| --- Log opened Fri Apr 18 00:00:43 2014 | ||
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| chris_99 | paperbot: http://link.springer.com/chapter/10.1007/3-540-60902-4_12 | 01:40 |
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| paperbot | http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/paperbot/5b8b88e46d715615386c67d9d4e4baa3.txt | 01:40 |
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| dingo | hey what the hell | 08:26 |
| FourFire | ? | 08:30 |
| JayDugger | Eh? | 08:30 |
| dingo | this guy's got my nickname as his ident | 08:31 |
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| FourFire | dingo, is an animal | 08:33 |
| * dingo drools | 08:34 | |
| FourFire | and not some overly obscure one, like, say meercats, or sloths | 08:34 |
| dingo | i was like 11 then, and it was before internet, i wasn't very creative | 08:35 |
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| FourFire | why did you have an IRC nick before the internet? | 09:13 |
| juri_ | hio. | 09:14 |
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| xmj | someone explain FourFire that nicknames exist in reallife | 09:54 |
| FourFire | xmj ;) | 09:55 |
| @kanzure | ugh | 10:04 |
| ParahSailin | anyone know the deal with opal stop codon being translated as arg | 10:05 |
| ParahSailin | http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/nuccore/KF985959.1 | 10:06 |
| ParahSailin | fucking virus how do they work | 10:06 |
| @kanzure | freedom infection just isn't going to fly | 10:06 |
| dingo | < FourFire> why did you have an IRC nick before the internet? | 10:07 |
| dingo | dial-up bulletin board systems | 10:07 |
| dingo | and it was my fidonet nick, etc. | 10:08 |
| ParahSailin | if a fungus can infect an ants brain to make it fly to freedom, the freedom virus will work | 10:08 |
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| ParahSailin | paperbot: http://www.pnas.org/content/87/22/8860.full.pdf | 10:09 |
| paperbot | http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/paperbot/520b988bd4f53bace772caf6879c21ef.pdf | 10:09 |
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| @kanzure | have there been any reasonable proposed alternatives to researchers writing papers? | 11:00 |
| @kanzure | like, not papers | 11:01 |
| xmj | you somehow need to document your research | 11:02 |
| xmj | how would you do it? | 11:02 |
| @kanzure | depends on what i'm doing | 11:02 |
| @kanzure | paper-style research heavily constrains the type of work that you're expected to engage in | 11:02 |
| xmj | to what? | 11:03 |
| @kanzure | to work that gets written up in journal articles? duh | 11:03 |
| xmj | you mean 'accepted by journals' | 11:03 |
| @kanzure | not just that | 11:03 |
| @kanzure | i don't care about the fact that rejections exist | 11:03 |
| @kanzure | i mean, it makes sense, that if you're going to have acceptances then you're going to need rejections | 11:03 |
| xmj | and your point is...? | 11:05 |
| @kanzure | my point is that i do not mean "accepted by journals" | 11:05 |
| @kanzure | please try to follow along. | 11:05 |
| xmj | please do make a point and try not to be enigmatic. | 11:06 |
| @kanzure | uh, i was responding to your statement | 11:06 |
| @kanzure | this is how conversations work | 11:06 |
| xmj | i was responding to your conversation style | 11:06 |
| @kanzure | go on? | 11:07 |
| nmz787_i | you're both just writing, stop this, and do some other form of communication to prove/disprove kanzure's point! | 11:07 |
| xmj | you ask, are there reasonable proposed alternatives to papers? | 11:07 |
| nmz787_i | all journal articles are now conference phone calls | 11:07 |
| xmj | then you go on a tirade about what's bad about papers | 11:07 |
| xmj | not how you'd do it by NOT using paper-style. | 11:07 |
| @kanzure | i did not actually say anything about what's bad about papers | 11:07 |
| nmz787_i | mo3 | 11:08 |
| nmz787_i | mp3* | 11:08 |
| xmj | "paper-style research heavily constrains the type of work that you're expected to engage in" | 11:08 |
| xmj | if constraining isn't bad why do you care about finding an alternative? | 11:08 |
| nmz787_i | and really they aren't papers most times these days, they're documents | 11:08 |
| @kanzure | constraints can be definitions, and i don't think definitions are inherently bad | 11:08 |
| xmj | right | 11:09 |
| xmj | again | 11:09 |
| xmj | how else would you do it? | 11:09 |
| @kanzure | so either i have to have a proposal, or else i think that definitions or papers are inherently bad? | 11:09 |
| xmj | i haven't joined in this conversation to discuss your bikeshed color or whether or not papers are bad. | 11:09 |
| xmj | you ask for a different way to do it, i'm curious about how you'd do it. | 11:10 |
| xmj | go ahead. | 11:10 |
| @kanzure | uh? | 11:10 |
| FourFire | We need some way to keep score | 11:12 |
| @kanzure | i don't know why you are saying these things to me | 11:12 |
| FourFire | something better than papers would be nice | 11:12 |
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| nmz787_i | conference calls. | 11:12 |
| xmj | 21:00:49 <@kanzure> have there been any reasonable proposed alternatives to researchers writing papers? | 11:12 |
| xmj | 21:01:04 <@kanzure> like, not papers | 11:12 |
| nmz787_i | mp3s | 11:12 |
| FourFire | what are papers opitmized for? | 11:12 |
| xmj | Something better than papers would be nice, but I read much faster than listen to things. | 11:12 |
| FourFire | accessibility? Ability to file away? | 11:13 |
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| @kanzure | i don't understand what my question has to do with 11:10 < xmj> you ask for a different way to do it, i'm curious about how you'd do it. 11:10 < xmj> go ahead. | 11:13 |
| xmj | I'm much more into the higher information density conveyed in papers. Audio/multimedia is slow | 11:13 |
| nmz787_i | xmj: I am joking, I think documents are a great way to iteratively re-organize thoughts | 11:13 |
| FourFire | it's 15th century tech, sure | 11:13 |
| @kanzure | mp3 is a valid suggestion, but a bad one | 11:13 |
| xmj | nmz787_i: can you try to explain kanzure what i mean? | 11:13 |
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| nmz787_i | i think its a draw! | 11:14 |
| xmj | i'm pretty sure he's trying to not get me intentionally, this is boring :p | 11:14 |
| FourFire | agreed, that text is higher density than, video | 11:14 |
| @kanzure | xmj: have you considered that maybe i'm just an idiot? | 11:14 |
| xmj | sure | 11:14 |
| xmj | and i'm sure nmz787_i is better at talking to idiots than i am :D | 11:15 |
| * xmj chuckles | 11:15 | |
| xmj | happy holidays. | 11:15 |
| FourFire | kanzure, what do you find suboptimal about papers ? | 11:16 |
| @kanzure | not machine readable | 11:16 |
| FourFire | so... you want people to file their research in binary? | 11:16 |
| xmj | oh | 11:17 |
| @kanzure | they already do, they transmit ascii over binary to their publishers | 11:17 |
| xmj | brilliant | 11:17 |
| xmj | i have an idea. | 11:17 |
| xmj | let's make a machine-parsable xml-based paper standard. | 11:17 |
| @kanzure | xmj: please try to be less obnoxious | 11:17 |
| @kanzure | xmj: bad ideas like that should be cause for banning | 11:17 |
| @kanzure | xmj: people take that shit seriously and then you end up with crap like jstor.org | 11:18 |
| xmj | kanzure: xml is the defacto standard of machine parsability | 11:18 |
| xmj | kdbus. | 11:18 |
| xmj | case closed | 11:18 |
| @kanzure | wrapping a pile of text in xml is not exactly machine readable | 11:18 |
| @kanzure | and why should there be a pile of text in the first place? fuck you | 11:18 |
| FourFire | you know, if that's the case then some dialect of english needs to be made by AI people, which can be understood by their AI interpreter, that is NOT a programming language, and then people can write their papers in that dialect, like simple wikipedia sort of does | 11:19 |
| @kanzure | why should they be writing like that? | 11:19 |
| xmj | FourFire: lisp is a programming language | 11:19 |
| @kanzure | what is this fascination with piles of written text | 11:20 |
| xmj | you could probably shape it into an easily AI-parsable document-style written in reverse polish notation. | 11:20 |
| @kanzure | i asked for alternatives, not xml wrappers or AI handwaving | 11:20 |
| FourFire | xmj but is is comphrenehsible to someone who doesn't know how to program? | 11:20 |
| @kanzure | i don't think that programming is the only possible alternative | 11:21 |
| nmz787_i | "FourFire: agreed, that text is higher density than, video" waiiiitttttt a sec, I've always heard a picture is worth a 1000 words | 11:21 |
| xmj | FourFire: does it have to be? we're discussing ideas, they don't have to be optimal | 11:21 |
| FourFire | the point is, that the language is a tool which is mutually intelligible by unskilled people, And specially skilled computers | 11:21 |
| @kanzure | but why should language be the tool to solve "this problem" | 11:21 |
| FourFire | nmz787, yes, because you can pretend that it is a still, a moment in time | 11:21 |
| FourFire | you can say things with a picture which you cannot say in the same way with words | 11:22 |
| @kanzure | just because everyone is capable of writing doesn't mean that scientific progress should be based on writing long-form documents | 11:22 |
| FourFire | you can unveil a brutal truth, on people who will not listen, by showing them a picture | 11:22 |
| @kanzure | everyone is capable of singing, should we be singing our science | 11:22 |
| FourFire | kanzure, I disagree | 11:22 |
| FourFire | I cannot sing | 11:22 |
| @kanzure | "singing" when broadly and ambiguously defined :) | 11:23 |
| xmj | has anyone read neal stephenson's anathem? | 11:23 |
| nmz787_i | hieroglyphics science! | 11:23 |
| xmj | in that book they actually do sing mathemathic formulas. | 11:23 |
| FourFire | how can you transfer information to a computer using a protocol based on instinctive human singing sound-rules? | 11:23 |
| @kanzure | nmz787_i: hieroglyphics is still writting | 11:24 |
| @kanzure | *writing | 11:24 |
| FourFire | I mean, decades from now, we'll be inputting directly from out brains with passive EM scanners | 11:24 |
| FourFire | but that's not now | 11:24 |
| nmz787_i | i thought they were more drawings | 11:25 |
| FourFire | kanzure, have you read some of simple.wikipedia.org ? | 11:25 |
| @kanzure | yes, why? | 11:25 |
| FourFire | so, an english dialect which is in that general direction, so that it is easier to code AI to understand it | 11:25 |
| xmj | *why* | 11:26 |
| FourFire | as long as a concept can be decomposed into simple words, and the computer can understand the simple words | 11:26 |
| @kanzure | why does it have to be text though | 11:26 |
| FourFire | xmj transfer of *knowledge* | 11:26 |
| FourFire | to computers | 11:26 |
| FourFire | so that they can comprehend and do stuff with it | 11:26 |
| xmj | there's been such good research on natural language processing that machines are getting better and better | 11:26 |
| FourFire | it could be audio too | 11:26 |
| FourFire | but that's another layer of apporximation | 11:26 |
| xmj | wouldn't it make sense to leverage that, make it more efficient, hook it into some Friendly AI, and get going with singularity? | 11:27 |
| @kanzure | xmj: please fuck off | 11:27 |
| FourFire | my accent, in english for example is pretty messed up, but I reckon 95% of english speakers can still get what I'm saying | 11:27 |
| nmz787_i | I only have like 4 or 5 senses, sight, touch, hearing, smell, taste | 11:27 |
| @kanzure | xmj: FourFire is a moron and wont be able to tell that you're being sarcastic | 11:27 |
| xmj | kanzure: if everything else fails, insult people | 11:27 |
| xmj | oh, i wasn't | 11:27 |
| xmj | NLP is going steady | 11:27 |
| @kanzure | xmj: you legitimately believe that NLP is Friendly AI? or what | 11:27 |
| FourFire | you were being sarcastic? | 11:27 |
| xmj | are you an idiot? | 11:28 |
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| nmz787_i | xmj: he is pretty bad at doing that, he has hurt my feelings before in a semi-lasting manner | 11:28 |
| xmj | NLP is not a friendly AI | 11:28 |
| FourFire | well I'm sorry I took your bait then, I thought you were sincere | 11:28 |
| FourFire | (I didn't mean to!) | 11:28 |
| @kanzure | oh "hook it into" | 11:28 |
| xmj | and if you READ my sentences, you'd know i did not confuse them | 11:28 |
| nmz787_i | xmj: but he seems to come around | 11:28 |
| @kanzure | "well if it's just that simple" | 11:28 |
| xmj | jesus | 11:28 |
| xmj | nmz787_i: I was totally serious. | 11:28 |
| xmj | kanzure: please fuck yourself. | 11:28 |
| @kanzure | you really think that there are friendly ai implementations laying around? | 11:28 |
| xmj | it might help | 11:28 |
| @kanzure | way ahead of you | 11:28 |
| xmj | some people have issues when their balls get too blue.. | 11:29 |
| FourFire | (ok, reading your next sentences, NLP has NOTHING to do with AI, I would have gotten it then) | 11:29 |
| cpopell | welp, this seems like a fascinating bout of dick-fencing to wade back into | 11:29 |
| @kanzure | often people conflate ai stuff with natural language processing | 11:29 |
| xmj | FourFire: yes, but you'd think a wellbehaved AI could understand language if NLP was sufficiently welldeveloped. | 11:30 |
| @kanzure | could we please not just handwave ai into our solutions | 11:30 |
| @kanzure | it makes conversations boring if every answer is "just use ai" | 11:30 |
| @kanzure | or "just use friendly ai" | 11:30 |
| cpopell | how 2 get girlfriend | 11:30 |
| cpopell | >AI | 11:31 |
| xmj | "The best move is not to play" | 11:31 |
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| xmj | i'm still unsure about which other forms you'd prefer | 11:32 |
| nmz787_i | xmj: he's not an idiot, more of an autistic/aspergers person in the sense of empathetic disconnect, but also isn't shy and doesn't back down into his own mental hole... so he kinda just starts arguing... you kind of have to 'wade' as cpopell put it | 11:32 |
