| --- Log opened Sun Nov 18 00:00:18 2012 | ||
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| drethelin1 | guys is there a biohack to make my fresh tattoo not itch | 00:38 |
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| foucist | drethelin1: run hot water over it for 5 minutes | 01:24 |
| foucist | er, actually 1 minute is fine | 01:24 |
| foucist | 60 seconds | 01:24 |
| foucist | hot as you can stand | 01:24 |
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| kanzure | wtf https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=kitty.spongebob.smurfs.disney.mickey.toy.princess.naruto | 10:05 |
| kanzure | quite an app name | 10:05 |
| drethelin1 | foucist that seems like a dangerous idea | 10:11 |
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| kanzure | yashgaroth: yo | 10:46 |
| yashgaroth | sup | 10:46 |
| kanzure | something about antifreeze proteins again | 10:47 |
| yashgaroth | oh no not cryonics | 10:47 |
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| kanzure | http://randomshopper.tumblr.com/post/35454415921/randomized-consumerism | 12:08 |
| kanzure | "Well, I thought: what if I just wrote a program to buy stuff for me? The first iteration of this was going to be a program that bought me stuff that I probably would like." | 12:08 |
| kanzure | "But then I decided that was too boring. How about I build something that buys me things completely at random? Something that just… fills my life with crap?" | 12:08 |
| kanzure | perhaps this guy has too much money | 12:08 |
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| kanzure | 12:15 < docl> foucist: based on my wikipedia trawlings, adenovirus is bad because it provokes immune response. however adeno-associated virus (AAV) is benign and doesn't provoke as much immune response. | 12:16 |
| yashgaroth | "as much" | 12:24 |
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| kanzure | why are we splitting discussions into a second channel | 12:25 |
| docl | because the other channel has a cooler name :P | 12:34 |
| docl | and #lesswrong is off on a d&d tangent | 12:34 |
| docl | hopefully they will pull a decent rationality lesson out of it. | 12:35 |
| kanzure | yashgaroth: so how is jcline doing? i haven't seen him since 2009 | 12:36 |
| yashgaroth | he's got his own openpcr project going, no comment there | 12:36 |
| yashgaroth | he brought up your dna synth project and I was all 'yes I'm familiar with it' | 12:37 |
| yashgaroth | seems to be in an RNAi phase but I'm sure it'll pass | 12:37 |
| kanzure | he had a microfluidics project a few years back | 12:37 |
| kanzure | he was doing electrowetting on dielectrics to move droplets around in open atmosphere | 12:38 |
| yashgaroth | seemed interested in helping with the open spec project too | 12:38 |
| kanzure | last i heard he was working for some lab automation startup in san diego? | 12:40 |
| yashgaroth | probably, I'd no idea who he was at the time so it was just general bullshitting...but yes I think he mentioned something about robits | 12:42 |
| kanzure | yeah sorry about forgetting to introduce you to him | 12:42 |
| yashgaroth | quite alright; I don't think he'll be at the thing today, but I'm sure we'll encounter each other at the space | 12:44 |
| kanzure | he used to hang out in here | 12:44 |
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| kanzure | docl: http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/gene-therapy/ | 12:47 |
| docl | thanks | 12:48 |
| kanzure | if you find something worth adding to that folder please let me know | 12:48 |
| docl | will do. | 12:49 |
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| fenn | kinda wish he had implemented the recommendation engine. "buy me random crap" isn't even art, just .. defeatist. | 14:18 |
| fenn | maybe amazon will implement it for all the lonely millionaires out there | 14:18 |
| kanzure | fenn: http://directededge.com/ how about scott's stuff | 14:19 |
| kanzure | amazon's recommendation engine is surprisingly bad | 14:20 |
| fenn | woah cool movie my friend made of rotating bacterial cells http://garnerlab.fas.harvard.edu/index.html#&panel1-1 (is it sub-diffraction?) | 14:25 |
