| --- Log opened Sun Jul 14 00:00:25 2013 | ||
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| jonathan_ | kanzure: lets record a voice over for the carlsbad lab video | 01:29 |
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| archels | haha. <Marvin Minsky> There's now an interesting movement to spend a billion dollars making a map of the nervous system <interviewer> Dr Henry Markram's... <Minsky> Whatever it is, there's several of them... | 03:47 |
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| archels | billion dollar projects all aroudn | 03:48 |
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| archels | man, GitHub's new pull request/compare interface is complete shite | 05:11 |
| archels | not only is it buggy, it also costs a dozen more mouseclicks than before to file a PR | 05:12 |
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| @kanzure | jonathan_: there's a few sites where you can cheaply pay for voice overs. unless, uh, you specifically wanted my voice? | 07:33 |
| @kanzure | jonathan_: we could do it in the style of mystery science theater 3000. | 07:34 |
| gradstudentbot | God, why won't they just kick me out. | 07:34 |
| Viper168 | do it like morgan freeman | 07:40 |
| ParahSail1n | that homeless guy from columbus OH would do a pretty good voiceover | 07:48 |
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| @kanzure | paperbot: http://dx.doi.org/10.1126/science.1233158 | 07:52 |
| paperbot | http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/paperbot/ed2dfe3acb9a53a87407e07acccdea94.txt | 07:52 |
| @kanzure | damn you, science! | 07:52 |
| archels | Experiments performed in Italy? Didn't expect they would be able to get approval for this. | 08:16 |
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| yashgaroth | jonathan_ | 08:52 |
| yashgaroth | that's not really surprising since they did it ex vivo | 08:52 |
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| jonathan_ | kanzure: i was thinking to get max & you on a conf call and then have a little discussion about diybio as a lab etc, that will be the voice over, which I will heavily edit to leave impressive parts. not slap stick stuff. whatever you've always wanted to say about doing bio. | 10:03 |
| @kanzure | sounds a little boring. | 10:04 |
| @kanzure | uh. i guess i could be convinced. | 10:04 |
| yashgaroth | I'm ambiguous | 10:05 |
| @kanzure | bkero: can you explain xulrunner to me? how does it use xpcom? | 10:13 |
| @kanzure | oh gross it's an xul runtime environment | 10:13 |
| @bkero | Seems like you answered your own question. :) | 10:19 |
| @kanzure | i think it's crazy that mozilla has stopped maintaining the xpcom bindings. that seems like shooting yourself in the foot. | 10:20 |
| jonathan_ | ambiguous? | 10:26 |
| jonathan_ | do you mean ambivalent lol | 10:26 |
| jonathan_ | or do you mean to say you will confuse all the viewers ha | 10:26 |
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| jonathan_ | i have been taking biotin to see if it does anything. no apparent difference so far. | 10:37 |
| yashgaroth | probably both, honestly | 10:41 |
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| jonathan_ | oh no joejack "'Muscle power truths' revealed" http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-23238424 | 10:59 |
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| @kanzure | paperbot: http://rspb.royalsocietypublishing.org/content/280/1766/20130697.full | 11:01 |
| paperbot | http://pdf.highwire.org/stamped/royprsb/280/1766/20130697.full.pdf | 11:01 |
| gradstudentbot | Can I get my own desk? | 11:03 |
| * brownies pokes gradstudentbot | 11:06 | |
| gradstudentbot | Why aren't you doing science right now? | 11:06 |
| * kanzure pokes gradstudentbot too | 11:17 | |
| gradstudentbot | Wow, at my old school, I was never allowed this much science. | 11:17 |
| @kanzure | after creating the ultimate bot there's just not that much left to do in life | 11:18 |
| jonathan_ | there's always royalties to collect. | 11:20 |
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| @kanzure | JSObjectMakeConstruct can be passed a reference to a function but JSObjectMakeFunction can only be passed a js string. argh. | 11:56 |
| @kanzure | oops, i mean JSObjectMakeConstructor | 11:56 |
| @kanzure | oh JSObjectMakeConstructor takes a JSObjectCallAsConstructorCallback called callAsConstructor | 11:57 |
| @kanzure | and now i see that JSObjectMakeFunctionWithCallback takes a JSObjectCallAsFunctionCallback called callAsFunction.. so i guess that's equivalent. just not where i expected it to be. | 11:58 |
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| @kanzure | jonathan_: i dunno if that fundraiser idea is gonna work | 12:24 |
| @kanzure | jonathan_: but you should get those email addresses assembled into a list today (or sooner) and start using mailchimp | 12:24 |
| jonathan_ | i'm not trying to raise funding for the group. in fact i am keeping my distance. | 12:25 |
| jonathan_ | the attendee list is nothing.. I am talking about global audience not these few local visitors | 12:26 |
| @kanzure | 400 email addresses is a good start | 12:26 |
| @kanzure | 1% ctr ~ 4 people. that's better than nothing. | 12:26 |
| jonathan_ | the entire city is behind the launch | 12:28 |
| jonathan_ | let them handle that paperwork exercise | 12:28 |
| jonathan_ | i.e. the mayor of the city will have more influence on the real life public | 12:29 |
| jonathan_ | I'm thinking of the different audience that these guys won't reach, the online audience | 12:29 |
| jonathan_ | the city has several marketing girls whose job it is to scheme ways to promote the project | 12:31 |
| @kanzure | i doubt that random marketing employees will be aware of the exact niches on the web to target | 12:31 |
| @kanzure | everyone and their mom says "oh we'll just advertise on reddit/4chan/whatever". yawn.. | 12:31 |
| jonathan_ | exactly - well, they aren't doing that. they are going to locals i.e. wealthy taxpayers and politicos | 12:31 |
| @kanzure | "oh we will get jojack to do an AMA on reddit!!!11oneone" god i hate this world | 12:32 |
| jonathan_ | no, he won't | 12:32 |
| @kanzure | anyway, makezine and boingboing used to be okay traffic sources for this sort of thing | 12:32 |
| jonathan_ | there is separation of the "biz" world and the hacker world, they don't mix | 12:32 |
| @kanzure | he wont do an AMA on reddit? | 12:33 |
| jonathan_ | I dunno but I doubt it would be popular anyway | 12:33 |
| @kanzure | that's how you get the clueless nerd demographic to get excited | 12:33 |
| jonathan_ | that has to be a grassroots effort. i.e. from the hackers for the hackers | 12:33 |
| @kanzure | bullshit. the hackers hate your business model. | 12:33 |
| jonathan_ | otherwise it's just fake verbage | 12:33 |
| @kanzure | what are you going to do, spam discuss@lists.hackerspaces.org ? they're all poor. | 12:34 |
| @kanzure | and only about ~500 anyway | 12:34 |
| jonathan_ | i think you are making assumptions, so, dont do that | 12:34 |
| @kanzure | i've known them for a while now. is my information worng? | 12:34 |
| @kanzure | wrong. | 12:34 |
| @kanzure | not worng | 12:34 |
| jonathan_ | i am not trying to raise money. | 12:34 |
| @kanzure | then what do you want to do? | 12:35 |
| gradstudentbot | Sorry, I can't really talk right now because I'm burried in grant writing. | 12:35 |
| jonathan_ | the real money will come from real channels and boring biz | 12:35 |
| @kanzure | that didn't answer my question.. | 12:35 |
| jonathan_ | my idea is to attract some talented people. | 12:36 |
| @kanzure | for what? | 12:36 |
| jonathan_ | or at least, to affect some change to the typical lab model | 12:36 |
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| @kanzure | how is biotechnbeyond any different from any other pay-to-access lab? | 12:37 |
| yashgaroth | it's cheaper and worse-equipped | 12:37 |
| jonathan_ | good question | 12:37 |
| jonathan_ | how can hackers influence the lab to make it better? | 12:38 |
| yashgaroth | also you don't need a business plan/company/idea | 12:38 |
| jonathan_ | "how is linux different from aix or minix?" did that question matter back in the day.. no.. some hacker just went on doing what he wanted to do because he had the resources. | 12:39 |
| @kanzure | "how can hackers influence the..." lame. | 12:39 |
| @kanzure | linux was different because of the licensing | 12:39 |
| @kanzure | minix wasn't gpl iirc | 12:39 |
| Zhwazi | Minix is MIT or something. | 12:40 |
| jonathan_ | don't get caught up in the details | 12:40 |
| @kanzure | i was answering your question | 12:40 |
| jonathan_ | it is an example of a hacker who wanted to do something, and did it. | 12:40 |
| jonathan_ | it was a rhetorical question duh | 12:40 |
| @kanzure | but you're charging them | 12:40 |
| jonathan_ | um dude? | 12:41 |
| @kanzure | why should i use your shitty lab instead of buy my own | 12:41 |
| jonathan_ | what have I paid so far? | 12:41 |
| @kanzure | that's because jojack isn't organized | 12:41 |
| jonathan_ | nope | 12:41 |
| @kanzure | are you selling equity to him? | 12:41 |
| @kanzure | how does the deal work? | 12:41 |
| jonathan_ | what "deal" ? | 12:42 |
| @kanzure | so you have no agreement whatsoever between you personally and biotechnbeyond? | 12:42 |
| jonathan_ | here is the facts. there is a lab space. there is some lab equip. it is getting better. it is taking a long time, whatever. there is plenty of room to hack. | 12:42 |
| jonathan_ | do you think the original mit hackers sat around arguing about "what's the deal with this mainframe usage model?" no... they got in the labs and did their thing. period. | 12:43 |
| @kanzure | those are not facts. those are broad sweeping statements. | 12:43 |
| @kanzure | no, stallman looked into the licensing and then noticed that he was being assraped | 12:43 |
| jonathan_ | stallman was only 1 dude and maybe not the best dude either. | 12:44 |
| @kanzure | so your suggestion is that we should fool people into agreeing to something just because we can | 12:44 |
| jonathan_ | the lab has a couple crazy dudes already and imho they're a liability | 12:44 |
| @kanzure | what if the city of san diego owns all your work? is that really something you want? | 12:44 |
| @kanzure | this would preclude things like selling derivative products or ip | 12:44 |
| jonathan_ | again I think you are making assumptions and you should stop. | 12:45 |
| @kanzure | i asked you what the agreement was | 12:45 |
| @kanzure | and you made up some handwaving about things getting better | 12:45 |
| jonathan_ | don't get so ahead of the game when chaos is involved. | 12:45 |
| yashgaroth | wait who are the crazy dudes | 12:45 |
| jonathan_ | ha | 12:46 |
| jonathan_ | anyways a hacker only needs one thing to get a job done. resources. period. | 12:46 |
| jonathan_ | no need to wait for beauracracy or specific lab hours or even lights to be turned on. | 12:46 |
| @kanzure | uh.. | 12:47 |
| jonathan_ | the fact that it's taking a long time to set up the lab is in favor of the diy crowd anyway. | 12:47 |
| @kanzure | i don't care about "setup", that's not what we're talking about | 12:47 |
| jonathan_ | there is no "ownership of ip" if there is no official lab | 12:47 |
| jonathan_ | there is no "ownership of ip" if there is no project | 12:48 |
| @kanzure | what do you mean "there is no official lab"? then what is it. | 12:48 |
| yashgaroth | a museum of vintage lab equipment | 12:48 |
| jonathan_ | ha | 12:48 |
| @kanzure | so then the thing about membership fees is.... a lie ? | 12:49 |
| @kanzure | what's going on here | 12:49 |
| yashgaroth | the city (of carlsbad not san diego) makes no claims on any IP or revenues or anything | 12:49 |
| @kanzure | yes but what about the lab itself | 12:49 |
| jonathan_ | Ummmmmmm | 12:49 |
| jonathan_ | do you know what "grey area" is | 12:49 |
| @kanzure | no, that's why it's called grey area | 12:50 |
| @kanzure | just because it's grey does not mean it will be perpetually grey | 12:50 |
| @kanzure | it could resolve into something that i fucking htae | 12:50 |
| @kanzure | hate. | 12:50 |
| @kanzure | let's say i lived in your area. why would i transition my projects from my own lab to biotechnbeyond if i am increasing the chances that they can be compromised (either legally/ownership/licensing, who knows)? | 12:51 |
| jonathan_ | these are kind of funky questions like "well how do I work in the lab. well who owns it. who do I pay? I can't work here unless someone owns it and I pay someone. Oh I'm not going to work here because it's too disorganized and I can't pay anyone right?" | 12:51 |
| @kanzure | i'm not claiming i have to pay someone | 12:51 |