| FourFire | I was trying to explore the possibilities of reducing the bar to entry for language processing, thus showing that potential AI applications of knowledge processor eiaser | 11:32 |
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| xmj | nmz787_i: that makes two of us, awesome. | 11:32 |
| xmj | i see language as symbols to manipulate | 11:32 |
| FourFire | nmz787, kanzure, xmj I sort of resent you guys talking as if I wasn't right here | 11:32 |
| @kanzure | that was only me | 11:33 |
| xmj | and to my mind it doesn't matter if these symbols are in english, german, math + greek symbols, lambda expressions ((lisp)), forth python or c. | 11:33 |
| @kanzure | english is not a symbol | 11:33 |
| xmj | LEARN TO FUCKING READ | 11:33 |
| xmj | jesus christ | 11:33 |
| nmz787_i | FourFire: ? | 11:34 |
| nmz787_i | FourFire: I was referring to kanzure :P | 11:34 |
| xmj | lol | 11:34 |
| xmj | nmz787_i: you're evil. | 11:34 |
| nmz787_i | being mentally different is good though, it aides innovation | 11:35 |
| nmz787_i | it can be hard though | 11:35 |
| nmz787_i | I still don't know what's better than text though | 11:35 |
| xmj | depends for what | 11:36 |
| FourFire | so, my point is that you have to start somewhere | 11:36 |
| xmj | good luck restating formulas in plain english | 11:36 |
| FourFire | the closest I've seen to machine comprehension from human input is something about a computer being able to play some OSS clone of civilization | 11:36 |
| FourFire | and the bot got better at playing the game after reading the instructions | 11:37 |
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| FourFire | >30% better, or something | 11:37 |
| @kanzure | why did this conversation turn into anything near "machine comprehension from human input" | 11:37 |
| ParahSailin | attempto english works | 11:37 |
| chris_99 | have you guys heard of linguistic relativity, re. language? | 11:37 |
| FourFire | kanzure, I asked you what you found to be suboptimal about scientific papers | 11:37 |
| @kanzure | yes, and you took the opposite of my answer | 11:38 |
| FourFire | I'm sort of for text based information, because of high information density per amount of data | 11:38 |
| nmz787_i | really the only 'better' I can think of would be some sort of memory/experience transfer | 11:40 |
| @kanzure | there are alternative ways of recording scientific information without invoking "machine comprehension" | 11:40 |
| nmz787_i | which text, movies, audio are all fragments of | 11:40 |
| FourFire | "xml is the defacto standard of machine parsability" I'm saying we make a new standard (snrk) which is layman readable, and maybe even layman writable | 11:40 |
| @kanzure | that's [Bfourthat's still text though | 11:40 |
| @kanzure | blah | 11:40 |
| @kanzure | FourFire: that's still text though | 11:40 |
| nmz787_i | but who wants to re-live a whole 5 years of trial and tribulation for some science discovery... some people only want the abstract | 11:40 |
| @kanzure | nmz787_i: suppose that everyone had the same lab equipment api | 11:41 |
| nmz787_i | and then human memories might not be machine usable until we get brain uploading to work | 11:41 |
| @kanzure | nmz787_i: they would then have "software" for orchestrating the api | 11:41 |
| @kanzure | nmz787_i: and publish the piles of software instead, which is not exactly a "pile of text" per-se | 11:41 |
| FourFire | then scientists, might be able to write their papers in "machine-english" and, if it's possible and done correctly, computers might *understand* the content | 11:41 |
| FourFire | and be able to do things with it | 11:41 |
| FourFire | you people know what's disgusting? | 11:41 |
| ParahSailin | machine english exists already and there are validating parsers for it | 11:41 |
| @kanzure | what does it mean to "understand".. that's a hugely vague word. | 11:42 |
| @kanzure | how about instead of arbitrary things like understand, you pick exact targets like, repeatability | 11:42 |
| @kanzure | the majority of molecular biology is a dice toss | 11:42 |
| FourFire | kanzure, ok, what format would you prefer? | 11:42 |
| FourFire | sound? | 11:42 |
| FourFire | *olfactory* | 11:42 |
| FourFire | *tactile patterns* | 11:43 |
| @kanzure | data can be made that isn't meant for reading/writing like books or novels | 11:43 |
| cpopell | how do you transmit its content to brains? | 11:43 |
| FourFire | so, visual | 11:43 |
| @kanzure | do you really need to transmit the content to brains? | 11:43 |
| @kanzure | you just need to be able to transmit it to other labs and people doing lab stuff | 11:43 |
| cpopell | people doing lab stuff are brains. | 11:43 |
| @kanzure | does your brain really know each byte of your operating system etc? | 11:44 |
| FourFire | it has to be translatable into some form of human sense which is understandable without some odd specilized form of training | 11:44 |
| @kanzure | lab training is already pretty specialized | 11:44 |
| FourFire | reading/writing is pretty much standard for most people these days | 11:44 |
| @kanzure | and odd | 11:44 |
| @kanzure | reading/writing is not actually enough for most molecular biology training, as an example | 11:44 |
| FourFire | "do you really need to transmit the content to brains?" | 11:44 |
| FourFire | yes | 11:44 |
| @kanzure | actually, ParahSailin might disagree with my last statement, although i'm not sure | 11:44 |
| FourFire | unless you are magically going to offload all research onto machines | 11:44 |
| ParahSailin | "and then you bang the flask on the bench like so" | 11:45 |
| FourFire | kanzure, you neglected to make a proposal, which was superior to papers, so I made mine, which is superior in that it is (possibly) machine readable | 11:45 |
| ParahSailin | "ding, trypsinized" | 11:45 |
| @kanzure | "it's somewhere between a one-quarter inch and one-half inch punch" | 11:46 |
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| @kanzure | "make sure it swirls to the left, unless you're below the equator" | 11:46 |
| @kanzure | ParahSailin: i think a lot of it is going to have to be thrown out | 11:46 |
| @kanzure | ParahSailin: it's just useless | 11:47 |
| FourFire | kanzure, by *understand* I mean, to be able to take bytes of data and then mix them in a similar way that brains work with concepts | 11:48 |
| ParahSailin | if we throw out these die rolls, then how will we mulligan experiments until we get the desired result? | 11:48 |
| cpopell | http://www.news.wisc.edu/22756 Fuuuuuu | 11:48 |
| FourFire | like parsing a linguistic logic sentence | 11:48 |
| delinquentme | Do you guys know if theres a python codebase or an API to take a firefox screenshot of a website and return either an image or static URL? | 11:49 |
| ParahSailin | phantomjs | 11:49 |
| @kanzure | delinquentme: just use testling or browserling if you want something quick. if you want something that sucks you can use firefox+selenium. | 11:49 |
| @kanzure | ParahSailin: phantomjs is not gecko/firefox unfortunately | 11:49 |
| FourFire | oh great, I hope they don't do retarded things and actually uncover stuff like male and female brains being structurally different, or whatever it is | 11:49 |
| ParahSailin | kanzure: i was reading into him being imprecise | 11:50 |
| @kanzure | oh yeah i should have done that | 11:50 |
| @kanzure | given historical evidence | 11:50 |
| delinquentme | kanzure, specifically I need image capturing | 11:50 |
| @kanzure | phantomjs | 11:50 |
| FourFire | "reading/writing is not actually enough for most molecular biology training, as an example" I agree, but not all papers are molecular biology | 11:51 |
| FourFire | maybe my idea is too ambitious | 11:51 |
| FourFire | at best, it could lower the bar to a slightly less educated superset of people | 11:51 |
| @kanzure | "your" idea is lacking an implementation despite thousands of people trying | 11:51 |
| delinquentme | and phantom.js can use different browsers | 11:52 |
| @kanzure | phantomjs is only webkit | 11:52 |
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| @kanzure | there's more than just moelcular biology that suffers from similar issues | 11:53 |
| @kanzure | *suffer | 11:53 |
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| FourFire | I wonder if/where there are internet tests which allow you to check your proficiency, or literacy inside scientific fields | 11:56 |
| FourFire | I, personally am not educated in anything besides basic physics, secondary biology and secondary chemistry | 11:57 |
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| FourFire | But, I feel like (confirmation bias) I'm more of a scientific oriented person in general, and there is some sort of (aura effect) knock on knowledge which allows me to understand more of scientific papers, in other areas | 12:00 |
| FourFire | more, than what I assume (typical mind, projection fallacy) other people do. | 12:00 |
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| nmz787_i | delinquentme: maybe printscreening a headless instance of chromium via https://code.google.com/p/cefpython/wiki/VirtualKey | 12:02 |
| nmz787_i | delinquentme: cefpython.VK_SNAPSHOT # Print Screen key | 12:02 |
| @kanzure | if he wants multiple browsers then his only option is selenium or a service like browserling | 12:03 |
| nmz787_i | ahh | 12:03 |
| dingo | delinquentme: if you have osx, and safari is an option, i once helped someone write python code that uses the cocoa api to simply launch safari at a url and grab a png of the rendered page | 12:06 |
| @kanzure | phantomjs works on osx and has the advantage of also being webkit (like safari is using) | 12:07 |
| dingo | not that i have the code, but, its possible and was pretty easy at the time | 12:07 |
| dingo | (and no actual safar window would be visible, headless, as you ask) | 12:07 |
| @kanzure | oh hm | 12:07 |
| xentrac | FourFire: if your level of proficiency is unknown to you, then how will you know which tests to trust? | 12:07 |
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| @kanzure | :) | 12:08 |
| xentrac | e.g. the hacker purity test which asks, among other things, "can you build a puffer train?" is pretty awesome in some ways | 12:08 |
| xentrac | but it's also outdated | 12:08 |
| @kanzure | hrm i imagine that's mostly a question about whether you (1) can forge and smelt and (2) remember basic train engine structure | 12:09 |
| @kanzure | oh. cellular automata. that's disappointing. | 12:09 |
| xentrac | haha | 12:09 |
| xentrac | no, it's AWESOME | 12:09 |
| FourFire | xentrac, it's still very much a barrier to entry which cuts off everyone who can't | 12:10 |
| xentrac | but imagine how puzzled I was about your response until I figured that you were talking to me | 12:10 |
| nmz787_i | steam engines came to my mind when i saw that | 12:10 |
| @kanzure | yeah, why should cellular automata be more hacker-oriented than backyarding a steam engine? | 12:11 |
| delinquentme | you guys rock :D | 12:11 |
| delinquentme | looks like Im getting ot use phantom.js :D | 12:14 |
| delinquentme | http://stackoverflow.com/questions/12450868/how-to-print-html-source-to-console-with-phantomjs | 12:14 |
| delinquentme | that little bit of code looks way too simple ... but im gonna try this out | 12:14 |
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| nmz787_i | ha, i like the quote on the phantomjs author's website 'don't code today what you can't debug tomorrow' | 12:16 |
| delinquentme | HAAA fuck im so happy. kanzure +1 | 12:16 |
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| cpopell | anyone know of a decent rss reader, paid or free, that has word search with tagging? | 12:26 |
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| xentrac | kanzure: that's a very interesting question: why are CAs more hackish than steam engines? | 12:47 |
| xentrac | and I don't have a good answer | 12:47 |
| xentrac | historical contingency? economic requirements? manual skills? risk of death? | 12:48 |
| xentrac | the difficulty of putting the steam engine on your ftp site or posting it to Usenet? | 12:49 |
| cpopell | lack of lifting capabilities required | 12:50 |
| cpopell | :P | 12:50 |
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| xentrac | well, that's usually resolved with chain lifts anyway | 12:50 |
| xentrac | it could also be that steam engines are too simple (in the sense of having few parts) to be interesting to hackers who have the alternative of computers available | 12:51 |
| cpopell | so, poked at SAP Lumira | 12:52 |
| cpopell | Someone saw the money in Tableau | 12:52 |
| xentrac | hmm, that sounded overly dismissive, which I didn't mean | 12:52 |
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| xentrac | some hackers are certainly gearheads | 12:52 |
| xentrac | but not because they are hackers | 12:52 |
| cpopell | yeah, but as a percentage | 12:52 |
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| @kanzure | xentrac: what do you mean "but not because they are hackers"? for context, i would definitely say my interest in mechanical things is because of hacking, and not the other way around | 13:02 |
| @kanzure | xentrac: meanwhile, finding any machinist that knows anything about computing is pretty difficult | 13:03 |
| heath | hm, serf or consul | 13:04 |
| @kanzure | serf | 13:04 |
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| xentrac | kanzure: I think most hackers are interested in mechanical things for hackish reasons | 14:11 |
| @kanzure | sure | 14:12 |
| xentrac | but unless you're wealthy, that has historically not been enough to get you into actually doing things | 14:12 |
| xentrac | now that we have RepRaps, that is starting to change | 14:12 |
| @kanzure | i had always ussed that it was because the idea just didn't occur to them, not because of a lack of wealth | 14:12 |
| @kanzure | things were cheap to do even before reprap, though | 14:12 |
| @kanzure | *always assumed | 14:12 |
