| --- Log opened Tue Dec 25 00:00:10 2012 | ||
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| @fenn | Agutuk, fish/berry with seal oil (alaskan ice cream) | 01:48 |
|---|---|---|
| JayDugger | Mock that up with coconut oil, canned tuna, and frozen blueberries. | 01:54 |
| JayDugger | I suspect that would taste better than Agutuk. | 01:55 |
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| JayDugger | I have all those ingredients in the kitchen. | 02:02 |
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| @fenn | what the hell are you talking about, seal oil isn't anything like canned tuna | 02:18 |
| @fenn | oh, sorry. it doesn't actually have fish in the recipe | 02:19 |
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| @fenn | or maybe it does. seems to be similar to pemmican | 02:24 |
| @fenn | "Then after you’re done looking for the bones you add Crisco, whip it up together with your hand or the blender until it’s thick, add sugar and evaporated can milk, whip until the sugar dissolves." | 02:27 |
| @fenn | somehow i doubt that's the traditional recipe | 02:27 |
| archels | *involuntary gag* | 02:31 |
| @fenn | i used to make stuff like that when i was a kid, trying to make ice cream (never did figure it out) | 02:32 |
| archels | http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=pL6DczbeKpM#! | 02:42 |
| @fenn | any links to christmas music should be preceded with a clear warning | 02:46 |
| archels | hey, I could have pasted some sort of gangnam style conflation. | 02:48 |
| @fenn | that's okay, i wouldn't have watched that either | 02:48 |
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| juri_ | ./win 35 | 03:38 |
| juri_ | er. ;) | 03:38 |
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| archels | hi yorick | 03:58 |
| yorick | hi | 04:17 |
| archels | what's new and happening in the Lower Lands? | 04:17 |
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| jennie | Hello dear members, merry christmas | 04:58 |
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| archels | Max Payne 3 requires 30 GB of disk space?! | 05:59 |
| archels | yes, yes it does. crap. | 06:01 |
| ThomasEgi | maybe they just forgot to add that part in the title "Max Disk Usage Payne 3" | 06:43 |
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| @kanzure | https://github.com/alevchuk/vim-clutch | 08:27 |
| @kanzure | "VIM Clutch is a hardware pedal for improved text editing speed for users of the magnificent VIM text editor (1, 2)." | 08:27 |
| @kanzure | "When the pedal is pressed down, the pedal types "i" causing VIM to go into Insert Mode. When released, it types <Esc> and you are back in Normal Mode." | 08:27 |
| @kanzure | no vim scripts in the repo though | 08:34 |
| @kanzure | guess there doesn't have to be. but why bother naming it vim-anything. | 08:35 |
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| @kanzure | http://www.minispaceworld.com/ "the spectacular scale model world for space flight and astronomy" | 10:28 |
| @kanzure | screw disneyland, i wanna go to that | 10:28 |
| @kanzure | http://www.miniatur-wunderland.com/ | 10:29 |
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| kirka | Hi, kanzure | 12:26 |
| @kanzure | what | 12:26 |
| kirka | kanzure, looks like a potential new developer for NE1: http://www.reddit.com/r/nanotech/comments/153l6g/how_close_or_far_away_are_we_from_reaching_eric_k/ | 12:26 |
| kirka | >I hope I will be able to contribute to the community. | 12:27 |
| @kanzure | stop reading reddit | 12:27 |
| @kanzure | when he says "contribute" he means "to reddit" | 12:27 |
| @kanzure | "This software was supposed to be open source, and free for the public, but I can't find it anywhere (I may just be incompetent)." | 12:27 |
| @kanzure | i doubt this guy would be a developer | 12:27 |
| @kanzure | the git repo is pasted all over the place on the web.. how could a developer not find it. i'm highy skeptical. | 12:28 |
| kirka | Maybe | 12:29 |
| kirka | That's good arguments | 12:29 |
| @kanzure | it's even posted in the comments | 12:29 |
| kirka | I posted it | 12:29 |
| @kanzure | i know. that's why i mentioned it. | 12:30 |
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| @kanzure | i think his name is adam hall | 12:31 |
| @kanzure | "##hplusroadmap @ irc.freenode.org" is wrong.. it's irc.freenode.net | 12:32 |
| joshcryer | Smalley was right, that's what happened. | 12:32 |
| @kanzure | no, what happened was that mark decided to stop dumping money into nanorex | 12:33 |
| kirka | I can understand Mark, he wasn't big millionaire | 12:33 |
| @kanzure | yes he is | 12:33 |
| @kanzure | wtf dude. | 12:34 |
| kirka | I thought von Ehr was richer | 12:34 |
| @kanzure | i'm pretty sure mark made a few hundred million in the 90s selling an ftp company | 12:34 |
| kirka | Wow | 12:34 |
| kirka | joshcryer I think "Mark Modzelewski" and "Nanobusiness alliance" happened | 12:36 |
| @kanzure | "Netrex, which reported revenue of $21.8 million for the year ended December 31, 1998, has over 500 customers." | 12:36 |
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| kirka | kanzure Ok | 12:37 |
| joshcryer | It's like string theory. Why no progress? Because it's a bunk approach. :) | 12:37 |
| kirka | kanzure But it's hard to find anything about him | 12:38 |
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| @kanzure | so it was for 2.45M shares of ISS in august 1998 | 12:39 |
| @kanzure | somehow i doubt this is going to add up to a hundred million | 12:39 |
| @kanzure | aha "The pooling-of-interest transaction makes the deal worth $57 million." | 12:39 |
| kirka | So you estimate his wealth at ~20M$? | 12:40 |
| @kanzure | well. i was wrong. anyway, he had enough resources. | 12:40 |
| kirka | They are so secretive, these CEOs | 12:40 |
| kirka | btw DNA ion channel was designed in Autodesk's caDNAno | 12:41 |
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| kirka | Though they mention it only once | 12:41 |
| kirka | In that paper | 12:41 |
| kirka | kanzure Shouldn't GNU and OSS guys be interested in NE1? | 12:42 |
| kirka | Or they are just afraid of technical things? | 12:42 |
| kirka | https://engineering.purdue.edu/~qobi/ this man is a wizard | 12:44 |
| joshcryer | Interest in hacking on GNU or OSS software is directly proportional to the use the hacker gets out of it or the interest in it with the community at large. | 12:59 |
| joshcryer | kirka, yeah that guy made Stalin. Fucking smart dude. | 13:00 |
