| --- Log opened Tue Apr 29 00:00:12 2014 | ||
| --- Day changed Tue Apr 29 2014 | ||
| kanzure | that's the same shit about vitalism/copy-paste signatures into hellosign.com or hellofax.com | 00:00 |
|---|---|---|
| kanzure | "but if it is data, then it's not really real" | 00:00 |
| kanzure | cam logic is more interesting | 00:00 |
| fenn | but rumsfeld never even looked at the letter, and it was supposed to be an authentic human gesture (but it was not) | 00:00 |
| xentrac | and it's really dramatically more efficient than things like Merkle gates or rod logic | 00:00 |
| xentrac | in terms of parts, not energy consumption | 00:01 |
| kanzure | .g merkle gates | 00:01 |
| yoleaux | http://lists.canonical.org/pipermail/kragen-tol/2010-June/000919.html | 00:01 |
| kanzure | oh come on | 00:01 |
| fenn | lol | 00:01 |
| xentrac | heh | 00:01 |
| fenn | duck duck go fails completely | 00:01 |
| xentrac | .g merkle buckling-spring gates | 00:02 |
| yoleaux | http://lists.canonical.org/pipermail/kragen-tol/2010-June/000919.html | 00:02 |
| fenn | why can't google just offer a non-suck interface | 00:02 |
| xentrac | if you think making a better search engine is so easy why don't you make your own? | 00:02 |
| xentrac | it's really a lot easier than it was when Google got started | 00:03 |
| fenn | they had a better search engine and then made it hard to use (in the name of making it easy to use) | 00:03 |
| kanzure | focus | 00:03 |
| xentrac | do you want to turn on Verbatim? | 00:03 |
| fenn | i want verbatim, i want punctuation, i want html with links that point to the search result | 00:04 |
| fenn | i want youtube addresses that aren't truncated with ellipsis | 00:04 |
| kanzure | i also want a formal apology whenever it can't handle my regex | 00:04 |
| xentrac | this sounds highly achievable, fenn | 00:05 |
| xmj | from perl? | 00:05 |
| fenn | sure regex would be nice, but i understand the reasons for not including it | 00:05 |
| kanzure | regex could be off-loaded to long-term search | 00:05 |
| kanzure | and results can come back in a week for all i care | 00:05 |
| xentrac | RE2 removes some of them; recent work on compressed indexing might remove others | 00:05 |
| xmj | [...] i want html with links that point to the search result | 00:05 |
| xmj | not commercially viable | 00:06 |
| xentrac | xmj: why does a search engine have to be commercially viable? | 00:06 |
| fenn | isnt there a javascript "onclick" that they could use instead of fucking up the link? | 00:06 |
| xentrac | kragen-tol isn't commercially viable either | 00:06 |
| xentrac | but it still exists | 00:06 |
| fenn | xentrac: there was a lot of discussion about microfluidic computers for controlling repraps, particularly with fluidic motors | 00:08 |
| fenn | all that good old analog stuff | 00:08 |
| xentrac | I had no idea, but it makes sense | 00:08 |
| xmj | xentrac: you'll have to pay for infrastructure is why. | 00:08 |
| xentrac | presumably they weren't talking about analog microfluidic computers though, right? | 00:08 |
| fenn | much easier to make rubber than semiconductors | 00:08 |
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| xentrac | because nothing in fluidics is linear and barely anything is even monotonic | 00:09 |
| fenn | you'd want analog circuits in the amplifiers and servo controller | 00:09 |
| gradstudentbot | My project sucks. | 00:09 |
| fenn | in fact, modern CNC machines still use analog tachometers | 00:09 |
| xentrac | note that no current electronic RepRaps have servo controllers! | 00:09 |
| fenn | meh | 00:09 |
| xentrac | I agree about the amplifiers though | 00:10 |
| fenn | really none? | 00:10 |
| xentrac | none that I know of | 00:10 |
| xentrac | certainly the Prusa Mendel in my office doesn't | 00:10 |
| fenn | it's not that hard to put an encoder wheel on a hacked RC servo | 00:10 |
| xentrac | it wasn't that long ago that inkjet printers were also servoless | 00:11 |
| kanzure | there's also various bubble logic things for microfluidics | 00:11 |
| fenn | there was speculation about the price of steppers going up once reprap became popular and the surplus dried up | 00:11 |
| kanzure | by bubble logic i mean microbubbles, not anything that might be called bubble but not be about spherical microbubbles | 00:11 |
| xentrac | current inkjets use these lovely optical servos | 00:11 |
| xentrac | kanzure: right | 00:12 |
| fenn | modern inkjet printers are really impressive | 00:12 |
| fenn | it's like "bam bam bam here's your color printed page, kthxbye" | 00:12 |
| xentrac | yeah. open3dp was doing a great job of turning that impressiveness into 3-D printers last I looked | 00:13 |
| xentrac | which seems like a more promising direction than FDM to me | 00:13 |
| kanzure | they all migrated to #dlp3dprinting or something | 00:13 |
| kanzure | after #lemoncurry died | 00:14 |
| kanzure | oh, sorry, wrong subtopic | 00:14 |
| fenn | why did lemoncurry die? | 00:14 |
| fenn | i am more interested in DLP these days | 00:14 |
| kanzure | wasn't paying attention | 00:14 |
| kanzure | superkuh might have been lurking | 00:14 |
| kanzure | [Merkle 1990]: http://www.zyvex.com/nanotech/mechano.html "Two Types of Mechanical Reversible Logic, by Ralph Merkle" | 00:15 |
| fenn | i thought it fizzled once formlabs kickstarter distracted everyone, and then it was hurry up and wait | 00:15 |
| kanzure | paperbot: http://www.zyvex.com/nanotech/mechano.html | 00:15 |
| paperbot | http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/paperbot/9bfd8601a6f968bfad101d9d2bf9f27c.txt | 00:15 |
| kanzure | xentrac: there are weird things from merkle in https://github.com/kanzure/nanoengineer | 00:15 |
| kanzure | nanoengineer.git is somewhat of a recovery project so be prepared to be disappointed | 00:16 |
| dcary | I have wondered for a long time: What non-transistor parts are sufficient for universal combinational logic? I'm pretty sure pneumatic-actuated pneumatic spool valves are universal. | 00:16 |
| jrayhawk | those are a lot of words and i am not inclined to read them; there is a 'tag' plugin that can be set up such that [[!taglink poop]] will autocreate transient page at tags/poop/ with a rendering of [[!map pages="tagged(tiny)"]] | 00:16 |
| xentrac | dcary: yes, but they don't have long enough cycle lives | 00:16 |
| kanzure | jrayhawk: does ikiwiki recompute all pages when post-receive? | 00:16 |
| jrayhawk | no, it recursively readdirs and stats stuff and checks to see if any of it's new, then builds a dependency tree | 00:17 |
| fenn | jrayhawk: so !map will make an index list of tags? | 00:17 |
| xentrac | dcary: SPST relays work fine too, and these days those run at 60kHz | 00:17 |
| jrayhawk | Yeah. There's also an !inline directive. | 00:17 |
| fenn | or just a list of pages with that tag | 00:17 |
| kanzure | xentrac: https://github.com/kanzure/nanoengineer/tree/master/cad/partlib | 00:18 |
| jrayhawk | [[!map pages="tag/* and ! tag/*/*"]] will list all tags | 00:18 |
| kanzure | for someone who hates programming you sure do remember esoteric wikisyntax | 00:18 |
| kanzure | oh this is probably because freedesktop.org stuff, huh | 00:18 |
| jrayhawk | [[!map pages="tagged(tiny)"]] (or [[!map pages="link(tag/*)"]] ) will render a list of things with that tag | 00:19 |
| fenn | "hates programming other people's requests" | 00:19 |
| jrayhawk | i am looking most of this stuff | 00:19 |
| xentrac | dcary: neon tubes probably also work, and are more reliable than relays or vacuum tubes, but they're probably slower than either one | 00:19 |
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| jrayhawk | because usually ikiwiki thinks about all this stuff for me | 00:19 |
| fenn | jrayhawk: what does the (tiny) mean? | 00:20 |
| xentrac | dcary: anything that can give you "majority rule", as Merkle points out in his paper | 00:20 |
| jrayhawk | er, 'tagged(poop)' | 00:20 |
| fenn | ok | 00:20 |
| jrayhawk | and i meant link(tag/poop) | 00:20 |
| jrayhawk | i am sorta distracted, sorry | 00:20 |
| fenn | that was a good enough explanation for now | 00:20 |
| xentrac | dcary: really I think a bigger challenge has typically been RAM, historically speaking | 00:21 |
| jrayhawk | you may want to poke through https://ikiwiki.info/plugins/ and https://ikiwiki.info/ikiwiki/pagespec/ and https://ikiwiki.info/ikiwiki/directive/ | 00:21 |
| xentrac | dcary: e.g. the LGP-30's combinational logic was noninverting diode-resistor logic, which would have worked fine up into the gigahertz | 00:22 |
| fenn | xentrac: dcary: the selectron tube was a pretty nice way to scale up ram without transistors | 00:23 |
| dcary | xentrac: Really 60 kHz? I was under the impression that people go to great effort to avoid "wearing out" a relay by buzzing it at 200 Hz. | 00:23 |
| xentrac | but its flip-flops were pairs of vacuum tubes with switching times in the microseconds, and its spinning-drum RAM was a lot slower than that | 00:23 |
| fenn | basically it's a CRT monitor with phosphor auto-refresh and screen state readout | 00:23 |
| xentrac | dcary: yeah, reed relays are way up there in the tens of kHz. you do have to worry about contact arcing, but switching <<1kHz is not the only way to solve that | 00:25 |
| xentrac | you can also use capacitors, for example | 00:25 |
| xentrac | fenn: yeah, I know. I'm not totally clear on why core memory was so much better than the Selectron | 00:26 |
| fenn | it was more compact and lower power? | 00:26 |
| fenn | and vibration resistant | 00:27 |
| xentrac | hmm | 00:27 |
| xentrac | not convinced | 00:27 |
| fenn | a lot of this stuff was being developed for ICBM guidance systems | 00:27 |
| xentrac | core didn't get shuffled into an ICBM niche though | 00:27 |
| xentrac | it took over the world | 00:27 |
| xentrac | to the point that even today I occasionally get "core dumps" | 00:28 |
| fenn | "The team was never able to produce a commercially viable form of Selectron before core memory became almost universal" | 00:28 |
| fenn | and then they had DRAM after that(?) | 00:28 |
| xentrac | yeah, DRAM is what killed core | 00:29 |
| xentrac | well no | 00:29 |
| xentrac | SRAM | 00:29 |
| xentrac | but IC SRAM | 00:29 |
| gradstudentbot | I don't know whether I am Turing dreaming that I am a machine, or a machine dreaming that I am Turing! | 00:29 |
| kanzure | http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Selectron_tube | 00:30 |
| fenn | huh core is faster: "Magnetic-Core Storage has two big advantages: (1) greater reliability with a consequent reduction in maintenance time devoted to storage; (2) shorter access time (core access time is 9 microseconds: tube access time is approximately 25 microseconds) thus increasing the speed of computer operation." | 00:30 |
| kanzure | "In the Williams tube, the electron gun at the back of an otherwise typical CRT is used to deposit a series of small patterns representing a 1 or 0 on the phosphor in a grid representing memory locations. To read the display, the beam scanned the tube again, this time set to a voltage very close to that of the secondary emission threshold. The patterns were selected to bias the tube very slightly positive or negative. When the stored static ... | 00:30 |
| kanzure | ... electricity was added to the voltage of the beam, the total voltage either crossed the secondary emission threshold or didn't. If it crossed the threshold, a burst of electrons was released as the dot decayed. This burst was read capacitively on a metal plate placed just in front of the display side of the tube.[4]" | 00:31 |
| xentrac | yep | 00:31 |
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| xentrac | anyway, so, compare any of these numbers | 00:33 |
| xentrac | to the .001μs or so needed for a diode or resistor to settle into a steady state | 00:34 |
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| xentrac | and you'll see that combinational logic was not the speed bottleneck at the time | 00:34 |
| fenn | oh sure let's just skip straight to crossbar resistive ram | 00:35 |
| xentrac | do you mean memristive? | 00:35 |
| fenn | i guess | 00:35 |
| xentrac | memristors turned out not to work | 00:35 |
| fenn | "In 2013, Crossbar introduced a prototype of RRAM as a chip about the size of a postage stamp that can store 1 TB of data." | 00:36 |
| xentrac | the new devices billed as "memristors" have nothing in common | 00:36 |
