| --- Log opened Wed Jan 23 00:00:38 2013 | ||
| bkero | for python mq's try beanstalk | 00:03 |
|---|---|---|
| brownies | i like the look of beanstalk | 00:05 |
| brownies | but i couldn't find anyone who's actually using it | 00:06 |
| kanzure | hmm https://marketplace.firefox.com/ | 00:24 |
| kanzure | eleitl: yes i saw that email already | 00:28 |
| kanzure | eleitl: do you have any specific comment about it though? | 00:32 |
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| eleitl | morning kanzure | 01:09 |
| eleitl | what's with all the fuss? I have missed all of it. | 01:09 |
| eleitl | is there a genuine problem, or is there some overreaction on either party's part? | 01:10 |
| phm_ | I haven't seen any problem. | 01:11 |
| eleitl | you understand why I'm trying to bring in Zero State members, right? | 01:11 |
| eleitl | it's a motivational measure | 01:12 |
| phm_ | Influx of new people can feel threatening. | 01:13 |
| phm_ | Trust takes time. | 01:14 |
| phm_ | My guess is that things will work out fine. I may have been part of the problem, I don't know. But I will likely disappear soon. | 01:15 |
| phm_ | and I'm not a Zero State member. | 01:16 |
| eleitl | do I know you in RL, phm_? | 01:17 |
| phm_ | I doubt it. Why? Do I sound like someone you know? | 01:17 |
| eleitl | No idea. I just like to know who's doing what where. Maintaining a mental map tends to be very useful on the long run. | 01:18 |
| phm_ | I think I'm an anomaly. | 01:19 |
| eleitl | The more interesting, then. | 01:19 |
| phm_ | Not sure. | 01:19 |
| phm_ | I hope I'm not boring. | 01:20 |
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| eleitl | You definitely aren't, we've had a nice conversation yesterday. | 01:21 |
| phm_ | I enjoyed it. | 01:22 |
| phm_ | I'm not sure if kanz enjoyed my attempt at conversation with him. I think perhaps not. I hope he is happy. | 01:23 |
| phm_ | I should have said: I hope he is not unhappy. | 01:24 |
| eleitl | I should really try to read the backlog. | 01:25 |
| phm_ | 'I hope he's happy' could be misinterpreted. | 01:25 |
| eleitl | let's see whether we can get ZS members to pay for the Iceland host | 01:26 |
| eleitl | it should be part of the pedagogical scheme to make end users use crypto routinely | 01:26 |
| phm_ | I don't like crypto. I use telnet in preference to shh :) | 01:26 |
| phm_ | ssh | 01:26 |
| eleitl | well, there won't be any telnet access to that host | 01:27 |
| phm_ | awww | 01:27 |
| eleitl | that would defy the whole point, won't it | 01:27 |
| phm_ | What point? | 01:27 |
| eleitl | we want to do a crypto party in OpenQwaq sometime in the coming two months | 01:28 |
| phm_ | cool | 01:28 |
| eleitl | there should be a motivation for ZS users to learn and follow basic security and safety guidelines | 01:28 |
| phm_ | I'd like to see OpenQwaq used properly | 01:28 |
| eleitl | right, pushign for OQ acceptance and use is another positive side effect | 01:29 |
| phm_ | have you ever met in second life, or was that just a kanz slur on OQ? | 01:29 |
| eleitl | what are you referring to? | 01:30 |
| eleitl | I have used SL in the past, as well as looked into OpenSim | 01:31 |
| eleitl | I will only use technology which can't be taken away from you, and is useful | 01:31 |
| eleitl | I don't like the design of OpenSim | 01:31 |
| phm_ | He said that ZS people have second life parties. I assumed he was making fun of OQ. | 01:31 |
| eleitl | I'm not aware of any SL users of ZS. | 01:31 |
| eleitl | As to parties, huh, sure, we're such a fun-loving bunch. | 01:32 |
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| phm_ | I think he intended it to be an insult. | 01:32 |
| eleitl | If Bryan doesn't see the utility of decent audio and putting live video on avatar's faces... | 01:33 |
| phm_ | Going with his 'hplusroadmappers do/make shit, ZSers just write blog posts and have parties' theme. | 01:33 |
| eleitl | I don't know what he is meaning with that, and will wait until he's back, and explains | 01:34 |
| eleitl | No sense in guessing what people mean | 01:34 |
| phm_ | Maybe he was genuinely mistaken and confused OQ with SL. I don't know. | 01:34 |
| strangewarp | Sounds like good-natured ribbing, honestly | 01:35 |
| strangewarp | but yeah, kanzure prefers people who Actually Make Stuff, from what I can tell | 01:36 |
| eleitl | see, no need to leap to conclusions | 01:36 |
| phm_ | I agree with him about that. | 01:36 |
| eleitl | strangely enough, I also prefer people who actually do things | 01:36 |
| phm_ | He's right to criticise the bloggers. | 01:36 |
| eleitl | you will find that Bryce Lynch is pretty capable, and I do some physical layer things as well, occasionally | 01:37 |
| eleitl | I don't think it's futile to motivate people to actually do things by providing an example | 01:37 |
| phm_ | Sure, but a lot of it is wild speculation, I guess. | 01:38 |
| eleitl | I will abstain from criticizing certain efforts in public | 01:38 |
| phm_ | And I understand why he might criticise ZS for doing too much philosophy. | 01:38 |
| * eleitl doesn't do philosophy, at all | 01:39 | |
| phm_ | Amon is very wordy. | 01:39 |
| eleitl | down to a fault, at times | 01:40 |
| phm_ | I was reading some ZS stuff and thinking 'is this really necessary/useful?' | 01:40 |
| eleitl | it's not my design. I think in person Amon is very motivational. | 01:41 |
| eleitl | I think I'll let him know about online verbiage thing. | 01:41 |
| phm_ | I will probably try to meet him face to face if he's based in London. | 01:42 |
| eleitl | do that, he's a nice guy | 01:42 |
| phm_ | He sounds nice online. | 01:42 |
| phm_ | I like his style. | 01:42 |
| eleitl | we planned another ZS meeting in May in Munich, but it will be pushed back, and probably happen in London. | 01:43 |
| eleitl | we'll definitely do a mixed reality event, with people attending in OQ and using a video projector | 01:43 |
| eleitl | that shit works surprisingly well | 01:43 |
| phm_ | I probably wouldn't come to Munich, but there is a good chance I'd come to London. | 01:44 |
| eleitl | I personally consider travel a major nuisance, and try to eliminate it as often as humanly feasible | 01:44 |
| phm_ | hence the commune! | 01:44 |
| eleitl | I see the point if you have a lab, in fact I'd prefer to have a lab right next door to the living room | 01:44 |
| eleitl | but, you have to make compromises | 01:45 |
| eleitl | look at this: http://www.m4.de/fileadmin/user_upload/m4_Seite/Gebaeude_Luftbilder_Karten/Campus_Martinsried_gesamt.JPG | 01:45 |
| phm_ | Humans are social animals. Interacting on computers all day is very unhealthy for them. | 01:45 |
| eleitl | this is 30 min away from me on the bike | 01:45 |
| eleitl | just the point of frigging VR! | 01:46 |
| phm_ | not good enough. | 01:46 |
| phm_ | And why bother when we can just live together? | 01:46 |
| eleitl | if you see your face on the avatar and hear audio, and can manipulate stuff together, that triggers a lot of social machinery | 01:46 |
| eleitl | because most of us are spread all over the world, and we're busy | 01:46 |
| phm_ | true, but IRL is even better. | 01:46 |
| eleitl | if wishes were horses | 01:47 |
| strangewarp | Interacting on computers can only be framed as unhealthy for a social species if you're a digital dualist... | 01:47 |
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| phm_ | even if you can't all leave tomorrow, I think it will play a big part at some point. | 01:47 |
| eleitl | the channel needs to be wider | 01:48 |
| eleitl | I'm actually looking forward to see Oculus Rift with OpenQwaq | 01:48 |
| eleitl | immersion is important | 01:48 |
| eleitl | if you have upper body trackers, then things are much more natural | 01:49 |
| eleitl | and you can bring teleoperation into that | 01:49 |
| eleitl | then, you can do physical layer things, across the world, collaboratively | 01:49 |
| phm_ | Yeah, but it will never be as good as real life. At least not in the next 20 years. | 01:49 |
| phm_ | And I don't think setting up a commune is all that difficult. I spoke to spencer about it. He is very keen. | 01:50 |
| strangewarp | phm_: I wouldn't say computer interaction is better or worse than physical interaction. It has comparative strengths and weaknesses. | 01:52 |
| eleitl | where in UK would you do it? | 01:52 |
| phm_ | Dunno. I'd be happy to squat, but that only works if you can travel light. | 01:52 |
| phm_ | The main issue is money. | 01:53 |
| eleitl | if you do a commune you should own the land | 01:53 |
| eleitl | you will need infrastructure | 01:53 |
| phm_ | If you own the land, it's not squatting.. | 01:53 |
| eleitl | my point precisely | 01:53 |
| phm_ | I was thinking more of warehouse squats. | 01:54 |
| phm_ | moving on after each eviction. | 01:54 |
| eleitl | was never part of that culture, no idea about that | 01:54 |
| eleitl | it's hard enough to set up stuff in an orderly setting | 01:54 |
| phm_ | it's doable, but owning the building would be much much better. But.. money.. | 01:54 |
| phm_ | Not for me. I can travel light. All I need is a laptop | 01:55 |
| eleitl | I'll be blowing through 1 kEUR this month, and that is very, very frugal for purchases. | 01:55 |
| eleitl | the lab we're renting for 1 kEUR/month right now would cost somewhere 100 kEUR to set up | 01:55 |
| eleitl | if I owned my home, I'd be doing that actually | 01:56 |
| eleitl | as is, I will have to move elsewhere in about 20 years | 01:56 |
| eleitl | sooner, if my dayjob goes tits up | 01:56 |
| phm_ | I dreamed that a startup running from a squat could be part of the bootstrap process. I don't know how realistic it is. | 01:56 |
| * eleitl doesn't think it's realistic, but he's been wrong before | 01:57 | |
| phm_ | If we already have some good software that we could make profitable.. maybe | 01:57 |
| eleitl | I prefer using FLOSS things | 01:57 |
| phm_ | Me too. But selling code is a means to an ends | 01:58 |
| eleitl | doing proprietary development for money it not quite my cup of tea | 01:58 |
| eleitl | I think the nice my dayjob is in is coming to a close, actually | 01:59 |
| eleitl | niche | 01:59 |
| eleitl | they're doing cheminformatics for a number of industry clients, mostly CAS, though | 02:00 |
| phm_ | I'd be happy to hack into a bank if we could figure out how to do it. | 02:00 |
| eleitl | if you want to make money, you should found a bank | 02:00 |
| eleitl | or BTC exchange | 02:00 |
| phm_ | Yeah. let's see how the ZS RES thing goes | 02:01 |
| phm_ | founding a bank sounds a lot more trouble than hacking one. | 02:01 |
| phm_ | I'm sure there is some very low hanging fruit if you don't mind breaking the law. | 02:02 |
| phm_ | As long as it's ethical, I don't care how we make the money. | 02:02 |
| eleitl | there should be a damn good reason if you're going something illegal | 02:02 |
| eleitl | if you're just trying to make money, hacking into a bank is probably the worst possible thing you could do | 02:02 |
| eleitl | just whipping up some malware is so much easier | 02:03 |
| phm_ | maybe | 02:04 |
| phm_ | cheating at online poker, whatever | 02:04 |
| eleitl | what are your skills, phm_? you a developer? | 02:04 |
| phm_ | low hanging fruit | 02:04 |
| phm_ | Do you think Factor e will ever become self-sufficient / profitable? | 02:05 |
| phm_ | software is the only useful thing I do | 02:05 |
| phm_ | I'd like to be a mathematician but I'm not very good at it. | 02:06 |
| eleitl | that's your startup thing, right? | 02:06 |
| phm_ | software or hacking is the obvious choice for me, yeah. | 02:06 |
| eleitl | I don't really know how to make money with software development | 02:08 |
| phm_ | there is a lot of scope in social engineering techniques. 6 months with a good team and I'm confident we could find a way to profit. | 02:08 |
| eleitl | I must admit I'd be rather at working in the BTC economy | 02:09 |
| eleitl | exchanges, arbitrage, etc. | 02:09 |
| phm_ | I'm not optimistic about it | 02:09 |
| eleitl | it is worthile to push BTC all by itself | 02:09 |
| phm_ | maybe | 02:09 |
| eleitl | if you happen to make money by it, the more power to you | 02:09 |
| phm_ | sounds like easy money. | 02:10 |
| eleitl | I am by no means certain that the South Sea Bubble will be a success | 02:10 |
| eleitl | however, if it is, the sky's the limit | 02:10 |
| phm_ | "low risk, high yield" heh. What could possibly go wrong? | 02:10 |
| eleitl | right | 02:10 |
| eleitl | I'll be throwing in 2 k of my own money, which I'd rather use for something else | 02:11 |
| phm_ | I'd even be happy to sell illegal drugs if it's ethical. | 02:11 |
| phm_ | harder to do that without getting caught, though | 02:11 |
| phm_ | much harder | 02:11 |
| eleitl | it is very easy to sell drugs, see Silk Road | 02:11 |
| phm_ | And where do they come from? | 02:12 |
| eleitl | just make some | 02:12 |
| eleitl | I'm not encouraging you to go down that route, by all means | 02:12 |
| phm_ | silk road is still working? I thought they'd shut it down | 02:12 |
| eleitl | my former housemate in SoCal is probably still doing time in the California prison system | 02:12 |
| phm_ | exactly. Too easy to get caught. | 02:13 |
| eleitl | it is easy, if you're stupid | 02:13 |
| phm_ | make what? Where do the ingredients come from? | 02:13 |
| phm_ | That's what I say about hacking/cracking | 02:13 |
| eleitl | you can order research chemicals from China, via custom synthesis | 02:13 |
| eleitl | or you could just make your own | 02:14 |
| phm_ | bank hack seems like the perfect crime to me. And I'm not a bio chemist person so I don't know how to make drugs | 02:14 |
| phm_ | How do you order them and not get traced? | 02:14 |
| eleitl | some research chemicals are legal | 02:14 |
| phm_ | there are too many ways to get caught. | 02:14 |
| eleitl | do you think that hacking a bank is safe? | 02:15 |
| phm_ | yes | 02:15 |
| eleitl | describe to me how you would cover your point of origin | 02:15 |
| phm_ | if you do it properly, it's impossible to be caught. The hard part is laundering the money | 02:15 |
| phm_ | climb a telephone mast. | 02:15 |
| phm_ | splice into a cable. | 02:16 |
| phm_ | whatever | 02:16 |
| eleitl | how would you compromise the internal systems, without being an insider? | 02:16 |
| phm_ | exploit bugs | 02:16 |
| phm_ | and social engineering | 02:16 |
| eleitl | via what vector? | 02:17 |
| phm_ | any possible software vulnerability | 02:17 |
| eleitl | you're trying to penetrate something from the outside which you have no idea about | 02:17 |
| eleitl | you don't strike me like you have the right set of skills, either | 02:17 |
| phm_ | probably not. hacking/cracking is very boring to me. | 02:18 |
| phm_ | but I know some people that do. | 02:18 |
| eleitl | just run a botnet, it's much easier, and safer | 02:18 |
| phm_ | also an option | 02:18 |
| phm_ | my point is, get some hackers together and I feel confident we can pick the lowest hanging fruit. | 02:19 |
| eleitl | if you ever do it, you shouldn't probably discuss it on a public channel like this | 02:20 |
| phm_ | Think of how many ways there are to illegal exploit computers and profit. | 02:20 |
| * eleitl prefers to be in the solution set rather than precipitate | 02:20 | |
| phm_ | I'm insane. I talk about a lot of things. I don't even do anything. | 02:21 |
| eleitl | I tend to do things by the book. | 02:21 |
| phm_ | ever | 02:21 |
| phm_ | Nobody will take a mad guy seriously. | 02:21 |
| eleitl | I pay my takes, I have my dayjob, I have a company on the side, I'm a family person. | 02:22 |
| eleitl | taxes | 02:22 |
| phm_ | but is that going to make you enough money to change the world? | 02:22 |
| eleitl | I will be happy if we can get our lab indefinitely funded | 02:23 |
| eleitl | then I'll move on to other things, like make money | 02:23 |
| phm_ | makes sense. | 02:23 |
| eleitl | if I can cover some 2.5 kEUR/month, I no longer need my dayjob. | 02:23 |
| eleitl | e.g. doing the snail project will take 20 kEUR in used hardware, and probably a man-year, minimum | 02:24 |
| phm_ | playing with snails is not an option for me. | 02:25 |
| eleitl | why? | 02:26 |
| phm_ | cos I'm not a biologist | 02:26 |
| eleitl | ok | 02:28 |
| phm_ | "As of this past month, China now has a $350m institute with 140 PhDs plugging away on molten salt reactors." | 02:29 |
| phm_ | I wonder if that's true | 02:29 |
| eleitl | good luck to them, they're going to need it | 02:29 |
| phm_ | heh | 02:30 |
| eleitl | China is pretty desperate, they have to try anything | 02:30 |
| phm_ | So you think it's true? | 02:30 |
| eleitl | they use 50+% of world's coal, and they know that 2030 is peak coal. | 02:30 |
| eleitl | it might be well true, it doesn't mean that the project will be a success | 02:30 |
| phm_ | I'm thinking they must know something we don't, if it is true. Either that or they're really desperate. | 02:31 |
| eleitl | obviously MSR breeders are useful for a number of applications, e.g. space | 02:31 |
| eleitl | the problem is that they're too late | 02:32 |
