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| Maluseth1 | I have spent days now searching for this "universal" machine for making precision parts, 'micromachining.' Instead purchasing different machines at 20k to 50k, I thought why not buy a 200k to 300k machine that does it all? | 04:55 |
|---|---|---|
| Maluseth1 | but such thing does not exist. | 04:55 |
| ThomasEgi | srsly.. what did you expect :D | 04:56 |
| Maluseth1 | if you were to pick 2 machines that could fundamentally cover all axis and angles - | 04:56 |
| Maluseth1 | which machines would they be? | 04:56 |
| Maluseth1 | lathe and mills? | 04:56 |
| ThomasEgi | all?? | 04:56 |
| ThomasEgi | all are a lot of degrees of freedom | 04:56 |
| Maluseth1 | specifically then | 04:56 |
| Maluseth1 | gears. and outer shells. | 04:56 |
| Maluseth1 | and holes | 04:57 |
| Maluseth1 | so thats... lathe = gears | 04:57 |
| ThomasEgi | doubt you can get a one-size-fits all machine | 04:57 |
| Maluseth1 | outer shell shaping = 5 axis machine | 04:57 |
| Maluseth1 | holes = drills ?: | 04:57 |
| ThomasEgi | you can mill gears on a 5 axis machine just fine. | 04:57 |
| ThomasEgi | you can also get a 5axis and a rotary table | 04:58 |
| ThomasEgi | but those are not really for micro-mechanics | 04:58 |
| Maluseth1 | there seems to be 5 axis machines for precision manufacturing | 04:58 |
| ThomasEgi | yeah but... precision is to be defined | 04:58 |
| Maluseth1 | so like i imagined, 5 axis would be the ultimate choice. | 04:58 |
| Maluseth1 | been reading up on swiss-type lathes. | 04:59 |
| ThomasEgi | there's a big difference between precision in regular machines, micromachines, and stuff like nano structures | 04:59 |
| Maluseth1 | but this does long screw type of work and gears. | 04:59 |
| Maluseth1 | yes definitely | 04:59 |
| Maluseth1 | when they say precision, i have to read up on it carefully | 04:59 |
| ThomasEgi | you can't cover all with just one machine. | 05:00 |
| Maluseth1 | see how "precise it really can go." | 05:00 |
| Maluseth1 | yes | 05:00 |
| Maluseth1 | but starting with a 5 axis would be a safe bet no? | 05:00 |
| Maluseth1 | i gotta try and find something universal... | 05:00 |
| Maluseth1 | or things that have lots of mod-capable.... | 05:00 |
| ThomasEgi | for bigger parts, a 5 axis machine sure is a sweet toy. but you probably want to build furniture with it rather than clockworks | 05:00 |
| Maluseth1 | yes | 05:01 |
| Maluseth1 | clockworks are mostly gears - and these are suitable for swiss-style lathes | 05:01 |
| Maluseth1 | 2d work almost. | 05:01 |
| Maluseth1 | gears. | 05:01 |
| Maluseth1 | so that's what it looked like on the videos... | 05:01 |
| Maluseth1 | i am dazed. | 05:01 |
| Maluseth1 | i've gone crazy, there are so many manufacturers, | 05:02 |
| Maluseth1 | so many tools | 05:02 |
| Maluseth1 | i didn't think there'd be this many | 05:02 |
| ThomasEgi | there are countless. | 05:02 |
| Maluseth1 | infinite | 05:02 |
| ThomasEgi | for each range of precision. | 05:02 |
| Maluseth1 | it's a universe. | 05:02 |
| Maluseth1 | i am tired now | 05:02 |
| ThomasEgi | the question is. what do you want to build | 05:02 |
| ThomasEgi | and then. you can get the right tools for that. | 05:02 |
| Maluseth1 | my goal is i guess making precise machines for medical stuff | 05:03 |
| ThomasEgi | and there are wolrds between a the gear of a wristwatch, and MEMS stuff | 05:03 |
| Maluseth1 | something between wristwatch parts and MEMS stuff | 05:03 |
| Maluseth1 | in the scale of realm (size) | 05:03 |
| Maluseth1 | so that's quite small | 05:04 |
| Maluseth1 | ok | 05:04 |
| Maluseth1 | i will keep on looking | 05:04 |
| ThomasEgi | so.. in the range of single-digit cm in maximum size. and very high resolution? | 05:04 |
| Maluseth1 | i wish someone could just give me the answer. | 05:04 |
| Maluseth1 | mm i would say, | 05:05 |
| Maluseth1 | or microm | 05:05 |
| Maluseth1 | Um | 05:05 |
