2014-04-19.log

--- Log opened Sat Apr 19 00:00:07 2014
--- Day changed Sat Apr 19 2014
fennmaybe some day units will know how to multiply instead of subtract when the operands are incompatible00:00
fennbut we live in a harsh and troubled world00:00
kanzureyou're telling me there's an entire third dimension?00:00
fennaccording to string theory there are up to eleven dimensions00:01
fenneleventy one and pi/e dimensions to be precise00:01
kanzurefool, everyone knows there are only five. prepare the death ray.00:01
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fennthe hexagon of truth protects me!00:02
kanzureCHAOTICA: Eighth? Everyone knows there are only five dimensions.00:02
kanzureJANEWAY: How could I resist your magnetism?00:02
kanzureCHAOTICA: Or I yours! Together we'll rule the cosmos and grind our enemies into dust!00:02
fennthat is definitely not how you spell eighthh00:03
ebowdenYou know, there was one person, a bouncer, who also had an IQ of 167, who could hold about 21, rather than 7, elements in his head.00:04
kanzurewhat if i told you my iq was 11 inches00:04
cpopellebowden: always doubt those claims.00:04
fenn167? i highly doubt it. because the world-highest-IQ human also is a bouncer, and it's higher than that00:05
cpopellwe don't really have adequate testing for greater than 3 SD IQs, I believe00:05
kanzuremensa self-pity interest group00:06
ebowdenWorking memory and IQ are not quite the same thing.00:06
fennIQ is mostly spatial pattern recognition.. blah00:06
fenni say this as someone who values spatial pattern recognition00:06
cpopellebowden: kuudes in #lesswrong studies IQ papers and stuff a lot I think00:07
ebowdenkuudes?00:07
cpopella user00:07
ebowdenOh, ok.00:07
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fenn"I’ve heard several hackers say that after drinking even half a beer they can’t program at all." which makes me wonder why so many startups have beer clubs and are obsessed with beer00:12
fennit's like hiring pyromaniacs to work in your explosives factory00:13
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ebowdenLOL00:13
cpopellfenn: beer for ideas, coffee for implementation!00:13
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fennlearning touch typing is simple, stay up all night on IRC on a crappy netbook with no keyboard lights00:15
fenncpopell: ah the waterfall model, or should we say kahlua mudslide model00:16
fennare all these words really spelled right? eighth? kahlua?00:17
cpopellmhm00:17
fennthe pitfalls of growing new brain cells00:18
ebowdenOh, kanzure, have you heard of that study where they got people to play a game to distract them from whatever it was they were doing to their brains, and were able to teach them visual cues without them being actually showing them?00:18
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cpopellI remember that00:19
ebowdenI can't find much on it.00:19
fennsounds like every psychology study ever00:19
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ebowdenWell, accept for popsci articles going: "OMFG! They can program skills into you! OMFG!"00:19
fenn"this study is about psychomotor perception in depressed college students blah blah blah pay no attention to the man in the ape suit"00:20
ebowdenLOL00:20
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cpopellyeah, ebowden, can't find the study00:21
ebowdenFrom a popsci article:00:23
ebowden(You know this is going to be good.)00:23
fennthe SR-71 had a laser line horizon display, it was imperceptible if you looked straight at it but nevertheless kept the pilot oriented00:23
ebowden"Researchers from Boston University and Japan's ATR Computational Neuroscience Laboratories designed a decoded functional MRI neurofeedback method that induces a pre-recorded activation pattern in targeted early visual brain areas that could also produce the pattern through regular learning. They then tested whether repetitions of the fMRI pattern caused an improvement in the performance of that visual featur00:23
ebowdene."00:23
fennum what00:25
ebowdenYeah, from a popsci article.00:25
fenn"produce the pattern" means "we saw it on the brain scan"?00:26
ebowdenPretty much.00:26
fennso, what's the discovery? it just sounds like two ways of saying the same thing00:26
ebowden"RESULTS: The experiments successfully demonstrated that, through a person's visual cortex, decoded fMRI could be used to impart brain activity patterns that match a previously known target state. Interestingly, behavioral data obtained before and after the neurofeedback training showed improved performance of the relevant visual tasks especially when the subjects were unaware of the nature of what they were00:26
ebowdenlearning."00:26
ebowdenAgain, mysteriously hard to find the original study.00:27
fenncould you summarize what you think the article was about?00:28
ebowdenOh, one sec:00:28
ebowdenhttp://www.sciencemag.org/content/334/6061/1413.abstract00:28
ebowdenThere we are.00:28
ebowden"PERCEPTUAL LEARNING INCEPTED BY DECODED FMRI NEUROFEEDBACK WITHOUT STIMULUS PRESENTATION"00:28
paperbothttp://libgen.org/scimag/get.php?doi=10.1126%2Fscience.121200300:30
ebowdenIt's got 62 citations at the moment, it seems.00:30
ebowdenhttp://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3297423/pdf/nihms-359501.pdf00:30
ebowdenHow's that?00:32
fenn"early visual areas are so plastic that mere inductions of activity patterns are sufficient to cause learning"  i wasn't aware that this was still unproven00:33
fenni mean how else would it work00:34
fenni guess i dont understand why this is in popsci00:34
ebowdenMAGIC HOMEOPATHIC BRAIN PATRERNZ!00:35
ebowdenBut yeah, it's just interesting that they did it without presentation of stimuli.00:35
ebowdenIt apparently worked better when they were unaware of what they were doing.00:36
fennof course00:36
ebowdenbrb00:36
cpopellhttp://phys.org/news/2014-04-hidden-efficiencies-architecture.html I wonder how many terrible inaccuracies are in this article00:38
ebowdenBack.00:38
ebowdenProbably pretty terrible.00:39
ebowden"Matrix style learning! OMFG! OMFG!"00:39
ebowdenIt would be interesting to see if we could use the method used to train "early visual areas" to train the PFC.00:42
fennhttp://www.thefunctionalart.com/2014/04/the-jonah-lehrer-effect.html00:42
cpopellebowden: so are you in hs/college/working?00:44
ebowdenI'm in year 12 of high school.00:44
cpopellUK00:44
cpopell?00:44
ebowdenAustralia.00:44
cpopellah, alright00:44
cpopellright. UK that would be sixth form(?)00:45
cpopellUS it would be 12th grade00:45
ebowdenOk.00:45
cpopellwhat are you doing after graduation?00:46
ebowdenWant to go into biotech, so that I may create a genetically engineered talking dog and have wacky adventures with it.00:46
jrayhawkah, living the dream00:47
ebowdenYeah.00:47
ebowdenOh, who here has ever had trouble with ethics boards?00:47
ebowden:D00:48
jrayhawki like this line of questioning already00:48
cpopell...yashgaroth got threatened with a cease and desist by the defense threat reduction agency, iirc00:48
ebowdenWhat?00:48
cpopellThey told him that if he did human testing they were going to bring the hammer down, I believe.00:49
cpopellHe told me this story last year, so I might not be remembering right.00:49
ebowdenWhat was he doing?00:49
cpopellSomeone here might have been at the event it happened at00:49
cpopellhe's working with myostatin restriction00:49
ebowdenWhat is the role of myostatin restriction?00:50
* cpopell is too poor of a biologist to state technically, so will copy/paste00:51
jrayhawkhttp://ibmmyositis.com/supercow09.jpg00:51
cpopell'Myostatin is a secreted growth differentiation factor that is a member of the TGF beta protein family that inhibits muscle differentiation and growth in the process known as myogenesis. Myostatin is produced primarily in skeletal muscle cells, circulates in the blood and acts on muscle tissue, by binding a cell-bound receptor called the activin type II receptor.[2][3]'00:51