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| ThomasEgi | fenn, and that bacteria goes like "don't flip me bro" | 14:43 |
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| docl | http://www.scribd.com/doc/79736162/Cell-and-Organ-Printing | 15:04 |
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| fenn | huh i wonder if you can buy your own debt http://rollingjubilee.org/#faq | 15:08 |
| drethelin1 | I think viewing education as a basic neccesity is one of the worst failings in america | 15:10 |
| drethelin1 | also it looks like you can't buy any specific person's debt | 15:11 |
| fenn | yeah nobody is "forced into" college | 15:12 |
| fenn | but still, lots of young people are pressured into it, not knowing what they're getting into, essentially being lied to by institutions they're expected to trust | 15:12 |
| drethelin1 | they're not exactly lies | 15:12 |
| drethelin1 | because the institutions are also fooled | 15:13 |
| fenn | the banks know exactly what they're doing | 15:13 |
| docl | you sure the pressure to get people educated is a bug not a feature? | 15:13 |
| drethelin1 | the very idea that spending tens of thousands of dollars to get a english degree is useful is getting both sides | 15:13 |
| drethelin1 | the issue isn't "education" in general | 15:13 |
| fenn | when they tell you to get a private loan instead of a federal loan, that's in the banks best interest but fucks you over | 15:13 |
| drethelin1 | education is the applause light version of what's actually happening | 15:13 |
| drethelin1 | you can't argue against "education" just like it's hard to argue against "freedom" | 15:13 |
| drethelin1 | but the 4 year college system in the USA is a parody of learning | 15:14 |
| docl | you're saying that useful education and useless education are being conflated? | 15:14 |
| docl | e.g. STEM vs lit | 15:14 |
| fenn | i agree, but additionally there are predatory financial practices surrounding the educational system | 15:14 |
| drethelin1 | docl, yes | 15:14 |
| drethelin1 | also: education is being treated as something with intrinsic value | 15:15 |
| docl | isn't it? | 15:15 |
| drethelin1 | it's value is a function of the person and the other choices they make | 15:15 |
| fenn | "intrinsic value" is shaky philosophy | 15:15 |
| fenn | how much is gold worth | 15:15 |
| drethelin1 | many (possibly most) people don't need a college degree to live a happy life doing what they want | 15:15 |
| docl | the point of education is not so much the betterment of the individual (imho) but the spillover benefits for society. | 15:16 |
| drethelin1 | docl, that's a reasonable argument for public education in general but not for education as she is played | 15:16 |
| drethelin1 | eg there's no good evidence that society is made better off by a bunch of people spending 4 years getting drunk and getting a useless degree | 15:18 |
| drethelin1 | or even by learning most of the stuff that is taught in high school | 15:18 |
| docl | depends how they would have spent the 4 years otherwise | 15:18 |
| drethelin1 | current curriculums are far more an artifact of what the past thought was high status than what you would create in a vacuum to generate good citizens | 15:18 |
| drethelin1 | consider all the mandatory classes you have to take in college to become a "well rounded individual' | 15:18 |
| * fenn grumbles something about montessori education | 15:19 | |
| docl | so, bloatware essentially | 15:21 |
| drethelin1 | yeah I guess | 15:21 |
| docl | stuff that gets added, has to be kept for backwards compatibility and so forth, but you would never dream of adding it to a new system if you knew what you were doing. | 15:23 |
| drethelin1 | it's worse than that because stuff that got added 100 years ago eventually comes to be valued as a tradition etc. | 15:24 |
| drethelin1 | ie, people don't even admit that it's bad | 15:24 |
| docl | like football? | 15:24 |
| drethelin1 | football is a good example | 15:24 |
| fenn | marching band | 15:24 |
| drethelin1 | Marching band is at least not actively terrible | 15:24 |
| kanzure | i am confused, what are you arguing about | 15:24 |
| drethelin1 | we're not | 15:25 |
| drethelin1 | we're agreeing | 15:25 |
| drethelin1 | which is a bad sign | 15:25 |
| fenn | abstinence class? what's actively terrible? | 15:25 |