| ThomasEgi | hm.. piezo hexapod might be of interest for you | 05:05 |
| Maluseth1 | i just saw that on an ad | 05:05 |
| Maluseth1 | that portable looking thing | 05:05 |
| Maluseth1 | is it computer numerical controlled? | 05:05 |
| ThomasEgi | well you can controll it using analog potentiometers too :D | 05:06 |
| ThomasEgi | but they all come with computer controlls | 05:06 |
| Maluseth1 | but this is more like MEMS you stack things in layers | 05:07 |
| Maluseth1 | i am hoping something like rapid prototyping | 05:07 |
| Maluseth1 | milling to be specific | 05:07 |
| Maluseth1 | hmm | 05:07 |
| Maluseth1 | back to those universal centers | 05:07 |
| Maluseth1 | i will find | 05:08 |
| Maluseth1 | thank you for your suggestions........... | 05:08 |
| ThomasEgi | there's laser sintering | 05:08 |
| ThomasEgi | which is pretty precise too. | 05:08 |
| Maluseth1 | lasers yes | 05:09 |
| Maluseth1 | always precise | 05:09 |
| Maluseth1 | right ok | 05:09 |
| ThomasEgi | but milling and rapid protoyping usualy are 2 different things :d | 05:09 |
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| Maluseth1 | laser sintering, is this LAM ? additive manufacturing? | 05:10 |
| ThomasEgi | not very experienced with that. | 05:10 |
| Maluseth1 | i thought they aren't out yet by commercially the machines | 05:10 |
| ThomasEgi | there definetly are laser sintering for metals | 05:11 |
| ThomasEgi | https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Selective_laser_sintering | 05:12 |
| Maluseth1 | this is incredibly difficult. one wrong move and it will be many years before i can re-begin | 05:12 |
| Maluseth1 | SLS | 05:13 |
| Maluseth1 | got it | 05:13 |
| Maluseth1 | it looks amazing | 05:13 |
| ThomasEgi | not sure bout precision and surface properties tho | 05:14 |
| ThomasEgi | but. definetly a worth a look | 05:14 |
| Maluseth1 | how much would they cost though | 05:14 |
| Maluseth1 | hope it's affordable | 05:14 |
| ThomasEgi | affordable is a question on how much money you have | 05:14 |
| ThomasEgi | those things wont be cheap | 05:14 |
| ThomasEgi | neither on purchase, nor on operation | 05:14 |
| Maluseth1 | i believe 150k is possible | 05:15 |
| Maluseth1 | maybe even more | 05:15 |
| Maluseth1 | at 200k to 250, even 300k, but they must be universal | 05:16 |
| Maluseth1 | in such a way that it pretty much can shape anything, | 05:16 |
| Maluseth1 | and no other tools (or just some lesser costly tools) required | 05:16 |
| ThomasEgi | there's no such thing as "truly universal" | 05:16 |
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| ThomasEgi | laser sintering is as universal as it can get | 05:17 |
| ThomasEgi | it works wtih many materials and allows you to build very complex things. but depending on what you want to do, other tools might be a lot cheaper | 05:17 |
| Maluseth1 | maybe i should just get a precision 3d printer and use the machine shop services | 05:17 |
| Maluseth1 | for metallic manufacture.... sigh | 05:17 |
| Maluseth1 | i can't believe SLS is real | 05:18 |
| Maluseth1 | amazing info | 05:18 |
| Maluseth1 | thank you | 05:18 |
| ThomasEgi | it got poor resolution tho | 05:18 |
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| ThomasEgi | DMLS exists too. but my guess is, that it's more expensive | 05:19 |
| Maluseth1 | wow | 05:20 |
| Maluseth1 | ok | 05:20 |
| ThomasEgi | again.. same drawbacks on surface quality and stuff | 05:21 |
| Maluseth1 | then there are machines for surface finishing | 05:21 |
| Maluseth1 | at least the shapes are formed with rapid prototyping -like universal way | 05:22 |
| Maluseth1 | that just makes everything simpler if not simple | 05:22 |
| Maluseth1 | yes dmls makes 20 to 40 microns | 05:23 |
| Maluseth1 | thats small | 05:23 |
| Maluseth1 | precise | 05:23 |
| Maluseth1 | versal dmls machine | 05:25 |
| Maluseth1 | oops | 05:25 |
| Maluseth1 | typo | 05:25 |
| ThomasEgi | that's like.. the size of a boulder comparet to MEMS tho | 05:25 |
