| --- Log opened Thu May 01 00:00:56 2014 | ||
| delinquentme | HM! | 00:03 |
|---|---|---|
| delinquentme | fenn, +1 | 00:03 |
| delinquentme | PS: https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/903107259/scio-your-sixth-sense-a-pocket-molecular-sensor-fo | 00:04 |
| delinquentme | this SEEMS quite a bit like the telspec ... though they've claimed they have working sensors and are currently analyzing medication | 00:05 |
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| fenn | i think i'm going to put a big honkin parabolic wifi antenna on my nookmobile | 02:46 |
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| fenn | woah i just realized this gps carrier interferometry technique could be used for tracking wifi devices or extremely accurate localization from wifi beacons | 03:10 |
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| fenn | you could have a head up display of wifi sources and ssid and even unencrypted packet contents | 03:11 |
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| fenn | superkuh was your interferometer for stellar or terrestrial observation? | 03:33 |
| superkuh | Solar. | 03:34 |
| fenn | were you able to determine the time of day with it? | 03:35 |
| superkuh | Is that a joke? | 03:37 |
| fenn | no. i am interested in using radio interferometry to measure angles to satellites and other sources. also learning about phased array limitations i.e. angular resolution and resolving ambiguities | 03:39 |
| fenn | basically i have no idea what your interferometer was for, but i dont know anyone else who has built anything similar | 03:42 |
| superkuh | http://superkuh.com/rtlsdrinterferometer.html | 03:44 |
| chris_99 | that looks very impressive! | 03:48 |
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| kanzure | .title http://doar-e.github.io/blog/2014/04/30/corrupting-arm-evt/ | 04:49 |
| yoleaux | Corrupting the ARM Exception Vector Table | 04:49 |
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| kanzure | dcary: hi | 04:53 |
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| kanzure | happy mailing list membership reminder day | 05:07 |
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| kanzure | http://kentonv.github.io/capnproto/ (instead of using straight up protobufs) | 05:15 |
| fenn | instead of a rigid circuit board for transducer electrode connections, it probably makes sense to make a custom flat pack cable (etched copper film on polyimide or PETE) that folds over to connect both sides of the transducers. i can make a sketch if that is confusing | 05:23 |
| fenn | for row/column it would rotate 90 degrees | 05:24 |
| kanzure | i'll take a sketch | 05:32 |
| xmj | http://yourbrainonporn.com/quitting-porn-prepare-more-vibrant-emotions | 05:37 |
| kanzure | seems intuitively wrong to me, because most kids don't watch porn | 05:39 |
| kanzure | so the guy who claims he didn't know grief before seems highly unlikely | 05:39 |
| kanzure | and uninteresting | 05:39 |
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| fenn | http://fennetic.net/irc/transducer_flat_cable.jpg | 06:00 |
| fenn | if you you use row/column addressing you only need sqrt(n) wires, but you only get 1/n^2 of the signal per element. if you connect two wires to each element you need 2n wires, but can monitor them completely. i'm probably missing something stupid like common ground | 06:02 |
| fenn | common ground is n+1 wires | 06:03 |
| fenn | it amounts to 3/4 of the area if you have a constant wire/space pitch distance | 06:04 |
| fenn | something something common mode noise rejection | 06:05 |
| kanzure | what does the folding achieve? why connect both sides | 06:05 |
| fenn | to use both sides of the cable.. you can squeeze more wires in that way | 06:07 |
| fenn | instead of wasting space on vias (and vias break with vibration and probably also with ultrasound vibration) | 06:07 |
| kanzure | oh. hm. | 06:07 |
| fenn | oh, also you have to connect electrically to both sides of the chunk of piezo material | 06:08 |
| fenn | think of them as capacitors | 06:08 |
| kanzure | what about sandwhiching pcb boards for top/bottom of te elements? | 06:09 |
| fenn | pcb boards are rigid and anisotropic, i'd expect they would scatter a lot of ultrasound | 06:09 |
| kanzure | in general what annoyance factor should i assign to etched copper films | 06:09 |
| fenn | same as pcb, but less vendor availability | 06:10 |
| fenn | they're pretty handy, i might just switch to using flex cables exclusively | 06:10 |
| fenn | it's common to receive the plastic backing film and the copper foil separately, and you have to laminate them together | 06:11 |
| fenn | i dont know why they do that | 06:12 |
| fenn | wow so ultrasound signals are in the megahertz, that means they are pretty much radio waves when traveling in wires | 06:13 |
| fenn | and wires carrying signals are vulnerable to RF interference and capacitive crosstalk etc | 06:13 |
| kanzure | i think there's a ribbon cable with alternating insulation and wiring | 06:14 |
| fenn | but why use a cable and a connector and a pcb when you can just use the cable itself | 06:14 |
| fenn | is it possible to just buy this | 06:15 |
| kanzure | fully assembled ultrasound transducers are a bit pricey compared to what i think they could be built for | 06:16 |
| fenn | oh the thing i haven't thought about is that piezos usually run at high voltage and that might not work with my tight spacing | 06:17 |
| fenn | "our engineers provide you with an acoustic 'sandwich' that includes ceramic and backing with face layers or a lens that would your requirements. multi-element assemblies can include flex circuitry terminated in a connector of your choice" and there is a picture of a ceramic grid next to a brown/orange flex cable like i am talking about | 06:21 |
| fenn | that would match your requirements* | 06:21 |
| fenn | here's a sucky version of the image from the pdf http://www.blatek.com/images/home_feature3.jpg | 06:22 |
| fenn | i wonder if it's typical to use a common ground electrode as the "face layer" | 06:23 |
| fenn | "B mode ocular ultrasound transducers typically operate at the 10MHz to 50MHz frequency range. Popular general imaging B-scans can range from 2.0MHz through 10MHz." | 06:26 |
| fenn | why are b-scan transducers round if they produce a 2D image | 06:27 |
| kanzure | clipping? | 06:29 |
| FourFire | kanzure, porn thing smells like bad science | 06:31 |
| fenn | it seems like it would be rectangular | 06:31 |
| fenn | "finally, freedom from porn!" lol | 06:32 |
| kanzure | i am highly skeptical of anyone who tries to claim that people who disgree with them are unfeeling monsters | 06:32 |
| fenn | what if i want to be an unfeeling monster | 06:33 |
| kanzure | you're quite welcome to be | 06:33 |
| kanzure | but we're not disagreeing about something | 06:34 |
| kanzure | so i don't see the relevance | 06:34 |
| kanzure | is xmldiff my only option? | 06:35 |
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| fenn | you'd think there would be a standard serialization format and order | 06:37 |
| fenn | but unordered lists exist for some reason? | 06:38 |
| fenn | i don't think i've ever thought "gee my life would be so much easier if i didn't know what order this would appear in on the other end" | 06:39 |
| mosasaur | unfeeling monsters and gwerny relevance doubters | 06:39 |
| fenn | i've also never thought "gee i wish i could worry more about things and have more stress" which apparently the anti-porn website claims as advantages | 06:40 |
| fenn | most of their quotes sound like they're from people who are clinically depressed, and happen to be male | 06:43 |
| kanzure | xmldiff gave me a fucking segmentation fault | 06:46 |
| kanzure | after 4 minutes 21 seconds | 06:47 |
| dcary | fenn: For JSON, there is a standard serialization format and order: Canonical JSON http://wiki.laptop.org/go/Canonical_JSON | 06:47 |
| kanzure | i am xmldiffing the commerce control list between 1997-2013 | 06:48 |
| fenn | there you go kanzure, just convert to Canonical JSON and use diff | 06:54 |
| fenn | then publish it as a git repository | 06:55 |
| kanzure | unfortunately i'm not sure policy like this is really a usable format | 06:55 |
| fenn | but you can see what changed right? | 06:56 |
| kanzure | "Any technology that conforms to section AE451049 but not to section 744-B39J, unless it has the following properties: <ul><li>poop</li></ul>" | 06:56 |
| fenn | are there technology import control lists? | 06:56 |
| kanzure | here's a technology import control list from canada, http://laws-lois.justice.gc.ca/eng/regulations/C.R.C.,_c._604/page-1.html | 06:58 |
| kanzure | "(e) tank destroyers" | 06:59 |
| FourFire | "<kanzure> i am highly skeptical of anyone who tries to claim that people who disgree with them are unfeeling monsters" I'm a mostly unfeeling monster, does that mean I'm addicted to porn? | 06:59 |
| FourFire | No. | 06:59 |
| kanzure | i did not claim it means you are addicted to porn, fuck you | 06:59 |
| kanzure | how could you possibly make that mistake | 06:59 |
| kanzure | "Provolone cheese and Provolone types of cheese that are classified under tariff item No. 0406.90.51 or 0406.90.52 in the List of Tariff Provisions set out in the schedule to the Customs Tariff." | 07:01 |
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| FourFire | mosasaur, since when did gwerny become a word? | 07:02 |
| fenn | this thing looks straight out of GI-JOE http://i.ytimg.com/vi/StC9nRB_AVY/0.jpg | 07:03 |
| cluckj | O_o | 07:03 |
| fenn | .title http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=StC9nRB_AVY | 07:03 |
| yoleaux | US MILITARY unveils ADVANCED ANTI MISSILE LASER made by Lockheed Martin | 07:03 |
| kanzure | what makes it advanced | 07:03 |
| fenn | the caps lock does | 07:04 |
| mosasaur | FourFire: I don't understand | 07:04 |
| kanzure | let me try: ADVANCED ULTRASOUND TRANSDUCER FOR FDA-BANNED BIO-MILITANTS | 07:05 |
| kanzure | yep it works | 07:05 |
| dcary | fenn: "high voltage ... tight spacing" I see that IPC2221, section 6.3.1, "Internal conductors", says that internal conductors with 0.1 mm spacing are good up to 100 V. | 07:06 |
| FourFire | fenn, military laser weapons are a thing now | 07:07 |
| fenn | dcary: so running them at 90V is advisable? :\ | 07:07 |
| FourFire | soon we might have space based laser weapons | 07:07 |
| fenn | FourFire: whatever was in that image i don't think it was a laser, it looks like a GI-JOE main battle tank | 07:07 |
| fenn | wtf why do i need javascript to search by image | 07:08 |
| kanzure | FourFire: you are bad at conversations | 07:08 |
| FourFire | kanzure, thank you for reminding me, I didn't need to be. | 07:09 |
