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| nmz787 | holy crap kanzure's nick isn't signed in | 09:57 |
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| nmz787 | wow | 09:57 |
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| nmz787 | http://www.ford.com/cars/cmax/specifications/engine/ | 11:06 |
| nmz787 | 188 combinerd hp | 11:06 |
| nmz787 | combined* | 11:06 |
| nmz787 | hmm starting at $25k is a little high | 11:08 |
| nmz787 | a 2 or 3 year old prius is around $10k | 11:08 |
| nmz787 | (sorry clicked an ad for this car) | 11:08 |
| jrayhawk | miniminivan | 11:12 |
| fenn | atkinson cycle with CVT? that's unusual | 11:12 |
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| fenn | sort of the opposite of a supercharger | 11:15 |
| jrayhawk | you can add a supercharger to it and it becomes a miller cycle | 11:16 |
| fenn | this is quite similar to an engine i "designed" a few years ago http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:WikiDartEngine.gif | 11:17 |
| fenn | i wasn't sure it would actually work, otherwise why arent more engines built this way | 11:17 |
| jrayhawk | safety, longevity, and fuel efficiency research are really expensive and the auto industry is tragicly conservative | 11:20 |
| fenn | sure but what about lawnmowers, generators, etc | 11:21 |
| jrayhawk | Commodities; no money for research. | 11:21 |
| fenn | i hate this world | 11:22 |
| fenn | i'm leaving :P | 11:22 |
| fenn | nice overview of the engine here: http://white-smoke.wetpaint.com/page/Rotary+Engine | 11:23 |
| jrayhawk | The leading rotor would be hard to seal and hard to keep clean enough to keep from jamming. | 11:23 |
| jrayhawk | No equivalent to and oil ring or a compression ring. | 11:24 |
| jrayhawk | I guess the leading and trailing edges just have to act like apex seals. | 11:26 |
| jrayhawk | Tragicly frequent replacement. | 11:26 |
| jrayhawk | http://ih3.redbubble.net/image.10534006.8846/sticker,375x360.png | 11:27 |
| fenn | there's no line contact though, it's the entire surface of the cylinder that seals | 11:29 |
| jrayhawk | Yeah, and that's a lot of drag. | 11:29 |
| fenn | well, pick your battle | 11:30 |
| fenn | it's not much more area than a cylinder | 11:30 |
| fenn | er, the usual cylinder arrangement i mean | 11:30 |
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| fenn | i think i'd like to make a really small one to run on ether and vegetable oil | 11:32 |
| fenn | or maybe just butane | 11:33 |
| jrayhawk | FWIW the reason the Renesis exists despite having terrible mileage and reliability is that there's a tax on engine displacement in Japan that rewards concurrent-cycle engines. So, maybe you should move to Japan to get engine research funded. | 11:33 |
| jrayhawk | Or, I guess pipeline-cycle engines | 11:33 |
| fenn | meh, internal combustion is really not that interesting anymore | 11:34 |
| fenn | after i learned about thermophotovoltaics and thermoacoustics, i was like, why do we have moving parts again? | 11:34 |
| jrayhawk | 11:30 < fenn> it's not much more area than a cylinder | 11:35 |
| jrayhawk | That's not relevant; cylinders have tiny sealing areas. | 11:35 |
| fenn | i guess i dont understand the difference | 11:36 |
| jrayhawk | Look up 'compression ring' and 'oil ring' | 11:36 |
| fenn | if there's too much area, reduce the area. what do rings have to do with it? | 11:36 |
| jrayhawk | Yeah, that's why I was saying that the leading and trailing edge need to be the equivalent of apex seals. | 11:36 |
| fenn | more area = more drag, longer life | 11:37 |
| fenn | presumably there's a point of diminishing returns, and you build it somewhere around there | 11:37 |
| jrayhawk | Not when dirty combustion chambers are involved! | 11:37 |
| jrayhawk | And rotary designs are appallingly dirty. | 11:38 |
| fenn | because of the corners? | 11:38 |
| fenn | there was some other design with a toroidal compression volume, it looked difficult to make | 11:39 |
| jrayhawk | Yeah. I guess I haven't seen direct injection done on rotaries; maybe it would help. | 11:39 |
| jrayhawk | Well, the corners and probably the high degree of oil usage. | 11:39 |
| fenn | is there a good reason why not to have separate compression and expansion cylinders, with an intermedia combustion chamber and valves? | 11:40 |
| fenn | intermediate | 11:41 |
| jrayhawk | I've seen similar designs; I wonder if I can find them... | 11:42 |
| fenn | i figure it's just more compact to re-use the cylinder | 11:42 |
| jrayhawk | there was one wacky company that was doing a compression cylinder -> expansion cylinder -> water injection heat scavanging cylinder | 11:42 |
| fenn | yeah that's pretty reasonable thing to do if you're after efficiency at all costs | 11:43 |
| jrayhawk | I think turbos are more fun for heat scavanging... | 11:43 |
| fenn | was reading about "lightsail energy" the other day, they do something like that for compressed air energy storage | 11:44 |
| fenn | awful name for a compressed air company but whatever | 11:44 |
| jrayhawk | though i guess I'm a little too car-oriented | 11:44 |
| fenn | imho prime movers should be matched to the average power, and fluctuations dealt with by storing energy | 11:45 |
| fenn | lightsail was originally going to do cars, but the politics forced them into the utility grid market (imagine that, utility companies are less conservative than car companies) | 11:46 |
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| fenn | some day we'll have underground parabolic vacuum tubes and just catapult ourselves point to point | 11:48 |
| ParahSail1n | moving parts have power density | 11:48 |
| fenn | hm? | 11:48 |
| fenn | flywheels? | 11:48 |
| ParahSail1n | "why do we have moving parts again?" | 11:48 |
| fenn | power density per what | 11:48 |
| fenn | engines are big heavy things | 11:49 |
| ParahSail1n | volume, mass | 11:49 |
| ThomasEgi | fenn, befor someone spends the money for vaccum tube transportation. my guess would be they hop the ground-effect-vehicle way. | 11:54 |
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| ThomasEgi | it provides a great tradeoff and comes with a lot less upfront costs | 11:55 |
| fenn | http://vri.etec.wwu.edu/tpv_paper.html the "viking 29" 10kW generator is 432mm*864mm*696mm for a power density of 0.03kW/l and | 11:55 |
| fenn | i can't find any specs on how much it weighs, but it's basically sheet metal and layers of silicon | 11:55 |
| fenn | ThomasEgi: evacuated zero-G transport (well, 1G inverse) is the fastest way to get between to points on a planet short of teleportation | 11:57 |
| ThomasEgi | but by far not the cheapest | 11:57 |
| ThomasEgi | and.. whatever you transport.. someone has to pay the bill | 11:57 |
| fenn | the cheapest is sitting still | 11:58 |
| fenn | what do you mean "the bill" | 11:58 |
| ThomasEgi | the money it costs to build and operate a mean of transportation | 11:58 |
| fenn | how much does it cost to run an autonomous robot? | 11:58 |
| ThomasEgi | the money to build and maintain it. | 11:58 |
| fenn | ok whatever i'm not doing this argument again | 11:59 |
| ThomasEgi | i'd love to build my own ground effect vehicle tho. | 12:01 |
| fenn | you mean like those weird russian sea planes? or just a hovercraft | 12:01 |
| ThomasEgi | exactly those weird russian sea planes | 12:02 |
| ThomasEgi | they do work very well over ground too. | 12:02 |
| ThomasEgi | the low altitude increads gliding capability and reduces drag a lot. | 12:02 |
| ThomasEgi | and unlike hovercrafts. you can make big leaps with them. | 12:03 |
| fenn | i swear this is straight out of star wars http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_Q-PuSGjFHvY/SJqUUMyFEHI/AAAAAAAABOs/3iWR1huuCPo/s640/dimage.jpg | 12:04 |
| fenn | oh it's missing the wings | 12:05 |
| fenn | still i'm a fan of any lifting body concept | 12:05 |
| ThomasEgi | had a slightly smaller unit in mind | 12:05 |
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| ThomasEgi | fenn, i don't think it has any wings bigger than what you see on the picture | 12:06 |
| ThomasEgi | if any. just for steering or so | 12:07 |
| ThomasEgi | had something like that in mind http://content.answcdn.com/main/content/img/McGrawHill/Encyclopedia/images/CE017110FG0020.gif | 12:07 |
| fenn | cute | 12:08 |
| ThomasEgi | for like.. 2 person. or 3 and a bit of luggage | 12:09 |
| ThomasEgi | to get you around. | 12:09 |
| ThomasEgi | great thing bout them. they'r fast, economic and very comfy to ride. | 12:09 |
| fenn | what keeps you from running into trees or power lines | 12:09 |
| fenn | actually, how fast does it need to go to fly? | 12:10 |
| ThomasEgi | it doesnt really fly | 12:12 |
| ThomasEgi | it remains just above the ground | 12:12 |
