| --- Log opened Thu Apr 18 00:00:01 2013 | ||
| @fenn | well obviously dole is an extraterrestrial sabotage agent from Sirius B intent on restricting civilian earth technology development, preferring to concentrate power into secret "black technology" elite in order to better control them | 00:00 |
|---|---|---|
| brownies | i'd settle for a transcranial magnet hat | 00:00 |
| @fenn | if you read the CIA sabotage manual you'll find a lot of advice on how to make more committee meetings and political busywork rather than actually blowing stuff up | 00:01 |
| @fenn | what better way to colonialize a planet than to give with one hand and take with the other (silently and invisibly, of course) | 00:02 |
| @fenn | okay i'm no good at this | 00:04 |
| @kanzure | you are clearly out of practice | 00:04 |
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| @fenn | every time i see the name "dole" i think canned pineapple | 00:05 |
| @kanzure | i've been thinking that the climate is probably good for proposing an "alternate" patent system | 00:05 |
| @kanzure | lots of software people are increasingly angry about patents (probably the largest organized group at this point against patents) | 00:05 |
| @fenn | they just did that, with the change to first-to-file | 00:05 |
| @kanzure | no i mean.. an actually good way of keeping track of technology. | 00:05 |
| @kanzure | you know, one that we wouldn't be embarrased about | 00:06 |
| @kanzure | not legalese | 00:06 |
| @fenn | like, uh, c2 wiki? | 00:06 |
| @kanzure | maybe. i don't know. | 00:06 |
| @kanzure | patent reform isn't going to radically change how much we suck as a planet at technology development | 00:07 |
| @fenn | i mean, as far as keeping track of software goes, i'm not sure where i'd put an article on "one click ordering" | 00:07 |
| @kanzure | i don't think it should be about articles | 00:07 |
| @kanzure | EFF is proposing to USPTO that software patents must be submitted with source code | 00:07 |
| @fenn | but software patents are just ideas, which is why people are mad about them | 00:07 |
| @kanzure | i am speaking more generally about "how we as a society agree to communicate implementations, designs, schematics, source code to each other for a modern technology infrastructure" | 00:08 |
| @kanzure | in 1000 years i really really hope that we don't have 15 million patents still | 00:08 |
| @kanzure | hell in 10 years it would be neat if we could switch over to something else | 00:08 |
| @kanzure | features that i want: | 00:09 |
| @kanzure | source code. digital files. parseable schematics that don't require OCR. however, drawings are perfectly alright to attach and should be encouraged. | 00:09 |
| @kanzure | machine readable metadata. | 00:09 |
| @kanzure | so basically skdb | 00:11 |
| @fenn | uh huh | 00:11 |
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| @kanzure | well surely you agree that keeping all of our inventions in legalese is dumb... | 00:11 |
| @fenn | the US patent "data format" is at least a common denominator | 00:11 |
| @kanzure | is it? i've seen lots of mechanical part patents that vary dramatically between each other. some have 20 schematics others do not. | 00:12 |
| @fenn | the problem is that people have learned to obfuscate their invention descriptions | 00:12 |
| @kanzure | also schematic style varies too. | 00:12 |
| @fenn | different people/companies have different motivations to share or not share information, and unfortunately the requirements don't really demand very much | 00:13 |
| @fenn | it's just broken | 00:13 |
| @kanzure | everyone already agrees it's broken :P | 00:13 |
| @fenn | i mean, a gene sequence is a chemical synthesis method, what? | 00:13 |
| @kanzure | i'm interested in what a system would look like if it was developed on today's technology without requiring legacy support. | 00:14 |
| @fenn | lots of xml and java | 00:14 |
| @kanzure | haha | 00:14 |
| @fenn | you think i'm joking | 00:15 |
| @kanzure | i think USPTO is a big pile of technical debt. | 00:15 |
| @kanzure | "Using PATENTSCOPE you can search 29,037,687 patent documents including 2,220,787 published international patent applications (PCT). " | 00:15 |
| @fenn | and the federal reserve creates economic debt, also by design | 00:16 |
| @fenn | i don't have any problem with 30 million patents, but most of them are just crap ideas in the first place | 00:17 |
| @kanzure | nah i am just oggling around at numbers | 00:17 |