| phm_ | why? | 02:32 |
| eleitl | they should have started that project in 1980s, and they did not have the money or skills back then | 02:32 |
| eleitl | assuming they have a working product in in 30 years, that's 2043. | 02:32 |
| phm_ | Nobody in the west thinks it's realistic? even in 30-100 years | 02:34 |
| eleitl | Germany sees no need, because renewables work | 02:42 |
| eleitl | thin-film PV will be cheaper than dirty coal | 02:42 |
| eleitl | we're getting 30 GWp/year | 02:42 |
| eleitl | we'll be getting 300 GWp/year rollout rate sometime | 02:43 |
| eleitl | that's some 100 GW class reactors annually | 02:43 |
| eleitl | fat chance | 02:43 |
| strangewarp | I dont trust advocates for renewable power, honestly, because they all seem to be.. non-futurist types | 02:45 |
| strangewarp | *don't | 02:45 |
| eleitl | if you're dealing with a problem which should have been started to be fixed 40 years ago, futurists are your enemy | 02:46 |
| eleitl | they will fuck you up | 02:46 |
| strangewarp | Nobody seems to be crunching the question of just how much power would be required by continued economic and technological growth, because it's much comfier to imagine a world where people live 1990's lives, and a giant array of solar panels is enough... | 02:46 |
| eleitl | don't try futurists | 02:46 |
| eleitl | it's about deployment of existing solutions | 02:46 |
| eleitl | you can't build a planetful of new shit in 40 years | 02:46 |
| eleitl | because new shit takes 30 years minimum, and then 40 years to deploy | 02:47 |
| eleitl | so you need old shit | 02:47 |
| eleitl | your friends from the future aren't | 02:47 |
| strangewarp | I wonder whether mature nanotech/replicators would short-circuit that deployment cycle, though... | 02:47 |
| eleitl | if we start working on MNT now, we will have first prototypes in 40 years | 02:48 |
| eleitl | but nobody works on MNT now, so forget it | 02:48 |
| eleitl | you need to spend some 1-3% of world GDP on nano for the next 40 years for that | 02:48 |
| eleitl | but you also need to spend at least that much for shifting energy, and resource and food base to sustainability as well, and that arguably will take twice that much | 02:49 |
| eleitl | nobody thinks spending 2-6% of GDP is worthwhile, or can even be done | 02:49 |
| eleitl | it's a war-scale effort | 02:49 |
| eleitl | because we're at war, and we're losing | 02:50 |
| eleitl | casualties will be 1-3 gpeople, unless we fix our actr | 02:50 |
| eleitl | act | 02:50 |
| phm_ | scary | 02:50 |
| eleitl | the degradation so far is slow enough that people don't notice | 02:51 |
| eleitl | very few think we even have a problem | 02:51 |
| eleitl | look at futurists, they think I'm a shrill doomer | 02:52 |
| eleitl | they think The Oil Drum guys are full of shit | 02:52 |
| phm_ | I don't know what to think | 02:52 |
| eleitl | instead, it's the official numbers that have been shown to be full of shit, again and again | 02:52 |
| phm_ | but I'm scared | 02:52 |
| eleitl | it's good | 02:52 |
| eleitl | you're farther than most | 02:53 |
| eleitl | most don't see a problem at all | 02:53 |
| eleitl | they complain about gas numbers, and why everything is getting so expensive | 02:53 |
| u-metacognition | Problem with what? | 02:53 |
| phm_ | they bury their heads in the sand. It's easy for humans to do. | 02:53 |
| eleitl | Basically, that the Club of Rome are qualitatively right, in the World3 model. | 02:53 |
| strangewarp | I think it may be premature to panic about the future, and I definitely think pretending to be superior based on how much you panic is counterproductive | 02:54 |
| eleitl | That we need a war-scale effort at this point. | 02:54 |
| eleitl | I'm not premature. I'm 30 years too late. | 02:54 |
| eleitl | I don't claim superiority, I'm just trying to get more people aware of the problem. | 02:54 |
| eleitl | Not dreaming about fusion, or MSR, or magic nano. | 02:55 |
| eleitl | Green revolution has backfired, there is your anti-progress message right there. | 02:55 |
| phm_ | What's the point of raising awareness? Aren't all the smart people already concerned? | 02:55 |
| eleitl | Do you think the world is run by smart people? | 02:56 |
| phm_ | No, I think the people who run the world will bury their heads in the sand. They don't want to be made aware. They are delusional. | 02:56 |
| phm_ | So they're not going to help us | 02:57 |
| eleitl | Look at what Chu is doing. He's a smart guy, but for some reason his department hasn't been able to do much. | 02:58 |
| eleitl | Clearly he is not getting as much funding as he should be getting, probably by an order of magnitude, if not two. | 02:58 |
| eleitl | You need TUSD budget to budge this, given that the time has ran out. | 02:58 |
| phm_ | So you think that raising general awareness will increase his chances of getting more funding? | 02:59 |
| eleitl | just googled: http://energy.gov/articles/chu-president-s-2013-energy-budget-makes-critical-investments-innovation-clean-energy-and | 02:59 |
| eleitl | $27.2 billion Fiscal Year 2013 budget request for the Department of Energy | 02:59 |
| eleitl | hi hi ha ha | 02:59 |
| eleitl | $60 million to perform critical research on energy storage systems and devise new approaches for battery storage | 03:00 |
| eleitl | $770 million for nuclear energy, including $65 million for cost-shared awards to support first-of-a-kind small modular reactors and $60 million for nuclear waste R&D that aligns with the recommendations of the Blue Ribbon Commission on America’s Nuclear Future; | 03:00 |
| eleitl | ^^^^ that's completely ass-backwards | 03:00 |
| eleitl | read the budget breakup, and weep | 03:01 |
| eleitl | US is fucked | 03:01 |
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| eleitl | heh, Thiel was in Munich the other day | 03:05 |
| strangewarp | Damn | 03:09 |
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| strangewarp | I read an article a couple months ago where one of MIT's engineering faculty said they were working on a replicator that uses a bank of ribosomes to print multiple materials at once, but now I can't seem to find it, or any corroborating information | 03:10 |
| strangewarp | I remember that the article was written for a very casual audience, so the lede was super buried.. | 03:11 |
| eleitl | don't remember reading that | 03:20 |
| eleitl | hah, found someone to weld my stainless, finally | 03:23 |
| strangewarp | hmmm | 03:25 |
| strangewarp | think I'll grab some food, play a bit of HL2, and then do some hardware hacking | 03:25 |
| eleitl | sounds like a good plan | 03:25 |
| strangewarp | I'm trying a couple new tactics for increasing productivity that have worked for friends of mine - namely, programmatic work logging, and succeeding at video games for an hour or two per day. | 03:26 |
| strangewarp | The former encourages regular work; the latter limbers up the mind and builds confidence. | 03:26 |
| eleitl | it is also rewarding | 03:27 |
| * strangewarp nods | 03:27 | |
| eleitl | you're supposed to treat yourself after success, for positive reinforcement | 03:27 |
| phm_ | is your bike a bent? | 03:28 |
| eleitl | pardon? | 03:28 |
| phm_ | is your push bike a recumbent? | 03:29 |
| * eleitl has a normal mountain bike | 03:29 | |
| eleitl | unfortunately, quite useless in winter | 03:30 |
| eleitl | 17% of US' GDP is for heath expeditures | 03:39 |
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| eleitl | sorry, that's 18%, and rising | 03:40 |
| eleitl | what I find super-annoying about electronic communication that frequently it just goes to /dev/null | 03:43 |
| eleitl | there's no feedback to see whether the person is even there | 03:43 |
| eleitl | this is not about IRC, which designed to be throwaway, but even email and Skype messages | 03:43 |
| eleitl | it seems you have to corral people in person, whether video, or an actual room | 03:44 |
| eleitl | http://singularityhub.com/2013/01/22/robot-serves-up-340-hamburgers-per-hour/ | 03:46 |
| phm_ | Yeah. The software we have at the moment is pathetic. | 03:46 |
| phm_ | I wonder how much 3D ICC payed for the IP of teleplace. Would Prisco know? | 03:49 |
| archels | eleitl: I tend to interpret this is as, the content of my message was of insufficient quality to rouse the other party's attention and/or evoke a response. | 03:49 |
| strangewarp | Meh, people idle a lot, so when I speak into the void I just assume everyone's asleep or working | 03:50 |
| strangewarp | This can be solved by reading the backlog... but if you clog the backlog with low-quality chatter, people are less likely to read it. I like to think that /that/ realization encourages people to be more interesting... | 03:51 |
| eleitl | ask prisco, or even teitelbaum | 03:52 |
| eleitl | achels, in case of people who I know are motivated, it indicates of degradation of a medium | 03:52 |
| eleitl | of course you can use that a definition, and just drop people from the team | 03:53 |
| eleitl | you don't read/answer my emails, you're off the team | 03:53 |
| eleitl | except when you're trying to get money or work or equivalents from other people | 03:53 |
| phm_ | have you tried openCobalt? How does it compare to qwaq? | 03:54 |
| eleitl | OpenQwaq is the enterprise fork of OpenCobalt. In a sense, TelePlace is extension/pointy-hair set of templates. | 03:54 |
| eleitl | it's also dead, but then, so is OpenQwaq | 03:55 |
| phm_ | No it isn't | 03:55 |
| eleitl | they're doing things in JavaScript in the browser now, which I don't like | 03:55 |
| strangewarp | I'm intrigued by Jquery / Node.js, despite all their baggage.. | 03:55 |
| eleitl | it's official that they're no longer doing OpenQwaq development | 03:55 |
| phm_ | That's not what I was told from a guy that works at 3D ICC | 03:56 |
| strangewarp | Probably going to rewrite my productivity script in JS, and store its data in JSON, once I'm on an up-to-date webhost | 03:56 |
| eleitl | I wonder how they solve the server-side in JavaScript in OQ. | 03:56 |
| eleitl | phm_, can you tell me more? | 03:56 |
| eleitl | it looks like they're focusing on OpenCroquet 2, which is JS in browser | 03:56 |
| phm_ | Most of their energy is going into Terf at the moment, but they are still working on OpenQwaq. | 03:57 |
| eleitl | Terf being OpenCroquet 2? I thought OpenTerf was the name of their proprietary client. | 03:57 |
| phm_ | No. Terf is what teleplace called qwaq 4.0 I think. | 03:57 |
| phm_ | Terf is still smalltalk | 03:58 |
| phm_ | unless I'm mistaken | 03:58 |
| eleitl | the only client I use is OpenQwaq 1.0.15 , built 2012-04-22-2129 | 03:58 |
| eleitl | oh, somebody put a demon statue in front of me | 03:59 |
| eleitl | nice | 03:59 |
| phm_ | And Cobalt came directely from openCroquet. not a fork of qwaq. They are quite different now | 03:59 |
| eleitl | did you import the 3d shapes, phm_? | 04:00 |
| phm_ | Nope. Dunno who did that | 04:00 |
| strangewarp | Might just install Node.js on my machine, learn its guts, do a rewrite of my productivity script in a staging area using Nodejs/passportjs/Jquery/bootstrap, and push it to Github, since I think this is the first thing I've written that would actually help people who aren't musicians. Hmmmmmm... | 04:00 |
| eleitl | looks like khannea's work, if anything | 04:00 |
| phm_ | I'm waiting for my XP cd to arrive so I can put it on virtualbox and run Terf in that. | 04:01 |
| eleitl | Node.js looks like it's here to say, strangewrap, so sounds like a good plan | 04:01 |
| eleitl | nice thing about OQ, it goes smack through corporate firewalls, with proxies | 04:01 |
| eleitl | a friend of mine used it from inside Intel, no problem | 04:02 |
| eleitl | not completely sure about proxies, haven't tested that personally | 04:02 |
| phm_ | Does openTerf even exist? Terf is their proprietary client. | 04:04 |
| superkuh | paperbot: http://www.opticsinfobase.org/oe/abstract.cfm?URI=oe-21-101-A60 | 04:04 |
| paperbot | http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/paperbot/93566bc215fae014cf36cd22a4cdb0ae.txt | 04:04 |
| eleitl | it's probably Terf, I'm getting confused in all the name deluge | 04:04 |
| eleitl | I'm leery of proprietary clients in general, and only OpenQwaq is semi-open-source | 04:04 |
| superkuh | paperbot: http://www.opticsinfobase.org/oe/viewmedia.cfm?uri=oe-21-S1-A60&seq=0 | 04:05 |
| paperbot | no translator available, raw dump: http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/paperbot/f4d373d64ac8947131d9576886bc7b37.txt | 04:05 |
| eleitl | it's a bitch to build, with all the codecs | 04:05 |
| bkero | What's not open about it? | 04:05 |
| eleitl | I'm told it's the build environment | 04:05 |
| eleitl | could be just as simple as a Makefile | 04:05 |
| phm_ | Do you know openQwaq has a python interpreter build into it? I was amazed | 04:05 |
| phm_ | built | 04:05 |
| * eleitl did know that | 04:05 | |
| eleitl | many things are baked in there, a bit frankensteinian | 04:06 |
| eleitl | would be nice to see whether you can get hardware accelerated physics | 04:06 |
| phm_ | it's crazy though. They could have just used smalltalk to script | 04:06 |
| eleitl | Smalltalk was ported to Tilera, it can dig that model | 04:06 |
| eleitl | don't ask me about their design decisions | 04:07 |
| phm_ | you say OpenCroquet 2 is all js? That seems impossible. You have a link to info? I can't find | 04:13 |
| * eleitl goes find it | 04:14 | |
| eleitl | first email http://postbiota.org/pipermail/tt/2012-January/010403.html | 04:16 |
| eleitl | it's VWF now: http://xent.com/pipermail/fork/Week-of-Mon-20121217/062362.html | 04:18 |
| eleitl | not many people noticed | 04:19 |
| eleitl | Giulio didn't knew, either | 04:19 |
| eleitl | their development model is not very open | 04:20 |
| eleitl | while they're a for-profit company, and have been good guys (OpenQwaq) in the past, I'm a bit wary | 04:20 |
| phm_ | " So some work go into Terf (closed) and some will either immediately or in time arrive in OQ." | 04:28 |
| eleitl | all I need is a usable OQ I can install on my own servers | 04:29 |
| eleitl | the proprietary client is good enough as is, all I need is ability to build the checked out codebase | 04:30 |
| eleitl | giulio says it's about a man-month, no idea why | 04:30 |
| eleitl | nobody I know is willing to invest that much work | 04:31 |
| phm_ | huh? man-month to do what? | 04:31 |
| eleitl | to make it build -- again, don't ask me why | 04:31 |
| eleitl | just check it out, and try to build it | 04:31 |
| phm_ | I haven't looked at the server yet. | 04:32 |
| eleitl | server and client is the same thing, minus the visuals | 04:32 |
| eleitl | http://code.google.com/p/openqwaq/wiki/detailedLinuxInstructions | 04:33 |
| eleitl | I couldn't make it work on Ubuntu 12.04 | 04:33 |
| eleitl | it's easiest on CentOS with 32 bit | 04:34 |
| eleitl | notice that it doesn't allow you to use video with opencodecs | 04:35 |
| eleitl | streaming video is very important, so it's pretty useless as is | 04:35 |
| eleitl | phm_, if you have some spare time, you could look into that | 04:37 |
| eleitl | that would be a very valuable thing to have | 04:37 |
| phm_ | Yeah. It's already on my to do list. | 04:38 |
| eleitl | Great. If I had money, I would actually donate to this. As is, I'm tapped out. | 04:38 |
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| phm_ | It is compatible with Squeak 4.1 and Pharo 1.2, has full closure support and was | 04:51 |
| phm_ | tested with 8 cores, 16 hyperthreads on Intel systems/tested with 56 cores on Tilera TILE64/TILEPro64 processors. | 04:51 |
| phm_ | cool | 04:51 |
| eleitl | yeah, the Tilera part is a major win | 04:52 |
| eleitl | expect that all high-performance systems look that way | 04:52 |
| eleitl | in near future | 04:52 |
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| eudoxia | hi eleitl, phm_ | 04:59 |
| eleitl | hi eudoxia | 04:59 |
| eleitl | I have a plan for a cryonics technical list. Do you think you could be a co-moderator? | 05:00 |
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| eleitl | Big guns strictly, invitation only, low-traffic. | 05:00 |
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| eleitl | hi eudoxia | 05:04 |
| eleitl | I have a plan for a cryonics technical list. Do you think you could be a co-moderator? | 05:04 |
| eudoxia | whoops connection problems | 05:04 |
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| * eleitl noticed | 05:04 | |
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| * eudoxia doesn't even know how to unsubscribe from a mailing list | 05:06 | |
| eleitl | it's basically just a backup, in case I got hit by a bus | 05:06 |
| eudoxia | i suppose i could | 05:07 |
| eleitl | thanks, great | 05:07 |
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| eleitl | He who forgets to write for the laxative with the opiates, performs the manual disimpaction. | 05:11 |
| eleitl | Moar comedy gold at http://www.reddit.com/r/medicine/comments/1734ux/youre_not_dead_until_youre_warm_and_dead_meddit/ | 05:13 |
| archels | "Trust, but verify." | 05:18 |