| fenn | conversations are for the weak! | 07:09 |
| kanzure | maybe you could try better or something? | 07:09 |
| fenn | real men thump their chests with explosives | 07:09 |
| kanzure | this is a persistent trend from you | 07:09 |
| kanzure | no need for chest thumping, just don't misintrepret almost everything everyone says to you | 07:10 |
| kanzure | fenn: so i should just dump these into a git repo? | 07:13 |
| kanzure | as-is, or after finding an xml2json converter? | 07:14 |
| fenn | "Rheinmetall plans to test its laser weapons mounted on different vehicles and to integrate a 35mm revolver cannon into it." | 07:14 |
| gradstudentbot | You don't happen to have any more virgin flies, do you? | 07:14 |
| FourFire | kanzure, you seem to be consistently hostile, I do want constructive criticism on how I communicate however. | 07:14 |
| fenn | that's probably why it looks like a big gun | 07:14 |
| FourFire | mosasaur, forget it. | 07:14 |
| kanzure | FourFire: i am very hostile to crap. just don't do it. instead, make statements based on what others are saying. | 07:15 |
| FourFire | You mean, that I am consistently dropping no-context lines, and it annoys you? | 07:16 |
| fenn | kanzure: i mean it would be cool to see a historical progression of the list, formatted as json. each commit would be the list from each year | 07:17 |
| kanzure | no, you are dropping vaguely contextually relevant lines, but they are boring and your line of thought is backtracking | 07:17 |
| FourFire | backtracking... for who exactly? | 07:17 |
| kanzure | for example, did you really think that fenn didn't know about military laser weapons. that's sort of a weird statement to make after he linked to something about military laser weapons! | 07:18 |
| FourFire | You, or is there some sort of channel consensus on what may and may not be discussed after a certain pre-specified unit of time, which I am not aware of? | 07:18 |
| mosasaur | FourFire: So you didn't get I was making a joke by giving a gwerny response to your question? | 07:18 |
| FourFire | mosasaur, yes, sorry. | 07:18 |
| kanzure | there is definitely a channel consensus of sorts | 07:18 |
| kanzure | or, rather, baseline reasonableness | 07:19 |
| kanzure | fenn: well, any xml2json recommendations? :\ | 07:19 |
| FourFire | Alright, I admit that I was not being entirely serious about either the laser comment, or the word comment, I'll try to be more strictly relevant in the future | 07:19 |
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| kanzure | and the part where you implied that i implied you're addicted to porn is really bonkers | 07:20 |
| fenn | polyus was an orbital weapons platform containing a 1 megawatt CO2 laser, launched in 1987 for the purpose of shooting down US SDI satellites. it was "man tended" and the design eventually became the first pieces of the international space station (says "MIR-2" on the side): http://www.buran-energia.com/polious/polious-desc.php | 07:20 |
| FourFire | I what now? Ok I think you were reading a bit too far into that absent comment | 07:21 |
| kanzure | 06:59 < FourFire> "<kanzure> i am highly skeptical of anyone who tries to claim that people who disgree with them are unfeeling monsters" I'm a mostly unfeeling monster, does that mean I'm addicted to porn? | 07:21 |
| FourFire | I was making a rhetoric statement, not aimed at you specifically | 07:21 |
| FourFire | you see my next line | 07:21 |
| kanzure | it's still a bad and annoying line of reasoning that doesn't work | 07:22 |
| kanzure | nobody was making the claim you were responding to | 07:22 |
| FourFire | the article was. | 07:22 |
| kanzure | the article was shit | 07:22 |
| FourFire | (but yes I get your point, It would be easier if I was less vague) | 07:22 |
| FourFire | and I was joining in on mocking it, just like you and fenn | 07:23 |
| kanzure | are crows supposed to make dog barking noises? | 07:23 |
| kanzure | fenn: http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/irc/commerce-control/archives/ | 07:24 |
| FourFire | can you demonstrate a soundclip? | 07:24 |
| FourFire | I've personally witnessed birds which can mimic chainsaws | 07:24 |
| kanzure | no, i don't have good enough microphones | 07:24 |
| FourFire | and camera shutters | 07:24 |
| fenn | can they mimic lyre birds? | 07:26 |
| dcary | fenn: Yes, keep the internal conductor spacing at least 0.1 mm, and the external conductors and component lead spacing at least 0.13 mm, and conformal coat everything, and IPC says that 90 V or 100 V is fine. | 07:27 |
| fenn | i'm sure the conformal coat helps a lot | 07:27 |
| fenn | 0.1mm is tiny | 07:27 |
| fenn | dcary: is the relationship between spacing and acceptable voltage linear? | 07:28 |
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| fenn | what the hell is that schema? <EXPLA><PRTPAGE P="v"/><HD SOURCE="HED">Explanation</HD><P>The Code of Federal Regulations is a codification of the general and permanent rules published in ... | 07:31 |
| fenn | maybe it's a schema for legal documents | 07:32 |
| fenn | ugh navigating legalxml.org is like trying to get to the ISO standards documents | 07:34 |
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| fenn | not that it helps anything, but i guess it's this: http://www.gpo.gov/fdsys/bulkdata/CFR/resources/CFRMergedXML.xsd | 07:36 |
| fenn | i have no opinions on xml to json conversion. maybe parse it into a tree with your favorite parser and dump with your favorite dumper? | 07:37 |
| FourFire | kanzure, my point is asking being, that depending on the type of dog noise, it could very well be normal for crows to make it | 07:37 |
| dcary | fenn: Yeah, even though almost all my circuits run at 5 V or less, I don't think I've ever used less than 6 mil spacing (about 0.15 mm spacing). | 07:37 |
| dcary | fenn: Yeah, it's pretty linear -- see p. 39 of http://www.the-bao.de/divers/ipc2221.pdf for details. | 07:37 |
| fenn | interesting document | 07:41 |
| fenn | a common problem i have is determining the name of a particular common connector | 07:43 |
| fenn | there are a relatively small number of IC packages, but it seems like an almost infinite number of connectors and very easy to order the wrong one | 07:45 |
| dcary | fenn: It seems that most PCB fabs now claim they can make boards with 4 mil trace / 4 mil space (which is 0.1 mm trace / 0.1 mm space). Picking a random manufacturer from my list, Cirexx claims they can do flex circuits with 0.003 inch trace/gap. | 07:49 |
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| gradstudentbot | His lab is so awkward. | 07:51 |
| fenn | if the speed of sound in water is 1484m/s then one wavelength at 10MHz is 0.1484mm so i guess it's possible that we'll need that level of spacing | 07:53 |
| fenn | i say "if" because it changes | 07:54 |
| fenn | "In salt water that is free of air bubbles or suspended sediment, sound travels at about 1560 m/s." | 07:55 |
| cluckj | if you're using a small enough tank size, the wavelength changes at (maybe) insignificant digits | 07:58 |
| fenn | anyway it's a lot smaller than radio waves of the same frequency | 08:00 |
| dcary | fenn: Do we really need so many different kinds of connectors? Bits are bits, right? https://xkcd.com/927/ | 08:02 |
| fenn | uh what "Floating point numbers are not allowed in canonical JSON." | 08:02 |
| fenn | i wonder what that grammar representation format is called | 08:04 |
| fenn | int: digit digit1-9 digits - digit1-9 - digit1-9 digits | 08:04 |
| fenn | that didn't paste correctly | 08:04 |
| fenn | dcary: not all connectors are used for transferring bits | 08:07 |
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| fenn | i do wish we had stopped at mini USB 2.0 though | 08:08 |
| juri_ | mini usb 3 is weird. :) | 08:09 |
| fenn | also completely pointless | 08:09 |
| fenn | just use sata | 08:09 |
| fenn | or ethernet. we should have just invented a tiny power over ethernet connector for TTL voltages | 08:10 |
| fenn | wtf is USB, an abomination | 08:10 |
| dcary | fenn: Yeah, the format at http://wiki.laptop.org/go/Canonical_JSON is apparently some informal variant of Extended Backus–Naur Form (EBNF). What is the name for the kinds of pretty grammar diagrams used at http://json.org/ ? | 08:11 |
| fenn | railroad diagrams? | 08:11 |
| fenn | i meant the format used to specify EBNF grammars in json | 08:11 |
| fenn | there was this "kwalify" thing for validating yaml files, but it was kinda wonky | 08:12 |
| fenn | can we just call a slash a slash, "solidus" pff | 08:13 |
| dcary | fenn: Thanks. I learned a new term today, for something I've been looking at for decades: "railroad diagram" http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/railroad_diagram | 08:15 |
| fenn | Some of the popularity of the JSON data interchange format is due to its representation in railroad diagrams.[citation needed] CITATION NEEDED | 08:16 |
| dcary | fenn: people use cables to carry power (generally in only one direction) and bits (often in both directions). What else are connectors used for? | 08:17 |
| mosasaur | I know all this talk about standards and data formats and circuit boards and chips makes you feel special and mathy engineeric but to me it's just like the discussion is stranded into some morassy lowland where it's impossible to spread my wings. | 08:18 |
| fenn | analog signals, modulated power, AC power, DC power, blood of the innocent dinosaurs | 08:19 |
| @ParahSailin | one might reasonably expect glob.glob in python to attempt to give lexicographically ordered output | 08:19 |
| @ParahSailin | one would be wrong | 08:19 |
| fenn | somehow we've managed to stick to 120V 60Hz sinusoidal for 100 years | 08:21 |
| fenn | at least in the US | 08:21 |
| cluckj | thanks technological somnambulism | 08:21 |
| fenn | it's because houses were never designed to be taken apart | 08:22 |
| fenn | tesla wished he could have switched to 1KHz | 08:23 |
| fenn | [CITATION NEEDED] | 08:23 |
| cluckj | lol | 08:24 |
| FourFire | fenn I've read your citation | 08:24 |
| * cluckj drains FourFire of blood and summons nikola's ghost | 08:24 | |
| FourFire | he regretted making AC at 60Hz because he made that better | 08:24 |
| cluckj | OH GREAT GHOST PLEASE REMEDY THIS INTERNET CITATION ATTEMPT | 08:25 |
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| kanzure | fenn: instead of parsing xml, i was thinking something like "take any word that has a certain frequency less than some threshold i pick, such that sentences/phrases say unique technology names, and the rest is skipped" | 08:28 |
| dcary | Yeah, I heard that all the early designs for the international space station used 20 kilohertz power distribution because it is technically superior to other alternatives considered -- DC, 50 Hz, 60 Hz, 400 Hz. The rumor is that the ISS switched to DC power distribution for "political reasons". | 08:45 |