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| xentrac | well, I think the mental orientation needed to successfully rebuild a Volkswagen engine, for example, is pretty different from the mental orientation needed to successfully write a compiler | 14:13 |
| @kanzure | i mean, it's not like hackers everywhere are sitting around thinking about mechanical hackery | 14:13 |
| xentrac | although there are some things in common | 14:13 |
| Lemminkainen | hie thee to an endmill, kanzure | 14:13 |
| xentrac | while the mental orientation needed to build a puffer train is pretty similar to what's needed for a compiler | 14:14 |
| @kanzure | hm! well it's certainly true that a volkswagen engine isn't "merely juggling a bunch of competing grammar rules and linkerstuff" | 14:14 |
| @kanzure | although there's been lots of funny broken attempts at hardware non-electronic-related vhdl/vlsi stuff | 14:15 |
| xentrac | yeah | 14:16 |
| xentrac | I think for that to happen we are going to need someone who's simultaneously a good machinist and a good hacker | 14:16 |
| xentrac | and a good mechanical engineer, I think | 14:17 |
| @kanzure | that's basically fenn, except i stole all his ideas and claimed them as my own | 14:17 |
| @kanzure | http://fennetic.net/ | 14:17 |
| xentrac | what happened to him? | 14:17 |
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| @kanzure | well he spent a few years in the desert in what i would call the "burning man is never gonna end, man" phase | 14:17 |
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| xentrac | like 2012 to 2014? | 14:18 |
| @kanzure | yes? | 14:18 |
| xentrac | ah | 14:18 |
| xentrac | burning man is pretty awesome | 14:18 |
| xentrac | I think it's contributed a lot to getting hackers into making machinery | 14:19 |
| Lemminkainen | I've dreamt of putting metal lathes on the street corners of SF | 14:19 |
| Lemminkainen | it would be a self-selecting skill process and might get more people into it | 14:20 |
| xentrac | <Lemminkainen> shivs for all! | 14:20 |
| Lemminkainen | CLASSY shivs | 14:20 |
| Lemminkainen | with beveled edges and flat design | 14:20 |
| xentrac | one thing about metal lathes | 14:21 |
| xentrac | compilers don't CRUNCH when you misuse them | 14:21 |
| Lemminkainen | or rip your knuckles to shreds | 14:21 |
| Lemminkainen | maybe hot-glue guns and glitter is a better start for such wayward brogrammers | 14:22 |
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| @kanzure | xentrac: he might be around in a bit, i established phone contact | 14:24 |
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| fenn | huzzah | 14:35 |
| @kanzure | xentrac: compilers can have equally damaging security issues though | 14:35 |
| fenn | oh it's kragen sitaker | 14:35 |
| @kanzure | known anomaly? | 14:35 |
| fenn | xentrac: i've been playing around with your byn script (wikipedia microprinting) | 14:35 |
| fenn | xentrac: http://fennetic.net/irc/combat_droid_byn_500w_2c_step1.gif | 14:37 |
| fenn | sorry i havent been around ##hplusroadmap, i've been dead for approximately one of your earth years | 14:38 |
| fenn | i guess a library needed for irssi was updated and irssi hung for some number of months | 14:40 |
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| fenn | kanzure: something you might find interesting, "ranger" a ncurses file manager | 14:45 |
| @kanzure | looks okay | 14:46 |
| @kanzure | http://ranger.nongnu.org/screenshots/screenshot0.png | 14:47 |
| fenn | i never figured out how to get bitmap images in the console though (or ascii art images either for that matter) | 14:47 |
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| @kanzure | substack did something called picture-tube | 14:49 |
| @kanzure | https://github.com/substack/picture-tube (ascii art) | 14:49 |
| dingo | http://1984.ws/rivermeadow.png | 14:50 |
| dingo | my next resume will be ansi art | 14:50 |
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| @kanzure | dingo: how bored are you | 14:50 |
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| dingo | not bored, burned out | 14:50 |
| @kanzure | didn't take long :/ | 14:51 |
| @kanzure | kinda impressive really | 14:51 |
| dingo | that picturetube didn't uhh have any code, but it looks like it was made using libcaca, http://caca.zoy.org/wiki/libcaca | 14:51 |
| @kanzure | oh. | 14:51 |
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| fenn | aaview is better than libcaca as far as image quality is concerned, though frankly any ascii art package should do minimal edge detection and use the characters as something like DCT blocks, instead of simple average brightness | 14:57 |
| fenn | er, asciiview, or aview (where did aaview come from?) | 14:59 |
| fenn | OCR for properly displaying text is pretty important too.. all this assumes anyone actually cares about ascii as a display method, instead of the dancing bear factor | 15:00 |
| dingo | http://nyancat.dakko.us/ | 15:01 |
| fenn | does anyone know why old monitors were amber colored? | 15:03 |
| dingo | why? it was just nicer than green | 15:03 |
| dingo | i had an amber wyse terminal | 15:03 |
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| dingo | white, green, or amber, that was basically the choice | 15:04 |
| dingo | i liked amber best | 15:04 |
| fenn | I agree wholeheartedly, but there must be some scientific reason so many things have converged on this particular shade of yellow-orange | 15:04 |
| eudoxia | i was starting to wonder where fenn had gone | 15:04 |
| fenn | hello eudoxia, i was dead | 15:04 |
| eudoxia | O: | 15:05 |
| fenn | fortunately the cryonics society was able to revive me, since we're in the future now | 15:05 |
| eudoxia | also, #AD3108 orange is best orange | 15:05 |
| eudoxia | fenn: don't you mean the cryonics institute, unless the ACS became some sort of cryonics underground while I wasn't paying attention? | 15:06 |
| fenn | shhh | 15:06 |
| fenn | reviving the dead isn't yet legal, don't go spreading it around | 15:07 |
| fenn | i've been using #ca0 and #da0 lately | 15:07 |
| fenn | (for html links) | 15:07 |
| eudoxia | how do you even perceive the difference | 15:09 |
| fenn | i guess that's #CCAA00 and #DDAA00, not #C0A000/#D0A000 | 15:09 |
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| fenn | you can tell when there are some links on a page and one looks darker | 15:10 |
| dingo | fenn: somebody did the world cup over telnet, using ascii art, and used closed captioning to provide naturally ascii subtitles | 15:10 |
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| eudoxia | what is it with people and ASCII art | 15:11 |
| dingo | http://ascii-wm.net/ | 15:11 |
| fenn | it's like pixel-art for old fogeys | 15:11 |
| fenn | just wait, once the majority of displays are OLED we'll have persistence of vision art | 15:12 |
| fenn | just a single line | 15:12 |
| fenn | moving a color picker over its own output is interesting | 15:14 |
| xentrac | fenn: oh cool! I'm pleasantly surprised that you've found it useful | 15:14 |
| da_shirlz_HBIC_ | paperbot http://www.sciencemag.org/content/335/6070/831.short | 15:15 |
| paperbot | http://libgen.org/scimag/get.php?doi=10.1126%2Fscience.1214081 | 15:15 |
| xentrac | Lemminkainen: I think maybe the biggest difference is that you can't revert an unwanted change to your engine | 15:15 |
| fenn | xentrac: i want to make a downloadable wikipedia app for e-ink readers like nook. it's a big project though | 15:15 |
| da_shirlz_HBIC_ | paperbot http://www.sciencemag.org/content/335/6070/831.short | 15:15 |
| paperbot | http://libgen.org/scimag/get.php?doi=10.1126%2Fscience.1214081 | 15:15 |
| xentrac | fenn: that combat droid looks fantastic | 15:16 |
| fenn | the model was made by long0800 | 15:16 |
| fenn | http://cargocollective.com/long0800 | 15:17 |
| cpopell | ugh | 15:17 |
| xentrac | as for amber, I assume that of the couple of dozen phosphors available, that was one of the few with a persistence in the optimal range | 15:17 |
| cpopell | when friends say 'I think I have an idea on how to make AI' | 15:17 |
| cpopell | Sigh. | 15:17 |
| cpopell | 'first we need to write a new natural language system' | 15:18 |
| fenn | some day i'll be able to paint like that | 15:18 |
| xentrac | yes, a downloadable wikipedia for e-ink readers would be super awesome | 15:18 |
| fenn | cpopell: oh you mean loglan, lojban, calxism, etc | 15:18 |
| eudoxia | 'i think i can make an AI' is like the nerd version of those stoner theory-of-everything manifestos | 15:19 |
| cpopell | new people in here-anyone know of an RSS with robust auto-tagging features? | 15:19 |
| cpopell | *RSS reader | 15:19 |
| @kanzure | calxism language was not particularly instrumental to the core concept, but nice try | 15:19 |
| fenn | why do people use RSS? how can you possibly not have enough stuff to read already? | 15:20 |
| cpopell | fenn: cataloguing and storing sci/tech developments I find interesting | 15:20 |
| xentrac | fenn: once you have enough stuff to read, the next step is to find ways to avoid reading it | 15:21 |
| fenn | but not everything is in RSS so then you need a subsuming paradigm to merge your RSS and PDF or whatever | 15:21 |
| eudoxia | wait, what is this calxism thing | 15:21 |
| @kanzure | eudoxia: i was indoctrinated into an internet cult at an early age | 15:21 |
| cpopell | fenn: er, this is for short news articles, not long form reading | 15:21 |
| cpopell | some interesting results when I google calxism | 15:22 |
| fenn | eudoxia: leibniz said "one day we will stop arguing, instead we'll sit down with our calculating devices and calculate the logical resolution to any problem" | 15:22 |
| eudoxia | kanzure: i saw a post by you that reads remarkably less wrongy | 15:22 |
| @kanzure | eudoxia: i regret everything | 15:22 |
| cpopell | (6) What if the hokey pokey really is what it's all about? | 15:22 |
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| eudoxia | it happens to the best of us kanz | 15:23 |
| eudoxia | probably | 15:23 |
| @kanzure | yes i'm lucky i didn't sit down writing utility functions or something | 15:24 |
| * cpopell wrote some dumb shit when he was 15 | 15:24 | |
| fenn | not me, all my english class essays were top notch | 15:24 |
| cpopell | oh, sure, my english essays were fine | 15:24 |
| eudoxia | sometimes i-i secretly hope the internet archive burns down | 15:24 |
| eudoxia | just a few fileservers :? | 15:25 |
| xentrac | eudoxia: we'd been wondering who set that fire | 15:25 |
| @kanzure | it did burn down | 15:25 |
| * xentrac dispatches the hounds | 15:25 | |
| xentrac | (hint: traceroute my IP) | 15:25 |
| fenn | we'll just ask the NSA for a copy | 15:25 |
| FourFire | " 'i think i can make an AI' is like the nerd version of those stoner theory-of-everything manifestos" nice quote, I' | 15:25 |
| FourFire | 'm going to use it next time one such turns up | 15:25 |
| fenn | FourFire: are you rastafarian? | 15:26 |
| xentrac | fenn: in a sense my ideal for the internet is kind of like a better version of the public library | 15:26 |
| eudoxia | wow it did actually burn down once | 15:26 |
| fenn | xentrac: naw that's missing out on 99% of the functionality | 15:26 |
| FourFire | "i saw a post by you that reads remarkably less wrongy" eudoxia linky? | 15:26 |
| eudoxia | but I wasn't in the US at the time (or ever) so it wasn't some split personality | 15:27 |
| fenn | xentrac: your nook should be the public library tho | 15:27 |
| xentrac | right | 15:27 |
| eudoxia | FourFire: https://www.livebusinesschat.com/smf/index.php?topic=61.0 | 15:27 |
| xentrac | fenn: specifically when thinking about information overload though | 15:27 |
| FourFire | fenn, I'm not sure, so that's a no | 15:27 |
| xentrac | there's far more text in a good public library than you'll ever read | 15:27 |
| fenn | there's far more on my nook than i'll ever read too | 15:27 |
| @kanzure | eudoxia: your stalkpower is increasing | 15:27 |
| @kanzure | i don't think you should be expected to read the entire public library | 15:28 |
| fenn | actually, there's probably more on my nook than in a public library | 15:28 |
| xentrac | but you don't have the urgency to read it | 15:28 |
| @kanzure | piles of text is not mechanically useful to me | 15:28 |
| @kanzure | it's like asking me to write or rewrite all of debian's packages | 15:28 |
| xentrac | I've often thought about doing that | 15:28 |
| @kanzure | there should be some functional form to our civilization content | 15:28 |
| @kanzure | and not just dna that folds into shitty proteins | 15:28 |
| eudoxia | kanzure: that was on the first page of google | 15:28 |
| dingo | i've noticed public libraries becoming more media-oriented -- audio cd's, movies, etc... its sad | 15:28 |
| eudoxia | i think my best internet stalking was when me and kirka tracked down that guy, uh, markus krunnemacker i think | 15:29 |
| @kanzure | well, media should be archived too | 15:29 |
| cpopell | An old friend taught me how to internet-stalk. | 15:29 |
| cpopell | he made me find his house number | 15:29 |
| @kanzure | 1) discover the heartbleed vulnerability 2) read the memory of whatever server you think has the data | 15:30 |
| Lemminkainen | 3) have apple pie | 15:30 |
| FourFire | ideology and cult in the same post... | 15:30 |
| @kanzure | FourFire: i'm over it, don't worry | 15:31 |
| FourFire | yeah, taking into consideration that it's been nearly a decade since you wrote that | 15:31 |
| fenn | cult is just short for culture | 15:31 |
| @kanzure | that doesn't mean culture is good | 15:31 |
| cpopell | fenn: cult is short for cultus | 15:31 |
| cpopell | or 'worship' | 15:31 |
| eudoxia | "culture is for bootlickers im so libertarian i don't even talk to ppl" | 15:32 |
| @kanzure | and apparently use abbreviations | 15:32 |
| FourFire | "will you shoot me?" | 15:32 |
| @kanzure | FourFire: i don't recommend reading into it | 15:33 |
| FourFire | :D | 15:33 |
| Lemminkainen | http://i.imgur.com/fEqegwZ.gif | 15:33 |
| eudoxia | 'oil rig ROV camera footage' should be its own genre of horror | 15:35 |
| Lemminkainen | coming soon to Oculus Rift | 15:35 |
| @kanzure | because life is horrible? | 15:35 |