| eudoxia | 'When in doubt, cut it out.' | 05:23 |
| eudoxia | moderately useful when coding | 05:23 |
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| heath | 17% of US' GDP is for heath expeditures | 06:11 |
| heath | gawd, i wish that was true | 06:11 |
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| heath | [05:39:16] <eleitl> 17% of US' GDP is for heath expeditures | 06:12 |
| cathalgarvey | I wonder does that include Military spending on "Healthcare" | 06:12 |
| cathalgarvey | Although, of overall public spending, you would expect a nation to spend most on education and health, especially considering healthcare for pensioners. | 06:13 |
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| cathalgarvey | Although I have my doubts that the US does so, too. | 06:13 |
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| chris_99 | is there a site keeping track of open hardware out of curiousity? | 06:23 |
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| cathalgarvey | This latest GMO scare story hurts my brain | 06:35 |
| eudoxia | link | 06:36 |
| cathalgarvey | From the mailing list: http://independentsciencenews.org/commentaries/regulators-discover-a-hidden-viral-gene-in-commercial-gmo-crops/ | 06:37 |
| cathalgarvey | FYI if you're not following that thread, just follow the citation in the article and read the abstract. It's entirely out of context in the article, but even the citation makes all sorts of ridiculous hypothetical conclusions, even though it casually discounts the risk of toxic or allergenic outcomes. | 06:38 |
| cathalgarvey | The article was more the brain-hurting part though. Apparently we're all going to catch Cauliflower Mosaic Virus from GMO crops. What happens then is anyone's guess. | 06:39 |
| cathalgarvey | Perhaps we become cauliflowers. | 06:39 |
| eleitl | there's no reason to have GMO in the food chain | 06:41 |
| eleitl | apart from DRM issues, it just doesn't have enough value, and potentially there are plenty of problems | 06:41 |
| eleitl | the only reason you could think of is to engineer draught-resistant crops which can take higher salinity | 06:42 |
| eleitl | even pest resistance should be be addressed with robotics, not toxins | 06:43 |
| cathalgarvey | Whether or not you think there's a need has no bearing on whether or not it's safe. | 06:43 |
| eleitl | nobody can say whether it's safe | 06:44 |
| cathalgarvey | Can you say whether eating natural crops is safe? | 06:44 |
| eleitl | no, it is not safe, which is why we deal it by gathering information about it | 06:44 |
| cathalgarvey | You mean natural crops can be assessed by gathering information? | 06:45 |
| cathalgarvey | But somehow the same cannot be done with GMO crops? | 06:45 |
| eleitl | if you have Monsanto jumping in, and bolloxing up seed availability, and contaminating old crop lines with unknown crap, that's not helping. | 06:45 |
| eleitl | no extensive testing is done on GMO crops. Nobody has the money for that. | 06:45 |
| cathalgarvey | I'll agree with the Monsanto DRM/Availability crap | 06:45 |
| cathalgarvey | but what they're adding (contaminating) is widely documented. | 06:46 |
| cathalgarvey | It's not even a little bit "unknown" | 06:46 |
| cathalgarvey | And plenty of extensive testing has been done, and continues to be done | 06:46 |
| eleitl | I see plenty of value in red biotech, but green biotech is one huge sack of problems. | 06:46 |
| cathalgarvey | That's why EFSA are in charge of crop approval in the EU: to assess safety testing. If it didn't exist, it would all be a bit moot. | 06:46 |
| eleitl | One potential is engineering algae, particularly algae in extreme habitats (high-pH, high-salinity) which can persist against wild type | 06:47 |
| eleitl | not at all sure that can be done | 06:47 |
| eleitl | wild type is there for a reason | 06:47 |
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| eleitl | outcompeting wild type by engineered type, that's a major challenge | 06:48 |
| cathalgarvey | ..how is engineering single-celled organisms responsible for 20% of global photosynthesis any safer than engineering highly domesticated, easily contained strains of edible crops? | 06:48 |
| eleitl | because few halophiles thrive at pH 11 | 06:49 |
| eleitl | and becase we are kinda desperate | 06:49 |
| cathalgarvey | So we'll grow all our crops at pH 11.. | 06:49 |
| cathalgarvey | what happens to all the waste salt after production? | 06:49 |
| eleitl | there is no waste salt, you keep it in the lake | 06:50 |
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| cathalgarvey | I'm still wondering how this is better than growing biodegradable, reduced chemical crops | 06:50 |
| eudoxia | that algae thing might be useful with the increasing acidity of the oceans | 06:50 |
| cathalgarvey | Increasing acidity means reduced pH | 06:50 |
| eleitl | you don't want engineered algae in the oceans | 06:50 |
| cathalgarvey | not pH 11 | 06:50 |
| cathalgarvey | Ah, I get you | 06:50 |
| eleitl | but e.g. Salton sea is pretty contained | 06:50 |
| eleitl | you can make up plenty more in deserts | 06:51 |
| cathalgarvey | I'm loving this Matrix style future where we all eat mushy algae | 06:51 |
| eleitl | food crops and energy crops, and also synthesis of precursors and pharmaceuticals | 06:51 |
| eleitl | Soylent green is algaaaaaae! | 06:51 |
| cathalgarvey | shaddap and eat your algae | 06:52 |
| eleitl | actually, Mate Ravasz is on our lab, though he hasn't done much yet | 06:52 |
| eleitl | he wants to do algae, which makes sense | 06:52 |
| eleitl | actually there's an internal market for used equipment at Helmholtz, which we might tap into, thanks to Mate | 07:04 |
| kanzure | openqwaq was always a silly idea. i think you guys should drop it and just use html. | 07:04 |
| eudoxia | i just like irc | 07:05 |
| eleitl | well, they did, they're now reimplementing it in HTML5 | 07:05 |
| eleitl | it is only a silly idea if you've completely forgotte how normal people work | 07:06 |
| eleitl | especially nontechnical people | 07:06 |
| eleitl | social cohesiveness is created face to face | 07:06 |
| eleitl | text stream is a very poor substitute, for normal people | 07:07 |
| kanzure | aah eleitl is a slave to CAS. interesting development. | 07:07 |
| eleitl | Technically I've been a second-degree slave to CAS for the last 11 years | 07:08 |
| eleitl | First-degree slave to Springer. | 07:08 |
| eleitl | I've actually had to deal with Wiley, though not yet with Elsevier, thankfully | 07:08 |
| eleitl | I also eat babies. It helps to pay the bills. | 07:09 |
| eleitl | heh, just got an email from my kid | 07:17 |
| eleitl | at least from his phone, he took the picture | 07:17 |
| kanzure | i found a remote code execution vulnerability in springer once | 07:18 |
| kanzure | good times | 07:18 |
| eleitl | springerlink? | 07:18 |
| kanzure | indeed sir | 07:18 |
| kanzure | those fuckers can die in a terrible hell | 07:18 |
| eleitl | we're supposed to chemify springerlink | 07:18 |
| kanzure | chemify? | 07:19 |
| eleitl | mine the thing for chemical info, and make it searchable | 07:19 |
| kanzure | searchable to who? | 07:19 |
| eleitl | to those who gatekeepers will admit, after paying the toll | 07:19 |
| kanzure | these companies love to do work like that.. "it's searchable, but only if you're at MIT" | 07:19 |
| kanzure | yep ok | 07:19 |
| eleitl | but you can buy the paper for the low, low price of 30 USD! | 07:20 |
| kanzure | i've always wondered why there isn't a mole at springer that just dumps all the hard drives somewhere on the web | 07:20 |
| eleitl | probably, some of that content is already at libgen | 07:21 |
| * eleitl hasn't checked | 07:21 | |
| kanzure | not much of it | 07:22 |
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| eleitl | it looks like Zero State will be renting a virtual server in Iceland | 07:22 |
| kanzure | uh.. so what? | 07:23 |
| kanzure | i mean.. why does that require an entire group to do that | 07:23 |
| eleitl | it's a test of commitment | 07:23 |
| eudoxia | what are they going to do with it? | 07:23 |
| eleitl | I'm not very happy with the result, so far | 07:23 |
| kanzure | what? it's a test of commitment to pay $20/mo for a server? | 07:24 |
| eleitl | we're going to make it a core piece of infrastructure | 07:24 |
| kanzure | that's a lousy test. | 07:24 |
| eleitl | how do you gauge how much people are willing to do? | 07:24 |
| kanzure | currently my own budget is at least 10x that for server infrastructure | 07:24 |
| kanzure | you don't. | 07:24 |
| eleitl | well, mine is higher | 07:24 |
| kanzure | okay.. then why do you need this zero state person to do it? | 07:24 |
| eleitl | I need to see whether people would want to put money where their mouth is, and actually use the infrastructure | 07:25 |
| kanzure | also, i strongly disagree with your use of reddit. | 07:25 |
| eleitl | use of reddit for what? | 07:25 |
| kanzure | in general. | 07:25 |
| eleitl | for wasting time? | 07:25 |
| kanzure | no, i see you linking to in non-time-wasting contexts | 07:25 |
| kanzure | it is going to eat your mind away and i will lose you | 07:26 |
| kanzure | like we lost sandberg | 07:26 |
| eleitl | I've been there for 7 years | 07:26 |
| kanzure | plus, it's obvious... http://www.reddit.com/user/eleitl | 07:26 |
| kanzure | yes i'm aware. | 07:26 |
| eleitl | I consider reddit a net positive for me personally | 07:27 |
| eleitl | there were times where I was ready to delete my account, though | 07:27 |
| kanzure | after observing the redditors that come in here, i find that exceedingly hard to believe | 07:27 |
| kanzure | they are in general even worse than zero state | 07:27 |
| eleitl | there are diamonds buried in the crap heap | 07:27 |
| eleitl | I have pretty good filters for that | 07:27 |
| chido | why is that? | 07:27 |
| kanzure | why is which one? | 07:28 |
| eleitl | you just have to set up good subreddits, and read rapidly | 07:28 |
| chido | why is reddit bad for you | 07:28 |
| kanzure | i've never bought that argument about "it's about the subreddits". because if you look at the subreddits, they are all terrible. | 07:28 |
| kanzure | chido: haven't you seen the redditors that come in here and totally crash the channel? | 07:29 |
| eleitl | not all of them are terrible, there are well-moderated ones | 07:29 |
| chido | I wasn't aware of them being redditors | 07:29 |
| kanzure | chido: most of them are. it's easy to tell by asking them. | 07:29 |
| eudoxia | specifically who is a redditor? | 07:29 |
| eudoxia | so i can grep the logs | 07:29 |
| eleitl | the reddit transhumanists are very bad, admittedly | 07:29 |
| kanzure | delinquentme. | 07:29 |
| chido | oh. | 07:29 |
| kanzure | he's the most notable, but there are others that show up just once and then, finally, leave. | 07:30 |
| eleitl | the age histogram of reddit is not good, and they draw the wrong type, so the bulk is self-selected | 07:30 |
| kanzure | ageism doesn't matter | 07:31 |
| kanzure | i still like to pretend that 12 year old me has a chance | 07:31 |
| eleitl | young people are far more stupid | 07:31 |
| eleitl | they can't help it, they haven't been around to learn | 07:31 |
| eudoxia | kanz started work on skdb when he was 17 i think | 07:31 |
| eleitl | bryan is not your average guy | 07:32 |
| chido | on the other hand, young people learn fast | 07:32 |
| kanzure | eudoxia: http://google.com/search?q=kanzure my history goes back to at least 2002 on the web | 07:32 |
| chido | I wish I started earlier | 07:32 |
| eleitl | you have it easy, gopher web was tiny | 07:33 |
| eleitl | all we had was ftp and usenet | 07:34 |
| kanzure | i'd take usenet over this crap | 07:34 |
| eleitl | and email | 07:34 |
| eleitl | how old is IRC? | 07:34 |
| eudoxia | 24 years | 07:34 |
| eleitl | it seems I'm also pre-IRC, at least widely used | 07:35 |
| eleitl | I don't know what happens to Giulio | 07:37 |
| eleitl | He's either becoming kooky in his old age, or he pursues some agenda I can't fathom | 07:37 |
| eleitl | http://turingchurch.com/2013/01/23/can-science-resurrect-the-dead/ <-- e.g. this | 07:37 |
| eudoxia | the whole turing church thing is just | 07:38 |
| eleitl | Terasem, too. Horrible stuff. | 07:38 |
| eudoxia | that too | 07:38 |
| eudoxia | people and their religions, god damn | 07:38 |
| kanzure | eudoxia: you should add "order of cosmic engineers" to your "terrible religions list" | 07:38 |
| eudoxia | i noticed that in the log | 07:38 |
| kanzure | ah good | 07:38 |
| eudoxia | i don't know how i forgot | 07:38 |
| kanzure | it happens | 07:38 |
| kanzure | it's worth forgetting | 07:38 |
| eudoxia | their site is down too so they might fade out without living much of an imprint | 07:39 |
| eudoxia | unlike fucking Terasem | 07:39 |
| eudoxia | they took the Chamberlains too | 07:39 |
| eleitl | yes, I have met the Chamberlains there | 07:39 |
| eleitl | nobody is safe, it seems | 07:39 |
| eudoxia | all this feel-good, New Age nonsense | 07:43 |
| kanzure | eleitl: what is today's plan? | 07:43 |
| eudoxia | the worst part is that it's not even a "small vocal minority" | 07:43 |
| eleitl | I've bought a bunch of stuff today for the lab | 07:43 |
| kanzure | eleitl: also, i would appreciate your take on http://diyhpl.us/wiki/declaration even though i know it's off topic and counter-productive | 07:43 |
| eleitl | hope to get a quote for a 110 kg DMSO drum | 07:43 |
| eleitl | check your private /msg kanzure | 07:44 |
| kanzure | okay. | 07:44 |
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| kanzure | eleitl: in general, it is good practice to tell me to check my private messages because my irc client sometimes fails to notify me that they exist | 07:48 |
| eleitl | irssi is kinda not very talkative either | 07:48 |
| kanzure | well, i have 300 windows open in irssi and it uses horizontal tabs | 07:49 |
| kanzure | i think there might be a vertical tab plugin somewhere | 07:49 |
| cathalgarvey | Irssi being Irssi I'm sure there's a batty plugin to make it more obvious. | 07:49 |
| eleitl | I think I have some 550 tabs open in the browser | 07:49 |
| kanzure | which browser | 07:49 |
| cathalgarvey | GTG folks, it's awkward-bureaucracy time! | 07:49 |
| eleitl | I'm on Waterfox on Windows since yesterday | 07:49 |
| eleitl | was on nightly, until they killed it | 07:50 |
| kanzure | eleitl: recently i started playing with xmonad and getting rid of alt-tab | 07:50 |
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| eleitl | Chromium and firefox on Linux. | 07:50 |
| kanzure | eleitl: so instead of alt-tabbing to what i want, i do alt-w and then i type the name of the window i want | 07:50 |
| kanzure | and instead of tabs in chromium/firebutt, i just use windows now, and let my window manager manage my windows. | 07:50 |
| eleitl | do you know that 'electronic grade' solvent exactly means? | 07:51 |
| kanzure | EtOh ? | 07:52 |
| eleitl | DMSO | 07:52 |
| kanzure | i was thinking one of those etchants | 07:52 |
| eleitl | what am I going to do with a 100-200 kg drum of DMSO im my garage? The in-laws will kill me. | 07:56 |
| kanzure | solution: kill the in-laws | 07:56 |
| kanzure | strike first | 07:56 |
| eleitl | well, we actually need experimental animals... | 07:56 |
| eleitl | win/win | 07:56 |
| kanzure | failing that, let me look up DMSO in my notes to see what projects there are. | 07:57 |
| eleitl | interesting that the use of DMF is covered by 21CM patent | 07:57 |
| eleitl | I will have to apply for a license, or exemption | 07:57 |
| kanzure | hah 21CM has patents.. i should have guessed. | 07:57 |
| eleitl | 21CM has patents up the wazoo | 07:57 |
| kanzure | are their patents registered in WIPO, or just the US? | 07:58 |
| eleitl | they're a science factory, and cover their ass(et)s | 07:58 |
| eleitl | no idea | 07:58 |
| kanzure | if they are just in the US, you might be safe | 07:58 |
| kanzure | but WIPO is like a global patenting syndicate, especially for the EU | 07:58 |
| eleitl | I wouldn't want to risk bad blood, I need all the help I can get. Beside, if I do contract work, I should be able to get an exemption. | 07:59 |
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| kanzure | background: http://wipo.int/ | 07:59 |
| eleitl | have you any idea what VM-2 is going to be? | 07:59 |
| eleitl | ah, eudoxia is no longer with us | 08:00 |
| * eleitl is very impressed with eudoxia | 08:01 | |
| chris_99 | ThomasEgi, have you use a magnetometer before btw? | 08:01 |
| ThomasEgi | befor what? dawn of time? | 08:01 |
| chris_99 | haha | 08:01 |
| chris_99 | well, have you used one full stop i guess | 08:02 |
| eleitl | 8-port 10 GBit/s Ethernet is down to 800 EUR now | 08:03 |
| eleitl | crappy Netgear, but, still | 08:03 |
| ThomasEgi | chris_99, i do have a couple of them in use as compass in some devices i sold. | 08:04 |
| chris_99 | cool, i don't suppose you know if theres any through-hole ones out there, i can't see to find any | 08:04 |
| ThomasEgi | hm. nope. | 08:05 |