ebowdenAh.00:51
cpopelltl;dr super serum00:51
Viper168teal deer00:51
Viper168:O00:52
ebowdenSo, where's he going with it?00:52
cpopellvov, ask him00:52
ebowdenDamn, he's not here.00:53
fenni suspect gwern is surreptitiously running a distributed bitcoin miner in the javascript on his page, but I can't prove it00:53
fenndoes DTRA think that telling the upright responsible guy they're going to "bring the hammer down" will deter anyone from doing this sort of research?00:55
Lemminkainenmyostatin also signals for happy breakdown of damaged muscle fibers00:56
Lemminkainenfollistatin is a WAY better target for the effects you're looking at00:56
ebowdenI don't know, bureaucracies can be a little detached from reality at times.00:56
fennit will still happen, just in a less safe environment and with less eyes on the problem to detect possible bad stuffs before they happen00:57
cpopellfenn: my guess is their worry is he was going to test unregulated on people00:57
cpopellfenn: there's plenty of regulated research going on in the field00:57
fennunregulated what00:57
fennthis is the FDA's jurisdiction if anything00:58
ebowdenLemminkainen, you read the thing on teaching without presenting stimuli?00:58
fennDTRA is about bioterrorism00:58
fennand other terrorism00:58
fennand stuff00:58
cpopellyou'd have to ask yashgaroth00:58
ebowdenImagine, disease that gives you massive muscles.00:58
fennso did they tell him to stop because it was biological, or because of "and stuff"00:58
cpopellSee previous comment00:58
fennyas<tab><tab> waaah00:59
cpopellhe's asleep I suspect00:59
ebowden"And over to our science reporter, Alex Jones."01:00
fenntrust me, i'm from the lunatic fringe01:01
fennLemminkainen: but since you're a lazy nerd you wouldn't be damaging any muscle fibers by doing exercise anyway..01:02
cpopellI know quite a few fit nerds01:02
ebowdenEven so, I don't think you'd appreciate Alex Jones as a science reporter.01:02
ebowdenLemminkainen, you there?01:04
Lemminkainenright fenn right the most i ever use muscles is to make ramen01:04
ebowdenOh.01:04
cpopelllemminkainen: andre will be so disappointed to hear that :V01:05
Lemminkainenoh he's been gone01:05
cpopellRussia, right?01:05
Lemminkainensince then I've built a very comfortable sensory deprivation tank01:05
Lemminkainenthat's where I live now01:05
Lemminkainena nice steady stream of spice01:05
cpopellAndre ditched you for Russia and Angelica ditched you for Coachella :P01:05
ebowdenLemminkainen, you read this? http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3297423/pdf/nihms-359501.pdf01:06
fennLemminkainen: sign me up01:06
Lemminkainenebowden not yet, I'll glance through it tomorrow01:07
Lemminkainenfor now I am going to escape looking at screens01:07
ebowdenAh, right.01:07
fenni've been designing "mobile sleep gunnm" an ATV-towable sleep pod01:07
ebowdenNight Lemminkainen.01:07
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fennsoon i'll be raging across the arctic wilderness in perfect warmth, pulled along by my trusty cybernetic sled dogs01:13
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fennthis made my day http://ruzamarkov.com/content/10.blog/2.2opt/smiley.pdf01:25
fennrest in peace, louis wain01:27
fennxentrac: re http://lists.canonical.org/pipermail/kragen-tol/2005-May/000776.html  instead of a video, bounce a multiply diffracted laser beam off your mirror array and record the reflections. with enough laser points you can discriminate between harmonics and resynthesize the waveform. the active mirror telescopes do something like this but with guide stars instead of lasers01:41
fennor maybe that is what you said.01:41
fennplaystation eye high speed webcams use a 4 element microphone array for exactly this purpose, but there's no linux driver afaik01:42
fennanyway you have the usual temporal/spatial/bit depth tradeoff; a high speed camera will add more more01:44
fenni suspect just an array of 4 or 8 decent quality microphones separated by several wavelengths would be satisfactory for most recording purposes (technically you only need 3 but redundancy helps with noise rejection)01:46
fennalso this allows recording in any light conditions01:46
fennwind would be a real problem with a hanging mylar foil sheet, you'd want to fix it along all the edges01:47
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fenni was thinking it would be nice if the android "tricorder" app actually used its acoustic scanner function to do roughly 1d sonar. the speaker emission isn't omnidirectional, and neither is the microphone. combined with accelerometer, camera, gps, and magnetometer to provide orientation, you could build up a good idea of the environment from an acoustic perspective01:51
fenntime of flight is actually reasonable at the speed of sound over room-sized distances. knowing local temperature and barometer from weather data and gps altitude, you could accurately measure room dimensions01:52
fennof course it would have to make a noise like this: http://www.nick.com/videos/clip/marooned-clip-1.html02:12
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ebowdenIs anyone here at the moment?02:22
cpopellyo02:23
ebowdenOh, hey.02:23
cpopellbed soon tho02:24
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ebowdenOh, ok.02:25
cpopellsun's rising02:25
ebowdenWow, you're up late.02:25
cpopellI had writing to do, a little bit of code to poke at, and articles to read02:26
ebowdenOk. So, do you think the method they used to train without stimulus presentation could be useful for potentially efficacious working memory training?02:26
cpopellI think that it's possible02:27
cpopellI can't comment either way, I don't have the knowledge to make an informed statement02:27
ebowdenAh, ok.02:27
ebowdenWell, the subject being unaware of it will probably help in stopping them forming task specific strategies.02:28
ebowdenI do wonder exactly what kind of benefit we might end up being able to get.02:31
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cpopellebowden: I'm honestly more curious about tcds benefits (and similar)02:36
cpopellAnyway.02:36
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ebowdenOk.02:36
ebowdenWhy not combine them? :D02:36
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ebowdenAnyone here?05:12
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xmjno.05:18
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eudoxiaoh no someone younger than me, now i really have to start being productive :O06:05
ebowdenWho's younger than you?06:06
eudoxiaguess :D06:06
ebowdenI'm 18, but there are probably younger here.06:07
ebowdenAre there?06:07
eudoxiagradstudent bot is only like 1 year old and when he becomes sentient he's gonna want to be counted06:07
eudoxiagradstudentbot*06:07
ebowdenLOL06:08
eudoxiabut other than that, not to the best of my knowledge06:08
eudoxiai'm 19, president and former sole member of the ##hplusroadmap kidz' corner06:09
ebowdenLOL06:09
ebowdenKidz' corner.06:09
eudoxiahow did you run into this channel?06:09
eudoxiafriendly question not "jack bauer asking how did you get this number" question06:10
ebowdenOh, yeah, I was interested in the possible biosynthesis of fullerenes, and Juri_ directed me.06:11
eudoxiaso can it be done or not06:11
ebowdenWell, nanotubes are certainly not inert to some enzymes.06:13
ebowdenMyeloperoxidase, for example.06:13
eudoxiai think i remember something about an enzyme that dissolved them06:13
eudoxiaah that's the one06:14
ebowdenYup.06:14
eudoxiathere's something i've been wondering about the whole health risks of nanotubes thing06:14
ebowdenDepends on length.06:15
eudoxiaapparently it's because cells try to adsorb the capped ends of nanotubes, thinking they're nutrients, and then they can't adsorb them all because they are too long06:15
eudoxiaso they block the uh cell passages or whatever06:15
eudoxiawhat about uncapped nanotubes though?06:15
