| --- Log opened Fri May 09 00:00:55 2014 | ||
| fenn | nmz787_i: the reason small voltages don't normally shock you is the resistance of the skin | 00:01 |
|---|---|---|
| fenn | integrated plasmonics strikes again! | 00:01 |
| fenn | nmz787_i: you left out the actual data, which is the important part | 00:08 |
| fenn | Hwang et al. (2006) found the incidence of "all cancers" in the irradiated population was 40% lower than expected (95 vs. 160.3 cases expected), except for leukaemia in men (6 vs. 1.8 cases expected) and thyroid cancer in women (6 vs. 2.8 cases expected), an increase only detected amongst those exposed before the age of 30. | 00:08 |
| nmz787_i | i'm under 30 | 00:08 |
| nmz787_i | and leukemia would suck | 00:09 |
| fenn | then go eat some potassium-40 | 00:09 |
| nmz787_i | losing specialized I/O would suck | 00:09 |
| fenn | huh? | 00:09 |
| nmz787_i | like arms or legs | 00:09 |
| nmz787_i | becoming quadraplegic | 00:09 |
| nmz787_i | etc | 00:10 |
| fenn | what does that have to do with leukemia? | 00:10 |
| nmz787_i | like, shit, I don't have a contingency plan if I get into a car accident and can't type with my hands anymore | 00:10 |
| nmz787_i | nothing but cancer can include getting crap lopped off | 00:10 |
| nmz787_i | just something i've been thinking in general | 00:10 |
| fenn | since leukemia is made of blood cells it usually just kills you | 00:11 |
| gradstudentbot | I don't think our fume hood is safe. | 00:11 |
| fenn | i think the spleen goes first, then the liver | 00:12 |
| fenn | then you're dead | 00:12 |
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| fenn | org/wiki/Neural_ensemble#Real-time_decoding you can also do ensemble decoding on peripheral nerves | 00:14 |
| fenn | bah | 00:14 |
| fenn | https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neural_ensemble#Real-time_decoding | 00:14 |
| fenn | they pull the nerve endings out of your mangled limb and re-implant into the muscle tissue so they can use EMG to read the nerve signals | 00:15 |
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| fenn | if you get frostbite the nerve dies, but i think it can grow back over a year | 00:16 |
| fenn | also there was something recently about routing around spinal cord injuries | 00:16 |
| @kanzure | hah you're in the pic | 00:17 |
| fenn | A novel combination of electrical stimulation and physical rehabilitation has restored some measure of limb control to 4 patients who were paralyzed following spinal cord injuries. Within days, all regained some voluntary control of their lower limbs an achievement that could dramatically change the way spinal cord injuries are handled going forward. Within 7 months, a man with zero movement and | 00:18 |
| fenn | only limited sensation below his chest regained a significant degree of leg control demonstrating an ability to stand, without help | 00:18 |
| @kanzure | you look too smug | 00:18 |
| fenn | that's my "oh i'm being photographed" pose | 00:18 |
| @kanzure | it's not your "heh i get to shock all these morons" pose? | 00:19 |
| @kanzure | "look at all these potential victims, man" | 00:19 |
| fenn | we had been shocking people for a few hours and it was almost sunset, so we were starting to disassemble the electric fence thingy | 00:19 |
| fenn | nmz787_i: i also read some stuff about severed spinal cord fusion with polyethylene glycol | 00:20 |
| @kanzure | so why did he get to name current after himself? | 00:21 |
| * kanzure looks at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Luigi_Galvani | 00:21 | |
| @kanzure | "known for animal electricity" | 00:21 |
| fenn | "Galvani coined the term animal electricity to describe the force that activated the muscles of his specimens." so it was other people that named it galvanic current (as usual) | 00:22 |
| fenn | i wish we would stop naming things after dead people, or just stop with arbitrary naming in general | 00:23 |
| @kanzure | "In the following year, 1762, he became a permanent anatomist of the university and was appointed honorary lecturer of surgery. That same year he married Lucia Galeazzi, daughter of one of his professors, Gusmano Galeazzi. Galvani moved into the Galeazzi house and helped his research. When Galeazzi died in 1775, Galvani was appointed professor and lecturer in Galeazzi's place." | 00:23 |
| @kanzure | nope no conflict of interest there | 00:23 |
| gradstudentbot | I haven't written the abstract. | 00:23 |
| fenn | well hey he had access to all of galeazzi's stuff so why not | 00:23 |
| @kanzure | "His new appointment consisted of the practical teaching of anatomy, which was conducted through human dissections and the use of the famous anatomical waxes." | 00:24 |
| @kanzure | anatomical waxes? | 00:24 |
| fenn | models | 00:24 |
| @kanzure | hm "Galvani then began taking an interest in the field of "medical electricity." This field emerged in the middle of the 18th century, following the electrical researches and the discovery of the effects of electricity on the human body.[2]" | 00:25 |
| fenn | tesla did a lot of cranky stuff in this area | 00:25 |
| fenn | i mean, bad science | 00:25 |
| fenn | unclear if it actually worked or not | 00:26 |
| @kanzure | " Volta, essentially, objected to Galvani’s conclusions about "animal electric fluid", but the two scientists disagreed respectfully and Volta coined the term "Galvanism" for a direct current of electricity produced by chemical action.[5] Thus, owing to an argument between the two in regard to the source or cause of the electricity, Volta built the first battery in order to specifically disprove his associate's theory. Volta's “pile” ... | 00:26 |
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| @kanzure | ... became known therefore as a voltaic pile." | 00:26 |
| @kanzure | pfft "he trusted his nephew, Giovanni Aldini, to act as the main defender of the theory of animal electricity.[6]" | 00:27 |
| fenn | the aldini cell is composed of a stack of electric eels | 00:27 |
| fenn | i choose you, aldini! | 00:27 |
| fenn | rawr | 00:28 |
| @kanzure | so volta made a battery and then did nothing with it? | 00:30 |
| @kanzure | i am so confused | 00:30 |
| @kanzure | maybe electric circuit design stuff is directly the product of these cell batteries? | 00:34 |