| ThomasEgi | http://www.bacteria-world.com/mems-hinge.htm | 05:26 |
| Maluseth1 | could there be machines so precise that goes into the realm of mems w/lasers | 05:26 |
| Maluseth1 | wow couldnt sleep at all | 05:28 |
| Maluseth1 | hope i'll find the answer i hope dmls is === | 05:28 |
| Maluseth1 | in the range of purchase | 05:28 |
| ThomasEgi | lasers are cool but they have limits,too. | 05:29 |
| Maluseth1 | 600k + it seems | 05:29 |
| ThomasEgi | was about so say.. | 05:29 |
| ThomasEgi | it's probably a lot cheaper to just ask a protoyping service to do the parts | 05:29 |
| ThomasEgi | cause unless you operate those machines 24/7 they won't pay off | 05:30 |
| Maluseth1 | yeah | 05:30 |
| Maluseth1 | what i was thinking so a precise 3d printing machine for prototypes | 05:30 |
| Maluseth1 | best tangible building | 05:31 |
| Maluseth1 | blocks | 05:31 |
| Maluseth1 | i can touch n see | 05:31 |
| ThomasEgi | 3d printing what material? | 05:31 |
| Maluseth1 | plastic filaments of course | 05:31 |
| Maluseth1 | but enough to visualize | 05:31 |
| ThomasEgi | so. just a regular 3d printer? | 05:31 |
| Maluseth1 | and send over specs to services | 05:31 |
| Maluseth1 | no high definition printer in 3d | 05:32 |
| Maluseth1 | very high definition | 05:32 |
| ThomasEgi | filament printing has limits | 05:32 |
| ThomasEgi | at some point there's no way around sintering | 05:32 |
| ThomasEgi | developing an open-source laser-sinter machine would be pretty cool tho | 05:33 |
| Maluseth1 | yes but what i saw, they can print up to parts size of a... dot | 05:33 |
| Maluseth1 | yeah sintering seems to be the singularity of all manufacturing process | 05:33 |
| Maluseth1 | about the money.... sigh | 05:34 |
| ThomasEgi | well precision comes at a price | 05:34 |
| Maluseth1 | yes thank you so much for this | 05:37 |
| Maluseth1 | information | 05:37 |
| ThomasEgi | just.. stay out of the mm range | 05:37 |
| Maluseth1 | now i can make a step at least | 05:37 |
| ThomasEgi | either go bigger. or smaller^ | 05:37 |
| ThomasEgi | and if you have to produce parts in that size range. ask some prototyping service. | 05:37 |
| Maluseth1 | yes i think i must go bigger (cause it's cheaper) | 05:37 |
| ThomasEgi | if you go smaller it becomes cheaper,too. | 05:38 |
| ThomasEgi | going away from mechanical manufactoring | 05:38 |
| Maluseth1 | really? but not CNC right- | 05:38 |
| Maluseth1 | yes i thought so | 05:38 |
| Maluseth1 | somekind of lithography technique or something | 05:38 |
| Maluseth1 | manual | 05:38 |
| ThomasEgi | well lithography is not so manual | 05:39 |
| Maluseth1 | i dont know what im talking about | 05:39 |
| Maluseth1 | hahaha | 05:39 |
| ThomasEgi | it does involve more process steps. | 05:39 |
| Maluseth1 | i get it though | 05:39 |
| ThomasEgi | but it can be done at a budget | 05:39 |
| ThomasEgi | the masks used for lithography, are of course, engineered on a compter | 05:39 |
| ThomasEgi | printed out, minified etc. | 05:39 |
| Maluseth1 | so far HD 3d printer + just average fabrication tools for bigger objects. | 05:40 |
| Maluseth1 | i see | 05:40 |
| ThomasEgi | really doubt the printer would pay off | 05:40 |
| ThomasEgi | unless you produce in big numbers | 05:40 |
| ThomasEgi | which.. i don't think you will. | 05:40 |
| chris_99 | you can avoid masks using stereolithography, if you're making 3D objects | 05:40 |
| Maluseth1 | what the hello | 05:41 |
| Maluseth1 | ok | 05:41 |
| Maluseth1 | incredible | 05:41 |
| Maluseth1 | and incredibly complex | 05:41 |
| chris_99 | gives a lot higher res than filament though | 05:42 |
| ThomasEgi | still.. comparebly simple | 05:42 |
| Maluseth1 | ok back to planning. | 05:44 |
| Maluseth1 | my goal is biomedical invention of somesort | 05:44 |
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| ThomasEgi | hm. there's also multi jet modelling | 05:45 |