| ThomasEgi | depending on your speed an size of the craft this can be really low. the lower, the more efficient | 12:12 |
| ThomasEgi | so over flat terrain you may "fly" at an altitude of just 1m | 12:12 |
| ThomasEgi | or.. even less | 12:12 |
| ThomasEgi | if you dare | 12:13 |
| ThomasEgi | as for speeds. depends on how you design it. the more wingspan and area , the slower you'll get up. | 12:14 |
| ThomasEgi | but the more limited your top speed. | 12:14 |
| fenn | are there ultralight versions made out of sail cloth? | 12:14 |
| ThomasEgi | i think so | 12:14 |
| ThomasEgi | some people folled around with those. not too many tho | 12:14 |
| fenn | i always wanted a flying bicycle | 12:14 |
| fenn | maybe it's possible if you only fly 1 meter high | 12:15 |
| ThomasEgi | 1 meter is already for rather high speeds. | 12:17 |
| ThomasEgi | if you go bicycle speed.. you probably want to fly at ways lower altitude | 12:17 |
| ThomasEgi | dunno.. maybe.. 20cm or so? | 12:17 |
| fenn | great way to get killed: http://www.abovetopsecret.com/forum/thread714529/pg1 | 12:17 |
| ThomasEgi | hehe. that's quite a bit different^^ | 12:18 |
| ThomasEgi | guess you could try to snap on some wings to your bicycle made from styrofoam or so | 12:19 |
| ThomasEgi | havent tried myself. but then. for such low speeds , rolling is probably still more efficient than hovering | 12:19 |
| ThomasEgi | would be one cool experiment tho. | 12:19 |
| ThomasEgi | should eat a lot les power than human powered free flight | 12:19 |
| ThomasEgi | like.. http://lonniemorse.files.wordpress.com/2010/07/apex8.jpg thin thing with ground effect wings... i'd testride it. | 12:31 |
| fenn | you sir have a good sense of taste | 12:33 |
| fenn | "They also banned the recumbent bicycle in 1934 because of winning most races." | 12:36 |
| fenn | just like F1 and turbine engines | 12:36 |
| fenn | why are people addicted to tradition | 12:36 |
| ThomasEgi | well banning them from races makes sense. | 12:36 |
| ThomasEgi | to keep up an actual competition | 12:36 |
| ThomasEgi | but.. it's totaly strange they arent more popular on the road | 12:37 |
| ThomasEgi | sure in a city they are not the no1 choice. | 12:37 |
| ThomasEgi | but for bicycle-travels they have undenyable benefits | 12:37 |
| fenn | i've never ridden one | 12:37 |
| ThomasEgi | i build one myself from wood :D | 12:37 |
| ThomasEgi | and.. even that one was awesome | 12:37 |
| ThomasEgi | i have a real one on my "to build" list | 12:38 |
| ThomasEgi | rode a simmilar vehicle tho. for 2 people. | 12:38 |
| ThomasEgi | http://twike.com/ | 12:38 |
| bkero | what an awful thing | 12:39 |
| ThomasEgi | that position , i mean you have an actual seat you can press yourself into when hitting the pedals. that's a great thing | 12:39 |
| ThomasEgi | you can travel for ages and you butt will never start to hurt a bit | 12:39 |
| fenn | too bad PVC has such low rigidity, otherwise it'd be super easy to build alternative bike frames | 12:39 |
| bkero | fenn: Good news: you can still braze bike frames | 12:39 |
| ThomasEgi | there are cardboard bige frames. | 12:40 |
| bkero | Additionally you can fiberglass the, just have to reinforce the right parts | 12:40 |
| bkero | ThomasEgi: link to an actual cardboard frame I can buy for < $400? | 12:40 |
| ThomasEgi | http://www.fastcodesign.com/1670753/this-9-cardboard-bike-can-support-riders-up-to-485lbs | 12:40 |
| ThomasEgi | i'll take the other 391 bucks | 12:40 |
| ThomasEgi | thx | 12:40 |
| fenn | MIT media lab had a decent one made on their laser cutter | 12:40 |
| fenn | i'm skeptical of the $9 claim | 12:41 |
| bkero | ThomasEgi: "that I can buy" | 12:41 |
| fenn | twike has the wheels on the wrong end :P | 12:42 |
| ThomasEgi | hehe. true the twike looks a bit ugly. | 12:42 |
| ThomasEgi | but rather fun to ride. | 12:42 |
| ThomasEgi | the 2wheels in the front bikes are the real deal. | 12:43 |
| ThomasEgi | low center of mass. 3 wheels.. that thing glues on the road even in extreme curves. | 12:43 |
| fenn | you'd think it would be obvious but people keep making things with one wheel in front and two in back | 12:44 |
| fenn | and pointy noses | 12:44 |
| fenn | what, is it supersonic now? | 12:44 |
| ThomasEgi | :D | 12:45 |
| ThomasEgi | people have no idea. most are morons. | 12:45 |
| fenn | at least add some speed holes and call it a wedge of swiss cheese | 12:45 |
| ThomasEgi | they look at it and they go like "eew never going to ride that" instead they should just stfu and take a seat and find out why it was designed that way | 12:45 |
| ThomasEgi | bkero, production of said cardboard cycles is planned for 2013 | 12:46 |
| bkero | ThomasEgi: yup, hope I can buy it sometime ever | 12:47 |
| bkero | A thousand things could happen between now and then | 12:47 |
| ThomasEgi | if not.. it's just cardboard. you can probably ask for instructions to build one yourself | 12:47 |
| fenn | seems like it was pretty involved | 12:47 |
| bkero | Try that and see what the response is :P | 12:47 |
| fenn | also it contains a bunch of non cardboard parts | 12:47 |
| fenn | better to just build your own and document it | 12:48 |
| fenn | publish the documentation under gfdl or cc-sa | 12:48 |
| ThomasEgi | shouldnt be too hard. most of those parts can be bought for a reasonable price. | 12:48 |
| ThomasEgi | building a pvc bike should be rather easy,too. | 12:48 |
| fenn | yeah but not under $9 per bike | 12:48 |
| fenn | it's hard to triangulate pvc joints | 12:48 |
| bkero | ThomasEgi: pvc isn't strong enough at the joints | 12:49 |
| ThomasEgi | only a matter of doing it right | 12:49 |
| ThomasEgi | of course you can't go with a design that's optimized for steel and aluminum. | 12:49 |
| ThomasEgi | but that doesn't mean it is impossible | 12:49 |
| ThomasEgi | i mean people build hanggliders from pvc tubes.too | 12:49 |
| * fenn mumbles something about ferrocement | 12:49 | |
| bkero | Nope, but will it be possible to make in a usable form factor? | 12:49 |
| ThomasEgi | sure | 12:50 |
| ThomasEgi | i see no reason why | 12:50 |
| fenn | again, problem with pvc is rigidity | 12:50 |
| ThomasEgi | i mean pvc is not "that" weak | 12:50 |
| fenn | engineers once built a titanium motorcycle, looked great on paper but it rode like a bowl of jello | 12:51 |
| ThomasEgi | you need bigger tube diameters but aside from that, there is not much fundamental change | 12:51 |
| ThomasEgi | hehe bicycles are a lot less problematic than motorcycles | 12:51 |
| fenn | i guess you could just wrap fiberglass tape around the pvc and be done with it | 12:51 |
| fenn | i did that with a pumpkin trebuchet | 12:52 |
| ThomasEgi | hehe. that sure works. using the pvc as positive and use the fibreglass to do the actual structure | 12:53 |
| ThomasEgi | but then. i have no doubt it'd work without any reinforcements,too. given propper tube diameter and wall thickness. | 12:57 |
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| nmz787 | http://www.ks.uiuc.edu/Research/aquaporins/waterpermeation.mpg | 13:48 |
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| nmz787 | so I was thinking if I have access to a FIB, is nanofluidics what I should really be thinking about instead of microfluidics | 13:49 |
| nmz787 | but apparently there are no google scholar entries for nanofluidic DNA synthesizer | 13:49 |
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| jrayhawk | ls -atlr | 14:03 |
| jrayhawk | whoops | 14:03 |
| brownies | -t? -r?! | 14:07 |
| brownies | what are these strange and exciting flags | 14:07 |
| brownies | whoa. fascinating. | 14:07 |
| fenn | last modified | 14:10 |
| fenn | closely followed by du -a | sort -n | 14:11 |
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| fenn | wish they would have a 360 panorama of inside the vehicle, wtf http://pterovelo.com/ | 14:33 |
| fenn | also it could use a kite or something, for visibility | 14:33 |
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| kanzure | how do i replace the break pads on a 1991 chev sprint? | 15:53 |
| thoughtcrime | take the wheel off | 15:53 |
| thoughtcrime | remove the bolts that hold the caliper in place | 15:54 |
| thoughtcrime | remove the old pads | 15:54 |
| thoughtcrime | loosen the bleeder nipple and use a cclamp to compress the piston | 15:55 |
| thoughtcrime | then tighten the nipple to air does not suck into the hydrolic system | 15:55 |
| thoughtcrime | install new pads and replace caliper | 15:55 |
| thoughtcrime | put wheel back on | 15:55 |
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| nmz787 | you dont have to loosen the bleeder nipple | 16:14 |
| nmz787 | just close the c clamp slowly | 16:14 |
| thoughtcrime | oh! | 16:15 |
| thoughtcrime | what if you never loosened the cap at the master cylinder | 16:16 |