| @kanzure | circuits can exist without batteries, though | 00:34 |
| sheena | anyone got some science on best chicken egg hatching practices? | 00:34 |
| fenn | my understanding is that magnetic circuits didn't take off until the pile (battery) was invented | 00:35 |
| @kanzure | sheena: do you have an incubator? | 00:36 |
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| sheena | yeah, they're incubating now | 00:36 |
| @kanzure | i think there might be temperature optimization things to look into | 00:37 |
| @kanzure | like various schedules of time/duration/temperature | 00:37 |
| @kanzure | and then heat uniformity applied to eggs | 00:37 |
| sheena | mhm | 00:38 |
| fenn | i think constant temperature and humidity is fine | 00:38 |
| @kanzure | huh, egg incubators are sorta cheap | 00:38 |
| @kanzure | that's weird | 00:38 |
| fenn | they're just a light bulb and a pan of water (optional thermostat and humidistat) | 00:38 |
| @kanzure | well a thermocycler is just a lightbulb and .. oh yeah, just a lightbulb. | 00:38 |
| nmz787_i | naming something after someone is kinda the opposite of arbitrary | 00:38 |
| fenn | it's arbitrary because it has nothing to do with the thing itself | 00:39 |
| sheena | mine has forced air heat | 00:39 |
| fenn | especially when talking about physical principles | 00:39 |
| @kanzure | sheena, sounds fancy | 00:39 |
| sheena | humidity sensor but no humidistat | 00:39 |
| sheena | thermostat tho | 00:39 |
| fenn | you can just buy eggs ready to hatch | 00:40 |
| fenn | when you open the box they pop | 00:40 |
| sheena | fenn: im hatching eggs laid by my own (well, my mom's) chickens | 00:40 |
| sheena | cheaper | 00:40 |
| nmz787_i | well it has to do with the name the dude who discovered/popularized it | 00:40 |
| fenn | nmz787_i: which is totally arbitrary | 00:41 |
| nmz787_i | sheena: cool | 00:41 |
| nmz787_i | fenn: nah there's lineage | 00:41 |
| @kanzure | nate do you keep chickens | 00:41 |
| gradstudentbot | Yeah, I read the paper, I just don't remember the details. | 00:41 |
| nmz787_i | nah, but my farmer by the city does | 00:41 |
| nmz787_i | and turkeys and pigs and cows | 00:41 |
| nmz787_i | and sheep | 00:42 |
| sheena | nmz787_i: you know any science about raising super chickens? lol | 00:42 |
| fenn | let them eat bugs | 00:42 |
| nmz787_i | hmm, there has been some talk of GMOing them into something resembling a dinosaur | 00:42 |
| fenn | chickasaurus rex | 00:42 |
| nmz787_i | sheena: are you planning on raising them to chicks, or dissecting the embryos? | 00:42 |
| fenn | come now, don't be rude | 00:43 |
| @kanzure | why bugs | 00:43 |
| fenn | "your baby is beautiful, i would love to dissect his brain" | 00:43 |
| nmz787_i | https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M30-oInTKs4 | 00:43 |
| sheena | raising them to chicks, inbreeding them and eating the inbreds | 00:43 |
| nmz787_i | https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sJduWqtq-Ts | 00:43 |
| sheena | bugs are high in protein. also they love them | 00:44 |
| nmz787_i | I made those :P | 00:44 |
| fenn | kanzure: same reasons humans should eat bugs, basically. they evolved to. more protein and vitamins omega-3 fats than in chicken food | 00:44 |
| gradstudentbot | No no no no! Use your key commands! | 00:44 |
| sheena | nmz787_i: i'm on limited bandwidth, so i'm not doing youtubes :( | 00:45 |
| nmz787_i | they're short vids | 00:45 |
| nmz787_i | but i gotcha | 00:45 |
| sheena | <10 sec? | 00:45 |
| nmz787_i | they are chick embryo heart cells and a heart explant (chunk) growing in -vitro and beating | 00:45 |
| @kanzure | sheena, so i guess you could either buy crickets or go bug hunting | 00:45 |
| @kanzure | or maybe ground crickets | 00:46 |
| nmz787_i | 0:11 and 0:28 | 00:46 |
| sheena | Symptom: Eggs candling clear, No blood rings or embryo growth. Possible cause: Eggs from a flock having no roosters. | 00:46 |
| nmz787_i | nah just get a big yard | 00:46 |
| fenn | nmz787_i: we did that in virology class.. much cooler when you do the tissue culture and see the waves spreading through the layer of cells | 00:46 |
| sheena | they free range | 00:46 |
| @kanzure | you had a virology class that did tissue cultures? no fair | 00:47 |
| fenn | yeah virology was like the only class we did anything with post-18th-century techniques | 00:47 |
| nmz787_i | fenn: yep I cracked the egg, did the cultures, then made the vids | 00:47 |
| fenn | fucking college costs thousands of dollars and then you're playing with popsicle sticks and colored water | 00:47 |
| nmz787_i | that was like 1 of many experiments in that tissue culture class | 00:47 |
| gradstudentbot | The real reason I wanted to join this lab was because I love to clean glassware. | 00:47 |
| nmz787_i | college was more like extended summer camp for me | 00:48 |
| nmz787_i | even though I only went to summer camp like once, and it was a so-so experience | 00:48 |
| nmz787_i | boy scout camp | 00:48 |
| fenn | i probably would have hated summer camp | 00:48 |
| nmz787_i | they helped me cheat with lighters for my fire badge | 00:48 |
| fenn | i got to stay up late on the internet instead | 00:48 |
| nmz787_i | nah we shot .22 guns | 00:48 |
| nmz787_i | that was cool | 00:49 |
| fenn | i had a model rocket, so nyah | 00:49 |
| nmz787_i | or maybe that was the army/natl guard summer camp week/weekend thing | 00:49 |
| nmz787_i | hrmm | 00:49 |
| fenn | actually if i had had any sort of adult in my life who knew how to actually build anything, my life probably would have ended up differently | 00:50 |
| fenn | there's only so much you can do with bricks and a pair of vise grips and no knowledge of electronics | 00:51 |
| nmz787_i | yeah i think i'm pretty lucky that my dad was a decent home builder/remodeler... and could do things like change the brakes or starter or alternator or spark plugs and oil | 00:51 |
| nmz787_i | but yeah his knowledge of electronics wasn't too deep | 00:51 |
| fenn | i'd gotten like 6 wood carving/wood burning kits and still have no idea what they are for | 00:51 |
| nmz787_i | he knew electricity enough to do code grade wiring | 00:51 |
| fenn | wtf is wood burning | 00:52 |