| @fenn | and many of them are not sufficiently explained to replicate/implement | 00:17 |
| @kanzure | i'm sure that a chunk of them are really neat, useful, etc. | 00:17 |
| @kanzure | "this week in patents" http://patentscope.wipo.int/search/en/resultWeeklyBrowse.jsf | 00:18 |
| @fenn | that should be a requirement; white box replication by scientist/technicians | 00:18 |
| @fenn | you pay a fee for some schmuck to create your invention solely based on the patent description | 00:18 |
| @fenn | if it doesn't work as described, rewrite the patent and resubmit it | 00:19 |
| @fenn | this would be much more useful once we have general purpose robots | 00:20 |
| @fenn | so i think it's premature to try to come up with a data format before there's any way to reliably, generically, consistently, execute the instructions | 00:20 |
| brownies | but then who will hold the patent on those robots? | 00:20 |
| @fenn | brownies: you're sort of missing the point | 00:21 |
| @kanzure | i am co-opting the use of the word patent | 00:21 |
| @fenn | the idea is "how should we store technical information" | 00:21 |
| @kanzure | i am altering the terms of the agreement pray i don't etc.. | 00:22 |
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| @kanzure | "NOVEL LACTIC ACID BACTERIA AND COMPOSITIONS CONTAINING SAME" | 00:23 |
| @kanzure | "SHOE HAVING COOLING FUNCTION AND HEATING FUNCTION" | 00:23 |
| @fenn | bacteria patents at least has precedent with plant (breeder's) patents | 00:24 |
| @kanzure | i'm not sure if the goal should be an ever-lasting data format, or just realizing that every 200 years you will have to repay your technical debt and convert everything. | 00:24 |
| @kanzure | since it's never happened before, i don't have many examples to work from. | 00:25 |
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| @fenn | project gutenberg? | 00:25 |
| @kanzure | alright | 00:26 |
| @kanzure | but.. don't they leave things out? they just do raw text, right? | 00:26 |
| @fenn | uh. i don't know | 00:27 |
| @fenn | they publish ascii, pdf, mp3, mpeg, midi, xml, and various ebook formats, but this doesn't tell me whether they include images from the source material | 00:29 |
| brownies | forever is a rather long time to plan for | 00:30 |
| brownies | best most organizations can do is like 3 years | 00:30 |
| @fenn | this book has two options, images and no images: http://www.gutenberg.org/ebooks/42549 | 00:31 |
| @fenn | i'm confused why HTML doesn't have a similar images/no images option | 00:31 |
| @kanzure | "While the works in Project Gutenberg represent a valuable sample of publications that span several centuries, there are some issues of concern for linguistic analysis. Some content may have been modified by the transcriber because of editorial changes or corrections (such as to correct for obvious proof-setting or printing errors). The spelling may also have been modified to conform with current practices (although the intent by Project ... | 00:32 |
| @kanzure | ... Gutenberg,[23] and by Distributed Proofreaders,[1] is to preserve the original text and where possible the formatting). This can mean that the works may be problematic when searching for older grammatical usage." | 00:32 |
| @kanzure | i bet the answer is "it varies between each book" | 00:33 |
| @fenn | well i can understand that, in the early days there were people with the extreme position that they should preserve typography errors and even the page layout (in ascii text!) | 00:34 |
| brownies | that seems a bit counterproductive | 00:34 |
| @fenn | anyway gutenberg has the advantage that they have a specific idea of what is "a book" and what is not a book, whereas i'm not sure there's a clear definition for invention or improvement or design or process | 00:36 |
| @fenn | should note that in the old days a book referred to the abstract data structure, which could span many physical objects, or be part of a collection of books in a single bound volume | 00:38 |
| @kanzure | not sure what i would do with materials research patents | 00:39 |
| @kanzure | it is easier to deal with technology that is explicitly electronic (schematics), software (source code), genome-related (sequences), mechanical (solid modeling file formats, schematics). | 00:40 |
| @kanzure | (and perhaps not all at once) | 00:41 |
| @fenn | i'd leave off mechanical because the level of abstraction is less practical | 00:42 |