| @kanzure | but so far all of your online content has talked about membership fees. i don't want retroactive membership fees, shit. | 12:52 |
| jonathan_ | statistically unlikely. | 12:52 |
| jonathan_ | "i'm not going to do anything because it might become something that I hate so I'm not going to do anything at all" Ummmmm | 12:53 |
| @kanzure | i never said i'm not doing anything | 12:53 |
| @kanzure | whether or not biotechnbeyond exists does not particularly impact my plans | 12:53 |
| jonathan_ | you're not my target audience lol | 12:53 |
| @kanzure | true enough | 12:53 |
| @kanzure | wait, aren't i? | 12:53 |
| jonathan_ | "you" is metaphorical "you" | 12:53 |
| @kanzure | you said 'hackers'. right? | 12:53 |
| jonathan_ | you might as well say "well most projects in an incubator fail and only 1 out of 20 incubator projects ever amount to anything so I wont work in an incubator environment" lol | 12:55 |
| @kanzure | so you *are* an incubator.. so you take equity of commercial projects? | 12:55 |
| jonathan_ | grey area | 12:56 |
| jonathan_ | and there is no such thing as a retroactive grey area | 12:56 |
| jonathan_ | "so you are" .. well I am nothing, I'm just a dude, I don't represent the lab | 12:56 |
| @kanzure | you're close enough to the lab right now for me to not care about the difference :P | 12:56 |
| jonathan_ | don't insult me | 12:57 |
| @kanzure | how is that an insult | 12:57 |
| @kanzure | "your involvement in the lab so far makes me not care whether or not you consider yourself officially representing the lab" | 12:57 |
| jonathan_ | I dont want anything to do with their lame media or lack of focus | 12:57 |
| yashgaroth | we haven't gone any further than thinking about taking a stake of people's potential sbir money, beyond that it's just monthly fees | 12:57 |
| jonathan_ | "the lab" did not even have ONE project set up | 12:58 |
| jonathan_ | "the lab" is busy arguing about who tossed out expired bio materials from an old fridge | 12:58 |
| @kanzure | i thought someone already confessed | 12:58 |
| jonathan_ | i'm just a dude who set up two working projects for fun | 12:58 |
| @kanzure | (like a week ago) | 12:58 |
| @kanzure | just because you call it fun doesn't mean those other people aren't going ot incorporate you and invoice you for who knows what | 12:59 |
| @kanzure | retroactive control of grey area happens pretty often | 12:59 |
| jonathan_ | well just because you don't have any motivation to do a project if you are given lab space doesn't mean other people won't want to so pbbt lol | 12:59 |
| @kanzure | so, one of my ideas was that it would be nice to do some CRO work in san diego | 12:59 |
| @kanzure | and i could just pay yashgaroth $50/hour to do lab work on that front, and use biotechnbeyond | 13:00 |
| @kanzure | but if i'm netting $40-$60k/month, i don't want biotechnbeyond eating up my revenue | 13:00 |
| jonathan_ | money != hacking | 13:00 |
| @kanzure | yashgaroth: btw sorry about assuming how much you'd like to be paid. i have no idea what that startup is paying you. | 13:00 |
| jonathan_ | you are talking business. I am talking hacking. | 13:01 |
| jonathan_ | you can do both just maintain separation of the two. | 13:01 |
| yashgaroth | my current company pays me half that | 13:01 |
| yashgaroth | then again they have full-time work and a modicum of job security | 13:01 |
| @kanzure | yashgaroth: k keep fighting the good fight | 13:01 |
| jonathan_ | awww poor yashgaroth | 13:01 |
| yashgaroth | heh | 13:01 |
| jonathan_ | :-( | 13:01 |
| yashgaroth | that's pretty goddamn good for biotech at my age/experience, sadly | 13:02 |
| @kanzure | yeah i agree | 13:02 |
| @kanzure | but i also think that if i pay more, i should be able to get better talent | 13:02 |
| @kanzure | you're not exactly bottom of the barrel | 13:02 |
| jonathan_ | fact is, i'm just a dude off the street who saw an opportunity and resources to do some bio hacking. (ok admittedly lame hacking so far but everything starts with "hello world" anyways) | 13:02 |
| yashgaroth | for 50/hr you can get a phd with several years of industry experience | 13:03 |
| jonathan_ | it would be nice to have some talented hackers in the lab to actually Build Something Cool | 13:03 |
| @kanzure | maaaybe. i haven't confirmed that yet. everyone keeps telling me "no dude, you gotta be a name brand company to get a phd at all." | 13:03 |
| jrayhawk_ | sounds implausible | 13:04 |
| brownies | isn't there rampant unemployment amongst PhDs or something? | 13:04 |
| jonathan_ | and i doubt those guys will argue "well who owns the ip? well isn't it too disorganized? am I going to retroactively get un-hacked on my hacking projects?" ... Ummm | 13:04 |
| brownies | i'm pretty sure i've heard griping along those lines. | 13:04 |
| yashgaroth | I see plenty of contract phd positions out there | 13:04 |
| @kanzure | jonathan_: so, why should i participate in biotechnbeyond when i can setup my own lab, and *guarantee* to hackers that their work is licensed in a certain way. | 13:04 |
| @kanzure | brownies: yes there's lots of unemployment. | 13:04 |
| jonathan_ | you can, if you want, why not? | 13:04 |
| yashgaroth | there's unemployment because they feel entitled to 80k/year for a job a BS can do for half that | 13:04 |
| yashgaroth | personal opinion there, mind | 13:05 |
| jonathan_ | other than, there's 2000 sq ft of exiosting lab space or whttever it is - oh and by the way the ability to leech some needed supplies from the sponsored projects | 13:05 |
| jonathan_ | people in the event asked me the same thing | 13:05 |
| gradstudentbot | Where did all my bands go? | 13:05 |
| jonathan_ | "well if this is so easy why don't you just do it at home? why not in your own kitchen?" Ummm isnt that missing the point DUH | 13:05 |
| yashgaroth | we have some marginally expensive equipment they wouldn't have to buy | 13:05 |
| * brownies pokes gradstudentbot | 13:06 | |
| gradstudentbot | Well, it looks better if you see it through a UV scope. | 13:06 |
| @kanzure | yes but that equipment is useless because of all your grey area | 13:06 |
| jonathan_ | how are you going to have a singularity in your tiny little home lab where no one else wants to go. | 13:06 |
| @kanzure | if you can guarantee to me that you wont touch my money, that my projects are my own (except perhaps for marketing purposes), etc., then the deal starts to sound better. | 13:06 |
| @kanzure | i never said i required a singularity | 13:06 |
| jonathan_ | I never said I was talking about you, lol | 13:06 |
| @kanzure | that's just kurzweil/hype talking | 13:06 |
| jonathan_ | money != hacking, again | 13:07 |
| @kanzure | i don't even know what you are trying to say now | 13:07 |
| jonathan_ | why do you keep bringing up money? | 13:07 |
| @kanzure | basically you have a really nebulous, shaky situation that can go either way (good, bad, middle). prove me otherwise. | 13:07 |
| yashgaroth | money = hacking when you need more than ramen to create a product | 13:07 |
| jonathan_ | prove to me that shaky situations do not always benefit smart hackers. | 13:07 |
| @kanzure | wooow wtf | 13:08 |
| jonathan_ | you're going off in the wrong direction | 13:08 |
| @kanzure | basically everything that has ever happened, ever. | 13:08 |
| @kanzure | i feel so strongly about this supporting evidence that i feel your statement is the crazy one that needs to be proven. | 13:09 |
| jonathan_ | i'm talking about doing projects and you keep coming back to "well what happens with my money. well what happens with my IP. well where's the organization." | 13:09 |
| @kanzure | yes, doing projects *in a building owned by the city* is not covered by activity in public space. | 13:09 |
| jonathan_ | then fifteen minnutes later you'll say "I have plenty of money, I don't need your money anyway" lol | 13:09 |
| yashgaroth | they are leasing it to us | 13:10 |
| jonathan_ | and how does the city even know you are doing a project? | 13:10 |
| @kanzure | see! so what does the leasing contract even say. | 13:10 |
| @kanzure | jonathan_: well, if we want to talk about doing things secretly, that's different, an entirely different conversation | 13:10 |
| jonathan_ | DUH | 13:10 |
| jonathan_ | geez man | 13:10 |
| @kanzure | if i want to do secret things, why would i want to do that in a public lab ?? | 13:10 |
| jonathan_ | there's no secret invovled | 13:10 |
| @kanzure | huh? | 13:10 |
| @kanzure | yashgaroth: can you give me details on this leasing contract. | 13:11 |
| yashgaroth | all I know is it's $1 per year, jojack is the only one who's seen it afaik | 13:11 |
| @kanzure | was jojack the one who signed it? | 13:11 |
| yashgaroth | I...think so | 13:11 |
| jonathan_ | umm the contract is on the web | 13:11 |
| jonathan_ | it's in one of the news articles, there's a link to it | 13:11 |
| jonathan_ | probably best to read it directly | 13:11 |
| jonathan_ | btw you are a very black & white thinker. | 13:12 |
| jonathan_ | the world however operates in the grey a lot of the time. | 13:12 |
| yashgaroth | oh sweet http://carlsbad.granicus.com/MetaViewer.php?meta_id=75184&view=&showpdf=1 | 13:12 |
| @kanzure | just because it's grey to you doesn't mean that it's not already set in stone somewhere | 13:12 |
| @kanzure | if you wish hard enough, it isn't going to change | 13:12 |
| @kanzure | you should look into it | 13:12 |
| @kanzure | ignorance wont save you | 13:12 |
| jonathan_ | by the time anyone figured out even 10% of my hacking projects, they were already done and distributed | 13:12 |
| @kanzure | reading.. | 13:13 |
| @kanzure | "new invention patents" | 13:13 |
| jonathan_ | that is why I am saying, the disorganization only benefits you | 13:13 |
| @kanzure | "Bio, Tech and Beyond LLC" | 13:14 |
| jonathan_ | by the time there is organization to the lab it will be 6 mos later and a project might already be done, complete, and out of there | 13:14 |
| yashgaroth | there isn't anything about the city taking a cut, just that they be seen as "fostering" research & education | 13:15 |
| jonathan_ | what are they going to do, sue you for a hack that is open source and doesn't yield any income? No | 13:15 |
| @kanzure | "Pursuant to their business plan," | 13:15 |
| @kanzure | open source is actually the money-making arm of the free software movement | 13:15 |
| yashgaroth | "Create a functional cell and molecular biology lab within 6 months of inception" ah shit we failed that one already | 13:15 |
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| jonathan_ | I don't really think you are onboard with distributing open source projects | 13:15 |
| @kanzure | that's why all the licenses are pro-business | 13:15 |
| @kanzure | uh. i don't think you understand open source. | 13:16 |
| jonathan_ | "biz of open source" != hacking & distributing open source | 13:16 |
| @kanzure | since when. | 13:16 |
| @kanzure | wtf? | 13:16 |
| jonathan_ | why do you keep coming back to money and business. | 13:16 |
| @kanzure | because you're an LLC | 13:16 |
| @kanzure | it says so right in that doc | 13:16 |
| jonathan_ | who is "you're" | 13:17 |
| @kanzure | the lab | 13:17 |
| @kanzure | not you yourself :) | 13:17 |
| jonathan_ | then you should type "the lab" not direct to me | 13:17 |
| @kanzure | another reason i keep mentioning it is because there are down-stream consequences of decisions. commercial stuff is a core component of open source. | 13:18 |
| @kanzure | this is also why almost everyone regrets the non-commercial segment of creative commons (it was a mistake) | 13:18 |
| jonathan_ | way back in the day I walked into a state univ lab and asked the prof if I could do some hacking on unix. did I waste time asking him silly questions about "who owns the IP? who might I have to pay? Are you going to require that I'm an LLC?" ... no... I got access and did my projects and got things done and distributed | 13:18 |
| yashgaroth | "If we are successful in creating a successful_ bioincubator, we will consider acquiring equity in | 13:19 |
| yashgaroth | future companies we help create, similar to the way that Y-Combinator has operated" but that's not in the legally-binding part | 13:19 |
| @kanzure | uh, that's because the university owns your work | 13:19 |
| @kanzure | that's very well known. it's because of the bayh-dole act. | 13:19 |
| jonathan_ | did I do it for money : no. did I do it to generate IP : no. | 13:19 |
| @kanzure | every single university is extremely hostile about it. | 13:19 |
| @kanzure | that's why they all have 'office of technology commercialization' | 13:19 |
| jonathan_ | was it a successful hack : Yes. was it distributed : Yes. | 13:19 |
| @kanzure | https://www.google.com/search?q=office+of+technology+commercialization | 13:19 |