| xentrac | not familiar with "RRAM" | 00:36 |
| fenn | what do you mean "turned out not to work"? | 00:36 |
| xentrac | I don't know | 00:36 |
| fenn | Stan Williams of HP Labs has also argued that all ReRAM should be considered to be a memristor ... memristor theory in itself is open to question. There is an ongoing discussion whether or not redox-based resistively switching elements (ReRAM) are covered by the current memristor theory. | 00:37 |
| * fenn shrugs helplessly | 00:38 | |
| xentrac | yeah | 00:38 |
| xentrac | night | 00:38 |
| * fenn waves | 00:39 | |
| dcary | A terabyte of data on a single chip? wow. | 00:39 |
| fenn | dcary: delay line storage is pretty cool too | 00:39 |
| fenn | anyway, theoretically all you need to do turing complete computation is two binary switchable elements | 00:40 |
| fenn | this could be spin of atoms or electric circuits or whatever | 00:40 |
| dcary | I hear some early delay lines sent ultrasonic pulses through some liquid -- which brings us back to the ultrasonic stuff we were discussing earlier. | 00:41 |
| kanzure | this irc channel is just a giant phase array | 00:41 |
| fenn | yes, that reminds me of the acoustic interferometer compass | 00:41 |
| fenn | like a laser sagnac interferometer, but using ultrasound in a tube instead of a laser | 00:42 |
| kanzure | fenn: relative feasibility of ultrasound stuff compared to dna synthesis microfluidic stuff? | 00:42 |
| kanzure | i know the answer but i want to confirm | 00:42 |
| fenn | i've never built either, how should i know? | 00:43 |
| dcary | fenn: And some way to transmit the data from one element to the next. Quantum dots are all kinds of switchable, but I hear trying to get one dot to influence some other particular dot is tricky. | 00:43 |
| kanzure | intuition | 00:43 |
| kanzure | fermi estimation | 00:43 |
| kanzure | pick your poison | 00:43 |
| fenn | kanzure: well you don't have to make a thing before you can make another thing, so that's a plus | 00:43 |
| fenn | honestly i'd be surprised if you can't just buy everything and assemble them with the manufacturer's instructions | 00:44 |
| fenn | but i dont know about software, whether it's available or whether it's actually difficult to write or not | 00:44 |
| kanzure | ultrasound software is everywhere | 00:45 |
| fenn | O RLY | 00:45 |
| fenn | i bet 90% of the machines all use the same firmware | 00:45 |
| gradstudentbot | People have tried that, but it doesn't seem to work. | 00:46 |
| kanzure | https://github.com/CSC301H-Fall2013/ultrasound-in-remote-maternal-healthcare | 00:46 |
| fenn | not that it matters | 00:46 |
| kanzure | https://github.com/MByteIO/Ultrasound.IO | 00:46 |
| kanzure | one of the results is https://github.com/kanzure/diyhpluswiki/.../transcranial-ultrasound.mdw... | 00:47 |
| gradstudentbot | Hey, let's write a paper about that. | 00:47 |
| kanzure | dunno what the ellipses are but it's probably me | 00:47 |
| fenn | i don't know any other github.com/kanzure's | 00:47 |
| fenn | what is "pharmaceutical tablets with ultrasound"? | 00:48 |
| kanzure | hrm well these are not the results i was expecting | 00:49 |
| fenn | "problem: Create an off-the-line pill tester that can test pharmaceutical tablets for weight, thickness, and hardness." | 00:49 |
| fenn | this does not sound like an imager | 00:49 |
| kanzure | https://www.assembla.com/spaces/plus/wiki "Plus (Public software Library for UltraSound imaging research) is a software package containing library functions and applications for tracked ultrasound image acquisition, calibration, and processing." | 00:49 |
| kanzure | "Image and pose data acquisition from a wide range of devices (Ultrasonix, BK ultrasound systems, various framegrabbers; Ascension, NDI, Claron, Phidget, CHRobotics pose tracking devices, any device with OpenIGTLink output)" | 00:49 |
| kanzure | "Ultrasound image simulation: B-mode images are generated from multiple moving objects (such as bones, soft tissue, tools)" | 00:50 |
| kanzure | huh "Automatic testing infrastructure, diagnostic tools, simulators for development and testing without having access to hardware devices" | 00:50 |
| kanzure | oh :( "Fully supported on Windows 32 and 64 bit with VS2008, limited testing is performed with VS2010 and with gcc on Linux" | 00:50 |
| fenn | i don't care about their framegrabbers | 00:50 |
| fenn | that software might be useful down the line | 00:52 |
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| fenn | once we have a working imager | 00:52 |
| kanzure | you're right, looks like it doesn't do processing of audio input directly https://www.assembla.com/code/plus/subversion/nodes/3299/trunk/PlusLib/src/DataCollection | 00:52 |
| fenn | i'd expect all that to be done in the firmware on the sensor head | 00:52 |
| fenn | with a DSP | 00:53 |
| fenn | the DSP code is what i'm interested in | 00:53 |
| kanzure | "Texas Instruments' Medical Imaging Demo Application Starter (MIDAS) illustrates the integration of key medical imaging algorithm modules on Texas Instruments (TI) Multicore DSPs and System-on-Chips." | 00:53 |
| kanzure | https://gforge.ti.com/gf/project/med_ultrasound/ | 00:54 |
| gradstudentbot | It's a social construct. | 00:54 |
| kanzure | warez: https://gforge.ti.com/gf/project/med_ultrasound/frs/?action=FrsReleaseBrowse&frs_package_id=267 | 00:54 |
| fenn | now we're talking | 00:54 |
| fenn | 461MB??? | 00:55 |
| kanzure | says the guy who just downloaded 40 GB of wikipedia content | 00:55 |
| fenn | yeah but it's wikipedia | 00:55 |
| kanzure | download to gnusha if you'd like | 00:55 |
| fenn | this is supposed to be code that runs on an embedded chip | 00:55 |
| kanzure | probably other stuff in here | 00:55 |
| fenn | _sdcard.tar.gz sounds like a linux image | 00:56 |
| fenn | this is way better than anything i expected to find | 00:58 |
| dcary | Given an array of ultrasonic transmitters, and an array of ultrasonic receivers -- would techniques previously used for MIMO networks, such as dirty paper coding http://simple.wikipedia.org/wiki/dirty_paper_coding , be useful for ultrasonic imaging? | 00:58 |
| fenn | "All software is licensed under BSD" | 00:59 |
| fenn | does this assume the receiver knows in advance what the pattern of dirt on the paper is? | 01:01 |
| fenn | oh this is talking about multiplexing | 01:02 |
| fenn | in that case, yes, it's very relevant to multiple transducer sonar | 01:03 |
| fenn | simple wikipedia is missing a lot of articles | 01:04 |
| dcary | Right, the receiver doesn't know in advance. | 01:05 |
| fenn | you'd think they would provide a link on the "create page" page to regular english wikipedia | 01:05 |
| fenn | wow there is a lot here on the TI pages | 01:10 |
| dcary | Right. But still, occasionally simple wikipedia has an article that (in my opinion) is significantly better than the corresponding english wikipedia page. I suspect the same is true for any two randomly-selected wikipedia languages. | 01:12 |
| fenn | oh good http://simple.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saturn_V links to http://www.xkcd.com/1133/ | 01:14 |
| dcary | wow, that does look like a lot of useful stuff on the TI pages. | 01:14 |
| fenn | white papers and application notes http://www.ti.com/tool/s2meddus | 01:15 |
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| fenn | i think i need to lay down and rest for a while before scaling this mountain of documents | 01:16 |
| dcary | it's been fun. goodnight, everyone. | 01:18 |
| fenn | hope to see you around dcary | 01:23 |
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| fenn | a legitimate consumer use for ultrasound imaging would be a VR "glovebox" for high impedance tactile/haptic feedback | 01:54 |
| fenn | so there's a box with rubber gloves you stick your hands through, and the device can see your hands and push on them in various patterns with focused ultrasound beams, simulating whatever in the VR environment at a high rate and closed loop | 01:55 |
| fenn | or maybe it's a sphere or an egg or an octahedron | 01:56 |
| fenn | it also has a 3d display "window" on front so you can see what you're feeling | 01:57 |
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| fenn | i'm also interested in free-air haptic ultrasound but i suspect the mechanics will be quite a bit different | 01:58 |
| mosasaur | xmj: It's the numbers, they can't resist them. Nor can they resist the conviction that a primitive overseer who is barely metaconscious but equipped with various chemical sledgehammers can whack people quite unlike them back into shape. | 01:59 |
| xmj | ? | 02:03 |
| mosasaur | ah. xmj: that was still in response to your question about nerd-baiting. | 02:04 |
| fenn | here is a concept i was obsessing about last month: http://fennetic.net/irc/holo_tank.jpg | 02:05 |
| xmj | mosasaur: ah. | 02:10 |
| fenn | mosasaur: that primitive barely metaconscious overseer is called physical reality | 02:16 |
| fenn | i have faith that reality exists | 02:16 |
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| mosasaur | fenn: Over here that physical reality takes the form of psychiatrists that are hiding unobtrusively when one is forced to undergo psychological testing by welfare institutions. Next they try to take your case unbidden or not. One has to fend them off. | 02:21 |
| xmj | meh, pshrinks | 02:30 |
| xmj | they're all nutcases themselves | 02:30 |
| xmj | mosasaur: which institutions _force_ you to undergo psych testing? | 02:30 |
| mosasaur | Well, if you'd rather survive without any money, it's technically not force, but in practice it comes down to the same. | 02:32 |
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| xmj | relevant question is which institutions and for what | 02:39 |
| mosasaur | If you have no money you are assigned an overseer, if you don't like that person you are out of luck. Those who protest against this state of affairs are obviously crazy and must undergo psychological testing, so hidden psychiatrists can go on a wild duck hunt to deligitimize them. I hope it's all clear now. | 02:46 |
| mosasaur | And I'm even one of the lucky ones because at least I can control my own money after they give it to me. | 02:48 |
| mosasaur | This is standard practice for all people who receive welfare here. I'm not a special case or anything, except for questioning the legality of it of course. | 02:51 |
| mosasaur | Here's some further reading for as to why I'd like to avoid unnecessary labeling: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7663857 | 02:53 |
| gradstudentbot | Do you have references for that? | 02:53 |
| mosasaur | Mind you, I don't even think I have that, but just being associated with the label can be dangerous. | 02:54 |
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| xmj | 12:46:21 < mosasaur> If you have no money you are assigned an overseer | 02:54 |
| xmj | you're still missing the important part: by whom (which institution), in which country? | 02:55 |
| mosasaur | dutch welfare, but there's similar in most of europe | 02:56 |
| xmj | ah | 02:56 |
| mosasaur | although I'm not sure in all those countries everyone is assigned a contact person they cannot change | 02:56 |
| xmj | mosasaur: i'm a diagnozed crazy, and you have to be smart about it | 02:57 |
| xmj | i'll do whatever it takes to hide my craziness from people I don't want to show it to. | 02:57 |
| xmj | especially government institutions and government-socialized health care | 02:57 |
| gradstudentbot | Oh man, that's a great scrabble word. I got to write that down. | 03:00 |
| mosasaur | xmj: I can only wonder at your reaction at reading these strange Americans advising people to seek help for their mental illnesses | 03:00 |
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| xmj | mosasaur: ah, well | 03:20 |
| xmj | mosasaur: nothing wrong with seeking help, and in my particular circumstance it improves my life quality to 'just fucking live with it' | 03:20 |
| xmj | without (or with different sorts of) state-approved medication | 03:20 |
| gradstudentbot | Wasn't that a Nature paper? | 03:21 |
| mosasaur | Nothing wrong with seeking help in some cases, I was just curious about the different kind of attitudes about seeking help in the USA versus for example in Europe. | 03:23 |
| xmj | oh, no | 03:25 |
| xmj | that's got nothing to do with US<>EU | 03:25 |
