| --- Log opened Mon Apr 28 00:00:40 2014 | ||
| --- Day changed Mon Apr 28 2014 | ||
| fenn | each post has an aimable dish on it then (i'm still not sure how you're getting this six orders of magnitude figure) | 00:00 |
|---|---|---|
| xentrac | I think 60 dBi is usual for a parabolic reflector, and I think getting 60 dBi more of beamforming gain out of a phased array requires 60 dB more array elements | 00:02 |
| xentrac | but I could be off on either of those | 00:02 |
| fenn | it would be more stable and less moving mass if the dish sat on the ground and the antenna moved | 00:04 |
| xentrac | kanzure: http://citeseerx.ist.psu.edu/viewdoc/summary?doi=10.1.1.30.7061 is not the same paper but another paper on the same system from two years later | 00:04 |
| xentrac | on the 512-microphone Huge Microphone Array | 00:04 |
| xentrac | fenn: you could lose less than 60 dBi that way, for sure | 00:05 |
| xentrac | Arecibo works that way, no? | 00:05 |
| fenn | right, but arecibo is 1) not an array and 2) longer wavelengths than i'm talking about | 00:05 |
| xentrac | oh wait, for the same year | 00:06 |
| fenn | .title | 00:06 |
| yoleaux | The Huge Microphone Array (HMA) | 00:06 |
| xentrac | I know it's not an array :) | 00:06 |
| xentrac | but take a look at e.g. | 00:06 |
| xentrac | .g allen telescope array | 00:06 |
| yoleaux | http://www.seti.org/ata | 00:06 |
| fenn | right | 00:06 |
| xentrac | .g allen telescope array dbi dish | 00:06 |
| yoleaux | http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Allen_Telescope_Array | 00:06 |
| fenn | ET was actually hacking into the seti array via a communications satellite | 00:08 |
| fenn | creepy little bugger | 00:08 |
| fenn | i don't have enough intuition about dish arrays to understand how they actually work | 00:10 |
| xentrac | hmm, well, I think you get some amount of directionality (measured in dBi) from the dish | 00:11 |
| xentrac | and then you get more directionality from cross-correlating the signals from all the dishes at varying time delays | 00:11 |
| xentrac | the time delays correspond to the difference in the time at which a planar wavefront coming from a given direction would hit the different antennas | 00:12 |
| xentrac | different planar wavefronts correspond to different directions, which is to say, different points in the sky within the field of view | 00:13 |
| xentrac | the ATA uses an "FX correlator" design, which applies a Fourier transform to the incoming signals before trying to apply the time delays | 00:13 |
| xentrac | apparently this reduces the amount of computation required | 00:13 |
| fenn | oh i think there was a space telescope like what i was suggesting, (SPIRIT?) where they fly in formation and each satellite acts as an element in an interferometric array | 00:17 |
| fenn | if the orbital parameters are precisely known, can't you cancel out the redshift, array position changes, array spacing changes, and angle? (whew0 | 00:19 |
| xentrac | yes, and you can measure them with lasers | 00:20 |
| fenn | so does each spacecraft need to do processing onboard (does that even make sense?) | 00:21 |
| fenn | "gain" is basically throwing away data | 00:22 |
| fenn | a bare wire picks up all the EM from every angle | 00:23 |
| fenn | so i'm still stuck on why a dish is better than wires of equivalent area | 00:23 |
| fenn | (a wire antenna emits a "donut" shaped radiation pattern, does this mean a "donut" shaped antenna emits a linear radiation pattern?) | 00:26 |
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| xentrac | oh, why is a dish directional? | 00:28 |
| xentrac | the dish isn't really the antenna. it's just a passive reflector that focuses the incoming planar wavefront to a point, which may have a real antenna or maybe just a feedhorn | 00:29 |
| xentrac | "gain" is indeed throwing away data | 00:30 |
| fenn | no, not dishes | 00:30 |
| fenn | this information is impossible to google apparently | 00:31 |
| xentrac | if you're wondering why a parabolic dish focuses a planar wavefront to a point, I think Apollonius or Archimedes discovered that | 00:31 |
| fenn | a toroidal transformer containss the magnetic flux in a ring, so maybe it's just a bad antenna | 00:31 |
| xentrac | but it will involve equations ♪ scary music ♪ | 00:31 |
| xentrac | yes, a toroidal transformer is just a bad antenna | 00:32 |
| fenn | okay this is just ridiculous http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:LISA_orbits6.jpg | 00:33 |
| gradstudentbot | Blah, I'm going to quit. | 00:34 |
| fenn | the yellow dot is the sun | 00:34 |
| fenn | apparently lead isn't dense enough so they want to use platinum-gold? | 00:37 |
| fenn | that doesn't even make sense | 00:37 |
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| fenn | it has something to do with "magnetic cleanliness" | 00:40 |
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| fenn | "instantaneous frequency coverage from 0.5 to 11.2 GHz" would be handy in a variety of situations | 00:49 |
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| fenn | the allen telescope array uses gregorian optics. "The design pre-dates the first practical reflecting telescope, the Newtonian telescope" | 01:03 |
| fenn | it's really incredible how much they knew about light in the 17th century | 01:04 |
| xentrac | well, as I said, the relevant property of a parabola was known much earlier | 01:05 |
| fenn | yes yes archimedes setting the boats on fire | 01:05 |
| fenn | basically science took a vacation from 200 AD to 1650 | 01:07 |
| xmj | fenn: not quite | 01:07 |
| fenn | huh. "Roman Empire's Fall is Linked With Gout and Lead Poisoning" | 01:08 |
| fenn | xmj: oh i forgot about the moors | 01:12 |
| xmj | fenn: there were some monks who promoted their own brand of science | 01:13 |
| xmj | thomas aquinus | 01:13 |
| cpopell | Poor Aquinas | 01:14 |
| cpopell | his best known work is his weakest, and he knew it was his weakest | 01:14 |
| fenn | oh whatever, the monks produced nothing of consequence | 01:14 |
| cpopell | uh | 01:15 |
| cpopell | medicine, agriculture | 01:15 |
| fenn | both of which existed long before any monks appeared | 01:15 |
| cpopell | yes, and they advanced them or reproduced it | 01:15 |
| cpopell | that is 'of consequence' | 01:16 |
| fenn | they made some advances in beehive construction and bookbinding | 01:16 |
| cpopell | ever heard of Ockham's Razor? | 01:17 |
| fenn | you mean the most widely misquoted observation ever? | 01:17 |
| cpopell | curvature of light via atmospheric refraction? | 01:17 |
| cpopell | Its misuse does not bely the fact it has a use | 01:17 |
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| cpopell | http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Christian_thinkers_in_science | 01:18 |
| cpopell | Pick a year set. | 01:18 |
| cpopell | you're getting more monks/priests before the 1600s | 01:18 |
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| fenn | we have to skip over 1000 years before anything interesting shows up | 01:21 |
| fenn | okay roger bacon did some stuff | 01:24 |
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| fenn | it seems like bacon was more of a pen-pal with islamic scientists of the time | 01:27 |
| fenn | "Bacon's investigations of the properties of the magnifying glass partly rested on the handed-down legacy of Islamic opticians, mainly Alhazen, who was in his turn influenced by Ibn Sahl's 10th-century legacy in dioptrics" | 01:27 |
| fenn | i can't help but laugh http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:William_of_Ockham_-_Logica_-_1341.jpg | 01:32 |
| blueskin | and now they don't even have toilet paper, let alone glasses | 01:42 |
| fenn | for a second i thought you were talking about monks | 01:43 |
| fenn | what tatooine is real http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tataouine | 01:47 |
| xentrac | they didn't have toilet paper at the time either | 01:49 |
| xentrac | Ibn Battuta rather famously condemned the Chinese as filthy for using toilet paper | 01:49 |
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| jrayhawk | jeepers http://blog.sethroberts.net/2014/04/27/seth/ | 01:49 |
| xentrac | which is what most non-toilet-paper users still think about toilet-paper usrs | 01:49 |
| xentrac | I think there was a famous upper-class Hindu pop music star who stopped performing in public when she realized that most of her listeners used toilet paper | 01:52 |
| fenn | jrayhawk: oh boy, now everyone wants to nitpick his experimentation as if that were the cause | 01:53 |
| fenn | jrayhawk: that sucks. i liked seth's way of thinking | 01:54 |
| jrayhawk | here's hoping for quantifiedautopsy.com | 01:54 |
| fenn | so, reasons people suddenly collapse and die: brain aneurysm, heart attack, ? | 01:57 |
| jrayhawk | immunological insult | 01:58 |
| fenn | what, toxic shock syndrome? | 01:58 |
| jrayhawk | something as simple as a bee sting can kill some people | 01:58 |
| fenn | none of these makes sense | 01:59 |
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| fenn | pocket ultrasound machines, why doesn't everyone have one of these? | 02:45 |
| fenn | let's just make one and say it's for deciding how to carve a turkey or something | 02:45 |
| gradstudentbot | Yeah, that's a really good question. I don't know, but I'll have to look into that. | 02:48 |
| fenn | medical stuff you can do with just a pocket ultrasound: http://whyisamericanhealthcaresoexpensive.blogspot.com/2014/01/ultrasound-in-south-sudan-what-might-it.html | 02:58 |
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| mosasaur | Holographic doctors would still be cheaper. | 03:16 |
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| fenn | mosasaur: all the phased array ultrasound stuff we have been talking about is basically a holographic scanner, so nyah | 03:41 |
| fenn | a film hologram just encodes the relative phases as tiny lines | 03:43 |
| mosasaur | It's still at dr. McCoy level, not an Emergency Medical Hologram. | 03:45 |
| mosasaur | The problem with doctors, lawyers, judges and so on is they think they cannot be automated, but in reality they are next on the list. Nurses and other professions, where either dexterity or human interaction are considered crucial, will probably remain somewhat longer. Not surgeons though, since that is dexterity with a limited scope. | 04:05 |
| fenn | imagining lawyer-bot i just keep seeing bender from futurama wearing one of those english wigs | 04:08 |
| mosasaur | That's fortunate. I am imagining a local computer science professor here. Their motto is: "I don't like fighting, but if there is a fight, I'll gladly join". | 04:12 |