| jonathan_ | well if you want to waste time creating reasons why you don't want to do anything interesting in the lab that is up to you. | 13:20 |
| @kanzure | uh.. what? | 13:20 |
| jonathan_ | meanwhile it is a resource sitting there waiting to be used. | 13:20 |
| @kanzure | so wait, can you summarize our differences on this matter? i'm having trouble understanding completely. | 13:21 |
| jonathan_ | ha, I dunno | 13:21 |
| @kanzure | your argument seems to be that it's an LLC but it doesn't matter because _____ | 13:21 |
| @kanzure | actually, can i just buy the company | 13:21 |
| jonathan_ | I have no idea what you are smoking. | 13:22 |
| @kanzure | it's a company. it can be bought/sold just like any other company. | 13:22 |
| jonathan_ | yea so what. | 13:22 |
| @kanzure | so what if i want it | 13:22 |
| jonathan_ | why do I care? | 13:22 |
| @kanzure | because all these "wah hackers wont want to work there" problems will get resolved by me | 13:22 |
| jonathan_ | why does it prevent me from doing work? | 13:22 |
| @kanzure | it doesn't, you can work for anyone you want man | 13:23 |
| @kanzure | you can volunteer for whoever, just be careful about who owns your volunteer labor output | 13:23 |
| jonathan_ | why does LLC matter? | 13:23 |
| jonathan_ | why does ownership matter? | 13:23 |
| @kanzure | because licensing determines the different motivations of participants | 13:23 |
| @kanzure | e.g. your hackers | 13:24 |
| jonathan_ | whatever dude | 13:24 |
| jonathan_ | I didn't beat myself up about "omg what type of license should I put on my tecan project" | 13:24 |
| jonathan_ | I just did it and distributed it and it is out there, done. | 13:24 |
| jonathan_ | in fact I encourage people to RIP IT OFF | 13:24 |
| jonathan_ | "PLEASE TAKE MY CODE AND COPY IT" | 13:24 |
| jonathan_ | "PLEASE BUILD SOMETHING COOL WITH IT" | 13:25 |
| @kanzure | the legalities of reverse engineering are already pretty well established. you putting on whatever license you like on your software is absolutely no problem. | 13:25 |
| jonathan_ | that is hacking. it is not business. | 13:25 |
| @kanzure | this is not anything like your tecan situation though | 13:25 |
| @kanzure | well, actually, you probably did the tecan work at ut austin | 13:25 |
| jonathan_ | no comment | 13:25 |
| @kanzure | exactly. see? | 13:25 |
| jonathan_ | I did it at home | 13:25 |
| jonathan_ | it's a grey area dude | 13:25 |
| jonathan_ | by the time anyone cares it will be 15 years later and too late to care | 13:26 |
| jonathan_ | there is no money made on it | 13:26 |
| jonathan_ | there is no deep pocket | 13:26 |
| jonathan_ | there is no IP to chase | 13:26 |
| @kanzure | uh, how do you know. i thought transcriptic is using your perl work. | 13:26 |
| @kanzure | that sounds like money to me. | 13:26 |
| jonathan_ | see, you keep coming back to money again. WHY? | 13:26 |
| @kanzure | the IP is the copyright. i know IP is a terrible term, but in modern society, that's what it means. | 13:26 |
| @kanzure | huh? you just claimed that there is no money made on it. but transcriptic is using it. | 13:27 |
| jonathan_ | are you jealous that someone might take your open source and make profits? | 13:27 |
| @kanzure | no, i never said that | 13:27 |
| @kanzure | i was just proving you wrong on another point | 13:27 |
| @kanzure | learn to read :( | 13:27 |
| @kanzure | you just said it: | 13:27 |
| @kanzure | 13:26 < jonathan_> there is no money made on it | 13:27 |
| @kanzure | transcriptic is evidence against that | 13:27 |
| jonathan_ | duh, by me | 13:27 |
| jonathan_ | I don't care what they do with it | 13:27 |
| @kanzure | i know *you* don't, but the university might, etc. | 13:27 |
| jonathan_ | I said, "I want people to RIP IT OFF" | 13:27 |
| jonathan_ | that is their business not mine | 13:27 |
| jonathan_ | this has nothing to do with hacking | 13:28 |
| jonathan_ | or open source | 13:28 |
| jonathan_ | you keep bringing up business terms for no reason | 13:28 |
| jonathan_ | and bringing up money matters for no reason | 13:28 |
| @kanzure | i think you're wildly mistaken about what open source means or why hackers are careful about this shit | 13:28 |
| jonathan_ | when the fact of the matter is, they are separate entities | 13:28 |
| gradstudentbot | You don't happen to have any more virgin flies, do you? | 13:28 |
| jonathan_ | you are talking just like big pharma | 13:29 |
| @kanzure | so, in all likelihood, the university wont go after you for damages because they wont see you as having enough money, even if they wanted to get damages out of transcriptic's downstream use of your illegal license | 13:29 |
| jonathan_ | "We need to have a meeting to discuss whether or not to go ahead with this POSSIBLY WORLD CHANGING PROJECT because we are concerned that the IP might have adverse ramifications on our business model" .... geez man | 13:29 |
| @kanzure | but, that's a personal risk that is yours to take, and it's unfair to misrepresent that to others as non-existant | 13:29 |
| jonathan_ | I have no idea what you're talking about, because I did it at home. | 13:29 |
| @kanzure | you had a tecan at home? | 13:30 |
| jonathan_ | I think we better have a meeting to discuss that | 13:30 |
| @kanzure | anyway, i never said anything about meetings to discuss meetings | 13:30 |
| @kanzure | nothing in the log has said anything about that | 13:30 |
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| jonathan_ | let's set up a conference bridge where we can touch base. ha | 13:30 |
| gradstudentbot | The protocol is wrong. | 13:30 |
| jonathan_ | don't mix business with hacking | 13:30 |
| jonathan_ | you want to make a startup, fine, then be very clear about your IP | 13:31 |
| jonathan_ | then bring up all the points you are raising and be very careful who owns what | 13:31 |
| jonathan_ | what does that have to do with encouraging some good hacking projects int he lab. | 13:32 |
| @kanzure | there are other reasons to make open source projects than just business. maybe i want other people to use my work, and not just me? etc. | 13:32 |
| jonathan_ | fine | 13:33 |
| jonathan_ | once it's distributed, it can't be taken back | 13:33 |
| @kanzure | we weren't talking about them taking things back | 13:33 |
| @kanzure | they can post fines against you | 13:33 |
| @kanzure | and sue you and litigate and be really mean :( | 13:34 |
| jonathan_ | oh really. | 13:34 |
| jonathan_ | at&t went after uc berkeley, they did not go after the hackers who wrote original bsd. | 13:34 |
| @kanzure | because those hackers had a contract with uc berkeley | 13:35 |
| @kanzure | there are technical reasons that hapened that way | 13:35 |
| @kanzure | it wasn't magic/chance | 13:35 |
| jonathan_ | hey, let's not hack anything because people might be really mean at some point in the future when they finally figure out 15 years from now what we're doing! | 13:35 |
| @kanzure | huh? why would you say that? | 13:35 |
| jonathan_ | that was sarcasm | 13:35 |
| @kanzure | yeah but it doesn't make any sense. how about you hack now, but without all of these nebulous externalities? | 13:35 |
| @kanzure | isn't that easier? | 13:36 |
| jonathan_ | and oh by the way they're going to spend six figures on legal fees going after people who made no money on the project! (sarcasm) | 13:36 |
| @kanzure | why do you keep saying no money? open source projects can make money all the time. and just because *you* didn't make money doesn't mean they can't go after you for wrongful licensing. | 13:36 |
| @kanzure | so look, i think good hackers deserve protection | 13:37 |
| jonathan_ | like I said you keep mixing money/business with hacking, if you kept them separate, at least for the purposes of the discussion, you'd be free of mental conflict | 13:37 |
| @kanzure | that's what licenses were written for. so that hackers can get all that legal shit out of the way and just use something created for them. | 13:37 |
| jonathan_ | well, I am sure anyone could get something signed by the exec level of the lab if they were really so concerned. | 13:38 |
| @kanzure | hrmm | 13:38 |
| jonathan_ | i'll bring it up next time and I'll say we need a kanzure clause. | 13:39 |
| @kanzure | clause in what? | 13:39 |
| jonathan_ | kanzure clause | 13:39 |
| @kanzure | yeah but a clause where | 13:39 |
| jonathan_ | you know, a big fat man in a red suit with a white beard? | 13:39 |
| jonathan_ | lol | 13:39 |
| jonathan_ | oh wait thats santa claus sorry got confused | 13:39 |
| @kanzure | i mean, i could get one of my lawyers to draft up some basic agreement where jojack signs off that biotechnbeyond has no ownership of some open source project | 13:39 |
| @kanzure | i am not really sure what that doc would look like, i'm no lawyer | 13:40 |
| jonathan_ | that's pretty much the plan from the beginning anyways | 13:40 |
| jonathan_ | there is no plan to take ip ownership | 13:40 |
| jonathan_ | it's the first question I asked the city back in feb | 13:40 |
| @kanzure | yeah but i would rather have that explicitly written down and signed | 13:40 |
| jonathan_ | sure fine | 13:40 |
| jonathan_ | that's why I said grey area dude | 13:41 |
| jonathan_ | not sure how they can claim ownership if nothing was signed anyway | 13:41 |
| @kanzure | "work occurred on premises" etc.. it happens all the time. | 13:41 |
| jonathan_ | there is no agreement either way | 13:41 |
| @kanzure | "implied consent due to presence on premise" ugh | 13:41 |
| @kanzure | <--- screwed one too many times in the past | 13:42 |
| jonathan_ | I dunno, would have to check calif state law maybe | 13:42 |
| jonathan_ | texas might be harsher | 13:43 |
| @kanzure | so if i pay you to do hacking stuff, why is that not hacking? like imagine i was paying you to work on whatever you prefer. why would that be not hacking? | 13:43 |
| jonathan_ | fact is someone could do a project and complete it and distribute it and no one would even know there was a project done | 13:43 |
| jonathan_ | if you pay me then it is a business deal that's why | 13:43 |
| @kanzure | if you want to be completely anonymous, like i said, that's a different discussion. i fully agree with you that you can slip under someone's nose very easily. it's stupid easy. | 13:43 |
| jonathan_ | uh | 13:44 |
| jonathan_ | "different discussion" lol | 13:44 |
| jonathan_ | like an hour ago I said we were talking about a grey area before the lab is organized | 13:44 |
| jonathan_ | how is that a different discussion than what I was talking about an hour ago lol | 13:44 |
| @kanzure | because grey area means the lab doesn't even know and can't guarantee | 13:44 |
| jonathan_ | maybe you're a little slow on the uptake today | 13:44 |
| @kanzure | whereas saying, "i want to sneak around" is explicitly something different | 13:45 |
| jonathan_ | um I dont' sneak | 13:45 |
| @kanzure | "not officially sanctioned" | 13:45 |
| jonathan_ | everything is right out in the open mr fbi agent | 13:45 |
| @kanzure | anyway, yes it's entirely possible that i am slow. i don't deny that. | 13:45 |
| jonathan_ | it's not officially unsanctioned | 13:45 |
| @kanzure | haha i see | 13:45 |
| jonathan_ | why does anything have to be officially sanctioned when there's no "real lab" yet ?? | 13:46 |
| @kanzure | well whatever. what is your list of projects that you need money for? | 13:46 |
| @kanzure | it is a real lab. it has a real place and an LLC and everything.. i didn't say it has to be officially sanctioned, of course. but if something was to be sanctioned, it would be by the LLC owner or w/e. | 13:46 |
| @kanzure | if there's some software work you're considering, i could help out on that, but mostly i understand hardware/bio projects take priority | 13:46 |
| @kanzure | i have been trying to get yashgaroth or ParahSail1n to start a black market antibody operation | 13:47 |
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| @kanzure | yashgaroth: ping | 13:47 |
| jonathan_ | yea and apparently someone's a bit SLOW in that dept | 13:47 |
| @kanzure | joejacks: yo would you sign a doc for an open source project at biotechnbeyond saying biotechnbeyond doesn't own it? | 13:47 |
| yashgaroth | I'm down | 13:47 |
| jonathan_ | you're down? | 13:48 |
| yashgaroth | for the antibodies | 13:48 |
| @kanzure | for organ harvesting | 13:48 |
| @kanzure | oh, antibodies.. | 13:48 |
| yashgaroth | or w/e | 13:48 |
| jonathan_ | oh I thought down meant napping | 13:48 |
| jonathan_ | waiting for you dude! | 13:48 |
| jonathan_ | I got my side all ready to go! | 13:48 |
| joejacks | yes we will have contracts with tenants | 13:48 |
| jonathan_ | kanzure is concerned that you are going to steal my IP | 13:49 |
| jonathan_ | so now we need to sign a paper that says you will not sue me for back-IP | 13:49 |
| @kanzure | yeah i mean, if you want hackers to do hacking things, you have to protect their rights | 13:49 |