| eudoxia | kanzure: i hope your stalking log keeps some sort of record of my hilarious one liners | 15:35 |
| Lemminkainen | life isn't so much horrible as horribly perverted and persistent | 15:36 |
| @kanzure | i think that log is the sort of document that gets kids in school locked up for admitting to | 15:36 |
| @kanzure | fenn: it's inconvenient for a large civilization to have everything trapped in text | 15:42 |
| Lemminkainen | what's your alternative, kanzure? | 15:42 |
| eudoxia | YAML files | 15:42 |
| @kanzure | a billion yaml files | 15:42 |
| Lemminkainen | media isn't asychronous | 15:42 |
| Lemminkainen | I don't think a billion would be enough | 15:43 |
| @kanzure | neither is text | 15:43 |
| Lemminkainen | I consume text asychronously | 15:43 |
| xentrac | to this discussion of "media" I would like to point out that paper and ink are media. | 15:44 |
| @kanzure | enki1 certainly did- he was experimenting with 4 to 5 simultaneous audio streams (mostly fiction) | 15:44 |
| eudoxia | reminds me of that guy who used a text-to-speech thing real fast | 15:45 |
| @kanzure | the best kind of knowledge is the sort that handles itself | 15:45 |
| @kanzure | like compiler infrastructure | 15:46 |
| eudoxia | how do compilers handle themselves | 15:47 |
| eudoxia | because they compile themselves? | 15:47 |
| eudoxia | (sometimes) | 15:47 |
| fenn | why is that even a question? it's just a program like any other program | 15:47 |
| fenn | something something godel completeness theorem something | 15:49 |
| @kanzure | strange thing is that i think it's still actually possible to read all wikipedia articles | 15:49 |
| @kanzure | only 5M right? | 15:49 |
| fenn | but what order do you read them? they will be different by the time you are done downloading them all | 15:49 |
| Lemminkainen | does reading them have to be that high fidelity? | 15:50 |
| fenn | (clicking "random wikipedia page" was one of the most depressing things I've ever done, there's so much useless crap that will never matter) | 15:50 |
| Lemminkainen | if you have some mutation in the text as you go, then I see no problem with it | 15:51 |
| Lemminkainen | <some small level of background mutation that could be measured> | 15:51 |
| fenn | check it out, useless knowledge: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Triathlon_at_the_2006_Asian_Games_%E2%80%93_Men%27s_individual | 15:52 |
| fenn | why do the deletionists even bother i wonder | 15:52 |
| eudoxia | apparently it's called "random article" now | 15:53 |
| eudoxia | two-sentence articles that are just an infobox about some middle-of-bumfuck-nowhere town should probably be in a separate site | 15:53 |
| @kanzure | the data arbitration sentience entity disagrees. | 15:53 |
| fenn | i think many of those location pages were moved to toolserver.org | 15:54 |
| eudoxia | also the endless, endless collection of articles about sport events | 15:54 |
| eudoxia | millions of them | 15:54 |
| @kanzure | crap i'm starting to cross nagaru tanigawa and vernor vinge | 15:54 |
| fenn | (arbitration?) | 15:55 |
| eudoxia | next up kanzure's novel: The deep fire upon Haruhi Suzumiya | 15:55 |
| fenn | a brony fan fic | 15:56 |
| fenn | exploring the methods of rationality | 15:56 |
| @kanzure | fenn: http://lesswrong.com/lw/jgz/aalwa_ask_any_lesswronger_anything/ap84 "I do have some early role models. I recall wanting to be a real-life version of the fictional "Sandor Arbitration Intelligence at the Zoo" (from Vernor Vinge's novel A Fire Upon the Deep) who in the story is known for consistently writing the clearest and most insightful posts on the Net. And then there was Hal Finney who probably came closest to an actual real-life ... | 15:56 |
| @kanzure | ... version of Sandor at the Zoo, and Tim May who besides inspiring me with his vision of cryptoanarchy was also a role model for doing early retirement from the tech industry and working on his own interests/causes." | 15:56 |
| @kanzure | fenn: from why-wei-dei-is-probably-satoshi-nakamoto.txt | 15:56 |
| eudoxia | guys maybe satoshi kon is satoshi nakamoto | 15:58 |
| eudoxia | (1) he's japanese (2) he's named satoshi (3) he disappeared around the time satoshi disappeared | 15:58 |
| eudoxia | (4) he's into anime so he's probably into computers (reverse causality?) | 15:58 |
| Lemminkainen | impeccable logic | 15:58 |
| Lemminkainen | I hereby peer review it and approve it for submission to Bloomberg | 15:59 |
| * xentrac peccs the logic | 15:59 | |
| fenn | the only net personality i remember is "twirlip of the mists" http://web.hexapodia.org/ | 15:59 |
| @kanzure | that sounds like an awful nethack name | 15:59 |
| eudoxia | we're through the looking glass here people | 15:59 |
| @kanzure | actually i think that one is from the book too | 15:59 |
| xentrac | Hexapodia as the key insight | 16:00 |
| Lemminkainen | welcome home eudoxia | 16:00 |
| fenn | xentrac: you have to admit, it explains quite a few things! | 16:00 |
| fenn | for example the fondness for hexagons | 16:00 |
| eudoxia | another data point: he wrote part of katsuhiro otomo's Memories. another episode of that anthology is about a future dystopian perpetual-war society | 16:01 |
| eudoxia | the facts just keep piling up | 16:01 |
| xentrac | they do. to the point that libraries have to start using microfilm and CD-ROM. | 16:01 |
| xentrac | what's the cheapest way to make a single copy of an N-bit string that could plausibly survive a millennium? | 16:02 |
| xentrac | Laser printers are my current best. | 16:02 |
| eudoxia | xentrac: carve it into a big big stone | 16:02 |
| xentrac | how cheaply can you carve stone? | 16:02 |
| eudoxia | *shrug* i hear those sand blasters are pretty good | 16:02 |
| xentrac | sand blasters? | 16:03 |
| @kanzure | atomic force microscopes are surprisingly easy and cheap to build [depending on a personal preference for tolerances and accuracy] | 16:03 |
| fenn | there is even a major organized religion "hexagonalism" http://hexnet.org/about | 16:03 |
| fenn | xentrac: DNA | 16:03 |
| eudoxia | kanzure: alternating atoms on a surface to encode information can't be too long lived | 16:03 |
| @kanzure | DNA doesn't actually survive that long | 16:03 |
| fenn | a millennium is nothing | 16:03 |
| @kanzure | the half-life is only a few ten thousand years | 16:03 |
| eudoxia | a few stray cosmic rays and poof | 16:03 |
| xentrac | fenn: how cheap is DNA? | 16:04 |
| fenn | kanzure: not naked DNA, in a thing | 16:04 |
| fenn | uh, a living thing | 16:04 |
| @kanzure | oh right, 1000 years | 16:04 |
| @kanzure | yes dna can plausibly survive 1000 years | 16:04 |
| xentrac | a 1200dpi laser printer can print an A4 page for about 6 cents, which is a sixteenth of a square meter. that's about 2.2 gigabits per US$ | 16:04 |
| xentrac | can you order 1.1 gigabases of novel DNA for US$1? | 16:04 |
| fenn | if it's the right sequence, yes | 16:05 |
| xentrac | an acid-free A4 page. Otherwise it costs 3 cents but will only last a few decades at best | 16:05 |
| xentrac | the right sequence? | 16:05 |
| fenn | "you can get any color you like, as long as it's human-colored" | 16:05 |
| xentrac | human DNA isn't novel | 16:05 |
| fenn | what! every new human has a different sequence than all the others | 16:06 |
| xentrac | sure, you have maybe 25 to 100 bits of novelty | 16:06 |
| @kanzure | moving around gold or carbon on a surface would be cheaper than de novo dna synthesis at this point | 16:06 |
| Lemminkainen | put a retrotransposon into the germline near an important metabolic gene | 16:06 |
| xentrac | how cheap is moving around gold or carbon on a surface? | 16:06 |
| Lemminkainen | let the information encoded therein descend through time through procreation | 16:06 |
| @kanzure | well you can build an afm in parts for <$1k | 16:06 |
| fenn | xentrac: what is "cheap" | 16:06 |
| xentrac | 2.2 gigabytes per US$, as I said | 16:07 |
| fenn | no, i mean the definition | 16:07 |
| xentrac | gigabits, sorry | 16:07 |
| xentrac | cheap: costing little money | 16:07 |
| eudoxia | hm for that cost you'd probably need an AFM with many tips | 16:07 |
| xentrac | kanzure: how high is the bit rate of the AFM? | 16:08 |
| xentrac | and how long does it last before it breaks? | 16:08 |
| fenn | so, i have in my pocket a $20 supercomputer with high resolution color display, multi band network radio, sensors out the wazoo | 16:08 |
| fenn | why is it "cheap"? | 16:08 |
| xentrac | fenn: mostly because of mass production | 16:08 |
| eudoxia | xentrac: http://journals.aps.org/prl/abstract/10.1103/PhysRevLett.106.136101 | 16:09 |
| @kanzure | paperbot: http://journals.aps.org/prl/abstract/10.1103/PhysRevLett.106.136101 | 16:09 |
| paperbot | http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/paperbot/475108cbb2f5ec2d30bd470770be3dde.txt | 16:09 |
| @kanzure | :( | 16:09 |
| xentrac | fenn: I explored using the processes used to produce your pocket supercomputer for archiving information | 16:09 |
| eudoxia | here it is http://nanomanipulation.ut.ee/abs/Sweetman_oral.pdf | 16:09 |
| fenn | sure nmz787 was playing around with FIB'ing the bible on the head of a pin, or something | 16:10 |
| @kanzure | photolithography? | 16:10 |
| xentrac | yeah | 16:10 |
| FourFire | wei dei satoshi? | 16:10 |
| FourFire | lel | 16:10 |
| xentrac | it turns out that MOSIS is a couple of orders of magnitude more expensive than a laser printer | 16:10 |
| @kanzure | i guess etchants are easier to work with than afm calibration | 16:10 |
| fenn | you know what's in a FIB? mostly nothing | 16:10 |
| fenn | building huge arrays of them in orbit would be relatively straightforward (it's getting to orbit that's the problem) | 16:10 |
| xentrac | eudoxia: that's just the abstract | 16:10 |
| eudoxia | oh top lel | 16:11 |
| xentrac | FIB? | 16:11 |
| eudoxia | focused ion beam something | 16:11 |
| xentrac | ah, that makes sense | 16:11 |
| xentrac | either that or an AFM might be a better approach than using a laser printer | 16:11 |
| xentrac | but I don't have a good sense of how much they cost in the end | 16:12 |
| fenn | what's the purpose of this endeavor? don't CD-roms last long enough in reasonable storage conditions? | 16:12 |
| eudoxia | some dude made an AFM for 100 USD | 16:12 |
| eudoxia | i don't think it was sub-micron | 16:13 |
| fenn | the thing is you need a computer to read a CD-rom, whereas a human can read microprint with a paperclip and a drop of water | 16:13 |
| xentrac | CD-Rs only last a few years, usually; archival-quality ones are supposed to last 300 years | 16:13 |
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| fenn | right but nobody really knows | 16:13 |
| fenn | DNA has been around for billions of years | 16:14 |
| eudoxia | like those space shuttle screws that had impossibly-low-to-test failure rates | 16:14 |
| xentrac | however, they aren't really that much cheaper: US$0.10 for a 700MB CD-R is only 56 gigabits per US$ | 16:14 |
| fenn | that's pretty cheap | 16:14 |
| xentrac | which is better than 2.2 but that's at the cost of degrading in a few short years | 16:15 |
| xentrac | and, yes, also needing a computer | 16:15 |
| xentrac | I think that you could probably use AFMs or ion beams to print holograms that people could read with a magnifying glass | 16:15 |
| xentrac | dependent on the light angle | 16:16 |
| Lemminkainen | I would hide it in ant genomes | 16:16 |
| eudoxia | that's a good plot for a sci fi novel | 16:16 |
| xentrac | Lemminkainen: how much do genomes cost? if the cost is higher than US$1 per 1.1 gigabases then laser printers win | 16:16 |
| eudoxia | kind of like the message in pi from Contact | 16:16 |
| fenn | there's a tree in yuma arizona that is about 10,000 years old | 16:17 |
| xentrac | Jaron Lanier proposed using cockroaches: http://www.jaronlanier.com/roach.html | 16:17 |
| fenn | they accidentally killed the oldest one by measuring its age | 16:17 |
| xentrac | fuck | 16:17 |
| xentrac | at the time it was US$0.60 per base pair, which compares very poorly with laser printers. but that was 1999 | 16:18 |
| fenn | they didnt know it was the oldest one until they measured though, so it was kinda unavoidable | 16:18 |
| @kanzure | dna synthesis and dna sequencing have different costs | 16:18 |
| @kanzure | synthesis is still pretty expensive and nobody is really putting pressure on the price | 16:18 |
| xentrac | this was synthesis | 16:18 |
| fenn | you actually want to do gene synthesis </pedantry> | 16:18 |
| Lemminkainen | xentrac I guess I care more about the format being clever than cheap | 16:19 |
| xentrac | Lemminkainen: DNA is clearly very clever, and it is also quite replicable | 16:19 |
| xentrac | DNA is probably the most cheaply replicable format we have | 16:19 |
| @kanzure | under very specific circumstances | 16:19 |
| fenn | xentrac: we've had hundreds of discussions around here about dna synthesis, so that's a known bias | 16:19 |
| @kanzure | pcr master mix is not as cheap as it could be | 16:20 |
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| @kanzure | unless you mean in vivo dna stuff | 16:20 |
| Lemminkainen | aye, I do | 16:20 |
| xentrac | yeah, in vivo | 16:20 |
| xentrac | any estimate on bit rate of AFM or FIB recording? | 16:20 |
| Lemminkainen | cost of 1 TALENs synthesis, 1 in vivo transfection | 16:20 |
| @kanzure | if you get down to torr^-9 then you can do single atom manipulation stuff | 16:21 |
| @kanzure | what are the dimensions of bit rate in this context? sorry | 16:21 |
| xentrac | ideally bits per dollar, but I was thinking that bits per second would provide a floor for bits per dollar | 16:23 |
| xentrac | a lower bound | 16:23 |
| xentrac | since your AFM has a limited lifetime | 16:23 |
| fenn | so how big is wikipedia in A4 sheet with tiny text? | 16:24 |
| fenn | vs how many hard drives (how big is it now anyway?) | 16:24 |
| @kanzure | one of the main factors to estimate is the cost per tungsten tip or the cost to build each tungsten tip (there's a do-it-yourself method but it requires some motor skills?) | 16:24 |