| thoughtcrime | wouldnt the pressure just return the piston into place? | 16:16 |
| nmz787 | the master cylinder usually just has a rubber gasket with a plastic cover with tabs keeping it shut | 16:17 |
| nmz787 | so pressure will just vent | 16:17 |
| nmz787 | and the reservoir will get a few microns higher | 16:17 |
| nmz787 | or maybe a few hundred microns | 16:17 |
| thoughtcrime | its better to not open the bleeder nipple anyway | 16:18 |
| thoughtcrime | if you dont have to | 16:18 |
| thoughtcrime | 4def | 16:18 |
| nmz787 | maybe on ABS systems it is better to loosen caliper bleeder, but not on a 1991 | 16:18 |
| nmz787 | that thing dont have ABS | 16:18 |
| nmz787 | :D | 16:19 |
| thoughtcrime | mmm | 16:19 |
| ParahSailin | fenn: re that thermophotovoltaic, exactly, 13 hp in a huge volume, mass | 16:19 |
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| fenn | good idea to change the fluid when changing pads though | 16:38 |
| fenn | ParahSailin: i dont see why it's a huge volume.. it's about the same size as an equivalent power four stroke engine, and it's a research prototype | 16:39 |
| ParahSailin | an equivalent 13 hp motor i could lift with one hand | 16:40 |
| fenn | the TPV heat cans are mostly empty space.. i'd be surprised if it even weighed 50 pounds | 16:41 |
| fenn | anyway, it's also an electrical generator, so comparison to just an engine is unfair | 16:42 |
| fenn | a 10kW generator weighs 300lbs | 16:43 |
| ParahSailin | you asked why do we still have moving parts; i answered | 16:43 |
| ParahSailin | heat engines are very power-dense | 16:43 |
| fenn | i'm not convinced | 16:44 |
| fenn | i will send them an email and see if they know how much it weighed | 16:45 |
| fenn | also a more reasonable comparison is stirling engines, since they use the same low grade heat | 16:47 |
| jrayhawk | nmz787: backwashing rubber-contaminated brake fluid into the master cylinder is not desirable; brake changes are an excellent time to put fresh fluid in the system. also, you risk overflowing the reservoir and fucking up your paint. | 16:47 |
| jrayhawk | well, maybe not *your* paint. ha ha you are from the east coast. | 16:48 |
| thoughtcrime | moving parts? | 16:48 |
| thoughtcrime | what about absolute zero | 16:48 |
| ParahSailin | im willing to bet you 10 oz au that there will not be a more power dense method of generating electricity (excluding any device with a nuclear energy source) than a heat engine developed in the next 10 years | 16:48 |
| thoughtcrime | its really hard to get thigns to stop moving | 16:48 |
| ParahSailin | im negotiable on duration, and the wager | 16:48 |
| fenn | why excluding nuclear energy sources? the whole reason i'm interested in heat to electricity is based on nuclear reactors anyway | 16:50 |
| ParahSailin | btw 1700 K is not my idea of low grade heat | 16:51 |
| fenn | do you think betavoltaic batteries are somehow exempt? | 16:51 |
| ParahSailin | yes, im trying to avoid loopholes like that or focus fusion | 16:51 |
| fenn | why is it a loophole? | 16:52 |
| ParahSailin | because i believe it is physically possible for plasma fusion to produce direct electric current at extreme power density | 16:52 |
| ParahSailin | no other reason | 16:52 |
| fenn | so i'm confused what you're saying now, in general | 16:53 |
| jrayhawk | screw you guys i am putting a NERVA rocket on the back of my car | 16:54 |
| ParahSailin | i would not be willing to bet against the development of a fusion reactor with direct production of electric current | 16:54 |
| ParahSailin | i would be willing to bet against pretty much anything else short of that matching the power density of a modern heat engine | 16:54 |
| fenn | "there will be no more energy dense method of electricity developed EXCEPT a fusion reactor with direct production of electric current" is a pretty specific model of the unknown | 16:54 |
| fenn | jrayhawk: gas core would be so much more environmentally friendly | 16:55 |
| jrayhawk | irradiation will turn me into the hulk, right | 16:56 |
| ParahSailin | ok, you can change the no nuclear clause to "nuclear only if it acts as a generic heat source for a heat to electricity generator" | 16:56 |
| fenn | yeah, havent you heard of hormesis? | 16:56 |
| jrayhawk | haha | 16:56 |
| jrayhawk | that which does not kill me turns me into the hulk | 16:56 |
| fenn | is there an equivalent thorium gas core rocket? | 16:57 |
| ParahSailin | well are we talking about electrical generation or any sort of "useful work" | 16:58 |
| fenn | oh i was just curious | 16:58 |
| fenn | i'm sure there's some MHD way to generate electricity with rockets | 16:59 |
| fenn | basically "lord kelvin's thunderstorm" on a grand scale | 16:59 |
| thoughtcrime | how about a sterling engine | 16:59 |
| thoughtcrime | then you can get power from all the things | 16:59 |
| fenn | how about maxwell's demon | 16:59 |
| fenn | then you can get power from the fires of hell | 17:00 |
| thoughtcrime | how about this dick, adults are talking | 17:00 |
| fenn | i don't see any adults | 17:00 |
| fenn | wait a minute, the cold war is over? | 17:01 |
| fenn | when did that happen? everybody just forgot! | 17:01 |
| jrayhawk | the soviet union collapsed | 17:01 |
| fenn | nooooooooo... | 17:01 |
| fenn | how am i going to instantiate my experimental villages of perversion now? | 17:02 |
| jrayhawk | don't worry, it's not like military spending has gotten significantly lower | 17:02 |
| fenn | now it's all boring stuff though.. albuquerque is undergoing a major economic crisis because all the high tech companies that ran on cold war research funding have gone under | 17:04 |
| jrayhawk | although now we assume unilateral warfare rather than military brinksmanship | 17:04 |
| fenn | they just keep building hummers and blowing them up with bombs made of trash | 17:04 |
| fenn | can't they make a bomb-proof hummer? | 17:04 |
| ParahSailin | but i hear abq is a blue meth boom town | 17:04 |
| fenn | what is "blue meth"? | 17:04 |
| ParahSailin | heisenberg's meth | 17:05 |
| jrayhawk | i wish we still did above-ground nuclear tests. i would've liked to have seen one of those. | 17:05 |
| jrayhawk | now all we have to show for them is vegas | 17:05 |
| fenn | don't worry my dear, soon we'll have clean hafnium triggered fusion bombs | 17:06 |
| jrayhawk | hooray | 17:06 |
| fenn | it's just been covered up, stimulated gamma emission is real i tell you | 17:06 |
| strangewarp | I'll stimulate YOUR gamma emission | 17:07 |
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| fenn | please excuse this interruption http://img1.ak.crunchyroll.com/i/spire2/83c9c896daec7dbf4f29e01d1c30a5121233456000_full.jpg | 17:11 |
| fenn | "It was nothing more than one of the local meth cooks taking a great deal of pride in his purity," Gibson says. "He ground up blue chalk to color it so he could market it as his." | 17:13 |
| fenn | great, make ultra-pure meth and then add chalk to it so you know it's pure? | 17:13 |
| fenn | i still don't know what blue meth is | 17:13 |
| fenn | seems to be something required by television | 17:13 |
| jrayhawk | huh, that hafnium bomb thing is interesting | 17:14 |
| fenn | oh i see, it's being sold in _fictional_ albuquerque, not actually being sold in albuquerque | 17:14 |
| fenn | jrayhawk: makes a nice battery too, if you can figure out the solid state heat conversion thing | 17:15 |
| fenn | i'm still sorta iffy on where exactly these metastable nuclear isomers come from | 17:16 |
| fenn | "Metastable Helium atoms are produced by an electric discharge in a small volume of helium gas in its ground state." | 17:16 |
| fenn | how the hell does that cause a nuclear reaction? | 17:17 |
| fenn | maybe metastable helium isn't a nuclear isomer.. duh | 17:18 |
| fenn | gah, congress is trying to get rid of their helium stockpile | 17:21 |
| fenn | "in 1996, the US passed the Helium Privatisation Act which directed that this reserve should be sold by 2015 at a price that would substantially pay off the federal government's original investment in building up the reserve." | 17:24 |
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| jrayhawk | "substantially pay off"? I thought we were running out of helium and the price was going crazy...? | 17:38 |
| fenn | i dont get what investment they're talking about | 17:39 |
| fenn | it's sitting in an abandoned oil well, how is that costing anything | 17:39 |
| fenn | the evo-R velomobile is pretty cool but $10k is a bit steep http://www.flickr.com/photos/janbeeldrijk/5698358647/in/pool-555784@N20|janbeeldrijk | 17:45 |
| fenn | er, $13k | 17:45 |
| fenn | think i like the white one better http://tube.7s-b.com/go-one+evolution/ | 17:46 |