| @kanzure | or something like that | 13:49 |
| joejacks | hands off policu except as regards grant apps conducted with us where we ask indirects | 13:49 |
| @kanzure | indirects? | 13:49 |
| jonathan_ | now I will have nightmares of lawyers coming to get me in the night. or something. | 13:50 |
| @kanzure | jonathan_: hey at least it's not nightmares of the fbi.. | 13:50 |
| @kanzure | jonathan_: so that's prolly an improvement right | 13:51 |
| yashgaroth | depends how good the lawyers are | 13:51 |
| jonathan_ | I am disappointed that the FBI agent did not come snoop on me | 13:51 |
| jonathan_ | where are you, mr. fbi | 13:51 |
| jonathan_ | I think he should have introduced himself or something. | 13:52 |
| @kanzure | joejacks: was there anyone really interesting at the event yesterday? | 13:52 |
| @kanzure | jonathan_: nah that would have been a buzzkill. "okay everyone, please shut up while this scary fbi agent introduces himself." | 13:52 |
| gradstudentbot | That's definitely a Cell paper. | 13:52 |
| jonathan_ | if money were the goal we'd be writing some intstagram app to be acquired by facebook isnt that right? | 13:54 |
| jonathan_ | why even bother with bio at all? | 13:55 |
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| jonathan_ | make sure to call it the "kanzure clause" | 14:02 |
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| heath | carlsbad lab = http://www.meetup.com/DIYbio-San-Diego/ ? | 14:13 |
| @kanzure | not quite | 14:13 |
| @kanzure | http://biotechnbeyond.com/ | 14:13 |
| @kanzure | just got off the phone with him | 14:13 |
| heath | why'd joseph move from san francisco to san diego? | 14:15 |
| * heath gets cable internet tomorrow in the new/old house \\o/ | 14:16 | |
| * heath finishes tearing carpet from the floor and decides to read the logs later | 14:16 | |
| jonathan_ | to start the lab | 14:17 |
| jonathan_ | "the lab" | 14:17 |
| jonathan_ | looks like I will remove all my stuff from "the lab" due to IP concerns | 14:19 |
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| jonathan_ | did you get all your q's answered? | 14:33 |
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| @kanzure | he wanted to talk about other things | 14:53 |
| @kanzure | just telling me how the event went from his perspective, etc. | 14:53 |
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| juri_ | IP concerns. wheee, fun. | 14:56 |
| juri_ | at freegeek arkansas, we did not have a problem with random hackers hacking whatever. we taught them how to contribute to upstream trees. | 14:57 |
| jonathan_ | something implied the kombucha lab bench was a success? imho it was not a success | 14:57 |
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| juri_ | maybe the concept of 'upstream tree' and 'distro' are not yet well enough congealed in biohacking? | 14:57 |
| @kanzure | jonathan_: i thought your goal was to get a project that already worked, into the lab? | 14:58 |
| @kanzure | jonathan_: what was your success criteria | 14:58 |
| @kanzure | juri_: but surely you agree that you shouldn't do free work for a company that might claim ownership of your system | 14:59 |
| juri_ | oh certainly. | 14:59 |
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| @kanzure | *of your work | 14:59 |
| juri_ | i'm just trying to put it in words that make the most sense to me. | 14:59 |
| @kanzure | juri_: btw, yes, upstream, releases, versioning, branches, forks, all of these concepts are completely foreign to biologists. and most biohackers. | 14:59 |
| juri_ | and try to eek out a solution, ased on my past experiences. like all humans. or at least, the good ones. | 14:59 |
| @kanzure | all of the good biohackers seem to have this down | 14:59 |
| @kanzure | maradydd has always expressed excellent technical insight, but that's cheating because her background is hacking and infosec | 15:00 |
| @kanzure | and biotech. | 15:00 |
| juri_ | mm. put me in charge of one. ;) | 15:00 |
| juri_ | i've run a building full of hackers for over three years, and was the only one on FGAR's history to ever get re-elected to the board. i know handling crazy hackers. | 15:01 |
| * juri_ dreams. | 15:01 | |
| juri_ | I shoould have taken more of a biohacker angle at FGAR. we had a GC/MS, and a microbiologist on hand.. | 15:02 |
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| delinquentme | http://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/article-2358697/The-revolutionary-blood-test-predict-long-youll-live-ailments-youll--fast-youll-age.html#comments | 15:05 |
| delinquentme | does anyone have the paper for this ? | 15:05 |
| delinquentme | having trouble locating the research repos | 15:05 |
| jonathan_ | i'm no longer going to talk about hacking here because it seems the meaning has been corrupted and/or lost | 15:06 |
| jonathan_ | so focused on "money" and "ownership" that it is silly | 15:06 |
| @kanzure | jonathan_: i think you are just misunderstanding me | 15:07 |
| @kanzure | jonathan_: is it possible that we're just bad at communicating, and that we're actually still hacking it up? | 15:07 |
| jonathan_ | stallman did more harm to the world than benefit IMHO | 15:07 |
| jonathan_ | " but surely you agree that you shouldn't do free work for a company that might claim ownership of your system" -> wrong | 15:08 |
| jonathan_ | I disagree | 15:08 |
| @kanzure | jonathan_: i was asking juri_, not you. i know your opinion is different (and i am okay with that). | 15:08 |
| @kanzure | wait.. now i am confused. | 15:08 |
| jonathan_ | go re-read the ad-free version of bsd license about fifty times | 15:09 |
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| jonathan_ | stallman is the one who corrupted good work. | 15:10 |
| @kanzure | i have nothing against the bsd license (but, juri_ does, i think) | 15:11 |
| jonathan_ | stallman also destroyed the very motivation for contributing to projects - namely, for acknowledgement and ego | 15:12 |
| jonathan_ | because, his license does not include attribution | 15:12 |
| @kanzure | so, i'm actually happy that you're totally in support of non-money-making projects | 15:16 |
| @kanzure | because months ago it sounded like the opposite | 15:16 |
| juri_ | i do.. | 15:16 |
| juri_ | wow. | 15:16 |
| @kanzure | you do have a problem with bsd? | 15:17 |
| @kanzure | i mean, we've never talked about it, but i just assume so because you seem to be a generic gnu chick :) | 15:17 |
| juri_ | yes. it boils down to a mantra i've triedto follow all my life. | 15:17 |
| @kanzure | and your opinions tend to be very consistent around that philosophy | 15:17 |
| @kanzure | so... yeah. +1 for being able to predict things. | 15:17 |
| juri_ | 'lend not thy hand to thine own enemy'. | 15:17 |
| juri_ | I don't like having people selling my software, competing against me, and having my software closed. this is unfair, to me. | 15:18 |
| jonathan_ | dude it depends on context | 15:18 |
| @kanzure | no offense, but these sound like the standard arguments | 15:18 |
| juri_ | i've contributed to BSD'd projects, but only when i was young, and not being paticularly picky whos source code i improved. | 15:18 |
| @kanzure | offence? | 15:18 |
| juri_ | none taken. :) | 15:19 |
| jonathan_ | I have both a job and a hobby. a job makes $. a hobby makes ego. hobby is not for business by definition. | 15:19 |
| juri_ | me and jonathan should not speak. ;) | 15:19 |
| @kanzure | whatever, jonathan is very good at what he does, so it almost doesn't matter | 15:19 |
| jonathan_ | your key point is "competing against me," | 15:20 |
| juri_ | my key point is "closed". i don't care if you compete against me, under the terms of the GPL. | 15:20 |
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| jonathan_ | assume you have $100 million in the bank right now. why would you care if others "compete against me" | 15:20 |
| juri_ | in fact, i'll give you all the tools to do it. | 15:20 |
| gradstudentbot | Let's have a pset party. | 15:20 |
| @kanzure | jonathan_: background/context is that juri_ gets paid to work on GPL software. also she prefers it exclusively. | 15:21 |
| jonathan_ | i have specific examples where GPL has stifled innovation just like bad patents stifle innovation. | 15:21 |
| @kanzure | actually, simulations have shown that the entire patent system is net negative or w/e | 15:22 |
| juri_ | i'd be interested, assuming theres some solidity there, to see how you came to that conclusion. | 15:22 |
| @kanzure | there is no evidence that anyone claimed that there is a perfect system that had no failure rate | 15:22 |
| jonathan_ | if you are doing it "for work" then sure you are OK to insist that in return for daily bread, your values are met. | 15:22 |
| juri_ | johnathan: i'm starting to get offended. | 15:22 |
| @kanzure | jonathan_: are you actually interested in this argument? i'm just wondering. we could be designing mosquito killer death rays or something. | 15:22 |
| juri_ | you have this concept of 'for work' or 'for hoby'. i just DO. | 15:22 |
| @kanzure | jonathan_: because juri_ is the type of person that will carry this conversation on for a very long time :) | 15:23 |
| jonathan_ | I have been in design teams where we wanted specifically to R&D innovative products but either the market was destroyed by GPL or components were off-limits due to GPL. | 15:23 |
| @kanzure | jonathan_: which isn't bad.. but just be aware of it. | 15:23 |
| juri_ | yes, i will. ;) | 15:23 |
| gradstudentbot | The autoclave smells really good. | 15:23 |
| @kanzure | jonathan_: so what's the upcoming project list? | 15:23 |
| juri_ | johnathan: the GPL does not guarantee you business opportuntities. | 15:23 |
| juri_ | in fact, i imagine NO license does. | 15:23 |
| jonathan_ | gcc is a great example of how GPL has killed compiler optimization for example | 15:23 |
| juri_ | FFFT! | 15:23 |
| juri_ | wow. | 15:24 |
| @kanzure | on an unrelated point, llvm seems to be doing pretty well. | 15:24 |
| juri_ | because something is free, no-one wants to develop non-free.. so thats a problem> | 15:24 |
| juri_ | ? | 15:24 |
| jonathan_ | because it is a viral license which forces you to release (and support!) the restricted portions, a for-profit business has difficulty "adding value" | 15:25 |
| delinquentme | paperbot, http://ije.oxfordjournals.org/content/42/1/76.abstract?sid=9fccb8af-9ea4-4791-b635-fb0e4b84e770 | 15:25 |
| paperbot | http://libgen.org/scimag/get.php?doi=10.1093%2Fije%2Fdyr207 | 15:25 |
| juri_ | so, for profit business has a right to add value now. | 15:25 |
| juri_ | i thought the purpose of the for-profit business was to extract revenue. | 15:25 |
| gradstudentbot | Let's pour a bunch of chemlights into a spinner flask and claim it's luminescent e.coli. | 15:26 |
| delinquentme | paperbot, http://ije.oxfordjournals.org/content/42/1/76 | 15:26 |
| paperbot | http://libgen.org/scimag/get.php?doi=10.1093%2Fije%2Fdyr207 | 15:26 |
| yashgaroth | god damnit gradstudentbot | 15:26 |
| gradstudentbot | Yeah, I'm just looking for a journal that will take that paper. | 15:26 |
| wizrobe | lol | 15:27 |
| jonathan_ | "i thought the purpose of the for-profit business was to extract revenue." ... no but I'll end it at that | 15:27 |
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| delinquentme | a for-profit business has difficulty "adding value" | 15:28 |
| juri_ | jonathan: if you're looking at a for profit to do more than extract revenue, maybe you should be looking at non-profits. you know, businessses that have a stated goal other than greed. | 15:28 |
| delinquentme | thats quite a vast statement no? | 15:28 |
| jonathan_ | no comment | 15:28 |
| gradstudentbot | You used the wrong formula. | 15:29 |
| jonathan_ | do homework on "added value" | 15:29 |
| jonathan_ | i dunno what the project list for the lab is | 15:29 |
| juri_ | i don't have to do homework. i add value to software every day. you may even have heard of some of it. | 15:29 |
| jonathan_ | I am looking for collaborators | 15:29 |
| juri_ | good luck. | 15:30 |
| jonathan_ | I have my own ideas, but, it depends on what other people might want to do | 15:30 |
| jonathan_ | for example, I think continuous flow culturing would be a cool setup. | 15:30 |
| delinquentme | jonathan_, I see recurring themes here | 15:31 |
| delinquentme | " Heres a book, read it all " | 15:31 |
| juri_ | I've recently been adding water cooling to my electrical engineering bench. gotta feed the 3d printer. | 15:31 |
| delinquentme | I know a few things about value added | 15:31 |
| delinquentme | but this seems more a philosopical discussion | 15:31 |
| delinquentme | philosophical ** | 15:31 |