| kirka | Stalin is a very cool compiler, yes | 13:00 |
| kirka | He also made MacPitts silicon compiler | 13:01 |
| kirka | joshcryer What's your position on MNT? | 13:02 |
| joshcryer | kirka, I think microtechnology and macrotechnology is more useful toward making replicators and the like. | 13:02 |
| joshcryer | kirka, I think MNT has its uses within biology and circuit design. But I think it's very limited. | 13:03 |
| kirka | Do you have physical analysis supporting this claim? | 13:04 |
| kirka | >This, to me, leads to a simple strategic question: Would it not be better to first produce a working von-Neumann machine on the macro-scale (a clanking replicator), and then (perhaps) think about how it could be reduced to smaller scales? | 13:04 |
| kirka | reminds me of these comments | 13:04 |
| joshcryer | kirka, I do not have a physical analysis confirming or denying the claim. All I have are words from a nobel prize winner. An argument from authority, I admit, but I don't have any more information than that. | 13:05 |
| kirka | That's fair. | 13:05 |
| kirka | Ok | 13:05 |
| joshcryer | kirka, as far as macro->micro->nano, I think that's a great approach. | 13:05 |
| joshcryer | kirka, which is why imo what we need is a way to design factories at the macro scale. | 13:06 |
| joshcryer | And, if it can scale down, without hitting the enzyme barrier that Smalley talked about, then we're golden. Note: I do not rule that out, I just haven't hard of it before. | 13:06 |
| kirka | I mean that's fair to say this from the beginning (so there is no needless dispute) | 13:06 |
| kirka | joshcryer You know stalin, aren't you into lisp/scheme then? | 13:09 |
| joshcryer | kirka, yeah, I like Scheme. | 13:11 |
| kirka | That's cool, I like it too | 13:11 |
| joshcryer | I'm probably the dumbest person here though. qobi / Siskind's name just stood out. | 13:11 |
| joshcryer | (he was responsible for getting Scheme on that Programming Language Shootout page and taught me a lot about how continuation passing style is super efficient) | 13:12 |
| joshcryer | (getting Scheme a high rank on the Programming Language Shootout page, I should say) | 13:12 |
| kirka | You knew him in person? | 13:12 |
| joshcryer | No, no... | 13:14 |
| kirka | Cool anyway | 13:14 |
| joshcryer | And it doesn't even look like Stalin features on that site anymore. | 13:14 |
| kirka | Programming Language Shootout ? | 13:14 |
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| joshcryer | Just a petty /. era argumentitive tool: http://benchmarksgame.alioth.debian.org/index.php | 13:15 |
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| kirka | I know it | 13:16 |
| joshcryer | Stalin uses continuation passing style to optimize the fuck out of the program and that's how I learned about CPS. | 13:16 |
| joshcryer | (to clarify about being "taught" about CPS) | 13:17 |
| kirka | I understand CPS, nut don't quite see how it can help in optimizing. I guess I should read more papers about it. | 13:17 |
| kirka | *but | 13:17 |
| joshcryer | It's basically a goto. | 13:18 |
| kirka | Aha | 13:18 |
| joshcryer | I say basically because it's a bit more complicated than that and I bet if I were in #scheme I'd be getting trashed. :P | 13:19 |
| kirka | But why is it more effivient than implicit stack based transfer of control flow (like e.g C does that) | 13:20 |
| kirka | I understand that formallu continuation is a state of computational process | 13:20 |
| kirka | And calling it means return to that state | 13:20 |
| kirka | And how we can transform every function to take continuation arguemnt explicitly | 13:20 |
| joshcryer | First class continuations as I understand it are implicit stack based transfer. | 13:21 |
| joshcryer | That's where continuation passing style comes in, every procedure (function) passes the parameters. | 13:21 |
| kirka | But how does it make optimisations more efficient? | 13:22 |
| joshcryer | I don't really know, to be honest, I was going to BS out an answer, but I just know how you do it, not why architectures tend to find it more efficient. | 13:24 |
| kirka | Ok thanks | 13:24 |
| joshcryer | I found a fascinating article on this let me see if I can find it again. | 13:25 |
| kirka | Ok | 13:25 |
| kirka | I have to write a compiler at least once in my life anyway :) | 13:26 |
| kirka | So that'll be useful information | 13:26 |
| joshcryer | This isn't it but this is a nice overview of the history which is a neat read if you're bored: ftp://ftp.cs.cmu.edu/user/jcr/histcont.pdf | 13:27 |
| kirka | Ok | 13:27 |
| joshcryer | kirka, here it is, it's a really fun read: http://www.cs.indiana.edu/~jsobel/c455-c511.updated.txt | 13:29 |
| kirka | Aha, reading it | 13:30 |
| joshcryer | kirka, Mark Feeley did a 90 minute Scheme to C compiler thing, too, if you're interested. But I am sure you want to go it without having your hand being held. | 13:30 |
| kirka | I have read it | 13:30 |
| kirka | And most of SICP | 13:31 |
| kirka | And some other papers | 13:31 |
| kirka | Writing simple compiler doesn't look difficult to me | 13:31 |
| joshcryer | Still haven't completed SICP. I don't think I'm worthy of this channel until I do. ;) | 13:31 |
| kirka | For me it turned out that I knew most of SICP's ideas when I read it | 13:32 |
| kirka | There are some cool left inside though | 13:32 |
| kirka | *cool ideas | 13:32 |
| joshcryer | I'll have to start over. | 13:33 |
| kirka | Inetersting | 13:37 |
| joshcryer | I haven't coded much in the past 5 years I've been coming here. | 13:37 |
| kirka | Brute function calls aren't always necessary | 13:38 |
| kirka | Why? | 13:38 |
| joshcryer | Busy with work, and being too tired to do any real brain activity. | 13:38 |
| * kirka wants himself an interesting work | 13:39 | |
| joshcryer | Construction is about as least interesting as you can get. | 13:40 |
| kirka | I think being manager or clerk or something is much more boring | 13:41 |
| kirka | Construction is a real job after all | 13:41 |
| @kanzure | clerk/manager is a real job too. do you think people imagine it? | 13:42 |
| kirka | I think that a large percent of management jobs is unnecessary | 13:42 |
| kirka | It can be automated with algorithms and expert systems | 13:43 |
| @kanzure | have you ever done management work? | 13:43 |
| kirka | I know some guys who do | 13:43 |
| @kanzure | maybe they are just really bad at it | 13:43 |
| jrayhawk | 12:41 < kirka> Well, about MNT: | 13:44 |
| jrayhawk | 12:41 < kirka> There should be a forum | 13:44 |