| ThomasEgi | they are targeted for mobile devices and usualy come with LGA cases | 08:05 |
| ThomasEgi | but you can get most popular magnetometers on breakout boards | 08:05 |
| chris_99 | mm this is what i thought, yeah breakout boards are too big for me | 08:06 |
| archels | paperbot: https://github.com/oreillymedia/open_government/blob/master/open_government.pdf?raw=true | 08:06 |
| chris_99 | unfoutunatley | 08:06 |
| paperbot | no translator available, raw dump: http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/paperbot/770dac7b3f8f5252027e0660d184c5c5.pdf | 08:06 |
| chris_99 | ThomasEgi, did the one you used require a number of passives too | 08:06 |
| ThomasEgi | chris_99, a breakout board is exactly the size of a regular dip package | 08:06 |
| chris_99 | the ones i saw looks a fair bit bigger than a dip | 08:07 |
| ThomasEgi | yeah. but those are all soldered on the breakout | 08:07 |
| eleitl | thanks for pointing me to openworm, Kanzure | 08:07 |
| eleitl | how far are they? | 08:08 |
| ThomasEgi | one thing you can do. given you have a steady hand. is to glue the chip upside down on your pcb. and use wires to bond it manually. | 08:08 |
| kanzure | eleitl: i don't know the answer, sorry. they have a bunch of software that works. their openworm-in-a-browser-thing is supposed to work. | 08:08 |
| kanzure | http://browser.openworm.org/ | 08:09 |
| eleitl | are they trying a complete simulation from anatomy data? | 08:09 |
| ThomasEgi | chris_99, what are you planning to do with it? | 08:09 |
| kanzure | yes | 08:09 |
| eleitl | very nice | 08:09 |
| eleitl | it's the wrong first target, but if they succeed, the more power to them | 08:09 |
| kanzure | didn't you do c. elegans scanning back in the day? | 08:09 |
| chris_99 | ThomasEgi at the moment i'm planning to do this http://openhydrometer.com/about attaching hall effects to a hydrometer, but magnetometers seem more accurate | 08:09 |
| eleitl | yes, I did not knew htat it was not very useful back then | 08:09 |
| kanzure | i have backups of that here: | 08:09 |
| kanzure | http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/neuro/nematodeuploadproject/ | 08:10 |
| eleitl | there are reasons against doing C. elegans | 08:10 |
| kanzure | http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/neuro/nematodeuploadproject/snake-and-wormSlice_example.jpg | 08:10 |
| eleitl | it is too small for live recording and too optimized. it doesn't do spiking, e.g. | 08:10 |
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| eleitl | the reason I've switched to L. stagnalis is because it's easier, despite being apparently far more complex (20 k neurons) | 08:11 |
| kanzure | when i went to langton labs last time, there were a few people who were talking about openworm | 08:11 |
| kanzure | and anselm might have done some optogenetics work with it | 08:11 |
| eleitl | optogenetics is cool | 08:11 |
| eleitl | I've talked to Passaro, and he thinks the snail will cost 20 kUSD minimum, used hardware | 08:11 |
| kanzure | it's cool but only useful in limited contexts | 08:11 |
| eleitl | just getting sensible data, and cycle through dewar and back again, I mean | 08:12 |
| eleitl | nothing too racy | 08:12 |
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| eleitl | it's basically a snail version of Suda | 08:12 |
| ThomasEgi | chris_99, seems a bit overengineered to me. | 08:12 |
| eleitl | only highly instrumented | 08:12 |
| chris_99 | any sugestions, ThomasEgi | 08:13 |
| eleitl | can you think of a way of using the snail as a SENS animal model, kanzure? | 08:13 |
| ThomasEgi | chris_99, replace the magnet with a light source. and the magnetometers with a linear photo sensor. or a number of photo diodes. | 08:13 |
| eleitl | right now it looks we'll have to deal with mammal cells | 08:13 |
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| kanzure | eleitl: btw, https://github.com/openworm | 08:14 |
| chris_99 | ThomasEgi, hmm i have thought about that, but i thing to get a decent encoding on the hydrometer would be hard | 08:14 |
| kanzure | eleitl: btw, ParahSai1in (in here) worked at SENS | 08:14 |
| chris_99 | if thats what you mean | 08:14 |
| eudoxia | eleitl: VM-2 will be like VM-1 but there will be a warning label re mixing it with polyethylene glycol | 08:14 |
| ThomasEgi | you don't need any encoding. | 08:14 |
| chris_99 | that way you'd need loads of photo diodes | 08:14 |
| eleitl | they want PEG in there? why? | 08:14 |
| chris_99 | the advantage of the hall effects is they can sense above and below themselves | 08:15 |
| eudoxia | no i have no idea what it will be | 08:15 |
| eleitl | ok, I thought you were in the loop | 08:15 |
| eudoxia | haha no | 08:15 |
| eleitl | I should probably ask Pichugin, or whoever is it who designs it for them. Could be Aschwin, for all I know. | 08:15 |
| kanzure | aschwin de wolf? | 08:15 |
| eleitl | Yes, he's basically in charge of Alcor and CI R&D now. | 08:16 |
| ThomasEgi | chris_99, how bout a linear photo-sensor? they have like gazillions of photodiodes lined up nicely | 08:16 |
| eleitl | Plus, he's supported by LEF now, IIRC. | 08:16 |
| kanzure | supported means what? | 08:16 |
| eleitl | Plus, he issues the Alcor's house gazette. | 08:16 |
| eudoxia | funded? | 08:16 |
| chris_99 | hmm interesting ThomasEgi :) | 08:16 |
| eleitl | Funded, according to my sources, but I don't know for sure. | 08:17 |
| eleitl | Among us chickens, I'm worried about the situation in cryonics. | 08:17 |
| ThomasEgi | chris_99, this way can capture 2 line-images. one with the light off, one with the light on. subtract them to get rid of the environment light, then use the weighted average and you should be able to find the result you need with μm accuracy | 08:17 |
| eleitl | People say Alcor has lost 50% of membership in a very short time. | 08:18 |
| eudoxia | it what | 08:18 |
| chris_99 | i'm just wondering though if a linear image sensor may be slightly too heavy though | 08:18 |
| chris_99 | oh wait, if there was a a light on the hydrometer | 08:18 |
| chris_99 | and the linear image sensor floated | 08:18 |
| chris_99 | that'd work | 08:18 |
| ThomasEgi | should work just as well | 08:19 |
| chris_99 | mm | 08:19 |
| eleitl | it seems they still think 2% is a conservative investment scheme for patient funds | 08:19 |
| chris_99 | i might be able to use an old scanner ThomasEgi :) | 08:19 |
| ThomasEgi | yeah. or you buy one. | 08:20 |
| ThomasEgi | at least in germany you can get them for 2 euro | 08:20 |
| chris_99 | haha nice, i'll check fleabay | 08:20 |
| eleitl | you can get what for 2 euros? | 08:20 |
| ThomasEgi | eleitl, line-image-sensor | 08:20 |
| eleitl | linear CCD? | 08:20 |
| ThomasEgi | yep | 08:21 |
| eleitl | for what project? | 08:21 |
| ThomasEgi | chris_99, you could also use a triangilation sensor. they have a pretty nice analog output voltage. | 08:21 |
| chris_99 | to measure specific gravity, eleitl | 08:21 |
| ThomasEgi | all you'd have to do is make the sensor float, and add a piece of paper ontop of your floating thingy | 08:21 |
| chris_99 | ThomasEgi, interesting | 08:21 |
| eleitl | for which project is that? | 08:21 |
| eleitl | incidentally, do you have idea where to get a cheap USB refractometer? | 08:22 |
| ThomasEgi | chris_99, ultrasonic might work too. | 08:22 |
| chris_99 | eleitl, just for http://openhydrometer.com/about | 08:22 |
| chris_99 | mm i did think of ultrasound | 08:22 |
| chris_99 | i could put a plate ontop of the hydrometer | 08:22 |
| chris_99 | and measure the distance from that to the top | 08:22 |
| chris_99 | however they're not very accurate | 08:23 |
| ThomasEgi | receiver on the floating part, one the transmitter onthe hydrometer | 08:23 |
| eleitl | oic -- brewing? | 08:23 |
| chris_99 | yah | 08:23 |
| eleitl | in which city are you? | 08:23 |
| ThomasEgi | if you get the times messured, they are pretty good. | 08:23 |
| chris_99 | eleitl, in the UK | 08:23 |
| eleitl | ThomasEgi is in deutschland, then | 08:23 |
| ThomasEgi | good job reading eleitl ;) | 08:23 |
| * eleitl <-- munich | 08:23 | |
| eleitl | where are you? | 08:24 |
| ThomasEgi | ←? | 08:24 |
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| kanzure | yes | 08:25 |
| ThomasEgi | koblenz | 08:25 |
| eleitl | too bad, that's too far away | 08:25 |
| eleitl | ah, they have plenty of handheld refractometers on amazon | 08:26 |
| ThomasEgi | chris_99, you could also use a linear poti | 08:26 |
| ThomasEgi | given, it runs smooth enough | 08:27 |
| chris_99 | how would i use a linear pot? | 08:27 |
| chris_99 | theres not enough force from a hydrometer to directly attach to one | 08:27 |
| chris_99 | if thats what you mean | 08:27 |
| ThomasEgi | well.. you'd mount the poti on the float. the slider on the hydrometer | 08:27 |
| ThomasEgi | done. | 08:27 |
| chris_99 | not enough force imo | 08:27 |
| ThomasEgi | there isnt?.. that's unfortunate then. | 08:27 |
| chris_99 | mm | 08:28 |
| chris_99 | someone just mentioned to me some kind of force gauge i could hook to the top | 08:28 |
| chris_99 | of the hydrometer | 08:28 |
| chris_99 | not sure of any specific ones though | 08:28 |
| eleitl | if you're making fine, you can use index of refraction | 08:28 |
| eleitl | probably not enough sugar in beer | 08:28 |
| eleitl | wine | 08:29 |
| chris_99 | theres some problems with refractometers not being especially good for beer i've read | 08:29 |
| eleitl | yeah, you need a lot of sugar | 08:29 |
| chris_99 | also making an in-place refractometer isn't easy | 08:29 |
| ThomasEgi | chris_99, if you have a fixed volume underwater, the force it would experience would differ with the density of the liquid. you could make use of that,too. | 08:29 |
| eleitl | we need a flow-through refractometer | 08:29 |
| eleitl | right now making manual measurements with limited manpower is a bitch | 08:30 |
| chris_99 | ThomasEgi, yeah calculating the density, bit of a pain though as you'd need exact volume etc. | 08:30 |
| chris_99 | eleitl, i found one on ebay but it was like £140 | 08:30 |
| chris_99 | a while ago | 08:30 |
| eleitl | that looks cheap, for a digital one | 08:31 |
| chris_99 | that was for something you dip in the sugar solution if that's what you mean, and just leave it there, you might be talking about something different though? | 08:32 |
| ThomasEgi | chris_99, you can probably just do it the experimental way.. by filling the thing up with water. | 08:32 |
| chris_99 | mm that would be possible | 08:32 |
| eleitl | we have to measure effluate, so it's a flow-through cell | 08:32 |
| chris_99 | aha | 08:32 |
| eleitl | other options would take aliquots periodically, and measure and record them by hand | 08:33 |
| eleitl | this is bound to cause plenty of missed data | 08:33 |
| chris_99 | mm | 08:34 |
| eleitl | 456 refractometers on ebay, almost all of them handheld | 08:36 |
| chris_99 | yeah | 08:37 |
| chris_99 | ThomasEgi, when you said 2 euro was that for just the sensor right? | 08:38 |
| chris_99 | could you link to one per chance | 08:38 |
| ThomasEgi | yeah | 08:38 |
| ThomasEgi | http://www.pollin.de/shop/p/ODg4OTk4/Bauelemente_Bauteile/Aktive_Bauelemente/Optoelektronik.html | 08:38 |
| ThomasEgi | right ontop | 08:38 |
| chris_99 | cheers | 08:38 |
| chris_99 | that should work really well i reckon | 08:40 |
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| ThomasEgi | btw.. doesnt the speed of sound change with the density,too? | 08:40 |
| eleitl | it does | 08:40 |
| eleitl | speed of light, too | 08:40 |
| ThomasEgi | so you could simly wrap ultrasonic receiver and transmitter in plastic and put it in there? | 08:41 |
| ThomasEgi | no clue how well that would work | 08:41 |
| chris_99 | hmm interesting | 08:41 |
| ThomasEgi | speed of sound in water is pretty crazy fast | 08:41 |
| eleitl | you'll need temperature compensation | 08:41 |
| chris_99 | yup | 08:41 |
| ThomasEgi | so... you probably have to massure phase angles with an AC bride | 08:41 |
| ThomasEgi | btw. same shop sells the magnetometer | 08:45 |
| ThomasEgi | http://www.pollin.de/shop/dt/NTM4OTgxOTk-/Bausaetze_Module/Module/Kompassmodul_HDMM01.html | 08:45 |
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| eleitl | thought it was from a scanner | 08:48 |
| ThomasEgi | the ccd? | 08:50 |
| eleitl | yeah | 08:50 |
| ThomasEgi | yeah. those are old scanner ccd's | 08:51 |
| chris_99 | they're not big enough to be scanner ones are they | 08:53 |
| chris_99 | or is that image size decieving me | 08:53 |
| eleitl | handscanners, probably | 08:53 |
| chris_99 | aha | 08:53 |
| chris_99 | yeah | 08:53 |
| eleitl | you can use optics to go from A4, too | 08:53 |
| eleitl | Si real estate is expensive | 08:53 |
| chris_99 | actually 210 × 297 mm | 08:53 |
| chris_99 | means it is a4 i think | 08:54 |
| strangewarp | [08:37] <eleitl> http://turingchurch.com/2013/01/23/can-science-resurrect-the-dead/ <-- e.g. this | 08:54 |
| strangewarp | I have a special anger for Turing Church | 08:54 |
| eleitl | tell me | 08:54 |
| strangewarp | You could rehabilitate cosmism with a combination of cognitive materialism and Big Universe, and it would be an extremely compelling theology, but no, they didn't do that at all | 08:55 |
| strangewarp | Instead they just wave their hands and tell people to pray to the Omega State, which is both stupid and unlikely | 08:55 |
| eleitl | I really don't understand Giulio anymore | 08:55 |
| strangewarp | It almost strikes me as a post-Discordian arbitrary-selection-of-stupid-philosophy-to-scare-the-normals-and-feel-clever, ugh | 08:56 |
| kanzure | maybe giulio suffered a stroke | 08:56 |
| eleitl | maybe it's the fear of death, no idea | 08:56 |
| eleitl | people tend to start grasping at straws when the going gets tough | 08:56 |
| ThomasEgi | chris_99, the active sensor is roughly 30mm long | 08:57 |
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| chris_99 | 3cm, that seems pretty small | 08:58 |
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| eleitl | there are also some cryonicists, which are just as appalling | 08:58 |
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| eleitl | this blind belief that nothing can ever be destroyed, and everything is reversible is also grating on my nerves | 08:59 |
| chris_99 | back in a bit, cheers for your help ThomasEgi | 08:59 |
| kanzure | brlcad has a web thing now? https://github.com/GreatDevelopers/wBRLCAD | 08:59 |
| kanzure | http://cad.devplace.in/form.html | 08:59 |
| ThomasEgi | chris_99, another way would be to use coils. instead of a magnet. and messure the AC voltages from an array of coils. | 08:59 |
| kanzure | i bet it just uses a hosted version of brlcad somewhere | 08:59 |
| ThomasEgi | pretty low tech and only requires a bunch of analog input pins | 09:00 |
| kanzure | "cgi-bin/wBRLCAD/table" ah.. | 09:00 |
| kanzure | eww https://github.com/GreatDevelopers/wBRLCAD/blob/master/table | 09:00 |
| kanzure | what the fuck guys | 09:00 |
| kanzure | nevermind. forget i mentioned it. | 09:01 |
| eudoxia | strangewarp: it's not nearly that complex, just a PRAISE TIPLER circlejerk | 09:02 |
| eleitl | they probably haven't gotten the memo that Omega Point is dead | 09:02 |
| strangewarp | ugghhh | 09:02 |
| eudoxia | Tipler is such a nutjob | 09:02 |
| eleitl | at least he made his religion falsifyable | 09:03 |
| eleitl | if only his followers would actually read him, and look at the predictions | 09:03 |
| eleitl | the appendix is also very good, and it's the only good part in the whole book, actually | 09:03 |
| kanzure | funny, i said the same thing about TSiN | 09:04 |
| eleitl | TSiN? | 09:04 |
| strangewarp | Anyone who still thinks Omega Point is likely needs deprogramming. However, if you replace it with Big Universe, it's kind of a fascinating thought-experiment. Which is why it's a pain in the ass that all these new-age wackos keep throwing their bodies on top of the concepts. blaaahhh | 09:04 |
| kanzure | the singularity is near | 09:04 |
| kanzure | "ray kurzweil reads extropy-chat for a few hours, then writes a book about it." the bibliography was basically "extropy-chat". | 09:04 |
| eleitl | never read that. Kurzweil gives me acid reflux. | 09:04 |
| eudoxia | eleitl: predictions in the 'what we'd expect to see if we ran X physics experiement', no? | 09:05 |
| eudoxia | i mean, in that sense | 09:05 |
| eleitl | no, we find particl XY at Z energy | 09:05 |
| eleitl | we didn't, so it's dead | 09:05 |
| eudoxia | yeah things like that | 09:05 |
| kanzure | eleitl: ever hear of helloween or gamma ray? | 09:05 |
| eleitl | universe is open, the show stops at +16.7 GYrs | 09:05 |
| eleitl | helloween? | 09:06 |
| eudoxia | the omega point can only happen in a closed universe no? | 09:06 |
| eleitl | yes | 09:06 |
| strangewarp | eudoxia: yeah. I think | 09:06 |
| eleitl | and since there are ways to prevent information from escaping in the first place, it's all a bunch of nutjobbery | 09:06 |
| eudoxia | i remember hearing tipler say that it could still happen in our universe, but that sounds like bullshit | 09:06 |
| eleitl | "You Could Be Immortal Already!" | 09:06 |
