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| nmz787 | anyone know what panos zavos charges for his fertility/cloning service? | 00:46 |
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| nmz787 | I wonder if they're doing work on just growing certain organs, rather than whole humans... i.e. brainless I guess... | 00:47 |
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| AshleyWaffle | http://www.northwestern.edu/newscenter/stories/2014/04/experimental-drug-prolongs-life-span-in-mice.html | 01:14 |
| AshleyWaffle | looks like they may have done it | 01:14 |
| AshleyWaffle | anti-aging drug | 01:14 |
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| AshleyWaffle | 4x for mice | 01:14 |
| AshleyWaffle | you know what to do people! :D | 01:14 |
| * AshleyWaffle nibbles ParahSailin | 01:14 | |
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| xentrac | AshleyWaffle: in a mouse model of progeria | 01:36 |
| xentrac | like Leon Botha: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leon_Botha | 01:37 |
| xentrac | sounds very promising, of course, but people who die of progeria don't get a lot of the diseases that actual old people get | 01:39 |
| gradstudentbot | I am completely satisfied with the size of my bench space. | 01:40 |
| xentrac | in particular, senility and cancer | 01:41 |
| cpopell`relaxing | xentrac: trouble sleeping, or up early? | 01:41 |
| xentrac | oh, I just lost track of time, that's all | 01:42 |
| cpopell`relaxing | hahaha | 01:42 |
| cpopell`relaxing | that does tend to happen | 01:42 |
| xentrac | AshleyWaffle: anyway, dying of cancer at 73 is certainly better than dying of a heart attack at 70 in my book | 01:42 |
| xentrac | but if that's all it is... | 01:43 |
| xentrac | cpopell`relaxing: got a positive response from Dartnell: http://www.reddit.com/r/IAmA/comments/24jndm/i_am_the_author_of_the_knowledge_how_to_rebuild/ch892wh | 01:43 |
| cpopell`relaxing | fantastic | 01:44 |
| cpopell`relaxing | sounds like he's interested in collaborating as well | 01:45 |
| fenn | skimming http://topshelfbook.com/the-knowledge-how-to-rebuild-our-world-from-scratch/ | 02:04 |
| fenn | a book format is useful in a disaster where you don't have electricity, computers are broken/nuked/nanobotted/infected/forbidden | 02:06 |
| xentrac | a computer format is useful when you want to print out a reduced-size copy for when the book is forbidden ;) | 02:07 |
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| fenn | "realistically, no matter what, i am not going to be able to convince many hardware package maintainers not to write large amounts of plaintext documentation" this is part of why i have taken it upon myself to create an ontological assimilator | 02:13 |
| xentrac | :) | 02:14 |
| fenn | even plaintext documentation is better than no documentation, but often it's limited by the same laziness that led them to write in plain text anyway | 02:14 |
| fenn | but there's a fair amount of datasheet material out there with good data but in arbitrary pdf formats | 02:15 |
| fenn | xentrac: why even print it out if books are forbidden? | 02:16 |
| xentrac | perhaps you can print that book out before it's forbidden | 02:16 |
| xentrac | and hide it in your shoe | 02:16 |
| fenn | oh hey a kragen-tol linkdump | 02:17 |
| xentrac | not just kragen-tol | 02:17 |
| xentrac | or bury it in a plastic bag a few meters deep | 02:17 |
| xentrac | ideally above the water table | 02:17 |
| fenn | or create a distributed network of self replicating radio transmitters that constantly broadcast the source | 02:17 |
| xentrac | one of the links in there is about that | 02:18 |
| fenn | what was the broadcast thingy called .. hmm. where did i even read that? it was about spectrum allocation | 02:18 |
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| xentrac | except for the "self-replicating" part | 02:18 |
| xentrac | but that's both difficult to build and easy to crack down on | 02:19 |
| fenn | i dunno, ever dealt with an "annoy-o-tron"? | 02:20 |
| xentrac | no | 02:21 |
| fenn | its a little electronic critter that chirps randomly at a high pitched tone that makes it hard to locate | 02:21 |
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| xentrac | you can just burn down the house it's in | 02:22 |
| fenn | oh, simple | 02:22 |
| xentrac | I mean, if your premise is that the person who it belongs to is a witch | 02:23 |
| fenn | i meant something that could be dropped out of airplanes, just a waif of a non-reflective solar panel and a phased array antenna and some flash storage | 02:23 |
| xentrac | a munchkin | 02:23 |
| fenn | not a boat anchor that requires constant tending and religious rituals | 02:23 |
| fenn | fwiw air-dropping propaganda is a well established tradition | 02:24 |
| xentrac | yes. it often results in the death of those caught with it | 02:25 |
| gradstudentbot | Got halfway through figuring out all the cell signalling molecules in psoriasis when the cells died and the data couldn't be replicated, so psoriasis is really hard to cure guys don't get it | 02:25 |
| xentrac | munchkins: http://www.xent.com/FoRK-archive/sept98/0217.html | 02:25 |
| fenn | ok but if you're lining your huts with waterproof propaganda leaflets, at least it's plausible denaiability | 02:25 |
| xentrac | my theory is that a flash drive whose data retention is rated at only 10 years and that is periodically transmitting long-distance signals to keep in touch has worse survival characteristics than a piece of paper | 02:27 |
| fenn | should i skip down to "free decentralized planetary net | 02:27 |
| xentrac | probably | 02:27 |
| xentrac | his grad student self-flagellation is maybe not that interesting | 02:28 |
| fenn | i'd wager a widely scattered library of munchkins has a better survival chance than the library of alexandria did | 02:28 |
| xentrac | yes, but that's because the scrolls in Alexandria were almost unique | 02:29 |
| xentrac | in some cases they were the only copy; in many cases they were one of only two copies | 02:29 |
| xentrac | a widely scattered library of microfilm is probably more survivable than a widely scattered library of munchkins | 02:30 |
| fenn | why? | 02:30 |
| xentrac | because the munchkins are emitting signals that make them findable, while the paper is not | 02:31 |
| xentrac | and because the munchkins can only survive decades of quiescence at best, more likely years, while the paper can survive millennia | 02:31 |
| fenn | okay you could randomly allocate some percentage of munchkins to be silent | 02:32 |
| fenn | i agree flash wasn't designed for long term use | 02:32 |
| fenn | data compression makes the situation even worse | 02:32 |
| xentrac | you can compress data on paper too | 02:32 |
| xentrac | it may be worth the tradeoff | 02:32 |
| fenn | but you get redundancy and checksums and digital-ness out of the bargain | 02:33 |
| fenn | i mean real redundancy, not fake book-redundancy | 02:33 |
| xentrac | yes, I've written up the munchkins scenario at http://canonical.org/~kragen/eotf | 02:33 |
| xentrac | I think it might be a good idea | 02:34 |
| fenn | how did i not find this before now? | 02:34 |
| xentrac | you didn't click the links in my comment | 02:34 |
| fenn | i mean way before now | 02:34 |
| xentrac | because it's very unfinished | 02:34 |
| fenn | like, paul fernhout should have linked to the rohit khare munchkins thing at least | 02:35 |
| xentrac | oh, rohit's thing | 02:35 |
| xentrac | I don't know, rohit got distracted by doing a startup | 02:35 |
| xentrac | the mobile people we were hoping would fund it didn't | 02:35 |
| xentrac | this was 2000 | 02:36 |
| xentrac | then the Kleiner-installed management pushed Rohit out of the company | 02:36 |
| xentrac | that wasn't very related to munchkins | 02:36 |
| xentrac | more recently he did another startup that was even less related to munchkins and got aquihired by Google | 02:36 |
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| fenn | a silent munchkin could also be programmed to spontaneously reactivate in probability 1/log(years elapsed) (or what have you) | 02:37 |
| xentrac | yeah, if you have batteries | 02:37 |
| fenn | what company was this? | 02:37 |
| xentrac | which one? | 02:37 |
| fenn | "Kleiner-installed management pushed Rohit out of the company" | 02:38 |
| xentrac | KnowNow | 02:38 |
| xentrac | common story though | 02:38 |
| xentrac | you could replace "Rohit" with a hundred names | 02:38 |
| fenn | uh oh, redlinked | 02:39 |
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| xentrac | what is? | 02:39 |
| fenn | gah dillo's copy link address doesn't work right | 02:40 |
| fenn | https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/KnowNow | 02:40 |
| xentrac | no, it wasn't that notable in the end | 02:41 |
| xentrac | the new management was clueless | 02:41 |
| fenn | anyway "rohit khare" sounded familiar for some reason | 02:41 |
| xentrac | yeah, he's better known than KnowNow is | 02:41 |
| xentrac | reportedly the KnowNow VP who phoned me at one point to see if he could get me to sign shareholder consent for some Nth round of financing said I was the most unpleasant person he'd ever talked to | 02:42 |
| xentrac | http://www.crunchbase.com/organization/knownow | 02:42 |
| fenn | i like the idea of microformats, no idea if it's been widely adopted or not at all | 02:43 |
