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ParahSailin | kanzure: scroll up in strace | 08:24 |
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@kanzure | oh duh | 08:55 |
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@kanzure | these sound like really boring papers: http://peerproduction.net/issues/issue-4-value-and-currency/peer-reviewed-articles/ | 09:13 |
@kanzure | also these: http://peerproduction.net/issues/issue-2/ (except maybe denisa's, but meh) | 09:14 |
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nmz787_i | so far the "microfluidics fabrication services" i've contacted have been unhelpful... :/ | 09:24 |
@kanzure | hmm https://github.com/weidai11/extropians/pull/1 | 09:24 |
@kanzure | nmz787_i: go on | 09:25 |
ParahSailin | is anyone having weird kernel stuff going on on their servers? | 09:25 |
@kanzure | i haven't noticed anything broken | 09:26 |
ParahSailin | besides the epoll thing magically appearing since applying heartbleed patches | 09:27 |
@kanzure | unfortunately i last tried it a month ago, and i might have upgraded stuff prior to heartbleed | 09:28 |
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nsh | epoll thing magically appearing? | 09:46 |
@kanzure | http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2014-04-16/ex-chairman-insolvent-uk-bank-busted-possession-cocaine-ketamine-and-crystal-meth | 09:46 |
@kanzure | nsh: yes see https://github.com/gulpjs/gulp/issues/167#issuecomment-40677759 | 09:47 |
nsh | ty | 09:47 |
nmz787_i | well basically it seems either A) I don't appear professional enough to these companies because I'm emailing from a gmail address | 09:49 |
nmz787_i | or B) there isn't enough demand for these things to make them as cheap as stanford was offering (stanford no longer has a foundry for outsiders) | 09:49 |
@kanzure | would you like to email from blackhatbio.com? maybe that would help | 09:49 |
nmz787_i | or C) I need to email more companies | 09:50 |
@kanzure | what were the prices they were quoting? | 09:50 |
nmz787_i | one company was ridiculous, quoting like $7k for a one-off and they didn't have valve experience, and maybe didn't even do assembly | 09:50 |
nmz787_i | this company in Connecticut seems like they've got all the experience, can do PDMS, glass, silicon (which they can add electrodes to), do assembly, can send out for optical coating | 09:51 |
ParahSailin | no, thats about right on the cost | 09:51 |
nmz787_i | but their responses have been short and unhelpful | 09:51 |
nmz787_i | ParahSailin: stanford was $450 for a multilayer device | 09:51 |
@kanzure | that was for a multilayer w/o valves i think | 09:51 |
nmz787_i | no i don't think they cared | 09:52 |
nmz787_i | since a valve is just two channels crossing over one another, with a curved profile for one and a square profile for the other | 09:52 |
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@kanzure | http://web.archive.org/web/20110222234927/http://www.stanford.edu/group/foundry/ | 09:52 |
ParahSailin | you dont really want pdms unless your use case is disposable | 09:52 |
nmz787_i | yep | 09:52 |
nmz787_i | i do0 | 09:53 |
nmz787_i | don't want contam | 09:53 |
nmz787_i | carryover, etc | 09:53 |
@kanzure | only push up/push down valves | 09:53 |
nmz787_i | guess I just need to email more companies... but at $7k I could get tons of shit FIBbed locally | 09:53 |
ParahSailin | ok why are we still talking about fib | 09:54 |
nmz787_i | because you don't understand me | 09:54 |
nmz787_i | :P | 09:54 |
nmz787_i | because its nano/micro CNC | 09:54 |
chris_99 | they use FIB for microfluidicy stuff? | 09:54 |
ParahSailin | raster is really slow, and you pay by the hour | 09:54 |
ParahSailin | chris_99: no, nobody actually does | 09:55 |
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nmz787_i | yep, its not that slow tho | 09:55 |
nmz787_i | microns per second | 09:55 |
nmz787_i | chris_99: one local company was interested in my project specifically so they could gain experience in that field, since they primarily do system design (of FIBs) | 09:56 |
chris_99 | cool, which project is this, was it some kind of DNA synthesizer? | 09:57 |
nmz787_i | yes | 09:57 |
nmz787_i | i ordered a new harddrive the other night so i could try a bunch of CAD programs (i've had no free space for months) | 09:57 |
chris_99 | they've gone pretty reasonable again, a 4TB is pretty decently priced i found | 09:58 |