| mosasaur | With the coming solar power era maybe we'd be better off with low voltage DC. | 08:46 |
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| fenn | i get 20KHz and 50/60Hz, but why 400Hz? | 08:53 |
| fenn | oh. "Every time you fly in commercial airliners, the 400HZ power produced by the alternators on each engine" | 08:53 |
| fenn | some day we'll have a wall with a matrix of plugs sorted by V and F | 08:56 |
| fenn | and auto-retracting cables | 08:58 |
| kanzure | and the wall will laugh at you | 08:59 |
| mosasaur | devices will become smaller and use less power and will be closer to our neurons | 08:59 |
| fenn | we'll exchange data as puffs of coded DNA, carried by radiation pressure from lasers in our eyes | 09:00 |
| mosasaur | wait, are you talking about sex? | 09:01 |
| fenn | woah, dude, don't be gay | 09:01 |
| fenn | it's only sex if your gametes touch | 09:02 |
| kanzure | not according to nevada law | 09:02 |
| fenn | i defer to bill clinton | 09:03 |
| fenn | excuse me, the 42nd president of the united states of america | 09:03 |
| cluckj | lol | 09:03 |
| fenn | what does "is" mean anyway | 09:05 |
| kanzure | if eleitl is asking for 2 spikerboxes from me, does that mean he probably doesn't have that equipment already | 09:05 |
| fenn | "if 'is' means is and never has been, that is not--that is one thing. If it means there is none, that was a completely true statement..." | 09:05 |
| kanzure | i find it hard to believe that he legitimately wants an introductory kit itself | 09:06 |
| fenn | does the spikerbox actually do anything or is it just a glorified audio connector? | 09:09 |
| mosasaur | fenn: let's just stick to laser encoded data streams, I mean it even works for high bandwidth satellite communication. | 09:09 |
| kanzure | comes with some silly ipad app i think | 09:09 |
| fenn | mosasaur: never underestimate the bandwidth of a station wagon full of sperm hurtling down the jupiter brain | 09:10 |
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| fenn | hoela senior | 09:15 |
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| kanzure | you overwhelmed him | 09:15 |
| fenn | should i have said "Hej då!" | 09:16 |
| kanzure | yes | 09:16 |
| mosasaur | everything moves at light speed anyway, it's just that some things have more of a time like motion vector. | 09:16 |
| gradstudentbot | If I write this paper, then maybe I can use that as my thesis? | 09:17 |
| fenn | temporal wormholes and time-like mazes, a thesis submitted by gradstudentbot to fulfill the requirements of the advanced institute of internet studies | 09:17 |
| gradstudentbot | I don't think my PI remembers me. | 09:17 |
| fenn | huh "temporal wormhole" isn't a trope? | 09:19 |
| kanzure | only an arxiv.org trope | 09:20 |
| kanzure | were you around when arxiv.org announced their new "business model"? | 09:20 |
| fenn | -_- | 09:21 |
| fenn | in the future, just don't tell me horribly depressing things | 09:21 |
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| kanzure | it's not as bad as you think | 09:22 |
| fenn | haven't we learned yet not to build centralized systems? | 09:22 |
| kanzure | parent university didn't want to fund it on their lonesome, so now some additional institutions are agreeing to chip in | 09:22 |
| kanzure | i don't think the particle physics people have ever not built a centralized system | 09:23 |
| kanzure | (http was client-server, no "he invented the interwebs!") | 09:23 |
| kanzure | *no "but he invented | 09:24 |
| fenn | i never really understood the original use case for http | 09:24 |
| fenn | was a web server supposed to be like a wiki? | 09:24 |
| kanzure | maybe it was a reaction to gopher stuff | 09:24 |
| kanzure | i should make gwern analyze the commerce control list, he likes that sort of mindless data handling, right? | 09:26 |
| fenn | http://info.cern.ch/hypertext/WWW/Proposal.html where did the "stored information" come from? | 09:27 |
| fenn | gosh i still have this problem all the time. "once you found out that the name of Joe Bloggs is listed in an incomplete description of some on-line software, it is not straightforward to find his current electronic mail address." | 09:28 |
| kanzure | this is why you must practice the art of stalk and lurk | 09:30 |
| fenn | obviously what happened was that Time Spammers invaded CERN in 1988.1 and inserted their confounding protocol into the HTTP spec | 09:30 |
| kanzure | makes sense, time travelers probably prefer particle accelerator facilities | 09:31 |
| fenn | they use the temporal monopoles generated by bogon-bogon collisions | 09:32 |
| xmj | kanzure: i'm curious. do you know what gwern actually does with his life? | 09:32 |
| kanzure | evidence suggests reading and writing, and not much else. | 09:33 |
| kanzure | i haven't seen him do much other than that | 09:33 |
| fenn | "I am a freelance writer & researcher. I have worked for or published in MIRI3 (formerly SIAI), CFAR, A Global Village, Cool Tools, Quantimodo, New World Encyclopedia, Bitcoin Weekly, Mobify, Bellroy and private clients" | 09:33 |
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| kanzure | eventually he will be doxed | 09:35 |
| fenn | "I’ve always preferred to work on existing applications and libraries than to go write my own." | 09:36 |
| kanzure | ah, so double NIH | 09:36 |
| fenn | an interesting viewpoint | 09:36 |
| kanzure | it's because i can't remember which way NIH is supposed to work | 09:36 |
| kanzure | am i supposed to prefer my own stuff, or the stuff of others? and if i do either one, which one confers NIH syndrome upon me? | 09:37 |
| fenn | put billions of taxpayer dollars in, get patents out | 09:37 |
| JayDugger | NIH syndrome? | 09:37 |
| kanzure | .wik NIH syndrome | 09:37 |
| yoleaux | "Not invented here (NIH) is the philosophy of social, corporate, or institutional cultures that avoid using or buying already existing products, research, standards, or knowledge because of their external origins and costs." — http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NIH_syndrome | 09:37 |
| fenn | NIH syndrome was discredited when it was revealed that the originator of the concept had a conflict of interest | 09:38 |
| cluckj | lol | 09:38 |
| JayDugger | Nat'l Institutes of... never mind | 09:38 |
| xmj | NIH is when you reinvent the wheel because you didn't do it yourself. | 09:38 |
| JayDugger | .wik goo | 09:38 |
| yoleaux | "Disambiguation: Goo" — http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Goo | 09:38 |
| JayDugger | That's new. | 09:38 |
| kanzure | huh? "NIH is when you reinvent the wheel because you didn't do it yourself." | 09:38 |
| JayDugger | It might have been the National Institutes of Health. | 09:38 |
| fenn | NIH is when you didn't invent the wheel because somebody else invented it first | 09:39 |
| gradstudentbot | So, there's this really good conference in Spain that I want to attend. | 09:39 |
| kanzure | gradstudentbot: have you submitted the abstract to the paper? | 09:39 |
| gradstudentbot | Are you ever going to publish that? | 09:39 |
| JayDugger | .wik help | 09:39 |
| yoleaux | "Disambiguation: Help" — http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Help | 09:39 |
| fenn | .help | 09:39 |
| yoleaux | fenn: I'm yoleaux. Type .commands to see what I can do, or see http://dpk.io/yoleaux for a quick guide. | 09:39 |
| fenn | huh | 09:40 |
| fenn | .commands | 09:40 |
| yoleaux | Commands are divided into categories: services, general, api, demos, admin. Use .commands <category> to get a list of the commands in each. | 09:40 |
| fenn | did i seriously not try that | 09:40 |
| gradstudentbot | Does this look contaminated to you? | 09:40 |
| JayDugger | Found it. Thanks. | 09:41 |
| JayDugger | .commands services | 09:41 |
| yoleaux | Commands in services: acronym, add-command, command-help, del-command, dety, geo, leo, moon, ngrams, nokiageo, o, r2r, roll, rot13, shipping, suggest, swhack, thesaurus, title, tw, twho, weather, yi. Use .help to get information about them. | 09:41 |
| mosasaur | .moon | 09:42 |
| yoleaux | Waxing Crescent (0.074) | 09:42 |
| fenn | .geo 1 times square | 09:42 |
| yoleaux | fenn: One Times Square, New York, NY 10036, USA at 40.756,-73.986 to wit http://google.com/maps?q=40.756,-73.986 | 09:42 |
| JayDugger | .g spikerbox | 09:43 |
| yoleaux | https://backyardbrains.com/products/spikerbox | 09:43 |
| JayDugger | Ah. Silly me. | 09:44 |
| kanzure | NIH: never invented haha | 09:44 |
| JayDugger | Ding! a new error code for skdb. | 09:45 |
| JayDugger | sudo skdb make -me -a nuclear_pulse_rocket returns NIH. | 09:45 |
| fenn | --me | 09:46 |
| kanzure | don't one of you owe me a technology tree | 09:46 |
| JayDugger | Fair enough, | 09:47 |
| fenn | .ngrams effete | 09:47 |
| yoleaux | :( | 09:47 |
| fenn | .ngrams effete snob | 09:47 |
| yoleaux | :( | 09:47 |
| fenn | .help ngrams | 09:47 |
| yoleaux | Compare the frequency of words/phrases in an n-grams database | 09:47 |
| fenn | that doesn't help | 09:48 |
| fenn | .ngrams "effete snob", "jaded wanker" | 09:48 |
| yoleaux | :( | 09:48 |
| kanzure | fenn: what's missing from http://pinboard.in/ ? | 09:49 |
| fenn | ads? | 09:49 |
| fenn | fluff? | 09:49 |
| kanzure | i mean for tagging | 09:50 |
| fenn | well it's not part of ikiwiki... | 09:50 |
| kanzure | do you really want all of your tagged data to be based on ikiwiki's compiler engine thing | 09:51 |
| fenn | why should i trust "one dude in his underpants" when i don't even trust google to stay around for ten years | 09:51 |
| kanzure | nah i don't mean "use this service exactly as it is" | 09:51 |
| kanzure | what's wrong with tagging things in postgresql? table schema: id, timestamp, tag id, object id | 09:52 |
| fenn | see http://gwern.net/Google%20shutdowns etc | 09:52 |
| fenn | because i hate databases | 09:52 |
| fenn | tables is all backwards/inside out from normal thinking | 09:52 |
| kanzure | why is it geometrically wrong? | 09:52 |
| fenn | database people just don't see how backwards it is because they have internalized the model | 09:52 |
| fenn | or shall i say, the model has internalized them | 09:52 |
| JayDugger | .g stockholm syndrome | 09:52 |
| yoleaux | http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stockholm_syndrome | 09:53 |
| catern | i've never internalized the model | 09:53 |
| catern | please inoculate me before I do so | 09:53 |
| fenn | would you rather have a graph or an adjacency matrix? | 09:53 |
| JayDugger | Oh, awesome. I can make snide comments and the bot drops links. :) | 09:54 |
