| --- Log opened Tue May 21 00:00:29 2013 | ||
| --- Day changed Tue May 21 2013 | ||
| kirka | Ah. I do electronics and simple robotics at home, and I became interested in biological experiments. | 00:00 |
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| yashgaroth | well there isn't much to do, despite the many news articles about it | 00:01 |
| kirka | I don't have a large ambition, I think that transformations already cool. | 00:02 |
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| yashgaroth | well that kit should suit you fine then | 00:04 |
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| archels | ScienceDirect appears borked, it keeps giving me 'Request Entity too Large' | 03:49 |
| archels | ...and no paperbot :( | 03:49 |
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| heath | archels: have tried reddit.com/r/scholar? | 05:42 |
| heath | +you | 05:42 |
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| heath | 404: http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/bio/books/Molecular%20Biology%20of%20the%20Gene%20-%202006.pdf | 05:47 |
| heath | linked from http://diyhpl.us/wiki/diybio/faq/books/ | 05:47 |
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| archels | .t http://www.pnas.org/content/early/2013/05/01/1216197110 | 05:55 |
| yoleaux | archels: Sorry, I don't know a timezone by that name. | 05:55 |
| archels | .title | 05:55 |
| yoleaux | Parkin overexpression during aging reduces proteotoxicity, alters mitochondrial dynamics, and extends lifespan | 05:55 |
| archels | heath: thanks, mostly I just wanted to check whether the failure of ScienceDirect was on my side or theirs. | 05:56 |
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| heath | www.google.com/patents/US20120283140 | 06:02 |
| heath | "Microfluidic Devices and Methods for Gene Synthesis" | 06:02 |
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| archels | Lecture series - Extreme Makeover. Body Transformations, culture and the ideal self | 06:30 |
| archels | potentially interesting | 06:30 |
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| kirka | If someone is interested here is my simple physical model of c.elegans http://anonymousdelivers.us/49074 | 09:40 |
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| archels | oh man, you coded a physics engine in Lisp? | 09:49 |
| kanzure | heath: instead of reddit, i recommend http://diyhpl.us/wiki/articles | 09:50 |
| kirka | archels Yes, I have done 3 physics sims (this one: simple point masses, in lisp, second: 2d rigid bodies, C++, third that I'm developing now: 3d rigid bodies with constraints, in lisp) | 09:51 |
| kirka | First-hand experience gives real understanding of classical mechanics. | 09:52 |
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| fenn | the worm simulator looks much cooler animated, anyway here's a screenshot: http://fennetic.net/irc/kirka_c.elegans_simulator.png you'll need to install lispbuilder-sdl with quicklisp and then load sim.lisp | 10:01 |
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| kirka | If you make timestep small enough and improve integrator you can model almost rigid objects like robots even in this minimal simulator. | 10:04 |
| kanzure | fenn: i was hoping that was an animated gif.. you are lazy today. | 10:04 |
| fenn | hey i just got it running five minutes ago | 10:04 |
| kanzure | LAZY | 10:04 |
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| kirka | kanzure If you are interested here is a video http://rghost.net/46101857 | 10:21 |
| kirka | Don't know if it'll work in every browser | 10:21 |
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| fenn | i converted it to a gif, cropped it, and sped it up: http://fennetic.net/irc/kirka_worm_simulator.gif | 10:42 |
| fenn | it seems to bounce around a lot more in that movie than the current version | 10:42 |
| chris_99 | tis 403 forbidden fenn | 10:43 |
| kirka | Bouncing is transitional effect: simulation starts with worm slightly above ground plane | 10:43 |
| fenn | ok try now. i guess mplayer makes files with weird permissions | 10:43 |
| chris_99 | ooh that's neat | 10:43 |
| chris_99 | yeah it works now | 10:43 |
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| chris_99 | what interpreter are you using for that kirka | 10:45 |
| kirka | You could make sea starts or soft legged animals in this sim: just write subrotines that spawn points and connect them with springs | 10:45 |
| kanzure | huh, i didn't expect you to use mplayer to make a gif. i thought you'd go for convert. | 10:45 |
| kirka | chris_99 Steel Bank Common Lisp. That's a fast compiler. Compared to python common lisp is more expressive and tens of times faster. Ideal language for exploratory programming. | 10:46 |
| chris_99 | nice :) | 10:46 |
| fenn | has there been any work done on "compiling to GPU"? for lack of a better phrase | 10:47 |
| fenn | something like theano, to automatically generate optimized CUDA code as necessary | 10:47 |
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| kirka | Yes there is work: openworm project is developing PCI-SPH code for openCL | 10:47 |
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| kanzure | wasn't there an nvidia cl library that was released a month ago? | 10:48 |
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| eudoxia | paperbot: http://dl.acm.org/citation.cfm?id=121998 | 10:49 |
| eudoxia | i think i broke it | 10:49 |
| kanzure | nope it is just dead | 10:50 |
| kirka | Have you tried s c i - h u b . org? | 10:50 |
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| kanzure | .title http://scihub.org/ | 10:50 |
| yoleaux | Welcome to Science Hub - Leading The Information Highway | 10:50 |
| eudoxia | 10:01 < fenn> the worm simulator looks much cooler animated, anyway here's a screenshot: http://fennetic.net/irc/kirka_c.elegans_simulator.png you'll need to install lispbuilder-sdl with quicklisp and then load sim.lisp | 10:50 |
| eudoxia | oh my god someone actually used lispbuilder-sdl? | 10:50 |
| kanzure | .title http://sci-hub.org/ | 10:51 |
| yoleaux | Sci-Hub - сервис доступа к научной литературе | ScienceDirect, Springer, Wiley, IEEE, JSTOR - скачать | научные журналы и статьи - бесплатно | 10:51 |
| kirka | eudoxia Yes, that's a good library for drawing lines, points and stuff | 10:51 |
| eudoxia | oh kirka's here that explains it | 10:51 |
| kirka | Heh | 10:51 |
| eudoxia | hello bro, long time no see | 10:51 |
| kanzure | it redirects me to http://www.kremlin.ru/ | 10:51 |
| kirka | Hi | 10:51 |
| kanzure | paperbot: http://dl.acm.org/citation.cfm?id=121998 | 10:51 |
| kirka | I was reading books and writing programs, and studying at university | 10:51 |
| paperbot | IOError: [Errno 2] No such file or directory: '/home/bryan/public_html/papers2/paperbot/The WINTERP Widget INTERPreter—a Lisp prototyping and extension environment for OSF/motif based applications user-interfaces.pdf' (file "/srv/ikiwiki/paperbot/modules/papers.py", line 116, in download) | 10:51 |
| kanzure | whaaaatt | 10:51 |
| eudoxia | kanzure: it's not a valid pdf download url anyways | 10:52 |
| kanzure | oh there's an — in the title. and a "/". that's stupid. | 10:52 |
| kanzure | i thought i stripped out invalid characters. | 10:52 |
| kanzure | i am very confused. | 10:52 |
| fenn | gratz you found a zero day :P | 10:52 |
| eudoxia | my first <3 | 10:52 |
| kirka | kanzure scihub is a proxy for downloading papers. I depend on it for punching paywalls. It'll be bad if something goes wrong with it. | 10:53 |
| kanzure | do you know who made it? | 10:53 |
| kanzure | http://sci-hub.copiny.com/ | 10:53 |
| kirka | Looks like libgen-related guys. I should say large "Thank you!" to them | 10:54 |
| kanzure | do they have backups or is it only a proxy? | 10:54 |
| kanzure | yeah, all of my queries are redirected to kremlin.ru.. do you have a recommended vps provider in russia? | 10:54 |
| kirka | Often paper is first downloaded to cache at libgen | 10:54 |
| eudoxia | http://fennetic.net/irc/kirka_worm_simulator.gif this kind of looks like my nanoengineer experiments | 10:54 |
| kirka | kanzure Don't know any | 10:54 |
| kanzure | you are the worst russian mob boss i've ever met | 10:55 |
| eudoxia | paperbot: http://dl.acm.org/ft_gateway.cfm?id=121998&type=pdf&CFID=218855820&CFTOKEN=62731612 | 10:55 |
| paperbot | no translator available, raw dump: http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/paperbot/60c3b860aa4bc71fa274f7afd7ff66b2.pdf | 10:55 |
| eudoxia | thanks paperbot | 10:56 |
| kirka | kanzure heh, but I'm just user of this stuff | 10:56 |
| klafka | do any of you guys use redis? | 10:56 |
| klafka | per chance | 10:56 |
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| kanzure | klafka: yes i've used redis | 10:57 |
| kanzure | eudoxia: https://github.com/kanzure/paperbot/issues/12 | 10:58 |
| klafka | so i'm developing on a server that is running redis on it and the redis db is like 40gb | 10:58 |
| klafka | and vim keeps crashing whenever redis is on | 10:58 |