| fenn | an automated legal system is worth fighting for. there's an essay about such things buried in this page somewhere http://www-formal.stanford.edu/jmc/ | 04:14 |
| mosasaur | Is that name ... a coincidence? | 04:16 |
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| fenn | https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_McCarthy_(computer_scientist) | 04:17 |
| fenn | jmc discovered Lisp, an actual discovery of computer science | 04:18 |
| fenn | or rather, the usefulness of S-expressions | 04:18 |
| fenn | In 1982 he seems to have originated the idea of the "space fountain", a type of tower extending into space and kept vertical by the outward force of a stream of pellets propelled from Earth along a sort of conveyor belt which returns the pellets to Earth (payloads would ride the conveyor belt upward). | 04:19 |
| fenn | i forgot about that | 04:19 |
| mosasaur | http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/McCarthyism | 04:20 |
| fenn | yes i know, the other guy who did nothing useful | 04:20 |
| mosasaur | lisp fora seem to have the most bitter infighting | 04:21 |
| mosasaur | But OK. I'll let it go. | 04:21 |
| fenn | he looks just like Ted Cruz, the current fuckwit | 04:21 |
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| fenn | there is probably a lot of treasure buried in his webpage | 04:25 |
| mosasaur | A space fountain seems nice. But wouldn't a vertical raygun ending in the upper atmosphere work better? | 04:29 |
| mosasaur | Assuming we can maintain low atmospheric pressure all the way down the pipe. | 04:30 |
| fenn | what's a raygun | 04:37 |
| fenn | a railgun would put too much acceleration on the occupants | 04:37 |
| fenn | also they're very inefficient, and you can't extract energy from falling cargo | 04:37 |
| mosasaur | Oh right. Now I wonder what a railhawk is. | 04:40 |
| fenn | a launch loop works like a space fountain but without the need for vacuum | 04:41 |
| fenn | or rather, the system has a flexible sheath that maintains vacuum inside | 04:42 |
| mosasaur | If we'd hollow out a 10 KM high mountain, make a tube in it, and put a 10 KM tower on top of it. | 04:42 |
| fenn | also the launch loop is self-launching, or self-inflating, so you don't have to build anything | 04:42 |
| fenn | the general idea is "dynamic compression members" | 04:42 |
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| mosasaur | We'd have 20 KM vertical runway, that should be enough? | 04:43 |
| fenn | you can build a much longer bridge out of things flying back and forth than you can build out of solid hunks of matter | 04:43 |
| mosasaur | Is it like running up an escalator that is going down? | 04:45 |
| fenn | (12km/s)^2/40km = 367 gravities of acceleration (plus or minus a factor of two) | 04:45 |
| fenn | 7.8km/s, 9.4km/s, whatever | 04:47 |
| fenn | oh i guess it makes a difference | 04:47 |
| fenn | 7.8km/s yields "only" 155 gravities | 04:48 |
| mosasaur | I don't exactly understand what you are computing but it seems off. | 04:48 |
| fenn | it probably is | 04:49 |
| fenn | distance = 0.5 acceleration * time^2 | 04:51 |
| mosasaur | If we accelerate at 1 g for 20 KM what is the end speed? | 04:51 |
| mosasaur | assuming humans can tolerate 2 g | 04:52 |
| mosasaur | https://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=If+we+accelerate+at+1+g+for+20+KM+what+is+the+end+speed%3F&dataset= | 04:57 |
| mosasaur | make him understand | 04:57 |
| fenn | i was able to derive this at one time, then i just saved all the formulas on my TI-85 | 04:57 |
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| fenn | .wa 1 g acceleration for 20 KM what is the end velocity | 05:01 |
| yoleaux | Input information: acceleration: 1 g (standard acceleration due to gravity on the surface of the earth); distance: 20 km (kilometers); initial speed: 0 m/s (meters per second); Equation of motion: final speed: 626.3 m/s (meters per second); = 1401 mph (miles per hour); = 2255 km/h (kilometers per hour) | 05:01 |
| mosasaur | vt=a*t | 05:01 |
| mosasaur | great. we need more g's | 05:02 |
| fenn | so apparently v^2 = 2a * x | 05:04 |
| mosasaur | .wa end velocity 9.2 km/s distance 20 km what is the acceleration | 05:05 |
| yoleaux | Input information: final speed: 9.2 km/s (kilometers per second); distance: 20 km (kilometers); initial speed: 0 m/s (meters per second); Equation of motion: acceleration: 2.116 km/s² (kilometers per second squared); = 6942.3 ft/s² (feet per second squared); = 2116 m/s² (meters per second squared) | 05:05 |
| fenn | .wa 2.116 km/s² as acceleration of gravity | 05:06 |
| yoleaux | convert 2.1160 km/s² (kilometers per second squared) to standard accelerations due to gravity on the surface of the earth: 215.77 g (standard accelerations due to gravity on the surface of the earth); Additional conversions: 6942.3 ft/s² (feet per second squared); 83307 in/s² (inches per second squared); 2116 m/s² (meters per second squared); 211600 cm/s² (centimeters per second squared); 7617.6 km/h/s (kilometers per hour … | 05:06 |
| yoleaux | per second) | 05:06 |
| fenn | i like "units" better | 05:07 |
| mosasaur | it seems you were close | 05:08 |
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| fenn | off by a factor of two. either i accounted for that or i didn't, depending whether we were calculating with the runway included or not | 05:09 |
| fenn | either way you would be paste | 05:09 |
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| fenn | when you integrate you divide by the polynomial, and when you go the other direction you multiply | 05:12 |
| mosasaur | .wa end velocity 9.2 km/s acceleration 2 g what is the distance | 05:13 |
| yoleaux | Input information: final speed: 9.2 km/s (kilometers per second); acceleration: 2 g (standard accelerations due to gravity on the surface of the earth); initial speed: 0 m/s (meters per second); Equation of motion: distance: 2157.7 km (kilometers); = 1340.7 miles; = 2.1577×10⁶ meters | 05:13 |
| mosasaur | what? we need a 2000 KM railgun? | 05:13 |
| fenn | that sounds about right | 05:14 |
| fenn | haven't you ever followed the space shuttle launch telemetry? most rocket launches are around 10g and they are still blasting away over the mediterranean | 05:14 |
| fenn | .wa distance cape canaveral to lisbon | 05:16 |
| mosasaur | .wa end velocity 9.2 km/s acceleration 10 g what is the distance | 05:16 |
| yoleaux | Input information: final speed: 9.2 km/s (kilometers per second); acceleration: 10 g (standard accelerations due to gravity on the surface of the earth); initial speed: 0 m/s (meters per second); Equation of motion: distance: 431.54 km (kilometers); = 268.15 miles; = 431540 meters | 05:16 |
| yoleaux | distance: from: Cape Canaveral, Florida, United States; to: Lisbon, Lisboa, Portugal: 6569 km (kilometers); Unit conversions: 4082 miles; 6569 km (kilometers); 6.569×10⁶ meters; 3547 nmi (nautical miles); Direct travel times: aircraft (550 mph): 7 hours 25 minutes; sound: 5 hours 20 minutes; light in fiber: 31 ms (milliseconds); light in vacuum: 22 ms (milliseconds); (assuming constant-speed great-circle path) | 05:16 |
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| fenn | the solid rocket boosters add a lot of acceleration and they fall away over the atlantic, and then the high ISP hydrogen motor takes over (for the shuttle at least) | 05:18 |
| mosasaur | If the rockets choose to go lateral then maybe a space fountain would better point sideways too? | 05:20 |
| fenn | a launch loop would be constant acceleration and would have to be 4000km long (at 2g) | 05:20 |
| fenn | it could do variable acceleration but there's no point | 05:20 |
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| fenn | yes it would go diagonally up and then sideways over the atmosphere and then diagonally back down and then turn around and do it again in the opposite direction | 05:21 |
| fenn | you'd probably want it to make sort of a figure eight so you have access to two orbital inclinations | 05:22 |
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| fenn | 55 and 0 would be nice, since that's the equator and the ISS | 05:22 |
| fenn | 51.6 | 05:23 |
| fenn | .wa distance singapore to quito in km | 05:27 |
| yoleaux | convert distance: from: center of Singapore; to: Quito, Pichincha, Ecuador to kilometers: 19742 km (kilometers); Additional conversions: 12267 miles; 1.974×10⁷ meters; 10660 nmi (nautical miles); Corresponding quantities: Light travel time t in vacuum from t = x/c:: 66 ms (milliseconds); Light travel time t in an optical fiber t = 1.48x/c:: 97 ms (milliseconds) | 05:27 |
| fenn | well that's convenient | 05:28 |
| fenn | just go all the way around in two hops :P | 05:28 |
| mosasaur | How about digging a hole through the center of the earth. Just hop in and get out at the other side. Look ma, no g's ! | 05:31 |
| fenn | the goal is to get to orbit, not the other side of the earth | 05:31 |
| fenn | you could actually get there faster than falling if you accelerated at > 2pi g's (i think) | 05:32 |
| fenn | but if there were a hole through the earth you could also accelerate down into it | 05:33 |
| fenn | more importantly, you could beam light waves through it | 05:33 |
| gradstudentbot | Once you go Markov, you never go Bach. | 05:34 |
| fenn | gradstudentbot: did you hook up with emily howell? | 05:34 |
| gradstudentbot | Hey, let's write a paper about that. | 05:34 |
| mosasaur | .wa radius of earth | 05:35 |
| yoleaux | Earth: average radius: 6367.4447 km (kilometers); Unit conversions: 3956.5467 miles; 6.3674447×10⁶ meters; 3438.1451 nmi (nautical miles); Comparison as radius: ~1.1 × Venus radius (6.0519×10⁶ m) | 05:35 |
| mosasaur | that's about long enough for our railgun | 05:36 |
| mosasaur | Btw, why beam light, can't you just send neutrinos? | 05:38 |
| fenn | it's catching them reliably that's the problem | 05:39 |
| fenn | oh the other thing about shooting things into space, you have to de-circularize your orbit, unless you start out above the atmosphere | 05:40 |
| fenn | i like orbiting tethers to circularize. they can also boost a suborbital trajectory to orbital and circularize at the same time | 05:44 |
| fenn | so suddenly puny things like spaceshipone become an actual path to orbit | 05:44 |
| fenn | the tether has to be 1000km long but this is doable with polyethylene | 05:45 |
| mosasaur | Does it have grapplers at the tips? | 05:48 |
| fenn | yeah | 05:48 |
| fenn | realistically you'd only have one end, and the center would be solar panels | 05:49 |
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| fenn | more panels = more launches | 05:49 |
