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| kanzure | nanosaur | 09:09 |
|---|---|---|
| nmz787 | quack quack | 09:10 |
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| Mariu | nanosaur xD | 09:45 |
| Mariu | =] | 09:45 |
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| chris_99 | i guess you guys have heard about this http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-20365355 | 10:17 |
| chris_99 | "Nose cell transplant enables paralysed dogs to walk" | 10:17 |
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| archels | chris_99: paper plz | 11:03 |
| chris_99 | alas, don't have a linky to that | 11:04 |
| nmz7871 | this is cool http://brain.oxfordjournals.org/content/early/2012/11/14/brain.aws295.short?rss=1 | 11:20 |
| nmz7871 | The cerebral cortex of Albert Einstein: a description and preliminary analysis of unpublished photographs | 11:20 |
| fenn | it looks like science, but is it repeatable? | 11:21 |
| nmz7871 | not unless you go back in time when albert was alive | 11:22 |
| fenn | and chop his brain up | 11:23 |
| nmz7871 | get 3scan on it | 11:23 |
| kanzure | 3scan should be stealing brains from museums | 11:24 |
| kanzure | todd is insufficiently willing to do what is necessary | 11:24 |
| fenn | i'm sure they have plenty of brains already | 11:24 |
| fenn | here's another fluff brain article http://discovermagazine.com/2012/oct/16-brutal-truths-about-the-aging-brain | 11:25 |
| kanzure | do you know what they are up to lately? | 11:25 |
| fenn | besides tama the cat, no | 11:25 |
| fenn | "The prototype is near completion! Stage wiggles! The camera images! Connecting bits are coming together! | 11:26 |
| fenn | Expect new data soon, until then..." | 11:26 |
| kanzure | wasn't that posted years ago? | 11:26 |
| fenn | actually that was quite a while ago | 11:26 |
| kanzure | yes | 11:26 |
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| fenn | i wonder why the standard way to report intelligence test results is a normalized quotient, rather than the raw scores | 11:39 |
| ParahSail1in | because it's measuring an ordinal, not cardinal property? | 11:41 |
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| * fenn looks up those words.. | 11:47 | |
| nmz7871 | anyone here know about silanization? | 11:47 |
| ParahSail1in | silanize what? | 11:48 |
| nmz7871 | silicon | 11:48 |
| kanzure | is this why you are playing with plasma chambers? | 11:49 |
| nmz7871 | someone on mems-talk is saying to silanize silicon with FDTS (fluorinated polymer with si-X group on end, where X is hydrolyzable) | 11:49 |
| nmz7871 | to prep the silicon for pouring PDMS silicone over to do mold replication | 11:49 |
| nmz7871 | aka soft lithography | 11:50 |
| nmz7871 | so i'm wondering if there is a shorter R-Si-X group | 11:50 |
| fenn | oh it's a mold release | 11:50 |
| ParahSail1in | i imagine FDTS would release PDMS | 11:50 |
| nmz7871 | kanzure: not exactly, oxygen plasma is required to regenerate silanol groups on the PDMS, and also clean the PDMS... prior to bonding | 11:51 |
| nmz7871 | the silanol groups bond to each other | 11:51 |
| nmz7871 | so you can bond 2 PDMS layers | 11:51 |
| nmz7871 | but is the mold release character because the F groups are unreactive toward the cross-linking PDMS? | 11:52 |
| nmz7871 | since you pour on the PDMS uncured, then allow it to cure before peeling off | 11:52 |
| fenn | it also might not stick to the mold | 11:52 |
| nmz7871 | well the other side is a silicon group, and you hydrolzye a halogen off it to get a silanol, which then bonds to the silanols on the silicon surface | 11:53 |
| fenn | but yeah, probably it sticks to silicon because you're freeing a silicon group | 11:53 |
| fenn | yarr | 11:55 |
| nmz7871 | right, but I'm wondering why the fluorinated polymer tail doesn't stick to PDMS | 11:55 |
| fenn | because it has huge orbitals | 11:55 |
| nmz7871 | just cause fluorine is so unreactive after its in the polymer form? | 11:55 |