| drethelin1 | there's costs and there's opportunity costs | 15:25 |
| drethelin1 | football causes brain injuries etc. as costs | 15:25 |
| drethelin1 | marching band doesn't seem to impose costs like that on participants | 15:25 |
| fenn | well, it's one of the more pointless things i've ever done | 15:26 |
| docl | perhaps these things are natural tradeoffs for institutionality, which is in turn beneficial by resolving group coordination problems. | 15:26 |
| docl | can't just think one dimension on this stuff. | 15:27 |
| fenn | i'm interested in your ideas on what "should" be included in an educational curriculum | 15:27 |
| drethelin1 | I agree that institutions are valuable for that sort of effect but the problem comes when they calcify out of date values | 15:27 |
| kanzure | is there any actual useful post-grad level courses on opencourseware yet? | 15:27 |
| fenn | the electronics class looked okay | 15:28 |
| fenn | i decided the format wasn't for me | 15:28 |
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| kanzure | i am just tired of all the intro classes | 15:28 |
| drethelin1 | Fenn, depends on if we're talking the equivalent of high school/elementary or if we're talking about college stuff | 15:28 |
| kanzure | you really only need one "intro to philosoethics" class really | 15:28 |
| fenn | intro is a good start | 15:28 |
| drethelin1 | I think college stuff is a lot closer to good and would be fine if it wasn't functionally mandatory | 15:29 |
| kanzure | but why isn't there 900 level optics class on the list | 15:29 |
| kanzure | or, you know, the useful things | 15:29 |
| drethelin1 | kanzure, there are a lot more amateurs than knowledgeable people | 15:29 |
| fenn | well, the intro electronics class was actually quite advanced | 15:29 |
| drethelin1 | and they need ad revenue | 15:29 |
| drethelin1 | or whatever | 15:29 |
| kanzure | drethelin1: just because i am amateur doesn't mean i don't want all of the classes. fuck off. | 15:29 |
| fenn | http://ocw.mit.edu/courses/electrical-engineering-and-computer-science/6-002-circuits-and-electronics-spring-2007/ | 15:30 |
| kanzure | yeah i know about 6.002 | 15:30 |
| drethelin1 | presumably the worth of uploading any given class is a function of how much effort it takes versus how many people will then use it | 15:30 |
| drethelin1 | so if the effort is the same for all kinds of classes the ones with fewer targets will be less uploaded | 15:30 |
| kanzure | drethelin1: it is practically no effort for me to type transcripts, but for some reason i seem to be the only one that does it | 15:30 |
| kanzure | http://diyhpl.us/wiki/transcripts/ | 15:30 |
| kanzure | i think everyone else is just an asshole or something | 15:30 |
| fenn | also there are 900 level optics classes http://ocw.mit.edu/courses/electrical-engineering-and-computer-science/6-977-ultrafast-optics-spring-2005/ | 15:31 |
| kanzure | fenn: most of the content is just psets which is basically useless | 15:31 |
| kanzure | oh i see, lecture notes | 15:31 |
| fenn | it's not video lectures? | 15:31 |
| drethelin1 | clearly you should go ghost classes | 15:31 |
| drethelin1 | and upload transcripts | 15:31 |
| fenn | you have to sign up to take the class to see the content | 15:31 |
| kanzure | btw optics was just a random example i picked, but it looks like the content is thorough http://ocw.mit.edu/courses/electrical-engineering-and-computer-science/6-977-ultrafast-optics-spring-2005/lecture-notes/chapter1.pdf | 15:31 |
| kanzure | you mean there's videos for this one? i only see lecture noets | 15:32 |
| kanzure | notes | 15:32 |
| fenn | i dont know | 15:32 |
| fenn | just notes would be confusing without context | 15:32 |
| kanzure | well, notes seem to be more common than videos on ocw | 15:32 |
| fenn | the linked notes looks pretty standalone complete though, practically a textbook | 15:32 |
| fenn | also OCW doesnt need ad revenue | 15:35 |
| fenn | it's barely any cost at all to put the course notes up online | 15:35 |
| fenn | since the class is being taught anyway | 15:36 |
| drethelin1 | Sure but that's been true for years | 15:36 |
| drethelin1 | and it hasn't been happening | 15:36 |