eudoxiahttp://www.rsc.org/ej/PC/2006/b419102c/b419102c-f1.gif like this, just picture terminating hydrogens06:16
ebowdenAh, ok.06:17
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kanzureeudoxia: he already has an unhealthy appreciation of age, don't exacerbate it06:53
ebowdenOk, what are you talking about?06:54
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kanzurejust because people are older than you doesn't mean they are worth your time06:55
kanzureor, something06:55
ebowdenOh, I never said that someone being older than me made them worth my time.06:56
ebowdenI just said that my being 18 made me unlikely to be as qualified and knowledgable as a professional scientist in his own field.06:57
ebowdenTwo very different things.06:57
kanzureoh great, now you like professionals06:58
kanzurethis is getting worse by the minute06:58
ebowdenLook, I don't think it's unreasonable to assume that someone like me is not particularly likely to approach that level of knowledge.07:00
ebowdenLook, I don't think it's unreasonable to assume that someone like me is not particularly likely to have that level of knowledge.07:01
ebowdenOops.07:01
ebowdenTypo.07:01
eudoxiaso where in australia do you live07:02
ebowdenTasmania, the inbred state.07:02
eudoxialol07:02
ebowden(It's an Island.)07:02
kanzureyes we know geography07:03
ebowdenOh, it was merely to ring the point home about Tasmania being inbred.07:03
eudoxiatasmania sounds cold, what's the temperature like07:04
ebowdenThere are places there where EVERYONE looks related.07:04
ebowdenNormal for me.07:04
ebowdenIt's considered an ideal climate.07:04
ebowdenVery moderate in summer and winter.07:04
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eudoxia[by whom?]07:05
ebowdenVenomFangX, NephlimFreed, and Alex Jones.07:06
ebowden:D07:06
* eudoxia googles07:06
eudoxiai knew venomfangx sounded familiar07:06
ebowden:D:D:D07:06
ebowdenYeah, both of those guys are insane youtube creationists.07:07
ebowdenNephlimFreed is a geocentrist as well.07:07
ebowdenTruly some wacky shit.07:07
eudoxiai can't wait for a geocentrist posthuman to start rearranging star systems to orbit habitable-zone planets07:08
ebowdenLOL07:08
ebowdenOh, this shit is hilarious:07:09
ebowdenhttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QhibN89WJtI07:09
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eudoxiadoes this coldhardlogic guy just make videos cataloguing the paranoid schizophrenic of the internet?07:12
ebowdenNo.07:13
kanzurethat's a short list, they're all the same person i think07:13
eudoxiakanzure: who was the guy who wanted you to resurrect his mother?07:13
kanzurejuyun kim07:13
eudoxiathe south korean professional golfer?07:14
kanzureno07:14
kanzurejoo yeon kim07:14
kanzure"The alternative seems to be software randomly corrupting the installs, not much of a tradeoff. We could have a setting at least to disable the obfuscation (we'll need to support obfuscation off for 'legacy files' in any case). At least then they'd have to be specifically targeting Bitcoin."07:17
kanzure"If it makes you feel better, obfuscating the block files would address some fringe risks. E.g. say someone discovers some disk sector value that that a popular brand of disk always stores incorrectly (don't laugh, I've had silicon flaws in switches result in packets that they cannot forward, due to the bit pattern making it lose sync with internal busses)... and exploit it to fork the network."07:17
kanzurehttps://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/4069#issuecomment-4086311507:17
eudoxiawell i use linux so i'm invincible07:19
kanzureeudoxia: i don't think that one is schizophrenic, he simply legitimately believes i know things07:21
eudoxiakanzure: he's still fubared in the head if he thinks you can revive with cryopreserved mother07:23
eudoxias/with/his07:23
kanzurethanks for the vote of confidence07:24
eudoxiacan now, not could in the future :>07:24
eudoxiaalso, do you know the patient number and name so i can add her to my cryopatient list?07:25
kanzurethis corpsicle is somewhere at cryonics institute07:26
eudoxiai guessed07:26
kanzureprobably the only korean one07:26
eudoxiait's not like they have a detailed record of names07:26
kanzurei can't imagine many korean females opting for cryopreservation07:26
eudoxiaespecially now with the site redesign they seem to have thrown the old case reports and patient lists out07:27
ebowdenWell, night guys.07:27
kanzure"the one with the brain aneurysm"07:27
eudoxiahm that narrows it down07:28
eudoxiag07:28
eudoxiag'ngiht ebowden07:28
ebowdenAnd for the record, although he is older than I, I wouldn't go to ken ham for advice on molecular biology.07:29
ebowdenBye guys.07:29
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eudoxiahm there are only references to aortic aneurysms07:29
eudoxiahttp://198.170.115.106/reports/CI69.html no cause of death listed, does this seem like the right date?07:33
kanzureno07:34
eudoxiahttp://198.170.115.106/reports/CI73.html brain autopsied07:35
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kanzure"mov is Turing-complete" http://www.cl.cam.ac.uk/~sd601/papers/mov.pdf08:36
kanzureequity/options/vesting etc https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=761052708:40
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kanzureone possible incentive for hardware packaging could be the ability to sue anyone (like patents)09:40
kanzurebut a legal incentive is much less compelling to a functional incentive09:40
kanzurehttps://www.kickstarter.com/projects/openworm/openworm-a-digital-organism-in-your-browser09:45
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kanzureoh i wonder why the location is marked as san diego09:54
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cluckjhaha worm dudes...10:26
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ThomasEgisimulate a virtual neuron, in a virtual worm, in a sandbox, in a browser, in a OS, in a virtual machine, ....10:34
catern...hosted on a server, in a virtual universe10:46
xmjthe matrix.10:47
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kanzure"Outside of the germline, C. elegans does not undergo cellular division in the adult stage. There is a fixed developmental pattern, with exactly 959 cells in the adult hermaphrodite. Also, the connectivity map of the entire nervous system is known."13:01
kanzurehuh, i didn't know about the no cellular division aspect13:01
kanzure"There's this project by Stanford to simulate Mycoplasma genitalium: http://wholecellviz.stanford.edu "13:02
kanzurepaperbot: http://www.cell.com/abstract/S0092-8674(12)00776-313:03
paperbothttp://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/paperbot/A%20Whole-Cell%20Computational%20Model%20Predicts%20Phenotype%20from%20Genotype.pdf13:03
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kanzurei'm not sure these stickers are worth anything to people who donate money13:06
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drazakkanzure: did you put your books drive in a HUGE torrent on iptorrents?13:35
drazakmy friend downloaded something that looks strangely familiar13:36
kanzureno13:36
kanzuremany of the contents were from some ancient torrents13:36
drazakah13:36
drazakgot like 16gb of math books13:36
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drazakhttp://pastebin.com/P1gr4FMb13:48
drazakthat's the folders in /math/13:48
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kanzurethere should be a cryonics horror fiction about some vigilante that steals corpsicles or something14:42
kanzure"thank you, ice packing man"14:42
kanzureoh right, that was dr. fries14:42
kanzurefreeze14:42
andytoshimaybe he uses the frozen brains to do computations, which requires reanimating them14:44
andytoshiand for some reason the computations feel like losing love?14:44
eudoxiaare u satoshi14:45
nshyes14:47
nshand so are my y-fronts14:47
kanzurei'm satoshi and so is my wife14:48
cpopell`sleepkanzure: someone tell gwern14:48