| jrayhawk | kirka: I have a forumish thing up on diyhpl.us now; did you want forum creation powers | 13:44 |
| jrayhawk | http://diyhpl.us/sympa/arc/diyhplus-admin | 13:44 |
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| kirka | jrayhawk I don't know | 13:44 |
| kirka | A mailing list? | 13:45 |
| kirka | kanzure Well, in US economy is different, you are right | 13:45 |
| @kanzure | i said nothing about it being different | 13:45 |
| jrayhawk | A mailing list in the sense that it is able to send people mail, yes | 13:45 |
| jrayhawk | at no point is sending mail actually a requirement | 13:45 |
| kirka | kanzure Here a lot of management jobs are just a way to redistribute oil money | 13:46 |
| jrayhawk | well, except for account signup, i guess | 13:46 |
| @kanzure | "redistributing money" is still a job. you said it wasn't real. | 13:46 |
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| joshcryer | I would agree that cubical work is less interesting, but it offers the opportunity to slack off more, so you can browse pointless websites all day. | 13:46 |
| kirka | By "real" I mean "useful and contributing to economy" | 13:46 |
| @kanzure | you have a very bizarre definition of real :) | 13:46 |
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| joshcryer | Pfft, money isn't real... or it shouldn't be! | 13:47 |
| jrayhawk | producing value vs optimizing value, presumably | 13:47 |
| kirka | We call them "office Plankton" | 13:47 |
| @kanzure | i suspect you've never had a good manager | 13:47 |
| kirka | I'm a student :) | 13:47 |
| jrayhawk | kanzure: instead of the baloneymonster should i just grab your gnusha logo | 13:48 |
| kirka | baloneymonster is weird, heh | 13:48 |
| @kanzure | jrayhawk: yes, but for the record it's ybit's gnusha monster | 13:48 |
| jrayhawk | needs more spinning, but I *guess* it'll do. | 13:49 |
| @kanzure | http://gnusha.org/skdb/images/gnusha.svg | 13:49 |
| @kanzure | http://gnusha.org/skdb/images/gnusha.png | 13:49 |
| @kanzure | "what does any of this have to do with hashing!!" | 13:49 |
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| kirka | joshcryer What do you think of automatic construction? I actually know some guys that make R&D on self-driving bulldozers for one large corporation. | 13:50 |
| joshcryer | kirka, I think it's where we're heading. | 13:52 |
| @kanzure | i doubt it | 13:52 |
| @kanzure | prefab would be more likely to become popular first | 13:52 |
| joshcryer | kirka, China has been playing with pre-fabbed stuff and robots can deal with pre-fabbed easier than not. | 13:52 |
| kirka | Is it slowed down because of low wages? (in Russia most construction workers are immigrants that have 150-250$ per month and are happy with that) | 13:52 |
| joshcryer | kirka, somewhat not related but AU has whole mining operations that are remotely mined, with robots, and only a few on site mechanics who don't do much. | 13:54 |
| joshcryer | kirka, but it seems we have a housing glut where people can afford houses. | 13:55 |
| kirka | In the last decade China workers' wages gone up and manufacturing is becoming more automated (and some companies are outsourcing their monufacturing into Thailand etc were wages are still low) | 13:55 |
| joshcryer | So for it to be developed would require actionable effort as opposed to waiting for the markets to do it, imo. | 13:55 |
| kirka | Cool | 13:56 |
| kirka | By "effort" you mean enterprise or government initiative? | 13:56 |
| joshcryer | kirka, I want to make an automated sewing machine that can take designs and spit out a product. :D | 13:57 |
| joshcryer | kirka, effort being enterprise, government, open hardware initiatives, whatever, but not some supply and demand thing. Because, if you look at China, they can't afford to have their labor pool liquidated, so they won't move past prefab for the time being. | 13:57 |
| kirka | I'm fascinated by automation too | 13:57 |
| kirka | But I think that large scale automation golden age was 1980-1990 when there were thoughts to automate mass-production | 13:58 |
| kirka | Fanuc unmanned factory etc | 13:59 |
| kirka | Maybe I'm wrong | 14:01 |
| joshcryer | Not sure when Fanuc kicked up but their approach is precision control. If you used their method to make, say, t-shirts, every single t-shirt would be identical, down to the thread count. | 14:03 |
| kirka | Position based control is old, I agree. Today's most promising systems use force control and complex feedback (e.g. visual) | 14:04 |
| kirka | http://www.rethinkrobotics.com/index.php/products/baxter/ | 14:04 |
| kirka | Rodney Brooks designed a good machine | 14:04 |
| joshcryer | These guys too: http://www.willowgarage.com/ | 14:05 |
| kirka | Aha | 14:05 |
| kirka | Actuators and precise mechanics make the largest part of cost (and low production numbers) | 14:07 |
| joshcryer | I just finished reading this paper on Device Human Resolution: http://iihm.imag.fr/publs/2011/INTERACT11_berard_threshold.pdf | 14:15 |
| joshcryer | It sort of confirms basically my thoughts on this subject. | 14:15 |
| joshcryer | You don't need precise actuators or motors for menial tasks but for refined tasks you might. But humans can't get below .01 mm (without time going up) doing refined tasks (like moving a mouse), but doing free space movement or stylus movement, it's much worse (see page 118 of that paper or 12 in your PDF reader). | 14:17 |
| joshcryer | One thing I learned while working on a production line is that the production lines are designed with ones specific accuracy in mind. | 14:18 |
| kirka | I think that in e.g. assembly operations force control greatly helps to guide parts into their designed position (potential well of sort). As in moving screw into a hole - there is no need to know precise position of the hole, you just oush screw and move it in right direction until it snaps | 14:20 |
| kirka | *push | 14:20 |
| * joshcryer agrees completely | 14:21 | |
| joshcryer | Yep, snapping stuff into place, and the like. | 14:21 |
| kirka | There was some research on assembling compex devices with robotic manipulators | 14:21 |
| kirka | I think we could design our objects to be easily assembled in that manner by robots | 14:22 |
| joshcryer | Many automated factories exploit that, even. | 14:22 |
| joshcryer | But they're hand designed by some smart guy who's been doing industrial engineering for ages. | 14:22 |
| joshcryer | And who probably does trial and error until the system works flawlessly at a high speed. | 14:22 |