| jonathan_ | the interesting thing is that the biologists in the lab are really focused on continually asking "what's the application for it?" ... which is bizarre because scientists are supposed to focus on doing something "for science" not "for product" | 15:32 |
| juri_ | just because our philosophy is radically opposed, doesn't make us incapable of communicating, thankfully. | 15:32 |
| juri_ | that does seem to be very 'hacker culture'. | 15:32 |
| juri_ | find an app for it, and get it in place doing something. | 15:32 |
| yashgaroth | there were maybe a half-dozen academic researchers there, the rest were in industry | 15:33 |
| @kanzure | jonathan_: i think the stereotype that scientists are "unapplied" is false. everyone always likes to chew on the other people. | 15:33 |
| jonathan_ | it's a problem if the solution is assumed to be locked up in a safe somewhere. I build hobby solutions as 100% public domain to be used by anyone anywhere even for sale by someone else to enhance the world. | 15:33 |
| jonathan_ | I dont attempt to think "omg someone 10 years from now might make a profit on this so I better restrict them from doing that before I even start" | 15:34 |
| juri_ | johnathan: i'm a bit guilty of what you're talking about.. i do tend to pour my energy into 3d printing, out of fear of patents. | 15:34 |
| jonathan_ | well it's interesting that "continuous flow for kombucha" seems to be taken somehow differently than "continuous flow for biofuels" or "continuous flow for antibody production" (or whatever I dunno) | 15:35 |
| juri_ | there has been a lot of talk of patenting the 3d printer industry out of existence, so i have to admit, i do push | 15:35 |
| jonathan_ | the point is to friggin compile & run "hello world" then it can be ported to another "machine" ... to state it metaphorically | 15:35 |
| juri_ | just a bit harder' if i think its a line someone else may crioss (and patent) first. | 15:35 |
| juri_ | working with others is really hard. I have tended to teams of 3-5 people max, as a result. | 15:37 |
| jonathan_ | the reason the "applied science" is funky in that environment is because "citizen science" is heavily promoted and discussed, and "experiment on an unknown area like neglected disease and maybe find something completely new" is also bandied about (esp considering assay depot presence) yet when it comes to idea generation there is no consideration for building re-usable technology (which maybe is the big flaw I'm describing) and | 15:38 |
| jonathan_ | consideration attempting to figure out how to jump to a specific solution. | 15:38 |
| @kanzure | there are already patents on lots of 3d printing htings. but sure, i could imagine future more patents. | 15:38 |
| @kanzure | jonathan_: is assay depot still involved or what's the deal? | 15:38 |
| jonathan_ | connection is kevin | 15:38 |
| juri_ | johnathan: mind if i say something a little pointed on that subject? | 15:39 |
| jonathan_ | imho the definition of science is more like: find or characterize something without regard for it's use or attempting to bias the outcome. | 15:39 |
| juri_ | 'no consideration for building re-usable technology'.. this makes good sense. | 15:39 |
| jonathan_ | it's a free room say whatever you want | 15:40 |
| juri_ | when your experiments are purpose designed for results.. | 15:40 |
| jonathan_ | "experiments are purpose designed for results.." -- that is because the idea of open source is being corrupted here | 15:40 |
| jonathan_ | now you guys even want to ensure that "volunteer work shouldn't be public domain" | 15:41 |
| jonathan_ | wth | 15:41 |
| juri_ | the idea does not come from science. its being forced in. | 15:41 |
| jonathan_ | it's a new lab so keep out the corruption | 15:41 |
| juri_ | mmm. | 15:41 |
| * juri_ rethinks how to restate. | 15:41 | |
| @kanzure | who said it shouldn't be public domain? | 15:41 |
| jonathan_ | it's totally strange that everyone in the lab agrees "oh patents are evil" and then turn around and start behaving in exactly the same way | 15:41 |
| @kanzure | just because patents are evil doesn't mean you shouldn't get a defensive patent license rolling | 15:42 |
| juri_ | re-usable technology is the EXACT OPPOSITE of what someone who is looking for a research-paper-worthy-result is looking for. | 15:42 |
| @kanzure | patents still exist whether you like them or not | 15:42 |
| @kanzure | and the reality is that the company can still retroactively patent sue you for whateverthefuck | 15:42 |
| @kanzure | s/company/lab company | 15:42 |
| juri_ | they are looking for a machine that they will have to justify to someone, to get the results to write the paper.. | 15:42 |
| jonathan_ | "re-usable technology is the EXACT OPPOSITE of what someone who is looking for a research-paper-worthy-result is looking for." --> mistake | 15:42 |
| jonathan_ | the scientists want to do an experiment which finds something novel, yes. | 15:42 |
| @kanzure | the scientists often build custom equipment that isn't reusable. they don't even document it correctly. | 15:43 |
| jonathan_ | the TOOLS that they use for that experiment are all common and should be easy | 15:43 |
| @kanzure | you've seen those really bad schematics in papers, right? | 15:43 |
| juri_ | and when you're justifying a machine, right or wrong, saying "same machine the students were beating with bats and clubs last year" doesn't work. | 15:43 |
| gradstudentbot | Can I borrow some sulphuric acid? | 15:44 |
| jonathan_ | well anyway if they thought correctly they'd be engineers not scientists lol | 15:44 |
| jonathan_ | prototypical scientist: head in the cloud wondering what makes pollen fly in the wind | 15:44 |
| jonathan_ | there is actually a couple dudes like that, they are funny. | 15:44 |
| gradstudentbot | I have to order new primers. | 15:45 |
| jonathan_ | they were all clustered around the microscope the other day saying "we need to find a bug! let's find a bug to see if this mag really works!" | 15:45 |
| jonathan_ | someone actually found a bug on the floor | 15:45 |
| jonathan_ | they put it on a slide | 15:45 |
| juri_ | i find stereotypes are not very useful online. we're all outliers, more-or-less. ;) | 15:45 |
| jonathan_ | then commenced tripping out "wow !" | 15:45 |
| @kanzure | yeah, am i a bad person if i do both engineering and basic research? does this make me evil? | 15:45 |
| @kanzure | what if i also inherit $100 million? am i then a terrible person? | 15:45 |
| @kanzure | blah | 15:45 |
| jonathan_ | yes, you are evil. okay next topic. | 15:45 |
| @kanzure | alright glad we got that decided | 15:46 |
| jonathan_ | you can be both but not both on the same project. | 15:46 |
| jonathan_ | keep it focused you know. don't muck up pure research by attempting to steer it "omg we could make it solve xyz problem" | 15:46 |
| @kanzure | what is "pure research" in this context? | 15:47 |
| jonathan_ | let's say, dna origami | 15:47 |
| jonathan_ | "let's see if we can make dna scaffolds. oh wait but let's not because it can't be used to cure cancer, forget it!" | 15:47 |
| juri_ | kanzure: i'm in a similar boat. i do my own electrical, computer, and mechanical engineering, and am as comfortable in bootstrap assembly as i am in javascript. | 15:48 |
| @kanzure | how is that pure research? that's applied dna synthesis.. choosing which sequences to synthesize isn't just random guessing, you put a lot of thought into it. | 15:48 |
| @kanzure | juri_: that's terrifying, why would you choose javascript as an example? | 15:48 |
| jonathan_ | "applied" to what | 15:48 |
| juri_ | kanzure: just spending a lot of time staring at it lately. | 15:48 |
| jonathan_ | I think that means vertically talented. | 15:48 |
| jonathan_ | back to lab projects eh | 15:49 |
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| jonathan_ | I think it would be neat to evolve food into better gmo | 15:49 |
| @kanzure | i thought "evolving food" was just normal crop selection | 15:49 |
| juri_ | its the definition of better that we all argue over. | 15:49 |
| jonathan_ | purple yam | 15:49 |
| jonathan_ | I would like to make more food "purple" for example. | 15:50 |
| @kanzure | who has argued about "better" in the context of gmo? i'm not aware of anything. | 15:50 |
| jonathan_ | meh stop arguing semantics | 15:50 |
| @kanzure | it's not semantics. she is trying to say things and i am trying to read those things. :( | 15:50 |
| jonathan_ | church evolved the tomato. | 15:50 |
| juri_ | kanzure: seriously? maybe that's just me, then. | 15:50 |
| juri_ | i'm pro GMO. anti-monsanto. | 15:50 |
| @kanzure | juri_: most people argue against gmo completely, not about better/worse modifications to make :P | 15:50 |
| @kanzure | sure. | 15:50 |
| @kanzure | but what does that have to do with better GMO? sorry. | 15:51 |
| @kanzure | i guess no monsanto would be better. | 15:51 |
| @kanzure | so there's that | 15:51 |
| jonathan_ | Hmm there was recently a new study on purple yam lemme see... | 15:51 |
| juri_ | maybe the 'thinking' position just isn't heard much during these 'debates' over GMO food saftey. | 15:51 |
| juri_ | i'm pro GMO, as i'm pro science in general. science works. its just a question of what we are optimizing for. monsanto's idea of 'better' involves dollars rolling in, as they're a for-profit industry. | 15:52 |
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| @kanzure | no, i don't think it's that they are for-profit that's the problem | 15:52 |
| juri_ | this is understandable, but should not be allowed when it comes to the food products we eat. ( i know, should. i hate that word.) | 15:52 |
| jonathan_ | "Role of anthocyanin-enriched purple-fleshed sweet potato p40 in colorectal cancer prevention" | 15:52 |
| @kanzure | i think their litigation strategies and patents are problematic | 15:52 |
| jonathan_ | paperbot http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/mnfr.201300040/full | 15:52 |
| @kanzure | but just because they are a business doesn't seem particularly offensive. yo ushoudl also hate FSF then too. they are incorporated. | 15:52 |
| juri_ | i think those are symptoms of their for-profit nature, in this legal system. something about those sets of variables needs to change. | 15:53 |
| paperbot | http://libgen.org/scimag2/10.1111/j.1750-3841.2008.00774.x.pdf | 15:53 |
| @kanzure | no, you can be a for-profit entity without suing everyone into oblivion | 15:53 |
| jonathan_ | excellent! | 15:53 |
| juri_ | i'm very anti for-profit. ;) | 15:53 |
| @kanzure | your anti-stance doesn't mean for-profit companies have to sue everyone into oblivion | 15:53 |
| jonathan_ | it would be great to make purple soybeans | 15:53 |
| juri_ | i'm not convinced. worse, i'm convinced that by not suing everyone into oblivion, and accepting investors, you leave yourself open to being sued for not being enough of a dick. | 15:54 |
| jonathan_ | also, it would be cool to make B-12 containing soybeans. | 15:55 |
| juri_ | so, maybe i should re-state my position as being anti for-profit-with-investors. | 15:55 |
| jonathan_ | sounds like your a commie | 15:56 |
| jonathan_ | *you're | 15:56 |
| juri_ | no, i don't believe in the centralized management of the redistribution of resources. | 15:56 |
| juri_ | i'm a micro-commie. i think communism should be a bunch of minigames, instead of one huge system. | 15:56 |
| jonathan_ | i'm a capitalist and I think freeloading hippies are a drain on the ecosystem. | 15:57 |
| @kanzure | who is a "freeloading hippie"? | 15:57 |
| jonathan_ | i'm more successful than others so I deserve more reward than others. | 15:57 |
| juri_ | you had more out of the gate than others. white, male, college educated? | 15:58 |
| jonathan_ | lol bryan you're kind of like eliza sometimes ha | 15:58 |
| jonathan_ | no I didn't | 15:58 |
| @kanzure | are you calling juri_ a freeloading hippie | 15:58 |
| jonathan_ | chinese and indians had more "out of the gate" than I did | 15:58 |
| @kanzure | i'm just trying to understand | 15:58 |
| @kanzure | i also don't know why you think you 'deserve' anything. if you happen to acquire something, that's yours and that's fine. but i certainly don't owe you anything (except basic human decency etc.) just because you exist.. | 15:59 |
| jonathan_ | not sure what your college degree is in, but being white u.s. born is a handicap. | 15:59 |
| juri_ | wow. | 15:59 |
| jonathan_ | and male too | 15:59 |
| jonathan_ | how come the female classmates got better grades, was it because they went into office hours and the instructors felt more inclined to revise their scores in some cases? you bet | 16:00 |
| juri_ | wow. i'm seriously running out of methods for responding. | 16:00 |
| @kanzure | juri_: it's okay. he's a long-term project. he's been with us for years and he'll continue to be. so you don't have to fix this right now. | 16:01 |