| jrayhawk | if you're already not caring about safety, low-displacement motorcycles and scooters get 85-105 MPG and are quite cheap to buy and maintain | 17:58 |
| fenn | i'm doing it for the hotness | 18:00 |
| fenn | besides, the bike is perfectly safe, it's those damn death monsters that kill people | 18:01 |
| thoughtcrime | as long as it does 120kph up hill with 400lbs of cargo | 18:01 |
| thoughtcrime | and a 400 mile range | 18:02 |
| fenn | with my genetically engineered freak legs it should be no problem | 18:02 |
| fenn | with a little boost from on board cold fusion power plant where necessary | 18:03 |
| ThomasEgi | MPG is not the problem. the slower you go, the further you get | 18:04 |
| fenn | btw i used to ride a honda ascot/VT500, basically a light sport bike. it got 50mpg, i guess they've improved in the last 25 years | 18:04 |
| ThomasEgi | bout 20 to 25km/h are a very good speed for traveling insane distances | 18:04 |
| ThomasEgi | at that speed. you can get hundrets of km on an electric bike with couple of lithium batteries. | 18:05 |
| ThomasEgi | or. to be more precise. you can drive longer on one charge than you can stay awake steering the vehicle | 18:05 |
| fenn | how many amp hours is "a couple"? | 18:05 |
| ThomasEgi | depends | 18:06 |
| ThomasEgi | on how far you wanna go. | 18:06 |
| fenn | anyway solar panels aren't that expensive | 18:06 |
| ThomasEgi | true | 18:06 |
| fenn | if you know where to get them | 18:06 |
| ThomasEgi | but you still need quite a bit of them. | 18:06 |
| ThomasEgi | i'd be all in favor to get some tho. | 18:06 |
| fenn | i got some broken cells on ebay for $15/250g, we'll see how that turns out | 18:06 |
| ThomasEgi | solar powered recumbant bicycle with an small trailer for the solar panels and batteries. | 18:07 |
| ThomasEgi | >100km range with li-batteries on a bicycle or light electric scooter is totaly doable | 18:08 |
| ThomasEgi | upfront costs are a bit high, but if you use it a lot it pays of rather fast | 18:08 |
| ParahSailin | broken pv cells? | 18:08 |
| fenn | i guess they still hand-assemble solar panels, and some get broken in the process | 18:09 |
| fenn | they still work though, they're just not rectangular anymore | 18:09 |
| fenn | or not uniformly sized rectangles at least | 18:09 |
| fenn | i need to figure out how to encapsulate them | 18:10 |
| fenn | and supposedly you need some special soldering flux | 18:10 |
| fenn | heat shrink EVA is probably what i'll do | 18:11 |
| fenn | anyway not a lot of use for them now that i'm not living in the desert | 18:11 |
| fenn | so solar powered recumbent it is | 18:11 |
| ThomasEgi | never hurts to have them assembled in a ready to use panel tho | 18:12 |
| fenn | if the panel is flat that's hard to integrate into a curved fairing | 18:12 |
| ThomasEgi | just gave it a quick run. 100km range on a recumbent bike, with 250Watt power (that means no pedaling at all) should get you bit more than 32km/h. | 18:12 |
| ThomasEgi | so for 100km you only neet power for running 3 hours at full power. makes 750Wh | 18:13 |
| fenn | ok so i "only" need 80 18650 li-ion batteries | 18:14 |
| ThomasEgi | or 3 blocks | 18:15 |
| ThomasEgi | these days and ages. companies sell ready to use lead-acid replacement | 18:15 |
| fenn | how much do those cost? | 18:16 |
| ThomasEgi | comes with integrated charging and protection circuits. | 18:16 |
| fenn | advances in battery technology over the last 3 years means i only need 50 batteries now | 18:17 |
| ThomasEgi | as i said. with 3 of those big blocks that should work. | 18:17 |
| fenn | at 2 for $3.15 that's only $80 | 18:17 |
| fenn | i heard A123 went bankrupt | 18:18 |
| ThomasEgi | hm.. those big blocks go for bout 1euro16 cent per Wh | 18:18 |
| fenn | that sounds like a lot | 18:18 |
| ThomasEgi | it is | 18:18 |
| ThomasEgi | but it comes with a lot of convenience. and good cycle stability | 18:18 |
| ThomasEgi | as it is intended as 1:1 lead acid replacement | 18:19 |
| ThomasEgi | wide temperature range. and integrated circuits | 18:19 |
| ThomasEgi | you can charge it with any common lead battery charger | 18:19 |
| fenn | well, whatever, i'm not scared of electronics | 18:19 |
| ThomasEgi | effort sums up quite a lot for so many small batteries tho. | 18:19 |
| fenn | i prefer the small cylinder because they can be hidden in the structure | 18:20 |
| fenn | and super cheap and light.. | 18:20 |
| ThomasEgi | with the big blocks. the batteries would cost 1080 euros. would get you going just over 100km range on a signle charge | 18:21 |
| fenn | why should i pay someone to put it in a box for me? i don't even want a box | 18:21 |
| ThomasEgi | 12kg battery weight in total | 18:21 |
| fenn | with individual cells it would cost $78 | 18:21 |
| ThomasEgi | you sure? | 18:21 |
| ThomasEgi | 80 sounds ways too cheap | 18:21 |
| ThomasEgi | that would be 1Wh for not even 9 ¢ | 18:22 |
| fenn | a few extra parentheses never hurt: (3.15USD/2)*(750W*hr)/(3.7V*3800mA*hr) = 84.014936 US$ | 18:23 |
| bkero | I go with zippy lipos, my bike gets about 100km range with 23Ah | 18:23 |
| fenn | looking at http://www.ebay.com/itm/2x-18650-UltraFire-Li-ion-3800mAh-3-7V-Rechargeable-Battery-Blue-for-LED-Torch-/130737270524 | 18:23 |
| ThomasEgi | brownies, i calculated with no-leg-work at all. | 18:23 |
| fenn | assuming their specs are correct, but this is just a napkin calculation anyway | 18:24 |
| ThomasEgi | at 30km/h speed | 18:24 |
| brownies | what? | 18:24 |
| fenn | nick collision | 18:24 |
| ParahSailin | muscles actually do have power density that approach that of heat engines | 18:24 |
| ThomasEgi | sry brownies . i wanted to reply to bkero | 18:24 |
| bkero | ThomasEgi: 30km easy, my bike goes 60kph | 18:24 |
| ThomasEgi | brownies, what voltage does your battery come with? | 18:25 |
| * brownies smacks ThomasEgi | 18:25 | |
| ThomasEgi | aaah darn | 18:25 |
| ThomasEgi | bkero, | 18:25 |
| ThomasEgi | sry brownies | 18:25 |
| bkero | ThomasEgi: 14s4p lipo | 18:25 |
| ThomasEgi | bk so you get 14*3.7V ? | 18:25 |
| bkero | yes | 18:26 |
| ThomasEgi | bkero, that's 1100Wh | 18:27 |
| ThomasEgi | even more than the 750Wh i calculated as neccessary | 18:27 |
| ThomasEgi | how much did you pay for your batteries? | 18:28 |
| bkero | 1191.4 | 18:28 |
| bkero | I think the batteries were ~$65 each | 18:28 |
| bkero | 8 of them | 18:28 |
| fenn | i calculate 750Wh those 18650 cells would weigh 2.33kg | 18:29 |
| ThomasEgi | fenn, then their numbers lie. | 18:29 |
| fenn | how do you figure? | 18:29 |
| ThomasEgi | gravimetric energy density | 18:30 |
| fenn | aside from a complicated data logging setup, how do i measure the actual capacity? | 18:30 |
| bkero | 18650 cells have discharge problems, they just can't discharge fast enough. | 18:30 |
| bkero | Look at their C rate. | 18:30 |
| ThomasEgi | fenn, no way around other than logging the discharge parameters | 18:30 |
| fenn | what kind of word is "gravimetric" anyway | 18:31 |
| ThomasEgi | fenn, i mean.. those cells would be at the very top theoretical limit of what's possible for a lithium ion battery | 18:31 |
| ThomasEgi | but ... i doubt they'd sell them for such a low price | 18:31 |
| ThomasEgi | besides.. li-ion has horrible self discharge | 18:32 |
| ThomasEgi | more up to 30% per month | 18:32 |
| ThomasEgi | average price for such cells is somewhere around 30 cent /Wh | 18:33 |
| fenn | wp says 0.72MJ/kg which is 15% more than the battery i just weighed | 18:33 |
| ThomasEgi | the ebay article you linked is 3 times cheaper. | 18:33 |
| fenn | oop, 15% less | 18:33 |
| ThomasEgi | you have those batteries? | 18:33 |
| fenn | hm no i have a different battery, sorry | 18:33 |
| fenn | i'm muddying the issue now :( | 18:33 |
| ThomasEgi | mhm. if there's one thing i learned.. never trust chinese numbers | 18:33 |
| ThomasEgi | i mean sure those batteries are a lot cheaper than those big blocks. | 18:34 |
| fenn | you think they lie by an order of magnitude though? | 18:34 |
| ThomasEgi | but .. they probably are of low quality at that price. and you have to monitor each individual cell for faliure. which is a lot of circuits. | 18:34 |
| ThomasEgi | yeah | 18:34 |
| ThomasEgi | my maximum lie level i experienced was.. they advertised twice as much performance as they delivered | 18:35 |
| fenn | well it's still 5 times cheaper | 18:35 |
| ThomasEgi | my guess is, their actual charge is more like 2300 to 2600 mAh or so | 18:36 |
| ThomasEgi | also. you need to calculate that over the lifetime of the battery cycle use | 18:36 |
| ThomasEgi | some are losing capacity after just a couple hundret cycles. | 18:37 |
| ThomasEgi | the big block has a rated lifetime of over 2000 cycles at 100% discharge | 18:37 |
| fenn | random alibaba page says the 3800 mAh batteries weigh 72g, not 43g | 18:37 |