nmz787_i | heh, well this is for my laptop, which can only accept 2.5" x 7mm high | 09:58 |
chris_99 | ah heh | 09:58 |
nmz787_i | i got a 1TB though for not too terrible a price | 09:58 |
chris_99 | so if they're gonna use FIB what material are you using | 09:58 |
nmz787_i | glass or silicon | 09:58 |
nmz787_i | can use that for making PDMS casts, but also for the electrode side of things | 09:59 |
@kanzure | ParahSailin: it's funny how he ignores your microfluidics experience | 09:59 |
nmz787_i | at least those guys were helpful when i spoke with them :/ | 09:59 |
nmz787_i | i never knew ParahSailin had any microfluidics experience | 09:59 |
ParahSailin | who knows, maybe they actually have FIBs that can etch 100 micron wide channels, 20-100 um deep in seconds | 09:59 |
nmz787_i | all he's ever said was 'them dudes don't use fib' | 10:00 |
ParahSailin | been a while since i was in that game | 10:00 |
@kanzure | nah, he's said other things | 10:00 |
@kanzure | in the past | 10:00 |
nmz787_i | yes, they do, i've sent the etch rate link before, here it is again http://www.oregon-physics.com/lab_services/fib_micromachining_milling.html | 10:01 |
nmz787_i | as beam spot size increases, so does mill rate | 10:02 |
nmz787_i | s/etch/mill/ | 10:02 |
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@kanzure | "historical video" https://www.youtube.com/user/britishpathe | 10:09 |
@kanzure | oh their claim seems to be wrong. they claimed 85,000 video uploads but i only see <200. | 10:11 |
@kanzure | aha http://www.britishpathe.com/search/recordcategories/Science++Technology/start/1890/end/1920 | 10:12 |
@kanzure | those are much less interesting than i figured | 10:14 |
@kanzure | see, if i was alive in the 1890s and in charge of collecting videos, i would try to find much more diverse things that are in danger of disappearing, rather than mundane crap | 10:14 |
@kanzure | i'm not sure i understand this design http://proofmathisbeautiful.tumblr.com/post/82039490406/zerostatereflex-water-experiment-no-33 | 10:15 |
@kanzure | oh they are holes at different locations on each disc | 10:15 |
@kanzure | disk | 10:15 |
ParahSailin | those etch rates are still terrible compared to wet or dry etch | 10:17 |
nmz787_i | seem fine though for rapid prototyping | 10:17 |
ParahSailin | how do you get to that | 10:19 |
nmz787_i | it certainly wouldn't cost $7k for one-off | 10:19 |
ParahSailin | you know what's awesome for rapid prototyping? inkjet printer on transparency + photoresist patterning and wet etch | 10:25 |
ParahSailin | you even dont need to pay for a couple machine days at $200/hr | 10:26 |
nmz787_i | I really don't care how it gets done, I just want an easy to deal with contractor | 10:26 |
@kanzure | ParahSailin: how many prototypes did you have to churn through? | 10:28 |
ParahSailin | lots | 10:28 |
@kanzure | how many components, valves, gates, whatever on chip? | 10:29 |
ParahSailin | heh even without any moving parts | 10:29 |
ParahSailin | im not sure theres any way to do moving parts without having something to foul | 10:29 |
ParahSailin | so if you want moving parts, its going to be a disposable | 10:30 |
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ParahSailin | its actually kinda hard to get a circular reservoir to flush, because of the laminar flow thing | 10:34 |
ParahSailin | thats what typically takes a lot of prototypes | 10:34 |
chris_99 | what kind of moving parts would you want out of interest on such a thing? | 10:38 |
nmz787_i | valvels | 10:38 |
nmz787_i | valves | 10:38 |
nmz787_i | brb | 10:39 |
ParahSailin | for serious low cost dna synthesis http://www.mycroarray.com/index.html 20k x 100nt / $1500 | 10:41 |
nmz787_i | but those don't really have very good quality control | 10:42 |
nmz787_i | which for semi-directed evolution would be fine | 10:43 |
ParahSailin | yeah error rate is high, you need special shit for ligation | 10:43 |
ParahSailin | but thats what you want to go with for the raw synthesis part | 10:43 |
nmz787_i | I want to obliterate transfer steps... text file in, transformed bug culture out | 10:44 |
nmz787_i | basically its just coupling synthesis with purification and electroporation | 10:44 |
nmz787_i | :P | 10:44 |
nmz787_i | *basically* | 10:44 |
nmz787_i | that price point isn't too bad for today tho | 10:45 |
ParahSailin | bridge amplification & sequencing + ligation | 10:45 |