| fenn | right | 11:55 |
| nmz7871 | hmm | 11:55 |
| nmz7871 | ok, so I might find a shorter chain release agent than FDTS | 11:55 |
| fenn | it's basically teflon | 11:55 |
| nmz7871 | in case I want to play with nanofluidics | 11:56 |
| nmz7871 | I'm also worried about boundary area chemistry, so I want things to be as smooth as possible | 11:56 |
| fenn | what does fdts stand for? | 11:56 |
| nmz7871 | 1H,1H,2H,2H-Perfluorodecyltrichlorosilane | 11:57 |
| nmz7871 | http://www.synquestlabs.com/product/id/23455.html | 11:57 |
| fenn | apparently FOTS (octyl) is often used as well, if that matters | 11:59 |
| nmz7871 | octo is shorter than decyl! | 11:59 |
| fenn | and PETS (aromatic side chain) | 11:59 |
| fenn | and shortest of all TMCS (3 methyl groups) | 12:00 |
| -!- Sanky is now known as Sanqui | 12:00 | |
| ParahSail1in | i dont think that would be as good of release agent | 12:01 |
| fenn | looks like the shorter chain molecules aren't as hydrophobic | 12:01 |
| docl | https://docs.google.com/open?id=0B9uXJVOTx_1qVXRoeUhkcmo1TzA (recently posted to GRG and forwarded to new cryonet) | 12:01 |
| ParahSail1in | you're trying to get one that doesnt need to be plasma deposited? | 12:01 |
| fenn | i dont think plasma is strictly necessary for this step | 12:02 |
| nmz7871 | well i found a lab locally for $20/hr, they have a fume evac hood and a plasma etcher with a connection for inlet gas, and a bell jar, oven, carbon plasma (soot coater), FIB, contact litho stuff | 12:03 |
| ParahSail1in | afaik fdts is done in a chemical vapor deposition of some sort | 12:03 |
| nmz7871 | so I want to be able to silanize in that setup | 12:03 |
| ParahSail1in | maybe you dont need fluorinated surface for release? | 12:04 |
| nmz7871 | ahh | 12:04 |
| nmz7871 | 1) Place your Si wafers (with no PDMS on them, this is just so you end | 12:04 |
| nmz7871 | up with a long fluorinated molecule sticking up from the surface so | 12:04 |
| nmz7871 | the PDMS will peel off easily later) in a vacuum desiccator connected | 12:04 |
| nmz7871 | to house vacuum (do a google image search for vacuum desiccator to see | 12:04 |
| nmz7871 | what these look like). 2) Place 10-20 uL of FDTS in a small container | 12:04 |
| nmz7871 | (the top of an eppendorf tube works well) in the bottom of the chamber | 12:04 |
| nmz7871 | (location doesn't matter much). 3) Pull house vacuum, and leave them | 12:04 |
| nmz7871 | for ~2 hours (exact time will be more or less depending on the vacuum | 12:04 |
| nmz7871 | strength and container size). 4) Bake the wafers at 110 for ~2 hours. | 12:04 |
| fenn | so the chlorine reacts somehow to make a silanol, is that just a reaction that happens between chloro-whatever and passivated silicon? | 12:04 |
| nmz7871 | no | 12:04 |
| nmz7871 | with the water in the air | 12:04 |
| nmz7871 | hydrolysis | 12:04 |
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| nmz7871 | i think | 12:06 |
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| nmz7871 | ahh yes, the OH replaces the Cl, and silanol and HCl is formed | 12:08 |
| nmz7871 | http://www.dowcorning.com/content/discover/discoverchem/chlorosilane-hydrolysis.aspx | 12:08 |
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| nmz7871 | so without the vacuum, the FDTS would just gel up on itself I think | 12:10 |
| fenn | i bet it has a small amount of chain reaction terminator added for shelf stability | 12:11 |
| fenn | the vacuum is to get all the air (and water in the air) out of the way | 12:12 |
| fenn | yeah i guess it would react in the eppendorf instead of on the surface | 12:12 |
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| nmz7871 | I junkpicked a silane catalog from these folks oddly enough http://www.gelest.com/GELEST/Forms/GeneralPages/literature.aspx | 12:13 |
| nmz7871 | it was a good junk find! | 12:14 |
| fenn | there arent that many silane manufacturers | 12:14 |
| nmz7871 | I imagine this same reaction is how PDMS crosslinks | 12:14 |