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| klafka | here is my suspicion, when it creates an rdb file it's fucking up io | 10:58 |
| klafka | on the computer | 10:58 |
| kanzure | kirka: can you check sci-hub.org and download a paper from JSTOR or RSC or AIP, and then show me the paper? i am curious to see what the watermarks say. | 10:59 |
| kirka | kanzure Ok | 10:59 |
| klafka | i'm changing to append only file to see if that works | 10:59 |
| kanzure | kirka: thanks | 10:59 |
| klafka | but is what i'm saying like crazy or does it make any sense? | 10:59 |
| klafka | i don't really understand systems programming | 10:59 |
| kanzure | klafka: strace vim, then tell me how it crashes | 10:59 |
| klafka | what's strace ? | 11:00 |
| kanzure | klafka: also you can look at "top" to do a quick sanity check of what the different processes are doing | 11:00 |
| kanzure | klafka: and also look at "dmesg | less" (in particular, the bottom of this buffer) to see if your server is doing stupid things | 11:00 |
| klafka | well i mean it is typically happening when redis is writing | 11:00 |
| kanzure | klafka: strace shows you system calls being made by the process (in this case, vim) | 11:00 |
| klafka | aah | 11:00 |
| klafka | it's weird vim just like locks up | 11:00 |
| klafka | it never crashes | 11:00 |
| kanzure | certain system calls are going to be constrained during large writes, i think | 11:00 |
| klafka | i have to kill the screen it is in | 11:00 |
| klafka | i see | 11:00 |
| kirka | btw they have a twitter https://twitter.com/Sci_Hub | 11:01 |
| kanzure | klafka: this is certainly something worth tweaking but i don't have good suggestions for you. | 11:01 |
| kirka | kanzure http://sci-hub.org/pdfcache/aea5ca568acd5fd36948214424c20b54.pdf | 11:01 |
| kanzure | jrayhawk: maybe you have some ideas for klafka's problem? | 11:01 |
| klafka | damn it just froze again | 11:01 |
| klafka | redis does not appear to be running - | 11:02 |
| kanzure | klafka: i dunno how big you can run redis, at some point you might want to consider multiple servers and sharding. | 11:02 |
| klafka | er saving | 11:02 |
| klafka | i mean it should just fit in memory | 11:02 |
| kanzure | kirka: "This content downloaded from 137.99.31.134 on Tue, 21 May 2013 14:00:58 PM" | 11:02 |
| klafka | i think it's really poor architecture if the db cant' be as big as the ram on my computer | 11:02 |
| klafka | and i have 244gb ram | 11:02 |
| kirka | I have worries about watermarking too. I thought about converting papers to djvu, so there cannot be any watermark or DRM. | 11:02 |
| kanzure | kirka: it seems to be uconn.edu | 11:03 |
| kanzure | kirka: if you know the owners of this site, you should tell them to use https://github.com/kanzure/pdfparanoia to remove this information | 11:03 |
| kanzure | fucking amateurs | 11:03 |
| kirka | kanzure Ok. if I'll find them I'll talk to them | 11:03 |
| kirka | That's serious, I'd like for scihub to live on | 11:04 |
| kanzure | kirka: could you try one more? RSC or AIP? | 11:04 |
| eudoxia | kirka even uses the same license I do (MIT) | 11:04 |
| eudoxia | it's almost surreal | 11:04 |
| kanzure | eudoxia: MIT is not exactly an unknown license... | 11:04 |
| eudoxia | oh i know but this is just another intersection in the list of things we have in common | 11:04 |
| kirka | eudoxia We have quite similar views on things, heh | 11:05 |
| eudoxia | maybe one of us is an uploaded copy of the other one O: | 11:05 |
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| chris_99 | it tells you who the university is actually on that sci-hub thing | 11:08 |
| chris_99 | on ieee for example | 11:08 |
| kirka | kanzure http://sci-hub.org/pdfcache/a258a4344b325b29d0ce7f9462e11277.pdf | 11:09 |
| kanzure | "university of minnesota - twin cities" | 11:09 |
| kanzure | http://umn.edu/ and http://uconn.edu/ so far. | 11:10 |
| kirka | kanzure I'm writing them in their feedback form | 11:10 |
| kanzure | so maybe they have multiple exit points that they are trying | 11:10 |
| kirka | Yes | 11:10 |
| kanzure | still, i think that's very sloppy | 11:10 |
| chris_99 | i got something other than that | 11:10 |
| kanzure | and will compromise their university accounts | 11:10 |
| kanzure | chris_99: what did you get? | 11:10 |
| chris_99 | ball something state i think | 11:10 |
| kanzure | kirka: thanks for checking a second article | 11:11 |
| kirka | kanzure That's it, you can gtranslate it http://sci-hub.copiny.com/problem/details/id/91055 | 11:14 |
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| DonnchaC | It looks like they pay people to use their university accounts as proxies? | 11:19 |
| DonnchaC | or to get VPN/proxy access to those college networks | 11:19 |
| DonnchaC | I wonder how they stay online. I suppose just host outside of the US/EU? | 11:20 |
| kanzure | well, they are making multiple mistakes at the moment.. i hope if they do pay, they are using bitcoins. | 11:21 |
| kanzure | they aren't stripping watermarks. they are using .ru, which could be problematic if they become blocked.. | 11:21 |
| kanzure | right now they seem to be at 46.38.63.192 | 11:22 |
| kanzure | which is "TC TEL hosting" | 11:23 |
| kanzure | ok i posted, https://groups.google.com/d/msg/science-liberation-front/7LlsS7BS3Ec/zeA2dqmgh1QJ | 11:25 |
| kirka | kanzure In russia copyright still isn't a large issue, but it's strengthening. This probably explains their insecurity. | 11:27 |
| kanzure | how sad. i want them to survive. | 11:29 |
| kirka | I want it too | 11:29 |
| kanzure | kirka: would you be willing to translate the README here? https://github.com/kanzure/pdfparanoia | 11:32 |
| kirka | kanzure Ok | 11:32 |
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| kanzure | east bay diybio needs more people voting on their potential name: http://www.surveymonkey.com/s/68LSZK9 | 11:40 |
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| kanzure | it is down to "counter culture labs", "east bay biolab", and "metaphase institute" | 11:41 |
| eudoxia | >counter culture labs | 11:44 |
| eudoxia | :/ | 11:44 |
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| kanzure | eudoxia: culture counting. get it? | 11:46 |
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| eudoxia | oh, cultures as in petri dishes and shit. | 11:47 |
| kanzure | yeah, it could be more obvious i think | 11:51 |
| juri_ | i like it. | 11:51 |
| kanzure | and then you can make lots of jokes about countable and uncountable infinities. | 11:51 |
| kirka | kanzure Here is translation http://pastebin.com/A6NdhJ15 | 11:53 |
| kirka | kanzure Oh, I forgot to delete first line of english text | 11:54 |
| eudoxia | you might want to translate output.pdf and input.pdf | 11:54 |
| kanzure | is input/output something that russians know in english? | 11:55 |
| kanzure | i have no idea what russians know about english | 11:55 |
| kirka | eudoxia Don't think that's necessary. Actually knowledge of english language is a must for russian sciencists | 11:55 |
| kirka | kanzure It's either you know english or you cannot read new books and scientific papers, so sciencists know it | 11:56 |
| kanzure | ok | 11:57 |
| kanzure | good point | 11:57 |
| eudoxia | i think it's pretty much the same everywhere | 11:57 |
| fenn | japan is going to make passing TOEFL a requirement for university entrance | 12:01 |
| fenn | it seems wrong to me somehow, since some people are just not good at learning foreign languages, for the same mysterious reason they're good at whatever it is they do | 12:02 |
| kanzure | kirka: thank you for the translation, i've committed to the repository with the text. | 12:03 |
| ParahSailin | passing toefl is not hard for japanese or chinese | 12:10 |
| ParahSailin | you barely have to know any english | 12:10 |
| kanzure | i fear that it will be too easy for publishers to identify the sources of the downloads from sci-hub.org, even if watermarks are removed | 12:17 |
| kanzure | because a publisher could just type in a paper, then wait for a university to download the paper in the next few seconds | 12:17 |
| kanzure | sci-hub.org could choose to make requests from 100 different universities at the same time, to obfuscate which one the paper is traveling through | 12:18 |
| fenn | um. that just means they get 100x more info on how compromised their network is | 12:18 |
| kanzure | but, that will just tell them exactly who they have to go yell at.. | 12:18 |
| kanzure | yes that's true, i think downloading ahead of time is the only way | 12:18 |
| kanzure | or if you are willing to infuriate your users you could have random delays (minutes, hours, days) before it is downloaded | 12:19 |
| fenn | if you assume there's some kind of download analytics/tracking system in place, wouldnt it be obvious that these particular 452 accounts are downloading at maximum rate? | 12:19 |
| fenn | if there's not any logging/tracking system, they wouldnt know who downloaded the paper in the first place | 12:20 |