| kirka | Maybe there should be automated software for designing like that | 14:22 |
| joshcryer | I know that at our packing plant the printing machine could operate at an absurdly high speed. | 14:22 |
| joshcryer | But if it was miscalibrated just a tiny bit we wound up having to 'toss' whole batches. | 14:23 |
| joshcryer | kirka, that is what I am thinking, but I think it will require a lot of research to figure out how to make said software. ie, you give it a component and it iterates out possible mass production methods. | 14:24 |
| joshcryer | (or at the minimum uses some basic known techniques to get you started) | 14:24 |
| kirka | yes, that could be several man-years of works or more | 14:24 |
| kirka | *work | 14:24 |
| * joshcryer agrees | 14:24 | |
| kirka | I know some similar software | 14:25 |
| joshcryer | What's it called? | 14:25 |
| kirka | >Kristoffer Kvello, House Designer - using Knowledge Based Engineering and Lisp to automatically design buildings | 14:25 |
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| joshcryer | Ahh, nice. | 14:25 |
| kirka | http://www.bluethink.com/ | 14:25 |
| kirka | Oops | 14:25 |
| kirka | http://weitz.de/eclm2008/Selvaag%20Bluethink%20House%20Designer%20-%20ECLM%202008.ppt | 14:25 |
| kirka | http://weitz.de/eclm2008/ | 14:26 |
| kirka | That's probably more simple thing | 14:26 |
| kirka | But they place rooms, doors, windows, plumbing using constrant satisfaction | 14:26 |
| kirka | They place plumbing and cables for manufacturability | 14:26 |
| joshcryer | Will have to use Google Quick View since I haven't got a .ppt reader installed (recently reinstalled Windows). | 14:27 |
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| kirka | If someone solved that problem (or at least made a demo) I think he could be easily hired by Dassault systems or other CAD vendor | 14:29 |
| eudoxia | hey kirka | 14:30 |
| kirka | HI, eudoxia | 14:30 |
| eudoxia | kanzure, what was the last time you saw cpopell here | 14:33 |
| jrayhawk | --- Day changed Fri Nov 23 2012 | 14:39 |
| jrayhawk | 16:56 -!- cpopell [ad4908a0@gateway/web/freenode/ip.173.73.8.160] has joined ##hplusroadmap | 14:39 |
| jrayhawk | 16:57 -!- cpopell [ad4908a0@gateway/web/freenode/ip.173.73.8.160] has quit [Client Quit] | 14:39 |
| eudoxia | thanks jrayhawk | 14:39 |
| jrayhawk | which i guess is an indication that i should throw a search interface at the logs | 14:40 |
| eudoxia | i considered greping my logs my they are horribly outdated; i should write a script to download them every day | 14:40 |
| jrayhawk | need more efficient distributability. | 14:43 |
| jrayhawk | i should merge them into the diyhpl.us wiki, clearly | 14:43 |
| jrayhawk | that gives me free access to Ikiwiki's Omega interface *and* allows people to just git pull to catch up | 14:44 |
| jrayhawk | it's a flawless plan. right up until we get a loop due to the commit announcement bot. | 14:45 |
| eudoxia | oh i hadn't thought about that, haha | 14:46 |
| kirka | btw eudoxia Quantum celullar automata seems a simple and fast molecular logic technology | 15:00 |
| eudoxia | i'm going to need a source | 15:01 |
| kirka | http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quantum_dot_cellular_automaton | 15:02 |
| kirka | It's simple | 15:02 |
| kirka | It's classical actually | 15:03 |
| kirka | In logic sense | 15:03 |
| eudoxia | oh, i get what you mean now, with the classical thing | 15:04 |
| eudoxia | yeah | 15:04 |
| eudoxia | wait a second i'm not so sure | 15:04 |
| kirka | Transitions? :) | 15:04 |
| @kanzure | win 5 | 15:06 |
| @kanzure | dfjklajs; | 15:06 |
| * kirka sleeps | 15:16 | |
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| @kanzure | the thinkpad's capslock key is on the right side of the key (under your hand). why did anyone think this was a good idea? | 15:25 |
| @kanzure | *capslock key light | 15:25 |
| joshcryer | Disable capslock or make it a shift key. | 15:30 |
| @kanzure | if i create a socket under kvm emulation, is that socket going to be owned by the owner of the kvm emulation instance or is it considered owned by the kernel? | 15:51 |
| juri_ | i think it will matter how you create it. i'm thinking by the emulation instance owner... | 16:12 |
| juri_ | normally, you don't have facilities to just crete sockets that are visible outside of the instance, except through a networking link. | 16:12 |
| juri_ | and then, the concept of ownership reflects where the network link terminates. | 16:13 |
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| AgeVivo | hello, I'm new here and I am coming for a personal project, that I think many here may share: | 16:25 |
| AgeVivo | I would like to play with genetic changes at home | 16:25 |
| AgeVivo | More precisely, I would like to use the now very famous TALE technique on cells | 16:26 |
| AgeVivo | If I am not the only one interested perhaps we could collectively develop a "TALE@home toolkit" | 16:27 |
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| AgeVivo | Some of you who go to Longecity and other places may know that I do big projects to the end (I'm currently in the distributed rodent lifespan test at home, starting with c60) and here I am really interested. So I'm looking for people here to work with cells at home | 16:30 |
| AgeVivo | : | 16:30 |
| AgeVivo | *** Anyone here working with cells at home?? *** to discuss the project with you | 16:30 |
| AgeVivo | *** Anyone interested in TALEs? In genetic modifications? *** | 16:31 |
| AgeVivo | *** Actually... is there anyone here??*** (perhaps I'm alone and not using the chat correctly...) | 16:31 |
| yashgaroth | yeah christmas day isn't exactly a busy one | 16:32 |
| yashgaroth | so uh by TALE do you mean TALENs or what | 16:32 |
| yashgaroth | oh no I guess TALEs are a thing too | 16:33 |
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| yashgaroth | but yes I sort of do genetic modification stuff, you could say | 16:36 |
| yashgaroth | did you have a particular gene in mind | 16:36 |
| yashgaroth | (please don't say telomerase) | 16:37 |
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| AgeVivo | yes TALEN | 16:53 |
| yashgaroth | mmkay | 16:54 |
| yashgaroth | what types of cells? | 16:54 |
| AgeVivo | My goal would be establish a system where I can modify some gene I want (foxo3a comes to my mind right now; but it could be anything else) -- even if it takes 6 months then to try to change a gene | 16:56 |