kanzurei've always been surprised about how there's no schizophrenic going around claiming that alcor or cryonics institute or ben best aren't just people with a pathological obsession with collecting human bodies14:50
kanzureit would be a very easy claim to make14:50
eudoxiayou'd think there would be some weirdo with a youtube channel going around filming in a forest for evidence that alcor dumps bodies in rivers14:51
kanzurealcor is a front for the mafia14:51
kanzurewhen they threatened to dump your body into a river what they meant was a river of liquid nitrogen14:51
kanzureand by river they meant, get into this casket14:51
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cluckjlol14:52
eudoxiathere's a joke somewhere about cryocare's underground concrete dewar vaults14:52
andytoshikanzure: someone here could do it, use http://youtu.be/58I8ukqbk8k for inspiration (a truly insane video which seems to be accusing dan dennett of being a tool of the vatican/NWO using 5-second clips of his interviews, screenshots of wikipedia with dozens of words circled, loud spooky music and pictures of satan, people laughing, etc. really artistic and over an hour long o_O)14:56
eudoxiawell there is some historical precedent14:57
eudoxiaCSC let their bodies thaw and rot14:57
eudoxiaand TT was going to throw out three patients14:57
cluckjaw shit my router has a heartbleed vulnerable ssl15:15
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ParahSailinhttp://morepypy.blogspot.be/2014/04/stm-results-and-second-call-for.html16:05
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kanzureParahSailin: this is a little fun http://www.ribbonfarm.com/2009/11/11/the-gervais-principle-ii-posturetalk-powertalk-babytalk-and-gametalk/16:17
ParahSailinyeah saw that a while ago16:17
ebowdenLOL love the name.16:17
ParahSailinmeanwhile, the civilized world has been using stm for a while16:17
kanzureParahSailin: "The second reason is that tactics make sense only in the context of an entire narrative (including mutual assessments of personality, strengths, weaknesses and history) of a given interpersonal relationship. The clueless have no sense of narrative rationality, and the losers are too trapped in their own stories to play to other scripts. Both the clueless and losers are too self-absorbed to put in much work developing accurate ...16:17
kanzure... and usable mental models of others."16:18
eudoxiaguys i think i may be a loser16:18
kanzurewell, you're certainly stuck16:19
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kanzurenot impossibly stuck though16:19
kanzurejust normal amounts of stuck16:20
eudoxiado you mean emotionally stuck or stuck as in i haven't uploaded any insects in the years i've been here16:20
ParahSailindont worry, nasal spray oxytocin can convert you to sociopath16:20
kanzurei haven't seen any progress from you on anything except your ability to bug me about things (which, by the way, i do appreciate)16:20
ebowdenI wonder kanzure, would it be possible for this place to get actual funding from the NRA?16:21
kanzureebowden: yes i think it's possible16:21
kanzureebowden: gene guns16:21
ebowdenLOL16:21
ParahSailinfreedom viruses16:21
kanzureebowden: 2nd amendmight rights for synthetic biology16:21
kanzure*amendment16:21
ParahSailinsecond amendment covers biological warfare16:21
kanzureyep16:21
ebowdenWell, why not?16:22
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kanzurebecause i haven't written a proposal yet16:22
eudoxiai should do nootropics16:22
kanzurealso because the amount of money that the NRA could give me is not really that much16:22
ParahSailinthe state dept has a request for proposals for a north kr freedom virus16:22
eudoxiamaybe if i fake ADHD or whatever i can get something prescribed16:22
kanzurelike, is it really worth owing research to the NRA for a measly $300k or whatever they could cough up?16:22
kanzureeudoxia: sure, but also it might be helpful to put some thought into whatever it is you're doing16:23
ebowdenWhat exactly would they want from you?16:23
kanzureeudoxia: like, are you still waiting around for me to lisperize nanoengineer and then..?16:23
eudoxiakanzure: that too16:23
kanzureebowden: NRA accepts research proposals for grants/funding16:23
ebowdenNeat.16:24
kanzureebowden: so they'd probably want community outreach or something16:24
kanzureebowden: and i might have to find an NRA member to convince, or pay dues or some crap16:24
eudoxiakanzure: hahaha no, i've basically given up on MNT happening any time soon or ever16:24
kanzurei didn't make a claim about MNT, but ok16:24
kanzurebbl16:24
ebowdenMNT?16:24
eudoxiaand skdb is an interesting project to work on but the stuff you said the other day gave me a minor existential crisis about it16:25
eudoxiaebowden: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Molecular_nanotechnology16:25
ebowdenEudoxia, what is SKBD?16:25
ebowdenAh, thanks.16:26
eudoxiaebowden: http://gnusha.org/skdb/ https://github.com/kanzure/skdb16:26
ebowdenThanks.16:30
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kanzureeudoxia: i don't think they are intractable problems with something like skdb17:02
kanzureeudoxia: they are simply problems that need to be solved17:02
eudoxialike paying people in skdbcoin every time a package is submitted17:03
kanzuretoo much of a hack17:03
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eudoxiaor just make enough packages that people who want to develop hardware will say "oh look this skdb thing might make life easier"17:04
kanzurea debian package is useful even to a single user that never releases the package to others17:04
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kanzurecubespawn's insistence on standardized containers was interesting17:05
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kanzureeven if you strip out the physical instantiation of hardware packages17:09
kanzurethere are still weird problems with things like technology dependency trees17:09
kanzurebecause then you get into problems of ontologies or arguments about actual paths for the construction of certain functional piles of matter17:09
kanzuregiven two rectangular planar plates of metal there are multiple manufacturing routes to reach that17:11
kanzures/given two/given a17:12
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kanzureand the only time that technology dependency trees have been literally useful has been in real-time strategy games heh17:13
cpopellkanzure: are you a Civ fan?17:13
kanzureactually no17:13
cpopellI'm looking forward to Civ:BE, though I had no real interest in Civ 517:14
kanzureplayed a bunch of it when i was younger with my dad17:14
ParahSailinfreeciv is the best civ17:14
cpopellat least 2 of the 3 tech paths in Beyond Earth are H+17:14
kanzurewe used to do warcraft 2 but moved on to civilization at some point17:14
ParahSailinconcurrent turn 16 player games with macros17:14
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kanzureit wasn't /bad/ but i'm not exactly playing it at 3am..17:15
cpopellI played a lot of Sword of the Stars in college17:15
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delinquentmekanzure, I'm writing up a quick profile on 2013 igem winners ... with 1 sentence statements of their application ... do you want a copy of this?17:20
kanzureuh, alright17:20
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eudoxiakanzure: well, you could always make a package that's just pointers to store where you can buy the stuff, and then someone else comes along and makes a package that has actual dependency and build trees17:49
eudoxiabut yeah, it's not as clear-cut as software package management17:49
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kanzureParahSailin: meetlog should be renamed to "computational sociopathy"19:34