| kanzure | publishers absolutely do have http server logs | 12:20 |
| kanzure | i have seen these logs | 12:20 |
| kirka | kanzure Looks like s c i h u b creator is from Kazakhstan, it's relatively copyright-safe country | 12:20 |
| fenn | i dont think the delay idea works because 90% of papers are only read by 5 people, so that's like two downloads a year max | 12:20 |
| kanzure | pfft yeah ok, and i'm from calxistan | 12:20 |
| fenn | hey metoo | 12:21 |
| kanzure | fenn: well, downloading immediately is probably the worst idea out of all of them | 12:21 |
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| kanzure | maybe you should use only one exit node per publisher | 12:21 |
| kanzure | and once that node is burned, you move on to the next | 12:21 |
| fenn | does it matter if it takes 5 seconds or 5 minutes or 5 days? | 12:21 |
| kanzure | yeah, because if it takes 5 days maybe the publisher is stupid and will forget | 12:22 |
| kanzure | "any moment now" while watching their logs piped through less | 12:22 |
| fenn | yeah, i dont think the people doing enforcement have shell access | 12:22 |
| kanzure | that should be treated as an unknown | 12:23 |
| fenn | i'm willing to bet these are lawyer type people, the kind that wake up at 6 am and put on perfume and makeup and watch CNN | 12:23 |
| fenn | anyway they're not going to have raw logs blazing across a console | 12:24 |
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| brownies | perfume AND makeup? whoa. | 12:25 |
| kanzure | when something bad happens to servers, you don't call in your lawyers to investigate.. | 12:25 |
| fenn | they're not lawyers, they just ... act similar | 12:26 |
| kanzure | .title http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XK01XiGhMLI | 12:27 |
| yoleaux | Funniest Harvey Birdman scene (My opinion - YouTube | 12:27 |
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| kanzure | hm maybe that's not the right scene. but anyway i'm sure there's a birdman scene that would adequately fit this situation. | 12:29 |
| jrayhawk | klafka: vim likes to call sync() on .viminfo and swap files a lot; it's probable that redis is (unsafely) dirtying multiple gigs of VFS writeback cache on the same filesystem | 12:33 |
| jrayhawk | you can keep track of that with the 'dirty' and 'writeback' sections of /proc/meminfo | 12:33 |
| jrayhawk | e.g. when those reach zero, vim should become usable again | 12:33 |
| kanzure | wasn't there a way to stop vim from doing those things | 12:34 |
| jrayhawk | probably, but the real problem here is leaving massive amounts of cache dirty in order to hide the performance costs of nonvolatile memory | 12:35 |
| jrayhawk | or at least, if you're going to do that, you should be doing it on an isolated filesystem | 12:35 |
| jrayhawk | and on data that you don't really care about | 12:35 |
| kanzure | what about running vim exclusively on /dev/shm in this case? | 12:36 |
| jrayhawk | that was non-sequiter; please rephrase | 12:36 |
| kanzure | is /dev/shm sufficiently isolated to run vim in klafka's situation? | 12:36 |
| jrayhawk | /dev/shm is not relevant | 12:37 |
| kanzure | i thought /dev/shm was an in-RAM filesystem that you can poke and prod? | 12:37 |
| DonnchaC | There does not seem to be an easy way to get around the problem of publishers identifying the sources of papers | 12:39 |
| jrayhawk | technically true, but that one has specific semantics in the filesystem base standard | 12:39 |
| DonnchaC | Obviously if watermarks etc. are removed it's not as immedietly obvious the source. | 12:39 |
| DonnchaC | I suppose you would just need a relatively large number of SOCK's proxies, some time delay and watermark removal | 12:40 |
| DonnchaC | If watermarks are removed its not conclusive that the PDF published is the one download X minutes/hours earlier | 12:41 |
| DonnchaC | Therefore they can't immediatly prove that library is breaking their T&C's of access? | 12:41 |
| jrayhawk | like, you could use that for .viminfo and swap files in the same sense that you could put every file on your filesystem in / | 12:41 |
| jrayhawk | technically possible, and simultaneously disgusting | 12:42 |
| kanzure | DonnchaC: they would have to be extremely patient to gather enough evidence against a particular university, i think | 12:45 |
| kanzure | DonnchaC: of course, if the traffic is not randomly distributed, then it will be more obvious to publishers | 12:45 |
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| kirka | paperbot http://www.sciencemag.org/content/338/6113/1476 | 12:50 |
| paperbot | http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/paperbot/Hox%20Genes%20Regulate%20Digit%20Patterning%20by%20Controlling%20the%20Wavelength%20of%20a%20Turing-Type%20Mechanism.pdf | 12:50 |
| kanzure | i guess i should make paperbot use sci-hub | 12:51 |
| kirka | Why? | 12:51 |
| juri_ | might as well take advantage of their exit nodes. | 12:54 |
| nmz787 | so what should i teach this programming student I'm tutoring today? | 12:57 |
| nmz787 | first lesson | 12:57 |
| nmz787 | i don't want to ramble too much, I'd like to do some excercise | 12:57 |
| eudoxia | http://www.cs.cmu.edu/~dst/LispBook/book.pdf | 12:57 |
| eudoxia | the first chapters that introduce functions as nodes in a diagram | 12:57 |
| nmz787 | I've done some excercise work in the many programming classes i've taken, but my projects are all I remember | 12:58 |
| nmz787 | cool, looking now | 12:58 |
| nmz787 | i tried explaining the difference between interpreted and compiled languages by saying you don't exactly know what the computer is doing for something like divide by 2, since it could be the actual divide op, or a bit shit | 12:59 |
| nmz787 | shift | 12:59 |
| kanzure | i don't think lisp is a good introduction to programming | 12:59 |
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| nmz787 | but I don't know how to divide/mult in binary | 12:59 |
| nmz787 | so I am not good at explaining that way | 12:59 |
| kanzure | i would say get a user in front of an interpreter as fast as possible (and not lisp) | 12:59 |
| nmz787 | yeah he's got python installed | 12:59 |
| kanzure | jenna likes codeskulptor.org | 12:59 |
| eudoxia | the first chapters are language agnostic | 12:59 |
| DonnchaC | I suppose, they do distribute the traffic pretty randomly. If you google translate their donations page it looks like they pay people for the uni socks proxies. | 13:02 |
| kanzure | are they using tor between the universities and their servers? | 13:03 |
| DonnchaC | I don't think so, they actually redirect you to publishers site some times acting as a http proxy. | 13:04 |
| kanzure | oh geeze that's not good | 13:05 |
| DonnchaC | Sorry, connection to bad to check it out at the moment. But I remember requesting an article and being show the published site say I was "Access from xxx university" | 13:05 |
| kanzure | that's bad because they can put cookies on your computer | 13:05 |
| kanzure | and fingerprint your user-agent strings and shit | 13:05 |
| DonnchaC | Have they been up for long? | 13:05 |
| kanzure | sci-hub? no idea. | 13:05 |
| DonnchaC | To what end? | 13:05 |
| kanzure | fingerprinting? any small amount of information leaking out can be used against you. | 13:06 |
| DonnchaC | They could still only set cookies for their own domains. Setting up a large copyright infringing site from multiple publishers to try trace individual users downloading a few papers doesn't sound like a great idea | 13:07 |
| DonnchaC | if they wanted to track people | 13:07 |
| kanzure | cookies could only be accessed through the proxy of course, because of how cross-domain security works, but that's still bad. | 13:07 |
| juri_ | nmz787: as a teacher, i try to immediately teach my student enough of a language to accomplish something they want, but is dirt simple. usually shell scripting, or C. by keeping them scratching their own itches, i kept more students. | 13:07 |
| DonnchaC | Hmm, the domain was registered 16 April 2011 | 13:08 |
| DonnchaC | I'm not sure if the current site has been there since. Can you check archive.org? | 13:08 |
| DonnchaC | I literally have a few kilobyte/s connection at the moment | 13:09 |
| nmz787 | juri_: so projects that they're interested in rather than lame rote excercises? | 13:09 |
| juri_ | nmz: yepyep. | 13:09 |
| juri_ | thats hard to do, as a lot of people cannot answe rthe question 'what do you want?'. | 13:09 |
| juri_ | but, if you can find out what the student wants to do and craft the exercises around that, its a great platform to jump from. | 13:10 |
| juri_ | i find that works in about 2 out of every 3 students. have the student it doesn't work on help the other students, and what they want will work its way out after a few weeks. | 13:11 |
| kanzure | DonnchaC: late 2011 | 13:12 |
| kanzure | http://web.archive.org/web/20111108222511/http://sci-hub.org/ | 13:13 |
| kanzure | "under construction" | 13:13 |
| DonnchaC | They seem to be doing something right if they have kept going that long | 13:14 |