| @kanzure | now that brlcad has nurbs intersection i don't see why not | 00:43 |
| @fenn | electronics has enjoyed such success as formalism because 1) the laws are simple and mostly linear, and 2) being one-dimensional, the goal is clearly specified with a transfer function | 00:44 |
| @fenn | i wanted to say something about manufacturing process being important, but i guess that's true with electronics as well, just there has been a trend toward formalizing the manufacturing process as well, so the designer doesn't have to invent his own manufacturing process as well the way mechanical engineers usually do | 00:46 |
| @fenn | i mean electronics is physically 2D because of the way the process of assembling the circuit is communicated (or is it just convention) | 00:47 |
| @fenn | anyway, a car can't be a flat 2d structure, a rocket can't be, a house can't be, etc | 00:48 |
| @fenn | a chunk of doped silicon can be described as an ideal transistor, but in reality it has all sorts of fuzzy diffusion and mask errors and defects that may or may not be important to the function of the device | 00:50 |
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| @fenn | i guess what's important is that you only use things as they were intended to be used | 00:52 |
| @kanzure | "2. Crontab style tasks are great... until they take a long time to complete and Celery kills them. And then you're back to regular crons (and there is nothing wrong with that)." huh. | 00:53 |
| @fenn | are there fully-automated chemical synthesis work stations? for drug discovery and so on | 00:57 |
| @fenn | i don't see why a file format/schema for something like this would be any less abstract than one for a CNC mill or PCB pick and place: http://www.gilsonuk.com/laboratoryAutomation/synthesis | 00:59 |
| @kanzure | what i meant earlier about materials patents is that they often seem more like data that should be an addendum to CRC or something, but instead they are a patent on a particular material composition or something and some effect of that combination. | 01:00 |
| @fenn | oh, i thought you were contrasting electronic/genome/mechanical to process/technique patents | 01:01 |
| @kanzure | nope. | 01:01 |
| @kanzure | paperbot: http://www.nature.com/ncomms/journal/v4/n4/full/ncomms2747.html | 01:01 |
| paperbot | HTTP 401 unauthorized http://www.nature.com/ncomms/journal/v4/n4/pdf/ncomms2747.pdf | 01:01 |
| @kanzure | would have been “High-power lithium ion microbatteries from interdigitated three-dimensional bicontinuous nanoporous electrodes” | 01:01 |
| @fenn | (aside from the fact that that's not a patent) is that the sort of thing that you'd call a materials patent? | 01:02 |
| @kanzure | no, that's the sort of thing that i was hoping to read | 01:03 |
| @kanzure | and now i am sad :( | 01:03 |
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| nmz787 | paperbot: http://www.sciencedirect.com.proxy.lib.pdx.edu/science?_ob=MiamiImageURL&_cid=271389&_user=1694017&_pii=S0022113900803413&_check=y&_origin=article&_zone=toolbar&_coverDate=1991-May-31&view=c&originContentFamily=serial&wchp=dGLzVlt-zSkzk&md5=0abeda3598ab79847d94e5c4c0d30e69&pid=1-s2.0-S0022113900803413-main.pdf | 01:49 |
| paperbot | no translator available, raw dump: http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/paperbot/42652faac621e44e71b8f6bee0586439.txt | 01:49 |
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| nmz787 | kanzure: have you seen this? https://github.com/pybrain/pybrain/blob/master/pybrain/rl/environments/ode/environment.py | 02:24 |
| nmz787 | "Virtual simulation for rigid bodies. Uses ODE as a physics engine and OpenGL as graphics | 02:25 |
| nmz787 | interface to simulate and display arbitrary objects. Virtual worlds are defined through | 02:25 |
| nmz787 | an XML file in XODE format (see http://tanksoftware.com/xode/)" | 02:25 |
| nmz787 | not sure if that includes curve intersection :/ | 02:25 |
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| @kanzure | yeah i know about ODE | 03:22 |
| @kanzure | and pybrain | 03:22 |
| @kanzure | depending on what they are using intersections for, it could be anything from OpenGL rendering to subdivision | 03:22 |
| @kanzure | marching subdivision marchingness | 03:23 |
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| nmz787 | kanzure: this also mentions surface intersection http://nathanmccorkle.com/pdf/Parallel%20Training%20of%20Artificial%20Neural%20Networks%20Using%20Multithreaded%20and%20Multicore%20CPUs.pdf | 03:50 |