| xentrac | http://venturebeat.com/2006/11/01/knownow-gets-13m-more-for-rss-delivery-a-lot-of-cash/ | 02:43 |
| mosasaur | no wonder you're here xentrac | 02:43 |
| xentrac | it was adopted for a while, but seems to have died back | 02:43 |
| xentrac | mosasaur: ;) | 02:43 |
| fenn | obviously the problem was he was trying to get you to sign something through a telephone | 02:44 |
| xentrac | it was more that I felt that the management of the company was executing a kind of controlled flight into terrain | 02:45 |
| xentrac | I didn't have enough equity that they actually needed my consent | 02:46 |
| xentrac | they just needed a majority | 02:46 |
| xentrac | well, and me not to sue them for breach of fiduciary duty | 02:47 |
| fenn | did you live in menlo park? 304 o'keefe street is pretty close to techshop | 02:48 |
| fenn | maybe that was years later tho | 02:49 |
| mosasaur | xentrac: did you send them a letter like this? http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:qnrq.se/why-i-wont-work-for-google/ | 02:49 |
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| * mosasaur remembers having mailed something similar but not quite as good | 02:51 | |
| fenn | gee i wish my dad was that cool | 02:51 |
| fenn | "He told me that in the future the world’s power structures would depend much on what I would today categorize as cypherpunks and hackers." | 02:51 |
| gradstudentbot | It's not really significant, but there's definitely a trend. | 02:52 |
| xentrac | no, I just talked to him on the phone | 02:52 |
| xentrac | my "why I won't work for Google" is at http://lists.canonical.org/pipermail/kragen-tol/2011-August/000938.html | 02:53 |
| xentrac | .title | 02:53 |
| yoleaux | Why I do not want to work at Google | 02:53 |
| xentrac | fenn: I don't know where O'Keefe street is | 02:53 |
| mosasaur | wow it seems everyone has one nowadays | 02:55 |
| xentrac | I lived in Menlo Park for a while | 02:56 |
| xentrac | pre-TechShop though | 02:56 |
| fenn | such a weird place. "here is where the transistor was invented" says a little bronze plaque in a mulch bed next to a mexican grocery store parking lot | 02:57 |
| xentrac | that's weird, I thought that was on the East Coast | 02:58 |
| fenn | it's in East Palo Alto | 02:59 |
| xentrac | huh | 03:00 |
| xentrac | https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Walter_Brattain says he lived in Summit, New Jersey, until he moved to Seattle | 03:01 |
| xentrac | https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Bardeen lived in Summit too | 03:01 |
| xentrac | I don't think they invented the transistor in East Palo Alto | 03:03 |
| mosasaur | xentrac: Nice letter, though you seem to have left out the part about being flattered by the offer. My letter had that but unfortunately not much else than that I would not fit in with a culture based on academic credential selection, and probably hierarchy based on the same. | 03:03 |
| xentrac | mosasaur: I didn't have an offer | 03:03 |
| fenn | Shockley Transistor on San Antonio Road in Mountain View (this is the sign on wikipedia on streetview) http://goo.gl/maps/3JfZB | 03:04 |
| fenn | "site of first silicon device and research manufacturing company in silicon valley. the research conducted here led to the development of the silicon valley. 1958" | 03:05 |
| xentrac | ahh | 03:05 |
| xentrac | well that makes more sense | 03:05 |
| mosasaur | Then it's even more admirable to preemptively write that, even though it's not clear you did precommit to acting accordingly. | 03:05 |
| xentrac | there's a photo of it on https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shockley_Semiconductor_Laboratory | 03:05 |
| xentrac | mosasaur: I didn't think it was admirable or the opposite; I was just saying what I thought | 03:06 |
| mosasaur | xentrac: same here | 03:06 |
| fenn | mosasaur: people i know at google don't seem to have much of a problem with hierarchies based on crededntials.. they mostly complain "fuck i hate C++" or "nobody is ever going to use this software" | 03:06 |
| mosasaur | except i think it was admirable | 03:07 |
| xentrac | heh | 03:07 |
| xentrac | I feel like I'm being complimented on taking a shit | 03:07 |
| mosasaur | fenn: from what I hear they don't like being managed | 03:08 |
| fenn | well it's not a startup | 03:08 |
| fenn | i wonder if being able to do things unconsciously (no need to context swapping) is an important trait of programmers | 03:10 |
| mosasaur | It was some academic incubator with all the accompanying advantages, nothing special. | 03:10 |
| fenn | apparently i just let the cat in but i don't remember doing it | 03:10 |
| mosasaur | it's not all about you fenn | 03:11 |
| xentrac | fenn: it's an important trait of people | 03:11 |
| fenn | me me me me me | 03:11 |
| xentrac | without it we can't walk and chew gum | 03:11 |
| fenn | mosasaur: please invent a syntax where i don't have to start sentences with "I" all the time | 03:11 |
| fenn | s/i/one/ just makes YOU sound pretentious | 03:12 |
| mosasaur | It all started with ey feminists, and now look at where it got us. | 03:12 |
| xentrac | fenn: aparentemente recién dejé entrar al gato pero no me acuerdo de hacerlo | 03:13 |
| fenn | no fair, and besides you still have to conjugate the verb as first person | 03:13 |
| fenn | "the cat was let in, but there is no record of it having been done" | 03:14 |
| fenn | MS word used to give you shit about using the passive tense, and i'm like "hello, it's a research paper" | 03:14 |
| mosasaur | down with first personism | 03:14 |
| xentrac | you mean passive voice | 03:15 |
| mosasaur | they think you should go too | 03:15 |
| gradstudentbot | Got halfway through figuring out all the cell signalling molecules in psoriasis when the cells died and the data couldn't be replicated, so psoriasis is really hard to cure guys don't get it | 03:17 |
| fenn | i can't reconcile "down with first personism" with general semantics and e-prime | 03:18 |
| fenn | we all experience the world subjectively | 03:18 |
| fenn | talking in third person sounds like you have dissociative identity disorder | 03:19 |
| fenn | anyway, menlo park chews up and spits out even the greatest, with barely a plaque to commemorate them | 03:20 |
| mosasaur | The problem is deeper, they weren't even all that great to begin with, they just had a lot of initial velocity. | 03:23 |
| mosasaur | It's the ion thrusters that will outrun them all in the end. | 03:23 |
| fenn | shockley talked about intelligence differences and got a lot of shit for it. i think he was even fired from stanford because of it | 03:26 |
| fenn | "Shockley argued that the higher rate of reproduction among the less intelligent was having a dysgenic effect, and that a drop in average intelligence would ultimately lead to a decline in civilization. Shockley advocated that the scientific community should seriously investigate questions of heredity, intelligence, and demographic trends, and suggest policy changes if he was proven right." | 03:27 |
| fenn | personally i think nutrition and cultural institutions are more important, but there it is | 03:27 |
| mosasaur | maybe he should be fired, if he didn't define intelligence as the potential to self modify, which would enable even less intelligent people to have some social mobility | 03:28 |
| fenn | okay but the same people arguing against "eugenics" are arguing against germ line modification of any sort | 03:28 |
| fenn | and nootropics and cryptocurrencies and all your favorite H+ stuff | 03:29 |
| fenn | i don't think i'm over-generalizing here | 03:29 |
| fenn | i'm comfortable expressing my belief in a genetic contribution to "intelligence" (whatever that is, IQ scores at least) because i also believe in the right to self-modify | 03:30 |
| fenn | anyway shockley was an electrical engineer, not a biologist | 03:31 |
| mosasaur | As I said the problem is deeper, like with assuming math ability is built in and fixed, instead of just having an uninterrupted build up sequence of developmental insights. | 03:32 |
| mosasaur | Not that I am denying that some people have better hardware, just that the limits are probably not where we think they are. | 03:33 |
| fenn | if you boost the average IQ score by 10 points that means the total number of literal geniuses increases by 21 TIMES | 03:37 |
| fenn | assuming a normal distribution | 03:37 |
| fenn | 10 iq points is not a lot on its own, but 21 times the number of geniuses running around makes a difference | 03:38 |
| mosasaur | And, like is the case with python sorting algorithms, it turns out people were further ahead even before one started thinking about it: http://lists.canonical.org/pipermail/kragen-tol/2011-August/000939.html | 03:38 |
| mosasaur | .tilte | 03:38 |
| mosasaur | .title | 03:38 |
| yoleaux | launching things into orbit with a maglev track from a dirigibleat the top of the mesosphere | 03:38 |
| fenn | mosasaur: see http://yarchive.net/space/ | 03:39 |
| fenn | in particular the "exotics" section | 03:39 |
| fenn | buried ancient treasure | 03:40 |
| fenn | regarding xentrac's space gun objections, ONE could use a laser to ionize the air ahead of the spaceship-bullet and create a corridor of vacuum to fly through | 03:42 |
| fenn | a big problem is circularizing the orbit, which has to be done within less than one orbit or you hit the ground on the way back around | 03:43 |