| ThomasEgi | they are a bit like inkjet plotters for 3d. | 05:46 |
| ThomasEgi | they are more of the desktop-version of a 3d printer. | 05:46 |
| ThomasEgi | when doing biomedical stuff. you not only have to take care about precision. but also the material itself, biocompatibility, coating it etc. | 05:47 |
| ThomasEgi | so.. you probably want to at some coating tools to your list. to do parylene and teflon coating, maybe metallic coatings,too. | 05:48 |
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| Maluseth1 | yes i read palladium is biocompatible | 05:57 |
| Maluseth1 | w/ out any allergic reactions | 05:57 |
| Maluseth1 | or rejection among few other synthetic materals | 05:57 |
| Maluseth1 | there appears to be moulds making with sand in dmls | 05:58 |
| Maluseth1 | i wonder if its cheaper | 05:58 |
| ThomasEgi | you.. probably want to step back and look at what you really need again. | 06:02 |
| ThomasEgi | or rather. what you plan to develop | 06:02 |
| ThomasEgi | and then look for the tools | 06:02 |
| ThomasEgi | in any case. get a sandwich toaster. | 06:02 |
| ThomasEgi | those things are awesome | 06:03 |
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| ThomasEgi | Maluseth1, in case you are still wide awake http://objet.com/3d-printers | 06:35 |
| ThomasEgi | they offer material for producing parts with certain medical compatibility | 06:36 |
| ThomasEgi | their desktop version goes for 20k | 06:39 |
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| ThomasEgi | their object30 pro, goes for bout 43k | 06:43 |
| chris_99 | bargain | 06:43 |
| ThomasEgi | indeed | 06:43 |
| ThomasEgi | especially as the 30pro can print 7 materials | 06:43 |
| ThomasEgi | amongst them, transparent and high-temperature resistant. so you can print vacum-forms with it | 06:44 |
| ThomasEgi | and.. that's something that might even pay off. | 06:44 |
| ThomasEgi | that thing's pretty sweet actually. you could print molds for parts ,too. | 06:51 |
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| kanzure | http://diybioeurope.eventbrite.com | 07:05 |
| kanzure | http://www.diybio.eu/diybio-europe-kick-off-meeting-1st-dec-paris/ | 07:06 |
| ThomasEgi | those multimaterial printers are pretty impressive | 07:14 |
| chris_99 | they could even print glass i think?! | 07:15 |
| ThomasEgi | transparent materials yes. glass no | 07:16 |
| chris_99 | yeah maybe that one can't but - http://www.techradar.com/news/world-of-tech/computing-components/peripherals/3d-printers-can-now-print-in-glass-638636 | 07:17 |
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| ThomasEgi | chris_99, doesn't look too impressive tho | 07:19 |
| ThomasEgi | i wonder if they can get the crystal-clear surface,too. | 07:20 |
| ThomasEgi | without manual polishing | 07:20 |
| chris_99 | yeah | 07:20 |
| chido | kanzure: do you know of anyone from here headed there? | 07:23 |
| kanzure | nope | 07:23 |
| kanzure | i mean, i don't know who's going | 07:23 |
| ThomasEgi | hm. there's a direct train to paris.. running from a city close to mine. | 07:32 |
| ThomasEgi | probably won't attend tho | 07:33 |
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| archels | Brain energy metabolism and blood flow differences in healthy aging | 07:44 |
| archels | spot the oxymoron. | 07:44 |
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| kanzure | yashgaroth: have you stalked "doug wilson"? | 09:13 |
| nmz787 | kanzure, how was the cabin? | 09:19 |
| nmz787 | so I didn't make it past the second google interview | 09:20 |
| nmz787 | i thought I did pretty decent, but I knew afterwards there were some mistake | 09:20 |
| nmz787 | but they were pretty minimal I thought | 09:20 |
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| kanzure | cabin was interesting | 09:24 |
| kanzure | what were the google interview questions this time? | 09:24 |
| nmz787 | implement memcopy in c | 09:26 |