| fenn | all OCW does is present a whole curriculum in a standardized format | 15:36 |
| drethelin1 | so there must be something that prevents people from doing it | 15:36 |
| fenn | it's just a coordination problem | 15:36 |
| docl | lots of professors put their notes and lectures online. | 15:36 |
| fenn | professors have been uploading course notes since the bbs days | 15:36 |
| fenn | and copyfight prevents people from aggregating them | 15:37 |
| docl | and darknet doesn't care enough? | 15:38 |
| kanzure | we are the darknet | 15:38 |
| docl | oh yeah | 15:39 |
| fenn | no, nobody gets "mad propz" for uploading publically available educational content | 15:39 |
| fenn | or whatever the motivation of warez groups is | 15:39 |
| docl | btw found a nice free calculus text: http://www.math.wisc.edu/~keisler/calc.html | 15:41 |
| fenn | bleh. how about "how to use mathematica" 101 | 15:41 |
| docl | see the reaction I get? :P | 15:42 |
| fenn | calculus has a reputation that goes far beyond its usefulness | 15:42 |
| docl | http://www.indiana.edu/~statmath/math/mma/gettingstarted/printable.pdf maybe | 15:43 |
| fenn | why are you linking to random math textbooks now? | 15:43 |
| fenn | oh i guess i should read the title :P | 15:44 |
| fenn | sigh.. /me adds "learn mathematica" to the todo list, right under "learn emacs again" | 15:45 |
| docl | the calc book starts with the concept of infinitesimals rather than limits. apparently calculus books have been doing it in the wrong order for hundreds of years. | 15:45 |
| fenn | alex graveley was trying to come up with a dependency tree for educational content | 15:46 |
| fenn | he basically took the lazy way out and just scraped wikipedia categories | 15:47 |
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| drethelin1 | heh | 15:47 |
| fenn | i'd like to see a fully fleshed out tree of math and science topics though, that would be something | 15:47 |
| fenn | i guess that's what "principia mathematica" was about | 15:48 |
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| kanzure | fenn: obviously we need a math/learning warez community | 15:49 |
| kanzure | actually, why the fuck isn't there a journal warez community | 15:50 |
| fenn | dunno, where do warez communities come from? | 15:50 |
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| kanzure | usenet? | 15:50 |
| fenn | there are lots of chinese students who trade papers textbooks and engineering programs | 15:51 |
| fenn | but i dont read chinese | 15:51 |
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| fenn | or math hieroglyphics it seems | 15:52 |
| chris_99 | i wonder, with mendeley.com you can see papers people have shared i think, so you could potentially nab a lot of papers from there | 15:52 |
| fenn | why can't they just use ascii characters | 15:52 |
| fenn | 127 letters ought to be enough for anybody! | 15:52 |
| chris_99 | haha | 15:53 |
| kanzure | endeley doesn't show the actual pdf | 15:53 |
| chris_99 | ah | 15:53 |
| kanzure | On Sat, Nov 17, 2012 at 4:04 AM, Nathan McCorkle <nmz787@gmail.com> wrote: | 15:54 |
| kanzure | > Looking at the soft lithography for microfluidics literature, they mention | 15:54 |
| kanzure | > silanizing the silicon or SU-8 master with some long-name gas. Is there a | 15:54 |
| kanzure | > chemical hood method, as the plasma chamber I have access to is for air or | 15:54 |
| kanzure | > oxygen only. | 15:54 |
| kanzure | > I'm guessing this silanization layer bonds to the master less than PDMS | 15:54 |
| kanzure | > curing against the master would? | 15:54 |
| fenn | they're both silane | 15:55 |
| fenn | well, siloxane, anyway | 15:55 |
| fenn | CVD is probably less porous than bulk chemical synthesis | 15:56 |
| fenn | any opinions on org mode vs other todo list systems? | 15:57 |
| kanzure | what is this http://aaaaarg.org/login | 15:58 |
| drethelin1 | register and find pout | 15:59 |
| fenn | american association for the advancement of age-related antipathy and related gerontology | 15:59 |
| kanzure | fenn is your brain ok | 16:00 |
| fenn | chocolate isn't really a substitute for piracetam, is it | 16:00 |
| fenn | i do need a good todo list solution though, preferably something ncurses based that is also a calendar and saves in a text based format | 16:01 |