| AgeVivo | cells: ideally a type of stem cell because we could move it to next stages (mice), but if too complex in a first step, then a type of cell that we already are able to work with at home | 16:58 |
| yashgaroth | so then...are you simply transfecting cells to make them express foxo3a? I don't know what data you hope to get from that | 16:58 |
| AgeVivo | yes | 16:59 |
| yashgaroth | growing stem cells at home will be difficult, primary cells even more so | 16:59 |
| AgeVivo | yes. I have mice at home and I have had rats. I was thinking of getting bone marrow but that might be too complex / too specific for a toolkit that others may use at home | 17:00 |
| AgeVivo | so you you suggest a cell line? | 17:01 |
| yashgaroth | well sure there's 293 cells, they're the most standard | 17:01 |
| AgeVivo | What types of cells to people at home use? | 17:01 |
| AgeVivo | 293 cells? | 17:01 |
| yashgaroth | none, because no one does mammalian tissue culture work at home | 17:01 |
| yashgaroth | but 293 would be easiest | 17:01 |
| yashgaroth | and then what, you would subject them to a lot of oxidative stress and see if the transgenic ones apoptose more often? surely someone in a regular lab has done this already | 17:02 |
| AgeVivo | yes but if set smthg at home it would be mlany advantages | 17:03 |
| AgeVivo | for example some persons who are not in wet labs may work on it | 17:03 |
| AgeVivo | (and later work in wet labs: it would be a transition) | 17:03 |
| AgeVivo | others could start their start-up that way | 17:03 |
| AgeVivo | etc. | 17:03 |
| yashgaroth | sure, if they have a laminar flow cabinet | 17:04 |
| AgeVivo | By the way, thank you very much for being here and helping me shape the beginning (!) | 17:04 |
| yashgaroth | no worries, thank you for not being insane (so far) | 17:04 |
| AgeVivo | Concerning the best cells to use, I'm not sure what you meant exactly: | 17:04 |
| AgeVivo | I think that the best for the community would be to work on a type of cell that some people work with at home already -- what would it be?: 293? Are you using some cells at home?: 293? | 17:05 |
| yashgaroth | I don't do mammalian cell work at home, just in the lab | 17:06 |
| yashgaroth | but 293 cells are by far the easiest to work with if you don't have a full research lab | 17:06 |
| AgeVivo | ok... but, at home, do you do cell work? | 17:06 |
| yashgaroth | in a month or so the local diybio lab will be opening, so I'll be doing some there | 17:07 |
| yashgaroth | not that I plan to do much work with cells outside of my body | 17:07 |
| AgeVivo | nice | 17:07 |
| AgeVivo | I'm close to la paillasse (in France) | 17:08 |
| AgeVivo | I'm close to la paillasse (biohack in France) | 17:08 |
| yashgaroth | oh yes I saw their presentation at the conference | 17:08 |
| AgeVivo | (so you were at the conference 2-3 weeks ago; nice) | 17:08 |
| AgeVivo | Are there other people like you here doing cell work? | 17:09 |
| yashgaroth | the one 6 months ago, in san francisco; was there a more recent one? | 17:09 |
| yashgaroth | here? not really, there's only a few biologists, but the biologists that are here have done cell work yes | 17:09 |
| AgeVivo | yes there was the European DYIbio conference in Paris, 2 or 3 weeks ago | 17:09 |
| yashgaroth | ah, excellent | 17:10 |
| yashgaroth | truthfully, all you need is a laminar flow hood, an 37 degree CO2 incubator, a centrifuge, culture media, a pipette, and a microscope | 17:11 |
| AgeVivo | Myself I have done much work in physiology and lifespan (c elegans, drosophilas, mice and rats, worked on respiration and ageing mostly) but little cell work | 17:11 |
| AgeVivo | Ok. How much do you I need to invest to get that set up, if I use the basic equipment needed for that? 5 000$? more? less? | 17:12 |
| yashgaroth | that depends somewhat on how many cells you want to grow, and I don't know how european prices are | 17:12 |
| AgeVivo | Ideally other people wanting to do wet lab at home would all use the same equipmetn | 17:12 |
| AgeVivo | (use/buy) | 17:13 |
| yashgaroth | usually people will buy whatever's cheapest and available, assuming it functions | 17:13 |
| yashgaroth | a working piece of equipment is interchangeable with any other of its type, theoretically | 17:13 |
| yashgaroth | the laminar flow hood will be your largest expense, though | 17:14 |
| AgeVivo | yes theoretically and yes practically probably too because it is very basic equiment, true | 17:14 |
| AgeVivo | for the laminar flow hood, do I need to connect it to a "tube that goes out on the house"? or are there laminar flow hoods with filters to regularly replace? | 17:15 |
| yashgaroth | nope they're self-contained, it's not like a fume hood; but yes you will need to replace the HEPA filters occasionally | 17:16 |
| AgeVivo | great | 17:16 |
| yashgaroth | keep it in a fairly clean (i.e. non-dusty) room and it's good to go for at least a year per filter | 17:16 |
| AgeVivo | If I want to buy it at sigma-aldrich for example I guess they will ask me for a lab agreement number I guess... (?) | 17:17 |
| yashgaroth | oh no don't buy it new, get one off of ebay or craigslist or something | 17:17 |
| AgeVivo | ebay I know. craigslist I had never hear about. I will ask. | 17:18 |
| AgeVivo | ebay I know. craigslist I had never hear about. I will see | 17:18 |
| yashgaroth | again I don't know how it is in france/europe, especially with all their weird laws about genetic modification | 17:18 |
| AgeVivo | In France it is forbidden (ethics law) to do genetic modification | 17:19 |
| yashgaroth | heh yeah | 17:19 |
| AgeVivo | unless you have a special agreement | 17:19 |
| yashgaroth | but I'm quite sure most places in the US will ship to europe, though for a 1 meter hood the shipping will be quite expensive | 17:19 |
| AgeVivo | since it is forbidden I am doing it at home rather than doing it at La Paillase (official biohack lab) | 17:20 |
| yashgaroth | of course | 17:20 |
| yashgaroth | but I'd say, roughly, $5000 for the whole thing is not unreasonable | 17:20 |
| AgeVivo | o | 17:20 |
| AgeVivo | ok | 17:20 |
| yashgaroth | 2500 for the hood, 500 for a centrifuge, 200 microscope, 100 pipette, and the rest on the incubator | 17:21 |
| AgeVivo | one can buy a laminar flow hood for normal cell culture, right? or even simple chemistry, right? So this should be fully authorized | 17:21 |
| yashgaroth | they will not assume you are doing genetic modification, but it doesn't really have a use outside of cell work | 17:21 |