| eudoxia | the guy also thinks we have already discovered every law of physics | 09:08 |
| eudoxia | i don't know but i'm preemptively classifying it as bullshit because of his track record | 09:09 |
| eleitl | Kurzweil's? | 09:09 |
| eudoxia | tipler | 09:09 |
| eudoxia | just another nutjob trying to make physics fit his mythology | 09:10 |
| eudoxia | although we might have to give him credit for getting anders interesting into all this | 09:11 |
| kanzure | "oh how convenient, a crazy sect that doesn't involve you doing work" | 09:11 |
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| eleitl | I'd love to see how Anders' typical day looks like | 09:15 |
| eleitl | I never understood why he didn't go into neuroscience completely | 09:15 |
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| kanzure | i like to pretend that he gave up because his friends sucked | 09:16 |
| kanzure | who exactly were his peers that were helping him? i can't think of anybody. | 09:16 |
| eleitl | you have to carve out your own niche | 09:17 |
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| eleitl | somebody has to start first, so that they could help the rest | 09:18 |
| eleitl | same thing with Randal, I don't know what he's doing, but FV is pretty much dead | 09:18 |
| kanzure | FV? | 09:18 |
| eleitl | Foundation Volunteers | 09:18 |
| kanzure | randal is an odd one. his situation has been unfortunate and complicates things. | 09:18 |
| eleitl | teh sooper-sekrit uploading lair | 09:18 |
| kanzure | no i mean all the drama around his kids/wives/girlfriends/misstresses. | 09:19 |
| eleitl | oh, I missed that one | 09:19 |
| eudoxia | you mean the crazy stalker? | 09:19 |
| eleitl | transhumanists and drama, how unexpected | 09:19 |
| * eleitl is probably the only completely normal, boring transhumanist left | 09:20 | |
| kanzure | eudoxia: crazy stalker yes, but it was apparently a true story. randal posted a confession letter a while ago. | 09:20 |
| eleitl | fecesbook? | 09:20 |
| strangewarp | The couple of transhumanists I know who aren't in this channel are remarkably drama-free, but I may be the odd one out | 09:20 |
| kanzure | nah on his blog | 09:20 |
| eleitl | who are these transhumanists? | 09:20 |
| kanzure | eleitl: also, the other weird thing about randal is that he leaves code drops all over the place without taking care of them | 09:21 |
| kanzure | https://github.com/kanzure/netmorph | 09:21 |
| kanzure | i found this one on an old server and had to rescue it | 09:21 |
| kanzure | i asked him about it and he just shrugged | 09:21 |
| strangewarp | eleitl: Just some people I know from non-H+ communities who ended up having similar ideology | 09:21 |
| eudoxia | i remember some videos of netmorph | 09:22 |
| eleitl | kanzure, don't see any drama on his blog | 09:22 |
| eleitl | Link? | 09:23 |
| kanzure | can you show me his blog? i forget the url. | 09:23 |
| eudoxia | lol | 09:23 |
| eleitl | http://randalkoene.wordpress.com/ | 09:23 |
| kanzure | ok one sec | 09:23 |
| eleitl | the first time I read it | 09:23 |
| kanzure | damn it's not in the logs | 09:24 |
| eleitl | how do you query the logs? | 09:24 |
| eleitl | do you grep from the local log? | 09:24 |
| kanzure | grep randalkoene *.log | grep http | 09:24 |
| kanzure | http://gnusha.org/logs/ | 09:24 |
| eudoxia | 'wife', 'children', 'stalker', 'confession' all null | 09:25 |
| eudoxia | also 'mistress' | 09:25 |
| kanzure | anyway if you google it you get things like | 09:25 |
| kanzure | "the sophisticated rapist Dr. Randal Koene (Dr. Hitler-Bot) wanted to name his rapechild after Anders! so glad I did not bear the son of sophisticated rapist!!" | 09:25 |
| eleitl | did his stick his dick into crazy? | 09:26 |
| strangewarp | "Dr. Hitler-Bot" A+ H+ nickname | 09:26 |
| eleitl | sounds like schizophrenia | 09:27 |
| eudoxia | ^ | 09:27 |
| eudoxia | well his blog definitely doesn't have any confession letterts | 09:27 |
| eleitl | I had a Canadian girlfriend who was/is schizophrenic | 09:27 |
| kanzure | yes it was schizophrenia, except randal had some other issues to deal with too | 09:28 |
| eleitl | hope he recovers | 09:28 |
| eleitl | we need somebody in the US who's going to polish some doorknobs | 09:29 |
| eleitl | that hardware doesn't build itself | 09:29 |
| eleitl | Paul Allan can't fund it all on his own | 09:29 |
| eleitl | Allen | 09:29 |
| eleitl | half a gigabuck by now, Jesus Christ | 09:29 |
| eleitl | he definitely puts his money where his mouth is | 09:30 |
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| eleitl | http://www.forbes.com/sites/matthewherper/2012/09/18/inside-paul-allens-quest-to-reverse-engineer-the-brain/4/ | 09:31 |
| kanzure | eleitl: http://randalkoene.wordpress.com/2012/04/20/what-not-to-do-in-your-personal-life-my-two-years-as-a-liar/ | 09:32 |
| eudoxia | le 404 | 09:32 |
| eudoxia | http://web.archive.org/web/20120504194959/http://randalkoene.wordpress.com/2012/04/20/what-not-to-do-in-your-personal-life-my-two-years-as-a-liar/ | 09:32 |
| kanzure | http://web.archive.org/web/20120504194959/http://randalkoene.wordpress.com/2012/04/20/what-not-to-do-in-your-personal-life-my-two-years-as-a-liar/ | 09:32 |
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| kanzure | oh damn | 09:32 |
| kanzure | eudoxia has my back | 09:32 |
| eudoxia | i beat kanz to something | 09:32 |
| eudoxia | 23-Jan-2013 | 09:33 |
| kanzure | oh that's the edited version though | 09:33 |
| eudoxia | that's as early as the archive goes | 09:33 |
| eleitl | what a fuckup | 09:34 |
| eleitl | I'm glad he came clean, though. | 09:34 |
| kanzure | 20:36 <@kanzure> eugen, anders, and randal don't have many contemporary peers beating them into shape | 09:34 |
| kanzure | haha that was nearby the logs that had that link | 09:35 |
| eudoxia | what the christ randal man | 09:35 |
| kanzure | i remember the original version of the post. it was dark. | 09:36 |
| eudoxia | i like the summary with the bullet points though | 09:36 |
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| eleitl | fallout from that will take a long time to clear | 09:39 |
| eleitl | especially if there are financial obligations | 09:39 |
| kanzure | yes i imagine he will be preoccupied for quite a while | 09:39 |
| kanzure | yes | 09:39 |
| eleitl | are you tracking what Hayworth is doing? | 09:42 |
| kanzure | no. ever since he started using openquacklife i wrote him off as a loony. | 09:42 |
| eleitl | openquacklife? what is that? | 09:42 |
| kanzure | also, the problem with randal's brand of radical honesty is that divorce attorneys will eat it up. | 09:42 |
| kanzure | openqwaq/secondlife | 09:42 |
| eleitl | don't be a hater | 09:43 |
| eudoxia | oh that talk about the ATLUM | 09:43 |
| eleitl | his talk was useful | 09:43 |
| kanzure | he should just post regular videos | 09:43 |
| kanzure | or html things | 09:43 |
| eleitl | you can't ask a video | 09:43 |
| eleitl | the point was that you could ask him questions, like in a regular lecture | 09:43 |
| kanzure | you can do that with jabber | 09:43 |
| kanzure | also, are you familiar with 3scan? | 09:44 |
| eleitl | I mean in realtime, looking at stuff | 09:44 |
| eleitl | http://www.3scan.com/ ? | 09:44 |
| kanzure | 3scan is a company out of langton labs that recently got thiel foundation backing | 09:44 |
| kanzure | yes. it's todd huffman's company for his microtome riggup. | 09:44 |
| eleitl | ah yes, I'm aware of that | 09:45 |
| eleitl | I wonder why Ken hasn't got funding | 09:45 |
| kanzure | i was telling todd that he should hook up his image analysis stuff to netmorph | 09:45 |
| eudoxia | immortality/h+ talk | 09:45 |
| kanzure | netmorph can generate realistic morphologies and todd's software can supposedly extract networks from micrographs and scans and things | 09:45 |
| kanzure | so netmorph would be an interesting way to generate realistic images that you can test against (because netmorph can tell your testing framework what the answer is supposed to be) | 09:46 |
| eleitl | interesting idea | 09:46 |
| eleitl | oh, Netmorph is Randal's stuff | 09:46 |
| kanzure | yeah | 09:46 |
| kanzure | https://github.com/kanzure/netmorph | 09:46 |
| eudoxia | i started working on a neurite tracer as a get-into-MIT project but got bored at exporting neurons into POVray voxels | 09:47 |
| kanzure | todd/3scan claims to have some software that reconstructs 3d models of neuronal networks based on looking at the edges of cell boundaries and vesicles | 09:47 |
| eleitl | what was the last time he checked in anything? | 09:47 |
| kanzure | he never checked in anything | 09:47 |
| kanzure | i had to recover the code myself | 09:47 |
| eleitl | fucking uploaders | 09:48 |
| kanzure | indeed | 09:48 |
| eudoxia | i remember seeing netmorph in the new MURG site, but you'd already found it by then | 09:48 |
| eudoxia | carboncopies | 09:48 |
| kanzure | if they can't even be bothered to upload their source code, how are they going to remember to upload their brainz? | 09:48 |
| kanzure | yeah, i have a backup of the carboncopies/murg netmorph things: | 09:48 |
| kanzure | http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/neuro/netmorph/ | 09:48 |
| eleitl | just changing names for no reason was stupid enough | 09:48 |
| kanzure | what names | 09:48 |
| kanzure | oh MURG -> carboncopies? | 09:48 |
| kanzure | MURG was better. | 09:48 |
| eleitl | yeah, that, and just pointless change of terminology | 09:49 |
| eleitl | substate-independent minds, and all that quark | 09:49 |
| kanzure | well, separating yourself from silly beliefs in minds is okay i guess | 09:49 |
| kanzure | yeah the problem is he still uses the word 'minds' anyway :P | 09:49 |
| kanzure | whatever | 09:49 |
| eudoxia | i think whole brain emulation is a good enough term | 09:50 |
| kanzure | yes | 09:50 |
| eleitl | yeah | 09:50 |
| eudoxia | nothing about minds, no computer analogies | 09:50 |
| kanzure | eleitl: have you read these yet? http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/neuro/ultrasound/ | 09:50 |
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| eleitl | nope. I haven't read almost anything from diyhpl.us actually. | 09:51 |
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| strangewarp | omg, it's ridiculous how burnt-out I got on hardware hacking even though I'm the proverbial 10 feet from the finish line on two seperate nifty musical projects. Right. Going to power through a marathon session and finish the most important one today. Sheesh | 09:51 |
| kanzure | eleitl: well, it's an alternative to rtms/tdcs that has much finer resolution | 09:51 |
| eleitl | mm^3, something like that? | 09:53 |
| eleitl | my in-law just spent 4 hours in an OP today. spinal cord tumor. | 09:53 |
| kanzure | yes. whereas rtms/tdcs is cm^3 or worse. | 09:53 |
| eleitl | hope it's not malignant | 09:53 |
| kanzure | paralysis? | 09:53 |
| eleitl | nope, but it would be paralysis if they didn't operate | 09:54 |
| eleitl | 4 hours, it means it wasn't trivial | 09:54 |
| eleitl | human condition sucks | 09:54 |
| eleitl | and I must run home now | 09:54 |
| kanzure | night | 09:55 |
| eudoxia | bai | 09:55 |
| eleitl | not yet, but byes | 09:55 |
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| kanzure | some of the science-liberation-front people are hanging out in #aaronsw apparently | 10:15 |
| strangewarp | Blergh, betting everyone on IRC is gonna get subpoena'd over something eventually | 10:16 |
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| juri_ | holy crazyballs. just got done reading the backlog between when the ero state folks were invited here, and now. if i ever rant that crazily, please kick me from the channel. | 10:36 |
| kanzure | with pleasure | 10:36 |
| juri_ | that was a lot of traffic, and all i really learned was people work hard to feel like they're solving problems, without doing anything but what they want to do. | 10:38 |
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| strangewarp | I am guilty of this too. In my defense I was a blob of new-age mysticism and bad Nietzsche residue for the duration of my college years (arts degree), and didn't encounter transhumanism until afterwards. | 10:45 |
| strangewarp | I've decided to pursue my natural skills in a field I enjoy, instead of learning maths and engineering from the ground up... and it burns me, because I know this is a violation of the prisoner's dilemma, expecting others to build the technology that supports my ideology. | 10:50 |
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| eudoxia | it's okay strangewarp you're cool | 10:53 |
| strangewarp | Ah, thanks. With any luck I'll find a way to be cool enough to support myself in the arts. :P | 10:58 |
| kanzure | hackteria seems to do that okay | 10:59 |
| strangewarp | Hm, bio-art people. There were a couple of them making blue-chip gallery money, last I saw, with a bunch of hangers-on, yeah | 11:01 |
| kanzure | neat, a site that tracks what the great firewall blocks: | 11:01 |
| kanzure | https://en.greatfire.org/https/github.com | 11:01 |
| kanzure | "I read recently that Abelson has some ties to JSTOR and/or JSTOR management personnel." | 11:04 |
| kanzure | "Members of the MIT community can suggest questions for Abelson’s analysis via http://swartz-review.mit.edu " | 11:05 |
| strangewarp | Random question - anyone here have any opinions on Lee Smolin's cosmology work? | 11:10 |
| kanzure | it's worth reading. | 11:10 |
| kanzure | yes. | 11:11 |
| strangewarp | hmm. @_@ | 11:11 |
| kanzure | if anything, because john baez says so. but also because his edge.org content is neat to read. | 11:12 |
| kanzure | "This immaturity and negativity (not to mention ignorance) is disappointing." | 11:16 |
| strangewarp | I'll probably pick up Time Reborn, then, because it seems to contain a plausible idea I hadn't encountered before, an idea which may fill in a missing piece behind a long-term arts project I've been planning. | 11:17 |
| kanzure | amon, you should read my messages more closely. instead of writing me off as someone who hates all humans, you should consider that my messages actually have meaning. | 11:17 |
| kanzure | "Whatever Bryan & co imagine ZS to be, it obviously isn't a simple "failed community", otherwise why would they get so worked up and aggressive by the mention of it?" | 11:19 |
| kanzure | nobody said i thought zero state was a "failed community". what the fuck amon. | 11:19 |
| kanzure | this guy is insane | 11:19 |
| nmz787 | ZS? | 11:19 |
| kanzure | nmz787: just a minor flamewar. https://groups.google.com/group/DoctrineZero/browse_thread/thread/c854f1204f394495 | 11:20 |
| eudoxia | take your meds, Durham | 11:20 |
| kanzure | eudoxia: he took my comment to you about tracking failed communities on your mediawiki, and assumed that i was telling you that zero state should be on that list. | 11:21 |
| eudoxia | what a crazy assumption | 11:21 |
| eudoxia | i just might, because i'm so mean | 11:22 |
| kanzure | i wish that guy would just leave me alone | 11:24 |
| kanzure | "Despite what Bryan is clearly choosing to tell himself, we are no cult," | 11:25 |
| kanzure | actually it was eudoxia who said it was a cult | 11:25 |
| kanzure | how the hell can you misread the logs that poorly | 11:25 |
| eudoxia | yeah that was me | 11:25 |
| kanzure | this is just painful | 11:25 |
| kanzure | nobody should have to suffer someone this inconsiderate and uncareful | 11:26 |
| Guest40461 | kanzure: you're not exactly a warm cuddly teddybear, i think he feels intimidated | 11:27 |
| kanzure | i don't think it's intimidation in this case | 11:30 |
| kanzure | look at what he wrote in his first email to me: | 11:30 |
| kanzure | > Bryan - like so many Transhumanists - seems to be of the opinion that | 11:30 |
| kanzure | > either you're a technician working professionally in a scientific field, or | 11:30 |
| kanzure | > you are of no value whatsoever. | 11:30 |
| nmz787 | kanzure: is that what you think?> | 11:30 |
| kanzure | that's completely inaccurate. | 11:30 |
| kanzure | no. | 11:31 |
| xx | ethics of having children | 11:31 |
| xx | discuss. | 11:31 |
| kanzure | and i am surprised you would have to ask, nmz787 | 11:31 |
| xx | anyone | 11:32 |
| nmz787 | well i figured it would be good since they're quoting the logs | 11:32 |
| kanzure | no. ethics are banned. | 11:32 |
| xx | ... | 11:32 |
| kanzure | i mean, arbitrary discussion about ethics are banned. take that somewhere else. | 11:32 |
| xx | are you serious? | 11:32 |
| kanzure | yes | 11:32 |
| xx | lol oh okay | 11:32 |
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| nmz787 | i'm pretty sure we've talked ethics in here before with no upset | 11:32 |
| @kanzure | sometimes it gets past me | 11:33 |
| xx | that makes a lil bit more sense because transhumanism would go way off without ethical committees ... | 11:33 |
| @kanzure | what? | 11:33 |
| xx | you know, discussion of ethical transhumanism ._. | 11:33 |
| xx | otherwise eugenics would go over board... ? | 11:33 |