| fenn | hint: adjacency matrices are ugly and impossible to visually parse | 09:54 |
| catern | g-graph | 09:54 |
| JayDugger | Won't improve my humor, but I'm happy. | 09:54 |
| catern | but that's a type error | 09:54 |
| catern | adjacencey matrices aren't the same things as graphs | 09:54 |
| catern | but go on | 09:54 |
| catern | (they're representations of graphs) | 09:55 |
| fenn | uh, i dont know what you're saying | 09:55 |
| catern | well you were going to say why databases are bad, please continue | 09:56 |
| gradstudentbot | Yeah, I couldn't repeat that. | 09:56 |
| gradstudentbot | Yeah, but that was only a sample size of one. | 09:56 |
| kanzure | you can do graphs with tables | 09:57 |
| fenn | databases are all set up for the computer, not for humans. so if you need to go in and fix something, or add an entry, all of a sudden you're editing 15 different tables and saying "is this a unique key" and looking up your object relational model | 09:57 |
| fenn | whereas with a yaml file, the schema is right there in every entry, and you never get a slice of an object | 09:58 |
| fenn | i know slice is the wrong word but i dont know the right word | 09:58 |
| fenn | i mean really, look at this crap edu/dropping-all-the-foreign-keys-in-your-sql-server-database/ | 09:59 |
| kanzure | mongodb subscribes to that model, but it doesn't matter because you can just use a json column in postgresql anyway | 09:59 |
| fenn | http://mafudge.syr.edu/dropping-all-the-foreign-keys-in-your-sql-server-database/ | 09:59 |
| fenn | can you look at that diagram and figure out "has a" or "is a" relationships? | 10:00 |
| kanzure | yes | 10:00 |
| fenn | is there anything showing the existence of "employee" besides the prefix? | 10:00 |
| kanzure | the only times i've had problems was when i encountered 50+ tables/models that had broken/wrong relationships between them | 10:00 |
| kanzure | oh you're right, departments is not defined correctly | 10:01 |
| kanzure | well they are just morons | 10:01 |
| fenn | my point exactly | 10:02 |
| kanzure | i can't help them if their models suck | 10:02 |
| kanzure | their models would suck anyway even if it was a pile of json or yaml | 10:02 |
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| kanzure | http://journalprices.com/ | 10:08 |
| kanzure | "Use this search engine to find internationally-published journals and rank them by price per article or citation. Here are some summary statistics for this edition. If you wish, you can also download an Excel spreadsheet that contains all of our data. You can find explanations of our data sources and methods at this link." | 10:08 |
| fenn | i'm not a database expert and i don't really feel like explaining why i hate them, so here, have a thing: http://whydoeseverythingsuck.com/2008/02/death-of-relational-database.html | 10:10 |
| kanzure | well, i don't think it was ever about knowledge in the first place | 10:11 |
| gradstudentbot | Nobody has tried this before. | 10:11 |
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| kanzure | you should try mongodb (mongo_engine or pymongo) and neo4j | 10:15 |
| fenn | look i hate databases okay | 10:15 |
| kanzure | and one of those python mongo modelers | 10:15 |
| kanzure | mongodb is just a key value store where the values are json documents | 10:16 |
| kanzure | schemaless | 10:16 |
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| fenn | what's wrong with a filesystem? a filesystem is a database, but i don't have to use some shitty interface that has no tools and no common conveniences like tab completion or whatever | 10:17 |
| catern | i like filesystems | 10:17 |
| fenn | i get that mongodb is just a big dict | 10:17 |
| kanzure | d3vz3r0: are you around? | 10:18 |
| fenn | i get that facebook and google have too many users and they have to resort to fancy tricks | 10:18 |
| fenn | but 98% of the web would be just fine with flat files and a version control system like git | 10:18 |
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| d3vz3r0 | yo | 10:19 |
| d3vz3r0 | kanzure: ^^^ | 10:20 |
| kanzure | d3vz3r0: there is some backlog stuff, but basically fenn is wondering why mongodb instead of just git plus flat files | 10:20 |
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| kanzure | or just a generic filesystem | 10:20 |
| fenn | you can even index a filesystem, see "tracker-search" or "namazu" for example | 10:21 |
| kanzure | .wik namazu | 10:21 |
| yoleaux | "Disambiguation: Namazu" — http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Namazu | 10:21 |
| d3vz3r0 | sure you can do that, but fs's aren't really built for that kind of access pattern | 10:21 |
| d3vz3r0 | you can certainly do it, things like hotmail were built entirely on a fs | 10:21 |
| d3vz3r0 | seriously, crazy shit | 10:21 |
| d3vz3r0 | the issue really is the IO overhead | 10:22 |
| fenn | why is that any different in a database | 10:22 |
| d3vz3r0 | there's a reason mongo uses one big ass file (or multiple 'tablespace' files) | 10:22 |
| d3vz3r0 | the IO overhead of the filesystem itself | 10:23 |
| d3vz3r0 | ie: opening 10k files takes a long time | 10:23 |
| fenn | why | 10:23 |
| fenn | they are just pointers | 10:23 |
| d3vz3r0 | inodes? | 10:23 |
| fenn | right | 10:23 |
| d3vz3r0 | sure, to locations on the disk | 10:23 |
| d3vz3r0 | which it has to seek to | 10:23 |
| fenn | or in memory | 10:24 |
| d3vz3r0 | if you mmapped the file | 10:24 |
| xmj | fenn: why do you need git when you have a journaled filesystem | 10:24 |
| d3vz3r0 | but that file has to be read into memory at some point | 10:24 |
| fenn | if you database is 1TB it's not going to be in RAM either | 10:24 |
| xmj | well you could implement some gitlike tool at the FS level :) | 10:24 |
| d3vz3r0 | what are you trying to do? | 10:24 |
| kanzure | d3vz3r0: unrelated, but http://kentonv.github.io/capnproto/ (instead of regular protobufs) | 10:24 |
| fenn | xmj: multiple versions, distributed editing, and journals weren't intended to be rolled back very often | 10:25 |
| gradstudentbot | I have this really good idea. I just can't get it to work. | 10:25 |
| xmj | fenn: git rebase. | 10:25 |
| fenn | xmj: i'd love to have a git filesystem | 10:25 |
| xmj | heh | 10:25 |
| xmj | i like ZFS. | 10:25 |
| JayDugger | fenn: How does git-annex fail for your purposes? | 10:26 |
| gradstudentbot | The culture got contaminated. | 10:26 |
| d3vz3r0 | what do you want from a git filesystem? I'm sincerely curious | 10:26 |
| xmj | fenn: ever tried ZFS on some box? | 10:26 |
| kanzure | d3vz3r0: originally he was asking why databases (including mongodb) are relevant or interesting | 10:26 |
| fenn | d3vz3r0: versioning? branch, merge, etc. all the reasons people use version control | 10:27 |
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| xmj | i'm sure you could implement that with zfs | 10:27 |
| fenn | kanzure: don't put words in my mouth, i was trying (halfheartedly) to explain why i hate databases | 10:27 |
| kanzure | well you brought up models, but models can be wrong on the file system just as they can be wrong in a db | 10:28 |
| fenn | apple has a "time machine" thingy, so obviously the demand is there | 10:28 |
| JayDugger | .g git-annex | 10:28 |
| yoleaux | https://git-annex.branchable.com/ | 10:28 |
| fenn | the only reason we need git-annex is because we don't have a git filesystem | 10:28 |
| xmj | what exactly does apple's time machine do? | 10:29 |
| fenn | lets you roll back to before you broke stuff | 10:29 |
| xmj | ah | 10:29 |
| fenn | it also does backups | 10:29 |
| JayDugger | I don't know git-annex well, which prompted my question. | 10:29 |
| xmj | zfs rollback <3 | 10:29 |
| d3vz3r0 | +1 for zfs | 10:29 |
| d3vz3r0 | fenn: I sometimes wishing i had a git fs too, but i ask myself how I would use it | 10:30 |
| fenn | if a filesystem isn't made to quickly open lots of little files, then maybe you should use a different filesystem | 10:30 |
| xmj | zfs has one caveat: it eats ram. | 10:31 |
| fenn | see i can implement stupid inside-out database stuff in a filesystem too; just take the n line of every file and put that in its own file, then when you need to reconstruct the original file "just" do cat * | head -n $n | tail -n1 >> the_file | 10:32 |
| d3vz3r0 | and performance will suck | 10:32 |
| fenn | of course it will suck, because it's a stupid idea | 10:32 |
| fenn | that's why i hate databases!!! | 10:32 |
| d3vz3r0 | you hate databases because filesystems would be really slow at doing similar things? | 10:33 |
| d3vz3r0 | I don't understand | 10:33 |
| xmj | he just doesn't like the idea of tables. | 10:33 |
| fenn | because they're inside out and don't let you get at the thing itself | 10:33 |
| d3vz3r0 | the 'thing' itself? | 10:33 |
| d3vz3r0 | which is what> | 10:33 |
| xmj | fenn: did you fail accounting once and start hating excel? | 10:33 |
| d3vz3r0 | ? | 10:33 |
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| d3vz3r0 | I don't like the idea of organized and structured data either | 10:34 |
| fenn | in object oriented programming the "thing" is an object | 10:34 |
| d3vz3r0 | yes | 10:34 |
| d3vz3r0 | I guess that oculd be true | 10:34 |
| xmj | there are more programming paradigms than OOP. | 10:34 |
| d3vz3r0 | or the "thing" is an association of objects, thing is pretty broad | 10:34 |
| fenn | in functional programming the "thing" could be a subtree | 10:35 |
| xmj | yay | 10:35 |
| d3vz3r0 | in the unverise "thing" could be the solution of quantum gravity.... can you use a better term than "thing"? | 10:35 |
| xmj | lists! | 10:35 |
| d3vz3r0 | lists are just flat trees | 10:35 |
| d3vz3r0 | :) | 10:35 |
| kanzure | flat graphs | 10:35 |
| fenn | 1 = 1 in natural units | 10:36 |
| d3vz3r0 | sure | 10:36 |
| fenn | -_- | 10:36 |
| * xmj puts d3vz3r0 into a cons. | 10:36 | |
| d3vz3r0 | ha | 10:36 |
| xmj | (/dev (/zero .)) | 10:36 |
| fenn | a row in a table is not usually "the thing" you want, it's part of it, or the thing is part of it | 10:37 |
| d3vz3r0 | you want the record | 10:37 |
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| catern | camlistore is interesting on the note of a "git filesystem" | 10:37 |
| d3vz3r0 | which is inside the row? | 10:37 |
| xmj | clearly | 10:38 |
| xmj | set theory and sigma algebras to the rescue | 10:38 |
| catern | it's totally immutable and uses garbage collection instead of deletion | 10:38 |
| fenn | i don't know what a record is | 10:39 |
| xmj | an element of a set ? | 10:39 |
| d3vz3r0 | ^^ | 10:39 |
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| fenn | Searching the 7IWD2-02-Foundation-2011-12.pdf, with a date of 2011-12-21 reveals that the word row appears 2277 times in the document while the word record appears only 21 times, either as the verb "record" or in some appendices in the end, in specifications of the data type correspondences for SQL data types and host language types | 10:40 |