| ParahSail1in | oh yeah gelest, i used some of their silane coatings | 12:15 |
| ParahSail1in | i was trying to remember the name | 12:15 |
| ParahSail1in | nevermind, different | 12:16 |
| nmz7871 | fenn: this is a fun slideshow http://web.pdx.edu/~pmoeck/phy381/fib.pdf | 12:17 |
| fenn | for "full spectrum imaging" eh | 12:20 |
| fenn | so you can get volumetric mass spectrum images, that's pretty cool | 12:21 |
| nmz7871 | rev-engineer ICs | 12:21 |
| nmz7871 | i think you can even fix broken silicon wire traces | 12:22 |
| fenn | it would take forever to do a whole IC though | 12:22 |
| fenn | how do you ensure the slices are flat | 12:26 |
| fenn | different materials would sputter at different rates | 12:26 |
| nmz7871 | test area? | 12:26 |
| nmz7871 | and since its almost like a light beam in terms of focus and astigmatism, you can't dwell on an area too long | 12:27 |
| nmz7871 | or your beam gets wider as stuff ablates down | 12:27 |
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| fenn | but it erodes at different rates, you would end up with hills and valleys and think they were flat, giving a very distorted 3d image | 12:28 |
| nmz7871 | if you're doing ablation 3D spectroscopy? | 12:29 |
| fenn | maybe the difference isnt very large if you use high energy ions | 12:29 |
| nmz7871 | (or whatever its calleD) | 12:29 |
| nmz7871 | that's what i was thinking | 12:29 |
| nmz7871 | if you're looking at an IC, its gonna be mainly silicon, with varying dopant levels | 12:30 |
| nmz7871 | but maybe you could calibrate that out? | 12:30 |
| nmz7871 | you'd need some feedback via the mass spectrometer i guess | 12:30 |
| nmz7871 | you might be able to use low energy to map the surface first | 12:31 |
| nmz7871 | the imaging is accomplished just by secondary electron emission | 12:32 |
| nmz7871 | so you might be able to do a 3D line scanner type approach | 12:32 |
| nmz7871 | to determine flatness | 12:32 |
| fenn | it's probably just not important for the 2d stuff most people are doing | 12:33 |
| fenn | 2.5d at best | 12:33 |
| fenn | i was thinking biological speciments | 12:34 |
| nmz7871 | you should come up with that chirp grating image for me to play with | 12:34 |
| fenn | you want a svg? | 12:34 |
| nmz7871 | this guy said it takes a binary bitmap | 12:35 |
| fenn | well a bitmap is going to be ginormous | 12:35 |
| nmz7871 | but i recon i could take an SVG and export it however i wish | 12:35 |
| fenn | okay, should the svg be some number of inches per side? | 12:35 |
| fenn | one to one? | 12:36 |
| nmz7871 | umm, well the machine is in mm | 12:36 |
| nmz7871 | it can do 1 mm sq at a time | 12:36 |
| nmz7871 | in segments, but that is what the lenses dynamic range is | 12:37 |
| nmz7871 | but i dont know if the machine raster spacing is metric or SAE | 12:37 |
| fenn | derr.. so i hope it can stitch them together | 12:37 |
| nmz7871 | yes | 12:38 |
| nmz7871 | how big were you thinking this would be? | 12:38 |
| fenn | well it has to be visible, so larger than 1 mm | 12:38 |
| nmz7871 | heh | 12:38 |
| nmz7871 | thats like 10 hairs! | 12:38 |
| fenn | ideally 10 mm by 50 mm | 12:39 |
| fenn | 2 by 25 is an okay compromise | 12:39 |
| nmz7871 | well keep your ideal aspect ratio and we can start with 1mm x 5mm | 12:40 |
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| nmz7871 | hmm, so that fib.pdf says it has +-10nm beam registration between scans | 12:43 |
| nmz7871 | 2 inch by 2 inch mechanical stage translation, but doesn't give accuracy for that | 12:44 |
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| kanzure | xp_prg returns :\ | 13:13 |
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| nmz7871 | fenn where did you find the link for the aromatic PETS | 13:37 |
| nmz7871 | i cant find PETS SILANE | 13:37 |
| nmz7871 | or PETS PDMS | 13:37 |
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| fenn | nmz7871: the brochure on the left http://www.insurftech.com/stiction/index.html | 15:04 |