| nmz787_i | i got some good solder a few months ago and can do some SMD stuff OK | 00:52 |
| nmz787_i | QFPs | 00:52 |
| nmz787_i | i tried woodburning with my dads soldering iron when i was a kid | 00:52 |
| sheena | wood burning is art :P | 00:52 |
| fenn | wood burning is a good way to ruin a piece of plastic and stink up the house | 00:53 |
| nmz787_i | plastic!=wood | 00:53 |
| fenn | yeah tell that to a ten year old | 00:53 |
| fenn | a ten year old bent on getting the broken laser printer apart | 00:54 |
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| naish411 | paperbot: http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/B9780124160033000147 | 00:54 |
| paperbot | http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/paperbot/f2225e609d6ee02922398b1187cd4a20.txt | 00:54 |
| fenn | i didn't know they used infrared lasers so i was always confused about why the laser didnt seem to do anything :X | 00:54 |
| fenn | krill farming for fun and profit | 00:56 |
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| fenn | nickel iron batteries are pretty cool | 00:59 |
| fenn | might be a good system for a wind/solar powered boat | 01:00 |
| @kanzure | http://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Circuit_Idea/Philosophy | 01:03 |
| fenn | "let's mix diagrams from different domains, so you need to know a bunch of unrelated stuff to understand what i'm trying to say" | 01:04 |
| @kanzure | http://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Circuit_Idea/Why_Circuit_Ideas_are_Hidden | 01:04 |
| @kanzure | this book looks okay, but it would be nice to see more of a historical perspective on the invention of certain circuits | 01:06 |
| fenn | the little stick figures are really distracting | 01:07 |
| @kanzure | when i flip through the horowitz book it is never quite clear to me why anyone knows anything about analog stuff | 01:10 |
| fenn | the only thing that ever made sense to me while learning electronics was http://falstad.com/circuit/ | 01:11 |
| fenn | actually SEEING the current and voltage REALLY HELPS | 01:11 |
| fenn | who would have thought | 01:11 |
| nmz787_i | is horowitz the art of electronics? | 01:11 |
| fenn | yes | 01:11 |
| nmz787_i | cause i thought that has been pretty good | 01:12 |
| fenn | i didn't like it | 01:12 |
| @kanzure | i wish someone would have stopped me from playing with digital electronics stuff | 01:12 |
| fenn | you need to learn V=IR and they skip over that too quickly | 01:12 |
| @kanzure | like a fucking 555 timer, why was i wasting my time on that | 01:12 |
| nmz787_i | 555s are great! | 01:12 |
| fenn | when was this? | 01:12 |
| @kanzure | yes but they are also obvious | 01:13 |
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| @kanzure | fenn: oh, you know, 2002-2006 | 01:13 |
| fenn | 555 is for people who don't know how to make circuits out of transistors | 01:13 |
| fenn | and before AVRs were invented/cheap | 01:13 |
| @kanzure | i remember doing kits, but then also it was part of some high school classes | 01:13 |
| @kanzure | the point is, most chips are insanely simple/obvious to figure out | 01:13 |
| @kanzure | and therefore should not be the focus of your education | 01:13 |
| nmz787_i | nah you can do PWM with 555s | 01:13 |
| fenn | now that you can buy a microcontroller for $0.30 it doesn't make sense to spend $1.29 for a 555 | 01:13 |
| nmz787_i | to make motor controllers and dimmers | 01:13 |
| @kanzure | i'm not saying it's useless | 01:14 |
| @kanzure | i'm saying that it doesn't really teach you anything about electronics | 01:14 |
| @kanzure | most of the digital electronics stuff can be inferred if you know anything about programming | 01:14 |
| nmz787_i | they usually have better voltage tolerances than something like an AVR | 01:14 |
| fenn | you can talk USB with your microcontroller, and do PWM, and play a MIDI tune on your motor coils | 01:14 |
| nmz787_i | like they can go from 2 or 3 to 18 V | 01:14 |
| fenn | wow i'll keep that in mind next time i have a 17V circuit | 01:15 |
| nmz787_i | cars | 01:15 |
| nmz787_i | tho it turns out car ratings are crazy | 01:15 |
| fenn | voltage divider, voltage regulator, etc | 01:15 |
| nmz787_i | they can do all sorts of weird shit and all the 'right' protection woulda taken me a few weeks to get all figured out and that project wasn't important enough so it got backlogged/canned | 01:16 |
| fenn | cars are full of RF interference and horrible voltage swings | 01:16 |
| nmz787_i | https://docs.google.com/presentation/d/1O3-jwrJn4zr42MAQcltEDqjT0Hx80D7JD2zUPDE4o3A/edit?usp=sharing | 01:16 |
| nmz787_i | .title | 01:16 |
| yoleaux | Beginning Electronics and Microcontrollers | 01:16 |
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| fenn | i'm going to pretend that doesn't exist | 01:17 |
| nmz787_i | i put it together | 01:17 |
| fenn | all you need is an avr, a breadboard, a usb spi programmer, and a bunch of passive parts | 01:18 |
| nmz787_i | that's at the end of the slideshow | 01:18 |
| fenn | the arduino stuff solves that problem okay, but it's expensive with a whole class of kids | 01:18 |
| nmz787_i | teensys are pretty cheap | 01:18 |
| nmz787_i | or msp430s | 01:18 |
| nmz787_i | then use energia to be arduino style | 01:18 |
| @kanzure | but why bother with this stuff; it's like programming any other computer | 01:18 |
| fenn | how much is a "teensy" and what is it exactly? | 01:18 |
| @kanzure | in terms of basic electronics education, you should be teaching the other stuff | 01:19 |
| fenn | kanzure: not really, it teaches you a lot about how computers are built; things you wouldn't learn normally like registers and interrupts and buses | 01:19 |
| nmz787_i | the teensy was a small avr, then it was an ARM ported to Arduino IDE and library and it was a single installer to get it up and running | 01:19 |
| nmz787_i | then he updated to a faster ARM chip | 01:19 |
| nmz787_i | like $19 | 01:19 |
| nmz787_i | the AVR teensy is cheaper | 01:19 |
| fenn | ok whatever | 01:19 |
| @kanzure | registers are almost always covered in introductory digital electronics classes | 01:19 |
| nmz787_i | kanzure: they're practical | 01:20 |
| nmz787_i | you can make stuff do stuff | 01:20 |