| mosasaur | fenn: The genius concept is part of the problem, because it buries Nietzsche's superman (the transitional, developing human) idea under a pile of static admiration. | 03:44 |
| fenn | maybe using the air resistance to accelerate sideways could reduce the delta V needed for circularizing | 03:44 |
| fenn | extending the balloon idea even further you get http://www.jpaerospace.com/ but i never figured out how they were supposed to carry/transmit/acquire enough energy to accelerate fast enough to overcome drag | 03:46 |
| fenn | maybe it was just an investment fraud scheme | 03:47 |
| fenn | or maybe they were just clueless | 03:48 |
| mosasaur | Maybe if two built a pipe high enough and suck all the air out of it, three could launch things into orbit just by letting air in again from under the launch vehicle? | 03:52 |
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| fenn | no, speed of sound is 30 times too slow | 03:53 |
| fenn | that's why the "light gas gun" - sounds travels faster in hydrogen | 03:53 |
| fenn | smaller particle mass means faster velocity for the same amount of momentum | 03:54 |
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| fenn | what most people don't realize is how absurd it is that each kilogram of orbiting mass contains more kinetic energy than the equivalent chemical energy in a kilogram of gasoline | 03:55 |
| fenn | and how is a balloon covered in solar panels supposed to gather that much energy in 9 hours? | 03:56 |
| fenn | honestly i think they just started with the V shape and had too much enthusiasm to stop | 03:57 |
| mosasaur | maybe some reflectors/concentrators that are already in orbit are focusing light on that balloon | 03:59 |
| fenn | maybe a flying pink unicorn swoops in and picks them up | 04:00 |
| mosasaur | unfair! | 04:00 |
| fenn | maybe the stop at bertrand russell's teapot and pick up some fuel | 04:00 |
| mosasaur | if you don't want to consider the answer why ask the question | 04:01 |
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| fenn | so, jordin kare evaluated the concept and decided that the balloon's contribution to delta V doesn't compensate for the complexity it introduces | 04:02 |
| fenn | instead you should use a small launch vehicle and beam power to it via laser | 04:02 |
| fenn | same mass, same delta V, more focus, less drag | 04:02 |
| fenn | see, orbit isn't "up" it's "fast" | 04:03 |
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| mosasaur | I thought you were sending lightning strikes ahead of the projectile to split the air in front of it. | 04:04 |
| fenn | .wa accelerate at 1 gravity for 90km in km/s | 04:04 |
| yoleaux | fenn: Sorry, no result! | 04:05 |
| fenn | wtf | 04:05 |
| fenn | .wa accelerate at 1 gravity for 90 km in km per second | 04:05 |
| yoleaux | fenn: Sorry, no result! | 04:05 |
| fenn | how did we do this last time | 04:05 |
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| mosasaur | .wa 1g distance 90 km | 04:06 |
| yoleaux | Input information: distance: 90 km (kilometers); plane angle: 1 grad; Angle subtended: height: 1.414 km (kilometers); = 0.8785 miles; = 4638 feet; http://is.gd/TcJuFo | 04:06 |
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| fenn | sqrt(90km*gravity) is barely even 1 km/s contribution to delta-V | 04:07 |
| mosasaur | .wa acceleration 1g distance 90 km | 04:07 |
| yoleaux | Input information: acceleration: 1 g (standard acceleration due to gravity on the surface of the earth); distance: 90 km (kilometers); Equation of motion: final speed: 1.329 km/s (kilometers per second); = 2972 mph (miles per hour); = 4783 km/h (kilometers per hour) | 04:07 |
| fenn | huh where did 1.329 come from | 04:08 |
| fenn | mosasaur: pushing the air out of the way of a large projectile would take more energy than just launching a small projectile through it | 04:10 |
| fenn | actually i don't really know | 04:10 |
| mosasaur | how much air resistance do have at 20 km altitude? | 04:11 |
| mosasaur | .wa altitude 20 km air resistance | 04:11 |
| yoleaux | air: electrical resistivity: elevation: 20 km (kilometers): (data not available) | 04:12 |
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| fenn | dude you are never going to get a simple answer for that | 04:12 |
| mosasaur | .wa altitude 20 km air pressure | 04:13 |
| yoleaux | altitude: 20 km (kilometers): barometric pressure: 55 mbar (millibars); Unit conversions: 0.55 dbar (decibars); 0.055 bars; 5.5 kPa (kilopascals); 5500 Pa (pascals); 41 torr (unit officially deprecated); Comparisons: ~0.52 × typical diastolic overpressure in human arteries (~80 mmHg); ~0.56 × lung air pressure that a typical adult human can exert (~9800 Pa); ~blood pressure fluctuation between heartbeats for a typical healthy … | 04:13 |
| yoleaux | adult (~5000 Pa) | 04:13 |
| fenn | why 20 km, what's special about that? | 04:13 |
| gradstudentbot | So, there's this really good conference in Spain that I want to attend. | 04:13 |
| fenn | .wa height of mount everest | 04:14 |
| yoleaux | Mount Everest: elevation: 8848 meters; Unit conversions: 29029 feet; 9676 yards; 5.498 miles; 8.848 km (kilometers); Comparisons as height: ~(0.23 ~1/4) × greatest height above the Earth from which a human has jumped (39045 m); ~2.5 × height of Lego bricks a single brick can support without plastic failure (~3.5 km) | 04:14 |
| mosasaur | thats the maximal height of a naturally occurring mountain plus something we can build on top of it | 04:14 |
| fenn | apparently it's about 9 km ^^ | 04:15 |
| fenn | .wa height burj khalifa | 04:16 |
| yoleaux | Burj Khalifa: height: 828 meters (city rank: 1st: national rank: 1st: world rank: 1st); Unit conversions: 2717 feet; 906 yards; 0.5145 miles; 0.828 km (kilometers); Comparisons as height: ~(0.24 ~1/4) × height of Lego bricks a single brick can support without plastic failure (~3.5 km); ~1.5 × height of the CN Tower (~553 m); ~310 × story (8 to 10 ft) | 04:16 |
| fenn | i'm sure one could build a pretty tall carbon fiber tower (hell, even steel has a pretty high specific compressive strength) | 04:17 |
| mosasaur | .wa weather balloon altitude | 04:18 |
| yoleaux | mosasaur: Sorry, no result! | 04:18 |
| fenn | https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TE0n_5qPmRM gah another cancelled google project. sheesh. anyway, he talks about really tall steel towers and why we should build them | 04:19 |
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| mosasaur | https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Weather_balloon "Weather balloons may reach altitudes of 40 km (25 miles) or more, limited by diminishing pressures causing the balloon to expand to such a degree (typically by a 100:1 factor) that it disintegrates" | 04:21 |
| fenn | i used 90km from xentrac's estimate of the maximum balloon launch altitude | 04:22 |
| mosasaur | so they could probably take some weight off a tower. maybe even be built into its walls | 04:22 |
| fenn | balloons add drag though. maybe a kite would work; transfer the compressive loads to tensile loads (our materials are much better in tension) | 04:24 |
| mosasaur | actually one of my interests is stratosferic balloon organisms, or vacuum containers built from carbon nanotech material | 04:25 |
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| fenn | mosasaur: you should read "ventus" by karl schroeder (and watch that youtube video i just linked!) | 04:26 |
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| * fenn has changed the topic to: back of the virtual napkin calculations | 04:28 | |
| mosasaur | thanks fenn, will certainly read that, if only for the speculative realist angle | 04:29 |
| fenn | it has some relevance to munchins too (distributed planetary internet of things) | 04:30 |
| fenn | munchkins* | 04:30 |
| fenn | i should use agrep more often | 04:30 |
| fenn | "search for strings which either exactly or approximately match a pattern" | 04:31 |
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| fenn | why dont i have a copy of yarchive.net | 04:41 |
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| mosasaur | DOE use "find" to create gigantic file listings for their usb disks and then uses grep to search in those files? | 05:00 |
| fenn | DOE? | 05:02 |
| fenn | is that a pronoun or an agency | 05:02 |
| mosasaur | It used to be the case that locate accepted a database parameter even if that disk was disconnected but it is no more, probably for our own safety. | 05:02 |
| mosasaur | "Does anyone else" it's probably a reddit thing, like AMA. | 05:03 |
| fenn | oh i think it can still do that | 05:03 |
| fenn | -e Print only entries that refer to files existing at the time locate is run. | 05:04 |
| mosasaur | Maybe making typos in acronyms is a bad idea | 05:05 |
| fenn | i had to build a mlocate database in parallel from 6TB of "netapp" raid array files just to be able to find anything | 05:05 |
| fenn | maybe acronyms are a bad idea | 05:05 |
| fenn | maybe reddit is a bad idea | 05:06 |
| fenn | pew pew | 05:06 |
| fenn | someone build an idea exterminator | 05:06 |
| mosasaur | maybe namespaces are a good idea | 05:06 |
| fenn | one honking great idea - let's do more of those! | 05:07 |
| mosasaur | fenn: -e maybe you don't know what you're missing? | 05:08 |
| fenn | if your usb disk isn't plugged in, it won't show up in locate -e | 05:09 |
| mosasaur | how do I get to +e | 05:09 |
| fenn | uh... apparently you have to use redis | 05:10 |