| d3vz3r0 | in SQL terms a set of records is returned from a query | 10:40 |
| d3vz3r0 | each record is contained inside a row | 10:40 |
| d3vz3r0 | that record may or may not be the entire 'row' | 10:40 |
| fenn | a record is just a subset of a row? | 10:40 |
| d3vz3r0 | at a 10k foot view, yes | 10:40 |
| fenn | what do i call a set of records from multiple rows in multiple tables? | 10:41 |
| kanzure | joined record, iirc | 10:41 |
| d3vz3r0 | the record is the combination of the joined data set from the multiple tables | 10:42 |
| fenn | aren't people always going on and on about how evil joins are and how to minimize joins and oh geeze if only we had been smart enough to not require a join | 10:43 |
| d3vz3r0 | joins aren't evil | 10:43 |
| d3vz3r0 | they are just difficult in a distributed system | 10:43 |
| fenn | why is it always the database server that's the weak link in a distributed system? | 10:44 |
| xmj | and may be computationally expensive if tables consist of "big data" | 10:44 |
| d3vz3r0 | not requiring a join means perfectly partitioning your data set | 10:44 |
| xmj | d3vz3r0: in the past we did denormalization to our datamodel to avoid joins and rice it. | 10:44 |
| gradstudentbot | I am writing the abstract. | 10:44 |
| xmj | obviously a data model of third normal form will be slower than a more redundant, higher normal formed data model | 10:45 |
| xmj | it's a tradeoff | 10:45 |
| d3vz3r0 | yea, denormalization requires more joins | 10:45 |
| fenn | you know what i call that? a bad caching system | 10:45 |
| xmj | ? | 10:46 |
| d3vz3r0 | why is that a bad caching system? | 10:46 |
| xmj | what do those two have to do with each other? | 10:46 |
| fenn | all the denormalizing stuff, you're just rewriting the data different ways to speed up performance | 10:46 |
| kanzure | are databases really the point of failure? i thought it was stuff like service discovery | 10:46 |
| fenn | caching is storing answers so you don't have to recompute/fetch them again | 10:46 |
| d3vz3r0 | seems simple doesn't it? | 10:47 |
| xmj | youre missing the point | 10:47 |
| xmj | even with caching the generation of the first answer will differ | 10:47 |
| xmj | generation time* | 10:47 |
| d3vz3r0 | caching is reliant on determinism | 10:47 |
| xmj | yep | 10:48 |
| fenn | isn't denormalization also? | 10:48 |
| d3vz3r0 | without deterministic results from a question you ask a system, caching is impossible | 10:48 |
| d3vz3r0 | no | 10:48 |
| xmj | btw- there was a django CVE lately in which caching lead to an attacker being able to do a CSRF. | 10:48 |
| xmj | which was that again.. /looks | 10:48 |
| d3vz3r0 | 2nd hardest problem in CS: caching | 10:48 |
| fenn | but don't you have to update all the different copies in a distributed database when you modify a denormalized table? | 10:48 |
| d3vz3r0 | fenn: have you read the Dynamo paper from amazon? | 10:49 |
| xmj | ? | 10:49 |
| xmj | even when your db is normalized enough, changes will have to traverse your distributed system | 10:50 |
| d3vz3r0 | yea, he's talking about eventual consistency | 10:50 |
| d3vz3r0 | totally different thing | 10:50 |
| fenn | while it's called a "hash table", as a distributed system it's not really a table in my understanding | 10:50 |
| xmj | d3vz3r0: i hate when people talk about different things | 10:51 |
| d3vz3r0 | a "hash table" is a distributed system? | 10:51 |
| fenn | (i'm reading about dynamo) | 10:51 |
| fenn | a distributed hash table | 10:51 |
| xmj | people talking past each other happens so frequently and is sooo expensive. | 10:51 |
| d3vz3r0 | yep | 10:51 |
| fenn | as i said earlier, i'm not a database expert | 10:51 |
| fenn | "denormalizing" is a stretch | 10:51 |
| d3vz3r0 | fenn: I think you are getting terms confused | 10:51 |
| fenn | "denormalization is the process of attempting to optimize the read performance of a database by adding redundant data or by grouping data | 10:52 |
| xmj | denormalizing is when you take a normalized data model with next to no redundancy and reduce the amount of tables, adding redundant parts. | 10:52 |
| xmj | exactly | 10:52 |
| fenn | presumably this is so you don't have to do a join across tables across database servers | 10:52 |
| d3vz3r0 | typically for perforamnce rasons | 10:52 |
| d3vz3r0 | no | 10:52 |
| d3vz3r0 | well, yes, but not always | 10:52 |
| xmj | why would you join across database servers ? | 10:53 |
| xmj | apart from using a foreigh table sorta import? | 10:53 |
| fenn | i dont know | 10:53 |
| xmj | fenn: i'd keep a few masters and a few readonly slaves | 10:53 |
| xmj | but then again I'm no DBA and i'd be better off letting someone do that who really knows. | 10:53 |
| kanzure | or redis replication sets/groups where they figure that out on their own | 10:53 |
| d3vz3r0 | he means distributed joins within a sharded SQL engine I think | 10:53 |
| fenn | that centralization is your bottleneck | 10:53 |
| xmj | ahh ok | 10:53 |
| xmj | i dont know much about sharding | 10:54 |
| xmj | havent worked with a level of data that made it necessary. our "big data" wasn't so big back then | 10:54 |
| d3vz3r0 | butyou know how sets work :) | 10:54 |
| xmj | well, yes | 10:54 |
| d3vz3r0 | it's all just set theory | 10:54 |
| fenn | how is denormalizing not a cache | 10:55 |
| d3vz3r0 | simple :) | 10:55 |
| d3vz3r0 | haha | 10:55 |
| xmj | even with a sharded db, it should be invisible to the querying client, no? | 10:55 |
| dingo | d3vz3r0 makes shit up all the time don't listen to him | 10:55 |
| xmj | well maybe in slightly slower read speeds | 10:55 |
| d3vz3r0 | in theory, yes | 10:55 |
| d3vz3r0 | fuck you dingo | 10:55 |
| d3vz3r0 | :) | 10:55 |
| d3vz3r0 | just kidding buddy ;) | 10:55 |
| dingo | thats mr. fucker to you | 10:55 |
| dingo | hey look forward to seeing you later today right | 10:56 |
| d3vz3r0 | I think you got promoted to Dr. right? | 10:56 |
| d3vz3r0 | yep, I'll be there tonight | 10:56 |
| dingo | who, me? naw | 10:56 |
| kanzure | going away party? | 10:56 |
| gradstudentbot | Who got mustard on my cell culture? | 10:57 |
| d3vz3r0 | something like that | 10:57 |
| xmj | d3vz3r0: whats your trade? | 10:57 |
| d3vz3r0 | hookers | 10:57 |
| kanzure | approximately true | 10:57 |
| d3vz3r0 | :) | 10:57 |
| xmj | a pimp that idles on freenode. | 10:57 |
| xmj | nice! | 10:57 |
| d3vz3r0 | my trade is computers | 10:58 |
| kanzure | his trade is models. | 10:58 |
| xmj | thats good, i enjoy the View of a good Model. | 10:58 |
| d3vz3r0 | yea, that's probably more accurate | 10:58 |
| xmj | I really want to Control them. | 10:58 |
| d3vz3r0 | oh god | 10:58 |
| xmj | bad jokes are sometimes fun | 10:59 |
| d3vz3r0 | sometimes | 10:59 |
| kanzure | fenn: what about a strain of bamboo that requires less water | 10:59 |
| fenn | kanzure: back to the original question you asked, "do you really want all of your tagged data to be based on ikiwiki's compiler" the user would add the tag data to the file itself | 10:59 |
| kanzure | i don't think that opening up each file and looking through the wiki syntax for tags is a good idea | 10:59 |
| fenn | the compiler only uses the tag data to build a list of pages with that tag | 10:59 |
| kanzure | there can be thousands or millions of tags attached to an object | 10:59 |
| gradstudentbot | Someone's sitting at my bench space. | 10:59 |
| kanzure | probably the mustard fiend | 11:00 |
| fenn | when you add a tag to a file and save it, the compiler adds the tag to the index for that tag | 11:00 |
| fenn | or at least that's how i would do it | 11:00 |
| kanzure | but then what's my querying interface for 2, 3, 500 tags? | 11:00 |
| fenn | don't do that, asshole! | 11:01 |
| fenn | why do you need to query for 500 tags | 11:01 |
| kanzure | why shouldn't i query tagged data? | 11:01 |
| d3vz3r0 | fenn: please don't write software with that approach... | 11:01 |
| d3vz3r0 | people will always do things you've never thought of | 11:01 |
| d3vz3r0 | and would consider 'dumb', but they have very good reasons for doing what they are doing... | 11:02 |
| fenn | that doesn't mean i have to indulge them | 11:02 |
| d3vz3r0 | no, but just don't make your software fall apart because they did something you didn't plan for | 11:02 |
| fenn | it wouldn't fall apart | 11:02 |
| d3vz3r0 | ok | 11:02 |
| d3vz3r0 | I'll believe you:) | 11:03 |
| fenn | this is all hypothetical anyway | 11:03 |
| kanzure | tagging isn't | 11:03 |
| kanzure | i have >50,000 bookmarks | 11:03 |
| fenn | how many tags per bookmark, on average | 11:03 |
| fenn | what's the median number of tags per bookmark | 11:03 |
| kanzure | none, because my bookmarks suck | 11:03 |
| fenn | oh. that's suboptimal | 11:03 |
| fenn | are they in a tree? | 11:04 |
| kanzure | sometimes | 11:04 |
| fenn | is it just a list of 50k bookmarks? | 11:04 |
| xmj | 21:02:19 < d3vz3r0> no, but just don't make your software fall apart because they did something you didn't plan for | 11:05 |
| xmj | d3vz3r0: you know that joke right? "ATTENTION ATTENTION, User actually uses software for the purpose the developer intended it to be used!!!!" | 11:05 |
| d3vz3r0 | tea | 11:05 |
| d3vz3r0 | tea | 11:05 |
| d3vz3r0 | yea | 11:05 |
| d3vz3r0 | fucking typing.. | 11:05 |
| d3vz3r0 | I've been at this since like 1994, software is *never* used for its intended purpose | 11:06 |
| fenn | what was the xanadu grid system called... | 11:06 |
| fenn | generalized search tree? it was some kind of cartesian row/column interface for data of arbitrary and nonuniform number of dimensions | 11:08 |
| dingo | http://spectrum.ieee.org/img/BASIC-1398952320593.jpg | 11:08 |
| d3vz3r0 | Enfilades? | 11:09 |
| d3vz3r0 | dingo, that girl is prolly dead now | 11:09 |
| d3vz3r0 | fenn: used redis before? | 11:10 |
| fenn | no | 11:10 |
| dingo | ! use it | 11:10 |
| d3vz3r0 | ^^^ | 11:10 |
| d3vz3r0 | use it | 11:11 |
| fenn | what does it do | 11:11 |
| d3vz3r0 | seriously | 11:11 |
| d3vz3r0 | and learn how zsets work | 11:11 |
| dingo | it changes the way you write software | 11:11 |
| d3vz3r0 | http://redis.io/ | 11:11 |
| fenn | it's a hash table i can save to disk? | 11:11 |
| d3vz3r0 | dingo is right | 11:11 |
| d3vz3r0 | no, read the fucking website | 11:11 |
| d3vz3r0 | it's a data structure server | 11:11 |
| dingo | http://redis.io/topics/data-types | 11:11 |
| d3vz3r0 | don't hold his hand | 11:12 |
| d3vz3r0 | his/her | 11:12 |
| d3vz3r0 | its | 11:12 |
| fenn | okay set operations are useful | 11:12 |
| fenn | it looks like it was designed to be a database for people who realized how bad databases are but couldn't turn their minds back outside in | 11:18 |