nmz787_i | you could do that, or just size-select and protect already-synthesized from active/destabilizing chemistry | 10:45 |
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eudoxia | http://198.170.115.106/reports/CI93.html this was a cool read from a few years back | 10:50 |
eudoxia | that's allegedly the IP of CI, i don't really care | 10:50 |
@kanzure | "(he had been taking about 150 pills per day, many of which were Life Extension Foundation products). The sudden loss of supplements was undoubtedly a shock to his system." | 10:53 |
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@kanzure | ioctl(6, FIOCLEX) = -1 EBADF (Bad file descriptor) | 11:06 |
@kanzure | ParahSailin: it's waiting on a bad fd? | 11:06 |
ParahSailin | thats weird | 11:07 |
ParahSailin | do you see an epoll_open anywhere returning 6? | 11:07 |
@kanzure | epoll_ctl(6, EPOLL_CTL_ADD, 7, {EPOLLIN, {u32=7, u64=7}}) = 0 | 11:08 |
@kanzure | no epoll_open anywhere but probably wrong name | 11:09 |
ParahSailin | epoll_create | 11:10 |
@kanzure | only one: epoll_create1(O_CLOEXEC) = 6 | 11:11 |
ParahSailin | ok thats right | 11:11 |
ParahSailin | so somewhere between that and the ioctl 6 its gone? | 11:11 |
ParahSailin | is there a close(6 somewhere? | 11:12 |
@kanzure | 4532 lines | 11:12 |
@kanzure | there's only: ioctl(6, FIOCLEX); epoll_ctl(6, EPOLL_CTL_ADD, 7, {EPOLLIN, {u32=7, u64=7}}) = 0; epoll_ctl(6, EPOLL_CTL_ADD, 9, {EPOLLIN, {u32=9, u64=9}}) = 0; epoll_wait(6, {{EPOLLIN, {u32=9, u64=9}}}, 1024, 4294967295) = 1; epoll_wait(6, <unfinished ...>; | 11:12 |
@kanzure | epoll_create1 is 10-15 lines after ioctl(6, ..) | 11:13 |
ParahSailin | oh | 11:13 |
ParahSailin | so its waiting on fds 7 and 9 | 11:14 |
@kanzure | ioctl(7, FIOCLEX) = -1 EBADF (Bad file descriptor) | 11:14 |
@kanzure | same with 9 | 11:14 |
@kanzure | except 9 also has: read(9, "\1\0\0\0\0\0\0\0", 1024) | 11:14 |
@kanzure | which is near the end next to the broken epoll_wait | 11:15 |
@kanzure | fd 7r is pipe and fd 9u is anon_inode (same as 6u) | 11:15 |
ParahSailin | what opens 9 | 11:16 |
@kanzure | no lines end with "= 9" | 11:17 |
@kanzure | i don't see anything that opens it | 11:17 |
ParahSailin | you wanna pastebin the whole strace? | 11:18 |
@kanzure | http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/irc/node-strace.txt | 11:19 |
@kanzure | can file descriptors be shared between processes? | 11:20 |
ParahSailin | eventfd2(0, O_NONBLOCK|O_CLOEXEC) = 9 | 11:23 |
ParahSailin | yeah they can | 11:23 |
@kanzure | how did i miss that line? | 11:24 |
@kanzure | oh i was using \W9\W | 11:25 |
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ParahSailin | well typically people dont use sendmsg and recvmsg to send file descriptors through domain sockets | 11:26 |
ParahSailin | but if theres a fork() anywhere you can bet that file descriptors are acessible to another process | 11:27 |
dingo | :D | 11:28 |
eudoxia | that sweet feel when a python script gets killed by the OOM killer | 11:30 |
@kanzure | hrm so now i have to figure out what's causing that to get called | 11:31 |
ParahSailin | ah right, clone() | 11:41 |
ParahSailin | so maybe you need the strace -f or -p whatever it is that makes it follow the whole process group | 11:41 |
@kanzure | http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/irc/node-strace2.txt | 11:42 |
@kanzure | 4520 seems to be the hanging pid | 11:44 |
@kanzure | oh that's the parent | 11:45 |
ParahSailin | yeah thats teh dad | 11:45 |
ParahSailin | what exactly are the child procs | 11:46 |
ParahSailin | just how node does multiprocessing? | 11:46 |
@kanzure | libuv stuff | 11:47 |
ParahSailin | when the parent process is left hanging, have the children all died? | 11:48 |
ParahSailin | yeah i guess so, they get detached | 11:48 |
ParahSailin | so the children die, and nobody is left to write to the eventfd | 11:48 |
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delinquentme | paperbot, http://pubs.acs.org/doi/abs/10.1021/nn405097u | 12:22 |
paperbot | http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/paperbot/Compartmental%20Genomics%20in%20Living%20Cells%20Revealed%20by%20Single-Cell%20Nanobiopsy.txt | 12:22 |
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@kanzure | paperbot: http://www.cell.com/cell/abstract/S0092-8674(14)00418-8 | 12:49 |