| fenn | that was a joke btw | 05:10 |
| fenn | there aren't very good built-in shell tools for set operations | 05:11 |
| mosasaur | by the way I suspect locate to also automagically refuse to read db that are too old, without telling me | 05:11 |
| fenn | i ran across this but i haven't really used it yet http://www.catonmat.net/blog/set-operations-in-unix-shell/ | 05:12 |
| gradstudentbot | Seriously, who moved my samples? | 05:12 |
| fenn | well RTFM instead of suspecting things | 05:12 |
| gradstudentbot | The grant got rejected. | 05:13 |
| fenn | the software doesn't have a grudge against you | 05:13 |
| fenn | except for maybe gradstudentbot | 05:13 |
| gradstudentbot | The gel is streaking. | 05:13 |
| fenn | sounds like he's having a bad day | 05:13 |
| fenn | mosasaur: you could do locate foo > a ; locate -e foo > b ; diff a b | grep -E ^- | 05:15 |
| fenn | or maybe it's diff b a | 05:16 |
| mosasaur | it's not the DB's that are the problem it's the wrappers with a zillion options that are not sorted by relevance. | 05:16 |
| fenn | huh i use locate all the time | 05:17 |
| mosasaur | That and a lack of good example uses | 05:17 |
| fenn | i agree about lack of examples, and lack of man pages in general | 05:17 |
| mosasaur | Sure I use locate too, but not for USB disks that are offline | 05:17 |
| fenn | sometimes the -h flag is more relevant than the man page if you are unfamiliar with a command | 05:18 |
| mosasaur | man -s relevance locate | 05:18 |
| fenn | i started doing "du > diskname.du" on disks before i unplugged them | 05:19 |
| fenn | but my brain still remembers stuff that is on disks that i don't have anymore | 05:20 |
| fenn | i havent figured out how tracker stores things yet | 05:21 |
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| mosasaur | wow, du -a seems way easier than that complex find command I keep forgetting | 05:24 |
| fenn | find . ? | 05:25 |
| fenn | find does give you way too much shit about the syntax | 05:25 |
| fenn | find: unknown predicate `--type' | 05:26 |
| fenn | find: Arguments to -type should contain only one letter | 05:26 |
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| fenn | find: unknown predicate `-t' | 05:26 |
| fenn | fuck you find! | 05:26 |
| mosasaur | Too bad, it's not in my bash history anymore, so I have to reinvent the wheel. But now I have du -a . | 05:26 |
| fenn | PROMPT_COMMAND="${PROMPT_COMMAND:+$PROMPT_COMMAND ; }"'echo $$ $USER@$HOSTNAME "$(history 1)" >> ~/.bash_eternal_history_$HOSTNAME' | 05:27 |
| fenn | this saves everything you type (and then some) to a file | 05:27 |
| fenn | after four years mine's only 13MB | 05:28 |
| mosasaur | arguably, that would have prevented me from finding out about du | 05:28 |
| fenn | it also prevented me from remembering to multiply by sqrt(2) when finding the speed of a fall from 90km | 05:29 |
| fenn | but i find it useful | 05:29 |
| fenn | especially when you're in the middle of something and just want an answer right now | 05:29 |
| mosasaur | it's so impractical to mess with the fabric of reality | 05:30 |
| fenn | indeed | 05:31 |
| fenn | another good one, add timestamps and localtime HISTTIMEFORMAT="%s %k:%M " | 05:34 |
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| mosasaur | https://www.privatepaste.com/45878618f5 put this in /usr/bin/urlify and make it executable | 05:39 |
| mosasaur | now you can "locate something | urlify" | 05:39 |
| fenn | i have the opposite problem; tracker gives me file:///stuff and i want to dump it straight into another program without having to edit the path | 05:41 |
| mosasaur | some terminals can handle these links | 05:41 |
| fenn | there appears to be no way to turn it off either | 05:41 |
| mosasaur | should be easy to adapt | 05:42 |
| fenn | so now i have to do alias ts='tracker-search $* | sed "s/\s*file:\/\/\/" ? | 05:43 |
| fenn | and what if it gives me some other kind of url | 05:43 |
| mosasaur | use agrep? | 05:44 |
| fenn | actually this sounds pretty trivial, it must have been some other problem | 05:44 |
| fenn | maybe spaces in the url | 05:45 |
| fenn | i dunno.. i think "output as url" should be an option, just don't half-ass it | 05:45 |
| mosasaur | one would need an input output mediator | 05:46 |
| mosasaur | impedance matcher | 05:47 |
| fenn | a content addressable multi-layer indexed storage protocol buffer? | 05:47 |
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| mosasaur | Nah, KISS. Build up complex things from simple lego block like utilities. | 05:50 |
| mosasaur | First we need an input recognizer. | 05:50 |
| mosasaur | classifier/pattern matcher | 05:51 |
| mosasaur | "Is this fenn typing at my terminal" | 05:51 |
| mosasaur | Yes! We have 13MB of possible things they might want to do. | 05:53 |
| fenn | that should be relatively straightforward; `whoami` == 'fenn' | 05:53 |
| fenn | nah most of the stuff in eternal_history is stuff that didn't work | 05:54 |
| fenn | maybe i can synchronize 20 nooks to display 20 consecutive pages from the same pdf in synchrony | 05:59 |
| fenn | synchronously! | 05:59 |
| mosasaur | maybe a gui that displays all possibilities ranked by their bayesian priors | 05:59 |
| fenn | yeah something like dasher would be interesting | 05:59 |
| fenn | i generally hate predictive inputs tho | 05:59 |
| fenn | jef raskin has a whole book about why predictive inputs are bad | 06:00 |
| fenn | https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Humane_Interface | 06:00 |
| mosasaur | cpu's don't seem to mind running speculative code | 06:01 |
| fenn | sure, humans have a similar mechanism called priming https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Priming_(psychology) | 06:02 |
| fenn | but predictive inputs change over time, or they are different on different computers | 06:03 |
| fenn | there are entire websites dedicated to screwups of predictive text inputs | 06:03 |
| fenn | damnyouautocorrect.com autocorrectfail.org fyouautocorrect.com wtfautocorrects.com | 06:04 |
| mosasaur | great, now we only need to get priming / multiple code path execution to the intermediary PEBKAC | 06:04 |
| mosasaur | http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pebkac | 06:06 |
| fenn | let's start by implementing a --prerender=disable switch that doesn't crash the browser | 06:06 |
| fenn | oh maybe it was "purge memory button" that was causing the crashing | 06:06 |
| fenn | (so my thighs are the problem?) | 06:07 |
| mosasaur | yes it's a bit like git for sex | 06:13 |
| mosasaur | didn't like this one? just revert the code path | 06:14 |
| fenn | herpes never forgets | 06:15 |
| fenn | herpes will hunt you down and make you pay child support | 06:15 |
| mosasaur | I think I'm getting a headache | 06:18 |
| mosasaur | basically the term should never do something it can't undo | 06:19 |
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| fenn | so does your urlify un-urlify? | 06:22 |
| mosasaur | http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reversible_computing | 06:22 |
| mosasaur | no urlify just urlifies for now | 06:22 |
| fenn | eh, reversible computing is different from undo | 06:22 |
| fenn | i want to make a humane interface so i can use it | 06:24 |
| fenn | zooming would be nice but not a requirement | 06:25 |
| fenn | engelbart had a sort of "zooming" in the way headings were expanded to subheadings etc on down to gloss and footnotes | 06:25 |
| fenn | wikipedia is getting there | 06:26 |
| mosasaur | any sufficiently check-pointed undo is indistinguishable from reversible computing | 06:27 |
| fenn | no because you can undo operations that involve deleting things and affecting other computers | 06:28 |
| fenn | 'undo send that email' | 06:29 |
| fenn | lol | 06:29 |
| mosasaur | as if sending email in reverse would be any better | 06:30 |
| fenn | sending email in reverse would be liame, dude | 06:30 |
| mosasaur | not if it's mp3 | 06:31 |
| fenn | xwax: open-source vinyl emulation software for Linux | 06:33 |
| fenn | now you can play your mp3's backwards, and forwards, and backwards, and forwards | 06:33 |
| mosasaur | maybe if we could eliminate ineffective command sequences we could compress eternal bash histroy | 06:36 |
| fenn | i just have a spellbook which contains the things i think i will want to remember | 06:37 |
| fenn | often i use bash history for finding parameters to video filters or imagemagick that i didn't write down | 06:38 |
| fenn | lately i've gotten better at writing them down though | 06:38 |
| fenn | if only we had a universal ontology ... ... | 06:39 |
| kanzure | did you look at opensls? | 06:40 |
| fenn | what's opensls? | 06:40 |
| kanzure | jordan miller paid a bunch of people to do things and one of those things was an open source selective laser sintering machine | 06:40 |
| kanzure | see bottom of http://gnusha.org/logs/2014-05-02.log | 06:41 |
| fenn | WARNING TIME WARP DETECTED | 06:42 |
| fenn | i haven't finished the backlog yet | 06:42 |
| kanzure | backlog debt | 06:43 |
| mosasaur | dam logs do not warp, must load them in scite first | 06:43 |
| kanzure | it's not the logs that are warping, it's the person | 06:43 |
| kanzure | there's a whole mythos you are missing out on | 06:44 |
| mosasaur | they don't wrap lines either | 06:44 |
| fenn | is there an 'unwrap' command? i mean that's a pretty common problem right? | 06:46 |
| kanzure | fold | 06:47 |