| nmz787 | i think it's weird how china is trying to do some eugenics, but they specifically don't call it that | 11:33 |
| @kanzure | the reason it is banned is because most of you guys suck at thinking about ethics, and i don't want to pollute this channel with that crap. | 11:34 |
| Guest40461 | kanzure: do you think haptics are just as good as finger magnets, or is there a real difference to the feel? | 11:34 |
| @kanzure | Guest40461: i don't have a high opinion of finger magnets in the first place. | 11:34 |
| xx | lol heheheh fair enough :) | 11:34 |
| Guest40461 | kanzure: i thought about getting implants, but im kinda skeptical | 11:34 |
| @kanzure | Guest40461: really, you're not missing much | 11:34 |
| @kanzure | Guest40461: it's a cool parlor trick i guess | 11:34 |
| nmz787 | some people say they really like the extra data | 11:35 |
| @kanzure | i mean, if it came down to getting a tattoo versus a magnet up your ass, i'd say go for the magnet | 11:35 |
| xx | how come post humanism isnt included in the topic? | 11:35 |
| xx | oh nevermind | 11:35 |
| * Guest40461 has his nipples tattooed | 11:35 | |
| nmz787 | i saw someone i know on facebook using a strap-on type haptic device | 11:35 |
| xx | the channel is anthropocentric | 11:35 |
| nmz787 | it was on his ankle i think or wrist, with virbrators on 4 or 8 directions | 11:36 |
| xx | post humanism anthropocentric . derp | 11:36 |
| @kanzure | xx: let me guess. you're a furry? | 11:36 |
| nmz787 | always buzzing north | 11:36 |
| xx | kanzure: no ma'am... | 11:36 |
| xx | :/ | 11:36 |
| nmz787 | huh, magnet up the ass... is that a new tek? | 11:36 |
| @kanzure | nmz787: southpaw | 11:36 |
| xx | kind of dissapointed here lol | 11:36 |
| @kanzure | nmz787: no, i was just being descriptive about places to put magnets | 11:36 |
| nmz787 | i wonder if that would work | 11:36 |
| Guest40461 | nmz787: google teledildonics | 11:36 |
| @kanzure | i'm sure someone has tried a magnet up the ass | 11:37 |
| @kanzure | for the greater good | 11:37 |
| Guest40461 | https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-b3pJD_-9EXM/Txf0bT7ow_I/AAAAAAAADag/7jcsetzshwY/s640/Photo%2520on%252010-25-11%2520at%25201.02%2520PM.jpg | 11:37 |
| xx | hmpf | 11:37 |
| nmz787 | Guest40461: where the telecontrol is the magnetic flux of the earth@ | 11:38 |
| @kanzure | nmz787: speaking of teledildonics, do you remember the emotiv headset? | 11:38 |
| @kanzure | we were reverse engineering it in here for a while, | 11:38 |
| @kanzure | then daeken took over and started emokit | 11:38 |
| @kanzure | and then when he stopped working on emokit, qdot picked it up | 11:38 |
| @kanzure | qdot runs teledildonics.org | 11:38 |
| nmz787 | kanzure: yes | 11:38 |
| @kanzure | or.. wait. | 11:38 |
| @kanzure | ah, slashdong.org | 11:39 |
| @kanzure | he also does reverse engineering of other untis | 11:39 |
| @kanzure | *units | 11:39 |
| xx | slashdong LOL | 11:39 |
| @kanzure | https://github.com/qdot | 11:39 |
| Guest40461 | heh units | 11:40 |
| @kanzure | "librealtouch".. that's a unit alright. | 11:40 |
| @kanzure | he also did libfitbit for getting data outta fitbit devices. | 11:40 |
| strangewarp | kanzure: ... furry would also be anthropocentric, actually. Ha | 11:41 |
| Guest40461 | strangewarp++ | 11:41 |
| @kanzure | strangewarp: a lot of the posthumanists were into things like "I WANT WINGS" | 11:41 |
| @kanzure | and then not bothering to read up on chicken embryology | 11:41 |
| nmz787 | ahh here it is 'leftover women' is how china is terming their older well-educated women who waren't married | 11:42 |
| nmz787 | http://www.theworld.org/2013/01/china-leftover-women/ | 11:42 |
| @kanzure | leftover. :/ | 11:42 |
| strangewarp | As a wing-wanter with a shitty degree, I empathize | 11:42 |
| Guest40461 | i wonder if its possible to create the neural pathways to control appendages we didn't naturally evolve, like wings | 11:42 |
| nmz787 | basically they're pushing all these 30s age women who are married to be shamed into marrying | 11:42 |
| @kanzure | 30s is leftover?? | 11:42 |
| nmz787 | but it's really eugenics to get the smart population to increase | 11:43 |
| Guest40461 | kanzure: 30 is old ;) | 11:43 |
| @kanzure | Guest40461: a good start to that would be regular prosthetics control | 11:43 |
| nmz787 | they 'shame' the smart single childless people into commitment which should lead to offspring of the smart ppl | 11:43 |
| @kanzure | Guest40461: 30s isn't even cougar territory | 11:43 |
| Guest40461 | lol | 11:43 |
| nmz787 | well cougars are reproductively as fresh | 11:44 |
| Guest40461 | smart people don't usually have kids..... because they're smart | 11:44 |
| nmz787 | Guest40461: right, which is where shame steps in | 11:44 |
| nmz787 | personally I think it's not half-bad | 11:44 |
| Guest40461 | i wonder what that shaming ritual looks like | 11:44 |
| nmz787 | i wish it didn't involve shame | 11:44 |
| Guest40461 | beat in public until you marry | 11:45 |
| nmz787 | Guest40461: billboards | 11:45 |
| Guest40461 | billboards? | 11:45 |
| Guest40461 | lol | 11:45 |
| nmz787 | Guest40461: and TV commercials | 11:45 |
| Guest40461 | awesome | 11:45 |
| nmz787 | 'So the state-run media keep up a barrage of messages aimed at picky educated women. Heres an excerpt from one titled, Leftover Women Do Not Deserve Our Sympathy.' | 11:45 |
| nmz787 | Pretty girls do not need a lot of education to marry into a rich and powerful family. But girls with an average or ugly appearance will find it difficult. These girls hope to further their education in order to increase their competitiveness. The tragedy is, they dont realize that as women age, they are worth less and less. So by the time they get their MA or Ph.D, they are already old like yellowed pearls. | 11:45 |
| @kanzure | who wrote that? | 11:46 |
| * Guest40461 likes his women old, like yellowed pearls | 11:46 | |
| nmz787 | 'The Chinese population planning policy used to officially have a law promoting eugenics; they actually had the word eugenics in the name, she says. Now theyve changed it, because they recognize thats kind of offensive. But thats what the family planning policy is.' | 11:46 |
| @kanzure | who says they were trying to increase their competitiveness, anyway? | 11:46 |
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| @kanzure | eleitl2: welcome back | 11:47 |
| eudoxia | wb | 11:47 |
| nmz787 | eleitl2: seen the chinese eugenics piece http://www.theworld.org/2013/01/china-leftover-women/ | 11:47 |
| eleitl2 | rehi | 11:47 |
| nmz787 | ? | 11:47 |
| eleitl2 | yes, china is still fucked up | 11:48 |
| nmz787 | well its eugenics to increase educated people's genes | 11:48 |
| nmz787 | is that such bad pressure? | 11:48 |
| @kanzure | that's a misunderstanding of biology | 11:48 |
| eleitl2 | ashkenazi took a few hundred years, so I wish them good luck | 11:48 |
| @kanzure | there's no way to "increase genes" in a person | 11:48 |
| nmz787 | better than football camp | 11:48 |
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| xx | what is with this new shitty trend where people think intelligence is in your genes and only stupid people are breeding | 11:49 |
| eleitl2 | http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ashkenazi_Jewish_intelligence | 11:49 |
| Guest40461 | its not that only stupid people are breeding | 11:49 |
| xx | and so you must save humanity and bless us with your own contribution to the gene pool | 11:49 |
| Guest40461 | stupid people just breed a lot more than smart people | 11:49 |
| @kanzure | xx: many people forget to realize that nobody understands intelligence. so they like to grasp at straws. | 11:50 |
| Guest40461 | and intelligence is in your genes because dna creates your brain | 11:50 |
| eleitl2 | after a few hundred years you might have a slight problem | 11:50 |
| xx | >.> i can see that kanzure | 11:50 |
| @kanzure | Guest40461: epigenetics yo | 11:50 |
| * Guest40461 googles | 11:50 | |
| eleitl2 | but the genetic kinetics is really slow, so you can stop worrying | 11:50 |
| @kanzure | Guest40461: nature/nurture, blah blah blah | 11:50 |
| xx | the retarded statement being spewed are reaching critical levels | 11:50 |
| nmz787 | xx: it's not just in the genes | 11:50 |
| xx | no shit | 11:50 |
| xx | sherlock | 11:51 |
| Guest40461 | kanzure: nuturing doesn't makes you smarter, it just makes you less likely to kill people | 11:51 |
| Guest40461 | nrture* | 11:51 |
| Guest40461 | fuck | 11:51 |
| xx | gtfo | 11:51 |
| @kanzure | haha | 11:51 |
| xx | Epigenetics effects fuck all your genetical predisposition | 11:51 |
| eleitl2 | I don't see how genetics will have much time to play out | 11:51 |
| nmz787 | being smart requires nature and/or nurture... | 11:52 |
| nmz787 | if you have shitty hardware in a shitty situation you won't get far | 11:52 |
| eleitl2 | we're not going to stay around the way we're doing in a few hundred years, regardless whether we go | 11:52 |
| xx | lets all have social darwinism and forcefully castrate all dumb people started with Guest40461 | 11:52 |
| xx | starting* | 11:52 |
| xx | >.> | 11:52 |
| nmz787 | good hardware in a shitty situation, you might do OK, maybe not | 11:52 |
| @kanzure | the level of insight in this conversation is basically zero | 11:53 |
| xx | new flash: genes dont make your harware | 11:53 |
| nmz787 | good hardware in a good situation, you'll be genius or a snob | 11:53 |
| nmz787 | ... | 11:53 |
| Guest40461 | xx: http://dust-warfare.net/wp-content/uploads/2012/10/come-at-me-bro-anteater.jpg | 11:53 |
| nmz787 | hardware begets hardware | 11:53 |
| eleitl2 | Bioethicist Arthur Caplan criticizes Kim's decision | 11:53 |
| nmz787 | apes aren't producing geniuses | 11:53 |
| eleitl2 | somebody put that idiot out of his misery | 11:54 |
| eleitl2 | http://www.nbcnews.com/technology/futureoftech/student-gets-dying-wish-reddit-cryonic-preservation-1B8038221 | 11:54 |
| eleitl2 | the arrogance of the bastard | 11:54 |
| nmz787 | eleitl2: is the ashkenazi story really reflective of pure pressure on intelligence? | 11:55 |
| @kanzure | what is pure pressure? | 11:55 |
| @kanzure | as opposed to pressure? | 11:55 |
| nmz787 | well they were selecting for their own | 11:55 |
| nmz787 | not for ANY genetics with HIGH high intelligence/capability | 11:55 |
| eleitl2 | how funny that the Nazis tried their blood and race thing, while holocausting those who actually made a crack at it | 11:56 |
| nmz787 | and the capability desired to improve is going to be subjective | 11:56 |
| nmz787 | that's also not really applicable | 11:56 |
| nmz787 | i practive eugenics by chosing to mate with a smart girl, not a dumb one | 11:57 |
| nmz787 | i don't nazi-fy up the place | 11:57 |
| @kanzure | that's stupid nmz787 | 11:57 |
| nmz787 | why? | 11:57 |
| @kanzure | because you know better than that | 11:57 |
| nmz787 | ? | 11:57 |
| @kanzure | you can directly manipulate your genome | 11:57 |
| @kanzure | hoping that your mate has the genes or alleles that you want is completely bogus | 11:57 |
| nmz787 | right, but I don't know what to manipulate | 11:57 |
| @kanzure | uh, you can read. i am sure you can find the things you want. | 11:58 |
| @kanzure | i have confidence that this is a solvable problem for you | 11:58 |
| eudoxia | >“Friends are gone. No one is there. I would worry you quickly become isolated and depressed.” | 11:58 |
| eudoxia | they can sign up too or you can make new friends | 11:58 |
| eudoxia | you autist | 11:58 |
| nmz787 | it's not bogus that she posseses traits i am fond of and that are working well | 11:58 |
| * Guest40461 invokes godwins law | 11:58 | |
| eleitl2 | these bioethicists seem to be all damaged people | 11:58 |
| nmz787 | she for instance doesn't have a fucked/nonexistant sleep schedule | 11:58 |
| @kanzure | Guest40461: you can't invoke godwin's law after a lag. we already moved on. | 11:58 |
| eleitl2 | Godwin's Law doesn't work the way you think it works | 11:58 |
| nmz787 | pretty sure that's genetic to some extent | 11:58 |
| * Guest40461 invokes tyler's law | 11:59 | |
| nmz787 | but i'm also selecting her wetware config for good sleep | 11:59 |
| nmz787 | since i didnt get that | 11:59 |
| Guest40461 | which says i can invoke godwins whenever i feel like it | 11:59 |
| @kanzure | nmz787: well, just remember that genetics isn't a mystery and that you can actually investigate these things. instead of just hoping genes are "good" or "bad" or leaving it to chance. | 11:59 |
| eleitl2 | gene kinetics in populations has been treated extensively in 1960s and 1970s | 12:00 |
| nmz787 | sure, but with my $ and know-how, I currently can't engineer my offspring with direct manipulation | 12:00 |
| @kanzure | how do you figure about the know how part? | 12:00 |
| @kanzure | and as for money, have you figured how much it would cost to do.. whatever it is you are hoping to do? | 12:01 |
| nmz787 | but in the time i can learn to do that, I can also raise 2 or 3 'experiments' with old sex | 12:01 |
| nmz787 | yeah we've talked a lot about nuclear transfer on diybio and the equip needed | 12:01 |
| @kanzure | eudoxia: who were you quoting? | 12:01 |
| eudoxia | the article eugen linked to | 12:02 |
| eleitl2 | that bioethicist failure of a human | 12:02 |
| nmz787 | plus there's the whole precision editing thing that is still be worked out | 12:02 |
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| @kanzure | nmz787: true, editing is still a pain | 12:02 |
| eleitl2 | even if you can edit perfectly, you must know what you splice in | 12:02 |
| nmz787 | right | 12:02 |
| eleitl2 | it's not exactly all labeled, and parametrized in there | 12:02 |
| @kanzure | nobody said it was | 12:03 |
| eleitl2 | no point in engineering humans | 12:03 |
| eleitl2 | too little, too slow | 12:03 |
| @kanzure | i hear that patri friedman had some genetics work done on his kiddo before they put the embryo in a surrogate | 12:03 |
| eleitl2 | if the future is collapse, you can't even engineer anymore | 12:03 |
| nmz787 | i've also heard that mixing with ethnicities very distant from yours is best-of-both worlds in terms of VDJ recombination regions | 12:03 |
| @kanzure | i think surrogate pregnancies are one of the greatest inventions ever | 12:04 |
| eleitl2 | mutts = hybrid vigor | 12:04 |
| @kanzure | i also suspect that someone is paying for surrogate pregnancies from donor eggs without having a mate | 12:04 |
| eleitl2 | amara graps' kid is from a donor egg | 12:04 |
| eleitl2 | she's in latvia now | 12:05 |
| nmz787 | kanzure i need to make a quick frontend for matplotlib | 12:05 |
| @kanzure | nmz787: i'm pretty sure one exists. you should go check. | 12:05 |
| nmz787 | i want to have a open file dialog | 12:05 |
| nmz787 | this is for the openSpectrometer software | 12:06 |
| @kanzure | have you picked a python/gui framework yet? like qt/wxwidgets/gtk? | 12:06 |
| nmz787 | i got the data browser from an example | 12:06 |
| eleitl2 | somebody should build a really cheap NMR spectrometer, and a GC/MS to boot | 12:06 |
| nmz787 | well matplotlib or some tool it includes uses qt | 12:06 |
| eleitl2 | that would rock quite hard | 12:06 |
| nmz787 | and portablepython inclues all that and some more libs | 12:06 |
| @kanzure | qt is a fine choice, there's a qt gui design tool that you should know about | 12:07 |
| nmz787 | glade? | 12:07 |
| nmz787 | or is that different | 12:07 |
| @kanzure | uh it's related | 12:07 |
| @kanzure | i forget the name of the qt-design tool. damn. | 12:07 |
| eudoxia | glade is for gtk | 12:07 |
| @kanzure | ah fuck | 12:07 |
| eudoxia | kanzure: qt designer | 12:07 |
| xx | wait so cryonics preservation aint legit? | 12:07 |
| nmz787 | should i just have buttons, or a file drop down menu too? | 12:07 |
| @kanzure | xx: nobody has successfully revived an animal from suspension | 12:08 |
| @kanzure | nmz787: i think you should have a command line interface. never treat your users as stupid. | 12:08 |
| eudoxia | although Darwin came pretty close with the Enkidu dog | 12:08 |
| eudoxia | well, moderately | 12:08 |
| @kanzure | your goal is to be a billion times better than all the proprietary shit out there | 12:08 |
| @kanzure | and they all have shitty guis | 12:08 |
| @kanzure | so your goal should be to avoid that mistake | 12:08 |
| eleitl2 | I've seen the 14 min dog, it was completely normal | 12:08 |
| @kanzure | eleitl2: you know about nmz787's spectrometer project? | 12:09 |
| eleitl2 | it's surprising how many dogs you have to kill before you have a working process | 12:09 |
| eleitl2 | no, kanzure. I'm new here. | 12:09 |
| @kanzure | http://openspectrometer.com/ | 12:09 |
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| eleitl2 | it's grating based? | 12:10 |
| nmz787 | yeah | 12:10 |
| @kanzure | nmz787: one way to write the software would be as a local server. then the gui would talk to the server, and there could be command line tools that talk to the server too. the ui can be interchangeable. | 12:10 |
| nmz787 | concave aberration corrected | 12:10 |
| @kanzure | nmz787: i'd be happy to write this for you | 12:11 |