| nmz787 | juri_: he seemed to already have modelled some iPhone app in a mock-up program, so I guess he's not too dumb about this stuff :) | 13:14 |
| kanzure | http://web.archive.org/web/20120504015703/http://myescience.org/ | 13:14 |
| kanzure | in 2012 it was a vbulletin forum | 13:14 |
| DonnchaC | Maybe the publishers aren't as sharp, as aware or as aggersive as we think | 13:14 |
| DonnchaC | Okay, so this automated system is new? | 13:15 |
| kanzure | "IMPORTANT FOR ALL !! myescience.org does not store any files on its server. We only index and link to content provided by other sites. If you found any copyright infringement, please contact the content providers to delete copyright contents, and email us, we'll remove relevant links or contents immediately." | 13:15 |
| kanzure | http://myescience.org/ | 13:15 |
| kanzure | "Threads: 31,374, Posts: 90,764, Members: 68,70" | 13:15 |
| kanzure | oops | 13:15 |
| kanzure | 68,709 | 13:15 |
| kanzure | they seem to make you pay to get access to credits to post for someone to fetch papers for you | 13:17 |
| kanzure | http://myescience.org/forumdisplay.php?s=01a856aa284b90a8f3c658c62a5ef191&f=500 | 13:17 |
| kanzure | this is very similar to how expaper.cn operates | 13:17 |
| juri_ | nmz: excelent. if he's modeled up an iphone app, its time to review the iphone SDK license with him and a lawyer. ;) | 13:18 |
| juri_ | personally, i usually start my students out on the subject of morality by watching oppenheimer read his letter. | 13:19 |
| eudoxia | hahaha | 13:20 |
| juri_ | in a related subject, isn't everyone here glad they've never had me as a teacher? :) | 13:20 |
| DonnchaC | Thats pretty popular | 13:21 |
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| kanzure | DonnchaC: eh, it's not that hard to get people to sign up to forums. people have been indoctrinated to vbulletin, phpbb, ikonboard, ubb, invisionboard, fluxbb, smf, etc. for over a decade now. so they get really interested in new forums (or something). | 13:24 |
| kanzure | DonnchaC: plus, one of the things you do as a forum administrator is you spoof the user registration counter because you want people to think you have activity | 13:24 |
| DonnchaC | From their accounting page they say they give $0-40 per university proxies | 13:24 |
| kanzure | $40/month? | 13:24 |
| DonnchaC | yeah maybe, its on their accounting page | 13:25 |
| kanzure | when i was doing the math for a similar operation, i figured i could get $500-$2k/mo per proxy if there was 1000-5000 people assigned per proxy paying that student | 13:25 |
| kanzure | and it could be pitched as a way to make up for student loan debt | 13:25 |
| DonnchaC | Interesting | 13:25 |
| DonnchaC | Certainly an incentive for broke students to lend their access | 13:26 |
| kanzure | unfortunately the per-proxy coverage isn't high enough | 13:26 |
| jrayhawk | heath: i got your account confirmation email. i would suggest resubmitting that account creation page with a valid address. | 13:26 |
| DonnchaC | Think sci-hub are scripting exproxy access or just using SOCKS? | 13:26 |
| kanzure | well, it doesn't have to be socks, they could be doing many other things too, like a generic https proxy | 13:27 |
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| DonnchaC | Yeah, there's lot of way's they could do it. | 13:28 |
| DonnchaC | They good have got credtials for VPN or SSH tunnel into university and retrieve from there. | 13:29 |
| DonnchaC | I see they are having problems making sure users don't abuse the proxies | 13:30 |
| kanzure | the way i was figuring i would design such a system was with zotero translation-server, and just proxy those requests through some transport layer like https or socks or ssh, possibly while using tor, and only allow those types of requests, instead of other proxy-related traffic. | 13:31 |
| DonnchaC | They seem to have a lot of activity for a RU only site. | 13:31 |
| kanzure | what are you comparing against? i see lots of forums that claim to be this large. again, some of these numbers are probably faked, but i wouldn't be surprised if they are real either.. | 13:31 |
| kanzure | consider the forum-torrent-tracker hybrids in russia.. those are many orders of magnitude larger. | 13:32 |
| DonnchaC | Seems like there is huge demand for a sustainable system for open access | 13:32 |
| kanzure | this isn't open access | 13:32 |
| DonnchaC | radical open access | 13:32 |
| kanzure | yes, it's true that people want to read science and use science. | 13:33 |
| DonnchaC | Okay looks like they are using a paid "anonymous" proxy to access the library proxies | 13:34 |
| DonnchaC | kanzure, you met the site owner in 2010? | 13:36 |
| kanzure | when? what? | 13:40 |
| kanzure | sci-hub? i have never heard of sci-hub before today... i think. | 13:40 |
| heath | jrayhawk: heh, yeah the first was incorrect, but i resubmitted a second time immediately afterward but haven't received a confirmation | 13:42 |
| heath | i can try with a different username if that's the problem now | 13:42 |
| DonnchaC | http://sci-hub.copiny.com/idea/details/id/63034 | 13:42 |
| DonnchaC | Google translate - "Thank you. However, do not think it's paranoia makes sense, but think worth it :) | 13:43 |
| DonnchaC | And this guy - kanzure - I happened to catch a meeting at a conference in 2010) Good news" | 13:43 |
| kanzure | hmmmm | 13:43 |
| kanzure | i don't understand why they are okay with watermarks. that's really surprising. | 13:43 |
| kanzure | also, since i keep track of everyone i have ever talked with, that guy just revealed himself to me, i think | 13:43 |
| kanzure | especially since the list of people i met at conferences in 2010 is pretty short (<500) | 13:44 |
| heath | nmz787: [22:29:45] <heath> nmz787: so what's the status on your project? | 13:44 |
| heath | [22:30:05] <heath> i just finished watching https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b6zpEyDvdRA | 13:44 |
| DonnchaC | :) It's a small world. | 13:44 |
| DonnchaC | Maybe something gets a bit lost in translation | 13:44 |
| kanzure | Александра hmm.. | 13:45 |
| DonnchaC | kirka: Спасибо. Правда, не думаю, что паранойя имеет смысл, но подумать стоит :) | 13:45 |
| DonnchaC | Sorry, what does that mean? | 13:45 |
| kanzure | i think it's Alexander Nikonov | 13:46 |
| kanzure | oh wait, no. | 13:46 |
| kirka | DonnchaC Ок | 13:47 |
| kanzure | kirka: no, DonnchaC is asking for translation help :) | 13:47 |
| nmz787 | heath: which project? i have several | 13:47 |
| kirka | "Thanks, I don;t think that this paranoia is reasonabke, but I'll think about it" | 13:48 |
| kirka | *reasonable | 13:48 |
| nmz787 | heath: ahh you're referring to DNA synth? | 13:48 |
| heath | yeah | 13:48 |
| nmz787 | heath: working on photolithography equipment this week | 13:48 |
| heath | how so? | 13:48 |
| DonnchaC | Okay, that makes more sense. I guess he is not too worried about burning university proxies? | 13:48 |
| heath | which approach, rather | 13:49 |
| nmz787 | heath: once that's working i'll be testing simple microstructures, then simple microchannels with macro fluidic ports attached | 13:49 |
| nmz787 | heath: retrofitting a bluray burner | 13:49 |
| kanzure | it seems to be Alexander Kondrat except i don't have this name in my meetlog.. i have Константин Николаевич (who runs The Bank of Personal Immortality) but that's not Kondrat.. hm. | 13:50 |
| kanzure | Kondrat might be a fake name, of course | 13:51 |
| kanzure | DonnchaC: i'm really surprised that they are okay with watermarks. wow. | 13:51 |
| kirka | kanzure I'm too | 13:52 |
| nmz787 | backwards it's Tardnok | 13:53 |
| kirka | kanzure Either they know something I don't know, or they underestimate 1B$ corp's lawyers | 13:53 |
| kanzure | kirka: yeah, elsevier is a fucking weapons dealer.. | 13:53 |
| kanzure | military | 13:53 |
| heath | nmz787: was afk discussing some other project. that's cool, keep this channel updated, i'm definitely interested | 13:53 |
| DonnchaC | Hopefully they can keep going, it probably helps somewhat that they are in .RU | 13:55 |
| DonnchaC | I'm not sure if they are paying for uni proxys, or just scraping them at the moment | 13:55 |
| DonnchaC | as in finding proxy logins on the net somewhere | 13:56 |
| jrayhawk | heath: Nah, it doesn't actually do anything stateful until the confirmation link is clicked. | 13:56 |
| kanzure | those accounts get locked out quickly (the ones with passwords posted publicly) | 13:56 |
| jrayhawk | asics-blog-post... -02. | 13:56 |
| DonnchaC | Also thanks kirka for the translation | 13:57 |
| kirka | It's easy, don't mind | 13:57 |
| DonnchaC | Got to go | 13:57 |
| kirka | bye | 13:57 |
| jrayhawk | heath: fwiw you can also ssh to newuser@gnusha.org to avoid that confirmation step | 13:58 |
| DonnchaC | Talk to you guys later, hopefully sci-hub can stay successful, and "Alexander" doesn't have too much trouble | 13:58 |
| kanzure | "Александра" | 13:58 |