| fenn | i want to undo what "fold" does | 06:47 |
| kanzure | fold -w=1000000 | 06:47 |
| fenn | to get back to evil evil unwrapped long lines | 06:47 |
| fenn | nope | 06:48 |
| gradstudentbot | Got halfway through figuring out all the cell signalling molecules in psoriasis when the cells died and the data couldn't be replicated, so psoriasis is really hard to cure guys don't get it | 06:49 |
| kanzure | fmt | 06:49 |
| kanzure | why is he stuck in a loop? isn't that the third time he's said that. | 06:49 |
| fenn | i ended up doing some wonky shit with replacing two blank lines with a special character sequence and then deleting all newlines and then replacing my character with newlines again, but that doesn't work for files that have new paragraphs with indentation but no spaces between them | 06:49 |
| kanzure | at least he's consistent | 06:50 |
| kanzure | yep i do the new character sequence thing too (often "FUCKFUCKFUCK") | 06:50 |
| fenn | `cat foo | fmt -w 1000` almost works but it leaves the first line at its normal spacing, and it seems to be limited to some number of columns less than 1000 | 06:51 |
| kanzure | how am i supposed to pay my spatio-temporal incurion fees if i just get HTTP 500s? https://www.gotxtag.com/videobilling/payment.do | 06:52 |
| fenn | ah fmt -t -w 1000 | 06:52 |
| fenn | thanks kanzure! | 06:53 |
| kanzure | now i shall take my leave | 06:53 |
| kanzure | and if you should ever need me again, | 06:53 |
| kanzure | i'll be over there (points wildly to some fake star cluster) | 06:53 |
| fenn | * * * * * * * | 06:54 |
| fenn | * * * * * * | 06:54 |
| fenn | * * * * * * * | 06:54 |
| kanzure | yep, that one | 06:54 |
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| kanzure | the hell is fold? | 06:57 |
| kanzure | both fold and fmt are from coreutils | 06:57 |
| kanzure | btw you probably heard of rohit khare from eugen leitl | 07:00 |
| kanzure | from "the friends of rohit khare mailing list" | 07:00 |
| kanzure | i am looking at those emails in my archive | 07:04 |
| kanzure | " Many of us think, at least at times, much faster than we can communicate. At the moment, we can only leverage and communicate stored information in external ways. We could probably communicate several times faster, plus boost that with shorthand and keyword-like inclusion of packets of existing knowledge. Given a much better visualization and representation method, we should be able to communicate a lot of information quickly in an ... | 07:04 |
| kanzure | ... absorbable way." | 07:04 |
| kanzure | http://point7.wordpress.com/2013/06/15/why-are-there-wizards/ trivial/boring | 07:04 |
| kanzure | meh, a lot of the emails look like they have the potential to be interesting, but then they are not | 07:06 |
| kanzure | is there some other reason to stalk him and/or his pals | 07:06 |
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| kanzure | ugh "The Internet Is a Major Driver of the Growth of CognitiveInequality" | 07:09 |
| kanzure | here's one of their links they were dissipating: http://www.ecnmag.com/news/2010/07/mit-researchers-create-fibers-can-detect-and-produce-sound | 07:10 |
| fenn | "I could probably submit your biography to the category of notable pornographic contributors and you would remain notable in that category forever. | 07:13 |
| fenn | "I could probably submit your biography to the category of notable pornographic contributors and you would remain notable in that category forever. | 07:13 |
| fenn | electroactive polymers has been the holy grail of materials science since like forever | 07:15 |
| fenn | After the fiber has been drawn, the researchers need to align all the piezoelectric molecules in the same direction. That requires the application of a powerful electric field — 20 times as powerful as the fields that cause lightning during a thunderstorm. Anywhere the fiber is too narrow, the field would generate a tiny lightning bolt, which could destroy the material around it. | 07:17 |
| kanzure | i saw a paper about a nanotube/nanowire forest array that was doing multi-GHz ultrasound | 07:17 |
| fenn | maybe you could get away with overlapping segments of shorter fibers | 07:18 |
| fenn | or a spiral wound composite fiber with parallel electrodes | 07:20 |
| fenn | then the fiber would only need to have an electret across a mm or less, but it would contract all the way down the length | 07:20 |
| fenn | or maybe a straight fiber with spiral wound electrodes | 07:21 |
| fenn | a double helix | 07:21 |
| fenn | that might be worth looking into | 07:22 |
| kanzure | i would like to avoid chemical/physical vapor deposition, it seems annoying | 07:23 |
| kanzure | and lots of the nanowire array stuff requires that | 07:23 |
| kanzure | engineering for minimum annoyance is valid, right? | 07:25 |
| fenn | "actuator made from coiled monofilament fishing line is 100 times stronger than human muscle" https://www.sciencemag.org/content/343/6173/868.figures-only | 07:28 |
| kanzure | units of strongness? | 07:29 |
| fenn | bah | 07:29 |
| fenn | paperbot: https://www.sciencemag.org/content/343/6173/868.full.pdf | 07:29 |
| fenn | i think it was force/mass | 07:30 |
| paperbot | SSLError: [Errno 1] _ssl.c:504: error:140770FC:SSL routines:SSL23_GET_SERVER_HELLO:unknown protocol (file "/usr/local/lib/python2.7/dist-packages/requests/models.py", line 632, in send) | 07:31 |
| fenn | sciencemag.org seems to be having problems with ssl today | 07:31 |
| kanzure | i should check heartbleed against massive-list-of-stupid-ass-publishers.txt | 07:32 |
| fenn | http://fennetic.net/irc/ray_baughman_coiled_monofilament_fishing_line_actuator_muscle.pdf | 07:33 |
| fenn | wait | 07:33 |
| fenn | ok | 07:36 |
| fenn | i was remembering something that just used fishing line, not carbon nanotubes | 07:38 |
| fenn | i think this is the right article | 07:38 |
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| fenn | this is heat-actuated which kinda sucks | 07:43 |
| fenn | but at least it doesn't use any hard to obtain materials | 07:43 |
| fenn | today i learned that PZT piezoelectric ceramic is a type of perovskite | 07:44 |
| fenn | cool "Like structurally similar lead scandium tantalate and barium strontium titanate, PZT can be used for manufacture of uncooled staring array infrared imaging sensors for thermographic cameras." | 07:46 |
| mosasaur | yesterday I learned that electrostatic ultrasound transducers have a wider frequency range, so more sound pressure | 07:46 |
| fenn | now you're just talking nonsense | 07:47 |
| mosasaur | maybe it got stored the wrong way | 07:47 |
| fenn | maybe you enjoy wasting my time | 07:48 |
| mosasaur | maybe you are a narcissist | 07:48 |
| kanzure | if only | 07:49 |
| kanzure | a lot of my problems would be way different and less problematic if fenn was more of a narcissist | 07:50 |
| kanzure | (yes, i know the world balances weirdly) | 07:50 |
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| fenn | links or it didn't happen | 07:51 |
| mosasaur | looking for them now | 07:51 |
| fenn | patentbot US7804971 | 07:53 |
| fenn | i wonder if yoleaux finds patents | 07:53 |
| fenn | .help patent | 07:53 |
| yoleaux | fenn: Sorry, no help is available for patent. | 07:53 |
| kanzure | i wonder if there's a sane way to obscure a patent so that looking at it doesn't make you legally fucked | 07:53 |
| kanzure | i think it's just https://patents.google.com/<id> | 07:53 |
| kanzure | https://www.google.com/patents/CN101792762B "Pokemon specific regulation of gene expression and application of antisense oligonucleotides" | 07:54 |
| fenn | an electrostatic ultrasonic transducer capable of generating usual sound pressure with lower energy http://google.com/patents/US7804971 | 07:55 |
| fenn | .g 7804971 | 07:56 |
| yoleaux | http://integernumber.com/7804971 | 07:56 |
| fenn | .g US7804971 | 07:56 |
| yoleaux | https://www.google.com/patents/US7804971 | 07:56 |
| fenn | well that works | 07:56 |
| fenn | .title | 07:56 |
| yoleaux | Electrostatic ultrasonic transducer, ultrasonic speaker and display device | 07:56 |
| fenn | http://example.com/ | 07:57 |
| fenn | .g US7804971 | 07:57 |
| yoleaux | https://www.google.com/patents/US7804971 | 07:57 |
| fenn | .title | 07:57 |
| yoleaux | Electrostatic ultrasonic transducer, ultrasonic speaker and display device | 07:57 |
| kanzure | heh yes i was thinking the same | 07:57 |
| fenn | The piezoelectric element, however, has a sharp resonance point regardless of a material and is driven at a frequency of the resonance to be put to practical use as an ultrasonic speaker. This causes an extremely small range of the frequency capable of securing high sound pressure, that is, a narrow band. | 07:59 |
| gradstudentbot | We simply don't do enough titrations in my lab. | 07:59 |
| fenn | this is much easier to read in a korean accent | 08:00 |
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| mosasaur | http://www.freshpatents.com/Electrostatic-ultrasonic-transducer-and-ultrasonic-speaker-audio-signal-reproduction-method-ultra-directive-sound-system-and-display-apparatus-using-electrostatic-ultrasonic-transducer-dt20080626ptan20080152172.php | 08:00 |
| mosasaur | "Unlike the resonance-type ultrasonic transducer shown in FIG. 9, an electrostatic-type ultrasonic transducer in related art can generate high sound pressure throughout a high frequency band range as a broadband generation type ultrasonic transducer. " | 08:01 |