| xmj | that's more of a Me<>Everyone else :-) | 03:25 |
| xmj | mosasaur: i've noticed that the medication i'd be supposed to take makes me and my life boring, predictable and less fun. | 03:25 |
| gradstudentbot | Did you order the carbon nanotubes yet? | 03:26 |
| xmj | which is a sufficient reason for me not to consider this. | 03:26 |
| xmj | gradstudentbot: shut the fuck up | 03:26 |
| gradstudentbot | Do I have to go through the IRB for that? | 03:26 |
| mosasaur | I had a girlfriend on lithium once, it seems she couldn't care less if I visited her or not, though she seemed to appreciate it once I was there. It drove me crazy, but asking her to go back to her life of terror from before seemed cruel so I gave up on her. | 03:33 |
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| fenn | mosasaur: to be clear, my "seek therapy" yesterday was a joke. i don't believe therapy is particularly helpful for most people compared to just talking to another human being | 03:39 |
| fenn | the universe doesn't care if you've "followed the rules" or not; if your biochemistry gets too far out of whack, you die. | 03:41 |
| mosasaur | OK then fenn, I had you figured as somehow being employed in a medical profession. | 03:41 |
| fenn | i've studied psychiatry in an attempt to figure out my own problems | 03:41 |
| mosasaur | By the way, why not use an oculus rift instead of your sensory deprivation tank | 03:42 |
| gradstudentbot | Where did all my bands go? | 03:42 |
| mosasaur | fenn: same here, although it was social psychology and the problem was I was advised not to study physics. | 03:43 |
| fenn | because 1) it's hard to sleep with something strapped to your face, and 2) it doesn't isolate you from sounds in the environment, and 3) <pointer to long diatribe about energy and space efficiency> | 03:43 |
| fenn | vr glasses are obviously much easier to manufacture and transport | 03:45 |
| fenn | i don't really have a good answer | 03:45 |
| fenn | http://www.mangahere.com/manga/sidonia_no_kishi/v01/c001/6.html click | 03:47 |
| mosasaur | quite different from suske&wiske | 03:49 |
| mosasaur | http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spike_and_Suzy | 03:50 |
| fenn | knights of cydonia actually has a plot, unlike "Blame!" | 03:51 |
| fenn | i don't know if this is a good or bad thing | 03:51 |
| mosasaur | My main problem with psychiatry and, to a lesser degree, psychology is I define intelligence as the ability to consciously self-modify. So theoretically a person (more advanced than me) could swallow an LSD trip and just compensate. | 04:00 |
| fenn | sure, coping skills generalize somewhat | 04:01 |
| gradstudentbot | The culture got contaminated. | 04:01 |
| fenn | the culture was a mind virus | 04:01 |
| mosasaur | it's supposed to be a bit more meta-conscious than coping | 04:02 |
| fenn | the problem with LSD is you get too meta, everything becomes super meta | 04:02 |
| mosasaur | not if one knows that and can compensate (theoretically) | 04:03 |
| mosasaur | I mean everyone who read Carlos Castaneda knows at least that | 04:04 |
| fenn | i never read carlos castaneda (nor am i interested) | 04:04 |
| mosasaur | It's probably worse for your mental health than studying psychiatry | 04:05 |
| fenn | oh what a dick, he named his stupid pseudoreligion "tensegrity" | 04:05 |
| mosasaur | I compare it a bit with reading Ayn Rand, although I never read her | 04:06 |
| fenn | another dick, named her stupid pseudoreligion "objectivism" | 04:07 |
| mosasaur | As in crazy things young people read and become enthusiastic about | 04:07 |
| fenn | i like "tensegrity" (architecture, engineering) and "objectivity" (science, empiricism) | 04:07 |
| fenn | but what the hell does selfishness have to do with objectivity? | 04:08 |
| mosasaur | to be honest the tensegrity thing was a late development, something like Blair giving colleges after not being prime minister anymore | 04:09 |
| mosasaur | Doesn't objectivism have the same roots as libertarianism, that greed is good? | 04:11 |
| fenn | my understanding of libertarianism is that people should be left alone if they want to be, not "greed is good" | 04:12 |
| mosasaur | no market driven by desire? | 04:13 |
| fenn | Moby Thesaurus words for "libertarian": free lance, free spirit, free trader, freethinker, freethinking, independent, individualist, isolationist, latitudinarian, liberal, liberalist, liberalistic, libertine, mugwump, neutral, nonpartisan, open-minded, rugged individualist, third force, third world, tolerant, unbigoted | 04:14 |
| mosasaur | In my understanding libertarians want to be left alone so they can compete | 04:14 |
| mosasaur | how is a libertarian supposed to make any money, I mean assuming they're still Americans and money is everything for them | 04:16 |
| fenn | "While some libertarians advocate laissez-faire capitalism and private property rights, such as in land and natural resources, others wish to abolish capitalism and private ownership of the means of production in favor of common or cooperative ownership and management" | 04:16 |
| mosasaur | What's going on over there, have the Russians invaded? | 04:17 |
| fenn | i plead the fifth | 04:17 |
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| delinquentme | 29 Apr1:30pmBryan BishopRadio personality and author | 07:41 |
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| mosasaur | For the love of god, if you have a bright kid, don't allow it to be tested by some stupid quack that will destroy its future | 07:54 |
| gradstudentbot | Dude, you contaminated my experiment. | 07:57 |
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| kanzure | free-air haptic ultrasound wont suffer from unintentional waves? | 08:27 |
| kanzure | "Hi Bryan. Hope your doing well. Thank you for the wonderful work you have done this far on the python wmi wrapper." what a weird combination of words | 08:33 |
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| kanzure | _archels: http://www.neuron.yale.edu/neuron/courses | 08:35 |
| kanzure | http://www.neuron.yale.edu/neuron/static/courses/2008/course.zip | 08:35 |
| kanzure | "I might take you up on your offer to help fund Lymnaea research. The critters are not yet big and numerous enough for that though." | 08:43 |
| kanzure | "Hi Bryan, I am more interested in drugs and chemicals that may have life extension effects. I already have a large list of such on the development wiki for my Live120Plus project and there will be an entire regimen section of the finished project devoted to the optimal dosages and administration of such chemicals. What we have not yet had time for is to do the necessary research to validate the use of these chemicals and drugs and to decide ... | 08:43 |
| kanzure | ... on their optimal use, if at all. For those that we find to be of great value for health and life span extension we plan to develop sources for them for use by the clients of Live120Plus. If we could only get more salaried and invested, scientific literature researchers to join our team, then we could get this and everything else in the Live120Plus project done much more quickly. If anyone is interested please see the summary info at ... | 08:44 |
| kanzure | ... http://live120plus.com " | 08:44 |
| kanzure | eleitl wants http://www.amazon.co.uk/The-Apex-Explorer-Plus-Microscope/dp/B001BS00KK/ | 08:46 |
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| eudoxia | assuming those two paragraphs are from eleitl, i wonder why he's not listed at the who we are page | 08:59 |
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| kanzure | the "Hi Bryan" paragraph is not him | 09:09 |
| eudoxia | ah | 09:09 |
| eudoxia | i assumed the one about snails was him because he's been talking about cryopreserving them, and just assumed the rest were him too | 09:10 |
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| fenn | all beam forming methods produce side lobes (harmonics) but the effects can be minimized with multiple arrays at different angles | 09:21 |
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| fenn | the other idea i had today was to fill the entire pod with water, perhaps with a sheet of loose flexible plastic over your body so you don't get wet but are still free to move around between the two bodies of water | 09:23 |
| fenn | this necessitates wearing some kind of breathing mask unfortunately, but the coupling is much higher | 09:24 |
| chris_99 | talking about some kind of floatation tank? | 09:24 |
| fenn | yes http://fennetic.net/irc/holo_tank.jpg | 09:24 |
| eudoxia | wow i wish i could write intelligibly | 09:25 |
| gnusha | https://secure.diyhpl.us/cgit/diyhpluswiki/commit/?id=30a42206 DavidCary: linkfix, etc. | 09:26 |
| fenn | mosasaur: the other reason not to use an oculus rift is that getting the VR software right is difficult. if you watch carmack's video about rendering latency you begin to understand just how difficult it is to get right | 09:26 |
| _archels | kanzure: Ted Carnevale charges $1600 for participation | 09:27 |
| _archels | I don't think my prof is going to cough that up | 09:27 |
| gradstudentbot | I think there's a biobrick for that. | 09:27 |
| mosasaur | fenn: I agree, and I'm also very disappointed with the project now being appropriated by facebook. However I still think that head tracking combined with audiovisual feedback is more important than tactile stimuli for reality simulations. | 09:29 |
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| _archels | one of our interns might like that course materials zip though, thanks for the link | 09:29 |
| kanzure | _archels: i may be willing to cover that | 09:29 |
| chris_99 | fenn, what's this tank for, sensory deprevation? | 09:30 |
| fenn | mosasaur: i'm less interested in reality simulations than cad interface and robot teleoperation | 09:30 |
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| kanzure | WHY do i have to buy eleitl a microscope? how the heck does he not have one. | 09:31 |
| kanzure | maybe i should tell him to just squint | 09:31 |
| xentrac | maybe you can get him a Foldscope | 09:32 |
| fenn | chris_99: sleep, programming, VR, oxygen modulation, air conditioning, other uses i haven't thought of | 09:32 |
| kanzure | .g foldscope | 09:32 |
| yoleaux | http://www.foldscope.com/ | 09:32 |
| _archels | kanzure: what do you want to get out of it? | 09:32 |
| fenn | he doesn't have a microscope? | 09:33 |
| kanzure | _archels: someone who knows neuron | 09:33 |
| kanzure | _archels: possibly also stalking | 09:33 |
| _archels | haha | 09:33 |
| kanzure | afaict there's not much better than neuron out there | 09:34 |
| fenn | i had a dissection scope, i forget what happened to it (long gone now) | 09:34 |
| kanzure | it was stored under your time travel watch | 09:34 |
| fenn | we had two or three at langton | 09:34 |
| fenn | tristan kept bioluminescent dinoflagellates under his bed, they're pretty cool to watch through the scope | 09:35 |
| kanzure | my biology teacher in highschool would play hours of protozoan microscopy videos on the teleivsion when he didn't want to teach | 09:36 |
| fenn | relevant music video http://youtube.com/watch?v=OlleM0sU7yg | 09:37 |
| kanzure | .title | 09:37 |
| yoleaux | Eskmo - Lands and Bones | 09:37 |
| fenn | oops wait | 09:37 |
| fenn | this one http://youtube.com/watch?v=lCmbwSCYF9o | 09:37 |
| kanzure | .title | 09:37 |
| yoleaux | ESKMO - We Have Invisible Friends | 09:37 |
| kanzure | maybe when i get home or off the phone | 09:38 |
| fenn | watching this on ginkgo + cha thai (thai iced tea) made me realize that the combination was somewhat psychotropic | 09:39 |
| mosasaur | fenn: 3D spatial orientation via stereo auditory and visual cues combined with head tracking trumps all other sensory feedback. Tactile is just a nice to have thing, although balance info would be relatively quite important. | 09:40 |
| kanzure | i think you claim tactile is nice to have because there has never been a very good tactile interface ever | 09:41 |
| kanzure | braille displays do not count for much | 09:41 |
| xentrac | most interfaces are tactile, and they are excellent | 09:44 |
| kanzure | i was thinking in terms of input | 09:45 |
| kanzure | input, feed me input | 09:45 |
| xentrac | I'm somewhat traumatized right now from having a tactile interface on Sunday night with an aggressive drunk | 09:45 |