| xentrac | I don't think the cost per tungsten tip is significant | 16:25 |
| xentrac | fenn: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Size_of_Wikipedia has some estimates | 16:25 |
| xentrac | https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Size_in_volumes says 2625 million words | 16:26 |
| xentrac | not counting pictures | 16:27 |
| xentrac | 21 GB | 16:27 |
| fenn | so i'm seeing something like 44GB for the database (9GB compressed) and 23TB of images | 16:27 |
| xentrac | uncompressed | 16:27 |
| xentrac | I think it would be reasonable to focus just on the Vital Articles | 16:28 |
| fenn | oh there is such a thing? good | 16:28 |
| xentrac | for a start | 16:28 |
| xentrac | https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Vital_articles | 16:28 |
| xentrac | there's a top-ten list, a top-100 list, and a top-1000 list that is currently at 988 articles | 16:29 |
| fenn | hey Culture came in above Earth | 16:30 |
| fenn | huh it's all dead english white guys | 16:30 |
| xentrac | the top-10 list isn't ranked :) | 16:30 |
| xentrac | Avicenna, Nagarjuna, and Qin Shi Huang are dead english white guys? | 16:30 |
| fenn | i was looking at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Culture | 16:31 |
| xentrac | I mean there's a clear Occidental bias but it's hardly so overwhelming as that | 16:31 |
| xentrac | oh | 16:31 |
| fenn | the "number 1 article" apparently | 16:32 |
| xentrac | yeah, sure is | 16:32 |
| xentrac | no, it's just one of the top 10 | 16:32 |
| fenn | maybe the top 0 should just be a list of articles | 16:32 |
| xentrac | the first one in https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Vital_articles/Level/2 is Architecture | 16:33 |
| xentrac | the top 10 are in alphabetical order | 16:33 |
| xentrac | Culture comes before Earth because C is before E | 16:33 |
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| @kanzure | no love for protoculture | 16:33 |
| @kanzure | oops that's a real word, weird | 16:34 |
| @kanzure | there we go http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Protoculture_(Macross) | 16:34 |
| fenn | so those petroglyphs are 10,000 years old, what's the bitrate of spraying mud on rock | 16:35 |
| xentrac | kanzure: any idea if AFM engraving in, I don't know, wax is on the order of 10 bits per second, or 100, or 1000, or 10k, or 100k, or 1M, or 10M, or 100M? | 16:35 |
| xentrac | it depends on how you're spraying it | 16:35 |
| fenn | um, via inkjet | 16:35 |
| @kanzure | no, sorry, i don't have a good model of afm tip stuff | 16:35 |
| xentrac | ah, potentially very high | 16:35 |
| @kanzure | all i know is that everyone crashes their tip | 16:36 |
| xentrac | my experience making neo-petroglyphs suggests that the bit rate of carving stone is like 1bps | 16:36 |
| xentrac | by hand | 16:36 |
| fenn | what about just spraying tiny quantities of hydrofluoric acid | 16:36 |
| fenn | (ignoring the dissolving inkjet problem) | 16:36 |
| xentrac | you can do that, or you can print something that you use for resist later, like toner-transfer PCBs | 16:37 |
| xentrac | I wrote about this at | 16:37 |
| xentrac | http://lists.canonical.org/pipermail/kragen-tol/2005-May/000777.html | 16:37 |
| fenn | hmm that's a smarter way of doing it | 16:37 |
| xentrac | but still haven't tried it | 16:37 |
| xentrac | I'm pretty sure it's practical | 16:37 |
| fenn | it's practical for making circuit boards at least | 16:38 |
| xentrac | well I did try it in one sense | 16:38 |
| xentrac | I tried it with Coca-Cola | 16:38 |
| xentrac | didn't work | 16:38 |
| fenn | vinegar, hydrogen peroxide, and table salt | 16:38 |
| fenn | takes a while to get started but it works | 16:39 |
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| xentrac | neat, I didn't know that | 16:39 |
| xentrac | for copper, you mean? | 16:39 |
| fenn | uh, on copper i mean | 16:39 |
| xentrac | what color is the resulting solution? | 16:39 |
| fenn | green, but the tank fills up with crud | 16:39 |
| xentrac | I wonder if you can use that to get http://members.optusnet.com.au/eseychell/PCB/etching_CuCl/index.html | 16:41 |
| fenn | vinegar + sodium chloride yields HCl, cupric chloride is formed by reaction between the copper and HCl, and in the presence of oxygen CuCl dissolves the copper | 16:41 |
| fenn | right | 16:41 |
| xentrac | neat | 16:42 |
| fenn | you know if they're just going to stockpile all that gold they might as well engrave wikipedia on it | 16:42 |
| xentrac | it's easier to get hydrogen peroxide than hydrochloric acid here in Argentina | 16:42 |
| xentrac | I should take a lithography class so I can learn how to etch stone | 16:42 |
| fenn | well HCl is just vinegar plus salt (minus the sodium acetate) | 16:42 |
| fenn | there are a number of different chemical compounds known as "rock" or "stone", but you can dissolve silica (glass) with hydrofluoric acid | 16:44 |
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| fenn | it's nasty stuff, causes lung damage and forms tiny needles in your blood, so it's probably a good thing that it's hard to get | 16:44 |
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| Lemminkainen | you're not supposed to inhale the HCl or etchant | 16:45 |
| Lemminkainen | don't any of you heathens have fume hoods? | 16:45 |
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| fenn | whether a chemical is hard to get doesn't matter if we have fume hoods or not | 16:46 |
| fenn | sometimes I have trouble with english | 16:46 |
| xentrac | hmm, I think that if you mix vinegar and salt, you end up with vinegar and salt, not HCl and sodium acetate | 16:47 |
| xentrac | there are a lot of stones that are easier to etch than glass | 16:47 |
| fenn | sure, "rock salt" is water soluble | 16:48 |
| fenn | how easy to etch do you want it to be? | 16:49 |
| fenn | i suggested gold because it doesn't dissolve in hardly anything | 16:49 |
| fenn | oh fwiw glass is a ... "glass" or amorphous crystalline matrix, and it will flow like a liquid over thousands of years | 16:50 |
| xentrac | glass doesn't actually flow like liquid | 16:51 |
| fenn | but, i was taught in gradeschool! | 16:52 |
| xentrac | I know, me too | 16:52 |
| xentrac | gold is indeed pretty stable | 16:52 |
| eudoxia | so does glass flow like liquid or not | 16:52 |
| xentrac | rock salt *does* flow like liquid when under pressure, which I think makes it unsuitable | 16:52 |
| xentrac | no | 16:52 |
| eudoxia | :c | 16:52 |
| fenn | i think there are multiple misunderstandings around the "does glass flow" issue | 16:53 |
| xentrac | https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glass#Structure talks about them | 16:54 |
| eudoxia | is ice a slow moving liquid as long as it's above the vitrification point of water? | 16:54 |
| fenn | a plate of glass a meter tall and a centimeter thick was placed in an upright position at room temperature, the time required for the glass to flow down so as to thicken 10 angstrom units at the bottom (a change the size of only a few atoms) would theoretically be about the same as the age of the universe: close to ten billion years. | 16:55 |
| xentrac | eudoxia: no, ice crystallizes almost completely | 16:55 |
| eudoxia | oh man another cool shower thought that dies on contact with reality | 16:56 |
| eudoxia | like my dreams and hopes | 16:56 |
| xentrac | however, like salt, it does flow under pressure! | 16:56 |
| xentrac | glass has some great benefits as an archival medium | 16:56 |
| xentrac | it won't burn because it's already ash | 16:56 |
| xentrac | except in, say, a fluorine atmosphere | 16:56 |
| xentrac | and it | 16:57 |
| xentrac | it's extremely isotropic and uniform, down to the atomic level | 16:57 |
| xentrac | so you can write very, very small on it | 16:57 |
| xentrac | and it's extremely cheap | 16:57 |
| fenn | you could make a fluoride glass that wouldn't burn even in a fluorine atmosphere | 16:58 |
| xentrac | yes, I imagine that you could | 16:59 |
| xentrac | the solid fluorine compounds I know about tend to be pretty crystalline, but that's probably solvable | 17:00 |
| fenn | i would be remiss if in this context i didn't even mention the silliness of "storing" anything; probably you've read this article http://kk.org/thetechnium/2008/12/movage/ | 17:00 |
| xentrac | I mean window glass is mostly silica, and almost nothing loves to crystallize more than silica does | 17:00 |
| xentrac | that article is a good statement of the problem I want to solve | 17:01 |
| xentrac | if all you need to erase a fact forever is to ban it for five years, humanity is in danger | 17:01 |
| fenn | i found some old 3d models i made in mac OS 7 and have no idea how to get them into a modern format | 17:02 |
| xentrac | yeah | 17:03 |
| xentrac | on the other hand, textual STL files from the 1980s are still importable into modern software | 17:03 |
| fenn | the whole "resource fork" thing is bad enough, but apparently there's a "desktop database" that keeps track of all the files and their names | 17:03 |
| xentrac | and even if they weren't, you could hack something up pretty easily | 17:03 |
| @kanzure | except that stl is useless | 17:04 |
| fenn | I can export as DXF but it looks awful | 17:04 |
| fenn | the models are cubic bezier lofts, and dxf just uses the control points as vertices of the mesh | 17:05 |
| xentrac | yeah, stl kind of sucks | 17:05 |
| xentrac | aw :( | 17:05 |
| fenn | basically i just took a screenshot and said "welp guess that's that" | 17:05 |
| fenn | lesson: only use free software | 17:06 |
| xentrac | yeah, free software helps a lot | 17:07 |
| xentrac | but also media that someone will be able to read in 300 or 1000 years will help a lot too | 17:07 |
| fenn | kevin kelly's iMovie bitrot problem wasn't actually about data at all, it's about being locked into shitty proprietary formats | 17:08 |
| fenn | xentrac: but will anyone understand english in 1000 years? | 17:08 |
| xentrac | really? I think it's about using unstable heat-sensitive organic dyes to record your data | 17:08 |
| fenn | (personally I hope not) | 17:08 |
| xentrac | the problem isn't about iMovie | 17:08 |
| xentrac | it's about the DVDs he used for the backups | 17:09 |
| fenn | article subsection 1) Formats change. | 17:09 |
| xentrac | it seems likely that if there is anyone in 1000 years, they will be able to understand English | 17:09 |
| xentrac | I mean, what were the major languages 1000 years ago? Arabic, Chinese, Sanskrit/Hindi, Latin, and Greek | 17:10 |
| xentrac | more or less, right? | 17:10 |
| xentrac | and those are still the major languages today, with the addition of English | 17:11 |
| fenn | xentrac: let's make a bet: if, in 1000 years, the median sentient agent can parse 20th century english into a semantic tree, i will give you 1/1000 of my personal whuffie, and vice versa | 17:11 |
| xentrac | no, I don't care about the median | 17:11 |
| xentrac | the median sentient agent can't do that with Latin today | 17:11 |
| fenn | exactly | 17:11 |
| xentrac | but things written in Latin 1000 years ago are hardly unparsable today | 17:12 |
| xentrac | it's just that most of them are lost because there weren't enough copies | 17:12 |
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| fenn | how many standard deviations do you need until you can find someone who reads ancient latin (and understands all the idioms and allusions, probably none) | 17:12 |
| xentrac | we might hit a singularity in the next few decades that will render the whole discussion moot | 17:12 |
| fenn | i haven't read much of the long now stuff, but i did read "anathem" | 17:13 |
| xentrac | doesn't really matter though; I can muddle my way through Cicero myself, and my friend Seth can read it straightforwardly | 17:13 |
| fenn | it seems like the big problem is people using your archive material as shack liner material or firewood | 17:13 |
| xentrac | there are at least hundreds of people in my own city who can read it straightforwardly | 17:13 |
| xentrac | that's one big problem | 17:13 |
| fenn | similar discussions about the nuclear waste "problem" | 17:14 |
| xentrac | but before you get to that problem you have to deal with the DVDs that fade spontaneously in 5 years | 17:14 |
| @kanzure | maybe the archival material should give humans cancer | 17:14 |
| fenn | hey bingo just use nuclear waste as the archive material, it's a glass | 17:14 |
| xentrac | high-energy radiation is a way to make anything unstable, though | 17:14 |
| @kanzure | radiation poisoning is probably more obvious, cancer is 3-5 months and you're scratching your head | 17:14 |
| @kanzure | yeah but maybe it's just directed radiation | 17:15 |
| fenn | if the grain size is smaller than 100nm (random ass-guess) the molecules in the crystal spontaneously rearrange and negate any radiation damage | 17:15 |
| fenn | i forget how that works exactly but it is a real technology used in nuclear reactor cores | 17:16 |
| xentrac | you only get that benefit if your medium is crystalline | 17:16 |
| xentrac | and it just attenuates the damage | 17:16 |
| xentrac | at grain boundaries you can still get it recrystallizing differently | 17:17 |
| xentrac | but it attenuates the damage a *lot* | 17:17 |
| fenn | kanzure: if the archive material were a DNA virus that integrated into the genome... it would probably cause cancer in some small percentage of infected hosts | 17:17 |
| fenn | now I am thinking about that movie Prometheus | 17:18 |
| fenn | what if you just landed it on the moon | 17:18 |
| fenn | there are way too many free variables in this calculation | 17:19 |
| @kanzure | ParahSailin wants to make a freedom virus to infect north korea with | 17:19 |
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| xentrac | the other day some friends of mine finally got around to printing out http://canonical.org/~kragen/bible-columns.png | 17:21 |
| fenn | that link should have a warning about its size | 17:22 |
| xentrac | sorry. it's about ten megs | 17:22 |
| xentrac | more relevantly it's a lot of megapixels | 17:22 |
| fenn | it's mostly the megapixels | 17:22 |