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| DonnchaC | paperbot: http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/dta.362/abstract | 08:23 |
| paperbot | no translator available, raw dump: http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/paperbot/986d5e0dae6e84b1a1e27e78b39cb239.txt | 08:23 |
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| DonnchaC | http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/paperbot/986d5e0dae6e84b1a1e27e78b39cb239.txt | 09:12 |
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| @kanzure | "SRA alone is >1000 Tb (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/Traces/sra/), where are you going to put it?" | 10:03 |
| @kanzure | "Octopart is now integrated with PLM360, Autodesk's cloud-based PLM solution. Autodesk users can now access part information right within PLM360." | 10:06 |
| @kanzure | octopart api v3 is out | 10:06 |
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| @kanzure | i should make irssi reorder windows so that highlights float towards the lower digits | 11:41 |
| @kanzure | also it would be nice to have universal keybindings for window movement (like left/right/seek/jump) where i could always be sure that C-a means gnome/xmonad windows, C-b means gnome-terminal tabs, C-c means tmux tabs inside the current gnome-terminal window, and C-d means irssi windows inside the current tmux tab. | 11:42 |
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| HEx1 | juri_: IANAElectricalEngineer, but I admit to being puzzled why you'd implement such a thing with discrete 74xx chips | 12:22 |
| ParahSailin | paperbot: http://smj.rsmjournals.com/content/58/1/e1.full.pdf+html | 12:27 |
| paperbot | no translator available, raw dump: http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/paperbot/a855e2d1066d82614ea19dadf38c1b62.txt | 12:27 |
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| juri_ | HEx1: low cost / availability of parts? | 15:34 |
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| chris_99 | whatcha making juri_ | 15:35 |
| juri_ | chris: hopefully, a single step motor controller. | 15:37 |
| chris_99 | a controller for a stepper motor, right? | 15:38 |
| juri_ | yepyep. | 15:38 |
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| chris_99 | ah, i've used a single discrete chip for that iirc | 15:38 |
| juri_ | thats what i used to use. it burned out, and funds are low, so i built a circuit instead. | 15:39 |
| chris_99 | aha | 15:39 |
| panax | you should be able to do that with a $2 microcontroller | 15:40 |
| chris_99 | nope | 15:40 |
| chris_99 | the stepper motor controller can drive the stepper | 15:41 |
| chris_99 | a MCU couldn't directly | 15:41 |
| panax | and you need some transistors out there to drive it of course | 15:41 |
| chris_99 | which is almost a stepper motor controller then | 15:41 |
| panax | it is | 15:42 |
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| honey | hello | 16:30 |
| @kanzure | hi. | 16:30 |
| honey | hello again. | 16:30 |
| honey | is this your chan? | 16:31 |
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| @kanzure | no | 16:36 |
| honey | lol. | 16:36 |
| honey | ok. | 16:36 |
| @kanzure | what? | 16:36 |
| honey | it says its registered to you. | 16:36 |
| honey | anyhow.. | 16:37 |
| honey | another puzzle piece. | 16:37 |
| @kanzure | what do you want? | 16:37 |
| honey | i told you before. lol | 16:37 |
| honey | i stumbled on this chan from some person who was in a mac chan. | 16:38 |
| honey | and then.. it linked me to a sec chan i hang in. | 16:38 |
| honey | so idk.. was just kinda curious. | 16:38 |
| honey | idk. i pmd you.. but its cool.. im just bored. | 16:38 |
| honey | nm. | 16:39 |
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| brownies | well, that was certainly something. | 16:44 |
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| @kanzure | antikythera mechanism simulator http://www.etl.uom.gr/mr/index.php?mypage=antikythera_sim | 22:11 |
| @kanzure | http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antikythera_mechanism | 22:11 |
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| kanzure | something is disturbing the server | 23:36 |
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| --- Log closed Fri Apr 19 00:00:02 2013 | ||
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