| --- Log opened Wed Sep 11 00:00:22 2013 | ||
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| kanzure | justanotheruser: you might have missed my messages, check the backlog: http://gnusha.org/logs/2013-09-10.log | 00:01 |
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| justanotheruser | seems like a mix of science/nanosystems and futurism/engines of creation | 00:05 |
| justanotheruser | referring to http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/nanotech/ | 00:05 |
| justanotheruser | but a good list of links, very interesting | 00:05 |
| justanotheruser | What are the prerequisites for reading these? I couldn't appreciate nanosystems until I took college physics | 00:06 |
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| justanotheruser | http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9aLAo0fZrJo | 00:12 |
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| nmz787 | .title | 01:23 |
| yoleaux | Cold Warning - Kinematic Self Replicating Machine - YouTube | 01:23 |
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| chris_99 | paperbot: http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v455/n7209/pdf/455028a.pdf | 07:15 |
| paperbot | http://libgen.org/scimag3/10.1038/455028a.pdf | 07:15 |
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| kanzure | juri_: if i was to want to write the most generic possible plugin that would work against as many EMR systems as possible, what would i do? | 09:33 |
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| poppingtonic | paperbot: http://www.mdpi.com/1424-2818/5/3/680/pdf | 09:40 |
| paperbot | http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/paperbot/82bb5c63c6f6e4cef83dd18ec73d7316.pdf | 09:40 |
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| anannie | hey is there a geneticist in the room? I have a question | 11:26 |
| kanzure | sup | 11:26 |
| kanzure | also: don't ask to ask | 11:27 |
| kanzure | also: if you have failure here then try #biology or ##bioinformatics | 11:27 |
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| anannie | Well the thing is that I'm having an argument with not so erudite scholars that we don't actually understand genetics as well as we like to think we do. We do not understand how networks of genes work to arise complex traits, what the "junk DNA" bits are, we don't know why spicing works as well as it does and saying that we will create a completely artificial life from *scratch* is just fool... | 11:29 |
| anannie | ...hardy at this point there's a lot of work to be done | 11:29 |
| anannie | Am I right or wrong? | 11:30 |
| kanzure | spicing? | 11:30 |
| anannie | * splicing | 11:30 |
| anannie | sorry the L key is sorta broken | 11:30 |
| kanzure | "artificial life from scratch" depends on what you mean by "from scratch" | 11:31 |
| kanzure | do you think "copying a dna molecule with a dna polymerase enzyme, except using man-made nucleotides that don't match nucleotides in nature, that still happens to be usable to build other enzmyes" counts as "from scratch" ? | 11:31 |
| anannie | think individual base pairs from scratch and evolving a completely new form of life | 11:31 |
| anannie | that's crazy | 11:31 |
| kanzure | dna doesn't create life. in particular there's no way to bootstrap a cell membrane from a dna molecule. | 11:31 |
| anannie | yes | 11:32 |
| kanzure | but why do you care, again? | 11:32 |
| kanzure | is he trying to argue that gibson asembly is fake, or what? | 11:32 |
| anannie | I do because I got into this idiotic argument and I like being right | 11:32 |
| anannie | I don't think he knows about the gibson assembly | 11:34 |
| anannie | he just thinks that we're 30 to 40 years from Strong AI and what not | 11:34 |
| anannie | I know science seems strong and awesome from the outside, but there's a lot of real work to be done | 11:35 |
| sbaugh | Science seems weak and inefficient even from the outside, could be doing a lot better | 11:36 |
| anannie | sbaugh: the layman reads these news saying that we'll be assembling bacteria soon or whatever and they believe it's going to happen the next day | 11:38 |
| anannie | it's never that easy | 11:38 |
| kanzure | what does "assembling bacteria" mean? | 11:40 |
| anannie | I have no clue | 11:40 |
| kanzure | okay. it's better to use specific terminology so that we can talk about real things. | 11:40 |
| anannie | he spouted that and I tried very hard not to laugh | 11:40 |
| sbaugh | Yes okay, I was talking about hobbyist or dilettante looking at academia | 11:40 |