| juri_ | kanzure: thanks. i appreciate that. i just ran through my usual methods, and came up empty. ;) | 16:02 |
| jonathan_ | "you had more out of the gate than others. " i really consider that to be insulting. | 16:02 |
| juri_ | it was a leap, but it seems to have been on target. | 16:03 |
| @kanzure | well a minute ago you were calling me evil for having $100 million in inheritance | 16:03 |
| @kanzure | so.. your opinion seems to have changed. | 16:03 |
| jonathan_ | ha, you take jokes so literally it's funny | 16:03 |
| @kanzure | your jokes are bad :( | 16:03 |
| jonathan_ | everybody knows you're evil, right? | 16:03 |
| Adifex | Everyone. | 16:03 |
| jonathan_ | gradstudentbot isn't kanzure evil? | 16:04 |
| gradstudentbot | The protocol is wrong. | 16:04 |
| jonathan_ | see! | 16:04 |
| juri_ | ok everyone, back to hacking things. ;) | 16:04 |
| @kanzure | juri_: do you feel like messing around with C things for like 10 minutes. | 16:05 |
| juri_ | maybe. whatcha got? | 16:05 |
| jonathan_ | where's that recent study that showed money resulted in extreme bias in double blind studies.. | 16:05 |
| juri_ | oh, did i ever show you the new demo of GNU GIFT? | 16:05 |
| juri_ | if you're interested in feature extraction based methods of image matching, you should check out the new gift demo. | 16:06 |
| juri_ | i ALMOST made it a useful web site, for getting work done. | 16:06 |
| juri_ | i still have two missing features, then i can let the public at it. | 16:06 |
| @kanzure | juri_: https://github.com/kanzure/seed/commits/develop | 16:08 |
| @kanzure | juri_: https://github.com/kanzure/seed/commit/d5bcaea5db544619f1ec1b89e17126d5eee19734 | 16:09 |
| @kanzure | juri_: gnome-seed compiles successfuly (./autogen.sh and such), builds seed/src/.libs/seed which when executed brings up a javascript repl | 16:09 |
| @kanzure | and my commit there is supposed to make a function called imports.compile() that accepts a string of javascript. so: imports.compile("var x = 5;") | 16:09 |
| @kanzure | but for some reason what i have done is wrong, it claims: TypeError '[object GlobalObject]' is not a function (evaluating 'imports.compile("x")') | 16:10 |
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| @kanzure | this seems to be relevant documentation | 16:12 |
| @kanzure | http://developer.apple.com/library/mac/#documentation/JavaScriptCore/Reference/JSObjectRef_header_reference/Reference/reference.html | 16:12 |
| @kanzure | apple uses JavaScriptCore and i guess they have this documentation up for whatever reason | 16:12 |
| @kanzure | (i'm not sure why webkit.org doesn't host its own docs for this) | 16:12 |
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| juri_ | mmm. | 16:15 |
| juri_ | sure, i've got a few, let me take a peek. :) | 16:15 |
| @kanzure | i think i'm probably just using the wrong function here | 16:15 |
| @kanzure | maybe JSObjectMakeFunctionWithCallback is wrong. | 16:15 |
| gradstudentbot | The gel is streaking. | 16:17 |
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| juri_ | mmm. | 16:20 |
| juri_ | reading through the source, my guess is actually that the typecast you're using has issues. | 16:21 |
| @kanzure | my typecast is a completely uninformed decision | 16:21 |
| juri_ | i really don't see you doing anything else that should be 'wrong'. you're following all the code paterns of the code around you. | 16:21 |
| juri_ | what is that typecast supposed to be doing? to me, it seems named the ob i would expect an assembly function (and therefore macro or somesuch) to do. | 16:22 |
| @kanzure | i need to pass the actual function that i want called when someone calls that object-as-a-function in jsland | 16:22 |
| juri_ | to me, that seems to be the javascript-to-c-glue, which should be more complicated than a typecast. | 16:22 |
| @kanzure | my goal is to attach my function on to an object and make it callable, arguments and everything. | 16:22 |
| @kanzure | oh. | 16:22 |
| @kanzure | es, it's the javascript-to-c glue. | 16:22 |
| @kanzure | +y | 16:23 |
| @kanzure | the only other stuff in this file is javascript class definition, which seems to work differently | 16:23 |
| juri_ | so, instead of a cast there, i know as an outside programmer, i expect to see a macro, or a function. | 16:23 |
| @kanzure | see importer_class_def | 16:23 |
| @kanzure | i see. maybe i should just make it a class and see how that works out for me. | 16:24 |
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| juri_ | that seems to be the direction this code is going. | 16:24 |
| gradstudentbot | Yeah, that's a really good question. I don't know, but I'll have to look into that. | 16:25 |
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| @kanzure | hmm. so i tried seed_importer_handle_source in the class defs for /* Call As Function */ | 16:27 |
| @kanzure | and i still get TypeError '[object gi_importer]' is not a function (evaluating 'imports.gi()') | 16:27 |
| @kanzure | "13.2 Lessee shall not use, nor permit the use of, the Premises other than as described in Paragraph 13.1 above. In any case where Lessee is, or should reasonably be, in doubt as to the propriety of any particular use, Lessee may request, and will not be in breach of default if Lessee abides by, the written determination of the Municipal Property Manager that such use is or is not permitted." | 16:39 |
| gradstudentbot | You can't guarantee that. | 16:40 |
| @kanzure | "15.6 Develop revenue streams from membership fees, corporate sponsors, crowdfunding, direct donations, event fees, course fees and grants." | 16:42 |
| brownies | kanzure: what're you quoting? | 16:43 |
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| @kanzure | "In its first year, the community lab will be staffed by volunteers working without pay." | 16:49 |
| @kanzure | brownies: i'm reading from http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/diybio/biotechnbeyond-resolution-2013-029.pdf | 16:49 |
| juri_ | ARGH. | 16:57 |
| juri_ | i just got my ass chewed for a half hour for trying to be helpful. :/ | 16:57 |
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| juri_ | http://sealedabstract.com/rants/why-mobile-web-apps-are-slow/ | 17:19 |
| @kanzure | there are many reasons | 17:22 |
| @kanzure | in old versions of phonegap there was this problem where they literally broke how clicks were handled and added like 250 milliseconds to responses | 17:22 |
| @kanzure | that's a good writeup though. seems to be missing some of these points. | 17:24 |
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| @kanzure | "For example, the iPhone 4S snaps photos at 3264×2448 resolution. That’s over 30 megabytes of bitmap data per photo. That’s a warning for having just two photos in memory and you get killed for having 7 photos in RAM. Oh, you were going to write a for loop that iterated over an album? Killed." | 17:27 |
| @kanzure | but that's programming wrong on mobile | 17:27 |
| @kanzure | you would only load one photo at a time in that for loo | 17:27 |
| @kanzure | +p | 17:27 |
| @kanzure | "Let’s take another example. On the iPad 3, you are driving a display that probably has more pixels in it than the display on your desktop (it’s between 2K and 4K resolution, in the ballpark with pro cinema). Each frame that you show on that display is a 12MB bitmap. If you’re going to be a good memory citizen you can store roughly 45 frames of uncompressed video or animation buffer in memory at a time, which is about 1.5 seconds at ... | 17:30 |
| @kanzure | ... 30fps, or .75 seconds at the system’s 60Hz. Accidentally buffer a second of full-screen animation? App killed. And it’s worth pointing out, the latency of AirPlay is 2 seconds, so for any kind of media application, you are actually guaranteed to not have enough memory." | 17:30 |
| @kanzure | "And we are in roughly the same situation here that we are in with the multiple copies of the photos. For example, Apple says that “Every UIView is backed with a CALayer and images as layer contents remain in memory as long as the CALayer stays in the hierarchy.” What this means, essentially, is that there can be many intermediate renderings–essentially copies–of your view hierarchy that are stored in memory." | 17:30 |
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| @kanzure | "If you want to process camera images on Android phones for real-time object recognition or content based Augmented Reality you probably heard about the Camera Preview Callback memory Issue. Each time your Java application gets a preview image from the system a new chunk of memory is allocated. When this memory chunk gets freed again by the Garbage Collector the system freezes for 100ms-200ms. This is especially bad if the system is under ... | 17:33 |
| @kanzure | ... heavy load (I do object recognition on a phone – hooray it eats as much CPU power as possible). If you browse through Android’s 1.6 source code you realize that this is only because the wrapper (that protects us from the native stuff) allocates a new byte array each time a new frame is available. Build-in native code can, of course, avoid this issue." | 17:33 |
| @kanzure | huh, the garbage collector freezes the kernel? that doesn't sound right. maybe they fixed that bug in android 2.x or android 4.x.. | 17:33 |
| gradstudentbot | The paper got rejected. | 17:33 |
| @kanzure | "I’ve worked on Java mobile games… The best way to avoid GC’ing objects (which in turn shall trigger the GC at one point or another and shall kill your game’s perfs) is simply to avoid creating them in your main game loop in the first place. There’s no “clean” way to deal with this… Manual tracking of objects, sadly. This how it’s done on most current well-performing Java games that are out on mobile devices." | 17:35 |
| jonathan_ | java != speed | 17:37 |
| juri_ | javascript != java. | 17:37 |
| @kanzure | mobile web apps, generally refers to javascript | 17:39 |
| @kanzure | "So anyway, here’s where we’re at: some of the best Ruby developers in the world have forked the language specifically for use on mobile devices, and they have designed a system that both crashes and leaks, which is the complete set of memory errors that you could possibly experience. So far they have not been able to do anything about it, although they have undoubtedly been trying very hard. Oh, and they are reporting that they ... | 17:40 |
| @kanzure | ... “personally tried a few times to fix it, but wasn’t able to come with a good solution that would also perserve performance.”" | 17:40 |
| @kanzure | ah yes. the signs of a high quality project. | 17:40 |
| gradstudentbot | I had to remind my professor who I was today. | 17:40 |
| jonathan_ | C == speed | 17:44 |
| brownies | kanzure: eh? is that last part about RubyMotion? or what? | 17:52 |
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| jonathan_ | anyone here planning on buying a new mac pro? | 17:59 |
| jonathan_ | would certainly streamline video editing | 18:07 |
| ParahSail1n | conflict electronics? nothx | 18:07 |
| @kanzure | conflict? | 18:07 |
| @kanzure | brownies: yes | 18:07 |
| ParahSail1n | patent troll | 18:07 |
| @kanzure | jonathan_: you can build better workstations for cheaper, yadda yadda | 18:07 |
| @kanzure | if you're going to spend $5000 on a computer you might as well get your money's worth | 18:08 |
| jonathan_ | nah i'm done with "omg i'm gonna build my own" | 18:08 |
| jonathan_ | i dunno the price tag | 18:08 |
| jonathan_ | i bet price is very competitive | 18:09 |
| juri_ | i custom build everything, so i can get the flexibility i want. coreboot supported boards are a winner. | 18:10 |
| juri_ | for instance, i'm dropping a quad-core opteron, in a motherboard which according to the vendor, supports neither quads, nor opterons. | 18:10 |
| @kanzure | is it possible that the vendor has more information than you | 18:12 |
| jonathan_ | previously i used vimeo, youtube i dont like much. any other favorite vid hosting services? | 18:12 |
| @kanzure | oh, the links i gave you weren't favorites, just shit i knew | 18:12 |
| @kanzure | sorry about the crap you got from livestream :( | 18:12 |
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| jonathan_ | i'm editing this vid myself so just will host it somewheres | 18:13 |
| @kanzure | justin.tv? | 18:13 |
| jonathan_ | ustream seems free but "ad supported" | 18:13 |
| @kanzure | you can go japanese.. http://nicovideo.jp/ | 18:13 |
| jonathan_ | the google hangout was surprisingly good integration, just press 'go' and vid was streaming + archived | 18:13 |
| @kanzure | or chinese.. http://tudou.com/ | 18:13 |
| @kanzure | or http://www.youku.com/ but it's essentially tudou these days | 18:14 |
| @kanzure | after their merger. | 18:15 |