| nmz787 | implement memmove (memcopy with a check for overlapping data bounds) | 09:26 |
| nmz787 | implement in python a function that increments a number that is stored as a string | 09:26 |
| kanzure | int(number_stored_as_string)+1 | 09:29 |
| nmz787 | then you have to cast it back | 09:30 |
| kanzure | str(int(number_you_stored_as_string)+1)) | 09:30 |
| nmz787 | i also offered an if/then tree checking just the last char, then setting it back to the next value, except in case of 9 | 09:30 |
| kanzure | also i bet they would be a douche about it and make the number have commas, so you'd have to use the number formatting functions | 09:30 |
| nmz787 | oh actually you can't cast to int, | 09:30 |
| nmz787 | because they said it was for BIG integers | 09:31 |
| nmz787 | i.e. bigger than int could store | 09:31 |
| nmz787 | no commas decimals, only whole nums | 09:31 |
| kanzure | seems to work to me.. int(str(2 ** 10000)) | 09:31 |
| nmz787 | yeah but for a number that's longer than int can hol? | 09:32 |
| nmz787 | hold? | 09:32 |
| nmz787 | so anyway I said the if/then 0-9 cases would be less operations than the casting | 09:32 |
| nmz787 | and went that route | 09:32 |
| ThomasEgi | nmz787, python automatically handles big ints | 09:33 |
| nmz787 | hmm, well google said they wanted me to use strings with big ints | 09:34 |
| ThomasEgi | so.. kanzure's sollution will totaly work. if they told you something else... then well. tell them to eat their friggin questions.. | 09:34 |
| nmz787 | 'imagine you were making a library to handle really big numbers using strings to store them in, how would you add 1 to a number you've stored with this library?' | 09:34 |
| ThomasEgi | in worst case.. install scipy. i think they allow for numbers up to infinite | 09:35 |
| nmz787 | heh | 09:35 |
| nmz787 | well anyway i didn't make it | 09:35 |
| nmz787 | prob because i didnt tell them to use scipy | 09:35 |
| kanzure | interviewers really hate it when you tell them the answer is to use a standard library | 09:36 |
| kanzure | nevermind that a standard memcopy is going to be thousands of times better than whatever crap you come up with in 5min | 09:36 |
| nmz787 | yeah | 09:37 |
| ThomasEgi | just checked. python's interpreter automatically switches over to another backend when numbers grow big. there's no integer limit | 09:37 |
| nmz787 | i just had a for loop depp copying each data block | 09:37 |
| ThomasEgi | so.. you can just do.. yournumber +=1 #bitch please | 09:37 |
| nmz787 | but i realized after that i didnt pass in a pointer so it wouldn't have worked | 09:37 |
| kanzure | "#bitch please" is not pep8 compliant :o | 09:37 |
| nmz787 | but it was mostly there | 09:37 |
| nmz787 | first line was to check if the dest was =0 | 09:38 |
| nmz787 | but again i forgot the & there | 09:38 |
| nmz787 | huh | 09:38 |
| nmz787 | well | 09:38 |
| nmz787 | i guess if they know that, then i really screwed that up | 09:38 |
| ThomasEgi | kanzure, prefer triple quotes? | 09:39 |
| kanzure | pep8 just says something about including a space after the '#' symbol | 09:39 |
| ThomasEgi | those are just recommendations anyway | 09:39 |
| ThomasEgi | looks like python's limit for long integers is 4,294,967,295 digits. | 09:41 |
| ThomasEgi | 4.. billion... forking.. digits. that's bout as many digits as i have bytes in my RAM. | 09:42 |
| ThomasEgi | where did you apply for anyway? | 09:43 |
| ParahSail1n | is the backend for that GMP? | 09:43 |
| ThomasEgi | http://www.python.org/dev/peps/pep-0237/ | 09:44 |
| nmz787 | they contacted me, it was for site reliability | 09:44 |
| nmz787 | so bug fixin | 09:44 |
| ParahSail1n | oh no, that wouldnt be license compatible | 09:44 |
| nmz787 | i'd rather be doing lithography or cloning, but hey I need a job | 09:44 |
| kanzure | hm. the quadcore w520 laptops seem to support 32 GB RAM. | 09:52 |