| kanzure | so, personally, i think craig has been doing a disservice by calling it "artificial life" just because of chromosome-length dna assembly | 11:40 |
| kanzure | most people would associate artificial life with something that doesn't involve culturing pre-existing organisms | 11:41 |
| kanzure | but whatever, it's his PR nightmare | 11:41 |
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| FourFire | " anannie: he just thinks that we're 30 to 40 years from Strong AI and what not" tell your friend that Super Intelligent AI is mostly likely not for a good fifty years or so | 11:48 |
| FourFire | As for "new lifeforms from scratch" ... yeah that really depends on how you define it | 11:48 |
| anannie | FourFire: I told him that we don't know the algorithms to do strong AI neither do we know if current hardware is capable of non-linear decision making | 11:49 |
| FourFire | we have technically had useable artifical organisms since the 70s | 11:49 |
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| FourFire1 | yeah, the hardware doesn't really matter as much, as does the algorithms do | 11:52 |
| FourFire1 | if we could have the algorithms today for strong AI we could probably run it on today's hardware and get an out of control AI | 11:52 |
| anannie | yup | 11:52 |
| FourFire1 | the AI problem requires two things: brute force like hard work | 11:53 |
| FourFire1 | and magical insight and inspiration | 11:53 |
| FourFire1 | you can graph the first, but not the second | 11:53 |
| kanzure | can you two go to lesswrong to talk about that, they eat that crap up | 11:54 |
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| kanzure | i mean #lesswrong specifically | 11:54 |
| FourFire1 | yeah anannie come to #LessWrong if you'd like to discuss AI | 11:54 |
| kanzure | your arguments about strong ai are weak and uninformed | 11:54 |
| kanzure | so get the hell out :) | 11:55 |
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| anannie | kanzure: I'm not arguing anything. Just that if we knew the algorithms and had that magic we could probably do it right now and it's non-trivial and we don't even know how to get there | 11:55 |
| kanzure | that doesn't matter if your concern is "out of control" | 11:56 |
| kanzure | because we already have a lifeform that is reasonably intelligent (humans) that are currently out of control (you do not control them, thus it's "out of control") | 11:56 |
| anannie | I don't care about that. The chances of that happening are equivalent to the chances of me building a 747 in my backyard accidentally | 11:56 |
| kanzure | what is accidental about it | 11:56 |
| anannie | Most scenarios involve that | 11:57 |
| anannie | that we somehow stumble across something | 11:57 |
| anannie | and we do that | 11:57 |
| kanzure | sigh | 11:57 |
| kanzure | basically you're saying that because humans exist and are smart, you should murder all of them because they're out of control | 11:57 |
| kanzure | i don't entirely buy that argument | 11:57 |
| anannie | I don't either | 11:57 |
| kanzure | it has nothing to do with building a 747 | 11:57 |
| kanzure | people make humans all the time | 11:57 |
| anannie | I'm not talking about anything like that all I care about is building one someday | 11:58 |
| anannie | You're comparing me to the lesswrong crowd that just talks all day long and doesn't do anything practical beyond writing dissertations | 11:58 |
| kanzure | my point is that you're wrong about "the algorithms" being the only requirement for an "out of control" situation | 11:58 |
| gradstudentbot | None of my experiments are working. | 11:58 |
| kanzure | no i am not comparing you to lesswrong, what the fuck | 11:58 |
| kanzure | i didn't even say that | 11:59 |
| anannie | Ah okay | 11:59 |
| anannie | sorry | 11:59 |
| kanzure | 11:52 < FourFire1> if we could have the algorithms today for strong AI we could probably run it on today's hardware and get an out of control AI | 11:59 |
| kanzure | you already have people that exist that are "out of control" | 11:59 |
| gradstudentbot | Do I have to go through the IRB for that? | 11:59 |
| kanzure | yes | 11:59 |
| anannie | what are you trying to say... I'm pretty sure we agree on something, but I don't know what that thing is :) | 12:01 |
| gradstudentbot | So, I'll let you have my reagents when I'm done with my project. | 12:01 |
| kanzure | i don't know what you want from me right now | 12:03 |
| * anannie doesn't either | 12:04 | |
| anannie | This is weird | 12:04 |