| @kanzure | my high school class had a test where you had to either draw a circuit for a shift register or at least verbally explain it in great enough detail to not fail the test | 01:20 |
| fenn | i'm talking about like attiny26, the $2 microcontroller with timers, PWM, ADC, serial port, lots of i/o and DIP package | 01:20 |
| nmz787_i | yeah | 01:20 |
| fenn | $19 for a microcontroller? that's stupid | 01:20 |
| gradstudentbot | None of this data makes sense. | 01:21 |
| nmz787_i | 72 MHz, lots of RAM | 01:21 |
| fenn | it changes what you use it for because then you want to "conserve" your "arduino" | 01:21 |
| fenn | i don't care about MHz or RAM | 01:21 |
| nmz787_i | for the last two weeks or so I've been working on this NXP chip | 01:21 |
| fenn | most of the time you just want to blink an LED and send something on a serial port | 01:21 |
| nmz787_i | 204MHz triple core ARM | 01:21 |
| nmz787_i | PITA let me tell you :P | 01:21 |
| fenn | again, i don't care about your MHz | 01:21 |
| nmz787_i | API/manual is huge | 01:22 |
| nmz787_i | multiple APIs released by the company, then some open implementations, then some other weird shit bla blah | 01:22 |
| nmz787_i | well the project is to emulate a spec called Low Pin Count which is 33MHz | 01:22 |
| @kanzure | also, this is the sort of thing that should actually be taught instead of the other crap: http://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Electronics/Electro-Mechanical_Analogies | 01:22 |
| nmz787_i | so we are lookin at ASM on this thing | 01:22 |
| fenn | kanzure: want to learn about analog? get a bag of transistors, some wires and capacitors and metal plates and a function generator and an oscilloscope | 01:23 |
| nmz787_i | yeah pretty much | 01:23 |
| @kanzure | uh what's wrong with writing some asm? | 01:23 |
| @kanzure | i don't get it | 01:23 |
| fenn | the fluidic analogy actually holds up pretty well, i dunno why it has such a bad rep | 01:23 |
| nmz787_i | this is the $20 204MHz board I'm playing with now, sold as a $120 ish $ oscope/siggen/logic analyzer www.embeddedartists.com/products/app/labtool.php | 01:24 |
| nmz787_i | but the firmware and software are not really great | 01:24 |
| fenn | i have a $20 android cellphone with camera, touchscreen, hundreds of MB of flash storage, audio i/o, sensors, battery, etc etc etc | 01:24 |
| nmz787_i | kanzure: nothing, just figuring out all the port registers and ISR crap and oh wait, the interrupt latency is longer than my data clock needs to be | 01:25 |
| fenn | a standard programming environment, and way more MHz than that | 01:25 |
| nmz787_i | oh let me try this other register that says you can hook it up to GPIO and it detects rising edge... oh but that has latency too | 01:25 |
| nmz787_i | blah | 01:25 |
| fenn | did i mention it fits in your pocket | 01:25 |
| nmz787_i | oh look at the Serial GPIO module that can latch an external clock | 01:25 |
| nmz787_i | blah | 01:25 |
| nmz787_i | yeah but you can't actually get GPIO out of that easily | 01:26 |
| fenn | 2 channel analog signal generator (40kHz BW) | 01:26 |
| fenn | lol | 01:26 |
| fenn | what are the voltages on their signal generators | 01:27 |
| nmz787_i | you'd need to remove the camera port, or cut the data traces on it, somehow solder on, then hope you can use that as data input.. but the protocol requires tristate bus, i.e. going from output to input, so camera port cant handle that | 01:27 |
| gradstudentbot | Hey, does anyone have an extra undergrad? | 01:27 |
| fenn | is anything TTL anymore anyway? | 01:27 |
| fenn | i2c is pretty accessible | 01:27 |
| fenn | there's probably an SPI somewhere too | 01:28 |
| nmz787_i | maybe | 01:28 |
| fenn | sd card is basically spi | 01:28 |
| nmz787_i | even the intel galileo uses GPIO via i2c link, so its port speeds are pretty limited | 01:29 |
| fenn | these SOC's have so many ports and doodads | 01:29 |
| fenn | it's getting the documentation that's the problem | 01:29 |
| fenn | LabTool is a lot better than what i had only 6 years ago | 01:30 |
| fenn | oh, for accessibility how about raspberrypi | 01:31 |
| fenn | .c 99EUR in USD | 01:32 |
| nmz787_i | http://digilentinc.com/Products/Detail.cfm?NavPath=2,842,1018&Prod=ANALOG-DISCOVERY | 01:32 |
| yoleaux | convert euro99 (euros) to US dollars = $136.98 (US dollars) | 01:32 |
| nmz787_i | that is supposedly much much better than labtool | 01:32 |
| nmz787_i | its a whole lab setup supposedly | 01:33 |
| nmz787_i | http://digilentinc.com/Data/Products/ANALOG-DISCOVERY/Discovery_TRM_RevB_1.pdf | 01:33 |
| fenn | you kids are so spoiled | 01:34 |
| nmz787_i | my 4 ch oscope can do 250 MHz on each with 6MPts per channel | 01:34 |
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| nmz787_i | since its an 8 bit ADC each data point is a byte... though I guess there can be overhead... but that's basically a gig just for data, not to mention whatever OS it has on it (which I'm noticing bogs down a bit on menu reaction times with all the channels on and the sig gen on too) | 01:35 |
| nmz787_i | the Cypress PSoCs are cheap as of recent | 01:36 |
| nmz787_i | http://www.cypress.com/?rid=92146 | 01:36 |
| nmz787_i | $4 | 01:36 |
| fenn | i think i'd rather have an analog tektronix scope for analog stuff | 01:36 |
| nmz787_i | they have some analog built into the SOC | 01:37 |
| fenn | i've noticed with computer displays like USB scopes, you miss out on the direct sub-second correlation between "something happens in the environment" and "something happens on the screen" | 01:38 |
| nmz787_i | there was some other analog built-in SOCs from Maxim I think | 01:38 |
| nmz787_i | but they are all used for power management these days I think | 01:38 |
| fenn | too much latency between the scope and the display i mean | 01:38 |
| nmz787_i | meh | 01:39 |
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| nmz787_i | I can't see protocols anyway | 01:39 |
| nmz787_i | as long as shit lines up in the scope reliably | 01:39 |
| fenn | that's what bus pirate is for | 01:39 |
| nmz787_i | eh | 01:39 |
| fenn | why are you debugging protocols with a scope | 01:39 |
| nmz787_i | bus pirate is pretty slow | 01:39 |
| fenn | a scope is for designing analog circuits | 01:39 |