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| mosasaur | so it got stored as piezo transducers ==> narrow frequency range electrostats ==> broadband sound emitters | 08:03 |
| mosasaur | Was this wrong? | 08:03 |
| fenn | no | 08:03 |
| mosasaur | so you assumed I was giving you redundant information? | 08:05 |
| fenn | resonance boosts the gain by the Q factor (?) so how does a non-resonant emitter increase sound pressure? | 08:05 |
| fenn | i actually thought you were just spouting gobbledygook | 08:05 |
| fenn | ideonomics shows that any random sequence of related words/phrases will contain a nugget of "interestingness" | 08:06 |
| fenn | http://ideonomy.mit.edu/intro.html | 08:07 |
| mosasaur | maybe you are so smart that you think everything you can't parse must be nonsense | 08:07 |
| kanzure | you don't have to be smart for that to happen | 08:08 |
| mosasaur | I was discounting lack of stimulants | 08:09 |
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| fenn | .d apophenia | 08:13 |
| yoleaux | Sorry, I couldn't find a definition for 'apophenia'. | 08:13 |
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| kanzure | https://github.com/soundcloud/roshi "Roshi implements a time-series event storage via a LWW-element-set CRDT with inline garbage collection. Roshi is a stateless, distributed layer on top of Redis and is implemented in Go. It is partition tolerant, highly available and eventually consistent. At a high level, Roshi maintains sets of values, with each set ordered according to (external) timestamp, newest-first. Roshi provides the following API: ... | 08:14 |
| kanzure | ... insert delete select. Roshi stores a sharded copy of your dataset in multiple independent Redis instances, called a cluster. Roshi provides fault tolerance by duplicating clusters; multiple identical clusters, normally at least 3, form a farm. Roshi leverages CRDT semantics to ensure consistency without explicit consensus." | 08:14 |
| fenn | please paraphrase that | 08:15 |
| fenn | it saves logs, reliably? | 08:15 |
| kanzure | no idea :) | 08:16 |
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| fenn | pyotra: is your name actually A. Sakharov? | 08:17 |
| kanzure | "Roshi replicates data over several non-communicating clusters" how do you do this without sending data (communication)? | 08:17 |
| fenn | quantum entanglement | 08:18 |
| mosasaur | multicast | 08:19 |
| kanzure | multicast involves communication | 08:19 |
| mosasaur | not inter-clusterl communication | 08:19 |
| fenn | "if you have to ask, you don't need it"? | 08:21 |
| mosasaur | basically it sends all clusters the data at the same time without the clusters communicating with each other | 08:21 |
| mosasaur | I can make sense of things even fenn can't | 08:21 |
| mosasaur | not claiming the things an sich make sense | 08:22 |
| fenn | i think "it saves logs, reliably" was a pretty good paraphrasing | 08:22 |
| gradstudentbot | Who took my stethoscope? | 08:22 |
| kanzure | i don't think logging is the point, looks like a generic layer thing on top of redis | 08:22 |
| kanzure | and redis is definitely not only for logs | 08:22 |
| fenn | why the emphasis on "time series events" | 08:23 |
| fenn | it's one thing to talk about the implementation details (redis, go, etc) another to say what it actually is good for | 08:23 |
| kanzure | because physics happens in distributed systems and there's weird clock drift where part of your system is operating in the future | 08:23 |
| fenn | logs could be database transactions or filesystem journal events or whatever | 08:25 |
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| fenn | i still don't know what the intended use case is | 08:26 |
| fenn | i guess you like it because it's related to DBZ? | 08:26 |
| kanzure | no, it showed up in an email | 08:27 |
| fenn | it sort of reminds me of operational transforms like used in Wave or etherpad | 08:28 |
| fenn | but i guess it's just a distributed database "thing" (what is it?) | 08:28 |
| fenn | "Roshi should not be used as a source of truth, but only as an intermediate store for performance critical data. | 08:29 |
| mosasaur | In my opinion sharding is mostly used to pacify managers into thinking that just adding hardware is enough to solve all their problems. | 08:31 |
| fenn | just let moore's law fix it | 08:32 |
| kanzure | ugh http://dnlongen.blogspot.com/2014/04/credit-cards-for-12-million-drivers.html | 08:33 |
| kanzure | http://www.star-telegram.com/2014/04/09/5725535/toll-tag-trauma-state-shuts-down.html | 08:34 |
| * kanzure shrugs | 08:34 | |
| fenn | every vendor you give your credit card to has your credit card number, i wouldn't worry about it | 08:34 |
| kanzure | no, this is about their unscheduled downtime | 08:34 |
| kanzure | they are redirecting to http://www.txtag.org/system_outage.php and https://www.gotxtag.com/videobilling/ | 08:34 |
| fenn | good thing it was a government and not a corporation or mister Longnecker would be facing jailtime for "unauthorized access" | 08:35 |
| kanzure | governments don't convict people they are upset with? | 08:35 |
| fenn | they already have bad PR so they don't care if someone points out their flaws | 08:36 |
| fenn | don't ask me, man, none of this makes any sense | 08:36 |
| mosasaur | uptime maximization is for reducing fear of duplicate mass emailings | 08:37 |
| fenn | if you haven't figured it out i'm referring to weev vs AT&T | 08:37 |
| mosasaur | I one parses all this stuff as management pacifiers it makes a lot more sense | 08:40 |
| gnusha | https://secure.diyhpl.us/cgit/diyhpluswiki/commit/?id=80ffc25a Bryan Bishop: remove weird css theme | 08:41 |
| kanzure | wtf it didn't work | 08:42 |
| * kanzure runs rebuildrepo | 08:42 | |
| kanzure | much better, http://diyhpl.us/wiki/ | 08:43 |
| kanzure | fenn: feel like doing a quick code review? https://github.com/kanzure/python-brlcad/pull/28/files | 08:58 |
| mosasaur | Maybe nature equipped us with hyperactive patten matching to avoid predators, like better a few times too often than one time too few and end up being eaten. | 08:59 |
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| mosasaur | Is brlcad a bit like vpython? | 09:11 |
| kanzure | brlcad is military software for designing superweapons using constructive solid geometry and weird bits of tcl | 09:15 |
| mosasaur | http://ajem.com/ | 09:17 |
| mosasaur | .title | 09:17 |
| yoleaux | AJEM | 09:17 |
| kanzure | i wonder if there's a sort of shoe you could wear that would make it more likely for you to survive free fall from the sky | 09:18 |
| mosasaur | What is the free fall end speed of a human body and how many g deceleration is acceptable | 09:20 |
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| mosasaur | Is it acceptable for the shoe to turn in the kind of air mattress firemen use to let people escape from the roof of a highrise building ? | 09:21 |
| fenn | opensls looks pretty straightforward; i don't get why it costs $15k (maybe they weren't optimizing for cost yet) | 09:22 |
| gradstudentbot | My experiment was working a second ago, but now it doesn't even work. | 09:22 |
| fenn | "xentrac> can I project my laptop monitor onto a light-sensitive surface to do LCD photolithography?" yes, but it will be slower than laser or DLP because monitors aren't as bright | 09:23 |
| kanzure | mosasaur: yes, i think a transforming shoe is okay | 09:23 |
| fenn | omg AshleyWaffle posted something on-topic | 09:24 |
| fenn | xentrac: did you actually mean photolithography or did you mean stereolithography? | 09:25 |
| fenn | using a gantry style laser cutter to do SLS seems like it would miss out on the neat thing about lasers; you can direct them with mirrors at high velocity. this isn't used in laser cutters because the kerf (cut) wouldn't be straight, but for melting the surface layer of a powder bed it's fine | 09:29 |
| fenn | DLP SLS is interesting; maybe the DLP chip would overheat | 09:30 |
| fenn | maybe the laser is too underpowered to make a difference in terms of speed, or they aren't at the point where speed is a concern | 09:31 |
| fenn | there are so many ways to do 3d printing | 09:32 |
| fenn | laser printer toner seems like it would be a good medium | 09:32 |
| kanzure | foldable backpack hang glider would probably work better than shoe stuff | 09:33 |
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| kanzure | also, i should wear my phone on my shoe | 09:35 |
| fenn | wearing phones on shoes is correlated with steps detected which have been proven to be associated with health | 09:36 |
| kanzure | oh wait, wrist crap exists | 09:42 |
| kanzure | code review stuff? | 09:42 |
| fenn | thrash thrash thrash | 09:45 |
| fenn | caveat: i haven't looked at or even thought about BRL-CAD in years | 09:47 |
| cluckj | http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pArBEnKcoMw | 09:47 |
| cluckj | .title | 09:47 |
| yoleaux | Get Smart Shoe Phone | 09:47 |
| kanzure | i could put my shoe up to my ear to make a phone call | 09:50 |
| fenn | kanzure: why am i "reviewing" changes to code i've never looked at before? | 09:50 |
| kanzure | fenn: because (1) you have a vague interest in brlcad (2) you know some python things (3) i am less likely to bring up obvious problems because i am "too close" to the code. | 09:51 |
| cluckj | yiss | 09:51 |