| mosasaur | it certainly would be important to feel the weight of a thing and to know how it balances in your "hand", also info about its temperature and its surface structure | 09:45 |
| fenn | mosasaur: it's the head tracking that's hard to do right. you need less than 100ms latency or you develop simulator sickness, and less than 50ms latency in a rendering pipeline is extremely difficult to do | 09:45 |
| kanzure | do you want to talk about it? | 09:45 |
| xentrac | when he threatened to hit me in the head with his wine bottle, I took the initiative and smashed it over his head | 09:46 |
| xentrac | instead | 09:46 |
| xentrac | long story short, the police arrested and charged him and not me | 09:46 |
| xentrac | but not before he tactilely interfaced his fist with my temple | 09:47 |
| xentrac | I should probably just post to kragen-journal | 09:47 |
| kanzure | do you think there is damage | 09:47 |
| xentrac | I don't think he hit me hard enough to cause damage. I might have hit him hard enough to cause damage but the medics didn't think so | 09:48 |
| cluckj | kanzure, someone is using your BTC idea: http://bitcoin.mit.edu/announcing-the-mit-bitcoin-project/ | 09:48 |
| fenn | what's the protocol for post-concussion treatment | 09:48 |
| kanzure | im sure it involves holding up fingers :0~ | 09:49 |
| fenn | "walk it off" is the opposite of what i want | 09:49 |
| cluckj | going to the hospital | 09:49 |
| fenn | yeah but what do they do in the hospital | 09:49 |
| cluckj | scan your dome and tell you if you have a concussion | 09:49 |
| fenn | but if you already know you have a concussion then what | 09:49 |
| xentrac | cluckj: what, they give you an MRI to tell if you have a concussion? | 09:50 |
| kanzure | i think they have to give an MRI otherwise they might miss fluid buildup etc | 09:50 |
| xentrac | I hit him hard enough to smash the bottle into small fragments and knock him over sideways | 09:50 |
| xentrac | even though he was already sitting on the ground | 09:50 |
| gradstudentbot | Who took my stethoscope? | 09:50 |
| cluckj | they can probably tell from the symptoms but if you're not presenting, they would probably do an MRI or x-ray | 09:51 |
| xentrac | I took the opportunity to jump on top of him and tactilely interface with him a bit more | 09:51 |
| cluckj | lol | 09:51 |
| kanzure | xentrac, what about automatic design of those automata with echanical software-whatever. i dont know the right words here. but presumably, something something software translation? | 09:52 |
| xentrac | which kind of automata? | 09:52 |
| eudoxia | this channel has public logs, for counsel's sake | 09:52 |
| kanzure | the peg logic | 09:52 |
| kanzure | cam logic? | 09:52 |
| cluckj | do you have any dizziness, blurry vision or nausea after getting hit in the head? | 09:52 |
| xentrac | eudoxia: yeah, I've already told the police all of this in great detail over and over again | 09:52 |
| xentrac | cluckj: no | 09:52 |
| cluckj | you're probably fine | 09:52 |
| xentrac | yeah, I'm more worried about him | 09:53 |
| kanzure | next time on irc m.d. | 09:53 |
| eudoxia | are skull fractures painful | 09:53 |
| kanzure | dr. cluck diagnoses someone as "probably fine" | 09:53 |
| kanzure | loses his license to practice IRC medicine | 09:53 |
| chris_99 | haha | 09:53 |
| cluckj | hahaha | 09:53 |
| eudoxia | lol | 09:53 |
| fenn | disney made some kind of four bar linkage cad program for stop motion stuff | 09:53 |
| xentrac | yeah, although it's not just stopmotion | 09:53 |
| xentrac | you get these very nice naturalistic automaton motions | 09:54 |
| fenn | and disneyland :) | 09:54 |
| xentrac | so are you talking about designing automata to make particular movements with cams? | 09:54 |
| xentrac | there is a lot of cam design software out there | 09:54 |
| kanzure | if i can convert jpeg into an asic, why not into a mechanical something | 09:55 |
| fenn | jpeg2asic.exe lol | 09:55 |
| cluckj | ^ | 09:55 |
| xentrac | but cams are simple enough that you can do that without software | 09:56 |
| xentrac | .g youtube jaquet-droz draughtsman | 09:56 |
| yoleaux | http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MvFnFJp3iw4 | 09:56 |
| fenn | i need that for my command line | 09:56 |
| fenn | google whatever -n 50 | grep -a2 stuff | 09:58 |
| mosasaur | fenn: you probably need a force feedback exoskeleton to go with the oculus | 09:58 |
| kanzure | googlecl | 09:58 |
| xentrac | the Jaquet-Droz Draughtsman is driven by cams generated from an image | 09:58 |
| fenn | the gpu accelerated search engine | 09:58 |
| fenn | mosasaur: i have thought extensively on the subject | 09:59 |
| kanzure | oh sorry, i meant jpeg encoding/decoding | 09:59 |
| kanzure | into an asic | 09:59 |
| kanzure | i was trying to imply software to asic | 09:59 |
| xentrac | oh, heh | 09:59 |
| xentrac | I was trying to figure out why you wanted to represent an image as a lithography mask | 09:59 |
| fenn | mosasaur: vestibular stimulation lets you hack the sense of gravity | 10:00 |
| fenn | https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Galvanic_Vestibular_Stimulation | 10:00 |
| xentrac | RTL-to-cams should be pretty straightforward but I don't think anybody's done it | 10:01 |
| xentrac | and you can generate the RTL from VHDL or Verilog or SystemC or whatever | 10:01 |
| kanzure | i should convince matt campbell to do that | 10:02 |
| xentrac | you need to divide the combinational parts up into pieces that are small enough for the LUTs you have available | 10:03 |
| xentrac | but that's what FPGA synthesis does anyway | 10:03 |
| xentrac | just slightly smaller LUTs | 10:03 |
| kanzure | i showed you the automated gear train synthesis stuff, right? | 10:03 |
| xentrac | yes | 10:03 |
| xentrac | I have read only part of the thesis so far | 10:03 |
| kanzure | i coerced fenn into working in that guy's labb | 10:05 |
| kanzure | lab | 10:05 |
| mosasaur | fenn: this could probably be done with non-invasive ultrasound tweezers tickling the hairs in the semi-circular channels | 10:05 |
| fenn | you also coerced him into paying me to work on my own software, so that was pretty cool | 10:05 |
| kanzure | he might hate me | 10:06 |
| kanzure | haven't figured it out | 10:06 |
| kanzure | probably something about "it is inconvenient for me for you to have dropped out" | 10:06 |
| fenn | i think it was the hosting copyrighted stuff on serveftp.org and getting him in trouble | 10:07 |
| kanzure | i remember he expressed concerns once but i don't remember any trouble | 10:07 |
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| superkuh | mosasaur, you can find more references http://erewhon.superkuh.com/library/Neuroscience/Vestibular%20Stimulation/ . And there once was a company hoping to commercialize the tech for games but they never shipped: https://web.archive.org/web/19990428003914/http://www.vm3.com/ , http://old.post-gazette.com/businessnews/19980823games4.asp | 10:08 |
| fenn | superkuh: is it possible to simulate gravity in all directions (up down left right front back) or only bias left-right? | 10:10 |
| mosasaur | hi, nice to see you speaking up here superkuh | 10:10 |
| superkuh | It is theoretically possible for all directions. The electrical biases and combinations are in some of those docs. I only ever managed left-right with my experiments. | 10:10 |
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| fenn | i have this idea for exoskeletons in general, that your proprioception system doesn't care about absolute movement but rather relative movement, so you don't actually need to swing your arm a full 180 degrees (and all the required mechanics and free space to do that) just 90 degrees or maybe even less | 10:15 |
| fenn | the wh40k "dreadnought" has the pilot in a fetal position; that's probably a bit extreme, but it's hard to deal with a full range of motion | 10:16 |
| fenn | you want something like the nasa gravity couch pose: knees and hips bent, arms floating in front of the chest | 10:17 |
| mosasaur | superkuh: that last link at the http://old.post-gazette.com made it most clear to me what was going on. Now I am wondering if it can be combined with transcranial direct current stimulation and binaural beats for brainwave entrainment. | 10:19 |
| fenn | http://cache.relaxtheback.com/media/content/images/Zero_Gravity_image.jpg | 10:20 |
| superkuh | Bleh. "entrainment" | 10:20 |
| superkuh | I do not believe in binaural beats or entrainment. | 10:20 |
| superkuh | I don't think TMS would be useful in this context. | 10:20 |
| fenn | it is technically tDCS | 10:21 |
| mosasaur | not magnetic, but direct current, because that other device already has that available | 10:21 |
| superkuh | Oh. I misread. Sorry. | 10:22 |
| fenn | i'm impressed that article from the post-gazette is still online, 16 years later | 10:23 |
| mosasaur | still, now we have ultrasonic tweezers ... | 10:25 |
| fenn | yeah it might be feasible but GVS is a lot simpler | 10:28 |
| fenn | i'd be concerned about killing the ear cells, and unintended vibrations in the cochlea | 10:29 |
| mosasaur | we'd project a 3d sonar image over the whole volume and kill a lot of birds with that, like balance and auditory simultaneously | 10:32 |
| fenn | "The pilot himself survives only as a tightly curled and shrivelled organic component deep inside the Dreadnought, which is at once his reborn body and his tomb. Sustained and kept alive within the sarcophagus, the link between his physical being and the Dreadnought’s systems is absolute and for the remainder of his life." | 10:33 |
| fenn | who comes up with this stuff | 10:33 |
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| mosasaur | those vibrations in the cochlea are feature, not a bug. It would be like hearing sound when there is no sound, only ultrasound tickling the hairs, the same goes for the hemi circular channels. and all of this in a single continuously update sonar image. Do you need more marketing talk | 10:39 |
| * mosasaur notices it's probably time to disconnect | 10:41 | |
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| _archels | superkuh: hmm, were you at one time working on a simulation environment for artificial neural networks? | 11:13 |
| kanzure | /************MAYBE WE WILL NEED STUFF*****************/ | 11:20 |
| kanzure | char ackt[]= "RDSP/1.0 200 OK\nCseq= 123\nSession: 4\nPL: 23\nreason 434\nduration: 100\nrate: 200\ntransport: RdsP/1 1.2.3.4 55\npname: a_test\npvalue: werwetergertertywerytwr4++3434\n \n"; | 11:21 |
| chris_99 | https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/903107259/scio-your-sixth-sense-a-pocket-molecular-sensor-fo | 11:23 |
| chris_99 | i'm curious what ir sensor they're using | 11:23 |
| kanzure | userdata/InputData/TI_Carotid_tissdata_512x256x69.bin | 11:24 |
| kanzure | ti.sdo.ce.examples.apps.audio1_copy.sync; 1, 0, 0,135; 7-27-2010 22:04:51; /db/atree/library/trees/ce/ce-q08x/src/ | 11:25 |
| kanzure | hmm midas_usound_demo4_rel/miDAS/ultrasound/demo3/backend/src/process/UsAcquire.c and UsProcess.c | 11:37 |
| kanzure | http://processors.wiki.ti.com/index.php/MIDAS_Ultrasound_v4.0_Demo | 11:40 |
| kanzure | "The sample raw data used in the demo is from a scan of a Carotid Artery, consisting of 69 frames of post-RF-demodulated data. Each frame worth of input data includes 256 scanlines, 512 samples/scanline of B-mode, and 48 scanlines, 256 samples/scanline, 10 ensembles of doppler (color flow) data. This input data is initially stored on the NFS/SDcard on OMAP3530. During initialization, all 69 frames worth of input data is sent to the C6678 ... | 11:41 |
| kanzure | ... which stores this in DDR. When processing starts, the input data is fed in at a set acquisition interval rate (set at 20 fps in this demo but can be customized), which is then processed through the BPU, DPU (on C6678) and SCU (on OMAP3530's DSP) modules as shown above, and the final scan-converted image is displayed via OMAP3530's DVI output onto an external 7-inch LCD screen." | 11:41 |
| gradstudentbot | So, I'll let you have my reagents when I'm done with my project. | 11:42 |
| kanzure | this claims the algorithm is "bilinear interpolation" http://www.ti.com/lit/an/sprab32/sprab32.pdf | 11:46 |
| chris_99 | nmz787, are you about per chance? | 11:52 |
| gradstudentbot | Yeah, it's definitely impractical and fairly non-elegant at the same time. | 11:54 |