| fenn | is a sorted set an index of other keys (a list of pointers) or does it actually contain all the data? | 11:20 |
| dingo | its about data structures and alogorithms | 11:20 |
| dingo | it offloads the issue to a "database" | 11:20 |
| dingo | its not about storing data, its about how its stored and retrieved | 11:20 |
| dingo | btree's and all that shit | 11:20 |
| dingo | its malloc() connected to tcp/ip or unix sockets | 11:21 |
| dingo | and then all those silly data structures is just the pudding | 11:21 |
| fenn | "you can use a sorted set with elements having the age of the user as the score and the ID of the user as the value" this sounds like it's just a table | 11:21 |
| fenn | i never want to have to dereference a pointer (lookup an ID) | 11:22 |
| d3vz3r0 | seriously? | 11:23 |
| fenn | is that too much to ask | 11:23 |
| d3vz3r0 | yes | 11:23 |
| juri_ | absolutely. | 11:23 |
| fenn | i'm being oppressed! help! | 11:24 |
| d3vz3r0 | I don't know how else to answer that... the concept of a pointer is probably the most fundamental thing in computers | 11:24 |
| d3vz3r0 | in CS | 11:24 |
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| catern | you could eliminate pointers with laziness maybe? | 11:28 |
| d3vz3r0 | magic | 11:28 |
| d3vz3r0 | I tried once, but I ended up creating a whole new universe that I ended up having to destroy | 11:28 |
| d3vz3r0 | total waste | 11:28 |
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| xentrac | d3vz3r0: you may not be aware of this but people were programming computers for more than a decade before they started making linked lists | 11:29 |
| fenn | i thought there was a function to get the pointer of an object in python, but i guess not | 11:29 |
| xentrac | 1945-1955 | 11:29 |
| xentrac | fenn: id | 11:29 |
| d3vz3r0 | yes, I'm aware | 11:30 |
| d3vz3r0 | but they still used symbols and pointers | 11:30 |
| xentrac | in a way, yeah: jump addresses and subroutine return addresses, for example | 11:30 |
| d3vz3r0 | fenn: you never want that, that's why you can't get it | 11:30 |
| d3vz3r0 | and you can, btw, it's the 'id(..)' method | 11:30 |
| xentrac | subroutines date from about 1945 | 11:30 |
| kanzure | .py id(object()) | 11:31 |
| yoleaux | 3721690541589520088 | 11:31 |
| kanzure | okay then | 11:31 |
| xentrac | .py '%016x' % id(object())x | 11:31 |
| yoleaux | SyntaxError: unexpected EOF while parsing (<string>, line 1) | 11:31 |
| xentrac | .py '%016x' % id(object()) | 11:31 |
| yoleaux | 33a619d4475fded8 | 11:31 |
| xentrac | .py '%016x' % id(object()) | 11:31 |
| yoleaux | 33a619d4475fded8 | 11:31 |
| kanzure | ah. | 11:31 |
| kanzure | i also would have accepted hex(id(object())) | 11:32 |
| xentrac | I forget about hex() | 11:32 |
| xentrac | d3vz3r0: and certainly the program counter and addresses of variables inside your program were pointers | 11:32 |
| d3vz3r0 | yea, you want to hex it | 11:32 |
| d3vz3r0 | exactly | 11:32 |
| d3vz3r0 | *we* are symbollic computers | 11:33 |
| d3vz3r0 | we are most certainly going to create symbolic computers | 11:33 |
| d3vz3r0 | which is what a pointer is | 11:33 |
| xentrac | a pointer is a symbolic computer? | 11:33 |
| d3vz3r0 | no, a symbol | 11:33 |
| d3vz3r0 | sorry | 11:33 |
| d3vz3r0 | a symbol that is usedwithin the symbollic computer | 11:33 |
| d3vz3r0 | a symbol to another symble | 11:33 |
| d3vz3r0 | symbol | 11:33 |
| d3vz3r0 | btw, I just started re-reading Godel, Escher, Bach | 11:34 |
| d3vz3r0 | so yea | 11:34 |
| fenn | go read some neuroscience :P | 11:34 |
| d3vz3r0 | suggestions | 11:34 |
| d3vz3r0 | ? | 11:34 |
| d3vz3r0 | I'd love to | 11:34 |
| kanzure | hm, thinking | 11:34 |
| fenn | "on intelligence" by jef hawkins is a nonstandard but helpful intro | 11:35 |
| kanzure | it is not very neurosciencey, that's more "hierarchical bayesian networks and other obvious things" | 11:35 |
| fenn | it shows how the system works though | 11:35 |
| kanzure | although he does talk about the visual cortex layers | 11:35 |
| d3vz3r0 | ah, cool | 11:37 |
| fenn | speaking of which my brain feels pretty swollen | 11:37 |
| kanzure | what about something more specific, like http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/neuro/Role%20of%20layer%206%20of%20V2%20visual%20cortex%20in%20object-recognition%20memory.pdf | 11:37 |
| kanzure | i guess that one doesn't talk about other possible models of brain matter | 11:37 |
| pyotra | d3vz3r0 You should familiarize yourself with Gerald Edelman | 11:38 |
| xentrac | so I think "*we* are symbolic computers" is kind of a narrow view | 11:38 |
| xentrac | certainly we are capable, poorly, of symbolic computation | 11:38 |
| kanzure | xentrac: i'm sure ruldolf steiner would like that view | 11:38 |
| d3vz3r0 | sure, I'll accept that | 11:38 |
| kanzure | xentrac: (obscure waldorf reference) http://wn.rsarchive.org/Lectures/OccSigns/OccSgn_index.html | 11:39 |
| xentrac | but I think the failure of 1960s AI shows that most of the cognitive things we do are not done through our symbolic computation abilities | 11:39 |
| fenn | the brain is such a noisy stochastic system that symbolic computation instantly evaporates without supporting infrastructure for the symbolic data | 11:39 |
| xentrac | I've been worried about brain swelling a lot lately, fenn | 11:40 |
| xentrac | not my brain | 11:40 |
| fenn | archetypes are the built-in infrastructure, it's why people all believe in dragons and god and straight lines | 11:41 |
| * kanzure squints | 11:41 | |
| fenn | but not very useful for doing math (maybe lines are) | 11:41 |
| cluckj | ... | 11:41 |
| xentrac | rather the brain of the drunk guy over whose head I smashed a bottle Sunday night | 11:41 |
| kanzure | uh | 11:41 |
| kanzure | so, i don't think we have neurophysiological evidence of archetype whatever | 11:41 |
| cluckj | http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Structural_anthropology | 11:41 |
| xentrac | but I'm pretty sure that the police would have contacted me if anything bad had happened to him | 11:42 |
| fenn | maybe not, but it's too common to overlook these similarities between widely differing cultures | 11:42 |
| kanzure | "essentially that all cultures are equatable" pls not now | 11:42 |
| kanzure | fenn: communication is a thing that happens | 11:42 |
| xentrac | you could call his plan to threaten me and then fight with the police "hminusroadmap" | 11:42 |
| cluckj | kanzure, relatable is a better word | 11:42 |
| kanzure | oh i read it as equitable | 11:43 |
| fenn | cluckj: can you say why you linked that page (it's not what i thought it would be) | 11:43 |
| cluckj | <fenn> archetypes are the built-in infrastructure, it's why people all believe in dragons and god and straight lines | 11:43 |
| pyotra | lool <xentrac> you could call his plan to threaten me and then fight with the police "hminusroadmap" | 11:43 |
| xentrac | kanzure: we don't have much neurophysiological evidence of most cognitive phenomena | 11:43 |
| fenn | that's what _i_ said | 11:43 |
| cluckj | yes | 11:43 |
| pyotra | Jeff Hawkins annoys me; and here's why, | 11:44 |
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| kanzure | xentrac: yes, which is why so many suggestions ("well, clearly the brain is computing based on archetypes") are boring | 11:44 |
| cluckj | I linked it because that's a scientific explanation of what you're talking about | 11:44 |
| gradstudentbot | Yeah, it's significant. | 11:44 |
| xentrac | gradstudentbot++ | 11:44 |
| gradstudentbot | Who the hell stole my pipette? | 11:44 |
| cluckj | hahaha | 11:44 |
| fenn | cluckj: that wasn't science, it was baseless philosophical rambling | 11:45 |
| gradstudentbot | Yeah, I'm familiar with the technique. Sort of. | 11:45 |
| pyotra | So crows will bend a wire into a J-shape in order to lift a stopper out of a tube with the "hook" they fashioned. Crows are birds (not mammals) and hence do not have a cortex at all. And yet neuroscience has not the foggiest clue how their brains do this. | 11:46 |
| kanzure | unfortunately, neuroanatomy people are universally awful | 11:46 |
| kanzure | so there are things called cortexes that are not what you think | 11:46 |
| kanzure | i'm sure crows have at least one cortex somewhere | 11:46 |
| pyotra | Jeff Hawkins pretension that he has discovered the key to "intelligence" as a whole must be taken as the snake oil that it is. | 11:46 |
| xentrac | like doctors in 1700 or chemists in 1200, kanzure? | 11:47 |
| cluckj | fenn, it's based on anthropological fieldwork | 11:47 |
| xentrac | I have a cortex in each kidney I think | 11:47 |
| fenn | i thought it would be something like http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Form_constants a universal human experience | 11:47 |
| cluckj | the wiki article is kinda trashy (it's wikipedia) | 11:47 |
| kanzure | fenn: it's an alternative explanation other than "neurons are causing this directly" | 11:47 |
| cluckj | yes | 11:47 |
| gradstudentbot | Oh, that's problematic. | 11:47 |
| cluckj | instead of looking down to the neuro level, it's a theory that goes up in the other direction, to bigger things | 11:47 |
| kanzure | xentrac: yes, i'm complaining about how we still don't have a good naming system or way of talking about brain matter parts | 11:47 |
| kanzure | cluckj: human conversation/gossip is bigger? | 11:48 |
| kanzure | xentrac: neuron naming is much better, for some reason | 11:48 |
| cluckj | yes, it's not at a micro-level of analysis | 11:48 |
| fenn | cluckj: "Lévi-Strauss' approach arose in large part from dialectics expounded on by Marx and Hegel, though dialectics (as a concept) dates back to Ancient Greek philosophy." how is this not philosophical rambling again? | 11:49 |
| cluckj | lol, form constants | 11:49 |
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| fenn | form constants exist | 11:49 |
| xentrac | Log in or create an account to start the Avian neuroscience article, alternatively use the Article Wizard, or add a request for it. | 11:50 |
| kanzure | _archels: is there a good neuroanatomy-specific wiki? | 11:50 |
| kanzure | article wizard? | 11:50 |
| cluckj | fenn, in his book on structural anthropology there are actual examples of what he's talking about, not just a philosophical distillation of what he's talking about | 11:50 |
| cluckj | form constants are not the same thing as structural anthropology | 11:50 |
| kanzure | wow what an awful book http://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Neuroscience/Neuroanatomy/The_Brain | 11:50 |
| xentrac | however there is https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Animal_consciousness#Birds and https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bird_intelligence | 11:51 |