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fennwow Examine.com has really filled out since I last looked at it. 30,000 scientific papers about dietary supplement studies, condensed and regularized. here's their pesky reference guide, clocking in at just over 1000 pages https://www.dropbox.com/s/j0outxxb23o9ett/Examine%20Updated.pdf21:34
fennof course you STILL can't sort by effect magnitude21:35
ebowdenWho's it pesky to, and what's pesky about it?21:35
fennit's pesky because they used to have the collated info available online, but now you have to buy the book just to use the website the way it used to work21:36
fennunfortunately pirating the book doesn't get you website access21:36
fennhowever i suspect even if you bought the book you still wouldn't be able to sort by magnitude21:37
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cpopellfenn: it's their fulltime job21:41
fennremind me again why the US government doesn't pay them to do this21:42
cpopellI think they're canadian21:42
cpopell:V21:42
fennUK i think21:42
cpopeller, no21:42
fenndoesn't matter21:42
cpopellKurtis Frank is def canadian21:42
cpopelldunno about Sol Orwell21:42
fennthe point is, NIH has a gazillion dollars to fund medical research, but nobody knows much about supplements21:43
fennthe US army keeps a similar list, but it's not as large or as rigorous21:44
fenni wish google search results had a "fuck off and give me the URL" option21:46
fennwhy would you ever put an ellipsis in a youtube video url21:47
fennthey're all the same length21:48
ebowdenOh, anyone here ever found a significant religious element on ethics boards?21:50
fennyou mean institutional review boards? not from my experience21:50
ebowdenAh, that's good.21:51
fennthey are usually made up of tenured professors in the field you are working in21:52
ebowdenI remember, I wrote a story in which all the christians left an ethics board, which, as we all would have guessed resulted in the creation of a spiked worm creature that could shoot superheated perchloric acid from it's bum.21:52
ebowden*guessed,21:52
ebowden*its21:53
ebowden:D21:53
fennuh, doesn't that already exist?21:54
fennthe bombardier beetle21:55
ebowdenFormic acid and perchloric acid are a little different...21:55
ebowdenMore than a little different.21:55
ebowdenFormic acid is a nasty irritant.21:55
ebowdenPerchloric acid is superacid, stronger than sulphuric acid, and is also a very potent oxidising agent. Anhydrous perchloric acid explodes on contact with organic matter.21:56
ebowden*is a21:56
ParahSailinthe beetle that shoots hot shit is hydroquinone and hydrogen peroxide21:57
fennwhat does hydroquinone do?21:57
ebowdenOh, right.21:57
fenntastes bad?21:57
kanzurenih only has 30 gazillion (billion)21:58
ParahSailinits just something that oxidizes exothermically in this case21:58
ebowdenStill, nowhere near the level of nastiness of perchloric acid.21:58
fennebowden: there probably are IRB's that have strongly religious members, i'd expect most religious universities would21:59
kanzurethere are non-religious reasons that people can choose to support the precautionary principle21:59
kanzures/support/employ21:59
kanzureon review boards.21:59
fennalso federal IRB's in the bush administration were something of a clusterfuck22:00
ebowdenWell, why don't we establish our own lab, and make our review board from carefully preserved corpses.22:00
kanzureif the nuremberg trials ever reach ##hplusroadmap i'm gonna tell them you guys did it :duck:22:00
ebowden:D22:00
kanzureebowden: many people do have their own labs. what of it?22:00
kanzureby many i mean like 322:00
ebowdenLOL22:01
fenni didn't do it (dj bart simpson remix)22:01
kanzurebut the important thing is that it's non-zero22:01
fenna statistically significant number of people have their own labs22:01
ebowdenKanzure, we must build a big underground lab, with completely inexplicable tanks and catwalks everywhere.22:01
kanzurethe problem with an underground lab is that the business model is not very obvious22:02
kanzureit's not like you can tell cancer patients to take your radiation drug because it's cheaper22:02
kanzure(because their insurance company is probably paying for it anyway)22:02
kanzure(and big pharma then covers all the other uncovered people because big pharma doesn't want to be bloodied up by bad press coverage)22:02
fennexcept for when the insurance company doesn't pay for it22:03
fennsome of that shit is stupidly expensive22:03
kanzurei've been trying to find evidence of this22:03
fennlike $10k/mo22:03
fennor more22:03
ebowdenThe purpose isn't to make money, it's to have a bunch of inexplicable catwalks, tanks and pipes everywhere.22:03
kanzureso, consider the antibody drugs that are $400k/mo for super rare you're gonna fucking die disease22:03
ebowden:D22:03
kanzureoops $400k/year i mean22:03
kanzurei am having a lot of trouble finding anyone complaining about how they're gonna die if they don't get it22:04
kanzureit turns out this is the exact sort of public relations blackmail that big pharma tries to avoid by giving them the damn medicine22:04
kanzurewhich weeds out the opportunity for clandestine underground stuff22:04
* fenn mutters something about tuberculosis in africa22:05
kanzureinterestingly enough none of the $400k/year antibody drugs look like they cost anywhere near $400k to produce on a small scale22:05
kanzure(much lower)22:05
kanzurei thought there's a flood of tuberculosis drugs, the problem is finding all the people in africa?22:05
ParahSailintheres that ebola outbreak in guinea right now22:06
fennalmost certainly not; just call up your friendly neighborhood monoclonal antibody specialist and have them send the rabbit right over22:06
ParahSailinthey could use some draco22:06
yashgarothTB is a logistics problem, or it was before people started slacking on their antibiotic regimens22:06
fennParahSailin: what's draco?22:06
kanzuredraco is something that venturecommunism was ranting about as a broad-spectrum antiviral mumble mumble22:06
ParahSailinDs Rna Activate Caspase O-something22:06
fennalso wtf why does nobody seriously develop phage therapy in the 21st century22:06
ParahSailinbecause phage therapy is hinky22:07
fenn"hinky"?22:07
kanzurelearn the lingo fenn22:07
yashgarothdraco overrides the cell's normal response to viral infection by just having it die immediately22:07
ParahSailinextremely specific22:07
fennum, yeah. it kills the tuberculosis, not you.22:07
fennisn't specificity a good thing?22:07
ParahSailinextreme specificity22:08
yashgarothalso phages are a target for your own immune system22:08
ParahSailintheres a reason other than vast right wing conspiracy that phage therapy hasnt overtaken antibioitcs22:08
fennfortunately the lungs are exposed to direct treatment22:08
fennParahSailin: i always figured there's just no money in it?22:09
fenncan't patent 1970s soviet technology22:09
ParahSailinlets move past the conspiracy theory part22:09
fennit's not a conspiracy theory22:09
fennjust a market explanation22:09
yashgarothif they can re-patent a drug by mixing in some token additive, I'm sure they can find a way to patent phage22:10
ParahSailinpaperbot: http://cid.oxfordjournals.org/content/58/4/535.short22:10
kanzureahem just like the "big pharma gives out the expensive drugs for free" market explanation (although, it would be interesting to put out a call to collect evidence to the contrary)22:10
paperbothttp://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/paperbot/96efca4e09ee4d28e63b0c0e9575b22f.txt22:10
fennclinical trials cost money.. blah blah blah. same reason they don't do lots of studies on vitamins and herbs etc22:10
fennjesus sometimes i can't believe the things they hide behind paywalls22:13
fennpaperbot: http://cid.oxfordjournals.org/content/58/4/535.full22:13
paperbothttp://libgen.org/scimag/get.php?doi=10.1093%2Fcid%2Fcit77622:14
* fenn snores22:15
kanzurefind me evidence of people not getting necessary expensive-but-easy-to-manufacture drugs22:15
kanzureideally large groups of said people..22:16
fenni suppose you mean people who also have money to spend22:18