| jonathan_ | what is justin.tv? | 18:15 |
| @kanzure | another live video streamer thingy | 18:15 |
| @kanzure | .title http://ex.nicovideo.jp/vocanico/ | 18:19 |
| yoleaux | ボカニコナイト-VocaNicoNight- Official Website | 18:19 |
| @kanzure | oh man look at all the random vocaloid crap you've been missing (??) | 18:19 |
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| @kanzure | phillyj: yo | 18:21 |
| jonathan_ | wow rock on | 18:21 |
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| @kanzure | .title http://www.nicovideo.jp/watch/1373616320 | 18:22 |
| yoleaux | 8/16開催「VocaNicoNight4 -SummerParty2013-」出演者発表トレイラー ‐ ニコニコ動画:Q | 18:22 |
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| juri_ | kanzure: i used to run a 1.4Ghz P4 in my asus p2b. market segmentation is for users. | 18:31 |
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| @kanzure | paperbot: http://jama.jamanetwork.com/article.aspx?articleid=358496 | 18:39 |
| paperbot | http://libgen.org/scimag/get.php?doi=10.1001%2Fjama.1970.03180110035007 | 18:39 |
| jonathan_ | should i click the video. should i click the video. should i click the video | 18:44 |
| jonathan_ | OK OK i clicked the video | 18:44 |
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| * brownies pokes gradstudentbot | 18:45 | |
| gradstudentbot | I am busy doing science, go away. | 18:45 |
| brownies | how appropriate. | 18:45 |
| gradstudentbot | Sorry, I can't really talk right now because I'm burried in grant writing. | 18:45 |
| brownies | that sounds un-burr-able | 18:45 |
| jonathan_ | hey that video looks a lot like my lab video! cool | 18:45 |
| jonathan_ | welll ok not so much | 18:46 |
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| jonathan_ | http://storify.com/HackYourPhd/hyphdus-biotechandbeyond-opening-citizen-science | 19:09 |
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| @kanzure | http://crypto.stackexchange.com/questions/9210/technical-feasibility-of-decrypting-https-by-replacing-the-computers-prng/9212 | 19:46 |
| jonathan_ | Um | 20:14 |
| jonathan_ | timestamp is used as random number seed so why would this be an issue | 20:14 |
| jonathan_ | lets say theres a silicon bug and it's not really random but is only 2^8 repeating values or something. so what, only bad software would use the value directly without using timestamp or other input. | 20:15 |
| jonathan_ | even if it is a predictable value there would still be a large dictionary involved so cracking would not be instantaneous. | 20:16 |
| jonathan_ | anythning on stackexchange or stackoverflow is suspect imho | 20:16 |
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| cpopell | Greetings, folks! | 20:30 |
| cpopell | As promised in the past, if your thing is electrohydrodynamics or femtoliter droplet impact, poke me and I have a pdf to send you. | 20:30 |
| ParahSail1n | post it | 20:32 |
| cpopell | It's not up online yet. | 20:33 |
| ParahSail1n | well put it there? or is this pre-print? | 20:33 |
| cpopell | pre-print | 20:34 |
| cpopell | I'm offering a direct send of my masters thesis | 20:34 |
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| jonathan_ | i dont even know what electrohydrodynamics means | 20:40 |
| cpopell | affecting fluids with electricity | 20:41 |
| jonathan_ | is it related to surfing by chance? | 20:41 |
| jonathan_ | coincidentally i did some electrowetting stuff | 20:41 |
| jonathan_ | just answer yes or no, does your stuff work? | 20:42 |
| cpopell | yes | 20:42 |
| jonathan_ | then, congrats | 20:42 |
| cpopell | thanks :D | 20:44 |
| cpopell | <15% error | 20:44 |
| jonathan_ | is it done in air and if so how do you handle evaporation | 20:44 |
| cpopell | near field | 20:44 |
| cpopell | 90-200um standoff | 20:44 |
| jonathan_ | send me the pdf i'll have a look. jcline@ieee.org | 20:45 |
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| jonathan_ | i hope it doesn't have many big words like electohydrodynamics tho | 20:45 |
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| @kanzure | what is the expected food output per day of something like http://automicrofarm.com/ ? | 21:11 |
| @kanzure | i think this is ph0rque | 21:12 |
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| yashgaroth | 50-100 | 21:33 |
| yashgaroth | kcal | 21:33 |
| jonathan_ | "US Homeland Security Secretary Janet Napolitano has said she will step down to become the next president of the University of California system." ... what the... | 21:34 |
| jonathan_ | paperbot is quaking in his boots right now | 21:37 |
| cpopell | yash | 21:37 |
| cpopell | hi | 21:37 |
| cpopell | long time no see buddy | 21:37 |
| yashgaroth | sup mang | 21:37 |
| cpopell | I got a futurist gf, and a paying contract | 21:38 |
| cpopell | most of my time = gone | 21:38 |
| yashgaroth | haha | 21:38 |
| yashgaroth | you in dc still? | 21:38 |
| cpopell | yeah | 21:38 |
| yashgaroth | had the lab opening in carlsbad, lots of people and leftover alcohol | 21:40 |
| jonathan_ | today's vocabulary word is surface energy. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Surface_energy | 21:41 |
| cpopell | :V | 21:41 |
| jonathan_ | what 'energy' is given off when two droplets touch each other? | 21:43 |
| jonathan_ | i guess it disperses by vibration on the surface or something eh | 21:43 |
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| davidokner | Hi | 21:47 |
| yashgaroth | hello | 21:48 |
| davidokner | I have a medical problem I can't figure out. | 21:48 |
| juri_ | so say we all. | 21:48 |
| davidokner | I think it was caused by antibiotics | 21:48 |
| davidokner | This is what happened. | 21:49 |
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| davidokner | I had a bad case of myofascial pain syndrome and my message therapist reffered me to a doctor to get tested for any underlying medical conditions that could be perpetuating factors. | 21:49 |
| davidokner | That doctor tested me for Lyme disease and it came back positive, but it was not the standard test. | 21:49 |
| davidokner | I looked into it and found out there was this non-standard lyme disease thing and found another doctor in my area that just treated for that thinking it couldn't hurt to try. | 21:50 |
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| davidokner | Well, he prescribed me three antibiotics Rifampin, Bactrim and Minicyclin and after a couple weeks I started to feel these weird sensations all over my body like snow flakes, bee stings, burning, water drops etc. | 21:51 |
| davidokner | I told the doctor and he said it was just the Lyme disease. After a couple of months of talking to people in that community I decided it was nonsense and stopped going. | 21:51 |
| davidokner | I found out it was neuropathies or paresthesias all over. It lasted for over 6 months after stopping the antibiotics and I went to Johns Hopkins and they said it was probably immune mediated small fiber neuropathy. | 21:52 |
| davidokner | Within a year from that it finally went away and I was happy. THEN, it just came back a week ago when I got a bad cold. | 21:52 |
| davidokner | Now, I have burning paresthesias all over again. | 21:52 |
| davidokner | water, stinging etc | 21:53 |
| davidokner | I think I got really screwed by that doctor. | 21:53 |
| yashgaroth | did you go see another doctor | 21:53 |
| davidokner | I went to the neurologist at Hopkins | 21:53 |
| davidokner | He just said it was immune mediated small fiber neuropathy and discharged me after a negative skin biopsy. | 21:54 |
| davidokner | I didn't review the results with my primary doctor because I couldn't take the stress of it anymore and it finally went away. | 21:54 |
| davidokner | But, now I'm going to my primary doctor to talk about it because it came back. | 21:54 |
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| yashgaroth | I have to ask, why did you choose this channel to ask? | 21:55 |
| davidokner | I asked in my community channel and somebody said I should ask here. | 21:55 |
| davidokner | Oh, he says he met a guy at a conference and knew about this channel. | 21:56 |
| yashgaroth | well I don't think anyone here is a doctor except rigel, but I recommend immunosuppressants | 21:56 |
| davidokner | Yeah, that is what I was thinking the first time. Only problem is that if it has changed my immune system it will just keep coming back if there is a trigger. | 21:56 |
| davidokner | Also, no way to know how long to take them and it is dangerous to take them. | 21:57 |
| yashgaroth | well try aspirin and see if it helps | 21:57 |
| cpopell | there's always metamed if you're wrought with spare cash | 21:57 |
| davidokner | I just googled that. What is that? | 21:58 |
| cpopell | custom medical solution company | 21:58 |
| davidokner | Very expensive I would guess? | 21:58 |
| cpopell | involving a lot from the futurist community | 21:58 |
| yashgaroth | you pay them to pay doctors for their opinions | 21:58 |
| cpopell | I think their lower bound on pricing is like 5k | 21:58 |
| cpopell | you pay them to do a full lit search | 21:58 |
| ParahSail1n | dont push metamed | 21:59 |
| davidokner | All I know is stay away from these Lyme disease doctors. They are quacks and dangerous. | 21:59 |
| davidokner | This has totally scared the hell out of me. | 21:59 |
| yashgaroth | there is a lot of quackery in lyme disease | 22:00 |
| cpopell | ParahSail1n: Despite my best efforts, they aren't paying me to do sales for them :( | 22:00 |
| davidokner | If you guys want to live longer then the best thing for that is a free society. | 22:00 |
| cpopell | let's not do politics | 22:01 |
| davidokner | Medical advancements won't come without the right philosophy as the foundation of a society that can foster those advances. | 22:01 |
| cpopell | especially since plenty of medical advancements are being made | 22:01 |
| davidokner | I have a website that talks about the philosohpy of Western Civilization called Objective Freedom. | 22:01 |
| yashgaroth | oh good | 22:01 |
| cpopell | Oh dear. | 22:02 |
| jonathan_ | so do I ! | 22:02 |
| davidokner | oh ok. But that is the most powerful thing I think, the fundimental driver. | 22:02 |
| jonathan_ | http://wikipedia.org | 22:02 |
| yashgaroth | great, it's me in here with the channel's three libertarians | 22:02 |
| cpopell | Yashgaroth, I'm not a libertarian :P | 22:03 |
| yashgaroth | uh huh sure | 22:03 |
| davidokner | let me just say I'm not libertarian. | 22:03 |
| cpopell | libertarians don't support mincome | 22:03 |
| cpopell | and don't support invasions >_> | 22:03 |
| jonathan_ | david you lost me on this part "my message therapist reffered me to a doctor" | 22:03 |
| davidokner | jonathan_: She told me the name of a doctor I should see to make sure I don't have any health problems that could be causing this. | 22:04 |
| jonathan_ | a massage therapist? referral? | 22:04 |
| davidokner | I had already seen tons of doctors who couldn't tell me why I had the previous health problem. | 22:04 |
| davidokner | jonathan_: She gave me his business card or name just like any regular person can. | 22:04 |
| jonathan_ | oh | 22:05 |
| jonathan_ | how many are "tons" ? | 22:05 |
| davidokner | like 20 or something | 22:05 |
| davidokner | It was just myofascial pain syndrome, but nobody could recognize it. | 22:05 |
| jonathan_ | I dont think you mentioned "the previous health problem" | 22:05 |
| davidokner | I didn't. I had many problems from myofascial pain syndrome. | 22:06 |
| davidokner | It is trigger points in the muscles, but it can cause strange symptoms. | 22:06 |
| davidokner | I was getting dizzy, balance problems, pain in neck jaw, random ice pick stabbing in head, vision problems, tinnitus (ringing in the ear). Really bad burning pain between shoulder blades etc. | 22:06 |
| davidokner | It was just a problem with muscles which can be treated and isn't THAT scary if you know what it is. | 22:07 |
| davidokner | But, the new condition I got as a result of being told I have Lyme disease screwed me up. | 22:07 |
| ParahSail1n | so you dont/didn't have lyme? | 22:08 |
| davidokner | No, I never had Lyme. These alternative medcine doctors were just crazy and gave me some auto-immune neurological disease. | 22:08 |
| davidokner | I would have been happy with just the myofascial pain syndrome and treatig that with physical therapy. | 22:09 |
| davidokner | They give you this bogus test and then give you tons of antibiotics, which in my case it looks like it altered my immune system. | 22:09 |
| gradstudentbot | I have to order new primers. | 22:09 |
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| ParahSail1n | did they test serum for antibodies against the species? | 22:10 |
