 |
| ThomasEgi | and 45degree angles turned out to be ok-enough for most applications. | 11:42 |
| ThomasEgi | it is not like a 90 degree corner will go bad just like that. but the risk that it will take damage under worst-case operation is a lot higher than that of 2x45 | 11:44 |
| ThomasEgi | so.. it established as good practice to use 45 degree angles. another point where current density can ruin your day are vias. | 11:45 |
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| nmz787 | cause they're basically 90 degrees? | 11:51 |
| nmz787 | (vias) | 11:51 |
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| ThomasEgi | shar angle, and often an even smaller area for conductance. there are entire studies around vias | 11:51 |
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| Maluseth1 | fenn: thank you for the reference. I am researching it right now. | 16:25 |
| Maluseth1 | it looks like they have similar functions.. | 16:26 |
| Maluseth1 | i think i fundamentally need: laser cutter (if i can afford it), 3D printer, CNC milling machine, 3D scanner. | 16:26 |
| Maluseth1 | what is the difference between a CNC router and a CNC milling machine anyway | 16:27 |
| Maluseth1 | My grandma is kinda rich | 16:27 |
| Maluseth1 | hehe :) | 16:27 |
| Maluseth1 | but - i have to convince her that this is good for me | 16:27 |
| Urchin | what are you trying to do? | 16:27 |
| Maluseth1 | i want to build a fab lab and build things | 16:27 |
| Maluseth1 | brb | 16:27 |
| fenn | first, decide what you want to build | 16:34 |
| fenn | then decide if it makes sense to buy the tool or just contract out the work | 16:34 |
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| Maluseth1 | yes i have a vague idea but mostly impractical. it's my grandma's money that i am thinking to spend it so much... | 16:38 |
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| Maluseth1 | right now thinking electronics programming + metal shells, plastic gears for toys :) | 16:39 |
| fenn | blegh | 16:39 |
| fenn | i wish i could point you at a list of useful things to do | 16:39 |
| uf6667 | Maluseth1: I would suggest getting stem cells | 16:39 |
| uf6667 | and electrodes | 16:39 |
| uf6667 | fucking awesome stuff | 16:39 |
| Maluseth1 | electrodes? stuff that goes on glass panels? | 16:39 |
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| fenn | uf6667: what are you suggesting exactly? | 16:40 |
| uf6667 | I'm suggesting you grow a brain | 16:40 |
| uf6667 | around electrodes | 16:40 |
| Maluseth1 | how do you go about making an lcd anyway? can you print the electrodes directly onto the glass by using inkjet? | 16:40 |
| uf6667 | so that you can probe those fuckers | 16:40 |
| fenn | hah | 16:40 |
| uf6667 | that shit would be AWESOME | 16:40 |
| uf6667 | even nanotubes in there | 16:40 |
| Maluseth1 | i am trying to grow a brain hahaha | 16:40 |
| fenn | i think warwick has a little robot like that | 16:40 |
| uf6667 | man that shit would be amazing | 16:40 |
| Maluseth1 | in me though. not outside | 16:41 |
| Maluseth1 | i dont think brains can live outside the body not with todays technology | 16:41 |
| uf6667 | got someone with shizophrenia and not sure if it's a MAO related issue? no problem, grow his brain on a stick with nanotubes n shit | 16:41 |
| fenn | sure they can, just need lots of antibiotics | 16:41 |
| uf6667 | Maluseth1: using cerebral fluid it can | 16:41 |
| uf6667 | it's how it survives in your cranium | 16:41 |
| Maluseth1 | fenn: i will update as i go thank you for your suggestions - im making a blog. | 16:41 |
| Maluseth1 | my grandma wants to support me as much as possible, if there be a good reason. and i think this is it. | 16:42 |
| uf6667 | Maluseth1: do you have any degree? | 16:42 |
| Maluseth1 | i want to be a chemist but this mechanical engineering stuff is amazing too | 16:42 |
| fenn | perhaps you should be an analytical chemist | 16:42 |
| Maluseth1 | no... i'm 19 and i just got out of school | 16:42 |