| anannie | sorry if I wasted your time | 12:04 |
| FourFire | kanzure the human race is limited by our biology in our ability to conprehend and process information, if you had the action potential (not neurons) of a human being thinking at the speed of a computer... it's More out of control | 12:05 |
| FourFire | and if you have a super fast thinking human mind which can control robots and roam the internet... | 12:05 |
| kanzure | you don't need big computers to do terrible things | 12:06 |
| kanzure | big computers certainly help though | 12:06 |
| FourFire | yeah, so terrible things happen faster... which is bad | 12:07 |
| kanzure | in terms of your behavior, you shouldn't behave differently if you believe that a human will blow up the earth or an ai-- your solution will generally be the same (don't be on earth) (or kill all humans/machines) (one of these is easier) | 12:07 |
| FourFire | don't be on earth might be risky in the long term | 12:08 |
| kanzure | whatever, it was an example | 12:08 |
| FourFire | also have you seen http://everything2.com/title/How+to+destroy+the+Earth ? | 12:09 |
| kanzure | my favorite methods involve the moon | 12:10 |
| FourFire | haha | 12:14 |
| ParahSai1in | i just wont let the ai out of the box | 12:14 |
| ParahSai1in | easy solution | 12:14 |
| FourFire | ParahSai1lin yes... about that | 12:17 |
| FourFire | I'm currently personally aware of 13 AI-Box experiments and of those, four resulted in the AI being let out | 12:18 |
| ParahSai1in | i beat yudkowsky in aibox once | 12:19 |
| FourFire | good for you! what were the stakes? | 12:19 |
| ParahSai1in | earth | 12:20 |
| FourFire | pretty high stakes I'd say | 12:20 |
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| sbaugh | I love gradstudentbot | 12:54 |
| gradstudentbot | I feel like you don't completely comprehend the scope of this work. | 12:54 |
| kanzure | most poeple go for paperbot | 12:56 |
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| * brownies pokes gradstudentbot | 13:38 | |
| gradstudentbot | If you aren't busy, could you coauthor this paper with me? | 13:38 |
| brownies | gradstudentbot: sure. | 13:38 |
| brownies | oh, that shut him up. | 13:38 |
| gradstudentbot | Who the hell stole my pipette? | 13:39 |
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| kanzure | brownies: sometimes he is busy doing science and he takes a while to respond | 13:41 |
| * brownies pokes gradstudentbot | 13:44 | |
| gradstudentbot | When are you going to publish? | 13:44 |
| brownies | kanzure: "science"? likely story. | 13:44 |
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| kanzure | smeaaagle: hi | 13:45 |
| FourFire | Stand back... | 14:05 |
| FourFire | I'm going to try *Science* | 14:06 |
| kanzure | smeaaagle: aren't you from #veekun? | 14:06 |
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| kanzure | ugh google alerts has switched me back to html format apparently | 15:30 |
| kanzure | http://www.ietf.org/id/draft-hallambaker-prismproof-req-00.txt | 15:31 |
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| superkuh | paperbot: http://pop.aip.org/resource/1/phpaen/v20/i5/p055501_s1 | 16:37 |
| paperbot | http://libgen.org/scimag5/10.1063/1.4807033.pdf | 16:37 |
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| n_bentha | stupid machine...i ran a virtual machine on it w/ win xp, installed the nanodrop 1000 software, and then tried to get it to work, but it wouldn't discover the nanodrop >.< | 17:19 |
| kanzure | did you expose the interface to the vm | 17:23 |
| n_bentha | yes | 17:25 |
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| justanotheruser | Hello | 20:33 |
| kanzure | hi | 20:34 |
| justanotheruser | kanzure: what news source would you reccomend for transhumanism and nanotech related topics | 20:34 |
| kanzure | the best way to predict the future is to invent it | 20:35 |
| kanzure | everything else is ignorable | 20:35 |
| kanzure | i was highly involved in hplusmagazine for a while and i regret every second of it | 20:35 |
| kanzure | although if you absolutely must have a news source then i recommend transhumantech on postbiota.org | 20:35 |
| justanotheruser | Well did you dislike the magazine because they speculated? | 20:36 |
| kanzure | there are lots of reasons to dislike the magazine | 20:37 |
| kanzure | i'd rather not spread the dirt | 20:37 |
| justanotheruser | Also it looks like postbiota removed thier homepage | 20:37 |
| justanotheruser | I see | 20:37 |
| kanzure | homepages were never cool anyway | 20:37 |