| yashgaroth | chemistry would be a fume hood | 17:22 |
| AgeVivo | ok ok. | 17:22 |
| AgeVivo | Would you advise me to buy all that on ebay/craiglist? | 17:22 |
| yashgaroth | try to price it on normal retail websites first, if it's too expensive go to ebay | 17:22 |
| AgeVivo | normal retail websites first: what names would you have in mind right now? | 17:23 |
| yashgaroth | just google the item and browse for a while, I suppose | 17:23 |
| yashgaroth | microscopes and pipettes and centrifuges, it doesn't really matter where you buy | 17:24 |
| yashgaroth | your biggest problem will be buying culture media | 17:24 |
| AgeVivo | When I was working in wet labs I used to buy most things at sigma-aldrich. does it make sense here for all this? | 17:24 |
| yashgaroth | sigma will not sell to private users | 17:25 |
| AgeVivo | yes, that's what I had in mind... | 17:25 |
| yashgaroth | maybe they will sell to la paillasse...maybe | 17:25 |
| AgeVivo | could you give me an exemple of retailer that you think would sell to private users? | 17:25 |
| @kanzure | ebay | 17:26 |
| yashgaroth | carolina.com will sell some things, openbiotech.com has 293 cells (but not media for some reason) | 17:26 |
| AgeVivo | ok | 17:26 |
| yashgaroth | for equipment you don't need to buy from biotech retailers | 17:26 |
| yashgaroth | in fact I would recommend against it, since they will charge way too much for equipment | 17:27 |
| yashgaroth | again that's why I say media will be your biggest problem to buy, since no one sells that to private users | 17:28 |
| yashgaroth | I suppose you could experiment with extracting your own serum, but that's a whole project by itself | 17:29 |
| AgeVivo | To recap and because I am not sure of what you mean exactly in the last sentences, for example I should buy a laminar flow hood from ebay, 293 cells from openbiotech.com, bovine featal media from carolina.com, | 17:29 |
| @kanzure | parahsailin has a bovine serum project in the works | 17:29 |
| yashgaroth | I don't think anyone sells media, but I may be wrong | 17:29 |
| @kanzure | i think his plan is to do some cell line that generates the serum instead of harvesting from livestock | 17:30 |
| AgeVivo | In my lab we used to buy media at sigma | 17:30 |
| yashgaroth | yes but sigma will not sell to you, and maybe not to la paillasse | 17:30 |
| @kanzure | probably, you mean.. you should still try sigma anyway. | 17:31 |
| yashgaroth | yeah | 17:31 |
| @kanzure | AgeVivo: since you plan to incorporate anyway, you should just incorporate and get the agreement in writing with sigma | 17:31 |
| AgeVivo | To recap and because I am not sure of what you mean exactly in the last sentences, for example I should buy a laminar flow hood from ebay, 293 cells from openbiotech.com, media (bovine featal?) from carolina.com, centrifuge/microscope/pipette from ?? (ebay?) ? | 17:31 |
| yashgaroth | all equipment from ebay | 17:31 |
| yashgaroth | 293 cells from openbiotech, and media from ??? | 17:31 |
| AgeVivo | kanzure you were saying that instead of buying media there is an alternative? | 17:32 |
| yashgaroth | it would be an interesting project to adapt a 293 line to adult human serum, that's for sure | 17:32 |
| @kanzure | no it is just parahsailin's project. theoretically you can generate bovine media without the livestock. but it doesn't exist at the moment. | 17:33 |
| @kanzure | yashgaroth: what i need to do is go meet myself a rancher here in texas. damn. | 17:33 |
| AgeVivo | of course my goal is to minimize the number of additional projects along the way in order to finish the project in 2 years rather than 20 years ;-) | 17:33 |
| yashgaroth | go find yourself an abattoir owner | 17:34 |
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| yashgaroth | hey now, being able to grow cells off of your own blood would be great for diybio | 17:35 |
| AgeVivo | not sure if you are talking to me | 17:35 |
| @kanzure | hey maybe our friends at the NRA know a good abattoir | 17:35 |
| yashgaroth | both of you, I suppose | 17:35 |
| AgeVivo | "kanzure> i think his plan is to do some cell line that generates the serum instead of harvesting from livestock" what did you mean? | 17:35 |
| @kanzure | what do you mean what do i mean | 17:35 |
| @kanzure | bleh | 17:35 |
| yashgaroth | many cell lines, especially primary and/or stem cells, require factors found in fetal bovine serum | 17:35 |
| AgeVivo | appearently you thought I wanted to do smthg that actually does not require to buy media (nor adapt human media) | 17:36 |
| @kanzure | no | 17:36 |
| AgeVivo | did I understand well? if so, what is this smthg? | 17:36 |
| AgeVivo | oh ok | 17:36 |
| yashgaroth | let's focus on defined synthetic 293 media for now, since that's what you'll need | 17:37 |
| AgeVivo | oh, abatoir for the blood for the media. ok | 17:37 |
| yashgaroth | yes | 17:37 |
| AgeVivo | I'm fully ok on using "defined synthetic 293 media for now, since that's what you'll need" : it seems the most direct | 17:38 |
| @kanzure | except you don't have it. | 17:38 |
| yashgaroth | heh | 17:38 |
| yashgaroth | and it will be the most difficult thing for you to get | 17:38 |
| AgeVivo | actually, in the end what I would like it to modify mouse or rat mesenchymal stem cells | 17:38 |
| yashgaroth | ah, then you will probably need to get into fetal bovine serum | 17:39 |
| yashgaroth | oooor fetal mouse serum | 17:39 |
| @kanzure | congratulations, you get to become a baby killer | 17:39 |
| * kanzure gives out party hats | 17:39 | |
| yashgaroth | man I wonder how much serum you can even get from a fetal mouse...like, 1 mL? | 17:39 |
| AgeVivo | with rats, couldn't I have rats from whom I regularly take blood? | 17:40 |
| @kanzure | yashgaroth: obviously this calls for a fetus farm | 17:40 |
| AgeVivo | does it needs to be fetus? | 17:40 |
| yashgaroth | yes, but the point of fetal serum is that it has many growth factors that are less present in adult serum, that promote growth | 17:40 |
| AgeVivo | ok | 17:40 |
| yashgaroth | I don't do any stem cell work myself, since stem cells are a huge hassle to work with, so I can't give you many specifics there | 17:41 |
| @kanzure | parahsailin figures that you can express those proteins and factors through an engineered cell line, but again this doesn't exist yet. but ultimately it would be far less work than killing billions of liters of fetuses. | 17:41 |
| AgeVivo | so I'll ask sigma for serum. I'll tell them the truth: I previously worked at the pasteur institute and at inserm, not anymore but I'd like to develop a system at home such that I could do a start up | 17:41 |