kanzurewell, maybe not a lot of money22:18
fennmore than $122:18
kanzuremore than the costs of shipping, perhaps22:19
ParahSailinwell, disenfranchised people tend to be out of sight with no voice22:19
kanzureor dead22:19
kanzuremaybe that's the other half of the equation22:19
kanzure"well, if they make a stink in the news, we can just give it to them"22:20
kanzure"and if they don't, they die. so it kind of takes care of itself."22:20
fennso this paper basically just says what i said; phage therapy would compete with antibiotics, it's unpatentable, it would cost $5 million per medical trial, no legal framework in place for phages, and lack of published scientific trials on humans22:20
ParahSailinits not just chinese who you see in the tcm pharmacies22:20
kanzureso, maybe simple site where people on expensive drugs sign in (dead man switch), and when they die due to lack of medication, that data gets tracked22:20
ParahSailinlots of mexicans and africans too22:21
kanzurebecause you can't retroactively ask them if they couldn't get their dumb blood thinners or w/e22:21
fennthe paper also points at http://phagoburn.eu22:21
fennkanzure: people usually have surviving family members that know this kind of thing22:22
fennit's a sample bias but whatever22:23
kanzurehttp://www.rushlimbaugh.com/daily/2010/09/24/obamacare_death_panels_target_expensive_cancer_drug_avastin22:23
kanzure"CALLER: Yeah, that's fine. For a month's dosage it runs between 20,000 and $30,000."22:23
kanzure"death panels" lovely22:23
ParahSailini told you!22:23
fenndeath to avastin, yarrr matey22:23
ParahSailinthey're real!22:23
fennpew pew22:23
fenni like to think of the death panels as phased array microwave beams on my orbiting battle station22:24
kanzureyes but where's the number on deaths from not getting stupid-expensive drugs22:24
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fennthat data is available from the office of we-dont-track-that22:25
kanzuremaybe this can be estimated22:25
kanzureobviously the number is less than the total population22:25
ParahSailinyou know that big data dump the medicine ministry just released?22:25
ParahSailinmaybe there are gleanings to be had22:25
kanzureso at most i'm off by two or three orders of magnitude22:25
kanzuremaybe SEC tax filing report stuff from big pharma has total patient estimates22:26
fenndid we just get a big lag?22:27
kanzuredoesn't look like it to me22:27
kanzurecompare against gnusha logs22:27
fennmeh22:27
fennanyway i saw a news report a couple days ago about people dying from not getting drugs, of course it was a pretty middle class white girl they focused on, but presumably there were others22:28
fenni wasn't paying much attention, obviously22:28
kanzure"The Centers for Disease Control and Prevention puts the annual cost of asthma in the United States at more than $56 billion, including millions of potentially avoidable hospital visits and more than 3,300 deaths, many involving patients who skimped on medicines or did without."22:28
fennoh but nobody bothers to research magnesium for asthma22:29
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fennthose new "medicines" work by killing your immune system22:30
ParahSailinthere are undoubtedly people in the third world dying of cancer but can't get avastin22:30
fennit's too bad all-cause mortality studies take so long22:31
ParahSailinroche made 6.2 bn chf from avastin last year22:31
ParahSailinanother 6.9 bn from MabThera22:32
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kanzure"96% of the non-compliant patients cited unaffordable drugs"22:32
kanzurehttp://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15576016 "Unaffordable drug prices: the major cause of non-compliance with hypertension medication in Ghana"22:33
kanzure"93% of the interviewed patients did not comply with their medications. 96% of the non-compliant patients cited unaffordable drug prices as the main reason for non-compliance."22:33
kanzureyeah...22:33
kanzuregah what's the study size22:33
kanzureah here it is http://www.ualberta.ca/~csps/JPPS7(3)/L.Matowe/hypertension.pdf22:34
kanzure128 patients22:35
kanzurethat's a stupid small number22:35
fenn90% of science is crap22:35
ParahSailinin ghana its probably hard to get subjects because of suspicion of witchcraft22:35
kanzurehttp://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/803415 "In a forum article published online April 25 in Blood, the group of 120 experts from around the world discuss the high cost of leukemia drugs, but emphasize that their concerns extend to many other types of cancer drugs. The high price of drugs has resulted in nonadherence to treatment, they note. In the United States, about 10% of patients fail to take prescribed drugs, largely because of cost."22:36
ParahSailinwow https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Witch_camp22:36
ParahSailin Witch camps exist solely in Ghana, where there are six of them, housing a total of around 1000 women.[1] Some of the camps are thought to have been set up over 100 years ago22:37
kanzure"There were 3 news drugs approved by the FDA in 2012 for chronic myeloid leukemia (CML) — all BCr-Abl tyrosine kinase inhibitors (TKIs). All were "priced at astronomical levels," they write. Ponatinib (Iclusig, Ariad) costs $138,000 annually, omacetaxine (Synribo, Teva) costs $28,000 for induction and $14,000 for a maintenance course, and bosutinib (Bosulif, Pfizer) costs around $118,000 per year."22:37
kanzure"Even the original drug in this class, imatinib (Gleevec, Novartis), which was launched in 2001 at a price of $30,000 per year, has had a huge price hike; in 2012, it cost $92,000 per year."22:37
kanzure"In a letter published in response to the forum article, Hervé Hoppenot, president of Novartis Oncology, emphasized its patient access programs, in which the company provides drugs for free. In the past 5 years, those programs have provided imatinib or its follow-up drug nilotinib (Tasigna) to an average of 5000 uninsured or underinsured American patients annually, he reports. Globally, nearly one third of the imatinib manufactured annually ...22:37
kanzure... is provided at no cost, which amounts to more than 50,000 patients in more than 80 low-income countries to date, he adds. However, he does not comment on the price of imatinib or explain why it has risen since its launch."22:37
kanzure"This is resulting in financial ruin for some patients; medical illness and drug prices are the single-most frequent cause of personal bankruptcy, the group notes."22:38
fenn"witches do not exist, so we are closing the witch camp." great strategy guys22:38
kanzurewell okay, even with copays and premiums, coverage might still be problematic22:38
kanzureand if you're going to be dying, you don't exactly want to leave your family with a $200k bill22:38
kanzure"The high cost is also stopping some patients from taking the drug. The group notes that survival rates are lower in the general population of CML patients in the United States than those reported in clinical trials and from countries such as Sweden, where there is no copayment for medicine, and they suspect that lower treatment penetration rates are to blame."22:38
kanzure" One study conducted over 14 years in Washington state found a clear relationship between cancer registry data and bankruptcy court records. “Patients diagnosed with cancer may face significant financial stress due to income loss and out-of-pocket costs associated with their treatment,” said health care economist and study author Dr. Scott Ramsey. “On average, bankruptcy rates increased fourfold within five years of diagnosis.”"22:39
kanzurebut it also sounds like these guys are just making up estimates too22:40
fennit's also not guaranteed to work, so you're taking this drug that doesn't work and it still costs you $200k, good reason to stop22:40