| fenn | the project gutenberg copyright headers/footers are a little out of control | 17:24 |
| fenn | if any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written within this book | 17:26 |
| fenn | the biblical copyright license, not OSI approved | 17:26 |
| fenn | Infect a population with a harmless biological virus that makes them susceptible to suggestions. | 17:29 |
| fenn | Now you can control their minds by sending suggestions via a TV program, email, etc! | 17:29 |
| fenn | "ya gotta believe me" virus, also by vernor vinge | 17:30 |
| fenn | uff google fail | 17:31 |
| fenn | http://fennetic.net/irc/vernor_vinge_rainbows_end.pdf | 17:32 |
| xentrac | yes | 17:32 |
| xentrac | didn't vernor post a text version on his own web site? | 17:32 |
| fenn | tracker works better for finding text in books | 17:34 |
| fenn | so, uh, maybe? | 17:34 |
| fenn | http://vrinimi.org/ | 17:35 |
| xentrac | yeah, that's the one | 17:35 |
| xentrac | except I don't see the link to the full text | 17:35 |
| fenn | yeah i thought it was there, oh well | 17:35 |
| xentrac | strangely it's in the WABAC | 17:36 |
| xentrac | /rainbowsend.html | 17:36 |
| xentrac | http://web.archive.org/web/20071124035416/http://vrinimi.org/rainbowsend.html | 17:36 |
| fenn | probably his publisher complained | 17:36 |
| xentrac | it was there for quite a while I think | 17:38 |
| xentrac | at least until 2008-07-04 | 17:39 |
| xentrac | I guess that's just over a year | 17:39 |
| fenn | the median internet page lifetime | 17:39 |
| xentrac | sigh | 17:39 |
| xentrac | btw, Vinay's NaNoWriMo product is kind of Rainbows-End-ish | 17:39 |
| xentrac | mother of hydrogen | 17:40 |
| xentrac | http://files.howtolivewiki.com/MOTHER_OF_HYDROGEN_NOVEL/ | 17:40 |
| fenn | added to reading list | 17:43 |
| fenn | i wish NaNoWriMo were named something else | 17:43 |
| fenn | i keep seeing it, thinking "that sounds familiar, is it about nanotechnology?" and being disappointed | 17:44 |
| xentrac | heh | 17:44 |
| xentrac | this particular novel has a fair bit of nanotechnology in it | 17:44 |
| xentrac | in particular the political consequences of its limited prohibition | 17:44 |
| fenn | ah, doctorow's "the siege" was pretty intense | 17:45 |
| fenn | "after the siege" http://craphound.com/?p=1674 | 17:46 |
| fenn | sigh another redacted fulltext http://fennetic.net/irc/cory_doctorow_after_the_siege.pdf | 17:48 |
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| fenn | oh it was linked as "infinite matrix" | 17:50 |
| fenn | some of doctorow's work hits a little too close to home, like when you remember sitting at the desk being described in the story, working on the 3d printer described in the story | 17:51 |
| fenn | and then the main character gets hauled off into some CIA torture cell because he was a the wrong place and time | 17:52 |
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| fenn | wow mupdf is fast, where have you been all these years | 17:55 |
| fenn | great, now I can chuck out all that crap i was keeping around just to run evince | 17:58 |
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| fenn | Is this the beginning of digital Darwinism? To survive, information has to grab attention so as to be moved to the next media type. Information which can’t do this, effectively dies. | 18:17 |
| @kanzure | yawn | 18:19 |
| fenn | are you suffering a modafinil deficiency | 18:19 |
| @kanzure | "scarcity exists! things that get copied tend to have more copies of themselves in existence!" | 18:19 |
| fenn | people have been talking about "memes" for a while, but not literally in the context of data storage | 18:20 |
| fenn | anyway the "beginning" was in ancient sumeria | 18:21 |
| dingo | 01:17 < fenn> Is this the beginning of digital Darwinism? To survive, | 18:21 |
| dingo | i worked at portico.org specificly in digital preservation | 18:21 |
| dingo | its not easy when fuckers are using closed-source document formats, like MSWord | 18:22 |
| @kanzure | yes dingo has suffered enough cumulative xml-hours for an entire country | 18:22 |
| dingo | whose to say you can still use MS Word in 25 years? | 18:22 |
| dingo | much less computers that can do machine-dependent data types | 18:22 |
| fenn | dingo: ah then you must know all about emulators | 18:22 |
| fenn | dingo: how do i preserve my old macintosh documents? | 18:22 |
| dingo | start with an era macintosh and begin working your way up, losing formatting along the way | 18:23 |
| fenn | i can't seem to copy them correctly | 18:23 |
| fenn | i mean the files go invisible and weird shit like that | 18:23 |
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| dingo | dunno i only began macintosh with the release of osx, my first mac had osx 10.0.1 | 18:23 |
| fenn | bah that's just unix, it works properly, no challenge there | 18:24 |
| dingo | well /usr/bin was /Usr/bin that release, so it didn't work so well then, hehe | 18:24 |
| dingo | and tcsh shell without bash | 18:24 |
| fenn | well at least a file is a file | 18:24 |
| fenn | not an entry in two databases and a file and a resource fork | 18:25 |
| dingo | indeed; for older macs you have to deal with the classic concept of Resources, that might be where you're losing things, where a file isn't a file | 18:25 |
| dingo | new macs still have these, but the resources innards are files, again | 18:25 |
| dingo | ahh well all chat makes for no code :-) ttyl fenn | 18:26 |
| fenn | cheers | 18:26 |
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| @kanzure | http://zentasrobots.com/2014/04/17/outdoor-footage-of-morphex-and-a-servo-failure/ | 19:43 |
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| juri_ | Muhahaha! | 21:16 |
| juri_ | fenn: you're alive! | 21:16 |
| * juri_ just created a new channel, for kanzure to forward people to: ##hminusroadmap | 21:17 | |
| @kanzure | that doesn't even need a roadmap, just blow up the planet | 21:19 |
| juri_ | i can just parody the dumb advice i see here. | 21:20 |
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| juri_ | "take lots of drugs! never sleep! homeopathy is the winrar!" | 21:21 |
| @kanzure | that's your impression of this channel? | 21:21 |
| juri_ | "i will become immortal through repeated application of bacon!" | 21:21 |
| juri_ | no, that's my impression of the people you kick off of this channel. ;) | 21:21 |
| ebowden | LOL. You guys get homeopaths? | 21:22 |
| @kanzure | not many | 21:22 |
| cpopell | nah | 21:22 |
| cpopell | the people he kicks off are usually | 21:22 |
| cpopell | RESURRECT MY MOTHER | 21:22 |
| ebowden | I should hope so. | 21:22 |
| cpopell | YOU TERRIFYING MONSTER AI WILL KILL US ALL | 21:22 |
| cpopell | AND UPLOADING IS THE DEVIL | 21:22 |
| @kanzure | or my favorite, "kanzure is an evil ai that is going to turn the world into computronium" | 21:22 |
| cpopell | <sends Kanzure 600 pages of spam a day for 3 years straight> | 21:22 |
| juri_ | what about "i heard on reddit you can resurect my mother by uploading the memories i have of her. can you do that for $100, and a windows 95 CD?" | 21:23 |
| ebowden | ... | 21:24 |
| ebowden | What? | 21:24 |
| juri_ | ebowden: sorry, i'm parodying the horrible people that get kicked from here. that's bound to be confusing. | 21:25 |
| ebowden | Oh, I know you are parodying. | 21:25 |
| ebowden | It's just confusing. | 21:25 |
| ebowden | Lack of context. | 21:25 |
| @kanzure | confusion is the primary function of irc | 21:26 |
| ebowden | So, I'd imagine everyone here would have heard of ISRIB and curcumin loaded nanoparticles by now? | 21:26 |
| cpopell | don't assume people have heard of a specific thing | 21:27 |
| cpopell | generally the safest | 21:27 |
| cpopell | although I'm sure Lemminkainen has | 21:27 |
| juri_ | everyone here has their own specialty, and its not necissarily anything that overlaps. i'm a crazy 3d printer person. | 21:27 |
| @kanzure | you're a crazy xml person | 21:29 |
| juri_ | xslt! | 21:29 |
| juri_ | (looking at xslt right now.) | 21:29 |
| ebowden | Oh, who here does neuroscience, and are there any molecular biologists? | 21:30 |
| @kanzure | yes | 21:31 |
| ebowden | Neat. | 21:31 |
| ebowden | Are you the molecular biologist? | 21:32 |
| @kanzure | i like to pretend to be | 21:33 |
| ebowden | I seem to remember Juri_ mentioning that the OP of this channel was in some scientific field. | 21:33 |
| ebowden | Ah, ok. | 21:33 |
| ebowden | Well, I only recently turned 18, so, you are very likely pretending a lot less than I. | 21:33 |
| ebowden | You heard of the whole myeloperoxidase breaking down CNTs thing? | 21:34 |
| @kanzure | i don't know what field i fall into | 21:34 |
| ebowden | Oh? | 21:34 |
| @kanzure | i don't see how your age is relevant | 21:35 |
| ebowden | Well, whatever field it is, you can thank your lucky stars it aint bioethics. | 21:35 |
| -!- mode/##hplusroadmap [-o kanzure] by kanzure | 21:36 | |
| ebowden | Well, my level of knowledge is relavent. | 21:36 |
| ebowden | And someone not yet out of high school is unlikely to have the same level of knowledge as an academic in his own field. | 21:37 |
| kanzure | very few people in here qualify as an academic | 21:37 |
| kanzure | one dude is in school, but that's his own fault | 21:37 |
| ebowden | Well, I didn't say I thought there would be many. | 21:38 |
| ebowden | That aside, what did you mean when you said you weren't sure what field you fell into? | 21:38 |
| kanzure | well what's a field? | 21:39 |
| kanzure | anyway, have some things: | 21:39 |
| kanzure | http://diyhpl.us/cgit | 21:39 |
| kanzure | http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/neuro/ | 21:39 |
| kanzure | http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/bio/ | 21:39 |
| cpopell | I qualified as an academic for a couple years and loathed it. | 21:40 |
| cpopell | jmiller is an academic | 21:40 |
| ebowden | Ah, ok. | 21:40 |
| ebowden | So, what do you do cpopell? | 21:40 |
| cpopell | cry about not having done CS and work on shitty freelance projects til I find a job | 21:41 |
| cpopell | uh | 21:41 |
| cpopell | ...I'm a freelance market analyst, formerly startup focusing on emerging techs, formerly nanoprinting masters student. | 21:41 |
| ebowden | Ah. | 21:41 |
| cpopell | I basically spent 7 years in school figuring out a few things-that all of my degrees were in fields I didn't like, that I should have started programming -way- sooner, and that I really like business strategy. | 21:42 |
| ebowden | Ok. | 21:42 |
| cpopell | Right now I'm trying to find a job in BI | 21:42 |
| ebowden | BI? | 21:42 |
| cpopell | business intelligence | 21:42 |
| ebowden | And what's Jmiller's field? | 21:42 |
| ebowden | Oh, ok. | 21:42 |
| cpopell | he does advanced manufacturing | 21:43 |
| ebowden | Oh? | 21:43 |
| kanzure | no | 21:43 |
| kanzure | tissue cultures | 21:43 |
| ebowden | Ok. | 21:43 |
| cpopell | http://amrinstitute.org/build_the_future..html he's the head of this group | 21:43 |
| cpopell | is chevbird out of academia yet? Hmmm | 21:44 |
| ebowden | What's chevbird do? | 21:45 |
| cpopell | he worked on next generation sequencing | 21:45 |
| cpopell | we have a lot of people who do research out of academia though | 21:46 |
| ebowden | Like normal sequencing, but next generation. | 21:46 |
| ebowden | Huh. | 21:46 |
| ebowden | Ok. | 21:46 |
| ebowden | So, what was different about the sequencing he was working on? | 21:46 |
| Lemminkainen | ebowden: | 21:46 |
| Lemminkainen | nanoparticles across blood-brain-barrier is not easy | 21:47 |
| ebowden | Yes? | 21:47 |
| ebowden | Ah. | 21:47 |
| ebowden | Lemminkainen, you do nanoparticles? | 21:47 |
| Lemminkainen | astrocyte endfeet form very tight junctions | 21:47 |
| Lemminkainen | aye, of a sort | 21:47 |
| ebowden | Oh? | 21:48 |
| ebowden | Lipid nanoparticles? | 21:48 |
| ebowden | Some other BBB crossing material? | 21:48 |
| Lemminkainen | lipid nanoparticles have a lot of problems | 21:50 |
| ebowden | Oh? | 21:50 |
| Lemminkainen | to be frank, I don't yet know how to cross the BBB with NP | 21:50 |
| Lemminkainen | it's a still-open question and we have a few theories, but it'll be a few months before we have data | 21:50 |
| ebowden | I thought it'd been done. | 21:51 |
| ebowden | Huh. | 21:51 |
| ebowden | I was mistaken. | 21:51 |
| Lemminkainen | there've been some academic papers showing 0.5-1.5% delivery efficacy | 21:51 |
| ebowden | Interesting to see you can still do a lot with just that. | 21:52 |
| Lemminkainen | clinically meaningless, though | 21:52 |
| ebowden | Well, I'm even more wrong. | 21:53 |
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| ebowden | So, size and lipophilicity are not the only factors? | 21:54 |
| ebowden | What other ones have been identified? | 21:54 |
| Lemminkainen | surface chemistry matters a LOT | 21:55 |
| Lemminkainen | and liposomal formulations are going to accumulate in the liver pretty much no matter what | 21:55 |
| ebowden | Ah. | 21:56 |
| ebowden | So, what about the surface chemistry? | 21:56 |
| Lemminkainen | that's a broad question | 21:56 |
| ebowden | I know. | 21:57 |
| ebowden | Just asking for some examples, things that could be worked on. | 21:57 |
| Lemminkainen | well there've been some attempts to put MAb in them | 21:57 |
| Lemminkainen | there've been a couple long charged polymer variations | 21:57 |
| ebowden | MAb? | 21:57 |
| Lemminkainen | BIND Therapeutics is doing interesting things | 21:57 |
| Lemminkainen | MAb = monoclonal antibodies | 21:57 |
| ebowden | Sorry, not too familiar with the nomenclature. | 21:58 |
| ebowden | Google to the rescue. | 21:58 |
| kanzure | acronyms are dumb anyway | 21:59 |
| ebowden | Well, it saves a little keyboard time. | 21:59 |
| kanzure | does it? http://www.seanwrona.com/typeracer/profile.php?username=kanzure | 22:00 |
| Lemminkainen | your name doesn't stand for Kicking Antlers Non-Zodiac Utopian Recursion Efflux, kanzure ? | 22:00 |
| kanzure | well that's a unique one | 22:01 |
| cpopell | Not surprised antlers showed up tho | 22:02 |