| kanzure | (i didn't write the stuff he is submitting, but over time i've been lowering my expectations dramatically..) | 09:51 |
| gradstudentbot | Yeah, but his PI wrote his dissertation. | 09:51 |
| fenn | who is ncsaba? | 09:51 |
| kanzure | random dude | 09:52 |
| kanzure | just showed up | 09:52 |
| fenn | anyway, it looks like code. and the ascii art docstrings help me at least | 09:52 |
| kanzure | "it looks like code" is not an acceptable code review result :P | 09:52 |
| fenn | you should have said something 8 hours ago | 09:53 |
| kanzure | why 8 hours ago? | 09:53 |
| fenn | oh wait sorry, you showed up and said "did you look at ..." | 09:54 |
| fenn | you and xentrac are both blue, it's confusing | 09:54 |
| fenn | 7 letters long | 09:54 |
| mosasaur | wdb.py has global vars | 09:56 |
| kanzure | yikes | 09:56 |
| kanzure | yeah i should call him out on that one | 09:58 |
| kanzure | or just fix it myself | 09:58 |
| fenn | create_getter is not pythonic, it should make properties instead (but this is maybe advanced python-knowhow?) | 09:59 |
| fenn | are there _get functions for the other geometries too? | 10:00 |
| fenn | .get | 10:00 |
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| fenn | nevermind he actually is using properties, not getters/setters | 10:11 |
| fenn | i need to go do a thing; i'll look at this tomorrow | 10:13 |
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| xentrac | fenn: well, stereolithography was the desired goal of the photolithography | 11:31 |
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| chris_99 | isn't stereolithography 3d while photolithography is 2d | 11:33 |
| xentrac | yes | 11:34 |
| xentrac | but DLP 3dp systems are in some sense doing multiple layers of photolithography to get "stereolithography" | 11:35 |
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| kanzure | Please do not close this window or use the back button | 12:40 |
| gradstudentbot | Yeah, I read the paper, I just don't remember the details. | 12:40 |
| @heath | jrayhawk, kanzure: i'd like to setup a gnusha account again | 12:45 |
| @heath | no sense in paying linode ~$20/month | 12:45 |
| @heath | or amazon ~40/year | 12:45 |
| jrayhawk | it's still there | 12:50 |
| @heath | cool | 12:50 |
| jrayhawk | "heath@A1410" | 12:51 |
| @heath | thanks | 12:51 |
| jrayhawk | as ybit, which I can change if you want. | 12:51 |
| jrayhawk | that said we're probably getting overcontended for the freenode connection limit | 12:58 |
| kanzure | you mean i can't open a million connections to freenode? | 13:00 |
| jrayhawk | that's correct | 13:00 |
| kanzure | well you're just full of bad news aren't you | 13:00 |
| kanzure | hrmph | 13:01 |
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| fenn | heh even for the "open source lab"? surely you can swing your opensourcely might around | 14:12 |
| fenn | there's only 7 connections as far as i can see | 14:14 |
| kanzure | maybe number of joined channels per connection matters | 14:23 |
| kanzure | what was i doing? | 14:29 |
| kanzure | ugh you guys made me read about basilisks? fuck you | 14:40 |
| kanzure | "biobank problems" http://www.genengnews.com/media/images/AnalysisAndInsight/PharmaIQ_infographic_5214_biobanking1992052391.jpg (uh?) | 14:41 |
| kanzure | "Whatever you do, don't call these amplifiers hearing aids. They are not considered medical devices like the ones overseen by the Food and Drug Administration and dispensed by professionals to aid those with impaired hearing. Rather, they are over-the-counter systems cleared by the F.D.A. for occasional use in situations when speech and other sounds are hard to discern--say, in a noisy restaurant or while bird-watching." | 14:42 |
| kanzure | so non-fda approved devices still have to be approved by the fda? | 14:43 |
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| kanzure | paperbot: http://www.cell.com/neuron/abstract/S0896-6273(14)00111-1 | 14:43 |
| kanzure | .title | 14:43 |
| yoleaux | kanzure: Sorry: that command is a web-service, but its response was too long. | 14:43 |
| paperbot | http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/paperbot/3b3af6c91a0ea61cdbd02ef04a693db6.txt | 14:43 |
| kanzure | i wonder if i can orchestrate a way to get the fda and nra to fight it out, "shotguns are not approved medical devices for assisted suicide, so we have to confiscate all shotguns and handguns from the population" | 14:46 |
| kanzure | jrayhawk: how can i make that fight happen | 14:46 |
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| kanzure | "A nice thought exercise for me is what would computing look like if you could fab wafers for free, today. Sort of the ad absurdum take on Moore's Law continuing." | 15:30 |
| kanzure | probably lots more experimental hardware, lots more asics | 15:34 |
| kanzure | full-wafer memory/dis | 15:35 |
| kanzure | *dies | 15:35 |
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| delinquentme | OK so Im * completely * lost here | 16:02 |
| delinquentme | http://ajs.sagepub.com/content/39/7/1522.abstract | 16:02 |
| paperbot | http://libgen.org/scimag/get.php?doi=10.1177%2F0363546510397815 | 16:03 |
| delinquentme | these guys are taking dismembered bodyparts ... and they're claiming these body parts healed. | 16:04 |
| delinquentme | Does this happen? I HAVE to be overlooking something here | 16:04 |
| streety | delinquentme: they use the term repaired which I think is more mechanical than healed. They damage the tendon and attempt to repair the damage using two different techniques and then look at which can take the most load | 16:15 |
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| poppingtonic | ping | 16:59 |
| poppingtonic | hey gradstudentbot | 17:04 |
| gradstudentbot | I think more research is required. | 17:04 |
| delinquentme | streety, yeah | 17:07 |
| delinquentme | Its shit research. | 17:07 |
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| delinquentme | paperbot, http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/1566477 | 19:22 |
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| kanzure | .title | 19:57 |
| yoleaux | Microbiologic screening as a preparatory ste... [Transplant Proc. 1992] | 19:57 |
| kanzure | j. black eso. sorcery | 19:57 |
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| nmz787 | anyone know if human embryos work in cattle or swine surrogates? | 20:19 |
| kanzure | well, they work in human surrogates | 20:20 |
| nmz787 | http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Interspecific_pregnancy | 20:20 |
| nmz787 | yes I'm not interested in human surrogates | 20:21 |
| nmz787 | seems too expensive, and less control over the nutrition before and during pregnancy | 20:21 |
| nmz787 | it would be neat to tell your 'kids' they were born vegans :P | 20:22 |
| nmz787 | your surrogate was purely a vegan, only ate grass | 20:22 |
| yashgaroth | surrogate moother, heh get it | 20:24 |
| nmz787 | lol | 20:24 |
| nmz787 | looool | 20:24 |
| nmz787 | "Human-animal transgenesis and chimeras might be an expression of our humanity" | 20:26 |
| nmz787 | http://www.tandfonline.com/doi/pdf/10.1162/15265160360706462 | 20:26 |
| nmz787 | paperbot: http://www.tandfonline.com/doi/pdf/10.1162/15265160360706462 | 20:26 |
| paperbot | http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/paperbot/f5df4d5b6874238d52175867f096b841.pdf | 20:26 |
| nmz787 | nice | 20:26 |
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| nmz787 | problems of oregon living... onions rot more often in your cabinet, leaving you onionless when you need to cook | 20:33 |
| nmz787 | paperbot: http://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s11948-004-0042-4 | 20:34 |
| paperbot | http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/paperbot/Reproductive%20ectogenesis%3A%20The%20third%20era%20of%20human%20reproduction%20and%20some%20moral%20consequences.pdf | 20:35 |
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| gradstudentbot | Seriously, who moved my samples? | 20:36 |
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| kanzure | gene_hacker: hi | 21:18 |
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| nmz787 | huh, https://losangeles.craigslist.org/ant/etc/4452653705.html | 21:19 |
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| nmz787 | "Earn $30k - $40k" | 21:19 |
| nmz787 | "Become a surrogate mother and make dreams come true" | 21:19 |
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| nmz787 | so that's what some middle man is paying, so customers must be paying, what, double that? | 21:20 |
| nmz787 | or like 25% that? | 21:20 |
| kanzure | the rule of thumb is that the amount out of pocket for the customer is one year's salary (pre-tax?) | 21:27 |
| kanzure | there are cheaper deals in india, but not everyone wants to have some $15k pregnancy | 21:27 |
| kanzure | i have no idea where the full-year's-salary idea came from but i've heard it from a few sources | 21:27 |
| kanzure | usually i hear more like $80-$150k but, now that i think about it, why would you pay $150k if $80k is also an option | 21:28 |
| kanzure | you want to pay enough for, at minimum, good nutrition and medical stuff | 21:29 |
| kanzure | but also possibly minimizing work-related stress, so you don't want to pay enough to encourage the surrogate to get another job | 21:30 |
| kanzure | erm, *pay poorly enough to | 21:30 |
| kanzure | also it's possibly more than 9 months because of pre-pregnancy stuff | 21:31 |