| uf6667 | maybe you could become a pharmacist | 16:43 |
| Maluseth1 | i'm thinking chemical engineering | 16:43 |
| Maluseth1 | so that i connect to all areas and industries | 16:43 |
| Maluseth1 | like chemistry connects everything right? | 16:43 |
| fenn | well see, analytical chemistry involves lots of "stuff" that you generally have to hack on to make it do exactly what you want | 16:43 |
| Maluseth1 | biochem organic chem, material chem | 16:43 |
| Maluseth1 | minerals, metallogy | 16:44 |
| fenn | where said stuff is made of metal and electronics and chemical solutions | 16:44 |
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| Maluseth1 | oh | 16:44 |
| Maluseth1 | i wonder how chemical engineering compares to that | 16:44 |
| fenn | chemical engineering is boring, just lots of spreadsheets | 16:44 |
| brownies | occasionally a graph | 16:45 |
| brownies | but always a very boring graph. | 16:45 |
| Maluseth1 | ooooo spreadsheets :) | 16:45 |
| Maluseth1 | hehe | 16:45 |
| Maluseth1 | i see so it's like data crunching | 16:45 |
| Maluseth1 | lots of things to memorize | 16:45 |
| fenn | today i was reading about crossed tunable dye laser spectrometers | 16:45 |
| brownies | i studied chem e for a year or so. i assure you that "crunching" is far too exciting of a word. | 16:45 |
| fenn | for measuring the lamb shift | 16:45 |
| Maluseth1 | o | 16:46 |
| fenn | really the worst thing you could do is go to school as a student | 16:47 |
| brownies | oh, here comes the anti-college hype -_- | 16:47 |
| fenn | whatever, been there, done that, big fucking waste of time and money | 16:47 |
| fenn | "but it makes me FEEL good!" | 16:47 |
| brownies | generally only for you, for the bitter dropouts, and for the fools who majored in useless things | 16:48 |
| brownies | broadly speaking, it can be very useful. | 16:48 |
| fenn | i don't think molecular biology is useless | 16:48 |
| fenn | i just learned more on my own outside of class | 16:48 |
| Maluseth1 | yeah to be honest it's hard and my mind is all over the places i can't make the grade. but if i focus and learn in my own way, i am sure i'll eventually know everything there is to the topic then i might go back to school. | 16:48 |
| brownies | right, i meant those as 3 different categories. | 16:48 |
| brownies | well, if you want to major in, say, experimental physics, you're not going to get far without a university | 16:49 |
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| fenn | agreed | 16:49 |
| fenn | i'm actually thinking about going to grad school for experimental physics :( | 16:49 |
| fenn | i wish it weren't set up this way | 16:49 |
| brownies | by the time you get over to the more abstract end of the spectrum -- say, math -- it becomes a lot more important the nature of the specific people and department at a given university | 16:49 |
| brownies | set up what way? | 16:49 |
| fenn | but then how am i going to accumulate smart physics people in my cult compound in the desert? | 16:50 |
| fenn | the world is structured such that there's no (meaningful) independent experimental physics culture | 16:50 |
| fenn | either it's mega corporation r&d lab, or mega university | 16:51 |
| Maluseth1 | physics = money. research follows money. i think. | 16:51 |
| Maluseth1 | not the other way around. | 16:52 |
| Maluseth1 | then more independent experimental physics | 16:52 |
| Maluseth1 | far from theories | 16:52 |
| Maluseth1 | would be nice to see that happening to every individual | 16:52 |
| Maluseth1 | then the world would be an interesting place | 16:52 |
| fenn | hrm i could swear there was a short story called "chlorinating the moderator" about some nerd utopia where people built nuclear reactors in the conference hotel swimming pool | 16:53 |
| Maluseth1 | hehe i talk like i know something i dont | 16:53 |
| Maluseth1 | must have had connections in the first place to do that | 16:54 |
| Maluseth1 | you need special ingredients | 16:54 |
| Maluseth1 | im guessing | 16:54 |