| ebowden | So, do you know exactly what BIND are doing lemminkainen? | 22:02 |
| Lemminkainen | MAb-targeted docetaxil delivery | 22:02 |
| Lemminkainen | lung and prostate tumors | 22:03 |
| ebowden | Well, I din't mean "do you know", obviously you do. I meant to ask if you could tell me. Sorry if that sounded rude. | 22:04 |
| ebowden | Which you did. | 22:04 |
| Lemminkainen | don't worry about tone | 22:04 |
| Lemminkainen | you're curious and that's neat | 22:04 |
| ebowden | Good to see that kind of attitude. | 22:05 |
| ebowden | (As in, welcoming curiosity.) | 22:05 |
| ebowden | Well, this is one of the better places to go interneting. Lemminkainen, who here would be able to assist me in answering the question about the formation of random neural networks? | 22:11 |
| ebowden | Well, this is one of the better places to go interneting. Lemminkainen, who here would be able to assist me in answering a question about the formation of random neural networks? | 22:11 |
| fenn | "What are you doing?", asked Minsky. | 22:12 |
| fenn | "I am training a randomly wired neural net to play Tic-tac-toe", Sussman replied. | 22:12 |
| fenn | "Why is the net wired randomly?", asked Minsky. | 22:12 |
| fenn | "I do not want it to have any preconceptions of how to play", Sussman said. | 22:12 |
| fenn | Minsky then shut his eyes. | 22:12 |
| fenn | "Why do you close your eyes?" Sussman asked his teacher. | 22:12 |
| fenn | "So that the room will be empty." | 22:12 |
| fenn | At that moment, Sussman was enlightened. | 22:12 |
| ebowden | What's that from? | 22:12 |
| fenn | the Jargon File | 22:13 |
| ebowden | Ok. | 22:13 |
| ebowden | Fenn, you do neuroscience? | 22:13 |
| fenn | i keep reading your name as ed boyed, or erik's bowden extruder | 22:14 |
| fenn | derp. s/ed boyed/ed boyden/ | 22:15 |
| ebowden | My name is Eliot Pascal Bowden-Ferguson. | 22:15 |
| cpopell | are your parents mathemeticians? | 22:15 |
| fenn | apparently a bowden extruder is named for http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bowden_cable whose invention is "popularly attributed to Sir Frank Bowden, founder and owner of the Raleigh Bicycle Company" | 22:16 |
| ebowden | No, my father is a 72 year old impressionist artist, who's father, Phillip Bowden, was a scientist, and my mother is the EO of TABIS. | 22:17 |
| cpopell | the whole pascal thing, I was curious. | 22:17 |
| fenn | i had a similar reaction upon meeting tatiana gelfand | 22:17 |
| fenn | and ruza markov | 22:17 |
| fenn | that was an interesting desert trek | 22:18 |
| fenn | ebowden: all of my neuroscience has been learned by necessity, not choice | 22:19 |
| ebowden | Oh? | 22:19 |
| fenn | i guess i have an interest in psychophysics | 22:19 |
| ebowden | Psycophysics? | 22:20 |
| kanzure | yeah, i don't think you should bother with randomly wired neural nets | 22:20 |
| kanzure | go play around with yale.edu's NEURON | 22:20 |
| kanzure | http://www.neuron.yale.edu/neuron/ | 22:20 |
| kanzure | "for empirically-based simulations of neurons and networks of neurons" | 22:20 |
| kanzure | "NEURON is a simulation environment for modeling individual neurons and networks of neurons. It provides tools for conveniently building, managing, and using models in a way that is numerically sound and computationally efficient. It is particularly well-suited to problems that are closely linked to experimental data, especially those that involve cells with complex anatomical and biophysical properties." | 22:21 |
| ebowden | Neat. | 22:21 |
| kanzure | "The default integration method is implicit Euler, which provides robust stability and first order accuracy in time (sufficient for most applications)." | 22:22 |
| kanzure | "There is also a Crank-Nicholson method that provides second order accuracy at little additional computational cost. However, this is prone to numerical oscillations if dt is too long, voltage clamps are present, or system states are described by algebraic equations." | 22:22 |
| ebowden | Kanzure, I mainly want to find out if anyone has ever used particularly strong excititory tCMS to cause the formation of random networks. | 22:23 |
| kanzure | "User-defined mechanisms such as voltage- and ligand-gated ion channels, diffusion, buffering, active transport, etc., can be added by writing model descriptions in NMODL, a high-level programming language that has a simple syntax for expressing kinetic schemes and sets of simultaneous algebraic and/or differential equations. NMODL can also be used to write model descriptions for new classes of artificial spiking cells. These model ... | 22:23 |
| kanzure | ... descriptions are compiled so that membrane voltage and states can be computed efficiently using integration methods that have been optimized for branched structures. A large number of mechanisms written in NMODL have been made available on the WWW by the authors of published models; many of these have been entered into ModelDB which makes it easy for users to find and retrieve model source code according to search criteria such as author, ... | 22:23 |
| kanzure | ... type of model (e.g. cell or network), ionic currents, etc.." | 22:23 |
| fenn | psychophysics roughly is quantification of subjective perception, performance testing of the senses, basically attempting to determine the transfer function of the human signal transduction path | 22:23 |
| ebowden | And if these networks are actually random. | 22:24 |
| ebowden | Oh, ok fenn. | 22:24 |
| fenn | i'm willing to bet you don't know what a transfer function is | 22:25 |
| * cpopell should review his control systems theory. | 22:25 | |
| ebowden | And you bet correctly. | 22:25 |
| fenn | arr my chrome url bar is so dyslexic, it hurts | 22:25 |
| ebowden | cpopell, what's your control systems theory? | 22:26 |
| cpopell | the subject of control systems theory? | 22:26 |
| fenn | note to self: wait until next LTS release is ready before "upgrading" | 22:26 |
| cpopell | http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Control_theory | 22:26 |
| kanzure | if servo is passing acid tests, does that mean it is generally usable for basic web surfing? | 22:27 |
| fenn | a browser can be horribly slow and crash constantly and still pass ACID | 22:27 |
| fenn | heh check out "surf" | 22:27 |
| kanzure | i think i'm okay with those things, since it's embeddable and that provides a bunch of other options | 22:28 |
| ebowden | So, kanzure, are networks formed by overly strong excititory tCMS actually random? | 22:28 |
| fenn | i really doubt it | 22:28 |
| fenn | the brain is strongly hierarchical due to cell growth patterns that have nothing to do with learning | 22:29 |
| fenn | you will never get a hopfield network either since the cells take up physical space and have a certain maximum length | 22:30 |
| ebowden | I would be interested to see, say, if we could induce an increase in functional connectivity between two regions by that method. | 22:30 |
| ebowden | Oh, ok fern. | 22:30 |
| fenn | it's "fenn" | 22:30 |
| ebowden | (The overly strong tCMS.) | 22:30 |
| ebowden | Oh, oops. | 22:30 |
| ebowden | Sorry. | 22:30 |
| ebowden | So, has anyone ever tried to see if they could do that? | 22:31 |
| fenn | ebowden: do you know what a cortical column is? (a cortical minicolumn) | 22:32 |
| kanzure | you can make neurons grow in certain directions by marking surfaces with uh, sugar or something | 22:32 |
| ebowden | Please enlighten me. | 22:32 |
| kanzure | maybe not sugar. some protein. | 22:32 |
| ebowden | Oh, thanks kanzure. | 22:32 |
| fenn | well, you see.. "they are made out of meat" | 22:33 |
| ebowden | ... | 22:33 |
| ebowden | Could you be a little more detailed? | 22:33 |
| fenn | as an embryo grows its neural tube inflates like a balloon. the surface of the balloon self-patterns with many little hexagons about 0.1mm thick, these are the columns. as the balloon stretches it buckles and develops the wrinkles that people think of as the surface of the brain | 22:34 |
| ebowden | Ok. | 22:34 |
| fenn | 99% of the connections are between cells in the column and the neighborhing columns | 22:35 |
| ebowden | Right. | 22:35 |
| fenn | and there are a few long-range connections that are what differentiate autistic people from neurotypicals, or something | 22:35 |
| ebowden | Oh? | 22:36 |
| fenn | i am really the wrong person to learn about neuroanatomy from | 22:36 |
| fenn | the point is that the brain is not randomly wired, not nowhere nohow | 22:36 |
| ebowden | Oh, I know that. | 22:37 |
| fenn | brain cancer maybe | 22:37 |
| ebowden | Just asking if you could really call networks formed by 'too strong' excitatory tCMS truly random. | 22:38 |
| ebowden | And you guys answered that quite well, thankyou. | 22:38 |
| fenn | why are you interested in randomly wired neural nets? (btw "neural net" generally refers to the AI technique of weighted multilayer analog classifiers) | 22:38 |
| ebowden | Well, I have heard some reports of seizure induced synaesthesia. | 22:39 |
| fenn | heh | 22:40 |
| fenn | what caused the seizure | 22:40 |
| fenn | the synaestheizure! | 22:40 |
| kanzure | if you can hit the head just right.. | 22:40 |
| ebowden | LOL | 22:40 |
| kanzure | the one-quarter inch synesthesia-inducing punch | 22:41 |
| fenn | you are already dead | 22:41 |
| kanzure | my entire life, man | 22:41 |
| ebowden | Mainly interested in seeing if it could be used to functionally increase the connectivity in or between certain areas. | 22:42 |
| fenn | I tear apart my psyche, but still the conclusion grows clearer, the resolution sharper. | 22:42 |
| fenn | Myself, constructing the simulator. Designing those defense structures gave me the perspective | 22:42 |
| kanzure | increased connectivity might not bestow any cognitive side-effects | 22:42 |
| kanzure | but also, targetting two particular neurons separated by multiple inches in dense brain tissue is highly problematic | 22:43 |
| fenn | No time. All I can do is metaprogram myself over randomly, at a furious pace. An act of desperation, possibly crippling. Milliseconds pass. My death passes before my eyes. I absorbed the fatal insights before I had any defenses raised. | 22:43 |
| ebowden | Oh, two adjacent areas kanzure. | 22:44 |
| fenn | "Understand." At first I don't. And then, horrifyingly, I do. | 22:45 |
| fenn | It's a memory | 22:46 |
| fenn | trigger: the command is made out of a string of perceptions, individually harmless, that he | 22:46 |
| fenn | planted in my brain like time bombs. The mental structures that were formed as a result of those | 22:46 |
| fenn | memories are now resolving into a pattern, forming a gestalt that defines my dissolution. | 22:46 |
| kanzure | "If I could find courage, I wondered, what would I see? Would I be ashamed of the arrangement of my programs - of my very self - beyond my control? Ah, but what if I could write new metaprograms, controlling this arrangement of programs" | 22:46 |
| kanzure | using shame as a narrative device is sort of annoying though | 22:46 |
| fenn | well he's a good jewish boy | 22:47 |
| kanzure | sandor at the zoo only sent like two emails in the whole novel, how can wei dei claim to be inspired by that. | 22:48 |
| kanzure | and why would 20 civilizations be sitting around constructing emails? | 22:48 |
| fenn | it's "wei dai" | 22:48 |
| kanzure | i mean, as a single entity | 22:48 |
| kanzure | oops yes | 22:48 |
| kanzure | for some reason i knew about him 2008 | 22:48 |
| kanzure | i'm not sure why you know about him? | 22:49 |
| fenn | 2008 wasn't that long ago | 22:49 |
| kanzure | *him in | 22:49 |
| fenn | er, from my perspective at least | 22:49 |
| fenn | having being dead and all | 22:49 |
| kanzure | well you're perpetually in a weird time warp | 22:49 |
| kanzure | so you don't count | 22:49 |
| fenn | i mean what happened between 2008 and now | 22:49 |
| kanzure | you ran into him before? | 22:50 |
| fenn | i don't know | 22:50 |
| kanzure | well they're all the same people anyway, i guess | 22:50 |
| fenn | chinese names are impossible to keep track of | 22:50 |
| fenn | and then academic journals have the gall to abbreviate their names to an initial | 22:51 |
| fenn | "by w. dai et al." | 22:51 |
| ebowden | Kanzure, basically, what I'm wondering is this, can we reliably induce synaesthesia in mice with localised tCMS? | 22:51 |
| ebowden | Kanzure, basically, what I'm wondering is this, could we reliably induce synaesthesia in mice with localised tCMS? | 22:51 |
| fenn | oh great that could be one of FIFTY MILLION PEOPLE | 22:51 |
| kanzure | fenn: well, this one: http://www.weidai.com/ | 22:52 |
| fenn | ebowden: how do you know the mouse is experiencing synaesthesia? | 22:52 |
| kanzure | ebowden: what's the test for mouse synaesthesia anyway | 22:52 |
| kanzure | oh that's right i forgot that fenn is on my same wavelength, ugh | 22:53 |
| kanzure | aren't there like ham radio protocols for this shit or something | 22:53 |
| fenn | well if the mouse starts rearranging its habitat into hexagonal geometry that's a clue | 22:53 |
| kanzure | "subject appears to be hexagonally cooperative today" | 22:53 |
| fenn | kanzure: it's borg whispernet subspace communications | 22:53 |
| ebowden | Well, that's probably not the ideal thing to try and test for, unless you expect them to respond differently to stimuli. | 22:53 |
| ebowden | But there must be certain testable wires we could cross. | 22:54 |
| kanzure | you can feed images directly into visual cortex brain matter if you want | 22:54 |
| fenn | those voices in the darkness, is it me? is it you? | 22:54 |
| kanzure | and you could convert audio signals on your end before you feed it into v1-v6 | 22:54 |
| kanzure | the advantage of this is that visual cortex tissue is somewhat easy to access, iirc | 22:55 |
| ebowden | Kanzure, what would be the most testable wires we could cross, do you think? | 22:55 |
| kanzure | uh depends on what you mean by cross | 22:55 |
| fenn | this is all pointless, the cortical algorithm is generic. it's how stroke survivors learn to walk, [rant rematurely terminated] | 22:56 |