kanzure"Nearly one-quarter of uninsured people between 18 and 64 skipped buying prescribed medication as a way to save money, according to the report. About one-fifth of poor people also said they skipped taking medication."22:42
kanzureis talking about "Strategies used by adults to reduce their prescription drug costs" http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/data/databriefs/db119.pdf22:42
fennkanzure: with obamacare being so new, all your historical statistics are going to be wrong wrt the current situation22:42
kanzuretrue :|22:42
kanzurealso i don't think sick people that get footed with a $80k/mo bill go straight to "hey i'm gonna go on the internet and complain"22:43
fennyeah it's usually just "well, that's not an option, what else"22:44
kanzure"hm this homeopathic stuff sounds cheap"22:45
fennor they enroll in the charity program22:45
fenni mean 1/3 of patients is a large number22:45
kanzurebut they are getting it for free22:45
kanzurethat really warps the market for people interested in offering a $10 drug22:45
fennbecause $10 is more than free?22:46
* kanzure nods22:46
fennyeah people arent too good at math22:46
kanzureand insurance copies wont cover the $10 drug22:46
fennand the FDA won't approve the $10 drug because they want $5 million first22:47
fennthat means you need at least $5million/$10 = 500,000 patients22:47
fennor something like that22:47
kanzurewell, assume it's underground22:47
kanzureand not bothering with FDA approval stuff22:47
fenngood luck with that22:47
kanzureit's not like there isn't a large market for sketchy drugs on that thing22:48
kanzuredamn what do they call it22:48
kanzureoh yeah the fucking internet22:48
fennmost people buy their synthetic marijuana at gas stations22:48
fennexcuse me, 'herbal potpourri'22:49
fennit really bothers me that so many people take chemicals and nobody knows what it is22:50
xmjhomeopathic stuff.. Steve Jobs has shown the world how well that works, I'd like to thank him for that here.22:50
fennnot even "we don't know the effects of this chemical", but "we don't even know what's in it"22:50
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fennoh damn i meant to ask him something22:52
fennmaybe it's in the logs22:52
fennit wasn't in the logs23:04
xmj?23:04
kanzurehttp://www.ribbonfarm.com/2010/07/26/a-big-little-idea-called-legibility/23:04
kanzure"Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from nature." http://www.ribbonfarm.com/2012/06/05/towards-an-appreciative-view-of-technology/23:04
kanzure"Perhaps as a result, I have been accused in the past (with some justification) of turning my technology writing and thinking into a sort of sloppy anthropomorphic thermodynamic theology based on loose notions of technological agency, entropy and decay. ... In my more mean-spirited and uncharitable moments, I like to think of Biasocial Science as an enterprise driven by the grand-daddy of all biases: the bias towards believing that cataloging ...23:05
xmjfenn: you cannot obtain effects of chemicals but with a trial-error on a very large group of humans.23:05
kanzure... biases advances our understanding of the human condition in a fundamental way that can enable the construction and enactment of a progressive “Ascent of Quantified Man” narrative."23:05
kanzurehttp://www.tempobook.com/2012/06/11/appreciative-versus-manipulative-mental-models/ "My instinctive preference for complexity made sense from the perspective of purpose. I like purposeless models. Or equivalently, models that exist before clear purposes do. It makes sense that such models are often more complex. It isn’t that I like complexity for its own sake, but that I like purposeless models, which are often complex. They help me ...23:05
kanzure... appreciate something on its own terms, rather than through the lens of something I want to achieve."23:05
kanzuresome weird nomadic stuff http://www.ribbonfarm.com/2011/07/31/on-being-an-illegible-person/23:05
fennwasn't there a /MEMO command to send messages to offline nicks?23:06
xmjthere is memoserv.23:06
kanzure.tell fenn hello23:06
yoleauxkanzure: I'll pass your message to fenn.23:06
fennoh, i guess it used to be part of chanserv. never would have guessed "memoserv"23:06
yoleaux06:06Z <kanzure> fenn: hello23:06
xmjfenn: more like, part of nickserv -- ages ago23:07
xmjmemoserv has been around for a decade or so23:07
kanzurefenn has been stuck in a timewarp so be forgiving23:07
fennactually i keep falling through time portals23:07
xmjleets do the tiiimewarp agaaaaain23:07
fennbut it feels like a time warp sometimes23:08
kanzurepsychic prison23:09
fenn.tell yashgaroth why did DTRA tell you to stop myostatin research? did they explain their rationale? is it explained somewhere? honestly this seems like something DARPA would be interested in developing, not trying to squash (unless they already secretly have it)23:10
yoleauxfenn: I'll pass your message to yashgaroth.23:10
fenni suck at .tell23:11
fenn"Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from nature." BULLSHIT23:12
fennthe sort of statement made by someone who hasn't studied either technology or nature23:13
kanzurecontinue?23:13
fennwell.. biology is riddled with clever and not so clever hacks23:13
fennrocks don't have any particular function23:13
xmjso is computer science. :p go on23:13
kanzurewell why would ai be distinguishable from .. blah something about turing tests or boxes of ai.23:14
fennoh, if the technology is camouflage, sure23:14
fennbut i think they were putting nature up on a pedestal as a goal toward which technology is inevitably progressing toward23:15
fennanyway photosynthesis is only like 2% efficient23:15
fennthere are so many tradeoffs based on making things out of molecular legos23:16
kanzurei'll go for your non-pedestal claim, but natural selection stuff is pretty useful23:16
fennhey i am on antihistamines, don't expect too much out of me this season23:16
fennyou know what's better than natural selection? artificial selection23:17
kanzurewhat's artificial about it?23:17
* fenn points at the "no philosophy" sign23:17
xmjfenn: who is going to be the last arbiter of artificial selectino?23:18
xmjselection*23:18
fennhuh?23:18
kanzurexmj why should i not kick you23:18
fennyou're saying that because humans are part of nature that "artificial selection" is a subset of nature?23:18
xmjkanzure: you come up with a good reason23:19
fenn(am i being trolled?)23:19
xmjI didn't mean to troll you.23:19
ebowdenDoesn't nature cover all of reality?23:19
kanzureyou are definitely being trolled, given recent xmj statements in this channel23:19
xmjyawn23:19
xmjfenn: i'll let you pass this one without answering, because everyone thinks i'm trolling when i'm not.23:20
fennebowden: words become meaningless if you stare at them too long23:20
ebowdenTo you, yes.23:20
xmjwith natural selection, your survival (or lack thereof) is last arbiter .23:20
ebowdenBut everyone else just keeps talking like normal, and stays in reality.23:21
fennfalse. propagation of your information is the last arbiter23:21
xmjno such thing with artificial selection. it then turns into choice of someone to let you survive or not. who  would that be, in your world?23:22
fennebowden: write the word natural 100 times and see23:22
kanzureis that like one hand clapping23:22
xmjright, what i mean.23:22
kanzurenow write it 1 trillion times23:22
fennxmj: uh, i was talking about aptamers or something23:23
fennnot eugenics23:23
ebowdenAgain, maybe it might detach me from what it means, but it makes absolutely no difference to how scientists and everyone else define the word. Some creationists believe that evolution is a lie, that that the sun revolves around the earth. It does not, however, make it so.23:23
xmjfenn: understood23:24
fennaptamers are very clearly a _technology_ that relies on artificial selection23:24
xmjfenn: "be fertile and procreate" => evidenced winning @ natural selection23:24
kanzuresomehow no philosophy just took a wrong turn23:24