@kanzure | "Whole-Brain Imaging with Single-Cell Resolution Using Chemical Cocktails and Computational Analysis" | 12:49 |
paperbot | http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/paperbot/Whole-Brain%20Imaging%20with%20Single-Cell%20Resolution%20Using%20Chemical%20Cocktails%20and%20Computational%20Analysis.pdf | 12:50 |
@kanzure | "Systems-level identification and analysis of cellular circuits in the brain will require the development of whole-brain imaging with single-cell resolution. To this end, we performed comprehensive chemical screening to develop a whole-brain clearing and imaging method, termed CUBIC (clear, unobstructed brain imaging cocktails and computational analysis). CUBIC is a simple and efficient method involving the immersion of brain samples in ... | 12:50 |
@kanzure | ... chemical mixtures containing aminoalcohols, which enables rapid whole-brain imaging with single-photon excitation microscopy. CUBIC is applicable to multicolor imaging of fluorescent proteins or immunostained samples in adult brains and is scalable from a primate brain to subcellular structures. We also developed a whole-brain cell-nuclear counterstaining protocol and a computational image analysis pipeline that, together with CUBIC ... | 12:51 |
@kanzure | ... reagents, enable the visualization and quantification of neural activities induced by environmental stimulation. CUBIC enables time-course expression profiling of whole adult brains with single-cell resolution." | 12:51 |
@kanzure | paperbot: http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0092867414004188 | 12:51 |
nsh | .wa number of cells in human brain | 12:51 |
paperbot | http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/paperbot/2165fbbd0371142b5576fec4d49135c9.txt | 12:51 |
yoleaux | nsh: Sorry, no result! | 12:51 |
nsh | (lots) | 12:51 |
@kanzure | ParahSailin: i "solved" the problem by doing a custom build of nodejs :( | 13:05 |
ParahSailin | yeah, recompiling always solves these things | 13:05 |
ParahSailin | do you have any assets at illumina? | 13:09 |
@kanzure | not to my knowledge? | 13:15 |
@kanzure | oh wait, hm | 13:15 |
@kanzure | no | 13:16 |
@kanzure | i keep forgetting that lifetech was acquired by thermo fisher | 13:16 |
cpopell | Life is weird sometimes. I just found out the mother of one of my friends growing up went back to school in her late forties for a degree in CS and is getting into predictive analytics. | 13:18 |
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@kanzure | http://www.consul.io/intro/index.html | 13:28 |
@kanzure | http://www.consul.io/docs/internals/architecture.html | 13:28 |
@kanzure | http://www.consul.io/intro/vs/serf.html | 13:28 |
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delinquentme | https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uL6e3co4Qqc | 13:47 |
delinquentme | THIS is awesome | 13:49 |
delinquentme | and I need to pee | 13:49 |
delinquentme | TTYL! | 13:49 |
* delinquentme licks ParahSailin | 13:49 | |
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eudoxia | wow licking people on IRC, how rude is that | 13:49 |
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jrayhawk | kanzure: did you meet delinquentme in real life and, if so, did delinquentmy at any point attempt to lick you? | 14:06 |
jrayhawk | s/my/me | 14:06 |
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@kanzure | "Human Somatic Cell Nuclear Transfer Using Adult Cells" http://www.cell.com/cell-stem-cell/abstract/S1934-5909(14)00137-4 | 14:41 |
@kanzure | "•Adult cell reprogramming via SCNT is not successful via the conventional protocol" | 14:41 |
@kanzure | "•Improved success was achieved with a recently developed approach" | 14:41 |
@kanzure | "•hESCs were derived via SCNT from 35- and 75-year-old males" | 14:41 |
@kanzure | "Derivation of patient-specific human pluripotent stem cells via somatic cell nuclear transfer (SCNT) has the potential for applications in a range of therapeutic contexts. However, successful SCNT with human cells has proved challenging to achieve, and thus far has only been reported with fetal or infant somatic cells. In this study, we describe the application of a recently developed methodology for the generation of human ESCs via SCNT ... | 14:41 |
@kanzure | ... using dermal fibroblasts from 35- and 75-year-old males. Our study therefore demonstrates the applicability of SCNT for adult human cells and supports further investigation of SCNT as a strategy for regenerative medicine." | 14:41 |