| kanzure | not entirely pointless, i hadn't considered the possibility of using molecular markers to retarget synapses | 22:56 |
| ebowden | I'm not sure how easy that would be on the macroscale. | 22:57 |
| kanzure | but how would you get a distant axon to grow in a certain direction | 22:57 |
| fenn | take an unmodified mouse, feed audio into V1, it will learn to "hear" again | 22:57 |
| kanzure | on a petri dish this is trivial | 22:57 |
| kanzure | for values of trivial that molecular biology and neurophysiology people enjoy | 22:57 |
| fenn | still unclear (to me) if this is how the flanagan neurophone worked | 22:57 |
| ebowden | Kanzure, are there adjacent regions in the brain that are not normally well connected, but when connected, would give obvious results? | 22:59 |
| fenn | a seizure is pretty obvious | 22:59 |
| kanzure | http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/neuro/Electrical%20stimulation%20of%20the%20human%20brain:%20perceptual%20and%20behavioral%20phenomena%20reported%20in%20the%20old%20and%20new%20literature.pdf | 22:59 |
| fenn | "le grand mal" means the whole brain is involved | 23:00 |
| kanzure | "obvious results" are hard to figure out | 23:00 |
| ebowden | Oh? | 23:01 |
| ebowden | Well, easy to test for. | 23:01 |
| fenn | but it's a reliable indicator that something is happening | 23:01 |
| fenn | mice don't normally have seizures | 23:01 |
| kanzure | anselm spent a lot of time just on his light-induced "make the mouse run around in a circle" neuron | 23:01 |
| kanzure | http://diyhpl.us/wiki/transcripts/hplus-summit-2009/anselm-levksaya/ | 23:02 |
| ebowden | Ok. | 23:02 |
| kanzure | anyway the question of "obvious results" also applies to transcranial stimulation | 23:04 |
| kanzure | the idea is that some amount of stimulation to some region of the brain could hypothetically improve some psychometric or psycho-measurable performance | 23:04 |
| ebowden | Ok. | 23:04 |
| kanzure | then the problem becomes a question of which region to stimulate or what has a greater chance of producing any effect | 23:04 |
| kanzure | most of the stuff mentioned in that pdf is boring effects of electrical stimulation, like "tightness in chest" | 23:05 |
| ebowden | Ah. | 23:05 |
| kanzure | someone did motor cortex stimulation of a mouse to get whisker and forearm twitches | 23:06 |
| kanzure | weren't the nazis or soviets supposed to do this shit for me? sigh | 23:06 |
| ebowden | LOL | 23:07 |
| ebowden | Out of curiosity, what did Nazi research contribute? | 23:07 |
| JayDugger | Generally or in the context of cortex stimulation? | 23:08 |
| ebowden | Well, can you think of any notable contributions to science that came from nazi research. | 23:08 |
| fenn | pretty sure there were a number of "how far can we push a human along this axis until they die" type stuff | 23:09 |
| ebowden | Yeah, there was a lot of that. | 23:09 |
| JayDugger | Feel free to look up the history of aerospace, say 1946-1969. | 23:10 |
| fenn | oh the germans came up with all kinds of things. the first computer was built by a german | 23:11 |
| fenn | under the nazi regime. however it's unclear if that counts as "nazi research" since the bureaucrats didnt see the point until halfway through the war | 23:12 |
| ebowden | Oh? | 23:12 |
| JayDugger | Konrad Zuse, right? | 23:13 |
| fenn | there's an often cited "oh the nazis did all kinds of valuable foundational research on human physiology that we could never get away with today" but i don't know off the top of my head what exactly they discovered/measured | 23:14 |
| fenn | JayDugger: yeah, the Z1 was much more elegant than ENIAC or whatever | 23:14 |
| JayDugger | Survival rates for hypothermia, low atmospheric pressure, I think. | 23:14 |
| fenn | i mean BCD? what the fuck is that | 23:14 |
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| ebowden | So, has anyone actually achieved good bbb penetration with NPs? | 23:18 |
| kanzure | stop with the acronyms | 23:18 |
| ebowden | On sorry. | 23:19 |
| ebowden | Oh, sorry. | 23:19 |
| kanzure | it's almost as bad as cpopell saying BI everywhere | 23:19 |
| jrayhawk | man i am totally calling you fern from now on | 23:19 |
| fenn | my non-polynomial algorithms have successfully penetrated the better business bureau, now i can defraud consumers to my heart's content! | 23:20 |
| ebowden | So, has anyone actually achieved good blood-brain-barrier penetration with nano particles? | 23:20 |
| ebowden | Fenn, what? | 23:20 |
| fenn | okay jayrayhawk | 23:21 |
| jrayhawk | oh god, the tables have turned! | 23:21 |
| fenn | to everything there is a season | 23:22 |
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| ebowden | Kanzure, how long has research on using nanoparticles to get drugs to cross the blood-brain barrier been going on without clinically significant results? | 23:24 |
| cpopell | ebowden: if you want, i can hook you up with some people who did academic research on this | 23:24 |
| kanzure | there's actually a site for clinical trial results | 23:24 |
| cpopell | since I think Lemminkainen went back to work | 23:24 |
| fenn | ebowden: could you insufflate instead of going through the blood? | 23:25 |
| ebowden | Oh? | 23:25 |
| ebowden | Insufflate? | 23:25 |
| fenn | the olfactory bulb shares some ducts with the brain proper | 23:25 |
| ebowden | Ok. | 23:25 |
| fenn | hum. "Nasal insufflation (snorting) is commonly used for many psychoactive drugs because it causes a much faster onset than orally, and bioavailability is usually, but not always, higher than orally. This bioavailability occurs due to the quick absorption of molecules into the bloodstream through the soft tissue in the mucous membrane of the sinus cavity and portal circulation bypass." | 23:26 |
| fenn | what is "systemic circulation" | 23:27 |
| fenn | is that just the bloodstream? | 23:27 |
| ebowden | Well, I'm not exactly an expert on neuroanatomy. | 23:28 |
| ebowden | By not exactly, I mean in no way. | 23:28 |
| fenn | okay, so vasopressin is a huge peptide, and people snort it for nefarious purposes. how does it get into the brain? | 23:29 |
| ebowden | It certainly gets in. | 23:29 |
| fenn | well, maybe not. it seems to interact with the hypothalamus, which is outsie the blood brain barrier | 23:30 |
| ebowden | Oh. | 23:31 |
| ebowden | Well damn. | 23:31 |
| kanzure | i wonder what the microbe content of a sinus cavity is | 23:31 |
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| fenn | the other thing to consider is that there isn't such a thing as a perfect blood brain barrier, sometimes it develops cracks, and is more porous in some people than others | 23:32 |
| fenn | kanzure: over 9000 | 23:32 |
| ebowden | LOL | 23:32 |
| fenn | it hurts | 23:32 |
| ebowden | Yeah, there are diseases that break it down. | 23:32 |
| kanzure | you have an unhealthy appreciation of age | 23:33 |
| sheena | we see this in dogs for ivermectin use. MDR1 gene | 23:33 |
| kanzure | "22,23-dihydroavermectin B1a" | 23:34 |
| fenn | trade name Scabo 6, for scabies! (yum) | 23:34 |
| kanzure | "Field studies have demonstrated the dung of animals treated with ivermectin supports a significantly reduced diversity of invertebrates, and the dung persists longer." | 23:35 |
| kanzure | brought to you by dungfacts | 23:35 |
| ebowden | Oh, are there substances, which, when in the bloodstream, will temporarily increase the permeability of the blood-brain barrier? | 23:35 |
| kanzure | what is your goal | 23:35 |
| kanzure | and don't say random wiring again | 23:36 |
| ebowden | Oh, this is a different goal. | 23:36 |
| fenn | "Since drugs that inhibit CYP3A4 enzymes often also inhibit P-glycoprotein transport, the risk of increased absorption past the blood-brain barrier exists when ivermectin is administered along with other CYP3A4 inhibitors." (reads slowly) | 23:36 |
| ebowden | I remember, trimethyl chitosan, increased the absorption of drugs through the gastrointestinal tract. | 23:38 |
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| fenn | P-glycoprotein 1 (permeability glycoprotein) also known as multidrug resistance protein 1 (MDR1) is an ATP-dependent efflux pump with broad substrate specificity. in the capillary endothelial cells comprising the blood–brain barrier and blood-testis barrier, where it pumps [toxins, drugs] back into the capillaries. | 23:38 |
| ebowden | When used to nano-encapsulate the same drugs, it increased absorbtion a lot more, and with fewer side effects. | 23:38 |
| fenn | so basically the stuff about CYP3A4 was irrelevant, ivermectin inhibits MDR1 | 23:39 |
| ebowden | Perhaps we could use things that increase the permeability of the blood-brain-barrier in nanoparticles. | 23:40 |
| Lemminkainen | Lemminkainen didn't go back to work, cpopell | 23:41 |
| Lemminkainen | it's Friday night and therefore time for hedonism | 23:41 |
| cpopell | kk. saw your fb message. | 23:41 |
| cpopell | I'm back to working on my S.I. unit extraction script | 23:41 |
| ebowden | Kanzure, you get my goal? | 23:41 |
| fenn | interesting, some of these MDR1 inhibitors are used in nutraceuticals: Piperine, Quercetin, | 23:41 |
| cpopell | plus some JoJo's Bizarre Adventure... | 23:42 |
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| ebowden | Ah, Piperine. | 23:42 |
| fenn | cpopell: perhaps this may be of some use to you https://github.com/kanzure/skdb/blob/master/core/units.py | 23:43 |
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| fenn | oh my god i dont remember using sympy at all | 23:44 |
| cpopell | this is so much more advanced than what I have | 23:44 |
| kanzure | probably my fault | 23:44 |
| kanzure | sorry | 23:44 |
| cpopell | probably because this is sort of babby's first project | 23:44 |
| fenn | anyway GNU units does a pretty good job of parsing units | 23:44 |
| kanzure | there's no way you would have let me mess around with unit stuff though, so maybe it's not my fault | 23:44 |
| cpopell | https://github.com/cpopell/jeweler/blob/master/prefix.py | 23:45 |
| fenn | yeah there's no reason to do that when you have the "units" command already | 23:46 |
| fenn | also 2/13cm^3 is pretty ambiguous | 23:46 |
| cpopell | fenn: that's the point | 23:46 |
| fenn | is it supposed to throw an AmbiguousUnitError? | 23:46 |
| cpopell | no, I'm trying to figure out how to deal with bad science journalism | 23:47 |
| cpopell | and inconsistent units | 23:47 |
| kanzure | if i was going to bother i would probably do it with some shitty string grammar | 23:47 |
| kanzure | i mean, if i was going to avoid using units | 23:47 |
| kanzure | GNU units | 23:47 |
| fenn | i could never get parser generator grammar stuff to work, it always fails in mysterious ways | 23:47 |
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| fenn | to ultra meta metatron's cube, optimus prime! | 23:48 |
| kanzure | that's probably just the same weirdness as crond scheduling | 23:48 |
| kanzure | "what's the point of a scheduler that never works?" | 23:48 |
| cpopell | fenn: my unfortunately overly-optimistic goal is building a foraging system that hits 60% of stuff | 23:49 |
| kanzure | "are we paying for this?" | 23:49 |
| fenn | fwiw "units" says Definition: 153846.15 / m^3 | 23:49 |
| kanzure | foraging for what | 23:49 |
| kanzure | you can most likely safely avoid all science news, so please please don't say science news | 23:49 |
| fenn | whereas units 2/13*cm^3 Definition: 1.5384615e-07 m^3 | 23:50 |
| cpopell | not foraging for science news, but I'd like to forage from science news for general trend tracking | 23:50 |
| ebowden | How much of science news is bollocks? | 23:50 |
| kanzure | :( | 23:50 |
| cpopell | a lot of it | 23:50 |
| kanzure | approximately all of it | 23:50 |
| ebowden | LOL | 23:50 |
| fenn | 90% of science news is crap, but then 90% of everything is crap | 23:50 |
| cpopell | my general assumption is that if you see something in science news you're 5 years from commercialization, if that. | 23:51 |
| kanzure | science news is especially crap | 23:51 |
| ebowden | You know, Lumosity hires people to go to comments sections and spread neurobollocks. | 23:51 |
| kanzure | suppose you're designing a way to inform researchers about shit that's going on | 23:51 |
| kanzure | science news the way it is would not be what you design | 23:51 |
| fenn | since 90% of science is crap, and 90% of science news gets the science wrong, multiply and we get 99% overall crap factor | 23:51 |
| kanzure | cpopell: fuck that shit, you should go straight to the source ("office of technology commercialization") at each university | 23:52 |
| cpopell | there's a lot of shit that doesn't make it to OTCs, and there's a lot of universities that don't update their OTCs | 23:52 |
| kanzure | evidence? | 23:53 |
| kanzure | isn't that illegal | 23:53 |
| ebowden | Isn't what illegal? | 23:53 |
| kanzure | mumble mumble something bayh-dole | 23:53 |
| fenn | hm units moved the .dat files to /usr/share/units/ | 23:53 |
| kanzure | "must be because i'm not subscribed to the gnu units mailing list" | 23:54 |
| kanzure | "i set it in digest mode" </nerd> | 23:54 |
| ebowden | Kanzure, have you seen those Lumosity ads on YouTube? | 23:54 |
| kanzure | no, but i'm aware of lumosity | 23:54 |
| fenn | so have there been any more papers on dual n-back? | 23:54 |
| fenn | or really anything claiming to improve "fluid intelligence" (whatever that is) | 23:55 |
| cpopell | kanzure: I do plan on going better places, but right now just writing a text scraper, tagger, and unit interpreter is a big enough challenge to push my skill levels up several ticks. | 23:55 |
| ebowden | Are most of the claims to improvements in working memory from practice with Dual-n-back neurobollocks? | 23:56 |
| cpopell | http://www.gwern.net/DNB%20FAQ | 23:56 |
| fenn | it really gets me when people write "foot-pound" and i'm like "no, that's a minus sign! and it's poundals!!!" but they never listen | 23:57 |
| ebowden | Thanks cpopell. | 23:58 |
| --- Log closed Sat Apr 19 00:00:07 2014 | ||
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