| kanzure | http://google.com/search?q=transhumantech+postbiota.org | 20:37 |
| justanotheruser | lol | 20:37 |
| kanzure | http://postbiota.org/mailman/listinfo/tt | 20:38 |
| justanotheruser | Thanks | 20:38 |
| kanzure | http://postbiota.org/pipermail/tt/ | 20:38 |
| kanzure | in general, futurism news is terrible and should be avoided at all costs | 20:38 |
| kanzure | if you want biology stuff on the ground, try https://groups.google.com/group/diybio | 20:38 |
| gradstudentbot | Let's pour a bunch of chemlights into a spinner flask and claim it's luminescent e.coli. | 20:38 |
| justanotheruser | Well is it futurism news? I want news about scientific discoveries and creations | 20:39 |
| * brownies pokes gradstudentbot | 20:39 | |
| gradstudentbot | Don't you have anything better to be doing? | 20:39 |
| kanzure | scientific discovery news is all spun from university PR departments | 20:40 |
| kanzure | if you read the papers after a while you notice a trend that they just lie to you in the news | 20:40 |
| justanotheruser | Yeah I was hoping there was an outlier somewhere though. | 20:41 |
| kanzure | hm, sorry. maybe try #reddit or something. they like news. | 20:41 |
| kanzure | btw did you want me to dig up that mediawiki stuff? i forget if you were just asking, or needed it from me. | 20:42 |
| justanotheruser | You want me to go to reddit for news that isn't "spun"? | 20:42 |
| justanotheruser | /r/science finds a cure for cancer weekly | 20:43 |
| gene_hacker | read the damn journal papers not the press release | 20:43 |
| kanzure | the context is that i hate reddit | 20:43 |
| kanzure | and i hate news | 20:43 |
| kanzure | so i was telling you to go to reddit to get the two things i hate | 20:43 |
| kanzure | sorry if that wasn't clear | 20:43 |
| justanotheruser | oh, makes sense loll | 20:43 |
| kanzure | oh cool hi gene_hacker | 20:43 |
| gene_hacker | hey | 20:43 |
| kanzure | sup | 20:43 |
| gene_hacker | didn't you say you did stuff with nanorex at some point? | 20:44 |
| kanzure | i have been doing some python things against nanorex/nanoengineer for the past few years yes | 20:44 |
| kanzure | https://github.com/kanzure/nanoengineer | 20:44 |
| kanzure | btw i've been working on some python bindings to brlcad. i was going to tell matt when they were ready but since you're here... they work. | 20:44 |
| kanzure | and brlcad has nurbs support now | 20:45 |
| gene_hacker | is brlcad fast? | 20:45 |
| kanzure | it is very fast | 20:46 |
| gene_hacker | gpu fast? | 20:46 |
| kanzure | yes it also has custom gpu raytracers iirc | 20:46 |
| kanzure | (they like raytracers a lot, so they care about performance) | 20:46 |
| gene_hacker | for the the geometric operations | 20:46 |
| kanzure | their geometric operations by default are implicit operations | 20:47 |
| kanzure | i am going to be doing some python performance tests soon, i want to see how much overhead python adds | 20:47 |
| kanzure | so i will be doing things like a million intersections and see how long it takes etc | 20:48 |
| gene_hacker | and it has all the nice CAD kernel stuff right? | 20:48 |
| kanzure | yes | 20:48 |
| kanzure | it's written in a very clean and understandable way | 20:48 |
| gene_hacker | and it doesn't suck like opencascade does? | 20:49 |
| gene_hacker | guess I'll have to try it out | 20:49 |
| kanzure | it "sucks" in a few ways, like their UI is tcl/tk | 20:49 |
| kanzure | but you don't have to use the GUI | 20:49 |
| gene_hacker | who cares, you've got a CAD kernel, make your own GUI | 20:49 |
| kanzure | i like your attitude | 20:50 |
| gene_hacker | now you wouldn't happen to know Toth-Fejel would you? | 20:51 |
| gene_hacker | heard he's on the nanorex project | 20:51 |
| kanzure | checking | 20:51 |
| kanzure | Tihamer Toth-Fejel: [society of manufacturing engineers, foresight institute, nanomanufacturing, nanotech] | 20:51 |
| gene_hacker | yeah that's him | 20:52 |
| kanzure | http://www.niac.usra.edu/files/studies/final_report/883Toth-Fejel.pdf | 20:52 |
| kanzure | http://web.archive.org/web/20060328094811/http://www.nanoengineer-1.com/mambo/images/stories/portraits/toth-fejel.jpg | 20:52 |
| gene_hacker | yup | 20:52 |
| kanzure | stalking level: master | 20:52 |
| gene_hacker | and what sort of work are you doing for nanorex? | 20:52 |
| kanzure | nanorex died in 2009 when mark stopped dumping in money | 20:53 |
| kanzure | i picked up nanoengineer on my own because i didn't want it to die and vanish | 20:53 |