| brownies | that all sounds like a terrible idea. | 16:54 |
| fenn | ah i found it, but i can't copy the url because dillo sucks | 16:54 |
| Maluseth1 | bbl | 16:54 |
| fenn | http://www.antipope.org/charlie/fiction/moderator.html | 16:55 |
| fenn | man, stross is such a terrible writer | 16:57 |
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| superkuh | I like his writing, even divorced from the awesome concepts. | 17:14 |
| fenn | for me the hodgepodge of ideas lifted wholesale from tt and similar mailing lists is too distracting from any story that might exist | 17:16 |
| fenn | it is useful as a quick getter up to speed for introducing people to a large set of new ideas though | 17:17 |
| fenn | ah that reminds me, Maluseth1 if you are looking for some projects to work on, you might find something you are interested in here: http://diyhpl.us/cgit/skdb/plain/doc/proposals/trans-tech.yaml | 17:19 |
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| fenn | hm some of those dependencies are backwards | 17:21 |
| superkuh | "neuro->infrared stim" ? | 17:21 |
| fenn | iirc near IR can cause blood vessel dilation | 17:21 |
| superkuh | Heating in general then? | 17:22 |
| superkuh | (the mechanism) | 17:22 |
| fenn | not sure | 17:22 |
| fenn | A novel method for damage-free, artifact-free stimulation of neural tissue using | 17:22 |
| fenn | pulsed, low-energy infrared laser light is presented | 17:22 |
| fenn | Optical stimulation elicits compound nerve and muscle potentials similar to responses obtained with conventional electrical neural stimulation in a rat sciatic nerve model. | 17:23 |
| fenn | that's not through the skull though | 17:23 |
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| superkuh | Okay. Very neat, regardless. I'll read more. | 17:24 |
| fenn | Stimulation of nerves via infrared rather than electrical methods offers benefits | 17:24 |
| fenn | such as improved spatial selectivity in the brain and cochlea | 17:24 |
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| fenn | aha, clonezilla is what i was looking for | 17:32 |
| ThomasEgi | fenn, got a paper on stimulation on motoric/sensoric nerves? | 17:36 |
| ThomasEgi | if that turns out to be working there too. stimulation should be rather reasonable, given today's advances in micro-optics. | 17:40 |
| fenn | ThomasEgi: just reading interesting bits from the first page of a google search | 17:42 |
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| fenn | anyway this was the paper http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16409069 | 17:43 |
| ThomasEgi | sounds pretty sweet for stimulation.. | 17:48 |
| ThomasEgi | wish nerves would light up just the same way :D would make things a lot easier | 17:48 |
| ThomasEgi | paywalled. :( | 17:49 |
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| Maluseth1 | please give me a listing of bioinformatics/ PCR? equipments for biology. I may be able to get a grant of $50,000 from grandma and i'm gonna buy these and learn. | 18:43 |
| Maluseth1 | she's so far approving it - if i can make a great presentation of their use. | 18:43 |
| yashgaroth | bioinformatics: a computer | 18:44 |
| Maluseth1 | My goal is, 01. Electronics control system for motorized machinary, | 18:44 |
| Maluseth1 | & toys. | 18:44 |
| Maluseth1 | err... 02. for biology, hacking into cells? | 18:45 |
| Maluseth1 | cell programming and genetic sequencing? | 18:45 |
| Maluseth1 | for making pharma products + | 18:45 |
| Maluseth1 | stem cells? | 18:45 |
| Maluseth1 | i put question marks there, as i'm just reciting my hunches i dont understand them. | 18:45 |
| Maluseth1 | the goal is to have the tools to produce something of this nature | 18:46 |
| yashgaroth | so, for 1: you want to do lab automation? like having a robot perform all the liquid transfers? | 18:46 |
| Maluseth1 | yes, that's one of the goals. | 18:46 |
| Maluseth1 | and working with vehicles | 18:46 |
| yashgaroth | well I can't really speak to the except for the lab side, so I'll try and take on 2 | 18:47 |