| ThomasEgi | they are usualy a bit bigger ,too. | 18:38 |
| fenn | which is within the gravimetric energy density | 18:38 |
| fenn | yeah i read the diameter can vary by 1mm or more | 18:38 |
| ThomasEgi | that's why i immediately got this "uh-oh, something aint right here" alert. | 18:38 |
| fenn | i'm also interested in nickel iron batteries, but nobody makes them anymore | 18:39 |
| ThomasEgi | mhm.. yeah. not so great gravimetrical energy density tho | 18:39 |
| fenn | supposedly these also have terrible discharge characteristics | 18:39 |
| ThomasEgi | those big battery blocks are made by a company named Vision. it's lithium iron | 18:40 |
| ThomasEgi | the shop i found them at tends to be rather expensive. | 18:40 |
| fenn | motorcycle battery? | 18:40 |
| ThomasEgi | maybe there'sa cheaper source | 18:40 |
| fenn | does it mean they're for starting motorcycle engines? | 18:40 |
| ThomasEgi | not sure. it seems like a general purpose lead-acid replacement | 18:40 |
| ThomasEgi | they do have high current rating | 18:41 |
| ThomasEgi | 10C discharge continuously.. 20C discharge pulse | 18:41 |
| ThomasEgi | would very well work for starting motorcycle engines | 18:41 |
| ThomasEgi | -30 to +60°C temperature range | 18:41 |
| fenn | yeah lithium iron phosphate has good discharge rate | 18:43 |
| ThomasEgi | found them at another store. same price tho | 18:43 |
| bkero | Discharge on my lipo batteries is 35c :) | 18:43 |
| bkero | 25c continual I guess. These guys: http://www.hobbyking.com/hobbyking/store/__21384__ZIPPY_Compact_5800mAh_7S_25C_Lipo_Pack.html | 18:43 |
| ThomasEgi | hm.. if we lower the speed to from 33km/h to 28km/h ... range increases quite a bit. to 54km/big battery block. | 18:44 |
| ThomasEgi | or.. from 100 to bout 150 km given the above numbers | 18:44 |
| fenn | okay cheapest li-fe-p batteries on ebay are about 3x the cost of li-ion in terms of energy density | 18:46 |
| fenn | i wonder if some sort of hybrid battery system would be feasible | 18:46 |
| bkero | fenn: some reason the ones I linked wouldn't work? | 18:46 |
| fenn | about the same, a little more | 18:47 |
| fenn | sure they would work | 18:47 |
| fenn | those are li-poly | 18:47 |
| ThomasEgi | bkero, no cycle life given, no propper datasheet, no temperature range given. | 18:47 |
| ThomasEgi | bit less than half the price of the li-fe | 18:50 |
| fenn | estimating i could get 500W out of 50 18650's | 18:50 |
| ThomasEgi | that's with the cells only. no charging circuit. no balancing, no monitoring. | 18:51 |
| fenn | right | 18:51 |
| fenn | something i discovered recently | 18:52 |
| fenn | these li-ion cells i have now have been sitting in a hot warehouse for 3 years, and they were fully charged when i measured them | 18:53 |
| bkero | ThomasEgi: They moved my ass to work 6 miles today in 3c :) | 18:53 |
| fenn | " According to one manufacturer, lithium-ion cells (and, accordingly, "dumb" lithium-ion batteries) do not have any self-discharge in the usual meaning of this word.[35] What looks like a self-discharge in these batteries is a permanent loss of capacity" | 18:53 |
| ThomasEgi | hot and lithium doesnt sound like a good combination | 18:55 |
| ThomasEgi | they work for ages if they are kept at moderate temperatures and are charged from time to time | 18:55 |
| fenn | well, hot in this case is 35C | 18:57 |
| ThomasEgi | i'd spend those few extra bucks on the big blocks. just to have an easy interface, and proper protection of the cells, rated lifetime and temperature range | 18:57 |
| fenn | i'm using the 18650 in a wearable computer, which is a large part of why i'm considering them for other stuff | 18:57 |
| fenn | sort of tired of the battery menagerie | 18:58 |
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| fenn | also i don't like large packs because if one cell goes bad you have to hack it apart to replace it | 18:59 |
| fenn | i have a sealed lead acid that's now useless because it sat discharged for too long | 18:59 |
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| fenn | presumably one cell reversed and that's preventing it from taking up a charge | 19:00 |
| fenn | heh they make li-ion chainsaws now | 19:01 |
| fenn | oh it's a hedge trimmer | 19:01 |
| ThomasEgi | makes sense.. | 19:02 |
| ThomasEgi | gasoline chainsaws are rather heavy. tiring to work with them all day | 19:02 |
| ThomasEgi | and they suffer horrible vibration | 19:02 |
| fenn | they also use a lot of power and are often used far from any electrical grid | 19:03 |
| ThomasEgi | but then.. i havent tested zeolite out yet:) i still have that low-pressure-motor in mind. | 19:03 |
| fenn | i eagerly await the results of your experiment | 19:03 |
| ThomasEgi | still havent received the zeolite yet | 19:03 |
| fenn | theoretically it can absorb 20% of its mass in water, but the vapor pressure of room temperature water is not that high | 19:04 |
| fenn | 2.8kPa | 19:05 |
| fenn | 0.2kg of water vapor yields 696J at room temperature | 19:06 |
| ThomasEgi | for a desert that looks a lot higher already | 19:06 |
| ThomasEgi | can't be.. sould be ways more | 19:06 |
| fenn | units 2.8kPa*22.4l/18g*0.2kg J | 19:07 |
| fenn | does that look right? | 19:07 |
| ThomasEgi | did you calculate that down with actual Pa and kg values? | 19:08 |
| ThomasEgi | ironing out the g and kPa? | 19:08 |
| fenn | i just plugged it into "units" like that | 19:09 |
| fenn | i can't be arsed to do arithmetic :) | 19:09 |
| fenn | blegh.. thanks for nothing wolfram | 19:11 |
| ThomasEgi | i get 31hPa for 25°C | 19:12 |
| ThomasEgi | 23hPa for 20°C | 19:12 |
| fenn | same thing | 19:12 |
| fenn | who uses "hecto" really | 19:13 |
| ThomasEgi | those who want an easy way to convert to BAR | 19:13 |
| fenn | oh hPa is mbar | 19:14 |
| ThomasEgi | bingbingbing | 19:15 |
| ThomasEgi | so.. water vapor is bout 10% heavier than regular air. means it weights bout 1.1kg per m³ (rough numbers only) at 1000hPa | 19:15 |
| ThomasEgi | means with 1.1kg we get bout 43m³ of vapor at 25hPa | 19:16 |
| * fenn grumbles something about stone force per kilderkin furlong | 19:17 | |
| ThomasEgi | since Pa is N/m². we get ... | 19:17 |
| ParahSailin | water is heavier than air? | 19:17 |
| ThomasEgi | 2500N * 43M | 19:17 |
| ParahSailin | isnt air like 70 % nitrogen, 20 % oxygen? | 19:18 |
| fenn | wp says 0.8g/ml | 19:18 |
| ThomasEgi | bit more than 100kJ per kg water | 19:18 |
| fenn | oops 0.8g/l | 19:18 |
| ThomasEgi | ParahSailin, yeah. both are lighter than water. slightly. | 19:18 |
| ParahSailin | how much argon is in air | 19:18 |
| ThomasEgi | vater vapor | 19:18 |
| ThomasEgi | so.. roughly. bout 20kJ per kg zeolite | 19:19 |
| fenn | and air is 1.2 ish g/l so it seems water is lighter | 19:19 |
| ParahSailin | N2 is 15*2, O2 is 16*2, water is 16+2? | 19:19 |
| ParahSailin | am i missing something? | 19:19 |
| fenn | no you're right ParahSailin | 19:19 |
| ThomasEgi | what. 16*2 | 19:19 |
| ThomasEgi | ... darn | 19:19 |
| ThomasEgi | sry. .it's 4am for me | 19:19 |
| ThomasEgi | must've missed that one | 19:19 |
| ThomasEgi | of course you'r right | 19:20 |
| ThomasEgi | so.. you need half as much water, to fill the same room of air? | 19:20 |
| ThomasEgi | same room of nothing^ | 19:20 |
| ThomasEgi | which would double the output? | 19:20 |
| fenn | anyway, 25mbar, and 0.8kg/m^3 means .. um.. 3.125 J/kg | 19:22 |
| fenn | gah 3.125 kJ/kg | 19:22 |
| ThomasEgi | wait.. how do you get on 0.8kg/m³?? | 19:23 |
| fenn | http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Water_vapor#Water_vapor_and_dry_air_density_calculations_at_0_.C2.B0C | 19:23 |
| ThomasEgi | we don't have air in there. | 19:23 |
| ThomasEgi | it's water only | 19:23 |
| fenn | "The density (mass/volume) of water vapor is 0.804 g/litre, which is significantly less than that of dry air at 1.27 g/liter at STP" | 19:23 |
| fenn | i dont see what air has to do with anything | 19:24 |
| fenn | there's no air in the system anywhere | 19:24 |
| ThomasEgi | but that assumes standard temperature and pressure? | 19:25 |
| fenn | that's 0C.. i'm sure it's a little bit lower density at higher temperatures but not by much | 19:25 |
| ThomasEgi | .8g/l would mean it's 800g/m³ | 19:26 |
| fenn | yes | 19:26 |
| fenn | ever tried to build an airship? | 19:26 |
| fenn | hyperphysics weighs in, so to speak: http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase/kinetic/watvap.html | 19:27 |
| ThomasEgi | no but... 800g/m³ for the water alone?? | 19:27 |
| ThomasEgi | the entire air is only slightly heaver. | 19:28 |
| ThomasEgi | and given the mollier diagramm , air can only hold 15g of watervapor /m³ at 20°C ? | 19:28 |
| fenn | i'm sort of confused | 19:28 |