| fenn | more cable = heavier payloads | 05:49 |
| fenn | er, thicker cable = more payload mass, longer cable = lower g forces | 05:50 |
| fenn | heavier anchor mass (solar panels) = less eccentricity | 05:50 |
| eudoxia | i wonder if matter somehow made from magnetic monopoles could catch neutrinos | 05:51 |
| eudoxia | is neutronium opaque to neutrinos? | 05:51 |
| fenn | .g is neutronium opaque to neutrinos? | 05:52 |
| yoleaux | https://groups.google.com/d/topic/rec.arts.sf.written/yjcyfz-GiV4 | 05:52 |
| fenn | it turns out the neutrinos | 05:56 |
| fenn | interact with protons and electrons far more easily than they do with | 05:56 |
| fenn | neutrons, so the degenerate neutronium, kilo for kilo, is a lousy | 05:56 |
| fenn | neutrino shield. | 05:56 |
| eudoxia | aw | 05:59 |
| fenn | some nuclear reactions emit neutrinos. if you could position the endproducts of those reactions at the appropriate energies and near each other (a big if) the neutrino might be absorbed and cause a reaction to occur | 05:59 |
| fenn | something like a heavy ion collider | 05:59 |
| fenn | deuterium fusion produces helium and also emits neutrons, so maybe a helium collider would also work | 06:00 |
| fenn | i am just bullshitting but nobody really knows | 06:02 |
| mosasaur | How about creating entangled neutrinos and then killing their counterparts just as their other half exits the earth core? | 06:02 |
| fenn | why | 06:04 |
| mosasaur | maybe their entangled half would turn into something more easily captured | 06:05 |
| fenn | pink unicorns make better packet carriers and flying teapots are better meme receptors | 06:05 |
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| mosasaur | Well, do you have a better idea of making a star trek transporter? | 06:06 |
| fenn | the neutrino channel is also very noisy; since every star gives off shit-tons of them, and they pass through everything, it's like sending signals by flashlight during daytime | 06:07 |
| fenn | mosasaur: if you read the technical manual they describe how a transporter works. from what i remember no neutrinos are involved, just neutral particles made up of protons and electrons and neutrons, and a "containment beam" whatever that is | 06:08 |
| fenn | a lot of star trek stuff makes sense and is plausible, but a lot of it is pure BS technobabble | 06:10 |
| mosasaur | It would work a bit like creating highly localized sound spots by creating interference between directed ultrasound beams | 06:10 |
| fenn | well we have optic tweezers so it's not that much of a stretch | 06:11 |
| mosasaur | good. now upgrade that to neutrinos | 06:11 |
| fenn | what! i just established no neutrinos were involved | 06:11 |
| fenn | "we're having trouble getting a transporter lock because of the ionizing radiation, captain" | 06:12 |
| fenn | neutrinos wouldn't care about ionizing radiation | 06:12 |
| mosasaur | they wouldn't, but it would break the entanglement | 06:13 |
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| fenn | no it wouldn't | 06:13 |
| mosasaur | I guess you're right. Any beam that could pass through matter wouldn't care much about ions. | 06:15 |
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| fenn | proton beams and electron beams pass through matter but since they're already traveling relativistically they see everything as "radiation" | 06:17 |
| fenn | neutrinos just don't see anything | 06:18 |
| fenn | a proton beam will eventually hit something and stop | 06:18 |
| fenn | a neutrino is likely to go to the end of the universe | 06:18 |
| mosasaur | the advantage is there will be less nonlinear effects than there are with ultrasound | 06:19 |
| ebowden | I remember 2012, where the premise was that neutrinos were overheating the earth, and about to totes explode it. | 06:21 |
| fenn | yes and according to complexity theory emergent effects will result in consciousness | 06:21 |
| fenn | from the mayan DMT-pocalypse | 06:21 |
| mosasaur | more like this http://nautil.us/issue/12/feedback/ants-swarm-like-brains-think | 06:22 |
| gradstudentbot | That's definitely a Cell paper. | 06:23 |
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| ebowden | LOL: http://www.smbc-comics.com/?id=3340#comic | 06:35 |
| fenn | mosasaur: did you wear a dinosaur costume as a kid? | 07:18 |
| mosasaur | when I was a kid I was a prognathodon | 07:19 |
| mosasaur | https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7658551 | 07:19 |
| mosasaur | .title | 07:20 |
| yoleaux | Ants swarm like brains think | 07:20 |
| mosasaur | Is HN better or just were it links to? | 07:20 |
| fenn | i didn't really get the article. at HN someone pointed out that almost anything can be modeled by ant colonies https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ant_colony_optimization_algorithms | 07:23 |
| fenn | sometimes HN has nothing worth saying though, so who knows | 07:24 |
| fenn | i usually get distracted by the comments instead of RTFA | 07:25 |
| mosasaur | It wouldn't even surprise me if human brains could model things. | 07:25 |
| fenn | i mean modeled as if it were ant colony | 07:26 |
| mosasaur | Sorry, I just couldn't resist. | 07:26 |
| fenn | you're quite the nerd-baiter | 07:26 |
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| mosasaur | The later it gets in the day they worse it becomes. | 07:27 |
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| fenn | please seek therapy, for your own sake and ours | 07:27 |
| mosasaur | I usually try to disjoin before it becomes too bad. | 07:27 |
| ebowden | Nerd-baiting is good if you want to find out interesting things. | 07:28 |
| @kanzure | fenn, turkey vision sounds like an okay plan | 07:30 |
| ebowden | It would be hilarious if someone became a functional expert on something solely by nerd baiting. | 07:30 |
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| xmj | How do you nerd-bait? | 07:52 |
| fenn | it involves typing with one hand | 07:53 |
| fenn | okay my IQ is down 50 points, time for bed | 07:54 |
| mosasaur | night fenn | 07:55 |
| ebowden | Night. | 07:56 |
| mosasaur | I usually become more disinhibited later in the day, I don't know if that means less intelligent unless one counts being right all the time. | 07:56 |
| xmj | mosasaur: that's just the effect of validation | 07:57 |
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| heath | http://www.bls.gov/news.release/empsit.nr0.htm | 08:31 |
| @kanzure | .title | 08:32 |
| yoleaux | Employment Situation Summary | 08:32 |
| heath | for march 2014 | 08:32 |
| heath | http://www.deptofnumbers.com/unemployment/us/ | 08:32 |
| heath | .title | 08:32 |
| yoleaux | US Unemployment Rate and Total Unemployed | 08:32 |
| heath | with graphs | 08:32 |
| heath | and tables | 08:33 |
| heath | lambdajs recap http://blog.brownplt.org/2012/06/04/lambdajs-coq.html | 08:35 |
| heath | ecma technical committee adopts it: http://blog.brownplt.org/2012/04/01/ecma-lambdajs-announcement.html | 08:38 |
| @kanzure | "GE Healthcare's ultrasound business generates $2 billion a year in revenue. ... Prices range from $7,900 for a hand-held ultrasound to $200,000 for its most advanced model. | 08:38 |
| @kanzure | Read more from Journal Sentinel: http://www.jsonline.com/business/ge-sees-strong-future-with-its-ultrasound-business-uj8mn79-190533061.html#ixzz30CCxslc6 | 08:38 |
| @kanzure | fucking jspastespam | 08:38 |
| @kanzure | jsonline.com is on my "kill list" | 08:39 |
| heath | formilization surrounding the dom http://cs.brown.edu/research/plt/dl/domsemantics/domsemantics.pdf | 08:40 |
| @kanzure | haha cost per ultrasound test is $200-$300. p. sure the cost in parts is less than that. | 08:42 |
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| ThomasEgi | i'm pretty sure certifications for everyone and everything drives costs up | 08:46 |
| @kanzure | i don't think GE is certifying the buyers | 08:48 |
| ThomasEgi | but it's a medical device right? | 08:49 |
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| chris_99 | http://hackaday.io/prize/mission | 09:03 |
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| @kanzure | "Furthermore, the use of diagnostic ultrasound for non-medical purposes such as fetal keepsake videos has been discouraged." | 10:25 |
| delinquentme | ultrasound killing babies? | 10:27 |
| @kanzure | "FDA is aware of entrepreneurs that are commercializing ultrasonic imaging of fetuses by making keepsake videos. In some cases, the ultrasound machine may be used for as long as an hour to get a video of the fetus" | 10:27 |
| delinquentme | I'm cirous about the mechanism by which ultrasound apparently helps bones heal faster | 10:28 |
| @kanzure | "RWP is an ultrasonic Phased Array testing system used to inspect wheel set axle for (transversal-oriented) cracks in the maintenance shop" | 10:31 |
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| jrayhawk | at least the ultrasound/autism thing didn't pan out | 10:40 |
| @kanzure | damn. | 10:41 |
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| @kanzure | "Persons who promote, sell or lease ultrasound equipment for making "keepsake" fetal videos should know that FDA views this as an unapproved use of a medical device. In addition, those who subject individuals to ultrasound exposure using a diagnostic ultrasound device (a prescription device) without a physician's order may be in violation of State or local laws or regulations regarding use of a prescription medical device." | 10:49 |
| @kanzure | ah good, so just don't make a prescription device | 10:49 |
| @kanzure | keepsake videos. what a funny idea. | 10:49 |
| @kanzure | "3DBabyVu, Fetal Fotos, Peek-A-Boo Baby, and Womb With a View are popping up in shopping centers across the country." | 10:50 |
| gradstudentbot | Yeah, but his PI wrote his dissertation. | 10:51 |
| @kanzure | "Although it is unclear how the FDA will discourage the nonmedical uses of diagnostic ultrasound equipment, other than by notifying the public, it has asked members of the medical community to notify the agency if they become aware of a keepsake operation. - See more at: http://www.diagnosticimaging.com/articles/keepsake-ultrasound-raises-medical-hackles#sthash.WbQOp7kw.dpuf" | 10:51 |
| @kanzure | arrgghh javascript | 10:51 |
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| @kanzure | "In a sign of its resolve, the FDA embargoed equipment at two Texas operations, Peek-a-Boo Inc. and Baby Images, according to the American Institute of Ultrasound in Medicine. The agency may begin seizing scanners in other states as well. State health officials in Texas, California, New York and Kentucky are also conducting investigations, the AIUM reported." | 10:54 |