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| ParahSail1n | overheard in DIYBio list "I'm interested in culturing some soil bacteria and screening it for the ability to break down lipofuscin (this is not my idea originally, you may have read of it being proposed by Aubrey de Grey - but as far as I can tell nobody has actually carried out the experiment)." | 10:42 |
| ParahSail1n | facepalm | 10:42 |
| ParahSail1n | i guess i should have published something in the journal of negative results in biomedicine | 10:43 |
| kanzure | iirc there was also some longecity/imminst soil study that was done too | 10:44 |
| kanzure | ParahSail1n: what exactly did you do? | 10:45 |
| nmz787 | its weird that you would choose soil bacteria though | 10:45 |
| ParahSail1n | well for a while i was a SENS grad student | 10:46 |
| nmz787 | the soil bacteria are a good start for enzyme mining, but they seem unlikely to be directly beneficial | 10:46 |
| nmz787 | do we have longnow folks in here? | 10:46 |
| ParahSail1n | i tried in wastewater treatment plant activated sludge | 10:47 |
| kanzure | i used to be into the longnow stuff | 10:47 |
| kanzure | longnow/brand was the reason i used to write all my dates in 02006 format until i realized i was lame. | 10:48 |
| kanzure | ParahSail1n: yeah i know your SENS background, i just haven't heard about your involvement in a lipofuscin project or the results or what happened | 10:49 |
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| nmz787 | kanzure: do you know john bishop http://norsam.com/about-us.html | 11:03 |
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| kanzure | 13:28 <+iimarckus> kanzure: do you have to manually approve wiki accounts? | 13:28 |
| kanzure | jrayhawk: do i have to type addaccess for each new user? | 13:28 |
| jrayhawk | No, the wiki is 0666 | 13:29 |
| kanzure | what about haxwiki? | 13:29 |
| jrayhawk | oh, yeah, unless you want to pinyconfig haxwiki core.sharedrepository 0666 | 13:29 |
| jrayhawk | and rebuildrepo haxwiki since apparently i haven't updated piny on there for a while | 13:30 |
| kanzure | and then rebuildre-- ok yeah | 13:31 |
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| nmz787 | kanzure: hey so do you know that dude? | 13:57 |
| kanzure | nmz787: nope | 14:08 |
| kanzure | speaking of stewart brand.. i just got an email he blasted out about some people that are going around fixing broken clock towers | 14:48 |
| kanzure | "A few years ago these underground hackers and artists became infamous when one morning the clock at the Panthéon, that had not worked in years, began chiming. There have been 15 such restorations done without permission." | 14:48 |
| kanzure | "The secretive members of the Paris Urban eXperiment, known internally as "The UX", have spent the last 30 years surreptitiously probing into the vast hidden world under the city --- and improving it." | 14:48 |
| nmz787 | fenn: maybe there could be a bio CO2 capture system AKA the desert zeolite water collector using PEI http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polyethylenimine#CO2_capture | 15:00 |
| nmz787 | fenn: well doesn't have to be bio* | 15:01 |
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| ThomasEgi | nmz787, wish there'd be more efficient ways to collect H2O | 15:38 |
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| kanzure | why aren't charities run on bitcoins? you could prove that your bitcoins are going to the exact things that you earmarked them for. | 16:30 |
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| AdrianG | because charities arent really about helping anyone | 16:54 |
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| ThomasEgi | AdrianG, thank you for helping us help you help us all. | 17:04 |
| streety | What would be the advantage of that? It's all just accounting, unless some bitcoins are different to other bitcoins. | 17:08 |
| AdrianG | ThomasEgi, pls send a cheque. i am not a charity. | 17:08 |
| kanzure | streety: some people donate to charities expecting the money to go to a certain thing | 17:09 |