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delinquentme | Theres some nordic fashion designer whos spending money in the bahamas or jamaca or someplace warm to bring about research in SCNT | 14:46 |
delinquentme | good news for him | 14:46 |
@kanzure | http://opensslrampage.org/ | 14:46 |
delinquentme | Blahhhhhh kanzure should I work for academia.edu | 14:46 |
@kanzure | “So the OpenSSL codebase does “get the time, add it as a random seed” in a bunch of places inside the TLS engine, to try to keep entropy high. I wonder if their moto is “If you can’t solve a problem, at least try to do it badly”.” | 14:47 |
@kanzure | hahaha no | 14:47 |
@kanzure | no way man | 14:47 |
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delinquentme | I mean its could be good connections and the money would be solid. | 14:47 |
@kanzure | good connections with what | 14:47 |
delinquentme | kanzure, I also just realized that with the right circuitry the research in fishingline muscles could be REALLY handy in quad copters / the work being done w 3drobotics | 14:48 |
delinquentme | I mean I'd quickly be able to vet tons of people within academic circles | 14:48 |
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@kanzure | http://www.nlm.nih.gov/news/welcome_library_agreement.html "NLM and Wellcome Library Establish Agreement to Make 150 Years of Biomedical Journals Freely Available Online" | 16:24 |
@kanzure | "Representatives of the US National Library of Medicine (NLM), a component of the National Institutes of Health, and the Wellcome Trust recently signed a memorandum of understanding to work together to make thousands of complete back issues of historically-significant biomedical journals freely available online. The terms of the MOU include a donation of £750,000 ($1.2 million) to the NLM that will support coordination of the three-year ... | 16:24 |
@kanzure | ... project to scan original materials from NLM's collection at the article level, and Wellcome's work to secure copyright clearances and permissions for electronic deposit from publishers. NLM will undertake conservation of the original material to ensure its preservation for future generations." | 16:24 |
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@kanzure | um... "and Wellcome's work to secure copyright clearances and permissions for electronic deposit from publishers." | 16:24 |
@kanzure | copyright permissions for 100 year-old papers? | 16:24 |
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@kanzure | performance of hashing in javascript crypto libraries http://dominictarr.github.io/crypto-bench/ | 16:47 |
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@kanzure | yahoo mail emails are breaking mailman with DMARC p=reject http://www.dmarc.org/pipermail/dmarc-discuss/2014-April/002445.html | 16:54 |
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cpopell | http://scholar.google.com/scholar?hl=en&q=a+fundamental+study+and+modeling+of+the+micro-droplet+formation+process+in+near-field+electrohydrodynamic+jet+printing&btnG=&as_sdt=1%2C47&as_sdtp= | 18:06 |
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ParahSailin | http://www.state.gov/j/drl/p/224863.htm | 18:21 |
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@kanzure | ParahSailin: i don't think they will particularly accept the "let's send lots of open source molecular biology equipment to north korea" proposal | 18:27 |
entelechios | lol | 18:28 |
entelechios | http://www.koryogroup.com/ north korea vacations | 18:29 |
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entelechios | i saw some bearded gringo with a sorta angry look on his face wearing a red tshirt that said 'COMMUNIST' on it walking out of a cuban bar the other day and all i could do was lol | 18:30 |
ParahSailin | dangit | 18:30 |
ParahSailin | how about design the freedom virus? | 18:31 |
@kanzure | only if it's sexually transmitted | 18:31 |
entelechios | http://cdn.pophangover.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/04/kim-jong-un-fx_o_1241392.gif | 18:32 |
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ParahSailin | oh god | 18:33 |
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@kanzure | "Kepler-186f is an exoplanet orbiting the red dwarf Kepler-186, 500 light-years from the Earth. It is the first planet with a radius similar to Earth's discovered in the habitable zone of another star." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kepler_186f | 18:45 |