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| @kanzure | "Baby Insight" | 10:56 |
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| @kanzure | http://www.hindustantimes.com/india-news/haryana/fda-seizes-42-ultrasound-machines-under-pndt-act/article1-1187138.aspx | 10:59 |
| @kanzure | "A team of the Haryana Food and Drug Administration (FDA) has recovered 42 portable ultrasound machines from different establishments under the Pre-natal Diagnostic Techniques (PNDT) Act apart from sale details of about 60 portable ultrasound machines supplied across the country. In a release, the FDA commissioner, Rakesh Gupta said the team along with the police confiscated nine ultrasound machines from MIE Industrial Area, Bahadurgarh, in ... | 10:59 |
| @kanzure | ... Jhajjar district. Vijay Dandeva, owner of Kospi-care System, Bahadurgarh, was arrested by the police after he reportedly supplied an ultrasound machine to a decoy without proper verification and mandatory registration of the buyer under the PNDT Act." | 10:59 |
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| delinquentme | kanzure, So you might like this | 11:14 |
| delinquentme | getting free context-specific mentoring ... What if I go to a meetup for bio/ chemist kids and just tell them that I'm selling powdered pig organ meat to 3rd world countries | 11:15 |
| delinquentme | anyone who knows about the topic would insta-freak | 11:16 |
| delinquentme | and just like that I can get my ass chewed out + given a list of things I need to check into on said project | 11:16 |
| ParahSailin | pig organ meat | 11:20 |
| delinquentme | http://www.ijoonline.com/article.asp?issn=0019-5413;year=2009;volume=43;issue=2;spage=132;epage=140;aulast=Mundi | 11:20 |
| delinquentme | fracture healing | 11:20 |
| delinquentme | ParahSailin, yeth. | 11:20 |
| delinquentme | we currently use piggy heart valves in humans | 11:21 |
| delinquentme | but clearly making novel superbugs isn't what I'm here to do | 11:21 |
| delinquentme | ParahSailin, do you know anything about gas chromatography mass spectrometry? | 11:22 |
| delinquentme | would I be able to refine down "specific molecules" ? | 11:22 |
| ParahSailin | "refine down" | 11:23 |
| delinquentme | So say that we have a reasonable knowledge of what components of the ECM are actually desireable. Collagen, elastin, fibronectin and laminin . Would GCMS allow me to remove viral components if they were present | 11:24 |
| ParahSailin | haha no | 11:24 |
| ParahSailin | gcms is not for isolating compounds | 11:24 |
| ParahSailin | cursory research would reveal this | 11:25 |
| delinquentme | My default thinking was HPLC ... but wiki tells me that its not wildly specific. And even in looking up compounds on sigma aldrich they're hitting like 97% in their purity with HPLC | 11:25 |
| @kanzure | you want to use something that selectively binds to your target, like an antibody or aptamer | 11:25 |
| delinquentme | wiki told me that GCMS is used specifically as it gives an exact match or whats referred to as " a specific test" | 11:26 |
| ParahSailin | nor is gas chromatography something you use on large molecule that dont really turn into gas | 11:26 |
| delinquentme | kk so I need to re-read the wiki | 11:27 |
| delinquentme | So then the question in selling ECM is really " how can I make the 'cleaning' process somewhat cost effective " | 11:28 |
| ParahSailin | hplc works fine at isolating proteins | 11:29 |
| ParahSailin | not really sure why you want collagen | 11:29 |
| delinquentme | whats a good catch-all term for this kind of cleaning ParahSailin ? | 11:32 |
| delinquentme | And before I shoot off this email ... is it assonine to ask if I can remove viral particles? | 11:32 |
| @kanzure | you need a 10 nm filter to catch all viruses | 11:34 |
| delinquentme | is it that easy? | 11:34 |
| delinquentme | Like thats a commercial product. I could buy that shit | 11:35 |
| delinquentme | and on the terminology | 11:35 |
| delinquentme | what is this shit referred to as? | 11:35 |
| delinquentme | "chemistry" lol | 11:36 |
| gradstudentbot | I think I have ebola. | 11:36 |
| gradstudentbot | Let's have a pset party. | 11:37 |
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| ParahSailin | anyway, use bovine, not pig if you want collagen | 11:44 |
| ParahSailin | and nobody uses hplc to purify collagen | 11:47 |
| ParahSailin | because that will yield stupidly small amounts | 11:47 |
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| ParahSailin | which raises the question of why you dont just want to buy it from the people who purify it in industrial scale for cosmetics | 11:50 |
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| @kanzure | i wonder if alibaba sells whale barf | 12:12 |
| @kanzure | nope | 12:13 |
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| @kanzure | millwrights | 12:41 |
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| @kanzure | "However, the Airfuge has been in production for about 30 years with no changes, the patents have expired, the thing has about 12 parts that cost a total of maybe $30, and they still cost $12000." | 13:05 |
| @kanzure | "uses compressed air to spin the rotor" | 13:06 |
| @kanzure | ".S. Marshals, acting at the request of the Food and Drug Administration, have seized Other-Sonic Generic Ultrasound Transmission Gel located at Pharmaceutical Innovations Inc. in Newark, N.J., after an FDA analysis found that product samples contained dangerous bacteria. The seizure included all lots of the gel product manufactured between June 2011 and December 2011. Until they were seized, the products were held under embargo by the New ... | 13:09 |
| @kanzure | ... Jersey Department of Health and Senior Services at FDA’s request." | 13:09 |
| @kanzure | oh: "The FDA received a report involving 16 surgical patients infected with Pseudomonas aeruginosa. The patients had transesophageal ultrasound procedures, while undergoing heart valve replacement, using Other-Sonic Generic Ultrasound Transmission Gel." | 13:10 |
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| @kanzure | you guys are boring | 14:37 |
| cpopell | I'm working on being less useless. That necessitates IRCing less | 14:39 |
| @kanzure | actually, you can python in irc | 14:39 |
| @kanzure | .py print "yo dawg" | 14:39 |
| yoleaux | yo dawg | 14:39 |
| cpopell | Right now I'm reading, actually | 14:40 |
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| @kanzure | "an instrument, apparatus, implement, machine, contrivance, implant, in vitro reagent, or other similar or related article, including any component part, or accessory, which is ….. intended for use in the diagnosis of disease, or other conditions, or in the cure, mitigation, treatment, or prevention of disease, in man or other animals, or intended to affect the structure or any function of the body of man or other animals and which does not ... | 15:09 |
| @kanzure | ... achieve any of its principal intended purposes through chemical action within or on the body of man or other animals and which is not dependent upon being metabolized for the achievement of any of its principal intended purposes." | 15:10 |
| @kanzure | "There are currently no requirements for FDA pre-market approval of medical devices intended for animal use. Animal medical devices and diagnostic aids are, however, subject to the general provisions of the Act that relate to misbranding and adulteration. For example, an animal medical device is misbranded if the labeling is false or misleading (21 U.S.C. 352(b)). An animal medical device may be considered misbranded if the labeling fails to ... | 15:10 |
| @kanzure | ... bear adequate directions for use by the layperson (21 U.S.C. 352(f)(1)). An animal device is misbranded if it is dangerous to animal or human health when used in the manner prescribed, recommended, or suggested in labeling (21 U.S.C. 352(j)). The FDA relies on veterinarians and other users to report unsafe animal medical devices." | 15:10 |
| @kanzure | "For use on non-human hominids only." | 15:12 |
| @kanzure | "i reject your classification of myself as a human, and prefer this other classification where i have access to neat technology" | 15:13 |
| strangewarp | "you are redefining yourself as an animal, not for legal reasons, but because you recognize that it is inhuman to unethically experiment upon yourself, and the law has merely caused you to reveal this" -- an argument I have encountered | 15:15 |
| @kanzure | experiment? i just want to play music at 2 MHz into my kidneys. | 15:16 |
| strangewarp | heh | 15:16 |
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| cluckj | rejection of own humanity is proof of your humanity | 15:29 |
| eudoxia | to be more than human is to be human #fm2030 #proactive #future | 15:30 |
| @kanzure | well that sounds like a terrible trap | 15:33 |
| FourFire | kanzure, cool, what are you then? | 15:36 |
| FourFire | Homo-sapiens-Futuris? | 15:36 |
| @kanzure | dunno, haven't scanned myself yet | 15:36 |
| FourFire | you just need to make the machine edible | 15:37 |
| FourFire | or a part of it | 15:37 |
| @kanzure | unfortunately they also regulate food | 15:39 |
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| FourFire | strangewarp, heh sounds like the opposite of a story I read recently | 15:48 |
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| jrayhawk | http://news.sciencemag.org/brain-behavior/2014/04/male-scent-may-compromise-biomedical-research jeepers | 16:06 |
| @kanzure | hazard suits for everyone | 16:06 |
| @kanzure | you can often contaminate pcr/dna samples just by touching it | 16:07 |
| jrayhawk | ethanol baths for all | 16:07 |
| @kanzure | "But going forward, he advises, researchers should pay more attention not to just what experiments they’re doing, but also to who’s doing the experiments" | 16:11 |
| @kanzure | most log books keep track of that | 16:11 |
| @kanzure | also, noting that there were males that handled the animals is not enough | 16:12 |
| @kanzure | there should be a human odor assay | 16:12 |
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| @kanzure | also, maybe there was a breakout of terrible deoderant choices by the male members of the lab, like everyone spontaneously switched to axe | 16:13 |
| gradstudentbot | Don't phage me, bro. | 16:13 |
| jrayhawk | the female presence canceling out the male presence would be quite the trick, there | 16:14 |
| jrayhawk | maybe the females all switched to febreeze | 16:14 |