| eleitl2 | there's the Michelson interferometer route, ever considered that? | 12:11 |
| nmz787 | kanzure: well i considered some javascript plotting libs, and matplotlib looks pretty darn nice | 12:11 |
| @kanzure | 'cause it's an important component and it should work, etc. | 12:11 |
| nmz787 | but its a litte laggy | 12:11 |
| eleitl2 | Fourier transform, but I think it's only for IR | 12:11 |
| @kanzure | well, separation of concerns, right? there should be a fully functional way to get information in/out. then the different front-ends can play with that data. | 12:12 |
| nmz787 | eleitl2: interferometers have been considered for metrology/feedback in positioning systems | 12:12 |
| nmz787 | fourier spectroscopy doesn't work (well?) in VIS | 12:12 |
| eleitl2 | http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fourier_transform_spectroscopy <-- this thing | 12:12 |
| nmz787 | something about the frequencies being so much higher than IR | 12:13 |
| eleitl2 | yeah, but you'll be mostly interested in IR anyway | 12:13 |
| eleitl2 | UV and IR, VIS is boring | 12:13 |
| nmz787 | kanzure: sure, yeah like now I just have the cleaned up files from the terminal of ONE spectrometer | 12:13 |
| @kanzure | from your spectrometer or something else? | 12:13 |
| nmz787 | kanzure: i also have 1 unclean terminal dump, but it has some \r or \n added during the copy-paste i think | 12:14 |
| @kanzure | dos2unix can clean up \r and \n shit | 12:14 |
| nmz787 | eleitl2: nah, UV and VIS is very important in biochem | 12:14 |
| eleitl2 | I hope somebody does for NMR what you're doing | 12:14 |
| @kanzure | dos2unix crap.dat | 12:14 |
| nmz787 | UV esp for DNA quantification | 12:14 |
| nmz787 | VIS for fluorescence | 12:14 |
| eleitl2 | different application, I'm more interested in identifying small molecules by spectra | 12:15 |
| @kanzure | dna is small-ish :P | 12:15 |
| eleitl2 | DNA you mostly look at a gel, that's about it | 12:15 |
| @kanzure | gels are evil though | 12:15 |
| nmz787 | lots of fluorophores in the VIS that are easy to buy kits for labelling various cellular species | 12:15 |
| nmz787 | eleitl2: nah i'm doind micro and nano channels | 12:15 |
| nmz787 | going | 12:15 |
| eleitl2 | you need a fluorescence microscope for that | 12:15 |
| nmz787 | doing*** | 12:15 |
| eleitl2 | what do you want to resolve in a small volume? | 12:16 |
| eleitl2 | whether a DNA aliquot is coming through? | 12:16 |
| nmz787 | resolve? | 12:16 |
| eleitl2 | scan | 12:16 |
| eleitl2 | look for | 12:16 |
| nmz787 | i'm building a DNA synthesizer | 12:16 |
| eleitl2 | ok, so you want to clean and separate out a fraction? | 12:16 |
| nmz787 | so I will be looking at single molecules with light or electric potential | 12:17 |
| nmz787 | that's part of the process | 12:17 |
| eleitl2 | nanopore based? | 12:17 |
| nmz787 | i'm thinking nanochannel this week | 12:17 |
| eleitl2 | same thing | 12:18 |
| nmz787 | back the growing molecule into the channel, away from the active chemistry | 12:18 |
| nmz787 | sense potential along the axis | 12:18 |
| eleitl2 | numerically controlled enzymes, that's what this planet needs | 12:18 |
| @kanzure | indeed | 12:18 |
| nmz787 | yeah, that's the other topic at the top of my interests | 12:19 |
| eudoxia | the assembler is basically just a positionally-controlled enzyme | 12:19 |
| eleitl2 | well, it's a bit more powerful than that | 12:19 |
| eleitl2 | but you can shit out GATTACA at will, that would be just great | 12:19 |
| @kanzure | eleitl2: regarding dna synthesizers, | 12:20 |
| @kanzure | http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/nucleic/fbi-diybio-dna-v1.pdf | 12:20 |
| nmz787 | i just applied to PhD | 12:20 |
| @kanzure | http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/nucleic/su-slides.pdf | 12:20 |
| eleitl2 | there's a way to do hybrid things, like build an enzyme which can synthesize a cumulene strand continuously | 12:20 |
| nmz787 | and will be studying remote control of molecules, or DNA synthesis | 12:20 |
| eleitl2 | cool, nmz787 | 12:20 |
| @kanzure | http://diyhpl.us/laser_etcher/laser_etcher/ | 12:20 |
| @kanzure | we were going to build that for the laser cutting | 12:20 |
| @kanzure | but then nmz787 moved and we haven't started up again | 12:20 |
| nmz787 | remote control might actually sound more boring, like working on dyes or something | 12:21 |
| eleitl2 | do you have videos of your fab setup? you're still in Austin, right? | 12:21 |
| nmz787 | but it would in principal be the same underlying concept | 12:21 |
| @kanzure | yes i am in austin, but the setup is weaksauce and uninteresting | 12:21 |
| @kanzure | i am in software mode | 12:21 |
| eleitl2 | hm | 12:21 |
| @kanzure | currently i am trying to live up to http://www.omgwallhack.org/home/jrayhawk/img/hovel/20120512_008.jpg | 12:22 |
| @kanzure | rather than fabrication facilities. | 12:22 |
| eleitl2 | a problem I see with current science is that the rig are high-price and completely magic | 12:22 |
| nmz787 | kanzure: acid.txt http://pastebin.com/G057DfXH | 12:22 |
| eudoxia | haha | 12:22 |
| @kanzure | eleitl2: yes, their prices are ridiculous | 12:22 |
| eleitl2 | the advantage is that they're dumping the old gear, so that the hobbyists can get it cheaply | 12:22 |
| nmz787 | kanzure: that is the cleaned version i made... it's not a bad format to start, but i'm open to making it better | 12:22 |
| eudoxia | that picture has made it to every corner of the internet | 12:22 |
| @kanzure | eleitl2: the problem with old gear is that it usually doesn't work | 12:23 |
| eleitl2 | heh | 12:23 |
| nmz787 | kanzure: base_original.txt http://pastebin.com/ngqB7Sr8 | 12:23 |
| eleitl2 | we've got a bear of a heart-lung machine on our hands | 12:23 |
| @kanzure | the los angeles group spent >6 months trying to fix a dna sequencer | 12:23 |
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| @kanzure | at some point it's better to just make someting open source | 12:24 |
| @kanzure | *something | 12:24 |
| @kanzure | old lab equipment is usually undocumented and has to be reverse engineered too | 12:24 |
| nmz787 | eleitl2: yes but it's magic! | 12:24 |
| eleitl2 | on the long run, open systems will beat closed systems. but I'm dead and buried by the time. | 12:24 |
| strangewarp | [13:22] <@kanzure> currently i am trying to live up to http://www.omgwallhack.org/home/jrayhawk/img/hovel/20120512_008.jpg | 12:24 |
| strangewarp | That is an amazingly inspirational image | 12:24 |
| @kanzure | strangewarp: that's jrayhawk's setup. | 12:24 |
| strangewarp | I love it. | 12:25 |
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| eleitl2 | my dayjob office looks way worse | 12:25 |
| nmz787 | strangewarp: i saw it in person to verify it's reality | 12:25 |
| eleitl2 | the boss is bringing in visitors to look at it | 12:25 |
| strangewarp | My music setup isn't as impressive, but it utilizes more K'nex, so I'm living the dream in my own way | 12:25 |
| nmz787 | eleitl2: I toured FEI last week | 12:25 |
| eleitl2 | FEI? | 12:25 |
| nmz787 | eleitl2: they make eScopes that can see 0.5 angstrom | 12:25 |
| @kanzure | they sell fancypants electron microscopes | 12:26 |
| eleitl2 | transmission? | 12:26 |
| nmz787 | eleitl2: also focused ion beam (FIB) with SEM in same chamber | 12:26 |
| nmz787 | yeah the 50 picometer is | 12:26 |
| eleitl2 | that is nice, ion beam milling of tissue blocks is the dickens | 12:26 |
| eleitl2 | I think that the Atlum thing is a dead end | 12:26 |
| eudoxia | O: | 12:27 |
| @kanzure | why's that? | 12:27 |
| nmz787 | the FEI non-dualbeam FIBs are 'older' and prob on secondhand market | 12:27 |
| eleitl2 | you have to remove the surface, I thought of fs laser ablation, but ion beam milling looks easier | 12:27 |
| nmz787 | but they're so complex, you really need to be an expert | 12:27 |
| @kanzure | eleitl2: 3scan just uses a knife. they image while they cut so that they don't lose information. | 12:27 |
| eleitl2 | I think you need to sample regions to submicron resolution | 12:27 |
| nmz787 | ion beams are kinda big for cell slicing though | 12:27 |
| eudoxia | eleitl2: is this about how microtomes cause damage ~2 microns into the tissue? | 12:27 |
| nmz787 | but yeah they mentioned having a cryo sectioning system | 12:28 |
| eudoxia | and you need to ablate that damaged volume? | 12:28 |
| eleitl2 | you don't slice, you vitrifify, and cryosection | 12:28 |
| eleitl2 | then you image the mm^3 blocks, or so | 12:28 |
| eleitl2 | vitrify, even. | 12:28 |
| eleitl2 | your problem is that vitrification of native tissue is low contrast in EM | 12:28 |
| eleitl2 | so you probably have to use a different imaging modality, probably a proximal probe | 12:29 |
| eleitl2 | unless this fixation/embedding thing actually gets validated, which doesn't look likely | 12:29 |
| eleitl2 | God, I wish I could just kill pigs or dogs with no questions asked | 12:29 |
| nmz787 | i think they used ethane or ethene to vitrify | 12:29 |
| nmz787 | something about it not doing something to the water | 12:30 |
| eleitl2 | you perfuse, and then vitrify at leisure | 12:30 |
| eleitl2 | cooling rates can be low enough with modern stuff | 12:30 |
| nmz787 | this was at FEI though | 12:30 |
| eleitl2 | if you can load the tissue, you're golden | 12:30 |
| eleitl2 | if you don't kill the tissue at that, you're platinum | 12:30 |
| nmz787 | so I dunno if they're working with cells or tissue | 12:30 |
| eleitl2 | I'm interested in ~l volumes. | 12:30 |
| eleitl2 | Fahy is working in rabbit kidney volumes, which are tiny | 12:31 |
| eleitl2 | and microsurgery from hell | 12:31 |
| eleitl2 | that's one hell of a handicap | 12:31 |
| eleitl2 | it seems you have to go to a developing world location, which is unregulated | 12:31 |
| nmz787 | 1 what | 12:31 |
| eleitl2 | you can do shit in China which will get you arrested here | 12:32 |
| nmz787 | or is that an l | 12:32 |
| @kanzure | liter | 12:32 |
| eleitl2 | liter, as in about a liter | 12:32 |
| @kanzure | eleitl2 is all metric and likes to use dimensions | 12:32 |
| @kanzure | because dimensions are useful, yo | 12:32 |
| eleitl2 | are bitchen | 12:32 |
| nmz787 | liter is a dimension? | 12:32 |
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| eleitl2 | youuuunits | 12:32 |
| nmz787 | mm3 | 12:32 |
| eleitl2 | whole world is metric, US is the special kid here | 12:33 |
| eleitl2 | it doesn't give you that much advantage at a high end, but it is sure easy for us pedestrians | 12:33 |
| eleitl2 | metric is very easy for highschool kids | 12:34 |
| eleitl2 | how would you obtain pigs? | 12:35 |
| nmz787 | farmer? | 12:35 |
| nmz787 | craigslist | 12:35 |
| eleitl2 | they scramble the brains, which is not that bad, but then they bleed them out | 12:35 |
| nmz787 | yeah imperial is weird | 12:35 |
| eleitl2 | this is Bavaria | 12:35 |
| eleitl2 | bleeding them out is right out | 12:35 |
| nmz787 | though i know how to estimate driving in miles much better than km | 12:35 |
| nmz787 | i do everything else in metric, pretty much | 12:36 |
| eleitl2 | mpg is just the worst metric ever | 12:36 |
| eleitl2 | is it even legal to have your animals slaughtered by a butcher? | 12:36 |
| nmz787 | kanzure: so how do i add command line arg parsing | 12:36 |
| eleitl2 | the law is funny that way | 12:36 |
| @kanzure | nmz787: argparse | 12:37 |
| @kanzure | http://docs.python.org/2/howto/argparse.html | 12:37 |
| eleitl2 | if you want to grill it, it's a-ok. but experimentes. no way in hell. | 12:37 |
| @kanzure | nmz787: but let's take a few moments to think about how the software should theoretically work? | 12:37 |
| eleitl2 | local animal activists shut down dog experiments | 12:37 |
| @kanzure | how does it currently work? i mean where does it get data from. | 12:37 |
| eleitl2 | it's all down to mice and rats these days | 12:37 |
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| nmz787 | well right now i am working on ph calculation so i was thinking either using a config file with sections for acid base and bufer data... or having cmdline args like --ph acid1.txt acid2.txt acid3.txt base1 base2 base3 buffer1 buffer2 buffer3 | 12:38 |
| eleitl2 | I tried to obtain euthanized dog cadavers from a friend vet, but most owners have them cremated | 12:38 |
| @kanzure | nmz787: this is for the spectrometer right? | 12:38 |
| @kanzure | eleitl2: transcranial ultrasound of mouse motor cortex http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RGEP6iWLsvQ | 12:38 |
| nmz787 | yes | 12:38 |
| @kanzure | nmz787: ok where does acid1.txt come from? | 12:39 |
| eleitl2 | so if you want to obtain a cadaver, with full written consent of an owner, you'd be luckier to go shoot a unicorn | 12:39 |
| nmz787 | but ph is a simple use case | 12:39 |
| nmz787 | those two pastebin lins | 12:39 |
| nmz787 | links | 12:39 |
| @kanzure | nmz787: yeah but how did you get those files? | 12:39 |
| nmz787 | i pasted them from windows terminal | 12:39 |
| nmz787 | they came from the spectrometer via USB 2 serial | 12:39 |
| eleitl2 | how much energy are they dumping into the mouse? | 12:39 |
| nmz787 | one is what the terminal looked like, the other is one i cleaned up (they are different data) | 12:40 |
| @kanzure | well i know it's <1 MHz so uh.. probably less than J/mm^2 | 12:40 |
| @kanzure | nmz787: ok. so in a perfect world i don't think having to manually paste that makes any sense? | 12:40 |
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| eleitl2 | does it fry them on the middle run? | 12:40 |
| @kanzure | eleitl2: nope i don't think they did any frying. | 12:40 |
| nmz787 | kanzure: i thought of having this as a config file for the experiment http://pastebin.com/7gyFweH3 | 12:41 |
| nmz787 | kanzure: right, but parsing the spectrometer output is one thing, aside from doing work on the data | 12:41 |
| @kanzure | so you would do something like ./run-spectrometer-data-listening-server-thing --config=config.that.file.txt ? | 12:41 |
| nmz787 | since there are lots of spectrometers out there, the import should be disconnected | 12:42 |
| @kanzure | ok so you want to make a generic framework for all sorts of lousy spectrometers | 12:42 |
| @kanzure | a sensible thing to do | 12:42 |
| nmz787 | so that config file is for the ph experiment | 12:42 |
| nmz787 | those files would have to be designated with the right file name at the time of the experiment | 12:42 |
| nmz787 | i.e. acid base buffer.txt | 12:43 |
| eleitl2 | what we need is more medical hobbyists. it's pretty much a white spot on the map. | 12:43 |
| @kanzure | is this for analysis or collection? | 12:43 |
| nmz787 | so the unclean pastebin is what the parser needs to be based on, for collection | 12:43 |
| nmz787 | the clean data format doesn't include all the info that spectrometer spit out | 12:44 |
| nmz787 | because i was lazy | 12:44 |
| @kanzure | ok when i think of collection, i think of "hey, you don't need to install shitty windows software anymore to run your spectrometer. you can just run nmz787's thing which has a plugin for your shit spectrometer hardware. it handles everything for you, and then you can play with the data in python or run a pre-existing function on it." | 12:44 |
| nmz787 | but at least that data in the clean file, is required to do a ph experiment | 12:44 |
| nmz787 | kanzure: sure that would be great, it would probably ask you wheter you wanted a file per reading, or multiple readings in a file | 12:45 |
| nmz787 | then ask for the file name | 12:46 |
| nmz787 | and continue asking for file names, if you want that | 12:46 |
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| nmz787 | (ask for filename, wait for reading to finish, save file, next step) | 12:46 |
| nmz787 | if you wanted multi-spectra files, then a button saying 'stop' would just be displayed | 12:47 |
| @kanzure | hmm i'd like to avoid making up a custom file format | 12:47 |
| nmz787 | i dunno if there's anything out there though | 12:48 |
| @kanzure | last time i used a nanodrop, the data could be exported to csv, but the software had its own terrible file format too :( | 12:48 |
| nmz787 | hmm | 12:48 |
| nmz787 | well, if you make all the variables labelled nicely | 12:48 |
| nmz787 | someone should be able to write whatever save format they want | 12:48 |
| nmz787 | after the fact by modding the code | 12:49 |
| @kanzure | well i was thinking this would be a python library that we could distribute by http://pypi.python.org/ (the python package index) | 12:49 |
| @kanzure | people would install it via the normal "pip install spectrometerwhatever" or "sudo apt-get install python-spectrometer" | 12:49 |
| @kanzure | then in ipython they could do "experiment = spectrometer.open('my_experiment.csv')" | 12:50 |
| @kanzure | (or something to that effect) | 12:50 |
| nmz787 | but that doesnt solve needing a file format | 12:50 |
| @kanzure | definitely | 12:50 |
| nmz787 | then for processing | 12:50 |
| @kanzure | then for processing you would have plugins that can handle that generic 'experiment' object | 12:51 |