| DonnchaC | Did google translate that wrong? Sorry, can't really translate names | 13:58 |
| kanzure | it's translated correctly | 13:59 |
| heath | done | 13:59 |
| heath | thanks jrayhawk | 13:59 |
| heath | verified | 14:00 |
| nmz787 | heath: will do | 14:03 |
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| klafka | jrayhawk: thanks for some insight into this | 15:56 |
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| * kirka sleeps | 17:06 | |
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| brownies | btw | 18:52 |
| brownies | what do you wise old biologists think of Soylent? | 18:52 |
| yashgaroth | I just read the guy's post where he forgot sulfur | 18:53 |
| esclepius | russian speakers here? | 18:54 |
| yashgaroth | also I really doubt that buying purified single chemicals will ever be cheaper than food-based food | 18:54 |
| brownies | yeah i saw that post. that is worrying. | 18:54 |
| brownies | yashgaroth: i don't really care about the cost tbh. i'm interested for the sheer convenience. | 18:55 |
| yashgaroth | then just buy a bunch of muscle milk powder and some sugars and olive oil and drink that shit with a multivitamin | 18:55 |
| brownies | really? can i just use Muscle Milk as a meal replacement? | 18:55 |
| yashgaroth | yeah sure whatever | 18:56 |
| brownies | you do sound like a very concerned nutritionist | 18:56 |
| yashgaroth | or buy one of the hundred other liquid meal replacement drinks | 18:56 |
| brownies | but can man survive on meal replacements alone? | 18:56 |
| yashgaroth | by the definition of 'replacement', sure why not | 18:56 |
| * brownies is going to seek a second opinion | 18:57 | |
| yashgaroth | without a full list of soylent's ingredients I can't really make any definite claims on it | 18:57 |
| kanzure | esclepius: yes | 18:58 |
| brownies | eh? don't they post a full list of their ingredients? | 18:59 |
| kanzure | brownies: i would bug jrayhawk about nutrition things instead of yashgaroth | 18:59 |
| brownies | kanzure: yeah good point | 18:59 |
| kanzure | yashgaroth just lives on scraps found in his lab | 18:59 |
| kanzure | jrayhawk might actually cook | 18:59 |
| yashgaroth | there were free bagels last week, I snagged so many | 18:59 |
| brownies | but jrayhawk will probably tell me to hunt my own wooly mammoth and feast on it over the flames of an organic fire | 18:59 |
| brownies | honestly keto would be great if it weren't so inconvenient | 18:59 |
| fenn | the meal replacement drinks tend not to provide 100% rda of everything | 19:00 |
| fenn | i think there are some "medical grade" meal replacement thingies that do, but ensure etc don't provide all electrolytes or vitamins | 19:02 |
| yashgaroth | brownies: I haven't found their list of ingredients yet, aside from snippets of text on his tupperware in videos; I think they're releasing it at some point in the indeterminate future | 19:02 |
| brownies | yeah. i would like to see the full ingredient list for sure. | 19:03 |
| ParahSail1n | i thought he gave one | 19:03 |
| ParahSail1n | lol keto inconvenient | 19:04 |
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| yashgaroth | he has a rather vague list | 19:05 |
| ParahSail1n | what i find inconvenient is being ravenously hungry every four hours and needing to run out somewhere or die | 19:05 |
| brownies | "My mixture now has 409g of carbohydrates, 65g of fat, and 102g of protein." | 19:05 |
| brownies | pretty crazy macro distribution | 19:05 |
| fenn | the vagueness concerns me. also the fact that the entire collective wisdom of the internet has basically nothing useful to contribute | 19:05 |
| brownies | ParahSail1n: eh it's just a lot of work to always be cooking cows and chickens | 19:05 |
| fenn | how about pea protein | 19:07 |
| ParahSail1n | pretty easy to buy cooked meat | 19:07 |
| brownies | but then you have to go stock up every few days, and keep it cold all the time | 19:08 |
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| ParahSail1n | if you're doing more typical diet you still have to buy food... | 19:09 |
| kanzure | brownies pays for all of his meals to be delivered to him by way of uber | 19:10 |
| brownies | i do eat out pretty often. | 19:10 |
| yashgaroth | also the only ones using soylent right now are people who are super jazzed about how it's the future of food blahblah and aren't a controlled study | 19:11 |
| brownies | yeah that is what i find the most worrying. | 19:11 |
| yashgaroth | 'oh I totally have so much energy now' can be an entirely mental phenomenon, and often is | 19:12 |
| brownies | it's all a bunch of amateur kids who are treating it with about the same seriousness as a weekend programming hack | 19:12 |
| brownies | yashgaroth: yeah controlled would be good. i guess double-blind is hard, but controlled would be a good step. | 19:12 |
| yashgaroth | at least just an unbiased group, rather than people who are willing to fork over money and buy in completely | 19:13 |
| brownies | yeah exactly. it seems too soon to go around hawking it as a product that will save the world. | 19:14 |
| jrayhawk | provided there's no insulin resistance, that macro ratio is not particularly scary | 19:20 |
| jrayhawk | bearing in mind that fat and protein have twice the caloric concentration of carbohydrate | 19:21 |
| jrayhawk | various pacific islanders such as the tokelau and the kitavans did just fine on that ratio | 19:21 |
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| jrayhawk | Soylent is one hell of a lot better than what most people eat; it's non-immunogenic and generally a lot more nutrient-complete than your average poptart. The two main criticisms I have for it are poor micronutrient form and overabsorbability. | 19:23 |
| fenn | the oligosaccharides? | 19:25 |
| fenn | re: overabsorbability | 19:25 |
| jrayhawk | Among other nutrients that would otherwise arrive in bulk to feed the gut flora. | 19:26 |
| jrayhawk | It's important to remember that when you're eating, you're eating for one trillion | 19:27 |
| jrayhawk | Eating a bunch of simple sugars, simple peptides, and simple fats, all perfectly dissolved/emulsified in solution means you're probably going to starve most of your gut bacteria | 19:28 |
| jrayhawk | those suckers are responsible for a whole lot of hormonal and immunological modulation | 19:29 |
| jrayhawk | and maintaining protective biofilms | 19:29 |
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| jrayhawk | and w.r.t. micronutrients, he seems rather cavalier about form; mentions e.g. "vitamin k" without saying if it's the cheap lousy one (K1) or the expensive useful one (MK-4) or something inbetween; same thing with "vitamin D" (d2 vs d3), and with B12 (cyano- vs methyl-), and EFAs (LA and ALA vs AA and DHA) and folate (folic acid vs any tetrahydrofolate) and minerals (phytate-bound or chelated) etc. etc. etc. | 19:44 |
| jrayhawk | and some crap like calcium is disastrous to bolus-dose | 19:44 |
| kanzure | is there any legitimate reason he would be lax on specifying that? it seems like if he was aware of the importance then he would be more explicit about his choices. | 19:44 |
| jrayhawk | he seemed to care more about economy than efficacy | 19:45 |
| jrayhawk | he actually seemed downright excited about the prospect of becoming a walking billboard for novel forms of vitamin deficiency. | 19:45 |
| jrayhawk | if he actually cared about nutrient form, most soylent would become much less economical than real food | 19:46 |
| jrayhawk | and yes, he definitely forgot the essential wooly mammoth supplementation | 19:48 |
| fenn | supplements are very nutrient-dense (obviously) so you can make a lot of "food" with a small number of pills | 19:48 |
| fenn | so even though the supplements are expensive it doesn't mean that it will cost more than food | 19:49 |
| jrayhawk | I dunno, I can buy one hell of a lot of fish for the cost of a single bottle of fermented cod liver oil or algal DHA | 19:50 |
| jrayhawk | and the fish comes packaged with antioxidants and relatively inert and opaque tissues | 19:51 |
| fenn | hm. i just bought 360 count 1.2gram fish oil capsules at the grocery store for $15 | 19:51 |
| kanzure | http://biohackyourself.com/quantified-self-europe-2013/ (a report, not an announcement) | 19:51 |
| fenn | let's also assume pea protein costs $20/kg | 19:52 |
| jrayhawk | isolated, esterified, heat treated | 19:52 |
| fenn | what sort of fish | 19:53 |
| jrayhawk | not so good for efficacy | 19:53 |
| fenn | not esterified, it's just fish oil | 19:53 |
| fenn | i know a dead fish contains more than just protein and fish oil, but lets do the math | 19:54 |
| jrayhawk | http://www.ascentahealth.com/health-science/science-articles/fish-oil-triglycerides-vs-ethyl-esters-as-nature-intended | 19:54 |
| fenn | yes i know about that issue and it's irrelevant, these aren't esterified | 19:55 |
| jrayhawk | how can you tell? | 19:55 |
| fenn | because it says "fish oil" | 19:55 |
| fenn | not "fish oil concentrate" or "ultra mega fish kablammo" | 19:55 |