| Maluseth1 | i'll be posting my progress here in a blog. | 18:47 |
| yashgaroth | pcr machine, centrifuge, heat block, water bath, gel box + power supply, pipettors, stir plate... | 18:48 |
| yashgaroth | many types of tubes and flasks and beakers to hold all the various chemicals...oh, and a whole bunch of chemicals | 18:48 |
| yashgaroth | autoclave, incubator, fridge/freezer/microwave | 18:49 |
| yashgaroth | probably don't need a microscope unless you do work with eukaryotes | 18:49 |
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| Maluseth1 | all i know is gpu processing helps gene sequencing lol... | 18:50 |
| yashgaroth | biological products, i.e. cell lines, genetic fragments, enzymes | 18:51 |
| yashgaroth | gene sequencing isn't really computationally restricted at this point, unless you count analysis | 18:51 |
| yashgaroth | GPUs are great for a lot of things though | 18:51 |
| Maluseth1 | plan on getting k10 kepler | 18:52 |
| yashgaroth | oh and a whole stack of books, by which I mean pdf files | 18:52 |
| Maluseth1 | like diy bio? | 18:52 |
| Maluseth1 | sorry typing w. one hand dislocated right shouldr | 18:53 |
| yashgaroth | in what regard, for GPUs? I suppose | 18:53 |
| Maluseth1 | o it hurts | 18:53 |
| yashgaroth | pop that sucker back in | 18:53 |
| Maluseth1 | its in but hurts | 18:53 |
| yashgaroth | get drunk | 18:54 |
| Maluseth1 | searing pain joint tendon damage | 18:54 |
| yashgaroth | really drunk | 18:54 |
| Maluseth1 | im 19...not allowed | 18:54 |
| Maluseth1 | haha | 18:55 |
| yashgaroth | go downtown and get some weed then | 18:55 |
| Maluseth1 | not in this house neway | 18:55 |
| Maluseth1 | yeah maybe | 18:55 |
| Maluseth1 | but i gotta finish the list | 18:56 |
| yashgaroth | anyway I'd recommend starting on reading before you buy a bunch of equipment you don't know how to use/don't understand whyhow it's useful | 18:56 |
| nmz787 | yashgaroth: hey I have access to a FIB | 18:56 |
| nmz787 | got any ideas for generating $ or customers? | 18:57 |
| yashgaroth | great can you carve my face onto the moon | 18:57 |
| yashgaroth | oh | 18:57 |
| yashgaroth | ...I will give you ten dollars to carve my face onto the moon | 18:57 |
| Maluseth1 | yes i agree ty 4 the lead | 18:57 |
| nmz787 | like, they have a master of the whole bible on a cross that is maybe 1 inch square. the text is literally etched into the silicon | 18:57 |
| yashgaroth | let me read up on ion beams, I only know about ion cannons | 18:58 |
| nmz787 | so you can just heat it on a hot plate and melt a piece of plastic to make copies | 18:58 |
| nmz787 | could easily read it at 500X optical mag | 18:58 |
| nmz787 | ahh, it is a stream of gallium ions | 18:58 |
| nmz787 | field of view is 1mm x 1mm | 18:58 |
| yashgaroth | what's the minimum reliable channel width you can carve into something? | 18:58 |
| nmz787 | but it can resolve around 10-30nm | 18:59 |
| nmz787 | so it images and ablates and implants via shooting gallium ions | 18:59 |
| nmz787 | the image comes from secondary electron emission after the gallium hits | 18:59 |
| nmz787 | http://www.norsam.com/ | 19:00 |
| nmz787 | yashgaroth: do you have contacts for me in portland | 19:00 |
| nmz787 | ? | 19:00 |
| yashgaroth | not any bio people | 19:00 |
| yashgaroth | may I recommend washington state, the leaves turn such pretty colors in about a month from now | 19:01 |
| nmz787 | micro people? | 19:01 |
| nmz787 | or midgets even | 19:01 |
| yashgaroth | nope, artsy types | 19:01 |
| nmz787 | well lemme know if you hear about anything cool going on, artsy has its place | 19:01 |
| nmz787 | can't always be psyched about python and shooting ions at stuff | 19:02 |
| yashgaroth | hard as I try | 19:02 |
| fenn | (why not?) | 19:02 |
| nmz787 | :F | 19:03 |
| nmz787 | :D | 19:03 |
| * fenn is always psyched about python and shooting stuff | 19:03 | |
| fenn | okay time to upgrayeddd | 19:04 |
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