| AgeVivo | we'll see their answer | 17:42 |
| @kanzure | you should just ask sigma what sort of incorporation paperwork they need to see | 17:42 |
| yashgaroth | they will likely not want the risk | 17:42 |
| AgeVivo | "incorporation paperwork" = ? | 17:42 |
| AgeVivo | administrative stuff? | 17:42 |
| @kanzure | proof of business | 17:42 |
| yashgaroth | kanzure, these poor socialist europeans can't just start businesses | 17:42 |
| AgeVivo | ok | 17:42 |
| @kanzure | yashgaroth: elaborate? | 17:43 |
| AgeVivo | yahsgarott: yes, absolutely. they kill innovation everyday | 17:43 |
| yashgaroth | I imagine it's quite a lot more difficult than here; have to bribe the local commune, wait 10 years, etc | 17:43 |
| AgeVivo | the strange thing is that they wonder why the USA is so innovative and not Europe, and why it's the crisis and what they can do about it. | 17:44 |
| @kanzure | i've been trhough the process a few times.. basically you wipe your ass with some toilet paper and you're incorporated. | 17:44 |
| @kanzure | pretty simple | 17:44 |
| yashgaroth | ah, but did you try it in le france? | 17:45 |
| @kanzure | nope | 17:45 |
| yashgaroth | especially since they're so paranoid about genetics work | 17:45 |
| AgeVivo | France is worse than most European countries. It has the highest number of ethical comitee per lab | 17:45 |
| AgeVivo | but I'll try | 17:46 |
| yashgaroth | haha ethical committees, fucking europe | 17:46 |
| yashgaroth | I feel your pain | 17:46 |
| yashgaroth | at worst, when we get the lab working here, I can try buying some media powder and sending it to you | 17:47 |
| AgeVivo | the worst I feel, is not that they stop innovation at its root. it is that terminally ill persons are not allowed to try new potential treatments unless they can fit in a specific existing call for trial (but they die before) | 17:47 |
| yashgaroth | well that's true in the states as well, but it is stricter in europe | 17:48 |
| AgeVivo | this is because of ethics. I have a friend who is in several ethical comitees linked with cancer, and they refuse all new therapeutics to terminally ill patients. don't ask me why | 17:48 |
| AgeVivo | any I digress. Thank you very much. | 17:48 |
| AgeVivo | I'll have a look and come back. | 17:49 |
| AgeVivo | Are you here often? | 17:49 |
| AgeVivo | my email is longevity@agevivo.com | 17:49 |
| yashgaroth | all the time, and I have a holiday this whole week so I'll just be around | 17:49 |
| AgeVivo | wow. great | 17:50 |
| yashgaroth | hey I'm just glad to have someone here interested in biology that isn't talking constantly and ignorantly about telomerase | 17:50 |
| yashgaroth | generally I'll be around here +/- 6 hours from now, most days | 17:51 |
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| AgeVivo | great. I'll be happy to discuss with you, know what you are doing etc. | 17:51 |
| yashgaroth | excellent | 17:51 |
| AgeVivo | Since you are used to this place: I was wondering if there could be money to help me finance a toolkit for transfection at home, that then other persons could do as well. But I don't know if that's feasible/I'm new here/it's certainly very preliminary. | 17:52 |
| AgeVivo | So perhaps to see with the organisers, at some time, I don't know. | 17:52 |
| yashgaroth | surely longecity has some rich old people? | 17:52 |
| jrayhawk | kanzure: if you think that's bad, the X1 Carbon doesn't even *have* a capslock light | 17:52 |
| jrayhawk | i wonder if that's true for the other 30 generation laptops | 17:53 |
| AgeVivo | yes, true too. I've had 500$ to send C60 in olive oild to pet owners throughout the world. | 17:53 |
| AgeVivo | By the way, if anyone is willing here to have rodent pets at home throughout their lives and contribute to life extension, write to longevity@agevivo.com | 17:54 |
| AgeVivo | Ok, have to go now. | 17:54 |
| AgeVivo | All the very best. Happy to have found that place! Bye! | 17:55 |
| yashgaroth | au revoir and all that | 17:55 |
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| AgeVivo | Coming back... (I should sleep but it's too interesting) rather than work on mice I could perhaps work with fat and blood from me | 18:11 |
| yashgaroth | sure | 18:11 |
| AgeVivo | The trouble is that I really don't want to take risks for my health of course | 18:12 |
| AgeVivo | I'd have to extract fat | 18:12 |
| yashgaroth | well blood is easy to extract, fat less so...where's that video of the guy doing diy liposuction | 18:12 |
| AgeVivo | and blood | 18:12 |
| AgeVivo | "guy doing diy liposuction": really? | 18:12 |
| yashgaroth | mhm | 18:13 |
| yashgaroth | gets a vacuum pump and a needle and just goes at it | 18:13 |
| AgeVivo | I'd like to see it | 18:13 |
| yashgaroth | oh and some painkillers I think/hope | 18:13 |
| yashgaroth | it's been a few years since I saw it, will take a look around | 18:14 |
| AgeVivo | Because that's actually the best to me: extract a little human abdominal fat | 18:15 |
| AgeVivo | From there I'd need to extract mesenchymal stem cells | 18:15 |
| yashgaroth | there's always subcutaneous fat, that's everywhere and relatively easy to access | 18:15 |
| AgeVivo | I'd guess htat's another story but it's essentially a question of cost and it's directly my allee so... why not | 18:16 |
| yashgaroth | yeah the cost will be a lot higher than 293 cells | 18:17 |
| AgeVivo | (in my last sentence I was talking about getting mesenchymal stem cells from fat) | 18:17 |
| AgeVivo | You know, if I can do that, it would be marvellous to me | 18:17 |
| yashgaroth | oh, absolutely | 18:17 |
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| AgeVivo | By coincidence would you know 1) how to extract abdominal fat at home (I've actually done much surgery in rats, including very complex cardiopulmonary surgery, but when it comes to humans and especially me I feel completely newcomer) | 18:19 |
| AgeVivo | 2) what additional equipemetn to buy to filter cells from the fat? | 18:20 |
| AgeVivo | 3) How to take blood? (when that's certainly a stupid question; I'l ask a retired surgeon friend who will teach me) | 18:21 |
| AgeVivo | ? | 18:21 |
| yashgaroth | well 1) would be a syringe and some good aim, and 2) I'm not sure; fat is all cells but since I assume you mean stem cells, either flow cytometry or maybe fluorescence microscopy, 3) is also a syringe | 18:21 |