| fenn | i've been using calcurse but it has some dumb design decisions. perhaps i could fix it; it is just python after all | 16:02 |
| kanzure | org-mode, yadda yadda | 16:02 |
| kanzure | hnb used to be nice until it wasn't | 16:02 |
| fenn | but org mode isnt a calendar? | 16:02 |
| fenn | tbh i havent read a lot about it | 16:02 |
| fenn | there are a lot of asterisks | 16:03 |
| fenn | oh there is a calendar view mode | 16:03 |
| kanzure | i'm pretty sure it's just a cleverly disguised "everything and the kitchen sink" thing | 16:04 |
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| fenn | well, whatever, as long as it has the requied features | 16:04 |
| fenn | i'm just dreading learning emacs again | 16:05 |
| fenn | last time i was fighting with lisp at the same time, perhaps just emacs on its own won't be so bad | 16:05 |
| kanzure | https://github.com/jceb/vim-orgmode | 16:06 |
| kanzure | and it's in python, so there's that | 16:06 |
| kanzure | https://github.com/jceb/vim-orgmode/blob/master/examples/plugins/PluginExample.py | 16:06 |
| fenn | of course this would exist | 16:07 |
| kanzure | "# vim: set noexpandtab:" oops well it turns out he's evil | 16:07 |
| fenn | by the "vim does that too" corollary | 16:07 |
| fenn | why should it care about tabs? | 16:07 |
| kanzure | it just means that he writes with tabs (and it's hard to tell on github's html display that they are tabs and not whitespace) | 16:08 |
| fenn | meh | 16:08 |
| fenn | as long as i dont have to use tabs i don't care | 16:08 |
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| upgrayeddd | hey, does anyone mind fetching me this paper from ACM as paperbot is down? http://dl.acm.org/citation.cfm?id=2384723&dl=ACM&coll=DL | 16:11 |
| fenn | upgrayeddd: http://fennetic.net/irc/p13-wimmer.pdf | 16:14 |
| fenn | not very much content in that paper | 16:15 |
| upgrayeddd | fenn: much obliged | 16:15 |
| upgrayeddd | yes it appears so | 16:15 |
| delinquentme | kanzure, thoughts on instantiating an R script from within ruby vrs js? | 16:15 |
| delinquentme | or fenn | 16:15 |
| fenn | eh? it's just a system call, either way | 16:17 |
| fenn | whichever is most convenient | 16:17 |
| upgrayeddd | there might already be a library out there that makes it easy, like pgfSweave for R scripts in LaTeX | 16:21 |
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| kanzure | fenn: wrong.. system calls are generally a bad idea if you're doing web applications like delinquentme is ostensibly working on | 17:10 |
| kanzure | fenn: what he should really do is make a task queue and then build a worker that consumes from the queue in whatever language | 17:10 |
| kanzure | however, calling r from latex sounds hilarious | 17:10 |
| delinquentme | except the front end application is instantly using feedback from the R script | 17:11 |
| delinquentme | academia likes to look at everything on a computer as homogenous :D | 17:11 |
| kanzure | i would still highly recommend a queue and workers even if the results are streamed in through websockets to the page | 17:12 |
| kanzure | you would just make these particular tasks very high priority | 17:12 |
| kanzure | the important thing is to decouple them from page rendering or responding to other http things | 17:12 |
| delinquentme | so the process is like this: click on google map, draw square via google map api, return lat + longitudes ... send lat + lng to R script to plow through 1 gig of data ... return array of biomes | 17:13 |
| kanzure | yeah that should be completely decoupled from an http request | 17:14 |
| kanzure | your js should poll an endpoint to ask if it's ready yet | 17:14 |
| kanzure | and that endpoint will wait for the task to finish | 17:14 |
| kanzure | when the task is done it should update the db and tell itself where the results are stored | 17:14 |
| kanzure | if the plowing takes a really really long time, then you might also consider sending an email reminder when it's ready | 17:14 |
| delinquentme | =p | 17:15 |
| delinquentme | were hoping it takes less than 1 second | 17:15 |
| delinquentme | awesome right? | 17:15 |
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| kanzure | we have a cs.yale.edu person in here? huh | 17:16 |