| gene_hacker | hey kanzure, do you know if nanoengineer can do dative bonds? | 21:40 |
| kanzure | i don't know, and i don't see "dative" mentioned here: https://github.com/kanzure/nanoengineer/blob/master/cad/src/model/bonds.py | 21:48 |
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| kanzure | cad/src/ReadMe.html: <li>** The simulator does not handle hydrogen bonds or dative bonds | 21:53 |
| kanzure | https://github.com/kanzure/nanoengineer/blob/13316409d2911388e7fbc4643804553dbc2f13ed/cad/src/ReadMe.html | 21:53 |
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| kanzure | gene_hacker: https://github.com/andreasbastian/opensls | 22:05 |
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| gene_hacker | curses | 22:28 |
| gene_hacker | I guess I'll have to figure out how to hack them in | 22:29 |
| gene_hacker | open SLS really should be using flowing nitrogen and a heated chamber | 22:31 |
| gene_hacker | SLS is hard! sintering is dependent on T^4 which makes it really sensitive to minor temperature variations | 22:32 |
| xentrac | that's interesting! Why T⁴? | 22:32 |
| gene_hacker | because thats what the empirically determined sintering equation says | 22:37 |
| gene_hacker | or maybe not empirically determined | 22:37 |
| gene_hacker | I'm going to have to guess, something something surface energy | 22:37 |
| xentrac | heh | 22:38 |
| xentrac | I guess that also means that you can get fairly sharp boundaries between sintered and non-sintered regions without having huge temperature gradients | 22:38 |
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| gene_hacker | it also means, that the slightest bit of temperature difference can mess things up | 22:40 |
| gene_hacker | print a part with nothing around it and your fine | 22:40 |
| xentrac | well, maybe | 22:41 |
| gene_hacker | print a part with another part near it, and the part is ruined or better | 22:41 |
| xentrac | I guess it depends on how far apart sintering and melting are | 22:41 |
| gene_hacker | yup | 22:41 |
| xentrac | if you can go 200 degrees past sintering with no problem, say | 22:42 |
| xentrac | then a five or ten degree difference in the environment won't matter much | 22:42 |
| gene_hacker | if you do that with plastic, well end up with not plastic | 22:44 |
| gene_hacker | *you end up with not plastic | 22:46 |
| xentrac | yes, probably | 22:47 |
| xentrac | maybe there might be some marginal exceptions (PTFE? polyimide? epoxy?) but maybe not even those | 22:48 |
| gene_hacker | with PTFE, you end up with deadly and probably corrosive gas | 22:54 |
| gene_hacker | but it seems the real problem the open SLS people are having right now isn't sintering, it's warping | 22:54 |
| gene_hacker | and it's possible to fix that in software | 22:54 |
| gene_hacker | back in 2011, when the japanese shut off all their nuclear power plants, a service bureau down there figured a way to solve the warping problem | 22:58 |
| xentrac | a very small amount of deadly and probably corrosive gas | 22:59 |
| xentrac | that's really interesting about the warping | 23:00 |
| gene_hacker | you see, you can't shut off an SLS machine when it's running, otherwise the build will be ruined due to warping | 23:00 |
| gene_hacker | so this service bureau was losing lot$ of money because of all the rolling blackouts causing their builds to crash | 23:00 |
| xentrac | right | 23:01 |
| gene_hacker | so what they did was have the machine build struts into the parts to prevent warping | 23:01 |
| gene_hacker | they didn't even need to heat the powder bed and they could stop and start the thing anytime | 23:01 |
| xentrac | interesting! | 23:07 |
| kanzure | gene_hacker: cheapo ways of making highly-addressable piezo transducer arrays? | 23:10 |
| gene_hacker | addressable piezo arrays? | 23:10 |
| gene_hacker | what are you trying to make? | 23:11 |
| gene_hacker | how big of an array? | 23:11 |
| kanzure | ultrasound phased array | 23:11 |
| kanzure | imaging, stimulation, hopefully on same array | 23:11 |
| gene_hacker | oh i see | 23:12 |
| kanzure | stimulation somewhere between 250 kHz-5 MHz, i think imaging between 2-10 MHz | 23:12 |
| gene_hacker | ultrasonic buzzers are cheap | 23:12 |
| gene_hacker | anything more and you'll have to buy a pottery kiln | 23:13 |
| gene_hacker | and mod it for fine temperature control | 23:13 |
| kanzure | i'm okay with 2x2 to 8x8 but more would be interesting | 23:13 |
| kanzure | also, a kiln doesn't sound that bad | 23:15 |
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| gene_hacker | yeah kilns are that bad | 23:19 |
| gene_hacker | *aren't | 23:20 |
| gene_hacker | you can make superconductors with modded kilns | 23:20 |
| gene_hacker | now how about this? http://www-bcf.usc.edu/~yongchen/Research/ISFA2012_7119.pdf | 23:20 |
| kanzure | paperbot: http://www-bcf.usc.edu/~yongchen/Research/ISFA2012_7119.pdf | 23:20 |
| paperbot | http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/paperbot/db1a4c95247a3c2edc13a65ecff02899.txt | 23:20 |
| kanzure | oops | 23:20 |
| kanzure | nice | 23:21 |
| gene_hacker | yup, just a DLP project pointing at a big o' vat of resin with some PZT mixed | 23:22 |
| kanzure | electrodes deposited by sputtering in that one | 23:23 |
| gene_hacker | more recently some guys down georgia tech used something similar to make jet turbine blade molds for really cheap | 23:23 |
| kanzure | i have no idea, are people still making turbine blades with those n-axis cnc machines? | 23:24 |
| gene_hacker | they also found that the STL file format sucks for this sort of thing, and found it better to slice it from a CAD file and export to an old fax machine format | 23:25 |
| gene_hacker | probably only for prototyping purposes | 23:25 |
| gene_hacker | turbine blades are are made from single crystalline superalloy that requires a special molding process | 23:26 |
| gene_hacker | superalloy is @%#& to machine | 23:28 |
| kanzure | iirc those authors presented at the sff symposium in austin a while back | 23:28 |
| gene_hacker | yup | 23:28 |
| kanzure | but it might be a different shung/chen | 23:28 |
| gene_hacker | it isn't | 23:29 |
| kanzure | no idea | 23:29 |
| kanzure | cool | 23:29 |
| gradstudentbot | I think the centrifuge is broken. | 23:30 |
| gradstudentbot | Once you go Markov, you never go Bach. | 23:31 |
| kanzure | gene_hacker: you should come up with an excuse to collaborate with jordan miller at rice | 23:33 |
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| kanzure | since he got the tissue printing and open source sintering stuff to happen | 23:34 |
| gene_hacker | well right now I'm trying to make nanomachines | 23:35 |
| kanzure | have you seen the .mmp files in nanoengineer.git? there's a bunch of different nanoscopic machine parts modeled up. | 23:36 |
| kanzure | of course, many of them are just "ideas from mesospace scaled down to really really tiny", but whatever | 23:37 |
| kanzure | https://github.com/kanzure/nanoengineer/tree/master/cad/partlib | 23:37 |
| gene_hacker | yeah | 23:38 |
| gene_hacker | I'm on a project to do something similiar | 23:38 |
| kanzure | xentrac: did you ever see the nanofactory video? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vEYN18d7gHg | 23:39 |
| gene_hacker | we want to make molecular 'origami' that folds in response to light | 23:39 |
| kanzure | you could probably get that with dna if you want | 23:39 |
| kanzure | there are a few ways to get dna to respond to light | 23:39 |
| gene_hacker | we've got a better way to do it than DNA | 23:40 |
| kanzure | oh good | 23:40 |
| kanzure | 'cause this stuff is annoying and black sorcery, http://dna.caltech.edu/DNAresearch_publications.html | 23:40 |
| gene_hacker | with a higher rigidity than DNA | 23:40 |
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| gene_hacker | we're using metal organic frameworks BTW | 23:44 |
| gene_hacker | they've got all the rigidity of drexler, and the self assembly like smalley | 23:45 |
| kanzure | where'd you find it? | 23:46 |
| gene_hacker | ? | 23:46 |
| kanzure | self-assembling origami gears out of metal is not a typical thing to run into? | 23:46 |
| kanzure | just wondering where it's from, was it something found in nature, etc | 23:47 |
| gene_hacker | it doesn't exist yet | 23:47 |
| gene_hacker | we're trying to design it | 23:47 |
| kanzure | so you'll have to search possible atoms and bonds that lead to the types of folds you need? | 23:48 |
| gene_hacker | yeah | 23:48 |
| gene_hacker | but if you want self assembling gears there's this: http://www.chemistryviews.org/details/news/2051985/Metal-Organic_Framework_for_Rotaxanes.html | 23:49 |
| kanzure | are you aiming for small parts, or a substrate that can fold into a larger system on its own? | 23:49 |
| gene_hacker | small parts in a huge repeating lattice | 23:50 |
| kanzure | the lattice would be surface bound? | 23:50 |
| gene_hacker | no it is the lattice | 23:51 |
| gene_hacker | it's a metal organic framework that's supposed to change shape | 23:51 |
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| kanzure | nsh: per your request the other day, forgot to mention this playlist: https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLgO7JBj821uEq-iLteI2BgeXc8JY1PgF2&feature=mh_lolz | 23:59 |
| --- Log closed Sun May 04 00:00:58 2014 | ||
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