| @kanzure | so one would calculate ph | 12:51 |
| @kanzure | another would do dna quantification | 12:51 |
| nmz787 | i need to load all the spectra, find the max, and show it to the user to make sure it's the right peak (if there are multiple peaks) | 12:51 |
| @kanzure | finding a peak is super easy in python if you have a list of numbers (just do max(mylist)) | 12:51 |
| nmz787 | then once all the peaks are identified, it's just some math to spit out the ph of the buffer | 12:51 |
| @kanzure | we should email diybio and ask for samples of spectrometer spectra files | 12:53 |
| @kanzure | plus the name of the machine that took the readings | 12:53 |
| eleitl2 | how much resolution are you trying to aim for? | 12:54 |
| @kanzure | then we will have a better idea of which data formats need to be supported | 12:54 |
| eleitl2 | but your resolution is determined by your hardware, mostly optics | 12:54 |
| * brownies scrolls | 12:54 | |
| nmz787 | eleitl2: are you talking about the openSpectrometer? | 12:55 |
| eleitl2 | yes | 12:55 |
| nmz787 | I haven't calculated it but around 600nm on 3648 pixels | 12:56 |
| nmz787 | this is the grating http://nathanmccorkle.com/pdf/CHGF-001.pdf | 12:56 |
| eleitl2 | commercial? source? | 12:56 |
| nmz787 | *600nm range over X pixels* | 12:56 |
| brownies | how about... a standard JSON format describing an experiment | 12:56 |
| nmz787 | eleitl2: alibaba | 12:56 |
| @kanzure | most spectrometers dump out data in csv or a list of numbers | 12:57 |
| @kanzure | it's not even json | 12:57 |
| @kanzure | json would make sense though | 12:57 |
| eleitl2 | I remember a similiar project on Scientific American experiment of the month | 12:57 |
| nmz787 | eleitl2: or Richardson in the U.S. for 4-5X price | 12:57 |
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| eleitl2 | http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Re-Animator <-- how come I've never seen this? | 13:01 |
| brownies | CSV is okay. JSON is preferable. if you use XML i will drive to Oregon and smack you upside the head. | 13:04 |
| Guest40461 | its a "cult" film | 13:04 |
| brownies | this thing you put on pastebin is not going to cut it though. it's too magical... too many things that have to be just right with line breaks and so on. | 13:04 |
| Guest40461 | ;) | 13:04 |
| nmz787 | brownies: which? | 13:05 |
| nmz787 | brownies: the 9 line one? | 13:05 |
| nmz787 | brownies: or the one with $ signs and such | 13:06 |
| brownies | yeah. | 13:06 |
| nmz787 | i was just gonna grab the line after matching with the section title | 13:07 |
| @kanzure | nooo | 13:07 |
| @kanzure | that's not how you parse config files. | 13:07 |
| nmz787 | brownies: got a better idea? | 13:07 |
| nmz787 | :/ | 13:07 |
| @kanzure | there's entire libraries dedicated to parsing config files already | 13:07 |
| nmz787 | oh? | 13:07 |
| nmz787 | quick | 13:07 |
| nmz787 | show me | 13:07 |
| nmz787 | cause i'm parsing it on my own now | 13:07 |
| @kanzure | http://pypi.python.org/pypi?%3Aaction=search&term=config+files&submit=search | 13:07 |
| @kanzure | sudo pip install anyconfig | 13:08 |
| nmz787 | i don't think i have pip | 13:08 |
| @kanzure | configparser, configobj, configo | 13:08 |
| @kanzure | sudo apt-get install python-setuptools | 13:08 |
| @kanzure | sudo easy_install pip | 13:08 |
| nmz787 | isn't there anything in this list of libs http://portablepython.com/wiki/PortablePython2.7.3.2 | 13:08 |
| @kanzure | you can include other python modules when distributing your code | 13:09 |
| nmz787 | you dont just recommend one of them? | 13:09 |
| @kanzure | ah neat there's one that's in the default standard library for python | 13:10 |
| @kanzure | http://docs.python.org/library/configparser.html | 13:10 |
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| eleitl2 | Witnesses on the ground and in the airplane stated that they saw the mechanic on the outboard side of the engine stand up, step into the inlet hazard zone, and become ingested into the intake of the engine. This occurred about 90 seconds into the 70-percent-power engine run. The mechanic was not wearing any type of safety equipment or lanyard to prevent the ingestion. Upon sensing a buffet, the captain immediately retarded the power lever back to the | 13:13 |
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| @kanzure | that's metal. | 13:23 |
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| nmz787 | kanzure: brownies how bout this for a data file http://pastebin.com/7Er70tL6 | 13:37 |
| @kanzure | i would prefer json | 13:38 |
| nmz787 | this is using that configparser | 13:38 |
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| @kanzure | max is 250nm in that file? | 13:38 |
| @kanzure | or 0.25 nm? | 13:38 |
| nmz787 | looks like lambda max is in mid or low 400s nm | 13:39 |
| nmz787 | 0.25 is the ADC value | 13:39 |
| @kanzure | it would be nice to be more explicit about which units are used where. i suppose you could just say all spectrometers will report in nm anyway. | 13:39 |
| @kanzure | ah. | 13:40 |
| nmz787 | it's not nm though | 13:40 |
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| @kanzure | btw if you're not familiar with json here's what it tends to look like: http://httpbin.org/get | 13:40 |
| nmz787 | in this case it seems that it is 0 to 1 scale | 13:40 |
| @kanzure | then you can do json.loads(content) to parse it or json.dumps(objcet) | 13:40 |
| @kanzure | objcet={"key": "value"} in python | 13:40 |
| nmz787 | what are the {} | 13:41 |
| nmz787 | like args is empty {} | 13:41 |
| @kanzure | do you know about lists in python? [] | 13:41 |
| @kanzure | in python, {} are dictionaries (dict) | 13:41 |
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| @kanzure | mydict = {"key": "value"}; mydict["key2"] = "value2"]; mydict.keys() is ["key", "key2"], mydict.values() is ["value", "value2"], etc.. | 13:42 |
| brownies | yeah listen to kanzure | 13:43 |
| brownies | you have to be explicit about all this stuff like units, expected fields, etc, if you want to make something reusable | 13:44 |
| nmz787 | so you can have lists in lists and dicts in dicts in json? | 13:47 |
| @kanzure | yes. you can also have strings and integers in json. | 13:47 |
| nmz787 | do i need to put numbers in quotes? | 13:49 |
| nmz787 | ints vs decimals different? | 13:49 |
| @kanzure | try it out | 13:49 |
| @kanzure | you shouldn't have to quote integers | 13:49 |
| nmz787 | should I? | 13:49 |
| nmz787 | i mean, ethically | 13:50 |
| @kanzure | if you don't quote them, they will be interpreted by json parsers as integers. which i think is what you want. | 13:50 |
| nmz787 | so i can do { "datapoints": [1,2,3,4,5]} | 13:50 |
| @kanzure | yes | 13:51 |
| nmz787 | { "datapoints": [1.1,2.2,3.3,4.4,5.5]} | 13:51 |
| nmz787 | or do they need to be in quotes? | 13:51 |
| nmz787 | since theyre not whole | 13:51 |
| @kanzure | try it out: import json; json.loads("[1.1, 1.2]") | 13:51 |
| nmz787 | ok | 13:52 |
| nmz787 | works | 13:52 |
| nmz787 | but i can't be sure it's a float or double, can I? | 13:52 |
| nmz787 | or will it choose a double if it needs that precision on the fly? | 13:53 |
| nmz787 | to avoid data loss | 13:53 |
| @kanzure | not sure. try it out again. scipy has some things for dealing with large numbers though if you need that. | 13:53 |
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| @kanzure | aww | 13:56 |
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| @kanzure | ha ha https://github.com/gomachan/dotfiles/tree/master/.ssh | 14:08 |
| @kanzure | heh https://github.com/search?q=aws+secret&type=Code&ref=searchresults | 14:08 |
| chris_99 | heh thankfully most of the aws ones seem blank | 14:11 |
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| Guest40461 | i didn't learn until recently that null is a json data type | 14:19 |
| Guest40461 | makes sense though | 14:19 |
| @kanzure | json is the wrong choice for things that require a schema.. but python with units is already funky in the first place. | 14:19 |
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| @kanzure | sympy has a module that provides physical units | 14:19 |
| Guest40461 | i like json for serialization of hashmaps and xml for tree structures | 14:20 |
| @kanzure | that seems somewhat arbitrary. | 14:20 |
| * Guest40461 agrees | 14:21 | |
| Guest40461 | :) | 14:21 |
| brownies | you can require your JSON to conform to a spec/schema, but it does have the luxurious feature of letting you add "columns" to your schema without breaking any parsers | 14:21 |
| @kanzure | within a few moments of turning on mitmproxy on my residential connection, i get hundreds of requests.. | 14:26 |
| @kanzure | it seems to be something using realmedia.com over http | 14:26 |
| @kanzure | it seems more like a system designed to track which proxies are available | 14:26 |
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| @kanzure | paperbot: http://pubs.acs.org/doi/abs/10.1021/ed400027r | 15:20 |
| paperbot | error: HTTP 500 http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/paperbot/The%20Real%20Costs%20of%20Publishing%20the%20.pdf | 15:20 |
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| panax | http://gizmodo.com/5978304/theres-a-math-formula-that-tells-us-how-long-everything-will-live?utm_source=jalopnik.com&utm_medium=recirculation&utm_campaign=recirculation | 16:16 |
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| nmz787 | kanzure: is there anything like numpy for javascript? | 16:38 |
| nmz787 | i can't figure out how to add a simple OK or Next button to matplotlib | 16:38 |
| @kanzure | well you would probably write a wrapper around matplotlib in qt | 16:39 |
| @kanzure | http://eli.thegreenplace.net/2008/08/01/matplotlib-with-wxpython-guis/ | 16:39 |
| @kanzure | http://eli.thegreenplace.net/2009/01/20/matplotlib-with-pyqt-guis/ | 16:39 |
| nmz787 | yeah | 16:39 |
| nmz787 | i saw that | 16:39 |
| nmz787 | its not really very nice looking | 16:40 |
| @kanzure | but no there's nothing like numpy for javascript really.. | 16:40 |
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| @kanzure | what developers usually do is they pass data from javascript to the server where numpy is running, then the numpy magic happens, then the javascript polls an endpoint and waits for a result. | 16:41 |
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| @kanzure | http://www.bbc.com/future/story/20130123-hacking-genes-in-humble-settings?selectorSection=science-environment | 16:53 |
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| balrog | anyone here have access to http://www.chipdocs.com/pndecoder/datasheets/AMIS/S35213.html ? | 17:29 |
| balrog | (paywalls suck) | 17:29 |
| @kanzure | paperbot: http://www.chipdocs.com/pndecoder/datasheets/AMIS/S35213.html | 17:31 |
| paperbot | no translator available, raw dump: http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/paperbot/ea36a218ee1d370ddb6a979b39a15589.txt | 17:31 |
| @kanzure | paperbot: http://www.chipdocs.com/pnsearch/download.html?okwd=S35213&partid=1748829 | 17:31 |
| paperbot | no translator available, raw dump: http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/paperbot/357be250dff67866bfb7d18e52484a5f.txt | 17:31 |
| @kanzure | nope. | 17:32 |
| balrog | never mind... | 17:37 |
| balrog | they lifted it from a databook that's on bitsavers | 17:37 |
| balrog | :< | 17:37 |
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| panax | http://www.edge.org/conversation/geoffrey-west | 17:54 |
| yashgaroth | paperbot: http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S1350946200000021 | 17:56 |
| paperbot | no translator available, raw dump: http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/paperbot/Molecular%20evolution%20of%20vertebrate%20visual%20pigments.txt | 17:56 |
| yashgaroth | http://www.sciencedirect.com/science?_ob=ShoppingCartURL&_method=add&_eid=1-s2.0-S1350946200000021&originContentFamily=serial&_origin=article&_acct=C000228598&_version=1&_userid=10&_ts=1358992524&md5=cea1ff28fca58f4ce4f3ace46b4da3a1 | 17:57 |
| @kanzure | you have to tell paperbot explicitly for things that might fail | 17:57 |
| yashgaroth | uh | 17:57 |
| @kanzure | because otherwise paperbot would say lots of error messages every time a link might fail | 17:57 |
| @kanzure | paperbot: http://www.sciencedirect.com/science?_ob=ShoppingCartURL&_method=add&_eid=1-s2.0-S1350946200000021&originContentFamily=serial&_origin=article&_acct=C000228598&_version=1&_userid=10&_ts=1358992524&md5=cea1ff28fca58f4ce4f3ace46b4da3a1 | 17:57 |
| paperbot | IndexError: list index out of range (file "/srv/ikiwiki/paperbot/modules/papers.py", line 176, in download_url) | 17:58 |
| @kanzure | oh interesting | 17:58 |
| gnusha | https://secure.diyhpl.us/cgit/paperbot/commit/?id=f7d7eaa6 Bryan Bishop: fail less catastrophically for a weird sciencedirect url | 18:00 |
| gnusha | paperbot: reload papers | 18:00 |
| paperbot | gnusha: <module 'papers' from '/srv/ikiwiki/paperbot/modules/papers.py'> (version: 2013-01-24 02:00:37) | 18:00 |
| @kanzure | paperbot: http://www.sciencedirect.com/science?_ob=MiamiImageURL&_cid=271301&_user=1694017&_pii=S1350946200000021&_check=y&_origin=article&_zone=toolbar&_coverDate=2000--01&view=c&originContentFamily=serial&wchp=dGLbVBA-zSkzS&pid=1-s2.0-S1350946200000021-main.pdf&_valck=1&md5=88f13eada21f89ebaf86f97f1a73a2da&ie=/sdarticle.pdf | 18:01 |
| paperbot | IndexError: list index out of range (file "/srv/ikiwiki/paperbot/modules/papers.py", line 176, in download_url) | 18:01 |
| gnusha | https://secure.diyhpl.us/cgit/paperbot/commit/?id=8b3abe92 Bryan Bishop: possibly better sciencedirect handling | 18:03 |
| gnusha | paperbot: reload papers | 18:03 |
| paperbot | gnusha: <module 'papers' from '/srv/ikiwiki/paperbot/modules/papers.py'> (version: 2013-01-24 02:03:09) | 18:03 |
| @kanzure | well now sciencedirect says "Unable to connect to a Webc copy!" | 18:03 |
| @kanzure | http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/paperbot/5cfe6fbe3c75f55e24cba7fcfff43c06.txt | 18:03 |
| @kanzure | i wonder what webc is | 18:09 |
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| @kanzure | jmil was around? oops. juri_ you're supposed to hit him up. | 18:29 |
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| @kanzure | https://github.com/quantopian/zipline "Zipline is a financial backtester for trading algorithms written in Python. The system is fundamentally event-driven and a close approximation of how live-trading systems operate." | 20:28 |
| @kanzure | they seem to be running an "algorithmic trading" platform-as-a-service thing: https://www.quantopian.com/ | 20:29 |
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| @kanzure | there's certainly some weird things going on at github | 20:44 |
| @kanzure | https://github.com/antoniovazquezblanco <-- this guy seems to auto-post issues from crashes from his android app? | 20:44 |
| @kanzure | https://github.com/KhanBugz?tab=contributions <-- khan academy seems to post all bugs automatically too | 20:44 |
| @kanzure | https://github.com/michaelni?tab=contributions <-- and this guy just seems to be a very active ffmpeg developer | 20:44 |
| @kanzure | https://github.com/madsen <-- seems to push cpan data regularly | 20:46 |
| @kanzure | https://github.com/kwrobot <-- avogadro/kitware/vtk things, also high activity | 20:46 |
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| nmz787 | kanzure: is there a way to use *args in multiples? i.e. 3 args or 6 args or 9 args | 21:17 |
| nmz787 | or do i just check the len(args)%3 | 21:18 |
| nmz787 | der | 21:18 |
| @kanzure | i suggest trying to stick with zero, one or at most two positional arguments.. | 21:20 |
| nmz787 | huh? | 21:21 |
| @kanzure | positional vs. keyword arguments | 21:21 |
| @kanzure | positional arguments tend to be bad because you forget what they are | 21:22 |
| nmz787 | ahh but in this case it repeats | 21:22 |
| nmz787 | nevermind | 21:23 |
| @kanzure | but couldn't you just write a loop around calling the program? | 21:23 |
| nmz787 | i'm just gonna pass *args along to the next function | 21:23 |
| @kanzure | oh this is for functions | 21:23 |
| nmz787 | matplotlib has some lame button toolbar that isn't easily customized | 21:23 |
| nmz787 | which means i've been spending like 6 hours learning how to build a gui around it | 21:23 |
| @kanzure | yes, you can pass *args and **kwargs along by typing whatever(**kwargs) | 21:23 |
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| @kanzure | u-metacognition: welcome back | 23:40 |
| u-metacognition | Thanks | 23:41 |
| @kanzure | paperbot: http://www.nature.com/news/billion-euro-brain-simulation-and-graphene-projects-win-european-funds-1.12291 | 23:58 |
| paperbot | no translator available, raw dump: http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/paperbot/f91d73e31d71c176d8cd14f131e6c1fe.txt | 23:58 |
| @kanzure | well anyway, i'm glad markram got the funding | 23:58 |
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| --- Log closed Thu Jan 24 00:00:39 2013 | ||
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