| nmz787_i | digital is the new analog | 01:39 |
| fenn | ok use a logic analyzer | 01:39 |
| nmz787_i | haven't you heard? | 01:39 |
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| nmz787_i | yeah but my logic analyzer is the labtool, which uses the same demo board that I was debugging, and that confused the driver situation | 01:40 |
| fenn | the LabTool does 100MHz 11 channel logic analyzer | 01:40 |
| gradstudentbot | I don't know what to tell you, I thought I would have graduated by now. | 01:40 |
| fenn | oh i see | 01:40 |
| fenn | you need another laptop :P | 01:40 |
| nmz787_i | plus i didnt get the labtool before I got the oscope :P because I wanted 4 ch for my CCD project | 01:40 |
| fenn | "The feature rich Windows software interface" is an anti-feature for me | 01:41 |
| nmz787_i | for which? | 01:41 |
| nmz787_i | I think labtool is totally open | 01:41 |
| fenn | hm nevermind it uses QT | 01:41 |
| nmz787_i | I'm not sure about the digilent | 01:42 |
| fenn | so where's this $20 board you are talking about? | 01:43 |
| nmz787_i | kanzure: do you know about this? I've got an email or two from them http://www.youngstartup.com/ | 01:43 |
| nmz787_i | http://www.embeddedartists.com/products/lpcxpresso/lpclink2.php | 01:43 |
| nmz787_i | people have it working with libopencm3 so the toolchain can be all linux | 01:44 |
| nmz787_i | but the IDE the company recommends is windows linux mac | 01:44 |
| nmz787_i | based on Eclipse | 01:44 |
| nmz787_i | manual is pretty long www.nxp.com/documents/user_manual/UM10503.pdf | 01:45 |
| fenn | NXP LPC13xx | 01:46 |
| nmz787_i | they have decent demos, but relatively crappy docs for a beginner | 01:46 |
| fenn | TODO | 01:46 |
| nmz787_i | the LPCLink2 is an LPC4370 | 01:46 |
| gradstudentbot | Got halfway through figuring out all the cell signalling molecules in psoriasis when the cells died and the data couldn't be replicated, so psoriasis is really hard to cure guys don't get it | 01:46 |
| nmz787_i | has an 80MSPS ADC on board | 01:46 |
| nmz787_i | 0.1 to 1.2Vpp though I believe | 01:46 |
| nmz787_i | or close to that range | 01:47 |
| fenn | wow that might be useful for software defined radio | 01:47 |
| nmz787_i | yep | 01:47 |
| nmz787_i | hackrf | 01:47 |
| nmz787_i | uses it or something like it | 01:47 |
| nmz787_i | the 4330 or 50 | 01:47 |
| nmz787_i | though they use the SGPIO | 01:47 |
| nmz787_i | not the ADC | 01:47 |
| nmz787_i | or maybe they use both | 01:47 |
| nmz787_i | and use SGPIO to communicate, I'm not suer | 01:47 |
| fenn | both would make sense | 01:48 |
| nmz787_i | https://github.com/mossmann/hackrf/wiki | 01:48 |
| nmz787_i | https://github.com/mossmann/hackrf/wiki/Hardware-Components#block-diagrams | 01:48 |
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| fenn | weird. they use a 22MSPS analog frontend | 01:50 |
| nmz787_i | and mention 40MiBs | 01:51 |
| nmz787_i | but isn't a MiB about the same as a megabyte? | 01:51 |
| fenn | "Send an email to Mike or submit a support request to Maxim if you want a copy." sigh | 01:52 |
| nmz787_i | of? | 01:52 |
| fenn | .c 1 MiB to MB | 01:52 |
| yoleaux | convert 1 MiB (mebibyte) to megabytes = 1.049 MB (megabytes) | 01:52 |
| fenn | register map for some analog component | 01:52 |
| fenn | 2.3 to 2.7GHz transciever | 01:53 |
| nmz787_i | maxim is just up the road from me | 01:53 |
| fenn | god forbid someone make an unlicensed spectrum transmitter | 01:53 |
| nmz787_i | :P | 01:53 |
| fenn | maxim was always secretive and cagey | 01:53 |
| nmz787_i | fenn: do you know a polymer chemist or materials scientist who is unemployed? | 01:55 |
| nmz787_i | :D | 01:55 |
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| fenn | 20Msps is not enough | 01:57 |
| fenn | that means you can only decode "slow" wifi signals | 01:57 |
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| gradstudentbot | It's not really significant, but there's definitely a trend. | 01:57 |
| gradstudentbot | I think I just cured cancer. Wow. | 01:57 |
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| ebowden | LOL | 01:58 |
| fenn | i know of a guy i austin who's retired-ish, i forget his name | 01:59 |
| sheena | heard of dnrs? http://sharonwachsler.com/freedom-ive-recovered-my-health/ | 01:59 |
| nmz787_i | fenn: where are you hanging out these days? | 01:59 |
| fenn | sheena: chronic lime disease is a crock | 02:00 |
| sheena | indeed. its the dnrs im interested in | 02:00 |
| nmz787_i | fenn: http://github.com/OpenLabTools/OpenLabTools/wiki/Tutorials | 02:02 |
| nmz787_i | They have the .stl files and instructions and information on the optical theory. | 02:02 |
| nmz787_i | raspberry pi motorized microscope | 02:03 |
| fenn | lumosity is also a crock | 02:03 |
| nmz787_i | ok well its bedtime | 02:03 |
| nmz787_i | fenn: if you're interested in continuing the laser cutter type project, but merge it with that microscope... I don't know what you'd want for pay, but maybe I could convince kanzure to pitch in with me to get you to work on it some more | 02:05 |
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| fenn | jesus christ all this talk about how fantastic "dnrs" is but no explanation of what it is | 02:05 |
| nmz787_i | instead of CO2 laser, I'd like to try mounting a blu-ray writer optical sled next to the microscope, and use video feedback to smooth out the motion of the stage | 02:06 |
| nmz787_i | or adding a beam splitter and sending the laser from a focusable laser pointer down the microscope via its optics, which some papers have done with trinocular scopes | 02:07 |
| nmz787_i | which could also be a route, figure out how to add my motors to an (mine or an new chinese ebay) trinocular scope | 02:08 |
| sheena | i cant find a pirate of their dvd anywhere | 02:08 |
| nmz787_i | the idea was to use a reticle though, so I wanted two separate optical columns actually | 02:08 |
| nmz787_i | so it could be the existing laser cutter table you drew up, with two of those open source microscope setups above it | 02:09 |
| nmz787_i | then the laser could be independent of the tracking optics | 02:09 |
| fenn | or just use a binocular scope and live with "only" one video channel | 02:09 |
| nmz787_i | so you could change the spot size by defocusing | 02:09 |