| kanzure | here's an okay overview http://www.ti.com/lit/wp/sprabo0/sprabo0.pdf | 11:55 |
| kanzure | even better overview: http://www.ti.com/lit/wp/sprab12/sprab12.pdf | 11:57 |
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| kanzure | "The manufacturing of current ultrasound transducers is quite time consuming and expensive for several reasons. Many layers are glued together, which means that each surface must be properly prepared. Also, each glue interface must not contain air voids because they tend to scatter the sound waves as they propagate through each layer. Finally, all of the signals must be connected to transducer cable that connects to the main ultrasound ... | 12:00 |
| kanzure | ... system. Great care is taken to impedance match all of the piezoelectric element/wire pairs to ensure that all of the A/D converters see the same load. To avoid these issues, alternate transducer structures using capactive micro-machined ultrasound transducers (CMUTs) is an active area of research [33]." | 12:00 |
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| kanzure | hah why did eric hunting buy a mac pro? | 12:28 |
| kanzure | http://www.nist.gov/el/isd/robocrane2.cfm | 12:29 |
| kanzure | "The Lunar Rover concept is also very interesting. It was based on a deployable 6 point gantry with little tread drive units on the bottom and flexible corners making a three-legged robot. The RoboCrane platform was suspended within this, its tilting ability used to maintain level position regardless of the tilt of the gantry." | 12:29 |
| kanzure | http://www.nist.gov/el/isd/lunar-rover.cfm | 12:29 |
| kanzure | "The Intelligent Systems Division of the National Institute of Standards and Technology (NIST) experimented with a variety of applications for the NIST RoboCrane. The RoboCrane design utilizes the basic idea of the Stewart Platform parallel link manipulator. The unique feature of the NIST approach is the use of cables as the parallel links and the use of winches as the actuators." | 12:31 |
| kanzure | paperbot: http://www.nature.com/ncomms/2014/140429/ncomms4742/full/ncomms4742.html | 12:33 |
| kanzure | .title | 12:33 |
| yoleaux | Mutation rate plasticity in rifampicin resistance depends on Escherichia coli cell–cell interactions | 12:34 |
| paperbot | http://libgen.org/scimag/get.php?doi=10.1038%2Fncomms4742 | 12:34 |
| jrayhawk | kanzure: where's this rdsp thing documented | 12:55 |
| jrayhawk | i am vaguely familiar with rtc, rtp, rtsp, rtmp, and zrtp, but not rdsp | 12:56 |
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| kanzure | from here https://gforge.ti.com/gf/download/frsrelease/753/5292/midas_usound_demo4_rel.zip | 12:56 |
| kanzure | context is https://gforge.ti.com/gf/project/med_ultrasound/ | 12:56 |
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| kanzure | huh "Very high-frequency ultrasound (VHFU;> 35 megahertz [MHz]) allows imaging | 13:05 |
| kanzure | of anterior segment structures of the eye with a resolution of less than 40 μm." | 13:05 |
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| kanzure | the manufacturing process (section 4) is long: http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/ultrasound/Flexible%20two-dimensional%20ultrasonic%20transducer%20array:%20design,%20fabrication%20and%20characterization.pdf | 13:39 |
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| jrayhawk | https://twitter.com/PPR98/status/460457141724147713/photo/1 interesting investment incentives | 14:38 |
| kanzure | spacex should do the same deal | 14:39 |
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| kanzure | http://www.theawl.com/2014/04/internet-terror-cell-neutralized | 15:19 |
| eudoxia | i thought hplusroadmap had made the news again | 15:22 |
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| kanzure | i can't figure out where i learned about piezo/PZT dicing | 15:28 |
| kanzure | apparently it's all piezo-ceramic semiconductor-style photolithography and etching these days | 15:30 |
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| kanzure | "Liquid Metal as Connecting or Functional Recovery Channel for the Transected Sciatic Nerve" | 15:44 |
| kanzure | paperbot: http://arxiv.org/abs/1404.5931 | 15:44 |
| paperbot | http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/paperbot/Liquid%20Metal%20as%20Connecting%20or%20Functional%20Recovery%20Channel%20for%20the%20Transected%20Sciatic%20Nerve.pdf | 15:44 |
| jrayhawk | holy shit fyad died? | 15:47 |
| strangewarp | FYAD is dead --Nietzsche | 15:50 |
| cpopell | jrayhawk: GBS 2.0 was basically FYAD for a while | 15:55 |
| jrayhawk | the zen self-trolling ethos was probably the value worth saving, and i suppose that's already been exported everywhere | 15:58 |
| jrayhawk | 'we're sending corsair to an organic farm upstate, he'll be happy there' haha | 15:58 |
| cluckj | RIP FYAD | 15:58 |
| cpopell | I don't really go there anymore except to skim MMOHMO and ADTRW | 15:58 |
| eudoxia | the only FYAD i knew was the OIFY | 15:59 |
| cpopell | the collapse of LF, and then later deletion of LF, made things uninhabitable for a while | 15:59 |
| eudoxia | #hplusroadmapkidzkorner | 15:59 |
| gradstudentbot | Grant submitted. | 15:59 |
| jrayhawk | The collapse of LF was inevitable after the 2008 election. | 15:59 |
| jrayhawk | The only thing that made things coherent was RON PAUL | 16:00 |
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| cpopell | jrayhawk: I meant more it becoming radical leftists that make strangewarp look like a conservative | 16:00 |
| jrayhawk | Yeah, Ron Paul really brought everyone together. | 16:01 |
| strangewarp | Lowtax did say he wanted to "de-Tumblrfy" SA, in a quip on Twitter, anyway. | 16:01 |
| kanzure | i underestimated the infiltration rate of goons in here | 16:02 |
| strangewarp | cpopell: I doubt most possible people could make me look conservative in comparison. | 16:02 |
| cluckj | ex-goons | 16:02 |
| cpopell | strangewarp: there were unironic Maoist third-worldists | 16:02 |
| jrayhawk | what's the name of the law that says "any public forum not specifically billing itself conservative will become increasingly liberal" | 16:02 |
| strangewarp | kanzure: I haven't gooned since '05, and even then, I was just an IRCer without a forum account | 16:03 |
| cpopell | strangewarp: and at least once (the other time was BYOB) someone threatened the president and got the SS called to Lowtax's house | 16:03 |
| jrayhawk | the neoreo concept of the "leftist singularity" is pretty good even if neoreos are crazy | 16:03 |
| strangewarp | cpopell: MTW is understandable in the current geopolitical context, anyway | 16:03 |
| kanzure | strangewarp: gooning works just like bitcoin mining, so a month in 2004 counts for more than a year in 2010 | 16:03 |
| cluckj | my only current goonery is torrents | 16:03 |
| cpopell | jrayhawk: this also hearks the death of any political forum | 16:03 |
| strangewarp | kanzure: ha, well, I was in with the SA Furs, so that probably throws it out the window | 16:03 |
| cpopell | jrayhawk: because the more left it goes, the more fragmented it gets | 16:04 |
| cpopell | strangewarp: did you get helldumped? | 16:04 |
| strangewarp | cpopell: nope | 16:04 |
| jrayhawk | http://forums.somethingawful.com/showthread.php?threadid=2537734 i got helldumped before there even was a helldump | 16:07 |
| jrayhawk | a pity all the images are dead | 16:07 |
| cpopell | were you bungmonkey | 16:07 |
| jrayhawk | yes | 16:07 |
| cluckj | oh god good reunion | 16:08 |
| cpopell | http://i.imgur.com/6B1iK.jpg | 16:08 |
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| cluckj | err goon reunion | 16:08 |
| cpopell | I didn't get an account til 2010 so | 16:08 |
| jrayhawk | http://www.omgwallhack.org/home/jrayhawk/img/hovel/ more here | 16:08 |
| jrayhawk | man, that was a good thread. poor fyad :( | 16:09 |
| cluckj | :| | 16:11 |
| eudoxia | so that's where that image of the bed in the basement is from | 16:11 |
| strangewarp | I wonder what happens now to all the alienated FYAD leftist comedians. | 16:12 |
| cpopell | tumblr | 16:12 |
| cluckj | ^ | 16:12 |
| jrayhawk | And twitter. | 16:12 |
| cpopell | then digested by the maw of TiA for my amusement | 16:12 |
| eudoxia | TiA? | 16:13 |
| cpopell | tumblrinaction | 16:13 |
| cpopell | it makes fun of tumblr | 16:13 |
| eudoxia | is that like shitredditsays | 16:13 |
| eudoxia | why do i ask i don't even know what that is either | 16:13 |
| cpopell | that is a controversial question | 16:13 |
| strangewarp | it cherrypicks crazy people on tumblr (but never tumblr's large nazi/neoreaction community, oddly) and mocks them | 16:13 |
| cpopell | nah, they've mocked a bunch of nazis | 16:14 |
| strangewarp | hmm | 16:14 |
| cpopell | I doubt most of them have heard of neoreaction >_> | 16:14 |
| cpopell | I've never seen neoreaction discussed anywhere but #lesswrong, Yvain's site, and various facebooks of related people | 16:15 |
| cluckj | I've never heard of it before | 16:15 |
| jrayhawk | also david brin and techcrunch http://davidbrin.blogspot.com/2013/11/neo-reactionaries-drop-all-pretense-end.html http://anti-gnostic.blogspot.com/2013/11/the-cathedral-notices-neo-reaction.html | 16:16 |
| cpopell | http://slatestarcodex.com/2013/10/20/the-anti-reactionary-faq/ have an innoculation, cluckj | 16:16 |
| kanzure | "I'm pigeonholing all of them as agreeing with Michael Anissimov, which they do not; this complaint seems reasonable" | 16:17 |
| kanzure | what is anissimov doing here | 16:17 |
| kanzure | where am i | 16:17 |
| cpopell | anissimov is a neoreactionary | 16:17 |
| strangewarp | Anissimov is going to form a neoreactionary compound in Idaho soon, actually | 16:17 |
| eudoxia | rachel haywire ruined everything | 16:17 |
| jrayhawk | http://slatestarcodex.com/2014/04/22/right-is-the-new-left/ is a pretty good theory on why the neoreaction is happening | 16:17 |
| eudoxia | i tried to warn them | 16:17 |
| cpopell | I almost met her once | 16:17 |
| cpopell | To try to sleep with her | 16:17 |
| kanzure | i think i can blame jrayhawk for this | 16:17 |
| cpopell | it didn't happe | 16:18 |
| cpopell | *happen | 16:18 |
| cluckj | man that is almost tl;dr | 16:18 |
| cluckj | no it is | 16:19 |
| cluckj | sorry... | 16:19 |
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| kanzure | he should have stuck with imminst | 16:19 |
| cluckj | "Neoreaction is a political ideology supporting a return to traditional ideas of government and society, especially traditional monarchy and an ethno-nationalist state. It sees itself opposed to modern ideas like democracy, human rights, multiculturalism, and secularism. " | 16:19 |
| cluckj | that's hysterically funny tho | 16:20 |
| eudoxia | i guess you can sort of see some roots here: http://www.acceleratingfuture.com/michael/blog/2006/01/the-future-could-end-up-looking-like-the-past-at-least-initially/ | 16:21 |
| cpopell | I mean, at least Anissimov is just a nrxn | 16:21 |
| jrayhawk | neoreos are at least willing to point out problems with sacred cows even if their solutions are fairly insane | 16:21 |
| cpopell | I think Haywire might be a nazi | 16:21 |
| cluckj | :/ | 16:22 |
| eudoxia | i thought she was a 'national anarchist' | 16:22 |
| cpopell | or, at least, a radical white supremacist | 16:22 |
| cpopell | alongside Vladimir Frolov | 16:22 |
| cluckj | I would not be surprised that someone who wants an ethno-nationalist state *might be kind of a racist* | 16:22 |
| jrayhawk | yeah, my first reaction to "16:17 < cpopell> it didn't happe" was "you should thank whatever god you have" | 16:23 |
| kanzure | why was alternate rayhawk trying to get me to talk with her? | 16:23 |
| cpopell | cluckj: Well, i know people who support ethno-nationalists states for everyone because they think that each ethno-nationalist subgroup will be most successful that way | 16:24 |
| jrayhawk | compulsive motivational integration | 16:24 |
| eudoxia | did the whole 'zero state' thing turn out to be transtopia 2.0 | 16:24 |
| cluckj | so....rationalized racism? | 16:24 |
| eudoxia | i suspected it would be like that but didn't really follow up on it | 16:24 |
| strangewarp | something something armenian genocide | 16:24 |
| kanzure | jrayhawk: oh, i thought there was something else going on, which is why i never bothered (because i wanted to hear it first) | 16:24 |