| ThomasEgi | something doesn'- match here. and i'd say there's no way to stuff 800g of water into 1m³ of space at room temperature by letting it vaporize. | 19:29 |
| * fenn looks up dead french guys | 19:29 | |
| ThomasEgi | since partial pressures should add up, i'd go with the 15g/m³ at 23hPa | 19:29 |
| ThomasEgi | which is about 150kJ per kg water. | 19:31 |
| ThomasEgi | or 30kJ per kg zeolite | 19:31 |
| fenn | where does 15g/m^3 come from? | 19:32 |
| ThomasEgi | mollier diagramm | 19:32 |
| ThomasEgi | which makes... a total of about 8Wh/kg | 19:32 |
| ThomasEgi | sorta.. lower than i hoped it would be | 19:32 |
| fenn | why do wikipedia and hyperphysics disagree by 4600%? | 19:33 |
| fenn | i think 800g/m^3 is for 100C, not 0C | 19:34 |
| ThomasEgi | that might very well be | 19:35 |
| ThomasEgi | ... or.. maybe not | 19:35 |
| ThomasEgi | that would mean 1kg of water would fill up just a bit more than 1m³ of air? | 19:36 |
| ThomasEgi | *space | 19:36 |
| fenn | yeah.. hyperphysics says 598g/m^3 at 100C but whatever | 19:36 |
| ThomasEgi | hm.... ok. doesn't sound totaly unrealistic. | 19:36 |
| ThomasEgi | so.. point being. zeolite isn't half as great as i thought it might be. | 19:37 |
| ThomasEgi | but then.. for 1000 bucks you can get a ton | 19:37 |
| ParahSailin | what did you want zeolite for? | 19:37 |
| ThomasEgi | which makes 200 kg of water | 19:37 |
| fenn | ParahSailin: the zeolite is used as a dessicant to condense water out of dry desert air where there is no way to drill a well | 19:38 |
| ThomasEgi | makes 30MJ of energy stored in one ton of zeolite.... | 19:38 |
| fenn | = less than one gallon of gas | 19:38 |
| fenn | but hey it's reusable | 19:38 |
| ParahSailin | oh, what is the partitioning coefficient, adsorbing to zeolite | 19:39 |
| ThomasEgi | that's.. 10 times more energy per money than li-fe battery | 19:39 |
| fenn | that's low pressure pneumatic energy btw | 19:39 |
| ThomasEgi | easy enough to use. | 19:39 |
| fenn | also you need heat exchangers etc | 19:39 |
| ThomasEgi | differential membrane motor. | 19:39 |
| ThomasEgi | and you'r set | 19:39 |
| fenn | unless you meant to boil the water somehow | 19:39 |
| ThomasEgi | well it would be for storing the energy only | 19:40 |
| ThomasEgi | if we do end up with tons of zeolite to mess around with. we might use some of it to store energy for the evening night. | 19:40 |
| ThomasEgi | but then.. lead-acid still beats it | 19:41 |
| ThomasEgi | for stationary buffering. | 19:41 |
| fenn | you have an evacuated water tank.. where's the energy come from? water only contains 4.18j/gC until it freezes | 19:41 |
| fenn | it's a neat idea, but not suitable for powering a bicycle | 19:41 |
| ThomasEgi | yeah. you need to thermically couple it. | 19:41 |
| ThomasEgi | indeed | 19:41 |
| ThomasEgi | guess with li-fe you get quite far. | 19:42 |
| ThomasEgi | wtih some solar panels even more so.. | 19:42 |
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| fenn | or 25GJ/g of nickel in a cold fusion reactor :P | 19:43 |
| fenn | or something like that, nobody has done an accurate measurement | 19:43 |
| ThomasEgi | if you get that running. great thing | 19:44 |
| ThomasEgi | until then. i'll take the battery, solar panel and maybe a wind turbine , depending on the location | 19:45 |
| fenn | btw what is a differential membrane motor? | 19:45 |
| ThomasEgi | something i came up with for that zeolite thing | 19:45 |
| ThomasEgi | a piston-less engine. | 19:46 |
| fenn | like a cuica (brazilian instrument) | 19:46 |
| fenn | herp derp | 19:46 |
| fenn | no good pictures illustrating how it works | 19:46 |
| ThomasEgi | not sure. | 19:47 |
| fenn | anyway, there's a string attached to a membrane, vacuum pulls on the membrane and pulls the string, which does stuff.. | 19:47 |
| ThomasEgi | yeah sorta like that | 19:47 |
| ThomasEgi | but with 2 membrane instead | 19:47 |
| ThomasEgi | working aganist each other. | 19:48 |
| fenn | right | 19:48 |
| ThomasEgi | so.. atmospheric pressure cancels out | 19:48 |
| ThomasEgi | no need for sliding parts or sealing or lubricants or anything | 19:48 |
| ThomasEgi | depends on the membranes lifetime tho. | 19:48 |
| fenn | stainless diaphragm should last forever, if it's below the fatigue limit | 19:48 |
| ThomasEgi | as long as no mega-fatigue kicks in. but yeah. | 19:49 |
| ThomasEgi | but then.. the whole thing is half as brilliant as i hoped for | 19:49 |
| ThomasEgi | at least for mobile use it is out of question | 19:50 |
| fenn | but vapor pressure goes up with water temp | 19:51 |
| fenn | so you can power it with low grade waste heat | 19:51 |
| fenn | maybe even regenerative cycle, since the zeolite heats up when it adsorbs water vapor | 19:52 |
| fenn | it's a little late for me to be doing enthalpy calculations though | 19:52 |
| fenn | isosteric heat of adsorption for the system water−3A zeolite was evaluated ... to be 57.95 kJ/mol. | 19:53 |
| ThomasEgi | hm.. well it might be an idea.. in case someone decides we can have like 10 tons of zeolite too much or so | 19:54 |
| ThomasEgi | 1 mol would be 18 gramm? | 19:54 |
| fenn | so that's 3.2MJ/kg | 19:54 |
| ThomasEgi | a bit off my initial calculation | 19:55 |
| ThomasEgi | but than. that's heat. | 19:55 |
| fenn | that's the other side of the machine | 19:55 |
| fenn | so you just need to have it bite its tail | 19:55 |
| fenn | i'm sure you would have noticed if you had tried to build it :) | 19:55 |
| ThomasEgi | who cares. with a desert sun... we get MJ for free | 19:55 |
| fenn | yeah but portable, you don't necessarily have lots of sun area | 19:56 |
| ThomasEgi | indeed. not an option for portable. | 19:56 |
| ThomasEgi | you'd be better of with a parabol-rin that adjusts to sun while driving | 19:56 |
| fenn | bah | 19:56 |
| ThomasEgi | or photovoltaic cells . | 19:57 |
| ThomasEgi | or just use rockets | 19:57 |
| fenn | or just use gasoline | 19:57 |
| ThomasEgi | btw.. we really should stop spamming. we have a better channel for this | 19:57 |
| ThomasEgi | gasoline.. meeh.. can't we at least something we can re-grow? | 19:57 |
| fenn | hydrogen | 19:57 |
| ThomasEgi | like.. growing alge or so. and burn that? | 19:57 |
| ThomasEgi | gen modified bacteria? | 19:58 |
| ThomasEgi | synthesising hydrogen from water and sunlight? | 19:58 |
| fenn | i like zeolite because it's pure thermal, no energy conversion loss in the regeneration | 19:58 |
| ThomasEgi | yeah. but. still not an option for portable stuff | 19:58 |
| fenn | you can crack water with concentrated solar.. pretty high tech though | 19:58 |
| nmz787 | not hydrogen | 19:58 |
| nmz787 | butanol | 19:58 |
| ThomasEgi | butanol sounds like something that would burn,too. | 19:59 |
| fenn | where's butanol come from? | 19:59 |
| nmz787 | bacterias | 19:59 |
| ThomasEgi | alge? | 19:59 |
| nmz787 | maybe algae | 19:59 |
| ThomasEgi | alge feeding bacteria would be fine,too | 19:59 |
| nmz787 | but butanol can go into gasoline pipelines and engines | 19:59 |
| fenn | oh, thermal depolymerization means you can burn anything really | 19:59 |
| ThomasEgi | there are external-heated engines. whatever makes heat will work | 19:59 |
| fenn | starch, protein, cell membrane | 19:59 |
| fenn | the trick is getting the algae out of the water | 20:00 |
| ThomasEgi | i don't se a problem there | 20:00 |
| yashgaroth | and the water out of the algae | 20:00 |
| fenn | well, they're really small, so they clog up filters | 20:00 |
| ThomasEgi | take a big sheet of cloth, fish it out. press dry, put in the sun on a black surface. | 20:01 |
| * fenn shrugs | 20:01 | |
| yashgaroth | continuous centrifuge | 20:01 |
| ThomasEgi | too much technology^ | 20:01 |
| fenn | i think it makes sense to eat algae, but not to burn it | 20:01 |
| ThomasEgi | uh.. | 20:02 |
| ThomasEgi | that slimy stuff? | 20:02 |
| ThomasEgi | can't imagine it tastes too good | 20:02 |
| fenn | well you have to process it a little, even plain spinach tastes bad | 20:02 |
| yashgaroth | seaweed is damn tasty | 20:02 |
| ThomasEgi | i'd rather feed some other small crabs or so with it | 20:02 |
| ThomasEgi | seaweed is.. weed.. | 20:02 |
| ThomasEgi | but alge is alge. | 20:02 |
| fenn | generally the idea is to get some long chain omega-3 fats into your diet | 20:03 |
| yashgaroth | seaweed is algae | 20:03 |
| ThomasEgi | can't we feed the alge to krill. | 20:03 |
| ThomasEgi | and eat the krill? | 20:03 |
| fenn | so feeding crabs or krill would work | 20:03 |
| ThomasEgi | or feed the krill to bigger things? | 20:03 |
| fenn | you lose some energy with each conversion | 20:03 |
| ThomasEgi | i don't care | 20:03 |
| ThomasEgi | sun shines enough down on earth | 20:04 |
| ThomasEgi | why not use it | 20:04 |
| fenn | krill is not bad though, needs refrigerated though | 20:04 |