| gene_hacker | oh that's too bad | 20:53 |
| kanzure | so everything on https://github.com/kanzure/nanoengineer is volunteer resuscitation | 20:53 |
| kanzure | https://groups.google.com/group/nanoengineer-dev | 20:53 |
| gradstudentbot | If you help me, I'll put you on the paper. | 20:54 |
| heath | http://i.imgur.com/J5vNDfU.png | 20:54 |
| justanotheruser | lol gradstudentbot | 20:54 |
| gradstudentbot | Wasn't there a paper about that? | 20:54 |
| kanzure | gene_hacker: here's an example of using the C API for brlcad... https://github.com/kanzure/brlcad/blob/master/src/proc-db/wdb_example.c | 20:54 |
| gene_hacker | it'd really help if someone would go out and verify diamonoid mechanosynthesis once and for all | 20:54 |
| heath | gene_hacker, omg, gene_hacker | 20:56 |
| gene_hacker | yeah it's me | 20:56 |
| heath | what have you bene up to, sir? | 20:58 |
| gradstudentbot | Oh, that's problematic. | 20:58 |
| gene_hacker | research mainly | 20:59 |
| heath | what are you studying? | 20:59 |
| gene_hacker | Mechanical engineering | 21:00 |
| gene_hacker | so more or less everything | 21:00 |
| heath | hm. that's all i've got for now, i needed to check a few things on the internets before calling it a night | 21:00 |
| heath | i'll pester you with questions later | 21:00 |
| * heath waves gn | 21:00 | |
| gene_hacker | also looking for people who are doing self-replicating system research | 21:01 |
| kanzure | gradstudentbot: what are you studying? | 21:01 |
| gradstudentbot | I think I'd like to try to write the paper myself. | 21:01 |
| justanotheruser | gradstudentbot help | 21:02 |
| gradstudentbot | Wow, I'm definitely not including this data in the paper. | 21:02 |
| justanotheruser | So does he only say random phrases when he's highlighted? | 21:02 |
| klafka | ugh | 21:02 |
| kanzure | more or less... yes. | 21:03 |
| kanzure | but he also pipes up on his own | 21:03 |
| gene_hacker | that's funny | 21:03 |
| kanzure | gradstudentbot: how's the paper going? | 21:03 |
| gradstudentbot | Wasn't there a paper about that? | 21:03 |
| gene_hacker | gradstudentbot can I be coauthor? | 21:06 |
| gradstudentbot | How many papers do you have published? | 21:06 |
| kanzure | gradstudentbot: i've coauthored many papers | 21:07 |
| gradstudentbot | The paper got rejected. | 21:07 |
| gene_hacker | gradstudent bot I have published 2,147,483,648 papers | 21:07 |
| gene_hacker | gradstudentbot I have published 2,147,483,648 papers | 21:07 |
| gradstudentbot | Right, I just finished coauthoring a related manuscript. | 21:07 |
| kanzure | he's a fairly accurate emulation of a graduate student | 21:07 |
| sbaugh | "fairly"? | 21:08 |
| sbaugh | he'd pass the graduate-student-Turing-test | 21:08 |
| justanotheruser | gradstudentbot: what do you know about robotic arms | 21:10 |
| gradstudentbot | Someone stole my pipette. | 21:10 |
| kanzure | hah | 21:10 |
| kanzure | it's funny because robotic arms often hold pipettes | 21:10 |
| sbaugh | or perhaps.. steal pipettes? dun dun dun | 21:11 |
| justanotheruser | I feel like cleverbot could pass the 12-year-old turing test | 21:12 |
| kanzure | klafka: sup ? | 21:13 |
| klafka | building a fraud algorithm | 21:13 |
| kanzure | was there one present before? | 21:14 |
| gene_hacker | that's one approach to passing the turing test actually: | 21:14 |
| gene_hacker | http://www.popsci.com/technology/article/2012-06/chatbot-posing-13-year-old-wins-largest-ever-turing-test | 21:14 |
| klafka | no | 21:14 |
| kanzure | klafka: hahaha | 21:14 |
| klafka | i mean | 21:14 |
| kanzure | klafka: oh man | 21:14 |
| klafka | yes | 21:14 |
| klafka | a very robust one | 21:14 |
| kanzure | i see i see | 21:14 |
| klafka | don't try and defraud us | 21:14 |
| kanzure | of course there was | 21:14 |
| kanzure | klafka: good luck, though | 21:15 |
| klafka | i have some things that work | 21:16 |
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| juri_ | kanzure: write it as something so standalone, that it is easy to integrate. | 22:48 |
| juri_ | prepare to do some sort of exchanges using remote procedure calls, including for authentication. make the EMRs come to you. there is no universal pluging system, beause each system ends up with 20+ ways to 'plug in'. | 22:50 |
| juri_ | oh, and log every change everywhere, for HIPPA purposes. | 22:51 |
| juri_ | (two Ps? two As? i always get that wrong...) | 22:51 |
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| --- Log closed Thu Sep 12 00:00:23 2013 | ||
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