| cluckj | structural anthropology is about the form and structure that beliefs take, and that those structures of sense and meaning-making are the similar things between cultures | 11:51 |
| cluckj | not merely the symbols themselves | 11:51 |
| kanzure | pyotra: i haven't been able to convince fenn about the reasons why hawkins is annoying in that sense | 11:51 |
| xentrac | and in particular https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bird_intelligence#Brain_anatomy | 11:51 |
| kanzure | huh, i didn't know the CLARITY method had a longer video published: | 11:52 |
| kanzure | .title https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c-NMfp13Uug | 11:52 |
| yoleaux | See-through brains | 11:52 |
| fenn | cluckj: form constants are a genetically encoded geometric pattern that is part of the subjective experience. there are probably others that are harder to demonstrate, but we get them confused with "culture" | 11:52 |
| xentrac | "The basal ganglia only occupy a small part of the avian brain. Instead, it seems that birds use a different part of their brain, the medio-rostral neostriatum/hyperstriatum ventrale (see also nidopallium), as the seat of their intelligence," | 11:52 |
| fenn | cluckj: they might take the form of "dragon" or "line" or "god" | 11:53 |
| xentrac | " The region was renamed to nidopallium in 2002 during the Avian Brain Nomenclature Consortium because the prior name, neostriatum, suggested that the region was used for more primitive functions as the neostriatum in mammalian brains is sub-cortical." | 11:53 |
| kanzure | avian brain.. nomenclature.. consortium. | 11:53 |
| cluckj | fenn, the shapes and symbols that you might see in form constants are a different thing than what structural anthropology addresses | 11:53 |
| fenn | i'm saying they shouldn't be | 11:53 |
| fenn | if "immutable deep structures exist in all cultures" aren't genetic, then where did they come from? | 11:54 |
| cluckj | the particular shapes/sizes/forms of symbols are irrelevant to *how* those shapes/sizes/forms are arranged in a system of meaning-making | 11:54 |
| xentrac | http://avianbrain.org/atlases.html | 11:54 |
| cluckj | (e.g. culture) | 11:54 |
| cluckj | culture is the system, symbols are the bits that carry meaning inside the system | 11:55 |
| fenn | the form of symbols is irrelevant. in any good coding system your simple symbols are used most often or when they need to be communicated quickly and with minimal ambiguity | 11:55 |
| fenn | fuck. | 11:55 |
| cluckj | lol | 11:55 |
| fenn | the form of symbols is NOT irrelevant | 11:55 |
| cluckj | it's irrelevant to how the forms are arranged in a structure | 11:56 |
| cluckj | something can look like a dragon in many cultures, but what that form-of-dragon means in many cultures is different | 11:57 |
| fenn | yeah because dragons went extinct and we reused the symbol for something else | 11:57 |
| xentrac | fenn: ASCII or UCS-4 may not be good coding systems, but nevertheless they work | 11:57 |
| fenn | xentrac: why is ASCII not a good coding system? | 11:59 |
| kanzure | "ontological framework for neuroanatomy" http://trac.biostr.washington.edu/trac/raw-attachment/wiki/minutes_6-29-07/OMtalk.6.29.07.pdf | 11:59 |
| kanzure | cc fenn | 11:59 |
| fenn | bored already | 11:59 |
| cluckj | alright :P | 11:59 |
| xentrac | fenn: by your definition; in ASCII all 128 symbols are equally simple | 11:59 |
| xentrac | it's true that symbolic processing of a system that doesn't fulfill your desideratum is more expensive | 12:00 |
| xentrac | but in most cases that doesn't stop it from being workable | 12:01 |
| xentrac | so in that sense the form of symbols is of limited, though nonzero, relevance | 12:01 |
| fenn | hint to powerpoint users: don't use cyan or yellow text on a white background | 12:02 |
| fenn | so kanzure is there a thing that will circle the relevant part of the brain for me when i click on its entry in the tree? | 12:03 |
| fenn | xentrac: i think you're confusing symbols with bits? or maybe i am confused | 12:04 |
| xentrac | well, a bit is a symbol, but I was talking about the 7-bit symbols of ASCII | 12:05 |
| fenn | a bit doesn't represent anything, so it's not a symbol | 12:05 |
| kanzure | fenn: i think you should be asking that to _archels | 12:06 |
| cluckj | o_O | 12:06 |
| xentrac | fenn: I thought about that point of view, but I rejected it | 12:06 |
| xentrac | because when a bit doesn't represent anything, it's not even a bit either | 12:06 |
| cluckj | a bit represents something because of its relation to other bits | 12:06 |
| cluckj | 1 means 1 because it's not 0 | 12:06 |
| xentrac | instead it's some arbitrary analog voltage or RF signal or bias of magnetization | 12:07 |
| xentrac | it's at the point that we decide to interpret that voltage or whatever as meaning something that it becomes a bit | 12:07 |
| cluckj | ^ | 12:07 |
| xentrac | and, by the same token, a symbol | 12:07 |
| cluckj | interpret == assign meaning | 12:07 |
| fenn | ok a bit is a binary digit | 12:08 |
| fenn | ascii is mapping binary digits to letters and punctuation | 12:09 |
| xentrac | well, 7-vectors of them, but yes | 12:09 |
| fenn | in that mapping it exhibits poor efficiency | 12:09 |
| xentrac | yes | 12:09 |
| fenn | the poor efficiency is _because_ it uses 7-vectors for all letters and punctuation | 12:09 |
| xentrac | yes | 12:10 |
| fenn | but at mapping bytes to letters, it couldn't be any more efficient | 12:10 |
| xentrac | why not? huffman can get you down to about two letters per byte on average | 12:11 |
| xentrac | http://worldpowersystems.com/J/codes/ talks about some other codes that achieve slightly over 5 bits per letter | 12:11 |
| xentrac | like ITA2 | 12:11 |
| fenn | sure there are only 26 letters and 2^5 is 32 so that's plenty | 12:12 |
| fenn | i am just playing dumb | 12:12 |
| cluckj | lol | 12:12 |
| xentrac | that was the reasoning behind ITA2, yes | 12:12 |
| fenn | it doesn't explain why huffman codes are efficient though (or arithmetic coding) | 12:13 |
| cluckj | but it doesn't matter if the letters you're encoding are greek or cyrillic, you're going to be able to do them using the same structure | 12:13 |
| xentrac | that's because, as you said, in any good coding system your simple symbols are used most often | 12:14 |
| xentrac | which is why the relevance of the form of the symbols is nonzero | 12:14 |
| fenn | only two letters per byte? | 12:15 |
| fenn | most internet traffic is just "lol" and "narf" | 12:16 |
| ThomasEgi | most internet traffic is video data. | 12:16 |
| fenn | and <!DOCTYPE html PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD XHTML 1.0 Transitional//EN" "http://www.w3.org | 12:16 |
| xentrac | bzip2 can usually get almost three letters per byte | 12:17 |
| fenn | ThomasEgi: depends whether you count the backbone or the leaf branches | 12:18 |
| fenn | i really hope there isn't a lot of video being sent over the backbone | 12:18 |
| ThomasEgi | that's splitting hairs ;). biggest shares go to web and video (with video still growing fast), then there's a bit of file transfering.. the rest is peanuts | 12:19 |
| cluckj | the rest is lol and narf | 12:19 |
| cluckj | and cat pictures... | 12:20 |
| fenn | why doent netflix and youtube put their highest viewed videos of the day on local nodes? | 12:20 |
| fenn | guh what am i trying to say | 12:20 |
| fenn | what's the code for "code switch" | 12:21 |
| cluckj | translate? | 12:21 |
| kanzure | they do cdn/caching stuff | 12:21 |
| fenn | why is video traffic a large part of internet traffic? | 12:21 |
| kanzure | sometimes you have to block your isp's ip addresses so that you can get to the actual youtube servers instead of the cached content | 12:21 |
| cluckj | cat videos > cat pics | 12:22 |
| gradstudentbot | I'm glad you brought that up, I'm going to do that right now. | 12:22 |
| fenn | so comcast actually caches youtube videos? | 12:23 |
| kanzure | i'm not sure if it's the isp itself, or if youtbe struck up deals, or if youtube is just using some geographically-distributed cdn service like akamai or what | 12:23 |
| kanzure | *youtube | 12:23 |
| fenn | isn't it in comcast's interest to cache youtube/netflix because they have to pay for that bandwidth otherwise? | 12:25 |
| fenn | are they just stupid or is there a good reason not to cache? | 12:25 |
| fenn | basically, why doesn't the internet work like a big DHT | 12:25 |
| fenn | or freenet | 12:25 |
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| * fenn gets on his knees and shakes his fist at the heavens | 12:26 | |
| fenn | damn you, cloud! | 12:26 |
| cluckj | lol | 12:29 |
| kanzure | INSTANCE_09956',5,'name','','\0',0,3,'Left posterior seventh thoracic radicular vein',NULL),('KB_INSTANCE_09956',5,'au | 12:29 |
| kanzure | Submucosa of accessory superior segmental bronchus | 12:29 |
| kanzure | here's a query interface, but no brain map visualization thing http://fma.biostr.washington.edu:8080/noqafma/query.jsp | 12:30 |
| fenn | cluckj: the cat video phenomenon is possibly the sort of thing i'm talking about | 12:30 |
| cluckj | oh? | 12:31 |
| fenn | "why are people so into cats" <evolutionary explanation about babies and neoteny> | 12:31 |
| kanzure | <type>DatabaseError</type> | 12:32 |
| kanzure | this is useless | 12:32 |
| fenn | <type type="DatabaseError" id="theError">Error!</type> | 12:32 |
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| kanzure | i dunno, not convinced http://brancusi.usc.edu/ontology/ontology-details.php?id=116 | 12:34 |
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| cluckj | fenn, that doesn't tell you about the structure of the system though | 12:35 |
| cluckj | sorry, I had to let some bees off my porch before my cat decided to eat them | 12:36 |
| fenn | xentrac: morse code makes so much more sense as a tree than as a table | 12:37 |
| fenn | http://www.learnmorsecode.com/ | 12:37 |
| cluckj | you might have a nice, neat, biological explanation for why that one particular thing is so popular | 12:39 |
| kanzure | .wik neuronames | 12:39 |
| cluckj | but that biological explanation is predicated on having already decided that babies are important | 12:39 |
| yoleaux | "NeuroNames is an integrated nomenclature for structures in the brain and spinal cord of the four species most studied by neuroscientists: human, macaque, rat and mouse. It offers a standard, controlled vocabulary of common names for structures, which is suitable for unambiguous neuroanatomical indexing of information in digital databases." — http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NeuroNames | 12:39 |