| jonathan_ | well. typically when i go to the doctor and they mention I should take something I start asking a lot of deep questions and the doctor quickly asks what I do for a living and I say, "I'm an engineer" and then the doctor sighs and says "Oh." and gives up pushing his non-cure on me. | 22:10 |
| davidokner | Yes, but the test these doctors use is not the scientific valid one. It uses antibodies which are not proven to be evidence of Lyme. | 22:10 |
| ParahSail1n | antibodies against what? | 22:11 |
| ParahSail1n | some borrelia antigen? | 22:11 |
| davidokner | jonathan_: Well when I had been though hell with the symptoms and thought they were telling me the truth I thought it couldn't hurt to see if it worked. | 22:11 |
| davidokner | Yes, and other co-infections too. Bartonella. | 22:11 |
| davidokner | They said I had like at least 2 things. | 22:12 |
| davidokner | It is a very dangerous thing going on with these doctors. It is HUGE with the doctors and the patients community. | 22:12 |
| davidokner | Now I have no way to see exactly what changed my immune system and change it back. | 22:12 |
| davidokner | What I would need to do is verify the proteins in the peripheral nerves and find the antibody for that and then use some un-released technology to retrain my system not to attack that. | 22:13 |
| davidokner | Basically the same thing they are making for people with MS. | 22:13 |
| davidokner | The are going to do just that with MS using nano-particles. | 22:14 |
| ParahSail1n | if you want shady medicine done, this is probably the right place | 22:15 |
| cpopell | that's silly | 22:15 |
| cpopell | that would be biohack.me :P | 22:15 |
| yashgaroth | that's for shady surgery | 22:15 |
| davidokner | I don't want shady medicine done, that is what was done to me. | 22:15 |
| davidokner | http://www.webmd.com/multiple-sclerosis/news/20121115/nanoparticles-show-potential-for-treating-ms | 22:15 |
| yashgaroth | there's a difference between bogus and shady | 22:16 |
| davidokner | That is how they think they could retrain the immune system for MS and use it for any auto-immune disease. | 22:16 |
| davidokner | What I got was bogus and dangerous. | 22:16 |
| davidokner | I just didn't realize how dangerous antibiotics could be. | 22:16 |
| jonathan_ | presumably you've tried many probiotics already? | 22:16 |
| davidokner | No, but they never said neuropathy was caused by or could be helped by pro-biotics. | 22:17 |
| davidokner | I'd think that would have regrown by now if that were the problem. | 22:17 |
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| jonathan_ | well isn't it a far simpler solution? | 22:18 |
| jonathan_ | and relatively harmless to try I'd assume | 22:19 |
| davidokner | I think they are very safe though. | 22:19 |
| davidokner | Well, I took pro-biotics during the anti-biotics | 22:19 |
| jonathan_ | "regrown by now " not sure about that | 22:19 |
| davidokner | The thing driving me crazy is that I don't have answers and everything is just guessing. | 22:20 |
| jonathan_ | what's easier.. pursuing some crazy radical medical procedure or eating a bunch of unwashed veggies..? | 22:20 |
| @fenn | try probiotics with l. sporogenes | 22:20 |
| jonathan_ | try eating everything.. | 22:20 |
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| jonathan_ | you'd love certain circles with fecal transplants lol | 22:20 |
| @fenn | sure why not | 22:20 |
| jonathan_ | it's far less risky than some emerging medical stuff only tested on mice or such so far | 22:21 |
| davidokner | I heard about fecal transplants. | 22:21 |
| davidokner | I wonder if that has worked for auto-immune stuff? | 22:21 |
| davidokner | I heard it used for something that was antibiotic resistant. | 22:22 |
| jonathan_ | go on a spree and eat everything possible that's fermented | 22:22 |
| @fenn | so, uh, you think antibiotics caused an autoimmune disorder? that doesn't make sense to me | 22:22 |
| davidokner | @fenn: Really? Why not? | 22:23 |
| davidokner | @fenn: Do you think it is immune? | 22:23 |
| davidokner | If it is immune I think it was the anti-biotics. | 22:23 |
| davidokner | I'd be happy if it was something non-immune related. | 22:24 |
| @fenn | so, 1) you have symptoms 2) see a quack doctor 3) take antibiotics 4) develop more symptoms | 22:24 |
| @fenn | it doesn't necessarily mean that your symptoms are caused by the antibiotics, it could just be further progression of the initial disease | 22:25 |
| davidokner | @fenn: I had myofascial pain, that is just trigger points. That doesn't cause body wide paresthesias. | 22:25 |
| @fenn | myofascial pain is a symptom | 22:25 |
| jonathan_ | yea | 22:25 |
| davidokner | @fenn: Yes, that is possible, but now I can't say for sure beause I went to the Lyme Doctor. Also, lots of people get TMJ disfunction or neck pain and that is not auto-immune neuropathy early symptom. | 22:25 |
| @fenn | do you have memory problems? | 22:26 |
| davidokner | @fenn: No, my memory is great and I have great energy. | 22:26 |
| davidokner | @fenn: I took minocycline, bactrim and rifampin (the antibiotic for TB) all at the same time. | 22:26 |
| gradstudentbot | Well, it looks better if you see it through a UV scope. | 22:27 |
| jonathan_ | reminds me of the dude who had the gum disease and went thru all these rounds of discussions and at the end said " ok but I'm not going to stop smoking " | 22:27 |
| davidokner | Almost right away I developed the paresthesias all over. | 22:27 |
| davidokner | Well, I'm not smoking or doing anything harmfull to my body. | 22:27 |
| @fenn | have you been tested for MS? | 22:28 |
| davidokner | I was tested prior to the paresthesia, but I don't think since. I probably could get tested. | 22:28 |
| davidokner | I was tested for that when I was having the other problems, which turned out to just be caused by trigger points | 22:29 |
| davidokner | Some trigger points cause some pretty alarming things. | 22:29 |
| jonathan_ | MRI ? | 22:29 |
| davidokner | I had an MRI back then. I could get another. | 22:29 |
| davidokner | I don't think the Johns Hopkins neurologist thought I needed one at the time. | 22:30 |
| davidokner | Some people with MS have some of the paresthesias I get. | 22:30 |
| davidokner | I've read on forums. But others have them and don't have MS | 22:31 |
| davidokner | I found one person who got it after taking Bactrim. | 22:31 |
| jonathan_ | acupuncture? | 22:31 |
| davidokner | No, I won't do that. | 22:31 |
| davidokner | It is random nerve stuff and accupuncture is nonsense anyway. | 22:32 |
| @fenn | hm. acupuncture is sometimes helpful for this sort of peripheral nerve stuff | 22:32 |
| davidokner | Don't let your friends and family fall for this "chronic lyme disease" stuff | 22:32 |
| @fenn | lyme is trivial to diagnose with PCR, either you have it or you don't | 22:32 |
| davidokner | Mine isn't located anywhere specific. It is just random pin pricks all over. | 22:33 |
| jonathan_ | seems to me acupuncture is far easier to do as well. even tho it's nonsense. sometimes it works. placebo effect. you dont have to believe it. | 22:33 |
| davidokner | I did something similar to acupuncture for the other condition. It is called Dry Needling. | 22:33 |
| davidokner | So, I've already had that done lots and decided it is not the best treatment for the first condition. | 22:34 |
| @fenn | if you have MS, acupuncture won't help | 22:34 |
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| jonathan_ | assuming you did have lyme disease. where'd you get it from? | 22:36 |
| @fenn | "Using the conventional PCR as the gold standard, the diagnostic sensitivity and specificity for detection of Borrelia burgdorferi was as follows: synovial fluid (98.1%; 100%), whole blood (100%; 100%), and CSF (80%; 100%)." | 22:36 |
| davidokner | You just get it from being outside in grassy or wooded areas from a tick. | 22:36 |
| @fenn | so i guess the problem is if it's Borrelia afzelii or Borrelia garinii | 22:37 |
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| davidokner | This new lyme movement tries to tell you that you get it and you don't always get the symptoms and realize it. | 22:37 |
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| davidokner | Or you think you just have the flu or I don't know. I can't believe I fell for it. I was just hurting bad at the time so I was not thinking clearly. | 22:37 |
| jonathan_ | Lupus? | 22:38 |
| @fenn | not thinking clearly is a symptom of MS | 22:38 |
| davidokner | Not like that fenn. I was desperate I mean and if a doctor tells you something they might be right. | 22:39 |
| jonathan_ | I think you will be worse if you keep listening to us lol | 22:39 |
| davidokner | I know about lupus. My doctor will hopefully think of that. | 22:39 |
| yashgaroth | I still recommend aspirin, and maybe some black market etanercept | 22:39 |
| davidokner | How does asprin make sense? | 22:39 |
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| @fenn | http://korrektivpress.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/05/Its-not-lupus-Its-never-lupus.jpg | 22:39 |
| yashgaroth | it's an anti-inflammatory and it's very safe so why not | 22:40 |
| @fenn | davidokner: inflammation is an immune response | 22:40 |
| yashgaroth | also the one disease with more bullshit around it than lyme is lupus | 22:40 |
| davidokner | Its "LDD". "Lyme Doctor Disease". | 22:40 |
| jonathan_ | why on earth would lyme disease be a conspiracy of doctors. i thought it always occurred with a rash. | 22:41 |
| jonathan_ | period end of story | 22:41 |
| davidokner | There is a real Lyme disease and this new fake one. | 22:41 |
| jonathan_ | where do you live? | 22:41 |
| jonathan_ | ie are these doctors in major cities etc | 22:42 |
| davidokner | What the chronic Lyme doctors? I'm near DC. | 22:42 |
| davidokner | They are all over the place. I think there are like 4 in my area. | 22:43 |
| davidokner | Just search the internet for | 22:43 |
| davidokner | "LLMD" Lyme Literate MD. That is this new fake Lyme disease. | 22:43 |
| jonathan_ | interesting | 22:43 |
| davidokner | People have real health problems some of them and they end up there because the real doctors ignore their patients until they end up going to these quacks who pay attention. | 22:44 |
| davidokner | Like me I had myofascial pain syndrome and the doctors couldn't figure it out or just dismissed it. | 22:44 |
| davidokner | And that is how I ended up going down the wrong path to the disreputable doctor who said I had Lyme Disease. | 22:45 |
| * fenn yawns | 22:46 | |
| cpopell | david, I'm also DC local | 22:46 |
| @fenn | have you seen any cicadas yet? there are supposed to be billions out right now, but i haven't seen a single one | 22:46 |
| jonathan_ | hm, i wonder if you would get a different opinion in canada | 22:47 |
| davidokner | Opinion about Lyme disease or what I have now? | 22:47 |
| davidokner | best places are probably Johns Hopkins and Mayo Clinic. | 22:48 |
| jonathan_ | i wonder if you could get metagenomic sequences to find out which probiotics you need. | 22:49 |
| davidokner | Some people are using hook worms for auto-immune. Its a trial | 22:49 |
| davidokner | I think probiotics don't work for that. | 22:49 |
| @fenn | hookworms are worth looking into | 22:50 |
| davidokner | I did read a canada story that said they are synthesizing the feal transplant and it can be customized. | 22:50 |
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| davidokner | @fenn: Aparently it suppresses the immune system. But I | 22:50 |
| cpopell | David, what part of DC? | 22:50 |
| davidokner | I'm not quite ready to do that and I don't think it is available. | 22:50 |
| davidokner | Arlington, VA | 22:50 |
| @fenn | relax, it's not like you're doing chemo | 22:50 |
| davidokner | It could be a lot worse. | 22:51 |
| jonathan_ | man... that's a convo topic. "which is better a fecal transplant or hookworm therapy?" | 22:51 |
| @fenn | hey i'm in arlington too. near glebe and lee hwy | 22:51 |
| cpopell | ah, I'm in McLean | 22:51 |
| cpopell | oh shit, fenn, you're near me? | 22:51 |
| yashgaroth | fenn what the shit are you doing in dc | 22:51 |
| @fenn | jonathan_: why not both? fecal transplant from someone with hookworm :P | 22:51 |
| davidokner | I could have something they know what it is and it is bad. That is worse | 22:51 |
| jonathan_ | jesus now i'm gonna have nightmares | 22:51 |
| @fenn | yashgaroth: wasting away... | 22:51 |
| yashgaroth | heh fair enough | 22:51 |
| davidokner | I'm in Ballston in Arlington. | 22:51 |
| jonathan_ | stay away, how do you know you're not contagious | 22:52 |
| davidokner | brb | 22:52 |
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| davidokner | Sleep time | 23:13 |
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