@kanzure | 18:29 < justanot1eruser> Looking at the scrollback for the interplanetary Bitcoin, is there a way to prove you're on a certain planet that is cryptographically verifiable? | 18:50 |
@kanzure | "how fast would the fastest human run 100m?" http://freakonometrics.hypotheses.org/13880 | 18:51 |
dingo | lol | 18:55 |
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heath | where is biologik located? | 19:52 |
@kanzure | his smile is annoying | 19:57 |
@kanzure | "He would like nothing more than to become a master of manipulating DNA through complexity science" | 19:57 |
@kanzure | he's also apparently an idiot about dna | 19:57 |
entelechios | imma mad scientist, watch me style my hair like einstein put on a lab coat and spout off bullshit | 19:59 |
entelechios | hey look i have a flask with green koolaid in it and googly eyes | 20:00 |
@kanzure | your own eyes are googly? | 20:01 |
entelechios | and i have a german accent | 20:01 |
cluckj | wat | 20:03 |
@kanzure | 'parently it's fucked up o'clock in here | 20:08 |
heath | fig is pretty great | 20:11 |
heath | i've been using packer for about two weeks now | 20:12 |
* heath was rereading the logs, just saw your fig stuff kanzure | 20:12 | |
heath | i havent' used docker though | 20:15 |
heath | and subsequently fig | 20:16 |
@kanzure | the major downside with fig is service discovery | 20:16 |
@kanzure | it forces you to do a lot of service discovery stuff upfront | 20:17 |
@kanzure | instead of ignoring it until your infrastructure is breaking | 20:17 |
heath | fig looks a lot like ansible, which we've been using | 20:17 |
heath | i don't know that i'll have much use for it unless i use docker | 20:19 |
@kanzure | probably not | 20:19 |
heath | oh yeah, i've been working remotely for awhile :) | 20:21 |
heath | and i don't plan on changing this | 20:21 |
heath | not a fan of cubicle culture | 20:22 |
heath | kanzure: you've been working away on the pokemon disassembly for awhile, where are you heading with this? | 20:24 |
heath | please say you're making google's april fool's joke a reality | 20:24 |
heath | juri_: why haven't you been all over osvehicle? | 20:24 |
@kanzure | i didn't see their latest thing. something about a map and pokemon? | 20:24 |
@kanzure | in which case, no | 20:24 |
@kanzure | when i was 11 i was doing lots of trial-and-error gamesharking on pokemon | 20:26 |
@kanzure | the disassembly is my way of squashing my inner child | 20:26 |
@kanzure | violently | 20:27 |
@kanzure | instead of trial and error you can look at things like reality! and make progress on things! | 20:27 |
@kanzure | but also if you're asking for TODOs it's mostly related to removing the dependency on baserom.gbc | 20:28 |
xmj | good morning | 20:34 |
xmj | kanzure: does disassembling and looking at the inner plumbing feel more 'fun' ? | 20:35 |
@kanzure | more fun than what? | 20:37 |
xmj | trial/error | 20:38 |
@kanzure | i've been able to think about stuff like asm injection and stack busting | 20:38 |
@kanzure | jrayhawk: was there ever any "real-time" non-turn-based interactive fiction? | 20:39 |
juri_ | heath: there's a link to it on my wiki page. | 20:45 |
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juri_ | it looked way too not-printable, to me. | 20:45 |
xmj | kanzure: that doesn't answer my question | 20:47 |
@kanzure | i haven't really evaluated it on the spectrum of fun, ever | 20:48 |
@kanzure | i guess i've forgotten to | 20:48 |
xmj | ah | 20:49 |
xmj | how sad | 20:49 |
@kanzure | if you say so | 20:50 |
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jrayhawk | kanzure: you'll have to be a bit more specific in your definition of "interactive fiction" and "real time" | 21:06 |
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jrayhawk | the stanley parable probably matches most of the definitions you could come up with | 21:08 |
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jrayhawk | if "real time" means "matches the flow of time outside the game" then a fair number of mmorpgs might qualify, though usually narratives can only be loosely guided through those | 21:10 |
jrayhawk | early Ultima Online and Matrix Online had lots of real-time narrative elements. | 21:10 |