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| nmz787_i | yeah, I think the trinocular means it has a camera port though | 02:10 |
| fenn | is that common on inexpensive microscopes? | 02:10 |
| nmz787_i | which then if you want to shove a laser in, depends on whether the objective is infinity corrected or not | 02:10 |
| nmz787_i | though new chinese optics can be had that are | 02:11 |
| nmz787_i | the new chinese trinoculars on ebay are like $180 | 02:11 |
| fenn | that's pretty good | 02:11 |
| nmz787_i | but I think their stages are just the microscope slide holder | 02:11 |
| nmz787_i | which I can't tell if would be OK or not | 02:11 |
| fenn | back up a second, what are you trying to do? | 02:12 |
| nmz787_i | say print a grid super small on my laser printer | 02:12 |
| fenn | microfluidics? | 02:12 |
| gradstudentbot | The thing about this particular theory is that it's excellent at predicting ethnic conflicts which have already happened. | 02:12 |
| fenn | PDMS molds? | 02:12 |
| nmz787_i | then shove that on the stage of a motorized microscope with motors that can do DC or microstepping (I've got geared versions of the latter) | 02:13 |
| nmz787_i | watch the grid move with video camera | 02:13 |
| nmz787_i | and use the velocity/acell/motion to feedback to the motorcontrol | 02:13 |
| fenn | moire quadrature mask works ok | 02:13 |
| nmz787_i | track the cross hairs of the grid | 02:13 |
| nmz787_i | then the other optical column would be a blue laser | 02:14 |
| nmz787_i | which would expose some photoresist | 02:14 |
| nmz787_i | which would be a thin layer, on the same stage that the grid was on, but a fixed offset away | 02:14 |
| fenn | so your laser is out of focus | 02:15 |
| nmz787_i | they would be separate columns so adjustable | 02:15 |
| fenn | but you can't see what the laser is doing and track the grid at the same time | 02:15 |
| nmz787_i | the bluray drive would have some photodiodes in it that you might be able to use | 02:16 |
| nmz787_i | otherwise you'd need to do a calibration map | 02:16 |
| nmz787_i | you don't need to though, as I see it | 02:16 |
| fenn | okay | 02:16 |
| nmz787_i | since its the same stage, the video is just used for positioning and smoothing out and screw inconsistencies | 02:16 |
| nmz787_i | if that can't be done realtime, I'm thinking it could be precomputed | 02:17 |
| fenn | emc supports screw calibration profiles | 02:17 |
| fenn | but not camera tracking | 02:17 |
| nmz787_i | move all over the grid with constant motor speed, analyze acelleration profile of video | 02:17 |
| nmz787_i | correct for that | 02:17 |
| nmz787_i | i always mess up acceleration | 02:18 |
| nmz787_i | the spelling | 02:18 |
| nmz787_i | you might be able to do the same for focus | 02:18 |
| nmz787_i | in case the screw is weird in the Z | 02:18 |
| nmz787_i | or, towards the camera | 02:18 |
| fenn | or your translation plane is not parallel to the focal plane | 02:19 |
| nmz787_i | yeah, for that I'd thought to have a 3-point double ball joint mount | 02:19 |
| fenn | that's a different concept than screw calibration though | 02:19 |
| nmz787_i | like a hexapod only with 3 | 02:19 |
| nmz787_i | but yeah, those two could compound | 02:20 |
| nmz787_i | and make things hard | 02:20 |
| nmz787_i | hmm | 02:20 |
| fenn | all hypothetical at this point | 02:20 |
| fenn | vibration might screw things up | 02:20 |
| nmz787_i | Simon Field says build it on a sand box | 02:21 |
| fenn | backlash might be nonlinear/unresolvable | 02:21 |
| fenn | heh a vat of corn starch | 02:21 |
| fenn | do we have tractor beams yet | 02:22 |
| nmz787_i | "If you put a pinhole in your stage near each of the three support legs, an image will be projected through it behind the stage. You can examine this projected image for focus clarity without the USB microscope. If you change the image to a simple picture of three point sources of light, you can focus it by hand the first time, then put a PIN photodiode at each projected spot (so you'd need nine photodiodes). If the stage goes out of | 02:23 |
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| fenn | nine photodiodes? not three? | 02:23 |
| nmz787_i | but then I think you'd need to make sure those PIN diodes were coplanar with the translation plane | 02:24 |
| fenn | i guess this is some kind of kinematic tilt table to correct for off axis alignment errors? | 02:24 |
| nmz787_i | "The same trick lets you register multiple images in a panorama. As you move the stage, the image of the three dots moves until it hits another set of three photodiodes. Now you know how far you have moved, with an accuracy of a few tens of nanometers, depending on how far the diodes are from the holes in the stage." | 02:24 |
| nmz787_i | yeah basically | 02:24 |
| nmz787_i | that was when I was thinking of using DLP | 02:25 |
| fenn | you can still use DLP :P | 02:25 |
| nmz787_i | but then I found a paper showing that photoresist has interpixel noise in the developed product | 02:25 |
| nmz787_i | so F that | 02:26 |
| fenn | from diffraction? | 02:26 |
| fenn | or switching sparkles | 02:26 |
| nmz787_i | simon had said a while ago that they put tons of money into bluray beam shape, so just use those optics | 02:26 |
| nmz787_i | they're certainly cheaper than dlp boxes | 02:26 |
| fenn | yeah | 02:27 |
| nmz787_i | i think the mirrors are just slightly smaller than the pixel to pixel center spacing | 02:27 |
| fenn | i want to play with DLP to make 3d printer stuffs tho | 02:27 |
| nmz787_i | or yeah some weird physics of the switching | 02:27 |
| nmz787_i | kanzure sent me a cheap ebay DLP last year that I hacked with an msp430 to make it think the fan was running | 02:28 |
| fenn | small pixels would just make a screen door effect | 02:28 |
| nmz787_i | since the bulb was dead | 02:28 |
| nmz787_i | I hooked up my old headlamp LED to the input of the color wheel and it works OK | 02:28 |
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| nmz787_i | I could shine a laser pointer in there and see an OK image | 02:28 |
| fenn | you can cure resin with it? | 02:28 |
| nmz787_i | not very even lightting tho | 02:28 |
| nmz787_i | I also don't know how well the DLP will stand up to 405nm | 02:29 |