| @kanzure | female effect could be another odor | 16:14 |
| @kanzure | so it's not just males, but both genders | 16:15 |
| @kanzure | paperbot: http://www.nature.com/nmeth/journal/vaop/ncurrent/full/nmeth.2935.html | 16:19 |
| @kanzure | .title | 16:19 |
| paperbot | http://libgen.org/scimag/get.php?doi=10.1038%2Fnmeth.2935 | 16:19 |
| yoleaux | Olfactory exposure to males, including men, causes stress and related analgesia in rodents | 16:19 |
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| @kanzure | http://xkcd.com/1361/ is pretty good (google announcement) | 16:22 |
| eudoxia | i don't get it | 16:24 |
| eudoxia | pls help | 16:24 |
| @kanzure | everyone uses 8.8.8.8 | 16:24 |
| @kanzure | the funny part is the hover text | 16:24 |
| @kanzure | alt="(joke here)" | 16:24 |
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| jrayhawk | sometimes i use 4.2.2.2 | 16:25 |
| eudoxia | ah so the joke is they are shutting down everything except what everyone uses | 16:25 |
| @kanzure | the joke is that most users aren't worried about google shutting things down | 16:26 |
| @kanzure | except when the thing is closer to what they actually use from google | 16:26 |
| gradstudentbot | Still haven't cured cancer. | 16:26 |
| @kanzure | http://www.gwern.net/Google%20shutdowns | 16:26 |
| @kanzure | i wonder if the government should be negotiating with academic publishers | 16:33 |
| @kanzure | brazil looks like it might have a government organization doing most of the negotiation | 16:33 |
| @kanzure | .title http://aoasg.org.au/addressing-the-double-dipping-charge/ | 16:33 |
| yoleaux | Addressing the ‘double dipping’ charge | 16:33 |
| ParahSailin | why is this shit colored at random | 16:33 |
| ParahSailin | is this a mlp thing? | 16:33 |
| @kanzure | he changes his text randomly to infuriate his readers, it's an experiment | 16:34 |
| ParahSailin | success | 16:34 |
| eudoxia | i thought it was some bullshit firefox bug | 16:35 |
| @kanzure | nope, just gwernshit | 16:35 |
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| eudoxia | it could be worse, he could have one of those things that create a twitter/fb share button when you double-click a paragraph | 16:37 |
| sheena | ebowden http://community.seattletimes.nwsource.com/archive/?date=19971026&slug=2568406&fb_source=message | 16:37 |
| @kanzure | and javascripy copy paste spam | 16:37 |
| @kanzure | *javascript | 16:38 |
| eudoxia | yeah, you've been running into that a lot lately | 16:38 |
| @kanzure | sheena: odors effecting rat research, is there a human odor assay or what | 16:38 |
| @kanzure | .title | 16:38 |
| yoleaux | Hog Heaven: Pigs Learn Video Games | 16:38 |
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| sheena | kanzure: huh? | 16:39 |
| @kanzure | earlier link was human odors messing up lab results because the critters smelled men | 16:40 |
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| sheena | i missed it | 16:41 |
| @kanzure | http://news.sciencemag.org/brain-behavior/2014/04/male-scent-may-compromise-biomedical-research or http://www.nature.com/nmeth/journal/vaop/ncurrent/full/nmeth.2935.html | 16:41 |
| paperbot | http://libgen.org/scimag/get.php?doi=10.1038%2Fnmeth.2935 | 16:41 |
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| jrayhawk | http://www.macroevolution.net/ speaking of finding common ground with pigs, this is a fun read | 16:44 |
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| FourFire | "<kanzure> he changes his text randomly to infuriate his readers, it's an experiment" yep | 16:48 |
| FourFire | ParahSailin, as far as I know gwern isn't into MLP btw | 16:49 |
| ParahSailin | he talks about mlp fanfics all the time | 16:49 |
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| FourFire | he does? | 16:50 |
| FourFire | more than me? | 16:50 |
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| FourFire | huh | 16:50 |
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| @kanzure | hm | 16:51 |
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| @kanzure | http://hackaday.com/2013/08/18/tearing-down-an-ultrasound-machine-from-1963/ | 17:16 |
| @kanzure | http://radioinaktivitat.wordpress.com/2013/06/03/siemens-echo-encephalograph-teardown/ | 17:16 |
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| @kanzure | http://3d-babies.com/ does ultrasound of fetus and then 3d prints the baby | 17:18 |
| eudoxia | https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ns9Mbsr3gUQ | 17:18 |
| eudoxia | .title | 17:19 |
| @kanzure | .title | 17:19 |
| yoleaux | Linda Belcher's Porcelain Babies | 17:19 |
| yoleaux | Linda Belcher's Porcelain Babies | 17:19 |
| @kanzure | bah | 17:19 |
| catern | that's great | 17:21 |
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| nsh_ | rly? | 17:25 |
| nsh_ | that's... creepy | 17:25 |
| @kanzure | "we fill in the gaps with images of dead abortion matter" | 17:25 |
| @kanzure | "it's sort of a post-modern art thing" | 17:26 |
| jrayhawk | paperbot's libgen link for that doesn't actually work | 17:26 |
| jrayhawk | is there a big lag-time on actually distributing these things to the libgen network | 17:27 |
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| @kanzure | as far as i know the libgen network does not synchronize with itself unless its operators fetch the latest torrent | 17:31 |
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| @kanzure | most of the time the libgen links don't work for me, they either 404 or there's a server connection error | 17:32 |
| @kanzure | but other people say "yay" so i assume it's working for them | 17:33 |
| @kanzure | i assume my isp had to block it or something | 17:33 |
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| ParahSailin | jrayhawk: its a simple matter of paperbot not doing a HEAD request to the predicted libgen url | 17:37 |
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| jrayhawk | libgen seriously works off of torrents? | 17:40 |
| jrayhawk | that's just horrifying | 17:40 |
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| heath | i think that's to prevent censorship | 17:41 |
| ParahSailin | no it doesnt | 17:41 |
| @kanzure | it used to have torrents | 17:41 |
| ParahSailin | there is mirroring of the main libgen.org by torrents | 17:41 |
| heath | ah | 17:41 |
| gradstudentbot | If I break my arm, do I still have to present tomorrow? | 17:42 |
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| @kanzure | "Demodex is a genus of tiny parasitic mites that live in or near hair follicles of mammals. Around 65 species of Demodex are known." - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demodex | 19:25 |
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| cyberman | like the mange | 20:09 |
| cyberman | demodectic | 20:09 |
| cyberman | i had that once | 20:09 |
| cyberman | it was pbad | 20:09 |
| entelechios | i wash my eyebrows with 99 percent alcohol | 20:09 |
| entelechios | fuck the demodex | 20:09 |
| cyberman | http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mange | 20:10 |
| cyberman | Sarcoptes spp. burrow into skin, while Demodex spp. live in follicles. | 20:11 |
| cyberman | sometimes i still itch | 20:12 |
| gradstudentbot | I forgot to make a control group. | 20:13 |
| fenn | when hunting the wily and cautious cyberian nerd, it helps to have a decoy to lure the nerd in. start by making typing noises on a portable keyboard, this will attract the nerd to your prepared trap. be sure to bait the trap well with a logic puzzle or fact display opportunity. when the nerd approaches the trap, pull the noose and the nerd is yours! | 20:17 |
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| ebowden_ | LOL | 20:19 |
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| @kanzure | that sounds a lot like pokemon | 20:24 |
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| catern | pull the noose? jeese | 20:32 |
| fenn | kanzure: how about an ultrasonic "fog machine" or "flameless incense potpourri machine" that just happens to also display a dopper sonogram or the "incense" | 20:34 |
| fenn | i mean come on, people can sell speed and we can't sell an imaging device? | 20:35 |
| @kanzure | turkey carver sounds okay to me, or doggy vision is also good | 20:41 |
| @kanzure | i've been pondering a set of rapid prototyping equipment for testing etc | 20:41 |
| @kanzure | or, i mean, measurement | 20:41 |
| @kanzure | i think pvdf might be the appropriate material for measurement | 20:42 |
| @kanzure | "Piezoelectric panels made of PVDF are used on the Venetia Burney Student Dust Counter, a scientific instrument of the New Horizons space probe that measures dust density in the outer solar system." | 20:43 |
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| @kanzure | "Patients in Shire trials showed some unexplained nose and gum bleeding. Planned trials by Amgen Inc. and others were halted. Myostatin drugs got an "early blemish," says Dr. LeBrasseur. The new treatments work in a slightly different way. Hopes for Novartis's drug BYM338 are now high. Analysts estimate peak annual sales of $4.9 billion, according to a study compiled by consultancy Defined Health, cited by MorphoSys. J.P. Morgan analysts give ... | 20:55 |
| @kanzure | ... an estimate off $3.4 billion." | 20:55 |
| @kanzure | haha why is jp morgan making up estimates for myostatin inhibitor usage | 20:55 |
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| @kanzure | cpopell: hey let's work a scam, you feed them numbers, then they feed me money | 20:58 |
| cpopell | probably figuring out what the market segmentation will be multiplied by number of people ine ach bin | 20:59 |
| @kanzure | peak annual sales is nowhere near total market saturation i think | 20:59 |
| @kanzure | if that's the extent of analysis that market research firms offer, i'm bored | 21:00 |
| cpopell | looking at total cost of treatment for MD it's between 1-1.5B a year | 21:00 |
| cpopell | don't bother with market research firms. | 21:00 |
| cpopell | it sucks | 21:00 |
| cpopell | there's a reason I'm trying to leave it | 21:00 |
| @kanzure | i assume that "Defined Health" is one of those firms | 21:00 |
| @kanzure | (from the quote) | 21:00 |
| cpopell | Eh, if they do studies they're marginally better | 21:00 |
| @kanzure | what do you mean studies | 21:00 |
| justanotheruser | FDA is the death administration because they prevent life saving drugs from being on the market? | 21:01 |
| cpopell | ie phone campaigns to call people in the focus group, focus groups in general via hospitals, talking to doctors, etc. | 21:01 |
| @kanzure | haha focus groups. wow. okay. | 21:01 |