| AdrianG | fools | 17:09 |
| ThomasEgi | i'd even send you 2cent for that wisdom above. but that'd be uneconomical due to the banks | 17:09 |
| AdrianG | orly | 17:10 |
| ThomasEgi | charity.. is mostly psycological treatment, with a tad of self-sustainment, a lot of paperworks, and, more often than not, too little effect. | 17:10 |
| ThomasEgi | money gets donated, nice pictures for websites are taken. real help... usualy nowhere to be found outside the field of vision of the cameras. | 17:10 |
| streety | This I know, but I still don't see the advantage. They could just route other bitcoins to other causes they would ordinarily have given to my requested cause | 17:11 |
| ThomasEgi | you see.. if you could trace the money.. you.d see that most gets wasted. so why saw of the branch you'r sitting on? | 17:11 |
| kanzure | the idea is that if you have a more effective charity model, you could theoretically eat up the donations that are usually going to all the other shitty charities | 17:14 |
| kanzure | throwing millions of dollars at random, unrelated grants to "cure cancer" isn't necessarily going to build an informed research strategy (and neither will crowdsourcing, for that matter) | 17:16 |
| ThomasEgi | if throwing around millions would do any good... the Federal Reserve would be like mother theresa. we all know... they'r not. | 17:19 |
| streety | From a talk I attended recently James Watson seems to be of a similar opinion, better to throw cash at a small number of high risk high reward projects/investigators | 17:21 |
| streety | Though that's probably not such a good appeal to authority, he largely came across and cross and a little bit crazy | 17:22 |
| kanzure | streety: so you disagree with the approach here? http://diyhpl.us/wiki/transcripts/open-science-summit-2010/scott-johnson-myelin-repair-foundation/ | 17:23 |
| streety | taking a look now | 17:26 |
| kanzure | aha there's the number. "in 2009 nearly $304 billion was given to nonprofits" http://fundingchangeconsulting.com/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2010/02/Philanthropy-in-the-United-States.updated.pdf | 17:31 |
| kanzure | so anyway, what if you could buy the same amount of charity for only $152 billion? | 17:32 |
| ThomasEgi | so they got 300billion.. and.. what did they do with it? | 17:36 |
| kanzure | are you asking me, or in general, or what? | 17:39 |
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| streety | kanzure, there were lots of points I'm not entirely sure hold together. Having said that I agree with the approach | 17:42 |
| streety | I think you need more than that though, the approach is incremental rather than transformative in terms of the scientific output | 17:43 |
| kanzure | many many charitable organizations need a small amount of engineering to solve their missions | 17:44 |
| kanzure | you don't need a revolution in fucking science to make a cheaper malaria cure patent | 17:44 |
| kanzure | right? | 17:44 |
| kanzure | are you saying that charity must necessarily be transformative, rather than incremental? | 17:45 |
| streety | you don't need very much at all for a patent of any sort | 17:45 |
| streety | an actual cure though? Perhaps you do | 17:45 |
| streety | not at all, a charity can do whatever it wants | 17:46 |
| kanzure | well, my comment was a combination of (1) anger that charities pay patent licensing fees or that they lease out their patents and make money that way, and (2) just an example that doesn't require transformative output | 17:46 |
| kanzure | ok | 17:46 |
| kanzure | but yes, buying "a unit of transformative output" with bitcoins is much more murky to envision than "buying a centrifuge for SENS' latest research project" | 17:48 |
| kanzure | *buying a centrifuge... with bitcoins | 17:48 |