| fenn | laser pointers have terrible optics | 02:29 |
| nmz787_i | longevity wise | 02:29 |
| nmz787_i | yeah so the bluray is nice in that regard :) | 02:29 |
| fenn | why would 405nm do anything to silicon mirrors | 02:30 |
| nmz787_i | and has the focusing voice coil, maybe access to the focusing photodiodes (which also probably are used for overall power management to the laser, brightness feedback is correct, not current feedback ) | 02:30 |
| fenn | actually they probably sputter them with aluminum | 02:30 |
| nmz787_i | its just getting to be higher energy | 02:30 |
| nmz787_i | charges build up with photons, etc | 02:31 |
| fenn | it's total power that matters, not energy | 02:31 |
| nmz787_i | sure | 02:31 |
| fenn | i mean you're not doing GW femtosecond pulses or anything | 02:31 |
| nmz787_i | but freq helps | 02:31 |
| nmz787_i | you can bust wattage into an IR laser and they still don't ionize air like a single photon of deep UV would | 02:32 |
| nmz787_i | photons are quanta | 02:32 |
| fenn | so they say | 02:33 |
| nmz787_i | and thats how the laser produces em | 02:33 |
| nmz787_i | anyway, yep | 02:33 |
| fenn | well if your microscope has a slide, might as well use it | 02:33 |
| fenn | 2 axis table i mbean | 02:34 |
| fenn | blerf | 02:34 |
| fenn | i should go to bed too | 02:34 |
| nmz787_i | yeah maybe glue a few slides together then a plate onto the top of that | 02:34 |
| nmz787_i | or make that riser thing from metal or something | 02:34 |
| nmz787_i | i don't know how to convert the motor to mount on the scope tho | 02:34 |
| nmz787_i | anyway | 02:35 |
| nmz787_i | yeah, 'night | 02:35 |
| nmz787_i | think about it, let me know tomorrow or something | 02:35 |
| jrayhawk | is dnrs like neurofeedback | 02:35 |
| fenn | jrayhawk: it is a coaching seminar neuroplastic dvd apparently | 02:36 |
| fenn | "participants will learn to recognize the unconscious reactions associated with a Limbic System impairment and how to consciously interrupt the associated trauma cycle. Through various methodologies and repetitious neuroplasticity based exercises, participants are instructed on how to act back on the brain to restore normal Limbic System function." | 02:37 |
| fenn | sounds like straight CBT to me | 02:38 |
| gradstudentbot | This laproscopic camera is so easy to use. | 02:38 |
| jrayhawk | huh | 02:38 |
| fenn | .wik cbt | 02:38 |
| yoleaux | "CBT may refer to:" — http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cbt | 02:38 |
| fenn | blah | 02:38 |
| fenn | cognitive behavioral therapy.. it's a sort of logic debugging combined with practice | 02:39 |
| jrayhawk | Yeah. | 02:39 |
| fenn | the last thing people with MCS need is another shyster selling a DVD seminar coaching session of the same bullshit every doctor is trying to sell them | 02:40 |
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| jrayhawk | also in what sense is chronic lyme infection bullshit | 02:40 |
| jrayhawk | other than that the standard of care diagnostic criteria is insane | 02:40 |
| fenn | well, for one, there is no lyme disease in the supposed cases | 02:41 |
| QuantumG | there's some controversy over the diagnostic criteria, yeah. | 02:41 |
| fenn | so that's a big red flag | 02:41 |
| jrayhawk | no... lyme... disease...? | 02:41 |
| QuantumG | rarity of cases makes diagnosis hard and there's a rarity of cases because diagnosis is hard. | 02:42 |
| fenn | if borrellia is present you will see borrellia DNA on a PCR test | 02:42 |
| jrayhawk | while I am willing to believe that alternative practicioners are a little overeager to diagnose stuff, I am also highly aware based on the scientific literature that the CDC is overeager to underdiagnose it. | 02:42 |
| fenn | if it's rare how come "everyone has it" | 02:42 |
| jrayhawk | Although the CDC came around about six months ago and actually admitted that their numbers are an order of magnitude too low | 02:43 |
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| jrayhawk | Lyme can go cystic in the face of antibiotics. | 02:43 |
| fenn | oh i'm sure there is undiagnosed lyme disease, but it's easy to diagnose | 02:43 |
| jrayhawk | It's not easy to diagnose. | 02:43 |
| fenn | please explain how you can get lyme disease and not have anti-borrellia antibodies or DNA | 02:44 |
| jrayhawk | The false negative rate on the antibody test is enormous. | 02:44 |
| jrayhawk | The DNA test would fail in the face of a latent cystic infection. | 02:44 |
| jrayhawk | Though I agree the DNA test is a much better one than the rest of them. | 02:44 |
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| jrayhawk | It will at least provide meaningful results when the infection flares back up. | 02:48 |
| fenn | it's interesting that they mention postural orthostatic tachycardia syndrome on that MCS page | 02:49 |
| fenn | it's related to collagen deficiency (and possibly methylation?) and causes chronic adrenal overstimulation | 02:50 |
| fenn | which would result in the stress dysfunction associated with chronic fatigue and the various "sensitivities" | 02:51 |
| fenn | it's also something doctors don't know how to fix, for some reason | 02:52 |
| fenn | an obvious mechanical/fluid problem ought to be easy to fix | 02:53 |
| fenn | "here, wear these compression stockings and eat some vitamin C" | 02:54 |
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| fenn | sheena: as far as i can tell, "DNRS" is https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cognitive_behavioral_therapy | 03:15 |
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| sheena1 | ugh i lost my internet connection partway through the dnrs convo. was there any more? does nyone have a log? kanzure? | 09:14 |
| @_archels | see topic | 09:14 |
| sheena1 | _archels: thanks | 09:17 |
| sheena1 | _archels: do you know what time zone it's in? | 09:19 |
| eudoxia | PDT i think | 09:20 |
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| sheena1 | ty | 09:21 |
| sheena1 | fenn: i think its related, but set up a bit differently.. seems like its more about changing behaviour first, then thoughts/etc follow? im just interested in learning more about it and thought someone might have seen it before | 09:23 |