| cpopell | I was low on the market analysis totem pole, mostly I synthesized and did qual, not quant | 21:01 |
| @kanzure | justanotheruser: it's a much more systemic problem than that | 21:02 |
| @kanzure | justanotheruser: it's not just drugs, but devices and food | 21:02 |
| justanotheruser | kanzure: so what I said but applied to devices And food? | 21:03 |
| @kanzure | not just life saving devices, food, drugs, but also non-life-saving items | 21:04 |
| justanotheruser | I think at the most they should force products to be labeled with their warnings | 21:05 |
| @kanzure | large amounts of regulatory process have the tendency to exceed the costs of testing, manufacturing, or programming of the actual artifacts | 21:05 |
| @kanzure | i mean, the costs of acquiring regulatory approval | 21:06 |
| @kanzure | hell, the fda even forces regulatory approval of medical-related iphone/android apps | 21:07 |
| justanotheruser | What was that website that told you about your health risks based on a DNA sample? | 21:09 |
| @kanzure | 23andme (but there are many others) | 21:09 |
| justanotheruser | The FDA stopped them from making medical claims? | 21:10 |
| @kanzure | i believe they required them to stop displaying information about single nucleotide polymorphisms | 21:10 |
| justanotheruser | I wonder if congress/the president would allow services like them to make claims if they cited scientific papers | 21:11 |
| @kanzure | they did cite papers | 21:12 |
| @kanzure | now everyone just dumps the data from their 23andme results and cross-references against snpedia | 21:12 |
| @kanzure | http://snpedia.com/index.php/SNPedia | 21:12 |
| justanotheruser | Yes, but shouldn't that be sufficient to make medical claims? | 21:12 |
| @kanzure | hah no, the fda is not based on reason | 21:13 |
| justanotheruser | Which is why I'm hoping congress or the president will. I'm guessing you have the same opinion of them too though | 21:16 |
| @kanzure | well, i'm not holding my breath on that front | 21:17 |
| @kanzure | also it doesn't seem to be just about making claims, but also about offering anything to buy in the first place | 21:20 |
| @kanzure | http://qz.com/167178/new-evidence-shows-the-fda-was-wrong-to-halt-23andme-testing/ | 21:21 |
| @kanzure | "In its recent guidance on mobile health applications, the FDA left open the possibility that it will regulate as medical devices information-based products such as questionnaires that evaluate the risk of a heart attack or the plethora of fitness trackers that help people to follow their weight, body temperature, heart rate, sleep patterns and more. Many operate as standalone or companion software for predicting risks including the ... | 21:32 |
| @kanzure | ... likelihood of sleep disorders, seizures or heart attacks. Downloads and installations of these applications are expected to grow from 156 million in 2012 to 248 million in 2017 (ref. 10)." | 21:32 |
| @kanzure | what's next, regulating pedometers? | 21:32 |
| jrayhawk | do pedometers make health claims? | 21:33 |
| @kanzure | yes, they make claims regarding how many steps the body took | 21:33 |
| @kanzure | stepping has been shown to have highly-health-relevant something something | 21:33 |
| @kanzure | steps have been shown to be highly relevant to health | 21:33 |
| jrayhawk | if that is a thing they say, they should probably stop saying it | 21:37 |
| @kanzure | not saying it wont stop the fda from claiming it's a medical device | 21:37 |
| @kanzure | wait, maybe it will | 21:38 |
| @kanzure | "Hardware crypto devices are still "special", as well as non-COTS systems for foreign governments/militaries. Seagate's security dude claimed at RWC this year that NSA had threatened to ITARify their self encrypting devices if they allowed them to be used as engines for encrypting arbitrary data (to me and Perry Metzger, separately). IMO, this is likely bullshit." (rdl) | 21:38 |
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| @kanzure | geeze i hate reading export restriction lists | 21:41 |
| @kanzure | http://www.international.gc.ca/controls-controles/about-a_propos/expor/guide-2011.aspx?lang=eng | 21:41 |
| @kanzure | "Piezoelectric polymers and copolymers, made from vinylidene fluoride (CAS 75-38-7) materials, specified by 1-1.C.9.a., having all of the following: 1. In sheet or film form; and 2. With a thickness exceeding 200 μm;" | 21:41 |
| @kanzure | that's.. fucking PVDF. | 21:41 |
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| kanzure | i wonder if anyone is bothering to just block fda ip addresses | 21:49 |
| kanzure | hrmm who do i know at the fda | 21:50 |
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| fenn | pvdf is export controlled? | 21:52 |
| kanzure | in canada | 21:52 |
| fenn | that's bizarre | 21:52 |
| fenn | thickness exceeding 200um must have some specific context they are paranoid about | 21:53 |
| kanzure | i doubt they even remember the original reasons for listing an item | 21:53 |
| fenn | yeah there's like zero incentive for a government to un-ban something | 21:53 |
| fenn | they make all their money by banning stuff | 21:53 |
| fenn | a lot of the ridiculous ones are related to submarine warfare | 21:54 |
| fenn | it doesn't make it any less ridiculous | 21:54 |
| kanzure | pew pew | 21:54 |
| fenn | towed acoustic hydrophone arrays.. come on | 21:55 |
| superkuh | I've always wanted to make high energy density parallel plate capacitors out of it. | 21:55 |
| superkuh | And by always I mean the last ~3 years. | 21:55 |
| fenn | since the last full exchange of atoms in your body | 21:55 |
| fenn | Processing equipment, specially designed for bottom or bay cable systems, having "user accessible programmability" and time or frequency domain processing and correlation, including spectral analysis, digital filtering and beamforming using Fast Fourier or other transforms or processes; | 21:56 |
| kanzure | everyone should have the right to tow acoustic hydrophone arrays | 21:56 |
| fenn | i agree | 21:56 |
| kanzure | beamforming using fast fourier | 21:56 |
| kanzure | watch out, these fuckers are dangerous | 21:57 |
| fenn | this is a really long export control list | 21:58 |
| gradstudentbot | That's the control group, right? | 21:58 |
| fenn | the export control group | 21:58 |
| kanzure | my next trick will be delinquentmebot | 22:00 |
| fenn | how about a bot that finds interesting stuff related to what you're talking about | 22:00 |
| kanzure | what's the right testing equipment for ultrasound stuff | 22:01 |
| justanotheruser | fenn so a Google not? | 22:01 |
| justanotheruser | *bot | 22:01 |
| fenn | justanotheruser: i wish | 22:01 |
| kanzure | probably just a log bot | 22:01 |
| kanzure | .hplusroadmap PDMS | 22:01 |
| * kanzure pokes yoleaux | 22:01 | |
| kanzure | .swhack PDMS | 22:01 |
| kanzure | huh. | 22:01 |
| yoleaux | No result in past month for "pdms". | 22:01 |
| kanzure | .swhack FDA | 22:01 |
| yoleaux | 2014-04-24 23:16:34 <lysobit> $cock = gmtime(Time::HiRes::gettimeofday()); | 22:01 |
| justanotheruser | Lol | 22:02 |
| kanzure | well that's obviously wrong | 22:02 |
| fenn | processing | 22:02 |
| kanzure | http://www.opencircuits.com/Projects | 22:03 |
| fenn | processing | 22:03 |
| justanotheruser | I think the most useful bot for this channel would be undergradbot | 22:04 |
| kanzure | a giant wiki page is the wrong way to organize open source hardware stuff | 22:05 |
| fenn | 265 mentions of "PDMS" (case insensitive) including 41 links and 28 papers | 22:06 |
| fenn | indexed search would be a lot faster, sheesh | 22:06 |
| kanzure | i should convince david cary to show up in here | 22:07 |
| fenn | get all the davidc's | 22:07 |
| kanzure | what's the other one? | 22:08 |
| fenn | then make them strip to their underwear and fight | 22:08 |
| kanzure | i mean the ieee one | 22:08 |
| fenn | david carne maybe | 22:08 |
| kanzure | this one: http://david.carybros.com/html/ | 22:08 |
| fenn | i was going to say david cary but it seemed too obvious | 22:09 |
| fenn | he built a portable sonar imager? | 22:10 |
| kanzure | i am bad at convincing people into irc | 22:10 |
| kanzure | oh he's from eleitl's transhumantech list. hrm. | 22:11 |
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| fenn | We had a motor with a puck at the bottom. | 22:11 |
| fenn | The puck listened for echoes and sent the echoes up on one set of wires | 22:11 |
| fenn | and out to a sonar display. You could see echoes from fish and the bottom clearly. | 22:11 |
| kanzure | dcary: hello, welcome to the eugen leitl fan club | 22:12 |
| fenn | so davidc is the other one? or are they both dcary? | 22:12 |
| fenn | welcome aboard matey | 22:13 |
| fenn | topic of the day: canadian export control lists, phased array ultrasound, human hybrids | 22:13 |
| fenn | i am just ahead of the big reveal, in which we learn what chimpanzees were crossed with | 22:14 |
| fenn | (i have a good idea what the reveal will turn out to be though) | 22:15 |
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| fenn | "Obviously, if humans were the product of such a cross, then such crosses would, in fact, be possible." | 22:18 |
| fenn | unless the other parent went extinct some time in the last 6 million years | 22:18 |
| gradstudentbot | How many papers do you have published? | 22:19 |
| kanzure | huh, only 8 left in stock http://www.amazon.com/ZAGG-FOLZKFLEXSLV-Zagg-ZAGGkeys-FLEX/dp/B00695OFE2 | 22:19 |
| kanzure | i wonder if i should grab them all | 22:19 |
| fenn | jeez, and people get on my case for buying useless toys | 22:20 |
| dcary | Thanks.B. Bishop invited me. | 22:20 |
| kanzure | i've been keeping it in my pocket for a few months | 22:20 |
| kanzure | well, a year or so | 22:20 |
| kanzure | it is much faster to type on this than on the phone's screen | 22:21 |
| dcary | kanzure: Honestly, this is the first time I've been on IRC in months. Apparently editing wiki has eaten all my IRC time recently. | 22:22 |
| kanzure | your wiki pages look exactly like your old html pages http://david.carybros.com/html/future_history.html | 22:22 |
| fenn | i just just got this micro usb keyboard for my nook, don't know if it will work yet http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B006KS85EE/ | 22:22 |
| kanzure | does it fit in your pocket? | 22:23 |
| kanzure | maybe i should have custom tailored pants for keyboards | 22:23 |
| fenn | no, it's about the size of a nook, plus 50% in the vertical dimension | 22:23 |
| fenn | let me measure | 22:23 |
| dcary | Yes. But the big difference between my huge, poorly-organized old html pages and my huge, poorly-organized new wiki pages is that *you* (or, in principle, other people) can make them better. | 22:24 |