| AgeVivo | nice. so I have to see the price for flow cytometry, try both the mice axes and "me" axis and come back here when I'm more aware | 18:23 |
| yashgaroth | haha flow cytometry is a quarter million dollars | 18:24 |
| yashgaroth | apparently you can do some affinity pulldown, but I've never done that with cells, just proteins & dna | 18:24 |
| AgeVivo | Thank you for the interesting discussion. If you think I can help in exchange in some way don't hesitate to ask | 18:24 |
| jrayhawk | man, 'rat surgeon' sounds awesomely mad sciency | 18:24 |
| yashgaroth | like I say, I'm just happy to talk biology | 18:24 |
| @kanzure | you could do a microfluidic flow cytometer, but it's an entire separate project. but it wouldn't cost $250k in parts. | 18:24 |
| AgeVivo | haha oh hahaha. Have to go. Bye! | 18:25 |
| AgeVivo | "'rat surgeon' sounds awesomely mad sciency" Yes in the past I was doing what I used to call "bionic rats". I'll described another time (not as great as it sounds) | 18:26 |
| jrayhawk | now i feel inadequate | 18:29 |
| @kanzure | it's okay jrayhawk, you can make up for it with rat fetus surgery | 18:29 |
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| brownies | ...did he seriously come in here asking for advice on DIY cosmetic surgery? | 18:31 |
| yashgaroth | nah, investigating transgenic overexpression of a tumor suppressor gene | 18:32 |
| yashgaroth | that video of the guy doing diy lipo was totally fucked up, like 15 minutes of him muddling around in his abdomen with a huge needle and then almost passing out after | 18:32 |
| yashgaroth | I think it got taken down, or at least that's a safe assumption | 18:33 |
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| jrayhawk | was it one of the BME/Extreme guys | 18:33 |
| yashgaroth | don't think so, at least I didn't see any body mod stuff on him...then again the video was quite low quality back then | 18:33 |
| @kanzure | yeah, you might as well find the link now | 18:34 |
| yashgaroth | it was literally like 6-8 years ago I think | 18:34 |
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| yashgaroth | kind of thing that sticks with you, though | 18:34 |
| @kanzure | i bet SA remembers | 18:34 |
| yashgaroth | probably where it got linked from, yeah | 18:35 |
| jrayhawk | it's sad that stileproject died | 18:35 |
| yashgaroth | holy shit I've been regged on SA for 9 years | 18:35 |
| jrayhawk | newb | 18:35 |
| @kanzure | registered for 0 years, 0 months, 0 days. i'm going for a record. | 18:35 |
| yashgaroth | hey that was the soonest I could get a credit card | 18:35 |
| jrayhawk | They weren't charging for accounts for the first few years | 18:35 |
| yashgaroth | I think I missed it and then finally signed up when the bittorrent barnyard was alive | 18:36 |
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| yashgaroth | ah well, anyway this french guy seems fairly legit | 18:38 |
| @kanzure | longecity has a handful of community projects that try their hardest to do something meaningful | 18:38 |
| @kanzure | i think c60/pets is one of them | 18:39 |
| @kanzure | http://www.longecity.org/forum/forum/295-projects-teams/ | 18:40 |
| yashgaroth | man good luck shooting olive oil into your dog's peritoneal | 18:40 |
| @kanzure | they also have some weird project contributions/points system | 18:41 |
| joshcryer | -NickServ- Registered : Oct 13 07:26:19 2004 (8 years, 10 weeks, 5 days, 19:22:01 ago) | 18:48 |
| joshcryer | I got kanzure beat by two weeks! Woot. | 18:49 |
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| joshcryer | I think longecity has way too much shit going on and it's all spread out. | 18:54 |
| joshcryer | At least LW tries to stay focused. | 18:55 |
| @kanzure | on ponies? | 18:57 |
| yashgaroth | on ayn rand's figurative dick | 18:57 |
| @kanzure | plos.org hacked (probably xss or wordpress) | 19:03 |
| @kanzure | http://www.plos.org/wp-content/themes/plos/README | 19:03 |
| @kanzure | http://www.plos.org/media/downloads/ | 19:04 |
| @kanzure | dayum. http://www.plos.org/wp-includes/ | 19:05 |
| yashgaroth | I'll take your word on that | 19:05 |
| @kanzure | http://www.plos.org/license.txt | 19:06 |
| yashgaroth | idgi are these files not supposed to be public or something | 19:07 |
| @kanzure | yes | 19:09 |
| yashgaroth | ah | 19:10 |
| @kanzure | i'm curious where the xss exploit is though | 19:10 |
| @kanzure | google is blocking the site in chrome | 19:10 |
| @kanzure | http://safebrowsing.clients.google.com/safebrowsing/diagnostic?site=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.plosone.org%2F&client=googlechrome&hl=en-US | 19:10 |
| yashgaroth | aw dang it I went and visited the main page | 19:11 |
| yashgaroth | it's probably fine, right? I mean it's not liBUY CHEAP V1@GR@ ONLINE | 19:11 |
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| joshcryer | You've been infected yashgaroth. | 19:20 |
| yashgaroth | hello friend i have a very intriguing business opportunity for you | 19:20 |
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| wrldpc | ayn rand got a big ol' ass/ayn rand got a big ol' ass/ayn rand got a big ol' rand got a big ol' rand got a big ol' ass | 20:14 |
| wrldpc | I should record a lascivious ayn rand track for the lulz. | 20:14 |
| joshcryer | Just when I think LW is OK but a bunch of elitist smart underachievers ya'll drop the Ayn Rand thing on me. I read "In Defense of Ayn Rand" and almost threw up a little. At least I could agree with Eliezer on "The Guardians of Ayn Rand." Except I disagree that Newton's religious views were the most terrible (logical conclusion from "allowing women to vote"), it was his attacks on | 20:24 |
| joshcryer | counterfiters that was most appalling. | 20:24 |
| joshcryer | Note: I do think women should be able to vote, but Newton's religious views didn't change the landscape, his actual actions as far as catching counterfieters did. | 20:25 |
| joshcryer | As far as "In Defense of Ayn Rand"'s "rational ostracization," I would only conclude that those who behave this way will be rendered low information states since their processes are incompatible with a larger data web, even in a T3 civilization (barring FTL). | 20:29 |
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| @kanzure | does everyone run everything through valgrind these days? | 23:32 |
| abetusk | under linux, written in c, that's what I do | 23:33 |
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| --- Log closed Wed Dec 26 00:00:11 2012 | ||
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