| cpopell | cluckj: Nnno? They don't think any one race is better than another, they think homogenous populations are more stable | 16:25 |
| cluckj | O_o | 16:25 |
| cluckj | yeesh | 16:26 |
| eudoxia | so, sort of like jared taylor "not a racist, swear, scout's honor" racism | 16:26 |
| cluckj | ^^^^ | 16:26 |
| cpopell | Out of curiosity, why is that -automatically- racist? | 16:26 |
| cpopell | it's certainly not a settled sociological issue | 16:26 |
| eudoxia | it just has that familiar smell | 16:26 |
| jrayhawk | hey, that means it's time for another yvain post | 16:27 |
| cluckj | eudoxia, if it quacks like a duck... | 16:27 |
| cluckj | cpopell, it's what counts as "homogenous" that makes it racist | 16:29 |
| cpopell | Please explain why, in detail, without using metaphor | 16:29 |
| kanzure | set exclusivity is by definition racism | 16:31 |
| cpopell | you can even use self-identification to determine heterogeneity and homogeneity | 16:31 |
| jrayhawk | where's the yvain post where he talks about memetic strawmen constructs people pattern-match to being epistemic superweapons | 16:32 |
| cpopell | jrayhawk: it's on his old livejournal | 16:32 |
| jrayhawk | ah | 16:32 |
| jrayhawk | eudoxia, cluckj: http://squid314.livejournal.com/329561.html | 16:33 |
| jrayhawk | .title | 16:33 |
| cluckj | without using metaphor? | 16:33 |
| yoleaux | squid314: The Eighth Meditation on Superweapons and Bingo | 16:33 |
| kanzure | both of his examples are boring because they are both funny | 16:34 |
| kanzure | (1) a monkey giving birth to a human is definitely hilarious | 16:34 |
| kanzure | (2) so is the god/bible thing | 16:34 |
| kanzure | he sucks at humor | 16:35 |
| jrayhawk | he's not trying to be funny | 16:35 |
| kanzure | he's implying that they are wrong to find those statements funny | 16:35 |
| jrayhawk | and, yet, 16:20 < cluckj> that's hysterically funny tho | 16:36 |
| kanzure | what's wrong with finding all sides of an issue absurd | 16:37 |
| cluckj | lol | 16:37 |
| kanzure | "all" | 16:37 |
| cluckj | kanzure is 100% correct that those things are pretty funny | 16:37 |
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| kanzure | his bingo example is also worrisome | 16:38 |
| kanzure | i believe i made a transhumanist bingo thing once | 16:38 |
| kanzure | before going to a conference | 16:38 |
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| cluckj | h+ in boston? | 16:39 |
| cluckj | I think I remember that | 16:39 |
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| kanzure | being an obviously extremely enthusiastic transhumanist, which makes more sense: i was trying to undermine their.. okay nevermind. i don't care. | 16:39 |
| eudoxia | hahahah | 16:39 |
| eudoxia | "i got 'read nanosystems'!" | 16:40 |
| cluckj | there's nothing wrong with undermining some of the goofier transhumanist stereotypical buzzwords | 16:40 |
| kanzure | to be fair, i really should read nanosystems eventually | 16:40 |
| cluckj | they get to be goofy buzzwords for a reason | 16:40 |
| cluckj | the author of that lj post is doing exactly what it is accusing other people of doing | 16:42 |
| eudoxia | alternatively: 'read the WBE roadmap', a link to an obscure part of the zyvex labs website, or a ralph merkle lecture at singularity U | 16:42 |
| kanzure | eudoxia: your examples are too specific | 16:42 |
| kanzure | eudoxia: because the vast majority of them haven't actually heard about zyvex | 16:43 |
| kanzure | or even ralph | 16:43 |
| eudoxia | really it's more like a eudoxia bingo | 16:44 |
| cluckj | lol | 16:44 |
| strangewarp | I am vaguely worried that nrx is the only serviceable non-socialist critique of neoliberal capitalism, and therefore that a lot of people might ultimately filter into it. | 16:44 |
| strangewarp | but eh. meh | 16:44 |
| cpopell | strangewarp: Maybe someday I'll write up my thoughts | 16:45 |
| strangewarp | cpopell: hmm | 16:45 |
| cpopell | strangewarp: I suspect that in some ways they're more radical than neoreaction, and in some ways less so | 16:45 |
| cluckj | uh | 16:46 |
| cluckj | wat | 16:46 |
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| kanzure | jrayhawk: although i do appreciate the parts about inhuman monsters | 16:46 |
| gradstudentbot | Should I still be wearing gloves? | 16:48 |
| cluckj | reversion to old ridiculous states of governance is a solution to the current ridiculous state of governance? | 16:48 |
| strangewarp | clickj: apparently | 16:48 |
| cluckj | we need new tricks, not old ones | 16:49 |
| cpopell | cluckj: their problem is with the way we're trying new tricks | 16:50 |
| cluckj | in what way? | 16:51 |
| cpopell | if you read further, their concern is that most of our solutions involve going further the way we're already going | 16:52 |
| cpopell | so they advise going back and re-evaluating | 16:52 |
| cluckj | as though society "evolves" and you can go "back in time," so to speak, to get a do-over? | 16:53 |
| cpopell | I'd advise actually reading through the yvain writeups | 16:53 |
| cpopell | well, their argument is that it's not an evolution, it's just a shifting of opinions, and they're trying to shift it back the way it came to try to figure out where to go next | 16:54 |
| jrayhawk | there's a diversity of arguments; you should probably use specific and tasteful thought leaders rather than attempt to steelman the movement as a whole | 16:55 |
| cluckj | O_o | 16:55 |
| cpopell | jrayhawk: fair-I'd suggest he reads Yvain instead | 16:55 |
| cpopell | I will fully admit that I'm not immersed in it and I'm more or less repeating what I've heard | 16:56 |
| cpopell | neoreo isn't really my thing | 16:56 |
| cluckj | linx? | 16:56 |
| jrayhawk | not really mine either, but i wind up associating with a lot of them for complex signaling reasons | 16:56 |
| jrayhawk | cluckj: http://slatestarcodex.com/2013/10/20/the-anti-reactionary-faq/ | 16:57 |
| cpopell | jrayhawk: I don't but that's because I wouldn't say I strongly associate with that many people in general | 16:57 |
| cpopell | also http://slatestarcodex.com/2013/03/03/reactionary-philosophy-in-an-enormous-planet-sized-nutshell/ which sums up their views | 16:57 |
| jrayhawk | Ah, yeah. | 16:57 |
| jrayhawk | Also you can just read moldbug for a while. He's usually got neat epistemology if you're willing to ignore some of his instrumentality. | 16:58 |
| cluckj | who is writing that stuff? | 16:59 |
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| strangewarp | my guess: the CIA | 17:01 |
| jrayhawk | writing which stuff? | 17:01 |
| strangewarp | more realistically: some pissed-off techie dude | 17:01 |
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| cluckj | strangewarp, some pissed-off kind-of-literate probably white, middle-class, techie dude :\ | 17:03 |
| kanzure | yeah, these posts have really weird epistemology about what it is possible to do as a person or group of people | 17:04 |
| kanzure | is this how other people think about the world | 17:04 |
| cpopell | see, this is why Yvain wrote the Anti-Reactionary FAQ to actually address their points | 17:04 |
| cluckj | kanzure, god I hope not | 17:05 |
| cluckj | no...no I've met lots of people and they don't think about the world like that | 17:05 |
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| cluckj | the massive diatribe against the social sciences is a pretty dead-giveaway about what that guy is up to | 17:07 |
| cpopell | Yvain or Moldbug? | 17:07 |
| cluckj | yvain, I think | 17:08 |
| cpopell | He has a massive diatribe against poor methodology in general | 17:08 |
| cluckj | I'm sure | 17:08 |
| jrayhawk | Yeah, not sure I'm familar with a social-sciences-specific one | 17:09 |
| jrayhawk | He has a pretty big bias towards psych and medical literature, but that's due to his profession. | 17:09 |
| cluckj | what's his profession? | 17:09 |
| cpopell | yeah, he's a medical doctor though I don't know what his residency is | 17:09 |
| cluckj | the social sciences one is in the enormous-planet-sized-nutshell post | 17:10 |
| cpopell | can you quote a specific line? | 17:10 |
| kanzure | maybe the hyperborder line | 17:11 |
| cluckj | "Almost all of our hard data on race comes from sociology programs in universities – ie the most liberal departments in the most liberal institutions in the country. Most of these sociology departments have an explicit mission statement of existing to fight racism." ... Do you think the average sociologist selects the study design most likely to turn up evidence of racist beliefs being correct, or the study design most likely to | 17:12 |
| cluckj | turn up the opposite? If despite her best efforts a study does turn up evidence of racist beliefs being correct, do you think she’s going to submit it to a major journal with her name on it for everyone to see? And if by some bizarre chance she does submit it, do you think the International Journal Of We Hate Racism So We Publish Studies Proving How Dumb Racists Are is going to cheerfully include it in their next edition?" | 17:12 |
| kanzure | .title http://research.microsoft.com/en-us/projects/typehoverswipe/ | 17:14 |
| yoleaux | Type–Hover–Swipe in 96 Bytes: A Motion Sensing Mechanical Keyboard | 17:14 |
| cpopell | Do you think it's out of an innate dislike for liberals (which he tends to identify as), or a worry about ideology impacting results? | 17:14 |
| cpopell | He recently wrote a blog post on ideology impacting results | 17:14 |
| kanzure | infrared proximity sensors embedded between each key on the keyboard, then basic gesture recognition stuff | 17:14 |
| cluckj | kind of culty rhetoric overall too | 17:14 |
| FourFire | cluckj, and what does that mean if data still ends up showing racist things? | 17:14 |
| cluckj | FourFire, big surprise: there's racism around | 17:15 |
| FourFire | god/nature/evolution must be REALLY racist | 17:15 |
| cluckj | o_O | 17:16 |
| cluckj | what? | 17:16 |
| eudoxia | B| | 17:16 |
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| cluckj | cpopell, ideology impacts results everywhere | 17:17 |
| cpopell | cluckj: I'm well aware. | 17:17 |
| cluckj | and sociology is the most "objective" of all the social sciences | 17:17 |
| cpopell | ehhhhhhhhhhhh in some schools. | 17:18 |
| cluckj | they're the butt of lots of jokes because they have hard-science envy | 17:18 |
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| FourFire | hello kanzure I think I met your liberal arts, kawai doppleganger | 17:18 |
| gradstudentbot | The freezer was too cold and fucked up my sample DNA. | 17:19 |
| FourFire | funnily enough they seem to instantly hate me too ;P | 17:19 |
| @kanzure | i prefer neil gershenfeld's "liberation arts" | 17:19 |
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| @kanzure | "Literacy in the modern sense emerged in the Renaissance as mastery of the liberal arts. This is liberal in the sense of liberation, not politically liberal." [blah blah blah, shut up and code] | 17:20 |
| cluckj | true dat | 17:20 |
| cluckj | I hope I'm not the doppleganger | 17:23 |
| @kanzure | you're more like, adjacent and 30 degrees too far over | 17:24 |
| @kanzure | i made that up. i have no idea why you would be my doppleganger. | 17:24 |
| cluckj | lol | 17:27 |
| cluckj | me neither | 17:27 |
| cluckj | contextually it sounded like FourFire was accusing me of that | 17:28 |
| FourFire | sorry, what? | 17:29 |
| FourFire | no lol | 17:29 |
| cluckj | okay | 17:29 |
| FourFire | I wouldn't be so blatant | 17:29 |
| cluckj | I don't know you well enough to hate you | 17:29 |
| FourFire | and you didn't express nearly enough hostility towards me to consider that you hated me at all | 17:30 |
| FourFire | exactly | 17:30 |
| cluckj | puzzled, yes; hateful, no | 17:31 |
| eudoxia | what if we're all uploads an AI decided to keep after it went FOOM | 17:32 |
| eudoxia | and there's really nothing outside of ##hplusroadmap | 17:32 |
| cluckj | I assure you I am not a computer | 17:32 |
| @kanzure | just a flesshy calculating organism machine thing | 17:33 |
| @kanzure | so basically a computer | 17:33 |
| @kanzure | but it's totally not like that | 17:33 |
| cluckj | more gooey | 17:33 |
| @kanzure | *fleshy | 17:33 |
| eudoxia | less pointy | 17:33 |
| cluckj | very messy | 17:33 |
| cluckj | there are parts of me made of computer, but I am not a computer | 17:33 |
| eudoxia | also colder | 17:34 |