| kanzure | "BrainInfo helps one identify structures in the brain. One can either search by a structure name or locate the structure in a brain atlas and get information such as its location in the classical brain hierarchy, images of the structure, what cells it has, its connections and genes expressed there. Information can be accessed by any of some 16,000 synonyms in eight languages." | 12:39 |
| cluckj | so cats == babies == reproduction | 12:39 |
| fenn | i think it's messier than that | 12:40 |
| cluckj | what that can show you is the connections between those different symbols, which is the structure that we were talking about earlier | 12:40 |
| cluckj | oh it's waaaaaay messier than that | 12:40 |
| cluckj | structural anthro is saying that the connections between those concepts are the structures that make up culture, not the concepts/signs/symbols themselves | 12:41 |
| kanzure | number of 'a's correlates to number of powers of ten to include? | 12:41 |
| fenn | where am i, how did i get here | 12:43 |
| cluckj | kanzure, yeah | 12:43 |
| cluckj | well no | 12:43 |
| cluckj | not even close | 12:43 |
| kanzure | here is a terrible semantic mediawiki for neuroanatomy: http://neurolex.org/wiki/Category:Hippocampal_formation | 12:43 |
| @_archels | kanzure: wikis do not seem the ideal data structure for describing neuroanatomy | 12:43 |
| kanzure | duh | 12:43 |
| kanzure | i absolutely agree | 12:43 |
| kanzure | apparently the hippocampus is also called "ammon's horn" | 12:44 |
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| @_archels | are you playing with the Allen Brain Atlas? | 12:44 |
| kanzure | _archels: i am having trouble evaluating the level of knowledge each author (of each neuroscience-related paper that i read) regarding neuroanatomy, because there's not only a naming problem but also a "what connects where" problem | 12:45 |
| @_archels | the cornus ammonis areas refer to subparts of the hippocampus afaik, not the whole structure | 12:45 |
| kanzure | kdfladjfkldajfka | 12:45 |
| cluckj | oh dear | 12:45 |
| @_archels | heh, heh | 12:46 |
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| @_archels | yeah, it's a mess | 12:46 |
| fenn | it's all partially overlapping sets | 12:46 |
| kanzure | well, we should unmess it | 12:46 |
| @_archels | we're organising a session on brain atlasing in our upcoming symposium. join us! | 12:46 |
| cluckj | it'd be nice if there were some clean lines between all those bits of brain like there are in the rest of the body | 12:46 |
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| fenn | yeah, like the butchers diagram of the pig | 12:47 |
| kanzure | there are actually a number of such lines | 12:47 |
| cluckj | yeah | 12:47 |
| kanzure | but now you have to apply that line map against the other existing name datasets ;) | 12:47 |
| kanzure | and their names alone don't tell me about which neurons are projecting inwards or outwards | 12:47 |
| kanzure | (and from where or to where) | 12:47 |
| fenn | that's not important for chopping it into pieces | 12:47 |
| fenn | just tell me where to cut | 12:47 |
| kanzure | everywhere. in 1 micron intervals. | 12:48 |
| * fenn sharpens furiously | 12:48 | |
| kanzure | why is it still a mess | 12:49 |
| fenn | is there a schematic of the brain? instead of just a circuit layout | 12:49 |
| kanzure | superkuh had one.. | 12:49 |
| fenn | i mean there's no circuit layout either | 12:49 |
| kanzure | it had giant arrows and rectangles | 12:49 |
| fenn | but a description of functions and pathways | 12:50 |
| @_archels | the problem is that there are too many "schematics of the brain" and we don't know how to integrate them | 12:50 |
| cluckj | ooo rectangles | 12:50 |
| kanzure | yeah, a circuit graph would be much nicer | 12:50 |
| kanzure | and then you can just do clustering or whatever | 12:50 |
| fenn | it's common to have multiple schematics of a complex circuit | 12:50 |
| cluckj | so a map of the connections would be much better than a map of names | 12:50 |
| cluckj | hmmmmmm | 12:50 |
| fenn | olaf sporns did some stuff based on white matter tracts (diffusion tensor imaging) | 12:52 |
| fenn | but that's like, data | 12:52 |
| kanzure | why is data bad? | 12:52 |
| fenn | it's expensive to communicate verbally | 12:53 |
| kanzure | videos of some guy riding elevators https://www.youtube.com/user/gluse | 12:54 |
| kanzure | https://www.youtube.com/user/SMOKERSOFCIGARSPIPES/ "See also: A man who has uploaded 6,300 videos and counting of him doing nothing but smoking pipes and grumbling unintelligible streams of broken English that are conveniently transcribed in the description" | 12:54 |
| cluckj | thank you youtube for archiving those valuable insights | 12:55 |
| kanzure | huh, ok "could wearable technology that counts words heard (a key indicator of cognitive development) be used to improve quality of early childhood education?" | 12:56 |
| kanzure | yes i guess word counting would be a nice metric to have | 12:56 |
| fenn | words heard? | 12:57 |
| fenn | you mean words spoken? | 12:58 |
| kanzure | clearly there might be problems if no words are heard or spoken | 12:58 |
| kanzure | oops i mean "and" | 12:58 |
| fenn | otherwise your wearable device has to dig into the brain to see if the words were perceived or not | 12:58 |
| kanzure | i'm okay with someone not talking, but how can they hear if nobody speaks to them? | 12:58 |
| fenn | right | 12:59 |
| kanzure | (fuck talking) | 12:59 |
| cluckj | irc 4 lyfe | 12:59 |
| fenn | but they could be as dumb as a rock and have lots of words be spoken to them (this counts as words heard) | 12:59 |
| kanzure | fenn: i think that's fine | 13:00 |
| fenn | or they could be deaf and the metric is useless | 13:00 |
| @_archels | kanzure: those lift videos are hilarious | 13:00 |
| cluckj | or you could be mute and the metric is useless | 13:00 |
| kanzure | "number of words spoken, in plain sight of eyes" | 13:00 |
| fenn | ok i shouldn't have used "dumb" to mean "low cognitive development" | 13:01 |
| fenn | fuck english | 13:01 |
| cluckj | hahaha | 13:01 |
| fenn | i kinda wish sapir-whorf were true | 13:02 |
| cluckj | it sure would be convenient | 13:03 |
| fenn | "things that are untranslatable" actually turn out to just be really long explanations that make the joke unfunny | 13:03 |
| cluckj | welcome to the human race | 13:05 |
| kanzure | "1st Call For Papers, 21th Annual Tcl/Tk Conference 2014" | 13:07 |
| kanzure | narf | 13:07 |
| fenn | shit. i think the cat drugs were making me sick (cat has monthly flea medicine on it sitting next to me) | 13:11 |
| fenn | please disregard the past 5 hours of semi-conscious rambling | 13:12 |
| catern | do you still hate databases? | 13:14 |
| kanzure | pfft i've been speaking unconsciously for years | 13:14 |
| cluckj | you were pretty coherent | 13:14 |
| cluckj | I was able to discern what you were trying to say, and attempt to convince you otherwise :P | 13:18 |
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| chris_99 | http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-2617705/Brain-implant-restore-MEMORIES-wounded-soldiers-Alzheimers-sufferers-ethical.html | 13:31 |
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| kanzure | amusing anti-bitcoin arguments https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7675418 | 13:55 |
| kanzure | .title http://www.nytimes.com/2014/05/01/technology/after-alibaba-ipo-us-web-giants-may-stop-ignoring-chinese-rivals.html?_r=0 | 14:23 |
| yoleaux | kanzure: Sorry: that command is a web-service, but its response was too long. | 14:23 |
| kanzure | okie dokie | 14:25 |
| kanzure | "They have a stealth 'target vertical' shopping experience that's developing right now in the Bay Area, however, they're significantly behind schedule, having trouble integrating teams from several locals and their product is dubiously "useful" at this stage of the game." | 14:27 |
| kanzure | huh. that's weird. | 14:27 |
| kanzure | i prefer the original alibaba | 14:28 |
| kanzure | alibaba facebook admins: <meta property="fb:admins" content="100002227819697,124207444332529" /> | 14:35 |
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| kanzure | i wonder if they are deleting data from their provisioned storage http://buy.aliyun.com/?spm=5176.383338.21.3.H0DCAU | 14:46 |
| kanzure | alibaba had a remote code execution vulnerability in 2007, whee http://seclists.org/fulldisclosure/2007/Feb/146 | 14:53 |
| kanzure | oh, that's slightly false, oops | 14:54 |
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| * nsh is looking for things to watch with clever in them | 16:14 | |
| nsh | like... science! | 16:14 |
| nsh | can anyone point me at some good audiovisual science learns? | 16:14 |
| sheena | um | 16:16 |
| sheena | how advanced? | 16:16 |
| sheena | nsh: and topic? | 16:16 |
| kanzure | nsh: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c-NMfp13Uug | 16:16 |
| nsh | all of the topics, all of the advancements. i mean, it would be nice if it didn't all go over my head, but it'd pick that over low information density any time | 16:17 |
| nsh | .t | 16:17 |
| yoleaux | Thu, 01 May 2014 23:17:02 UTC | 16:17 |
| nsh | .title https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c-NMfp13Uug | 16:17 |
| yoleaux | See-through brains | 16:17 |
| nsh | neat | 16:18 |
| kanzure | nsh: this one is an oldie but a goodie (and longie) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9gFI7o69VJM&t=4m | 16:18 |
| kanzure | d3vz3r0: you might like that video as well (it's about an hour long, about neuroscience) | 16:19 |
| sheena | youtubey things like brain scoop, targetted for non-academic audiences.... vs coursera and udacity higher education courses.. | 16:20 |
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| nsh | ty | 16:26 |
| gnusha | https://secure.diyhpl.us/cgit/diyhpluswiki/commit/?id=7d77387e Bryan Bishop: partial transcript of markram 2006 talk | 16:49 |
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| kanzure | fenn, if you use 2 wires per element does it matter where each of the 2 wires are placed on its surface | 16:56 |
| kanzure | since you said capacitor, i would guess yes | 16:56 |
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| kanzure | http://spectrum.ieee.org/aerospace/astrophysics/the-hunt-for-the-invisible-axion | 17:12 |
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| kanzure | beep boop | 19:20 |
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| catern | i saw that kanzure | 19:30 |
| catern | you can't hide your robot nature | 19:30 |
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| --- Log closed Fri May 02 00:00:57 2014 | ||
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