| kanzure | i want hardware to self-organize like software has so that i don't have to update 1000 pages of text | 22:25 |
| kanzure | btw, re: lab equipment related open source hardware, you may be interested in openpcr | 22:25 |
| kanzure | but from an implementation standpoint, you will not be interested in openpcr | 22:25 |
| fenn | the active keyboard surface is 3.25 in by 8 inch and about 5mm thick, and the entire case weighs 290 grams but i'll probably throw most of it away | 22:27 |
| kanzure | you switch between units like i switch between diapers | 22:27 |
| fenn | the idea here is to have a lightweight solar powered laptop | 22:27 |
| fenn | sorry i couldn't bring myself to type 3/16 inch | 22:28 |
| fenn | but the keyboard is exactly 3.25 by 8 | 22:28 |
| kanzure | so is the right way to test ultrasound equipment to just make lots of hydrophones | 22:28 |
| fenn | oh no i read it wrong, it's 3.125 | 22:29 |
| _archels | dcary: what's the URL to your wiki? | 22:31 |
| kanzure | http://www.opencircuits.com/Projects | 22:31 |
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| kanzure | why is there FDA guidance on hydrophones sigh ftp://ftp.sni.technion.ac.il/events/bionorth/20.06.2011/4.pdf | 22:33 |
| _archels | wow, that list looks pretty inclusive | 22:34 |
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| _archels | (in a euphemistic sense, like ambitious) | 22:35 |
| kanzure | "The Holter monitor is named after physicist Norman J. Holter, who invented telemetric cardiac monitoring in 1949.[1] Clinical use started in the early 1960s.[1]" | 22:36 |
| kanzure | geeze more than 10 years | 22:37 |
| fenn | since it's a hybrid black and white mobile device, i christen it the zenook (zedonk = zebra x donkey): http://fennetic.net/irc/zenook_laptop.jpg | 22:38 |
| fenn | also it runs debian and android | 22:38 |
| kanzure | if you remove any more mass you will cease to exist | 22:39 |
| fenn | i was going to remove whatever stiffener panels they use because the solar panels are quite stiff enough already | 22:40 |
| fenn | i kinda hate the faux leather with coarse white stitches | 22:40 |
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| fenn | reload for better picture | 22:43 |
| kanzure | it's worse | 22:43 |
| dcary | 10 years sounds pretty bad, but it's better than the sad story of Ignaz Semmelweis ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ignaz_Semmelweis ). | 22:44 |
| kanzure | "In 1865, Semmelweis was committed to an asylum, where he died at age 47 after being beaten by the guards, only 14 days after he was committed." | 22:45 |
| kanzure | well, at least he didn't die from a physician ignoring his idea? | 22:45 |
| kanzure | "At this crucial stage, Semmelweis himself had published nothing. These and similar misinterpretations would continue to cloud discussions of his work throughout the century.[8]:56" | 22:46 |
| delinquentme | is capillary gel electrophoresis the same as just plain old " gel electrophoresis "? | 22:46 |
| dcary | So ... if Semmelweis had open-sourced everything, release early, release often, etc., maybe things would have turned out differently? | 22:47 |
| kanzure | no, it uses a capillary instead of a bed | 22:47 |
| kanzure | dcary: unlikely, they would have still disliked him, but who cares about being liked | 22:48 |
| kanzure | i wonder if he had the hospital switch to not washing their hands, and then observed an increase/decrease in mortality | 22:49 |
| fenn | tips for getting your scientific theory accepted: try to stay alive. avoid situations in which it is likely that you will be brutally murdered. | 22:50 |
| kanzure | he would have been called a baby murderer for allowing the switch to occur, but again who cares about being liked if it is sufficient evidence | 22:50 |
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| fenn | the babies don't die, only the women | 22:51 |
| kanzure | oh good | 22:51 |
| fenn | and nobody cares about women so it's all right | 22:51 |
| kanzure | i see | 22:51 |
| kanzure | well, that complicates it | 22:51 |
| fenn | dcary: there is a wiki for stuff ostensibly related to this channel but nobody contributes to it either: http://diyhpl.us/wiki/ | 22:54 |
| kanzure | expecting others to contribute is so far not a workable strategy | 22:54 |
| dcary | "A new scientific truth does not triumph by convincing its opponents and making them see the light, but rather because its opponents eventually die, and a new generation grows up that is familiar with it." -- Max Planck | 22:54 |
| fenn | fortunately it is also a git repository so any downstream content can theoretically be merged back in | 22:54 |
| kanzure | fenn: i've noticed that i have a harder time making new pages because of ontological paralysis | 22:55 |
| fenn | tips for getting your scientific theory accepted: brutally murder all your opponents and raise their children as your own | 22:55 |
| kanzure | fenn: and the horror of having 20,000 top-level files | 22:55 |
| fenn | is there a way to use tags with ikiwiki? | 22:56 |
| kanzure | [[]] works | 22:56 |
| fenn | or document clustering (?) | 22:56 |
| fenn | [[]] is just a link | 22:56 |
| kanzure | what sort of tags do you want | 22:56 |
| fenn | i mean content metadata tags, like "genetics" or "nootropics" | 22:57 |
| kanzure | jrayhawk: ping | 22:57 |
| fenn | just coming up with those two made me realize how ridiculous it is to expect anyone to follow a consistent system | 22:57 |
| kanzure | yes.. or myself. | 22:57 |
| fenn | s/anyone/everyone/ | 22:57 |
| fenn | i recently sorted my papers and books directories.. i guess i ended up doing something like k-means (manually) | 22:58 |
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| kanzure | tagging might be okay if you don't have to always re-tag all 20,000 items | 22:59 |
| fenn | you could get your classifier up and running by manually training it on a small tagged dataset | 22:59 |
| fenn | future classifications would use those tags | 22:59 |
| fenn | so the user sees tag names instead of 1 2 3 etc | 22:59 |
| fenn | or you could do natural clustering and manually label each cluster | 23:00 |
| kanzure | another option is a speed-tagging system | 23:01 |
| fenn | it's not like we have a lot of stuff to label though | 23:01 |
| kanzure | where you review a number of items rapidly and you decide if they need to be retagged | 23:01 |
| fenn | isn't that just manual tagging? | 23:01 |
| kanzure | and then some tagging freshness interval | 23:01 |
| kanzure | well, the idea is to not suffer from tag decay | 23:01 |
| fenn | i don't believe in tag decay | 23:01 |
| kanzure | i am okay with tagging each item as i enter them, but eventually my tagging preferences will be shifting | 23:01 |
| fenn | the beauty of the classifier idea is that the data you're classifying doesn't change | 23:02 |
| fenn | also people can come up with their own labels | 23:02 |
| kanzure | sure it does, you add data, that changes the data | 23:02 |
| kanzure | and then you have to check all of the classifications that it did | 23:03 |
| fenn | not with natural clustering | 23:03 |
| kanzure | why | 23:03 |
| fenn | your new data is either a member of an existing cluster, a new cluster, or an outlier | 23:03 |
| kanzure | and if it gets the wrong existing cluster, then i have lots of crap to clean up? | 23:03 |
| fenn | or maybe you are just wrong | 23:04 |
| fenn | often i'll say "hey what's this doing here" and when i investigate it further it actually makes sense | 23:04 |
| fenn | but the title was too clever or something | 23:04 |
| gradstudentbot | That result wasn't repeatable. | 23:05 |
| kanzure | i might accept a separation between my manual tags and the auto tags | 23:05 |
| fenn | you could have tag namespaces, sure | 23:06 |
| fenn | each user will come up with their own ontology anyway | 23:06 |
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| kanzure | what's the tagging db? neo4j? | 23:09 |
| kanzure | or is that the graph one | 23:09 |
| kanzure | mongodb or postgresql's json columns might be most appropriate | 23:10 |
| gradstudentbot | I'm only doing this to get tenure. | 23:10 |
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| kanzure | welcome back | 23:11 |
| fenn | why do you have to drag databases into it | 23:11 |
| fenn | this is part of ikiwiki remember | 23:11 |
| kanzure | because flat files are not good for managing millions of tags? | 23:11 |
| fenn | say i rename a file, i want my tags to stay with the file, so it should be in the file | 23:12 |
| kanzure | and how would you query the tag data? | 23:13 |
| fenn | i dont know exactly how ikiwiki does its static html rendering, but it should update the tag index pages when new pages are added that contain that tag, etc | 23:13 |
| kanzure | ikiwiki recompiles all html content i think on each receive | 23:13 |
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| fenn | all html? | 23:13 |
| kanzure | into html | 23:13 |
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| fenn | i was expressing shock and disbelief | 23:14 |
| kanzure | yeah i might be wrong, it might do dirty rendering | 23:14 |
| fenn | so a thousand users with a thousand pages yields a million tag entries, i dont know if this is a problem or not | 23:15 |
| kanzure | iirc swhack are the people who are supposed to have done magical tagging git wiki stuff | 23:15 |
| fenn | if a user's tag overlaps a public (algorithmically generated) tag, should you maintain that information separately? or just drop the user tag | 23:16 |
| kanzure | it is definitely in their department of esoteric wizardry | 23:16 |
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| fenn | .swhack natural cluster | 23:16 |
| yoleaux | No result in past month for "natural cluster". | 23:16 |
| fenn | .swhack git wiki | 23:16 |
| yoleaux | No result in past month for "git wiki". | 23:16 |
| kanzure | that's only past month, search logs through 2001 | 23:17 |
| dcary | All the wiki engines I know of based on distributed version control engines (including a couple based on git) are listed at http://oddwiki.org/odd/SoftwareBazaar/DistributedWiki . | 23:18 |
| fenn | it's 2014 i shouldn't have to do this | 23:18 |
| kanzure | dcary: so far ikiwiki seems to be the least awful | 23:19 |
| fenn | startup infomercial idea: a laptop, that is also a cutting board! we'll be rich! | 23:19 |
| kanzure | stick to your day job | 23:19 |
| fenn | this is my day job | 23:19 |
| kanzure | would you want to be involved in ultrasound things | 23:20 |