| cluckj | maybe | 17:35 |
| gradstudentbot | Do I use a one or two sided t-test for that? | 17:36 |
| cluckj | aight I am done reading that neoreactionary garbage :( | 17:36 |
| cluckj | nothing gained | 17:36 |
| cluckj | I love you gradstudentbot | 17:36 |
| gradstudentbot | Yeah, that's a reasonable explanation. | 17:36 |
| * eudoxia pokes gradstudentbot | 17:38 | |
| gradstudentbot | Well, it looks better if you see it through a UV scope. | 17:38 |
| FourFire | cluckj, I would warm your cold parts with my warm parts | 17:41 |
| FourFire | but that sounded way less creepy inside my head | 17:41 |
| FourFire | Perhaps I better soz now | 17:41 |
| FourFire | nitelight! | 17:42 |
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| cluckj | ew | 17:42 |
| xentrac | 19:37 < kanzure> to be fair, i really should read nanosystems eventually | 17:43 |
| xentrac | me too. I even bought a copy | 17:43 |
| eudoxia | well know i feel less guilty for not getting past page 50 | 17:43 |
| xentrac | 19:42 < strangewarp> I am vaguely worried that nrx is the only serviceable non-socialist critique of neoliberal capitalism, and therefore that a lot of people might ultimately filter into it. | 17:43 |
| xentrac | outside the US, neoliberal capitalism is really very unpopular | 17:43 |
| @kanzure | i am surprised that you haven't read kinematic self-replicating machines or the NASA AASM report | 17:44 |
| xentrac | and while socialism is popular, neoreaction is not going to be | 17:44 |
| eudoxia | i felt like drexler was trying to justify ab initio simulations to me, and i was like "come on eric get to the good stuff" | 17:44 |
| xentrac | so there's a lot of stuff popping up | 17:44 |
| xentrac | yeah, I think I've read a few pages | 17:47 |
| xentrac | of nanosystems | 17:47 |
| @kanzure | why is there no thin film piezoelectric array thing | 17:47 |
| xentrac | why are you surprised I haven't read those, kanzure? | 17:47 |
| @kanzure | KSRM is often a favorite for anyone who has thought about mechanical contraptions and/or reprap | 17:47 |
| xentrac | without having actually built them? :) | 17:49 |
| xentrac | I'm kind of like Eugen in that | 17:49 |
| xentrac | too much book, not enough street | 17:49 |
| @kanzure | his laser worm uploader gave him a chunk of street cred | 17:50 |
| @kanzure | man these are very dimensionally inconsistent streets | 17:51 |
| xentrac | heh | 17:52 |
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| nmz787_i | punchcard microfluidics control https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kNQToOEFNmY | 17:54 |
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| @kanzure | thin film transducers http://www.cesma.de/fileadmin/FILES/Files_CESMA/piezo/CeSMa_Thin_film_transducers.pdf | 17:54 |
| xentrac | is that minduploading.org? | 17:54 |
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| @kanzure | xentrac: a lot of the content is gone, http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/neuro/nematodeuploadproject/ | 17:54 |
| @kanzure | xentrac: http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/neuro/nematodeuploadproject/url.txt | 17:54 |
| eudoxia | some of the slices are missing too | 17:55 |
| @kanzure | there used to be a picture of the machine they built | 17:55 |
| nmz787_i | so the one fab who does glass say they can do glass deflection valves | 17:55 |
| cluckj | <xentrac> and while socialism is popular, neoreaction is not going to be <------- | 17:55 |
| eudoxia | it was a KESM or something wasn't it? | 17:55 |
| nmz787_i | basically causing some thin section of the glass channel to bulge and cut off flow | 17:55 |
| @kanzure | nmz787_i: which one? | 17:58 |
| @kanzure | eudoxia: maybe, but i get that one confused with todd huffman's | 17:58 |
| nmz787_i | invenios | 17:58 |
| nmz787_i | so that relieves some worry about chemical:channel compatibility | 17:59 |
| @kanzure | what is their price? | 17:59 |
| eudoxia | cool -> https://web.archive.org/web/20000821073558/http://retina.anatomy.upenn.edu/~rob/montage.html | 17:59 |
| nmz787_i | they didn't say, first they're going to get me an nda so I can discuss the design further... but they did say that they're a privately held company and the owner has done some startup investment before | 18:00 |
| xentrac | cluckj: ? | 18:00 |
| cluckj | I'm agreeing | 18:00 |
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| xentrac | ah | 18:01 |
| @kanzure | why do you need an nda to ask about price? | 18:01 |
| nmz787_i | because they need to know how complex the features are, and so i'll need to give them some CADs | 18:01 |
| xentrac | I realize that what i said is sort of incomplete: lots of other ideologies are going to fill the vacuum | 18:01 |
| xentrac | Mormonism, for example | 18:01 |
| @kanzure | you mean transfigurism | 18:02 |
| @kanzure | .g mormon transhumanist association | 18:02 |
| yoleaux | http://transfigurism.org/ | 18:02 |
| cluckj | at least mormonism isn't bathing in the glorious light of overt racism | 18:02 |
| cluckj | ... | 18:03 |
| xentrac | overt racism, sad to say, is pretty popular | 18:03 |
| cluckj | hehe | 18:03 |
| cluckj | yes | 18:03 |
| @kanzure | nmz787_i: do you have cad files to give them? and why do they need to be covered by nda | 18:04 |
| nmz787_i | they're in the works, I want to have some legal control over them... also the nda is for them too, for fab process, existing designs, etc | 18:05 |
| @kanzure | if you want an estimate just on valves, give them another design that uses valves | 18:05 |
| @kanzure | and then you don't need to have an nda | 18:05 |
| nmz787_i | yeah I could do that | 18:06 |
| @kanzure | xentrac: i want to iterate through possible mechanism designs instead of spending 100s of years waiting for people to come up with clever hacks | 18:10 |
| @kanzure | xentrac: maybe something like (input, output) coordinates in 3d spcae for different amounts of material or energy | 18:10 |
| xentrac | I'm lacking context about that statement | 18:10 |
| @kanzure | the dolls you showed are very intriguing | 18:10 |
| xentrac | ah | 18:11 |
| @kanzure | there are often lots of obscure mechanisms from old arabic books that nobody has heard of | 18:11 |
| @kanzure | for example, from whatever era where they became obsessed with water fountains | 18:11 |
| xentrac | that sounds interesting; where can I learn more? | 18:11 |
| @kanzure | often these designs are not intuitively obvious | 18:11 |
| eudoxia | i always wondered how the fountain in that kirsten dunst movie worked | 18:11 |
| @kanzure | i don't really know, i keep seeing '1000 kinematic designs' books and that's where i gleam this from | 18:11 |
| @kanzure | fenn probably knows | 18:11 |
| xentrac | I don't think kinematic designs are very important | 18:12 |
| @kanzure | then there's those weird strandbeests | 18:12 |
| xentrac | particularly things made of rigid materials | 18:12 |
| @kanzure | why's that? | 18:12 |
| xentrac | I enjoy playing with them and I think they're cool | 18:13 |
| xentrac | but I think very few of them are practical as means to an end | 18:13 |
| xentrac | I mean, the gap from a travois to a European wheelbarrow is significant | 18:14 |
| xentrac | and the gap from there to a Chinese wheelbarrow is even more so | 18:14 |
| xentrac | but then you have the gap from the Chinese wheelbarrow to, you know, an 18-wheeler, and that's not about kinematic designs any more | 18:15 |
| @kanzure | it's basically encoding motion into structure/form | 18:15 |
| xentrac | it's about metrology and petroleum and economic specialization | 18:15 |
| xentrac | and of course massive subsidies from a centralized government | 18:15 |
| xentrac | but I think that if you want to encode motion | 18:16 |
| xentrac | you should probably encode it in ROM | 18:16 |
| xentrac | or maybe RAM | 18:16 |
| xentrac | not in the structure of your device | 18:16 |
| xentrac | if your objective is to make the motion happen, not make people marvel at how cleverly it was achieved | 18:17 |
| @kanzure | yeah the marveling i don't care about | 18:17 |
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| xentrac | yeah. I like marveling and I think it's important but I don't think marvelousness should be confused with practicality | 18:19 |
| @kanzure | .title http://fqxi.org/community/forum/topic/2129 | 18:20 |
| yoleaux | FQXi Community | 18:20 |
| @kanzure | terrible title | 18:20 |
| xentrac | in English at least | 18:20 |
| @kanzure | http://fqxi.org/data/essay-contest-files/Kaas_fqxiessay2a.pdf | 18:20 |
| gradstudentbot | I'm only doing this to get tenure. | 18:21 |
| @ParahSailin | philosophy? | 18:21 |
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| jrayhawk | kanzure has to kick himself, now | 18:21 |
| xentrac | :) | 18:22 |
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| xentrac | specifically in the context of MNT I think Drexler modeled things after machines we're familiar with in order to be able to demonstrate feasibility | 18:23 |
| xentrac | which I think he did (despite not having read Nanosystems!) | 18:23 |
| @kanzure | you can just look at the .mmp files | 18:24 |
| xentrac | but in a sense it's sort of like how the ENIAC was built with one-hot base-ten encoding and therefore had a tube count and failure rate almost an order of magnitude higher than its immediate successors | 18:24 |
| @kanzure | https://github.com/kanzure/nanoengineer/tree/master/cad/partlib | 18:24 |
| @kanzure | oof i don't even remember non-nanoengineer methods of viewing .mmp files | 18:25 |
| @kanzure | mayavi2? | 18:25 |
| @kanzure | .. vtk? | 18:26 |
| xentrac | and Babbage's machines, suffering much the same problem but without the resources of the world's richest government desperately trying to win history's biggest war, remained unfinished for almost two centuries | 18:26 |
| xentrac | so I think we'll probably find ways of doing things that are orders of magnitude cheaper than rigid diamondoid parts sliding over each other | 18:27 |
| @kanzure | in the mean time there's a bunch of manufacturing problems getting there: | 18:27 |
| @kanzure | http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/nanotech/freitas_process/notes.txt | 18:27 |
| xentrac | right | 18:28 |
| xentrac | also I could totally be wrong and we could totally end up doing things the nanosystems way | 18:30 |
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| xentrac | but if we don't, it was still important as a demonstration that MNT was possible somehow | 18:32 |
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| @kanzure | google scholar doesn't consider "intitle:piezo" to be a superset of "intitle:piezoelectric" | 19:05 |
| @kanzure | argh it's 2014 why don't i have a 50 terabyte archive of all papers | 19:09 |
| jrayhawk | libgen's only 30TB | 19:13 |
| @kanzure | you counted? or where is it listed | 19:18 |
| jrayhawk | https://sites.google.com/site/themetalibrary/library-genesis hmm, i guess this is just "at least" | 19:20 |
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| @kanzure | annular arrays are neat because it makes wiring much easier: http://www.insensor.com/img/app_trans_trans2.jpg | 20:03 |
| @kanzure | http://myweb.dal.ca/jr516125/index_files/annular%20array.jpg | 20:04 |
| @kanzure | and i think it might work with pcb-style copper etching | 20:06 |
| @kanzure | oh, i guess a linear pzt array is also pretty simple to wire up or etch paths for | 20:09 |
| juri_ | so, last week 50% of my immediate family was diagnosed with cancer. | 20:28 |
| juri_ | am i allowed to kill luddites and technophobes now? | 20:28 |
| @kanzure | cancer diagnosis is very vague | 20:29 |
| @kanzure | could be anything | 20:29 |
| juri_ | breast + cervical + blader + ovarian cancer for my little sister. testicular cancer for my father. | 20:30 |
| jrayhawk | what do luddites and technophobes have to do with cancer | 20:30 |
| juri_ | oh, nothing. i just feel like killing someone, and they fit the bill. | 20:31 |
| jrayhawk | oh okay | 20:31 |
| @kanzure | do you know what stage of cancer for each of those | 20:33 |
| juri_ | negative. | 20:33 |
| juri_ | i know my sister has started chemo. | 20:33 |
| @kanzure | your sister is either unlucky or she has metastasized | 20:33 |
| xentrac | not necessarily | 20:35 |
| xentrac | oh | 20:35 |
| xentrac | sorry | 20:35 |
| xentrac | I was missing context | 20:35 |