| ThomasEgi | i'd rather see how armies of krill eats up the stream of alge poured into their watertank. | 20:04 |
| ThomasEgi | sounds a bit like those life-spheres nasa invented | 20:04 |
| fenn | i think low temperatures select for algae that has the most long chain omega-3 fats | 20:04 |
| ThomasEgi | except adding tons more water and sun and taking out krill | 20:05 |
| fenn | krill need to scrape algae off a surface to eat it | 20:05 |
| nmz787 | ThomasEgi: even farmers use continuous centrifuges to skim off cream | 20:05 |
| fenn | also they're very messy eaters, they leave "spitballs" of dead algae floating around | 20:05 |
| nmz787 | not /too/ much tech | 20:05 |
| yashgaroth | "For mass-consumption and commercially prepared products they must be peeled, because their exoskeleton contains fluorides, which are toxic in high concentrations." | 20:06 |
| yashgaroth | that might just be for wild-caught krill though | 20:06 |
| fenn | so dont give them fluorine | 20:06 |
| ThomasEgi | hm.. what if we feed it to bigger animals | 20:06 |
| ThomasEgi | like fish? | 20:06 |
| ThomasEgi | i'd totaly go for piranhas | 20:06 |
| fenn | how do fish eat algae soup? | 20:06 |
| yashgaroth | via delicious krill | 20:06 |
| ThomasEgi | fish should eat the krill | 20:06 |
| fenn | i know there are some filter feeders like sardines(?) | 20:07 |
| ThomasEgi | hm. never really liked sardines. but then i only met them in cans | 20:07 |
| fenn | but do they eat algae? or some other zooplankton | 20:07 |
| fenn | mackerel is much tastier fwiw | 20:07 |
| fenn | i think mackerel also is a filter feeder | 20:07 |
| ThomasEgi | can't we just gen-mod alge to poop cupcakes? | 20:07 |
| fenn | not really because then you need perfectly sterile cultures | 20:08 |
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| yashgaroth | I'm writing the grant proposal as we speak | 20:08 |
| ThomasEgi | for cupcake pooping alge? | 20:08 |
| fenn | wild algae spores are everywhere | 20:08 |
| fenn | they will outcompete your cupcakes in no time | 20:08 |
| ThomasEgi | yeah.. i have tons of them sitting in my glasses standing on my window | 20:08 |
| ThomasEgi | hm. darn | 20:08 |
| ThomasEgi | make it dominant! | 20:09 |
| ThomasEgi | ... oceans full of cupcakes.. | 20:09 |
| ThomasEgi | ok.. probably not the best idea i ever had. but close to it. | 20:09 |
| fenn | it could work, just moves the work around to a different part of the process | 20:09 |
| nmz787 | why couldn't you just engineer the algae to produce antibiotics but also be reisistant to those drugs... so it would be immune but there'd always be advantage for them | 20:09 |
| fenn | then you have antibiotics in your cupcakes | 20:09 |
| nmz787 | i thought we were burning the things | 20:10 |
| fenn | burn cupcakes?! | 20:10 |
| fenn | what kind of sick... | 20:10 |
| * nmz787 creeps back into the darrkness of cyberspace | 20:10 | |
| fenn | hum.. algae farming for food is definitely a thing to do in the desert | 20:12 |
| ThomasEgi | ... jeez things went totaly fubar | 20:12 |
| ThomasEgi | definetly not wrong | 20:12 |
| ThomasEgi | given you can turn alge into something not only edible but also something i'd rate as food | 20:12 |
| fenn | and you prevent vegans from dying of malnutrition | 20:12 |
| fenn | i liked the idea of high omega-3 algae ice cream | 20:13 |
| ThomasEgi | ice-alge.. | 20:13 |
| fenn | more realistic than cupcakes at least | 20:13 |
| ThomasEgi | somewhat | 20:14 |
| fenn | they used strawberry flavor, apparently it just tastes like strawberry ice cream | 20:14 |
| ThomasEgi | i don't really like strawberry flavor... tastes nothing like strawberry. | 20:14 |
| fenn | http://www.umassmag.com/Winter_2005/Algae_a_la_Mode_827.html | 20:14 |
| ThomasEgi | certainly an option | 20:16 |
| fenn | oh great, "the same way we swish down our calcium in orange juice. " | 20:16 |
| ThomasEgi | altho i don'- really like the idea of living on icecream. | 20:16 |
| ThomasEgi | oranges.. | 20:16 |
| ThomasEgi | should grow pretty well there. | 20:16 |
| ThomasEgi | they like hot weather. | 20:16 |
| ThomasEgi | given we have enough water for them | 20:16 |
| nmz787 | the problem with deserts is the relative lack of hydrogen | 20:16 |
| nmz787 | need H for H-carbons | 20:16 |
| fenn | hopefully they won't add calcium to it | 20:16 |
| ThomasEgi | and.. lack of hydrogen.. we'r working on this | 20:17 |
| fenn | um, water, hello | 20:17 |
| fenn | see previous discussion of zeolite adsorbant | 20:17 |
| ThomasEgi | nmz787, with a bit of luck.. we probably drown starving rather than die from dehydration | 20:18 |
| nmz787 | you're gonna truck in adsorbed zeolite? | 20:18 |
| ThomasEgi | exactly | 20:18 |
| fenn | sorry that was in a different channel | 20:18 |
| nmz787 | wait huh? | 20:18 |
| nmz787 | where do you get good water in the desert? | 20:18 |
| ThomasEgi | air | 20:18 |
| fenn | zeolite adsorbs 20% of its weight in water, and can be regenerated with solar thermal | 20:18 |
| fenn | so you cook out the water and condense it | 20:18 |
| nmz787 | sure there are a few rivers, but the colorado doesn't even connect anymore at the end | 20:18 |
| fenn | then set the zeolite out on trays to adsorb more | 20:19 |
| fenn | there is still plenty of water vapor even in dry desert air | 20:19 |
| ThomasEgi | nmz787, there's bout 8g of water per m³ of air. even on a hot day in desert | 20:19 |
| nmz787 | hmm | 20:19 |
| ThomasEgi | doesnt sound much. but there is a lot of air. and it sums up | 20:19 |
| ThomasEgi | and with zeolite. all you need is.. a solar boiler. | 20:19 |
| ThomasEgi | and.. well a few tons of zeolite. but that's affordable. | 20:20 |
| nmz787 | so the whole moving the zeolite back and forth, does it work out energetically? | 20:20 |
| fenn | ThomasEgi: so the stuff you got, is it pellets? what are the dimensions of a granule? | 20:20 |
| ThomasEgi | nmz787, nah that was for using it as energy storage. different purpose. | 20:20 |
| ThomasEgi | havent received it yet. they should be small globular spheres. | 20:20 |
| ThomasEgi | somewhere between 2 and 5mm | 20:21 |
| fenn | nmz787: in the water absorbing machine, it moves itself in and out of the cooker, like a dipping bird, because it weighs more when saturated | 20:21 |
| ThomasEgi | not sure. you can get them any size in big quantities | 20:21 |
| nmz787 | well you have to spend energy to move it for water purposes too, and if you're then using the water to feed algae to get butanol, etc | 20:21 |
| nmz787 | aren't you burning the butanol to move the engine that moves the zeolite? | 20:21 |
| ThomasEgi | no. | 20:21 |
| ThomasEgi | the zeolite gains weight . so ... it pretty much is a self runner | 20:21 |
| ThomasEgi | and once you have water. you can build a solar powered steam engine | 20:21 |
| nmz787 | but you physically have to move it from the air to the extractor | 20:21 |
| ThomasEgi | sure. | 20:22 |
| nmz787 | or is that just a valve opening closing | 20:22 |
| fenn | i'm imagining the cooker/absorber sitting on a tower with flat mirrors reflecting the sun on it | 20:22 |
| ThomasEgi | nmz787, that's really not much of a problem. in a desert.. there's an almost infinite ammount of energy shining down on you | 20:22 |
| fenn | it just sits there all day bobbing up and down | 20:22 |
| ThomasEgi | moving a few panels.. no problem at all. | 20:22 |
| nmz787 | fenn like the drinking bird? | 20:23 |
| fenn | right | 20:23 |
| nmz787 | heh heh | 20:23 |
| fenn | the drinking bird is powered by evaporation, but this is powered by the thermal gradient from the sun | 20:23 |
| ThomasEgi | well there are many ways | 20:23 |
| ThomasEgi | and.. in worst case.. a small solar panel is all you need to slowly move the panels around | 20:24 |
| ThomasEgi | it's not like you need a lot of power to do that | 20:24 |
| fenn | yeah it could be continuous like in a dessicant wheel | 20:24 |
| nmz787 | a solar panel has a lot of invested energy already though | 20:24 |
| nmz787 | the payoff is pretty long right? | 20:24 |
| ThomasEgi | sure. | 20:24 |
| ThomasEgi | but what we really need is. water | 20:24 |
| ThomasEgi | once you have water... the rest is rather easy. | 20:24 |
| fenn | much easier on earth than luna | 20:25 |
| fenn | there you gotta sift through the dust to find trapped protons from millions of years ago | 20:25 |
| fenn | i wonder what the voltage of the moon is | 20:26 |
| ThomasEgi | so.. we just hang up the zeolite into the air.. and wait a couple of hours. then we cook them dry for a couple of hours. | 20:26 |
| ThomasEgi | and we get a couple of dozen liter water. or more | 20:26 |
| fenn | "the surface charge can get as big as 4,500 volts." aww that's barely an astronomical number | 20:27 |
| ThomasEgi | bet i can get more with my socks on this floor^ | 20:28 |