| jrayhawk | "fish oil" is not regulated in that way | 19:56 |
| fenn | they have no incentive to purify a product and then dilute it | 19:57 |
| jrayhawk | except to advertise higher DHA and EPA doseages | 19:58 |
| jrayhawk | wait, dilute it? | 19:58 |
| jrayhawk | where does the dilution occur? | 19:59 |
| jrayhawk | or, rather, what would imply dilution? | 19:59 |
| fenn | the label says "each 1.2 gram capsule contains: 360mg omega-3 fatty acids DHA *** EPA ***" (they didnt bother to measure them individually) | 19:59 |
| fenn | the esterified products are nearly 100% omega-3 | 19:59 |
| fenn | but fish oil is 50-80% saturated fat | 20:00 |
| jrayhawk | alright, i will take back "esterified" | 20:01 |
| fenn | so anyway, the cheapest fish i can contemplate eating regularly is canned mackerel, at $1.68 per 300g drained mass | 20:01 |
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| fenn | it's usually more like $3 but whatever | 20:02 |
| jrayhawk | that is a terrifyingly low price, but i suppose mackerel is kinda gross anyway | 20:02 |
| fenn | according to the USDA, 300g drained canned mackerel contains 70g protein, 4.4g omega-3 fat | 20:04 |
| jrayhawk | what sort of multiplier we should put on oxidation potential | 20:04 |
| fenn | unsure, the canned mackerel smells much fishier than the capsules | 20:04 |
| jrayhawk | haha, yeah, i always have wondered about that | 20:05 |
| jrayhawk | if mackerel is just an especially stressed class of fish | 20:05 |
| fenn | i assumed it was from the heat of the canning process | 20:05 |
| jrayhawk | even fresh mackerel tastes kinda spoiled | 20:06 |
| jrayhawk | canned fish i am just not capable of eating | 20:06 |
| fenn | btw mackerel is especially high in oils, which is the whole point of this exercise | 20:06 |
| jrayhawk | yeah, it's also amazingly cheap as far as the fatty fish go | 20:06 |
| jrayhawk | usually fatty fish are prized | 20:06 |
| ParahSail1n | well, chemically defined diets are the way people discover new vital nutrients | 20:08 |
| ParahSail1n | so theres a chance useful data will come out of this soylent craze | 20:08 |
| fenn | so to make the same quantity of industrial fish concentrate we'd need $0.14 worth of fish oil and $1.40 worth of pea protein | 20:08 |
| fenn | my pea protein price was somewhat arbitrary, i should have checked | 20:09 |
| ParahSail1n | why pea as opposed to soy? | 20:09 |
| fenn | because soy lied to me and broke my heart | 20:09 |
| jrayhawk | haha | 20:10 |
| fenn | eh pea protein is $18/kg so it's about right | 20:10 |
| fenn | so in summary, canned fish is an affordable source of protein, but an expensive source of DHA and EPA | 20:11 |
| jrayhawk | http://www.westonaprice.org/vitamins-and-minerals/beyond-good-and-evil and of course protein profiles matter | 20:13 |
| fenn | of course | 20:13 |
| fenn | there's also rice protein | 20:13 |
| fenn | the gSH bonds in whey/eggs is another interesting thing to think about | 20:15 |
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| jrayhawk | oh yeah, have you seen any studies demonstrating efficacy of direct GSH supplementation vs. precursors? | 20:19 |
| jrayhawk | in humans, that is | 20:19 |
| jrayhawk | not rodents | 20:19 |
| fenn | realistically speaking though, there's no way i could eat 70g of pea protein in a single sitting, whereas i could certainly eat 70g of whey, and 300g of mackerel is no problem | 20:19 |
| jrayhawk | i dunno, if you put it in a drink with 60% glucose... | 20:19 |
| fenn | is the glucose supposed to make me feel less full? | 20:20 |
| fenn | the problem with pea protein is it's "heavy" | 20:20 |
| jrayhawk | appropriate ratios of fat/salt/sugar do alter ghrelin signaling, yeah. | 20:20 |
| ParahSail1n | isnt bean protein, like, pure trypsin inhibitor? do they denature pea protein in some way? | 20:21 |
| jrayhawk | IIRC pea is fairly innocuous as legumes go | 20:21 |
| fenn | so i'd like to point out that sugar is 50% fructose | 20:21 |
| jrayhawk | Yeah, fructose has some other downstream effects, but I mean just the taste alone. | 20:21 |
| jrayhawk | Those food-palatability-and-reward researchers Taubes hates so much occasionally do interesting things! | 20:22 |
| fenn | um, so adding glucose to protein reduces satiety? | 20:22 |
| ParahSail1n | paperbot, http://jxb.oxfordjournals.org/content/44/4/701.full.pdf | 20:23 |
| paperbot | http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/paperbot/75b736657bb9caa0bbbb55d67ad07ab.txt | 20:23 |
| jrayhawk | and fat and salt, presumably | 20:23 |
| fenn | i think fat increases satiety | 20:23 |
| fenn | dunno about salt | 20:23 |
| jrayhawk | in isolation, yeah. | 20:23 |
| fenn | so is there like a macronutrient satiety matrix i can use to figure this all out? | 20:24 |
| ParahSail1n | paperbot, http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/001457939500070P | 20:24 |
| paperbot | no translator available, raw dump: http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/paperbot/Multiple%20isoforms%20of%20.pdf | 20:24 |
| kanzure | 05:47 < heath> 404: http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/bio/books/Molecular%20Biology%20of%20the%20Gene%20-%202006.pdf | 20:26 |
| kanzure | 05:47 < heath> linked from http://diyhpl.us/wiki/diybio/faq/books/ | 20:26 |
| kanzure | heath: you can update that link yourself, you know | 20:26 |
| jrayhawk | that was immediately before he tried signing up | 20:26 |
| jrayhawk | so presumably he's trying | 20:27 |
| ParahSail1n | paperbot, http://journals.cambridge.org/action/displayAbstract?fromPage=online&aid=1351908 | 20:27 |
| paperbot | error: HTTP 500 http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/paperbot/6db54961be0db629cf79fb4cc2abdd0a.txt | 20:27 |
| kanzure | jrayhawk: i didn't receive an email about that afaik | 20:27 |
| jrayhawk | oh, that's odd. i'll go take a look. | 20:27 |
| kanzure | but you did? | 20:28 |
| heath | i'll continue trying and actually do it later :) | 20:28 |
| kanzure | ssh newuser@diyhpl.us | 20:28 |
| jrayhawk | May 21 13:58:33 bryan sudo: newuser : TTY=pts/34 ; PWD=/var/empty ; USER=root ; COMMAND=/usr/sbin/newuser | 20:28 |
| jrayhawk | May 21 13:58:33 bryan sudo: pam_unix(sudo:session): session opened for user root by newuser(uid=136) | 20:28 |
| jrayhawk | May 21 13:59:09 bryan useradd[9098]: new user: name=heath, UID=1049, GID=100, home=/home/heath, shell=/usr/bin/pinyshell | 20:28 |
| kanzure | git clone heath@diyhpl.us:/srv/git/diyhpluswiki.git | 20:28 |
| kanzure | make your changes then git push origin master | 20:28 |
| jrayhawk | 2013-05-21 13:59:15 1UeteM-0002Mj-Bf <= root@bryan.svcs.cs.pdx.edu H=(bryan.svcs.cs.pdx.edu) [131.252.130.248] P=smtp S=639 id=1369169949.302076.9094.nullmailer@bryan.svcs.cs.pdx.edu | 20:29 |
| jrayhawk | 2013-05-21 13:59:18 1UeteM-0002Mj-Bf => kanzure@gmail.com R=router_smtp T=transport_smtp H=mailhost.cecs.pdx.edu [131.252.208.110] X=TLS1.0:RSA_AES_256_CBC_SHA1:32 | 20:29 |
| jrayhawk | 2013-05-21 13:59:18 1UeteM-0002Mj-Bf Completed | 20:30 |
| kanzure | what does "Completed" mean. | 20:30 |
| fenn | ug all this weston price stuff makes me sad | 20:30 |
| kanzure | "it means not my problem" narf | 20:30 |
| jrayhawk | that means the delivery to my smarthost was successful, at least | 20:30 |
| kanzure | yeah i see nothing new from root@bryan.svcs.cs.pdx.edu (and wasn't marked as spam) | 20:31 |
| jrayhawk | paperbot: http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0091302212000039 | 20:33 |
| paperbot | no translator available, raw dump: http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/paperbot/Feed-forward%20mechanisms%3A%20Addiction-like%20behavioral%20and%20molecular%20adaptations%20in%20overeating.txt | 20:33 |
| kanzure | no access :| | 20:33 |
| kanzure | i recommend trying http://sci-hub.org/ | 20:34 |
| ParahSail1n | yeah im gonna do the cool russian version of paperbot | 20:34 |
| jrayhawk | paperbot: http://jcem.endojournals.org/content/97/3/745.short | 20:34 |
| paperbot | http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/paperbot/Regulation%20of%20Food%20Intake%2C%20Energy%20Balance%2C%20and%20Body%20Fat%20Mass%3A%20Implications%20for%20the%20Pathogenesis%20and%20Treatment%20of%20Obesity.pdf | 20:34 |
| kanzure | ParahSail1n: please. i'd like to use it as a fall-back or something in paperbot. | 20:35 |
| ParahSail1n | whys everything go to kremlin | 20:35 |
| kanzure | because they hate your ip address | 20:35 |
| kanzure | it's funny because the biggest publishers actually aren't in the us. elsevier and springer are both from europe. | 20:36 |
| ParahSail1n | whose ip works with sci-hub | 20:36 |
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| jrayhawk | ugh, food palatability researchers use so many rodent models | 20:38 |
| kanzure | route your traffic through 91.202.165.73:8080 | 20:38 |
| jrayhawk | fenn: sorry, i can't find a quick summary of the satiety situation due to rats and mice eating my sanity | 20:39 |
| fenn | *squee* | 20:39 |
| jrayhawk | sites 39-47 on that guyenet paper are at least a start | 20:40 |