| fenn | so i've got a silly arithmetic problem | 15:04 |
| fenn | apparently i've become stupid since graduating high school and forgotten how to do math | 15:05 |
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| nmz7871 | sillify me | 15:06 |
| fenn | trying to rapidly reduce the line width to submicron level but not so fast that it clumps up at the end | 15:09 |
| fenn | i end up with either big bands the whole time or goes to zero instantly | 15:10 |
| fenn | i need something like a 1/x function | 15:10 |
| fenn | hold on, naming pictures to share | 15:10 |
| nmz7871 | fenn http://docs.scipy.org/doc/scipy/reference/signal.html#waveforms | 15:13 |
| nmz7871 | maybe that? | 15:13 |
| fenn | as i have it, each line width changes like so: i = i ** (exponent * math.log(n)**gamma) | 15:16 |
| fenn | n is each iteration | 15:16 |
| kanzure | is it this? | 15:16 |
| kanzure | http://fennetic.net/irc/chirp_mask/chirp_color_exp0.8_gamma-0.01.png | 15:16 |
| kanzure | maybe that's what you want | 15:16 |
| fenn | here's some example values and the images they result | 15:16 |
| fenn | yes thank you kanzure~ | 15:17 |
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| fenn | stuff in that directory | 15:17 |
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| fenn | exponent 0.99 gamma -0.02 looks okay ish but the function itself seems wrong, like it takes a nose dive | 15:24 |
| fenn | oops i changed the function, derr | 15:25 |
| kanzure | live action fist of the north star is reasonably good http://youtube.com/watch?v=bXcmG2uvgRY#t=21m37s | 15:29 |
| nmz7871 | that asian guy was in the movie Hook | 15:31 |
| drethelin1 | Rufio | 15:31 |
| nmz7871 | and i thought that was about astronomy | 15:31 |
| kanzure | yeah it even has malcom mcdowell | 15:32 |
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| kanzure | as ryuken | 15:33 |
| nmz7871 | http://goodfet.sourceforge.net/hardware/facedancer11/ | 15:33 |
| nmz7871 | 'Unlike the general-purpose GoodFET boards, the only purpose of this board is to allow USB devices to be written in host-side Python, so that one workstation can fuzz-test the USB device drivers of another host. The board is functionally identical to the Facedancer10, correcting only minor errata.' | 15:34 |
| kanzure | there was another thing recently like that.. python remotely controlling various boardds | 15:34 |
| kanzure | *boards | 15:34 |
| fenn | i suppose this would make sense if i knew what "fuzz test" meant | 15:35 |
| kanzure | iterate through all possible inputs in the hopes of finding a security flaw | 15:35 |
| fenn | is this basically just a gigamonkey? | 15:36 |
| fenn | “If you put a billion monkeys in front of a billion typewriters typing at random, they would reproduce the entire collected works of Usenet … in about five minutes.” | 15:36 |
| fenn | i still dont get it | 15:38 |
| nmz7871 | you can define what USB device the USB chip presents itself to a host, as defined by a python program that it intreprets | 15:39 |
| nmz7871 | so the board can present as a keyboard and send keypresses | 15:39 |
| fenn | i thought it was a jtag adapter? what the fuck is this supposed to do? | 15:40 |
| nmz7871 | or it can say its an external harddrive | 15:40 |
| nmz7871 | albeit with a very small capacity | 15:40 |
| nmz7871 | well it say's its unlike the goodFET | 15:40 |
| nmz7871 | http://travisgoodspeed.blogspot.com/2012/07/emulating-usb-devices-with-python.html | 15:41 |
| nmz7871 | 'we came to the conclusion that while libusb and python-usb make it easy to prototype USB host-side applications, there wasn't really anything handy for prototyping device-side applications. So the next afternoon, we wired a MAX3421 EVK into the GoodFET41. This allows us to write USB devices entirely in host-side Python, fuzzing for device-driver vulnerabilities wherever we like.' | 15:42 |
| chris_99 | thats a funky little idea | 15:42 |