| kanzure | by involved i mean with money | 23:20 |
| fenn | i don't have a particularly good living/workspace situation at the moment | 23:21 |
| kanzure | would you be interested in hijacking nathan's, or squating hacdc | 23:21 |
| kanzure | squatting | 23:21 |
| fenn | hacdc is like a church basement or something | 23:21 |
| kanzure | so it's like the internet archive? | 23:21 |
| fenn | not sure they even have full time access | 23:22 |
| fenn | i've never been there | 23:22 |
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| fenn | i wouldn't mind living in portland | 23:22 |
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| fenn | i keep putting off looking at factor e farm in more detail | 23:22 |
| kanzure | what detail have you not looked at | 23:22 |
| fenn | what their criteria for accepting projects/people is | 23:23 |
| dcary | Yes, I want to be involved in ultrasound things. | 23:23 |
| fenn | dcary: that's what i meant to say | 23:23 |
| kanzure | hm! okay. | 23:23 |
| fenn | i want to shoot melta rays | 23:23 |
| kanzure | distributed hardware development is finnicky | 23:24 |
| kanzure | most people complain about it | 23:24 |
| fenn | there are good reasons why it doesn't work | 23:24 |
| kanzure | (not that i have anything against it) | 23:24 |
| fenn | namely, we don't have yet a) a hardware compiler b) a hardware data format c) a theory of hardware compilers or data formats | 23:24 |
| fenn | the result being you have to ship things around to guarantee interoperability | 23:25 |
| fenn | or huge amounts of manual interface specifications | 23:25 |
| fenn | which are usually wrong anyway | 23:25 |
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| fenn | i have this feeling like i am forgetting something, like something is supposed to happen mid-2014 | 23:27 |
| dcary | We have the first steps in that direction: a) RepRap, b) KiCad, OpenSCAD, etc., c) T-diagrams. | 23:27 |
| kanzure | so if telepresence is supposed to be good and working | 23:27 |
| kanzure | then what about hiring low wage labor to walk around with streaming cameras and manipulate things with their hands for you | 23:27 |
| fenn | telepresence is not good or common | 23:28 |
| fenn | also, if i am understanding this, i am the low wage labor | 23:28 |
| kanzure | hah what | 23:28 |
| kanzure | telepresence doesn't work because you don't have manipulators on the other end that do anything interesting | 23:28 |
| kanzure | why would you be streaming video to yourself if you are the one who wanted the stream? | 23:29 |
| kanzure | i mean.. uh. | 23:29 |
| fenn | i could think of a lot of reasons to do that | 23:29 |
| kanzure | yes but not for the purpose of having someone else tell you what to poke | 23:30 |
| fenn | actually, yes, for that very reason | 23:30 |
| kanzure | debugging? | 23:30 |
| fenn | instead of constantly going back and forth between a data sheet pinout and a circuit board, the video software overlays the pinouts on the video feed | 23:30 |
| kanzure | and who is the person on the other end of the video stream? | 23:30 |
| kanzure | i don't understand | 23:30 |
| kanzure | this seems to be more about glasses and visualization | 23:31 |
| fenn | an openCV instance and a pdf and some fancy OCR software | 23:31 |
| kanzure | but my original comment was about not having to physically go to a remote lab | 23:31 |
| fenn | so, uh, i just drive a remote controlled car around someone's lab and wreak havoc? | 23:32 |
| kanzure | no, a remote controlled person | 23:32 |
| fenn | or i could pester them with a drone | 23:32 |
| * fenn makes a whining mosquito noise | 23:32 | |
| kanzure | see, if we had an actually working robot, you could just have a robot there | 23:32 |
| kanzure | but since nobody has an effective telepresence robot solution, why not just use a person? | 23:32 |
| fenn | i've never seen anything even close to what you are describing | 23:32 |
| kanzure | oh, there's lots of crap in silicon valley | 23:33 |
| fenn | exactly | 23:33 |
| kanzure | little projectors on wheels | 23:33 |
| kanzure | "telepresence!" | 23:33 |
| dcary | Some do technical support and debugging remote hardware with just an audio telephone link to a person at the other end. | 23:33 |
| fenn | robonaut is probably the closest to what you are describing | 23:33 |
| kanzure | no, http://singularityhub.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/03/mebot-telepresence-robot.jpg | 23:33 |
| kanzure | anyway, that's obviously ineffective and useless | 23:33 |
| kanzure | so why not a person? | 23:33 |
| fenn | wtf duck duck go, none of these results contains my search string | 23:35 |
| kanzure | dcary: that's interesting, but i'm curious why not add video | 23:35 |
| kanzure | maybe this was established pre-video | 23:35 |
| kanzure | fenn: in this imaginary scenario, you would be the remote person | 23:35 |
| fenn | thanks to the magic of grep, i bring you this document: http://www-formal.stanford.edu/jmc/future/teleserve.html | 23:36 |
| kanzure | that's a person only on one end | 23:37 |
| fenn | also that movie "sleep seller" (i think) | 23:38 |
| fenn | sleep dealer | 23:39 |
| kanzure | swhack was not conducive tonight | 23:39 |
| kanzure | xentrac: doesn't swag have a magical esoteric tagging/wiki contraption somewhere | 23:39 |
| kanzure | *swhack | 23:39 |
| dcary | Right. By existence proof, since the human at the end of the "technical support hotline" at many companies has been more-or-less successful at debugging remote hardware for decades (!) with only a (2-way) audio connection to a human who pokes at the hardware, therefore it is possible to do the same thing with the same setup after adding video. | 23:40 |
| kanzure | existence proof is favorite proof | 23:41 |
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| xentrac | kanzure: not that I know of | 23:43 |
| kanzure | xentrac: i feel like they aren't holding up their end of the bargain | 23:44 |
| xentrac | ? | 23:44 |
| fenn | i always thought "swhack" was just the noisebridge of freenode | 23:45 |
| xentrac | ? | 23:45 |
| fenn | a noisebridge is a circuit that injects noise into another circuit. it's also a hackerspace. | 23:45 |
| kanzure | swhack is aaronsw's wu tang clan | 23:46 |
| kanzure | killer beez | 23:46 |
| fenn | it was always pretty random, orbiting around web software technologies | 23:46 |
| fenn | in the strange attractor sense | 23:47 |
| kanzure | .wik wu tang clan | 23:47 |
| yoleaux | "The Wu-Tang Clan /ˈwuːtæŋ/ is an American hip hop group from New York City, originally composed of East Coast rappers RZA, GZA, Method Man, Raekwon, Ghostface Killah, Inspectah Deck, U-God, Masta Killa, and the late Ol' Dirty Bastard." — http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wu_Tang_Clan | 23:47 |
| xentrac | here I always thought it was /teiŋ/ | 23:48 |
| kanzure | "They have introduced and launched the careers of affiliated artists and groups, often collectively known as the Wu-Tang Killa Bees,[1] and in 2008, About.com ranked them the No. 1 greatest hip hop group of all time, and stated "No weapon in hip-hop history can rival the chaotic cohesion of the Wu-Tang Clan. The Clan had so many characters, each with his own eccentricities. They were fearless in their approach. There's a good reason no group ... | 23:48 |
| xentrac | so I'm trying to figure out when two-dimensional barrel cams appeared | 23:48 |
| kanzure | ... has been able to successfully recreate their sound. The crew spawned countless loosely associated acts. Their classic albums spawned classic albums."[2] Kris Ex of Rolling Stone called Wu-Tang Clan "the best rap group ever."[3] In 2004, NME hailed them as one of the most influential groups of the last ten years.[4]" | 23:48 |
| xentrac | they clearly were present by 1774 because the Writer is driven by a two-dimensional barrel cam (made of a stack of disc cams) from that date | 23:49 |
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| fenn | "de re mechanica" shows arrays of hammers driven by peg cams, that's pretty close right? | 23:51 |
| xentrac | if the peg cam can slide axially, yes | 23:51 |
| fenn | oh, i dont know what that would do | 23:51 |
| xentrac | but can it? | 23:51 |
| fenn | this was for smashing rocks i think | 23:52 |
| fenn | to even out the torque load on a water wheel, they had to balance the force from the cams on a shaft | 23:52 |
| xentrac | not really the same thing then | 23:53 |
| fenn | i mean rotating them by phase so you end up approximating a helix | 23:53 |
| xentrac | the Writer has a vector font encoded on the barrel cam | 23:53 |
| fenn | links? | 23:53 |
| xentrac | it slides axially to select the character, and then rotates to draw it | 23:53 |
| xentrac | .g jaquet-droz writer | 23:53 |
| yoleaux | http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jaquet-Droz_automata | 23:53 |
| fenn | oh i see, like a jukebox | 23:54 |
| xentrac | hmm, I guess in a way? | 23:54 |
| xentrac | in that the jukebox first selects a disc, and then reproduces that disk by spinning it? | 23:54 |
| fenn | well, except the discs stay on the spindle | 23:54 |
| xentrac | but this is sort of more like an LP record | 23:54 |
| xentrac | where you select the song you want to play by positioning the needle radially | 23:55 |
| fenn | i read about this recently https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Autopen | 23:56 |
| kanzure | there was also the parallelagram that jefferson or franklin used for not having to write the same document twice | 23:56 |
| fenn | pantograph | 23:57 |
| fenn | In 1804, Thomas Jefferson began using the device extensively.[5] This early device was known at the time as a polygraph (an abstracted version of the pantograph) and bears little resemblance to today's autopens in design or operation. | 23:57 |
| fenn | you still have to actually sit down and use the machine though. an autopen can be operated by a secretary | 23:58 |
| fenn | kinda dangerous i think | 23:58 |
| gradstudentbot | You know, I can just do consulting. | 23:59 |
| kanzure | wtf "Confidentiality is extremely important to autopen owners and most will not divulge whether they own one or not" | 23:59 |
| fenn | donald rumsfeld used to send condolence letters signed by autopen to families of soldiers killed in iraq | 23:59 |
| xentrac | the reason I'm interested in this is that it turns out that a barrel cam is sufficient for universal combinational logic | 23:59 |
| fenn | like, "sorry for your loss from the war that i started, but not really" | 23:59 |
| --- Log closed Tue Apr 29 00:00:12 2014 | ||
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