@kanzure | "real time" as in, if you don't type an action, stuff is happening on your screen | 21:12 |
@kanzure | do MUDs count? or do things only happen in MUDs once you enter a command | 21:12 |
jrayhawk | MUDs don't usually have much plot to speak of; they're usually stereotypical "RPG" hedonic treadmills. | 21:15 |
yashgaroth | a kobold arrives from the north | 21:15 |
jrayhawk | And/or player-driven dramas. | 21:15 |
@kanzure | that's disappointing. glad i never bothered. | 21:15 |
yashgaroth | aww c'mon the discworld mud was pretty good | 21:15 |
jrayhawk | player-invented dramas can get fairly entertaining, as seen with EVE | 21:15 |
jrayhawk | the forces of recursive tribal power concentration versus space nihilists | 21:16 |
jrayhawk | most of the game industry consists of products that are not turn based and contain a narrative, so you'll probably want to be more specific | 21:17 |
@kanzure | "a kobold arrives from the north" while you're typing "north" | 21:18 |
yashgaroth | and begins to attack you; anyway yes stuff happens in MUDs without you entering commands | 21:18 |
@kanzure | i've only seen MUDs that send me text after i hit enter | 21:19 |
jrayhawk | That does not sound like a good multi-user interaction model. | 21:19 |
yashgaroth | by necessity in a multi-user environment, at the least another player's actions will appear | 21:20 |
@kanzure | well, i was thinking single-player originally, but i suppose multi-user counts as interactive fiction too | 21:20 |
jrayhawk | what exactly do you think "MUD" stands for | 21:20 |
@kanzure | i don't know who you're asking anymore | 21:20 |
@kanzure | i know that the server game state is updating in that scenario, but i'm talking about async updates on the user's screen | 21:21 |
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jrayhawk | Yeah, MUDs did that even back in, like, 1990, though how often that feature was relevant was a matter of game dynamics. | 21:22 |
@kanzure | was it.. a good dynamic? | 21:22 |
@kanzure | or just annoying | 21:22 |
jrayhawk | I never played MUDs in the internet era where multiplayer was somewhat more meaningful, so I couldn't tell you. | 21:23 |
jrayhawk | I think I know a guy who can recommend some if you want to give them a whirl. | 21:23 |
@kanzure | well i was pondering a text-based dinoslaughter onslaught | 21:23 |
jrayhawk | violetland/crimsonland aren't good enough for you, huh? | 21:24 |
@kanzure | no sorry | 21:24 |
@kanzure | (i'm not sorry) | 21:25 |
jrayhawk | http://www.topmudsites.com/ | 21:27 |
jrayhawk | i am told aardwolf is pretty good | 21:27 |
jrayhawk | in that it is a large community and has active development | 21:29 |
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jrayhawk | dwarf fortress is a single player sandbox game with anomalously strong procedurally/emergently generated narrative elements | 21:35 |
jrayhawk | i think you get to stop time whenever, though | 21:35 |
jrayhawk | it's just a particularly outstanding example of how to do unstructured narratives | 21:35 |
jrayhawk | Space Station 13 is also pretty innovative | 21:38 |
@kanzure | yes, dwarf fortress counts, although they rely a lot on ascii art | 21:39 |
@kanzure | "interactive fiction" at one point referred almost exclusively to infocom i think | 21:39 |
jrayhawk | ah, okay | 21:40 |
jrayhawk | yeah, that's not really my area of expertise. There's a big community focused around http://www.ifwiki.org/index.php/Main_Page at least. | 21:42 |
@kanzure | got it, so you have dominion over arcade games, but not anything earlier :p | 21:42 |
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petora | jrayhawk Someone really needs to build a GUI frontend to dwarf fortress | 22:05 |
petora | I mean one with mouse click windows | 22:05 |
@kanzure | p. sure that exists somewhere | 22:07 |
petora | it doesnt really exist actually | 22:09 |
petora | still have to keyboard everything | 22:09 |
petora | and then ESC-ESC-ESC-ESC to get back to the top of the keypress tree | 22:10 |
petora | people have only been troubled enough to build GUIs "on top of" the underlying mechanics | 22:15 |
cpopell | petora: not as advanced, but you could play Gnomoria | 22:22 |
@kanzure | that sounds like the name of ParahSailin's freedom virus | 22:23 |
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JayDugger | Good morning, everyone. | 23:23 |
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