| fenn | oh just make a task queue and build a worker.. right.. | 17:18 |
| kanzure | sarcasm? | 17:19 |
| fenn | to call a script? i must be missing some context i guess | 17:19 |
| kanzure | well let's say that his service is using a single http server | 17:19 |
| kanzure | and there's two users | 17:19 |
| kanzure | suddenly this doubles the memory the http server is using for this mapping operation | 17:19 |
| kanzure | and the server is for http stuff, not number crunching | 17:19 |
| kanzure | so already things sound a bit weird, right? | 17:20 |
| fenn | he should have mentioned the "plow through 1 gig of data" part in the initial question | 17:21 |
| delinquentme | yeah theres a bit of data | 17:21 |
| delinquentme | and kanz is right thats a shit load of weight on a server ... especially once we're talking a number of users | 17:21 |
| kanzure | well, you missed the context a few months ago when he took on an awful rails job | 17:21 |
| fenn | sounds like a good educational experience | 17:22 |
| kanzure | so i sorta assumed it was some web application doing things it shouldn't | 17:22 |
| delinquentme | haha | 17:22 |
| delinquentme | yeah | 17:22 |
| delinquentme | @ fenn | 17:22 |
| delinquentme | not you kan! | 17:22 |
| kanzure | it's okay i know you hate me / don't listen to me | 17:22 |
| delinquentme | i mean applications are supposed to do what we want :D | 17:23 |
| fenn | anyway i think kanzure's advice makes sense | 17:23 |
| delinquentme | so maybe an API call to a dedicated crunchy server | 17:23 |
| kanzure | delinquentme: no | 17:23 |
| kanzure | i mean, that's better than your first solution | 17:23 |
| kanzure | but let's say you want to use more than one cruncy server | 17:23 |
| kanzure | *crunchy | 17:23 |
| kanzure | and what if you have more than one type of crunching in the future? | 17:23 |
| fenn | is delinquentme using heroku? i'm not really versed in how task queues work in general | 17:24 |
| delinquentme | fenn, nah its gonna be EC2 | 17:24 |
| kanzure | fenn: task queues are very easy to setup | 17:24 |
| delinquentme | we run crazy shit so ... yeah | 17:24 |
| delinquentme | heroku wont like us | 17:24 |
| delinquentme | kanzure, tutorial? | 17:24 |
| kanzure | since fenn likes python i would tell him to install celery and rabbitmq-server | 17:24 |
| kanzure | sudo apt-get install python-celery rabbitmq-server | 17:25 |
| kanzure | in rails-land it's a little less complicated because the queue and the messenger tend to be the same (redis/resque) | 17:25 |
| kanzure | heroku definitely supports both resque and celery | 17:26 |
| kanzure | fenn: http://docs.celeryproject.org/en/latest/userguide/workers.html | 17:27 |
| fenn | wow broken phones are cheap cheap | 17:27 |
| fenn | a heretofore untapped resource | 17:27 |
| kanzure | think of all that.. erm. computing power. | 17:28 |
| fenn | well for $20 buy it now/shipped i'm sure i can come up with something to do with it | 17:29 |
| fenn | some of these are $10 but they dont say what's wrong with them | 17:30 |
| fenn | apparently the $20 works but needs a battery (another $5) | 17:30 |
| kanzure | delinquentme: other thing to consider is if crunchy server breaks down or stops performing well. ideally your queue system will account for this and kick workers in the ass. | 17:31 |
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| kanzure | 17:59 < poincare101> The reason I'm asking is I need some kind of idea for research, and, my idea is basically caching on distributed file systems by predicting open()s based on previous actions | 18:00 |
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| fenn | ugh finally. the paypal "confirm address by mail" page: https://www.paypal.com/us/cgi-bin/webscr?cmd=_account-aac | 18:23 |
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| fenn | the first cat to become an executive of a railroad corporation: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tama_%28cat%29 | 21:10 |
| kanzure | fenn are you making career plans | 21:11 |
| fenn | the station roof looks suspiciously cat-like | 21:11 |
| fenn | i'm not sure i could live up to the responsibilities of a Super Station Master | 21:12 |
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