| fenn | i like that they used "big" as the adjective | 20:28 |
| fenn | my what big volts you have | 20:29 |
| fenn | the better to motivate you with, my dear | 20:29 |
| ThomasEgi | hm. talking bout big volts | 20:30 |
| ThomasEgi | aside from a reconnect that should happen soon on my end. | 20:30 |
| ThomasEgi | there's another company that produces li-fe batteries | 20:30 |
| ThomasEgi | slightly cheaper. only a tad more than 1euro/Wh | 20:31 |
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| ThomasEgi | sry for the interruption. did i miss anything? | 20:34 |
| fenn | no | 20:34 |
| ThomasEgi | BYD seems to sell batteries for cars and ebikes. they also sell those lead-acid replacements | 20:41 |
| ThomasEgi | some for less than 1euro/Wh | 20:42 |
| fenn | it seems charging voltage has the largest effect on battery life expectancy | 20:45 |
| ThomasEgi | and discharge depth | 20:45 |
| fenn | 4.2V lasts >> 400 cycles whereas the same battery charged at 4.35V only lasts 200 cycles | 20:45 |
| ThomasEgi | charging voltage would be handled by the battery management system. in case of the bigger battery blocks | 20:45 |
| fenn | wish they had extended the curve all the way (how long does it actually last?) | 20:46 |
| ThomasEgi | fenn, comes even worse, the charge voltage is temperatur dependent | 20:46 |
| fenn | okay what if you charge at 4.1V? does it matter then? | 20:46 |
| ThomasEgi | then you get a lot less capacity then rated | 20:47 |
| fenn | seems like it barely matters | 20:47 |
| fenn | it's less than 10% capacity difference | 20:47 |
| ThomasEgi | depends on the battery type. | 20:48 |
| ThomasEgi | and the accuracy of the datasheet ;) | 20:48 |
| ThomasEgi | btw. those "blocks" are also available in smaller sizes | 20:48 |
| ThomasEgi | at almost the same price. | 20:48 |
| ThomasEgi | so if you are afraid of one going bad. you can have 10 smaller ones instead of 3 big | 20:49 |
| fenn | i didnt realize that keeping a li-ion battery charged was bad for it. i thought discharging it was what caused capacity loss | 20:49 |
| ThomasEgi | keeping it charged isnt so bad | 20:50 |
| ThomasEgi | keeping it deep-discharged is a lot worse | 20:50 |
| fenn | i'm thinking it makes sense to have a high rate battery chemistry for rapid acceleration and regenerative braking, and a large high capacity but low rate pack to provide the bulk of the energy | 20:51 |
| fenn | with a smart "fuzzy logic" or similar controller to balance out the charge between them | 20:52 |
| ThomasEgi | ... just add a few supercaps. on your motor controller. and you are good to go | 20:52 |
| ThomasEgi | no need for fuzzy logic.. current aint fuzzy^ | 20:52 |
| fenn | that's definitely an option | 20:52 |
| ThomasEgi | but then. that's mostly a thing for city-use | 20:53 |
| fenn | supercaps are usually pitifully low voltage, and stacking capacitors in series is not good if they have high ESR | 20:53 |
| fenn | so you'd need to do some crazy buck boost circuit to get everything at the right voltage | 20:53 |
| ThomasEgi | who cares bout ESR in an electric vehicle? | 20:55 |
| ThomasEgi | it aint "that" bad | 20:55 |
| fenn | omg this is 10F https://www.sparkfun.com/products/746 | 20:55 |
| ThomasEgi | .. there are 3000F caps. | 20:56 |
| ThomasEgi | for voltages around 2 volt or so | 20:56 |
| ThomasEgi | http://www.ebay.com/itm/Ultracapacitor-Diesel-Engine-Battery-Starter-Booster-Car-Ultra-Super-Capacitor-/370618540568?pt=Battery_Chargers&hash=item564a962218 | 20:57 |
| ThomasEgi | http://www.ebay.com/itm/3000F-2-7V-Supercap-3000-Farad-Super-Ultra-Capacitor-/150642133382?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item2312f88986 | 20:57 |
| ThomasEgi | with 2000Amps peak current.. not half as bad | 20:58 |
| ThomasEgi | if you short it, charged. you WISH that can would've only been a harmless energy drink | 20:58 |
| fenn | first one says it's 370 farads (at 12 volts?) | 20:59 |
| fenn | so 53kJ | 20:59 |
| ThomasEgi | sounds fun.. | 20:59 |
| ThomasEgi | ... bloody fun. | 21:00 |
| fenn | so that ought to be enough to get me up to 80kph | 21:00 |
| fenn | let me add a warranty.. yeah right | 21:01 |
| fenn | i just wanna know what order of magnitude the ESR is | 21:02 |
| ThomasEgi | usualy around 0.3mOhm | 21:02 |
| ThomasEgi | so even with 7 in series... you are still within lower single digit mOhm | 21:02 |
| ThomasEgi | my guess is.. whatever wire you use to short it... it'll most likely just BANG and vaporize. | 21:03 |
| fenn | the sparkfun 10F has 40-80 ohm internal | 21:04 |
| fenn | it's more a concern for heat buildup when cycling the capacitor | 21:04 |
| fenn | it's a lot of energy moving around .. kilojoules you know | 21:05 |
| ThomasEgi | sparkfun.. | 21:05 |
| ThomasEgi | that aint a cap. | 21:05 |
| ThomasEgi | that's decoration | 21:05 |
| fenn | but it has a datasheet | 21:05 |
| fenn | i figure they're all made of similar enough materials | 21:05 |
| ThomasEgi | true.. it is still decoration. nothing you'd use in a vehicle. | 21:05 |
| ThomasEgi | those caps should go in something like a smoke detector to make up for a failing battery or so | 21:05 |
| ThomasEgi | material and dimensioning the materials are 2 things | 21:06 |
| fenn | "super diesel battery booster" isn't going to tell me how much their product heats up per cycle, because they don't know and don't care | 21:07 |
| ThomasEgi | you can find DC and AC ESR | 21:07 |
| ThomasEgi | spoiler. both are below 0.3mOhms. | 21:07 |
| fenn | for the battery booster? | 21:08 |
| ThomasEgi | for the cap. | 21:08 |
| ThomasEgi | booster.. all thesame | 21:08 |
| ThomasEgi | you can load those with hundrets of amps and they'll hardly heat up. | 21:08 |
| ThomasEgi | i mean even is you have 100Amps going over it. that makes .3 volts. or 30 watts | 21:09 |
| ThomasEgi | and.. if you just do start/stop with that things.. you totaly won't get up to that average.. a short peak here, a short peak there. that's it. | 21:10 |
| ThomasEgi | maxwell has ultracaps designed for regenarative braking systems with very low ESR | 21:11 |
| ThomasEgi | http://www.maxwell.com/products/ultracapacitors/products/k2-series | 21:11 |
| ThomasEgi | pretty much exactly what's on sale on ebay | 21:12 |
| fenn | hmm maybe i'll sell small regenerative braking modules | 21:14 |
| ThomasEgi | rated over 1000000 duty cycles. with currents rating from 600 A peak upwards | 21:14 |
| fenn | these are all huge things for trains and buses | 21:14 |
| ThomasEgi | short circuit current.. up to 9kA | 21:14 |
| * ThomasEgi drools | 21:15 | |
| fenn | you could suspend some frogs | 21:15 |
| fenn | diamagnetic levitation: ► 0:09► 0:09 | 21:16 |
| fenn | www.youtube.com/watch?v=A1vyB-O5i6E | 21:16 |
| fenn | i wish google had a "dont fuck with my urls" mode | 21:17 |
| fenn | i wonder how that quantum loop flux pinning is coming long | 21:19 |
| ThomasEgi | so many thing i don't worry bout. because it is of no pratical relevance yet and up to reasearchers | 21:20 |
| fenn | just trying to think of what to do with 9kA | 21:21 |
| fenn | it's not quite enough to shrink coins | 21:21 |
| fenn | http://benkrasnow.blogspot.com/2011/06/what-should-i-build-with-six.html | 21:22 |
| fenn | spot welder seems to be the consensus | 21:22 |
| ThomasEgi | you shouldn't short those caps anyway. | 21:23 |
| ThomasEgi | if you need more current just connect in parallel | 21:23 |
| fenn | no spot welder? how am i gonna connect my batteries :P | 21:24 |
| fenn | hm | 21:24 |
| fenn | Unit Price: $5.50 | 21:24 |
| fenn | Special Pricing Buy 6 for $500.00 each | 21:24 |
| fenn | is that some kind of joke | 21:24 |
| fenn | electronic goldmine sure has gotten expensive | 21:26 |
| ThomasEgi | so did gold | 21:28 |
| fenn | maybe it's dollars that went down | 21:29 |
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| ThomasEgi | with the FED printing money like crazy?... naaah impossible </irony> | 21:30 |
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| Maluseth | know any sources of alternate home energy> | 22:11 |
| Maluseth | damn the electricity bills | 22:11 |
| Maluseth | sigh | 22:11 |
| Maluseth | and gas too | 22:11 |
| Maluseth | wind turbines and solar wont do | 22:11 |
| Maluseth | is there something greatttter | 22:12 |
| fenn | cold fusion | 22:15 |
| fenn | high altitude kites | 22:16 |
| fenn | wood gasifier | 22:17 |
| fenn | read up my boy | 22:17 |
| fenn | oh, and zeolite apparently | 22:17 |
| * fenn sleeps | 22:18 | |
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| jrayhawk | firewood is usually cheaper than electrical heating, and sometimes cheaper than natural gas, if that helps | 23:43 |
| --- Log closed Sat Nov 10 00:00:07 2012 | ||
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