| kanzure | narf | 20:40 |
| * fenn mumbles something about fugly url codes | 20:40 | |
| ParahSail1n | manually brute forcing the proxies on the sci-hub is mildly inconvenient | 20:42 |
| ParahSail1n | weird, either sci-hub uploaded it here automatically or they just found the paper mirrored http://pdf.highwire.org/stamped/jexbot/44/4/701.full.pdf | 20:44 |
| fenn | sardine oil is 30% monounsaturated, 30% saturated, 30% polyunsaturated (6% mystery) | 20:46 |
| ParahSail1n | cholesterol | 20:47 |
| fenn | not enough to account for the 300mg discrepancy | 20:47 |
| kanzure | ParahSail1n: highwire.org is a publisher. they offer some paid fee structure for journals. sort of a "self-publish" platform of one sort or another. | 20:53 |
| kanzure | ParahSail1n: if 91.202.165.73:8080 doesn't work then let me know and i can dig up something better | 20:55 |
| ParahSail1n | that proxy worked, thanks | 20:55 |
| kanzure | ok cool. | 20:55 |
| jrayhawk | 10% delicious radicals | 20:56 |
| fenn | radicals are a root vegetable | 20:57 |
| ParahSail1n | 木 tree radical | 20:57 |
| fenn | 本 root radical | 20:57 |
| ParahSail1n | im not sure thats a one | 20:58 |
| fenn | 隹 turkey radical | 21:03 |
| kanzure | javascript is so broken :( | 21:05 |
| kanzure | https://groups.google.com/forum/?fromgroups#!topic/phantomjs/1qRimpzdG3U | 21:05 |
| ParahSail1n | lol | 21:06 |
| fenn | did google groups always have an exclamation point in the url? | 21:08 |
| brownies | isn't it one of those #! URLs? | 21:08 |
| kanzure | fenn: no, this is google groups since 2011 or 2012 | 21:10 |
| kanzure | fenn: this version of google groups blows.. | 21:10 |
| fenn | hey, some people like having only 25% of their screen showing content | 21:11 |
| kanzure | but in particular, i was expressing infuriation about phantomjs | 21:11 |
| kanzure | the new google groups url structure is really quite evil | 21:11 |
| brownies | fenn: i've always felt that google needed more persistent top navbars... just a big fat stack of 'em | 21:11 |
| kanzure | brownies: perhaps they should enlist bonzai buddy and get over with it. | 21:11 |
| fenn | what we really need is a purple talking google car to drive you around the information superhighway | 21:12 |
| kanzure | they really botched the google groups product up | 21:16 |
| kanzure | i wonder what they are going to do with their usenet archives. are they just going to delete everything? | 21:16 |
| fenn | they'll put them with the digitized book archives | 21:16 |
| fenn | how big is it anyway? | 21:17 |
| kanzure | well henry spencer had basically everything back to 1979 (for some reason) | 21:18 |
| kanzure | and google just acquired the archives from him | 21:18 |
| kanzure | he is very responsive by email... Henry Spencer <henry@zoo.utoronto.ca> | 21:19 |
| fenn | i've seen that name before | 21:19 |
| brownies | when you say "acquired," what do you mean exactly? | 21:19 |
| kanzure | i mean they asked him and he was like "here you go" | 21:19 |
| brownies | oh ok | 21:19 |
| brownies | so he still has them | 21:19 |
| kanzure | you've seen his name because he emails with john carmack and friends for rocket reasons | 21:20 |
| brownies | ...presumably. | 21:20 |
| brownies | i've never seen his name =/ | 21:20 |
| fenn | must be from the space usenet archives | 21:20 |
| fenn | http://yarchive.net/space/ | 21:20 |
| kanzure | or http://www.blastzone.com/arocket | 21:20 |
| kanzure | http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Henry_Spencer "Henry Spencer is a Canadian computer programmer and space enthusiast. He wrote "regex", a widely-used software library for regular expressions, and co-wrote C News, a Usenet server program. He also wrote The Ten Commandments for C Programmers.[1] He is coauthor, with David Lawrence, of the book Managing Usenet.[2] While working at the University of Toronto he ran the first active Usenet site outside ... | 21:22 |
| kanzure | ... the U.S., starting in 1981. His records from that period were eventually acquired by Google to provide an archive of Usenet in the 1980s." | 21:22 |
| kanzure | "The small size of Usenet in its youthful days, and Spencer's early involvement, made him a well-recognised participant; this is commemorated in Vernor Vinge's 1992 novel A Fire Upon the Deep. " | 21:22 |
| kanzure | well fuck that why the fuck aren't i commemorated in a fire upon the deep | 21:22 |
| kanzure | "oh hush bryan you haven't even read it" | 21:23 |
| brownies | better email Vernor Vinge | 21:23 |
| brownies | "hey bro what the fuck" | 21:23 |
| kanzure | "he novel featured an interstellar communications medium remarkably similar to Usenet, down to the author including spurious message headers; one of the characters who appeared solely through postings to this was modeled on Spencer (and, slightly obliquely, named for him)." | 21:23 |
| kanzure | "He is also credited with the claim that "Those who do not understand Unix are condemned to reinvent it, poorly."[3]" | 21:23 |
| kanzure | "Between 1981 and 1991, while running the zoology department's computer system at the University of Toronto, Spencer copied more than 2 million Usenet messages onto magnetic tapes. The 141 tapes wound up at the University of Western Ontario, where Google's Michael Schmidt tracked them down and, with the help of David Wiseman and others,[4] got them transferred onto disks and into Google's archives.[5]" | 21:24 |
| kanzure | "He also wrote 'aaa' - the Amazing Awk Assembler which is one of the longest and most complex programs ever written in the awk programming language." ok so he is clinically crazy | 21:24 |
| kanzure | "He is a highly regarded space enthusiast, and is a familiar and respected presence on several space forums on Usenet and the Internet. From 1983 to 2007 Spencer posted over 34,000 messages to the sci.space.* newsgroups. His knowledge of space history and technology is such that the "I Corrected Henry Spencer" virtual T-shirt award was created as a reward for anyone who can catch him in an error of fact." | 21:24 |
| fenn | kanzure: http://twirlip.net/ see anything familiar there? | 21:25 |
| heath | I'm at 96% of Gpacity, guess it's time to leave | 21:25 |
| heath | Gmail's capacity | 21:25 |
| kanzure | heath: pay for storage space. you know you want to. | 21:25 |
| ParahSail1n | store stuff on flickr | 21:25 |
| kanzure | fenn: yeah a little, something about blighter. | 21:25 |
| brownies | how much data is 141 tapes? | 21:26 |
| kanzure | oh this is paul fernhout | 21:26 |
| brownies | did google transfer them onto disks or did he? | 21:26 |
| kanzure | pointrel should have been more immediately obvious | 21:26 |
| * brownies grumbles at the vagueness | 21:26 | |
| kanzure | i like how it says "with the help of David Wiseman and others" | 21:27 |
| kanzure | because transfering data from tape is a huge project | 21:27 |
| kanzure | involving multiple Official Google Engineers | 21:27 |
| kanzure | why would they transfer them to disks anyway.. what year was this, 1995? | 21:28 |
| kanzure | ParahSail1n: https://github.com/ricardobeat/filr | 21:29 |
| fenn | storing crap in a metadata field of an image seems like a brutal hack | 21:31 |
| kanzure | well the metadata is supposed to stay put, right? | 21:32 |
| fenn | i mean, it's easier to check for than trying to find noise in images | 21:32 |
| kanzure | it would be handy if you could force people to couple metadata with data by making the two parts useless without each other | 21:32 |
| fenn | flickr could arbitrarily set a limit on image metadata size, or just fuck with you somehow | 21:33 |
| kanzure | oh it's not storing in pixel data? | 21:33 |
| kanzure | guess i should look next time | 21:33 |
| fenn | it's interesting how the images dont look totally random | 21:34 |
| fenn | uh, talking about http://www.nihilogic.dk/labs/canvascompress/ | 21:34 |
| kanzure | http://search.cpan.org/dist/Net-FS-Flickr/ "Stores versioned files by encoding them in the lower order bits of PNGs in a Flickr set." | 21:34 |
| kanzure | example: http://www.flickr.com/photos/simonwistow/sets/72057594097765821/ | 21:34 |
| kanzure | wow you have to fucking sign in now? | 21:34 |
| fenn | looks like he marked that non-public | 21:34 |
| kanzure | "Your kanzure Yahoo! ID uses the email address kanzure@gmail.com. That email address is already associated with the kanzure account on Flickr." | 21:36 |
| kanzure | "If you are trying to create a new Flickr account for your kanzure Yahoo! ID, you need to either: Remove the kanzure@gmail.com email address from your kanzure Flickr account. (You'll need to sign in to Flickr with your cm007x2 Yahoo! ID to do this.) Or,Change the primary email address for your kanzure Yahoo! ID. (Your kanzure Yahoo! preferences.)" | 21:36 |
| kanzure | who the hell is cm007x2 | 21:36 |
| kanzure | "If you are trying to access your kanzure Flickr account, please sign in to Yahoo! again with your cm007x2 Yahoo! ID." | 21:36 |
| fenn | it's yahoo's secret spy agent | 21:36 |