fennebowden: it's called semantic saturation and it's an objectively observed phenomenon. but yes i was talking about the tendency for philosophical conversations to spiral out of control and turn into self congratulatory masturbation23:26
fennsometimes i think this is just a consequence of the limited human output bandwidth23:27
ebowdenFenn, It's also observed for people to start believing in the literal biblical creation, and see evolution as a lie. It is not, however, relevant to what evolution is for people who live in reality.23:28
kanzurethis hurts23:28
kanzurehave you considered hanging out with different people23:28
xmjbrilliant23:29
ebowdenMe, or fenn?23:29
fennnobody "starts believing", they are conditioned by their culture and told what to believe..23:29
ebowdenNo, there are people who change their opinions.23:29
ebowdenEven if they change them to something that is beyond stupid.23:30
fenni lost the plot somewhere in this conversation.. backtracing23:30
xmjfunnily enough often changes in one person's opinion can be explained by changes in the person's social environment's opinion changes.23:30
ebowdenI can see.23:30
fennxmj: even more interesting, changes in one person's opinion can be explained by changes in their diet and bank account23:31
ebowdenAlso, fenn, unless you define "starts believing" as something else, the statement is a little problematic.23:31
ebowdenOh?23:32
fennebowden: it's thermodynamics, memes don't come from nowhere23:32
xmjfenn: oh yes23:33
fennthe information is propagated. there's no spontaneous generation, not in bacteria, not in memetics.23:33
ebowdenPeople's beliefs do sometimes change gradually, yes.23:33
xmjfenn: changes in bank account can turn the hardest socialist into a fullblown capitalist.23:33
xmjfenn: however i'm not sure how nutrition factors into play23:33
ebowdenHowever, where the idea came from is irrelevant to whether they "started believing" it.23:34
fennxmj: speaking from personal experience, your entire worldview can radically change in less than a week by starting a 100% raw diet23:34
kanzuredoes star formation count as spontaneous generation23:34
kanzureoops -generation23:34
fennspontaneous23:35
ebowdenFenn, How exactly is it known that a worldview change wasn't the cause of the diet change?23:36
fennxmj: there's also evidence that poverty directly influences cortisol levels, probably due to decision fatigue (should i get the 79 cent bananas or the 69 cent bananas)23:36
fennebowden: because i keep good records23:36
xmjfenn: i'd be interested now... what's a raw diet and how did your worldview change?23:37
kanzuredon't sell yourself short23:37
ebowdenSo, is this published, pier reviewed data fenn?23:37
kanzuretell them it's overwhelming records23:37
fennuhh. i don't really want to go into this23:37
fenni have better methods now anywya23:37
fenngo read chris kresser23:37
xmjanything specific from him?23:38
fennit's all good. probably most relevant is the methylation stuff (actually chris masterjohn is more relevant here)23:38
ebowdenfenn: I say this because, one can go vegetarian and suddenly be all into animal rights, but in order to convince me the vegetarian diet itself was the cause, you better have some good evidence.23:39
fennebowden: no, this is a case of peer pressure and memetics, not what i'm talking about23:39
fennfor example, i put faith in the paleo diet, but i still think eating dead animals is gross and possibly unethical23:40
fenni was vegan for 6 years but not for ethical reasons23:40
fennblah23:40
ebowdenSo, you don't think the dietary changes in and of themselves, when separated from all else, are a large contributing factor.23:41
ebowdenSo, you don't think the dietary changes in and of themselves, when separated from all else, are a large contributing factor?23:41
fennyou know i wish this stuff weren't so complex, it would be easier to convince people if i didn't have to get them to read 15 articles about biochemistry and molecular neuroscience before my argument made any sense23:42
xmjfenn: what view changed after your going paleo?23:42
fennebowden: i certainly agree that certain dietary choices cause anxiety and us-them thinking23:42
xmjapart from "CARBSBAD mkay"23:42
fennoh, i was never very good at sticking to a paleo diet23:43
xmjhaha23:43
ebowdenWell, that much could be easily empirically demonstrated fenn.23:43
xmji like paleo / keto diets, but right now i'm drinking a very sugared english breakfast tea.23:43
xmji think i know what you mean.23:43
fennright. i have no fucking clue where to get "pastured organ meats"23:43
xmjwhats that?23:44
fennand even if i did, those butter cookies look a whole lot tastier23:44
xmjgrassfed lean beef?23:44
-!- mode/##hplusroadmap [+o kanzure] by ChanServ23:44
fenni have no clue man23:44
-!- mode/##hplusroadmap [+o ParahSailin] by kanzure23:44
xmjah23:44
fennsheep eyeballs i guess23:44
fennanyway the paleo arguments are all way better supported (actually supported) by science23:45
fennbut it was the raw vegan diet that changed my perspective23:45
xmjfenn: do you happen to have a list (or a wiki) listing the science support of paleo?23:46
xmji had a discussion with a vegetarian the other day and ran out of papers :(23:46
fenni'm the wrong person to talk to about this, you should ask jrayhawk when he's on23:46
xmjwill do23:47
fennlook at westonaprice.org cholesterol-and-health.com chriskresser.com23:47
xmj.tell jrayhawk hi, this is mostly  reminder to myself to ask you about scientific articles re: paleo diet.23:47
yoleauxxmj: I'll pass your message to jrayhawk.23:47
fennxmj: have you ever done psychedelic drugs? (feel free to be evasive)23:49
fennalso this is a publically logged channel23:49
fennthe effects of "the master cleanse" (a juice fast) are similar to the effects of a low dose of LSD23:50
xmjhaha23:51
xmjNo.23:51
fenni wish i had a drug to point to that reduces paranoia and neurosis, but that was the effect of the raw food diet23:51
fennanyway, having never done psychedelics, it came as a surprise to subjectively see firsthand that one's worldview is a product of biochemistry23:52
xmjparanoia and neurosis --> benzodiacepines are good for that.23:53
fennand further, that one's biochemistry is a product of one's diet23:53
fennnah, benzodiazepines just make you stupid23:53
xmjthat too, but they *do* reduce paranoia.23:53
fennand death cures all diseases23:53
xmjyou could argue life is a terminal disease.23:54
xmjfenn: have you seen http://autoimmunethyroid.wordpress.com/2008/10/29/gaba-and-diy-for-bipolar-disorder/ ?23:54
ebowdenOh, what's the highest ever recorded working memory?23:54
fennheh yes i have, how did you come across that?23:54
xmjit's not necessarily the most accurate post from a scientific point of view, but i've been able to reproduce it.23:54
ebowdenOh, fenn, what's the highest ever recorded working memory?23:54
* xmj highfives fenn 23:54
fennebowden: i have no idea23:54
xmjfenn: i've dissected that post, and pretty much based my nutrition on that in autumn 2012 and onwards23:55
xmji do eat fish too rarely tho :(23:55
ebowdenBy the way, even when the working memory seems overloaded, functional connectivity still increased incrementally.23:55
fennwhat modern psychiatry really needs is a portable and inexpensive SPECT scanner23:56
xmjwhat would that scanner improve?23:57
fennbad diagnoses based on unscientific evidence23:57
fenn"my kid lashes out at school, he's got ADHD right?"23:57
fennor whatever qualifiees as evidence these days23:57
xmjparents who put their kids on ADHD drugs should in 99% of all cases be shot.23:58
ebowdenFenn, with repeated FMRI neurofeedback, we might not have the problem of task specific strategies, and MIGHT be able to get demonstrable, reliable, and transferable increases in working memory capacity.23:58
xmjhttp://phrack.org/issues/7/3.html23:58
xmjmaybe your kid lashes out because he's bored out in school.23:58
ebowdenEmphasis on MIGHT and TRANSFERABLE.23:59
--- Log closed Sun Apr 20 00:00:17 2014

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