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| nmz7871 | 'The C firmware running on the MSP430 is intentionally kept as minimal as possible, with complexity pushed to the Python client in order to speed development and prevent the need for reflashing during development. This is perfectly fine for emulating USB devices, as kernels seem very tolerant of delays in responses. Additionally, the MAX3420 handles all fast-reaction timings itself, so our round-trip overheads don't create | 15:45 |
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| nmz7871 | 'hile HID is a favorite first example for USB, it's not very closely related to the devices you'll see in the field. For one thing, it only uses a single IN endpoint and no OUT endpoints. For another, there are dozens of open source firmware implementations already available. As such, I've also included an emulator for the FTDI chip, which I based upon the documentation in OpenBSD'suftdireg.h and a few quick peeks at the | 15:48 |
| nmz7871 | hile==while | 15:48 |
| nmz7871 | http://www.flickr.com/photos/travisgoodspeed/7211571882/ | 15:49 |
| nmz7871 | heh | 15:49 |
| nmz7871 | he found a bug in libusb before even making it to Hello World (unintentional fuzzing) | 15:49 |
| chris_99 | heh | 15:51 |
| nmz7871 | 'e're happy to send them out for free to the funemployed, but please properly format your shipping address.' | 15:52 |
| nmz7871 | I think I'm funemployed | 15:52 |
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| nmz7871 | having wider pixel count makes it seem like i have less tabs, since theyre less smashed together! | 16:49 |
| kanzure | use vertical tabs | 16:49 |
| kanzure | https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/tree-style-tab/ | 16:50 |
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| kanzure | "Gary Daniels enjoyed his role so much in Fist of the North Star that he namd one of his sons Kenshiro." | 17:03 |
| kanzure | seems to be true.. https://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=100000719976258 | 17:04 |
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| fenn | inkscape shits its pants on these diffraction gratings | 18:00 |
| kanzure | i'm never quite certain if inkscape remembers that i told it the document is 100x100 mm | 18:01 |
| fenn | nmz7871: so let me get this straight.. if i want a diffraction grating with 100 nm lines, that means your bitmap will be 50000 pixels | 18:05 |
| fenn | well, 100000 pixels | 18:06 |
| kanzure | why is it bitmap only? | 18:06 |
| fenn | because it's basically a television set | 18:07 |
| fenn | like a CRT | 18:07 |
| fenn | i think my evaluation process leaves a bit to be desired | 18:11 |
| fenn | i'm looking at these masks on a lcd screen | 18:11 |
| fenn | more or less randomly coloring the output | 18:12 |
| fenn | i guess what i really need is a simulation of the diffraction | 18:12 |
| fenn | right now the "best" looking grating has only 3000 lines, 1.5e-6mm to .004mm, average pitch of .0004mm | 18:13 |
| fenn | but half of those lines are crammed into the first 10 microns | 18:14 |
| fenn | well, anyway, it's a thing | 18:15 |
| fenn | warning may annoy your rendering engine: http://fennetic.net/irc/chirp_mask/chirp_bw_k1e-05_gamma1.3.svg | 18:16 |
| fenn | oh damn it crashed firefox | 18:16 |
| fenn | don't click that link, sorry | 18:16 |
| kanzure | "Live in the future, then build what's missing." | 18:17 |
| kanzure | "When something annoys you, it could be because you're living in the future." | 18:17 |
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| fenn | blah i give up | 18:52 |
| fenn | nmz7871: please etch this one: http://fennetic.net/irc/chirp_mask/chirp_bw_k1e-05_gamma1.7.png | 18:52 |
| fenn | (the svg file of course) | 18:53 |
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| nmz7871 | k | 20:02 |
| nmz7871 | that first link didnt crash chrome in win7 | 20:02 |
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| --- Log closed Tue Nov 20 00:00:21 2012 | ||
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