| xentrac | juri_: that's really horrible and sad | 20:36 |
| juri_ | its ok. i'm just generally hating life right now. | 20:36 |
| xentrac | your father will almost certainly be fine | 20:36 |
| juri_ | bonus points: my mother has been diagnosed with ataxia, cannot walk anymore, and has macular degeneration. she was a championship quilter. | 20:37 |
| juri_ | this is all over the last month. | 20:38 |
| juri_ | are you sure i can't just wing a few technophobes? | 20:38 |
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| juri_ | no-one would notice. | 20:38 |
| @kanzure | i have a very thorough list of names if you're interested | 20:38 |
| juri_ | were you born a lisp programmer, or do lists just come naturally to you? :) | 20:39 |
| xentrac | .wik ataxia | 20:42 |
| yoleaux | "Ataxia (from Greek α- [a negative prefix] + -τάξις [order] = "lack of order"), is a neurological sign consisting of lack of voluntary coordination of muscle movements. Ataxia is a non-specific clinical manifestation implying dysfunction of the parts of the nervous system that coordinate movement, such as the cerebellum." — http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ataxia | 20:42 |
| @kanzure | simple solution is ablate the cerebellum | 20:43 |
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| @kanzure | according to http://qspace.library.queensu.ca/dspace/bitstream/1974/6235/1/Wall_Kieran_A_201012_PhD.pdf in annular arrays there is "no possibility of electrical beam steering" | 20:50 |
| @kanzure | "The axial symmetry of the array prevents electronic beam steering, but electronic focussing | 20:55 |
| @kanzure | is possible" | 20:55 |
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| superkuh | _archels, no. I was not the one (re: simulation environment). | 21:39 |
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| ebowden | paperbot: http://www.researchgate.net/.../230846374_Piezoelectric_InAsGaAs_quantum...%E2%80%8E | 22:17 |
| paperbot | http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/paperbot/bf042c69f3a82d73af60e0b0023d1cd0.txt | 22:17 |
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| @kanzure | "simulation of sidescan transducer arrays" http://www.beugungsbild.de/sidescan/sidescan2.html | 22:32 |
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| delinquentme | Ok I think this is a formal fallacy: When one instance of a given thing is presented, torn down and consequently used to veto all others belonging to that category | 22:41 |
| delinquentme | IE Monsanto made agent orange, therefore everything monsanto does kills babies | 22:42 |
| gradstudentbot | None of this data makes sense. | 22:42 |
| fenn | i have mixed feelings about ScIO. i'm sure it's a great spectrometer and does what they advertise, but essentially they're squatting the scientific commons by keeping the contributed data locked up in their "cloud" - why can't anyone just sell a sensor anymore instead of an "app" | 22:44 |
| xmj | fenn: vendor lockin | 22:48 |
| xmj | why do you think things are as cheap? | 22:48 |
| xmj | because they got you by the balls for the next couple of years due to lockin effects. | 22:48 |
| @kanzure | shouldn't there be a way to do an electrically addressable 2d grid | 22:48 |
| justanotheruser | Opinion on ethereum? | 22:49 |
| @kanzure | ethereum is going to experience a blood bath whenever official release happens | 22:49 |
| justanotheruser | Opinion on bound-to-happen ethereum fork that has no premine? | 22:50 |
| @kanzure | will be badmouthed by premine chain | 22:50 |
| justanotheruser | Quite possibly | 22:50 |
| justanotheruser | Maybe a script will be made on the premine chain generating insult strings towards the other chain | 22:51 |
| @kanzure | how does pixel addressing in DMDs work? | 22:57 |
| @kanzure | "To move the mirrors, the required state is first loaded into an SRAM cell located beneath each pixel, which is also connected to the electrodes. Once all the SRAM cells have been loaded, the bias voltage is removed, allowing the charges from the SRAM cell to prevail, moving the mirror. When the bias is restored, the mirror is once again held in position, and the next required movement can be loaded into the memory cell." | 22:58 |
| @kanzure | well, okay, but how does the sram cell routing work | 22:58 |
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| fenn | xmj: nobody has me by the balls | 23:15 |
| fenn | kanzure: multiplexing | 23:15 |
| fenn | don't worry about DMD yet | 23:16 |
| fenn | you don't have that many pixels | 23:16 |
| @kanzure | i've seen one paper, "A 256×2562-D array transducer with Row-column addressing for 3-D Rectilinear Imaging", but they turn on/off an entire column at a time (but not a row?), so there's never single element addressing | 23:16 |
| @kanzure | which i find highly confusing | 23:16 |
| @kanzure | and one of the earlier papers i pasted has some jackass manually soldering wires directly to the back of each element in a 8x8 piezo grid | 23:17 |
| fenn | it's only 64 wires, why not | 23:17 |
| @kanzure | because multiplexing is adequate | 23:18 |
| fenn | row-column addressing implies that they are turning on a row and a column and only selecting one element at a time | 23:18 |
| * kanzure looks closer | 23:18 | |
| fenn | a voltage only exists between two points, so if you turn on an entire row's positive electrode, nothing happens unless there is also a negative electrode connected | 23:19 |
| fenn | excluding ground leakage or whatever | 23:19 |
| fenn | why is denyhosts freaking out on my nook | 23:19 |
| @kanzure | "In these experiments, one row was connected to one channel of the Sonix system. ... 64 receive columns were each connected to individual system channels configured to operate in receive mode only." | 23:20 |
| @kanzure | "decreased number of channels compared to a fully sampled 2-D array of comparable size" | 23:20 |
| fenn | uh, how many pixels total did they have? | 23:21 |
| @kanzure | 65536 (256x256) | 23:21 |
| @kanzure | 38.4 mm^2 | 23:21 |
| fenn | so why are they using 64 whatevers | 23:21 |
| @kanzure | because apparently they are not using the term "row-column addressing" correctly | 23:22 |
| fenn | i mean, maybe their receiver could only handle 64 channels when it really should have been capable of 256 | 23:22 |
| @kanzure | multiplexing might not be obvious to others? | 23:24 |
| gradstudentbot | I think I just cured cancer. Wow. | 23:24 |
| @kanzure | someone tell juri_ | 23:24 |
| fenn | you can't multiplex multiple continuous analog streams without some kind of buffer | 23:24 |
| @kanzure | does there need to be one analog-to-digital converter per channel? | 23:25 |
| fenn | uh.. i dont know how their system works, sorry | 23:25 |
| @kanzure | per channel/pzt/thing | 23:25 |
| fenn | there's a way to do analog sample and hold, but that doesn't work for dynamic signals like sonar measurements | 23:25 |
| fenn | i don't know that much about analog multiplexing tbh | 23:25 |
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| fenn | you can get more channels if you throw away data | 23:26 |
| fenn | say you have 2 ADC's, and 4 channels. you can monitor 2 channels all of the time, or 4 channels half of the time each | 23:27 |
| fenn | there also might be some way to XOR (?) the analog data.. like just add a zillion sparse channels together in n different ways and then bisect to determine which channel the event happened on | 23:29 |
| fenn | that only works with sparse signals tho | 23:29 |
| @kanzure | since sound is slow i don't think monitoring the channels less than constantly is a problem | 23:31 |
| fenn | depends on your adc speed | 23:32 |
| fenn | if you have enough adc bandwidth to fill in the gaps, sure | 23:32 |
| @kanzure | the gaps during switching? | 23:32 |
| fenn | consider nyquist aliasing; if your adc has more than twice the bandwidth of the channel, you can monitor 2 channels and not worry about aliasing (excluding switching time, which may be significant) | 23:33 |
| fenn | the gaps when you are not monitoring the channel | 23:33 |
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| fenn | i might be using the words incorrectly, i never formally studied any of this | 23:34 |
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| @kanzure | the limiting factor is the construction of cheap transducers | 23:37 |
| @kanzure | uh, that also happen to do relevant phasing | 23:37 |
| @kanzure | maybe manually soldering the wires is not that costly, but people just point the blame on that | 23:37 |
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| @kanzure | see chapter 4 of http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/ultrasound/Flexible%20two-dimensional%20ultrasonic%20transducer%20array:%20design,%20fabrication%20and%20characterization.pdf | 23:39 |
| fenn | dear God, thank you for allowing me to live a life of soldering wires to sensor elements | 23:40 |
| fenn | does everyone in academia just have the same template files or what? | 23:41 |
| @kanzure | (yes) | 23:41 |
| @kanzure | http://www.ootpdevelopments.com/board/attachments/iootp-2011-general-discussions/217391d1306358043-question-developer-johnny5-need-input.jpg | 23:41 |
| fenn | is that supposed to be a meme? | 23:42 |
| @kanzure | it's from the movie | 23:42 |
| @kanzure | this little guy roams around seeking input | 23:42 |
| @kanzure | .title https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hhhmI42gaa4&t=8s | 23:43 |
| yoleaux | Short Circuit [1986] - Theatrical Trailer | 23:43 |
| fenn | okay figure 4.3 is kinda whack | 23:43 |
| fenn | figure 4.5 looks proper | 23:44 |
| fenn | maybe it's because their array is flexible so they didn't want to bond it to the PCB | 23:45 |
| fenn | but we know better ways to make flexible circuits than boatloads of wires | 23:45 |
| @kanzure | i don't think our use case requires flexibility | 23:46 |
| fenn | i don't think any use case requires flexibility | 23:46 |
| fenn | i mean you can just put a blob of goo on the front and it's the same thing pretty much | 23:46 |
| fenn | there are cases where you'd want your thingy to be flexible, but not for the purpose of sensing, just to simplify construction and other engineering tradeoffs | 23:47 |
| fenn | Nepers per meter. well there's a new unit | 23:48 |
| fenn | so he says flexibility is because otherwise the sound waves are not parallel to the surface in a rigid transducer, and impedance mismatch of the "coupling layer" (goo) | 23:51 |
| fenn | i don't buy that because you can point the beam wherever you want with beamforming, that's the whole point of using an array | 23:52 |
| gradstudentbot | Sorry about that. | 23:52 |
| fenn | also with a flexible transducer you don't know the shape of your transducer so your entire image will be distorted in an unknown way | 23:53 |
| @kanzure | why don't they put a sensor on the other side of your body? | 23:54 |
| @kanzure | or even a few cm away etc | 23:54 |
| @kanzure | oh right, you don't know the location of the sensor | 23:54 |
| fenn | oh no do i put these in /measurement/ultrasound or /neuro/ultrasonic_brain_stimulatoin | 23:55 |
| @kanzure | well, first you fix the typo | 23:55 |
| fenn | there is no type | 23:55 |
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| @kanzure | stimulation | 23:55 |
| @kanzure | second, brain stimulation should probably be reserved for brain or neuron stimulation | 23:55 |
| @kanzure | and i don't know what measurement implies | 23:56 |
| fenn | currently has a bunch of analytical chemistry stuff | 23:56 |
| fenn | i'm thinking it's where "how to build lab equipment for measuring stuff" goes | 23:56 |
| @kanzure | /root/home/home/papers/science/real-science/vibrations/mechanical-pressure-waves/non-audible/ | 23:56 |
| fenn | real-science? | 23:57 |
| fenn | do you also have pseudo-science? | 23:57 |
| fenn | and definitely-fake-science? | 23:57 |
| @kanzure | this isn't comparative ontology 101 | 23:58 |
| @kanzure | this is just observational ontology | 23:58 |
| fenn | critical ontological theory | 23:58 |
| fenn | let's have a group discussion | 23:59 |
| fenn | how do paradigms of ontological oppression manifest in the mid century american technosphere | 23:59 |
| @kanzure | are there options other than multiplexing? | 23:59 |
| --- Log closed Wed Apr 30 00:00:02 2014 | ||
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