| streety | at the moment it seems a defendable patent does help with getting a treatment to market, it's probably better that it be with a charity focusing on treatment than with most other entities | 17:48 |
| kanzure | i bet charities are so inefficient because nobody has bothered to sit down and design something better | 17:51 |
| streety | skipping back to a point earlier when you say "cure cancer" what exactly do you mean? | 17:52 |
| kanzure | they don't really have the same pressure to be efficient like businesses that are competing one-to-one except in the vague sense that they compete for donations (but the only way they would fail to raise the same amount of money is related to bad publicity, not so much product/output) | 17:52 |
| streety | efficiency is going to rather, largely because of the people running them | 17:52 |
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| kanzure | streety: it's well known among researchers that you don't "cure cancer". cancer is far too vague of a word and refers to many different conditions. | 17:53 |
| streety | indeed, I would argue it is even more complicated than that | 17:53 |
| streety | even for a narrowly defined cancer the idea of a cure is vague | 17:54 |
| kanzure | despite that fact, there are still charities that accept donations in the name of "curing cancer" | 17:54 |
| kanzure | does that answer your question? | 17:54 |
| AdrianG | it does not. | 17:54 |
| streety | partly, I was curious at what stringency of cure achieved you would consider good value for money to be received | 17:56 |
| streety | where "you" is the channel participants in general | 17:56 |
| kanzure | personally i would probably not donate under most reasonable circumstances (there are unreasonable circumstances where i would) mostly because i think that spending money on fixing inefficiencies in $300B would be more valuable | 17:58 |
| yashgaroth | money spent per cure is a silly metric when you don't have a drug ready for development; we'd be far better off putting dem cancer moniez into basic biology research | 17:58 |
| kanzure | e.g. what if only $3M/year would increase charitable efficiency by 10%? that would be like donating $30B ;) | 17:58 |
| AdrianG | in your dreams maybe | 17:59 |
| yashgaroth | every fucking molbio paper out there has to mention how the research is tangentially related to curing something, often cancer | 17:59 |
| streety | the problem comes when you don't agree with the mission of every charity | 17:59 |
| AdrianG | yashgaroth, this research is known to the state of California to cause cancer. | 18:01 |
| yashgaroth | yo momma's known to blah blah you know the rest | 18:01 |
| AdrianG | to cause cancer? | 18:01 |
| yashgaroth | in california, yes | 18:02 |
| yashgaroth | anyway, when you're looking at biology through the lens of disease only, you tend to miss things that are often important | 18:03 |
| streety | The state of california in thr US substitutes for the Daily Mail in the UK as the go-to source for cancer cause/cure classification? | 18:04 |
| yashgaroth | nah they just pass a lot of stupid ballot initiatives | 18:04 |
| streety | yashgaroth, agree completely, that's what I meant for transformative science | 18:04 |
| streety | I'm not sure if that is better or worse | 18:05 |
| yashgaroth | nothing is worse than the daily mail | 18:05 |
| streety | but does it cause cancer? | 18:06 |
| yashgaroth | metaphorical | 18:06 |
| yashgaroth | I'd imagine charity has an obligation to be transformative, since they don't need to turn a profit or have popular support (i.e. industry and gov't respectively) | 18:07 |
| streety | only transformative within the scope of their mission though | 18:09 |
| AdrianG | lol daily mail is known the state of california to cause cancer | 18:24 |
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| kanzure | boop | 23:26 |
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| --- Log closed Wed Nov 14 00:00:12 2012 | ||
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