| fenn | cock mongler double oh seven (twin) | 21:37 |
| kanzure | "Oops! You don't have permission to view this page." i guess i should have trusted you, huh. | 21:37 |
| kanzure | no way man it stood for codemaster | 21:38 |
| kanzure | i was a game hax0r, remember? | 21:38 |
| kanzure | gah i can never figure out how to view source code while on cpan.org | 21:39 |
| kanzure | oh wait here it is http://cpansearch.perl.org/src/SIMONW/Net-FS-Flickr-0.1/ | 21:39 |
| kanzure | http://cpansearch.perl.org/src/SIMONW/Net-FS-Flickr-0.1/lib/Net/FS/Flickr/Access.pm | 21:39 |
| kanzure | i sort of doubt the same api works | 21:40 |
| heath | send Erik Winfree et. al. a message, i'm sure they'd to hear from you: 131.215.135.107 | 21:40 |
| heath | problems? try this one: 131.215.135.13 | 21:41 |
| kanzure | "Access Denied. Your IP Address cannot access this device." | 21:41 |
| heath | grabbed from http://dna.caltech.edu/wikis/dnawiki/index.php/Printer_Info | 21:42 |
| kanzure | why are you obsessing over a researcher i was infringing on 5 years ago? | 21:43 |
| fenn | i think the idea is to send them DNA sequences via fax machine, right heath? | 21:43 |
| heath | :) | 21:44 |
| fenn | you can encode arbitrary computations as DNA tiles. the rest is left up to the student as an exercise | 21:44 |
| * heath reads http://heybryan.org/winfree.html | 21:44 | |
| heath | s/reads/rereads | 21:45 |
| kanzure | you might be interested in the resulting paper: | 21:45 |
| kanzure | http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/ellington/Modelling%20amorphous%20computations%20with%20transcription%20networks%20-%202009.pdf | 21:45 |
| kanzure | (naturally i was not included as a coauthor but whatever, they will not survive the resulting metalocalypse) | 21:46 |
| kanzure | wtf i knew vhdl93 in 2008? | 21:48 |
| heath | kanzure: i don't understand how you were infringing on the Winfree? | 21:48 |
| kanzure | the origins of that paper began with copying some of his work, sorta | 21:49 |
| kanzure | "replicating" | 21:49 |
| heath | s/\?/\. #grr at typing when Webkit is compiling | 21:49 |
| kanzure | "Recently, engineered nucleic acid logic switches based on hybridization and conformational changes have been successfully demonstrated in vivo (15,16)." | 21:50 |
| kanzure | anyway, the problem with most of thsi is that it's a fun novelty but there aren't that many problems worth trying with rna or dna computing | 21:51 |
| kanzure | *this | 21:51 |
| kanzure | not even a SAT solver is worth it really | 21:51 |
| heath | poop | 21:51 |
| fenn | it is worth thinking about, there's avogadro's number computational units in a bucket of DNA | 21:51 |
| fenn | the problem is the atrocious crosstalk and low signal to noise ratio | 21:52 |
| fenn | we dont know how to design problems to work with that system | 21:52 |
| fenn | i dont like the whole transcriptional logic idea though, it's trying to draw an analogy where there really isnt one | 21:53 |
| fenn | a loop of dna being extended is not equivalent to a circuit with a voltage | 21:54 |
| kanzure | i'm not exactly willing to reload this stuff into working memory at the moment | 21:55 |
| kanzure | i am experiencing enough existential anxiety with javascript on my own thank you very much | 21:55 |
| fenn | well you dont have to think about it right now | 21:56 |
| fenn | time to prune some neurons... /me sleeps | 22:00 |
| kanzure | gha "onShouldInterruptJs" | 22:00 |
| kanzure | "onShouldJustFuckingWorkForOnce" | 22:00 |
| kanzure | *gah | 22:00 |
| jrayhawk | fenn: what was making you sad about that WAPF thing | 22:02 |
| kanzure | 13:59 < Speedstick> also does kanzure = Ariya? | 22:04 |
| kanzure | 14:04 < Speedstick> so kansure is the creator of phantomjs? | 22:04 |
| kanzure | 14:04 < Speedstick> kanzure rather | 22:04 |
| kanzure | why would i ever do such a thing | 22:04 |
| brownies | do you see what happens when you write this much JS | 22:06 |
| brownies | soon you and the interpreter will become one | 22:07 |
| brownies | or maybe you'll tell me one of these days "hey meteor is actually a really good idea" | 22:07 |
| jrayhawk | does that mean kanzure will be stymied by http redirects | 22:07 |
| brownies | ohai jrayhawk | 22:07 |
| brownies | i think he is *already* stymied by http redirects ;) | 22:08 |
| kanzure | i have turned to expressing my rage in other ways http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dbo6Xvh0kZ4&list=PLgO7JBj821uGNUiLT2hIuKHLywYiQdgzF | 22:08 |
| kanzure | btw here's the fucking http 302 redirect workaround https://gist.github.com/amenzhinsky/5245915 | 22:10 |
| nmz787 | i had a workaround for 302s when i was using plupload | 22:12 |
| nmz787 | where did google cache links go? | 22:13 |
| kanzure | google no longer believes in showing you cache links | 22:13 |
| kanzure | google scholar still shows cache links and you can type in other urls to try to get a cache for a non-academic page, but it doesn't always work | 22:14 |
| jrayhawk | wait what | 22:14 |
| kanzure | and you end up on googlewebcache.com or something | 22:14 |
| jrayhawk | cache:farts.com still works fine | 22:14 |
| kanzure | never works for me | 22:14 |
| kanzure | remember that google runs experiments on its users and some populations have features enabled while others don't | 22:15 |
| nmz787 | cache: doesn't help | 22:16 |
| jrayhawk | also sometimes caches get invalidated while indexes and content previews for those indexes stay around; not sure why | 22:16 |
| jrayhawk | but that's been true for most of google's history | 22:16 |
| kanzure | caches have always been dodgey for me | 22:16 |
| kanzure | i see people posting coral cache links, and those tend to always work | 22:16 |
| kanzure | sometimes people post a google cache link and those work, but i never have any idea how to predict whether or not google will allow you to see a cached version.. | 22:17 |
| kanzure | brownies: http://www.ryanbridges.org/2013/05/21/putting-the-flash-back-in-phantomjs/ | 22:17 |
| ParahSail1n | if you see the down arrow in search, there's usually a cache | 22:18 |
| kanzure | the down arrow! why didn't i think of that. | 22:18 |
| kanzure | what happened to just having a green 'Cached' link below the result? :( | 22:18 |
| nmz787 | i'm looking for this | 22:18 |
| nmz787 | http://www.rjmcnamara.com/lego-minstorms/java-lego-mindstorms-nxt/ | 22:18 |
| ParahSail1n | google has twice made the cache harder to find | 22:19 |
| ParahSail1n | used to be the >> arrow that you had to press | 22:19 |
| nmz787 | the down arrow only says share | 22:19 |
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| kanzure | nmz787: http://web.archive.org/web/*/http://www.rjmcnamara.com/lego-minstorms/java-lego-mindstorms-nxt/ | 22:19 |
| kanzure | http://web.archive.org/web/20120724222211/http://www.rjmcnamara.com/lego-minstorms/ | 22:20 |
| kanzure | i thought it was mindstorms | 22:21 |
| kanzure | not minstorms.. | 22:21 |
| nmz787 | yeah | 22:21 |
| nmz787 | the cached link doesn't work you gave | 22:21 |
| nmz787 | i guess they got it too late | 22:21 |
| kanzure | it seems to be accurate to me | 22:21 |
| nmz787 | just says page suspended | 22:21 |
| kanzure | yeah | 22:21 |
| kanzure | archive.org got that | 22:21 |
| ParahSail1n | whats a cheap brazing alloy for ferrous-copper bonding | 22:23 |
| brownies | that's fucked up | 22:25 |
| brownies | why is google making itself less useful =( | 22:25 |
| brownies | kanzure: see, that kind of code just hurts my brain. and not in a good way. | 22:26 |
| kanzure | i have no idea how substack is able to operate | 22:26 |
| kanzure | in a past life he was writing haskell so it is possible that he is brain damaged | 22:26 |
| brownies | perhaps he wrote a haskell-to-js compiler and he's still just writing haskell | 22:27 |
| brownies | that would explain some things. | 22:27 |
| kanzure | brownies: that guy that i paired with didn't know that "not" was valid in coffeescript | 22:27 |
| brownies | kanzure: =( | 22:28 |
| brownies | in fairness, i do have to open coffeescript.org whenever i spend any serious time writing it | 22:28 |
| nmz787 | leads me to believe google will start doing/aiding shady activities | 22:31 |
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| nmz787 | i'm kinda glad apple got caught by the IRS or whatever | 22:31 |
| yashgaroth | start? | 22:31 |
| heath | [23:52:07] <fenn> the problem is the atrocious crosstalk and low signal to noise ratio | 22:42 |
| heath | crosstalk? | 22:42 |
| heath | Darkfall - Kill The Need, thanks kanz | 22:44 |
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| kanzure | i think we are missing 10 people. | 23:42 |
| kanzure | are we still in the middle of a netsplit? | 23:42 |
| -!- kmo is now known as kajetan | 23:43 | |
| lichen | ive been having problems connecting to freenode for several days | 23:51 |
| lichen | others might be having issues as well? | 23:51 |
| --- Log closed Wed May 22 00:00:34 2013 | ||
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