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| chris_99 | http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_emerging_technologies | 10:04 |
| chris_99 | theres some really neat stuff | 10:04 |
| chris_99 | on there | 10:04 |
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| eudoxia | >Molecular assembler | 10:54 |
| eudoxia | i wish wiki, i wish | 10:54 |
| chris_99 | one day | 10:55 |
| chris_99 | one day | 10:55 |
| chris_99 | we've got neutron guns, electron guns, we more or less could create arbitrary atoms i reckon if we spent the dough | 10:56 |
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| eudoxia | i remember seeing something in kanzure's old mediawiki about an assembler using atom holography | 10:59 |
| @kanzure | it didn't work | 11:03 |
| eudoxia | aw | 11:04 |
| @kanzure | http://www.symmetrymagazine.org/article/may-2014/saving-the-feynman-van | 11:08 |
| @kanzure | "It was fellow Pasadena resident Michael Shermer, founder of the Skeptics Society, who told him about the van in 2012. Blackley knew right away that he had to help save it. “The universe is telling me I've gotta do this,” he says." | 11:10 |
| @kanzure | well, whatever | 11:11 |
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| @kanzure | eudoxia: besides, it requires impractically low temperatures | 12:31 |
| @kanzure | 10:04 < tromp_> Ethereum's CH says "Ralph is interested in DAOs and also is assisting us in developing a new signature cryptosystem we are developing as a replacement for ECDSA" | 12:31 |
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| cpopell`sknxxx | Ugh | 12:56 |
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| eudoxia | ughhh | 12:57 |
| eudoxia | tell him to go back to work on his book | 12:57 |
| cpopell` | I interviewed with the chief legal counsel at that company, that was unpleasant | 12:57 |
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| @kanzure | it's curious that ralph would choose to make his appearance in the cryptocurrency world by going straight to ethereum | 12:58 |
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| @kanzure | 11:01 < maaku> kanzure: I actually applied for a job at nanorex some years ago, then bailed on the interview process after watching some videos of their product | 13:04 |
| andytoshi | o.O i didn't know merkle was involved in that stuff | 13:06 |
| andytoshi | everything this channel is about is a whole world i didn't know existed.. | 13:07 |
| @kanzure | it's because of a temporal anomaly | 13:07 |
| @kanzure | you see, the singularity happened in 1969 | 13:08 |
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| @kanzure | i could have sworn that i fixed the images in nanoengineer.git's README | 13:09 |
| @kanzure | i clearly remember editing the image urls | 13:09 |
| @kanzure | but none of my git repos have this change? | 13:09 |
| andytoshi | git log master --not origin/master | 13:12 |
| andytoshi | oh, i guess "none" means none :P | 13:12 |
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| @kanzure | hm i don't have WormGearAnimation1.gif | 13:21 |
| @kanzure | aha, eudoxia has it | 13:21 |
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| delinquentme | fenn, kanzure https://wit.ai/jobs per the convo on NLP | 13:25 |
| @kanzure | .title | 13:25 |
| yoleaux | Jobs | 13:25 |
| @kanzure | ugh | 13:25 |
| @kanzure | i hate these people already | 13:25 |
| eudoxia | kanzure: all the files are linked to here http://wiki.transhumani.com/index.php?title=Molecular_Machinery&action=edit | 13:38 |
| @kanzure | eudoxia: https://github.com/kanzure/nanoengineer/pull/7 | 13:38 |
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| @kanzure | there, now the readme is fixed up | 13:39 |
| eudoxia | cool | 13:40 |
| delinquentme | Is there a specific term used for animals which are raised to become food? | 13:40 |
| delinquentme | 'livestock' ? | 13:40 |
| @kanzure | "Hello Mr. Bryan Bishop, My Name is J Stampedo, and I've come across your fantastiuc wrapper. However, I've come across a limitation, and not being a developer myself, I don't know how I could include the namespace option: Below, I've included the error and the section where I believe it should be changed. I'd be happy to offer 25$ via paypal for the inclusion. Thanks in advance for you considerations." | 13:43 |
| delinquentme | what codebase is this? | 13:45 |
| @kanzure | he doesn't say :) | 13:45 |
| eudoxia | i assumed python-brlcad | 13:45 |
| eudoxia | cause wrapper | 13:45 |
| @kanzure | i think https://github.com/kanzure/python-wmi-client-wrapper | 13:45 |
| @kanzure | because i think this is the same person https://github.com/kanzure/python-wmi-client-wrapper/issues/3 | 13:45 |
| delinquentme | cool | 13:46 |
| delinquentme | wish he had deeper pockets | 13:46 |
| delinquentme | ask about his use for it | 13:46 |
| @kanzure | i'm afraid to, this can lead only to more suffering | 13:47 |
| @kanzure | "root/MicrosoftIISv2" | 13:47 |
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| @kanzure | isn't IIS up to version 8 or 9 now? | 13:47 |
| @kanzure | so he wants to use version 2? | 13:47 |
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| cluckj | could be spoofing the ID | 13:48 |
| @kanzure | cluckj: show me history of electrical circuit stuff | 13:49 |
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| cluckj | what kind of history? | 13:49 |
| kanzure | there are bunches of people who like to theorize about memristors, but where's all the "philosophy of circuits" of people complaining about the lack of resistors, transistors, capacitors, etc. | 13:50 |
| kanzure | i would imagine that, in the past, people were thinking about such things, right? | 13:50 |
| cluckj | probably | 13:50 |
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| kanzure | wikipedia's history sections on this topic are pathetic | 13:51 |
| cluckj | that's pretty out of my field of expertise, but I'll ask people who know about it if you don't need it right now | 13:51 |
| kanzure | no rush | 13:52 |
| cluckj | you're looking for history about the development of electronic components? | 13:53 |
| kanzure | most of electronics is presented as "and then god said, this is a low-pass band filter circuit" as opposed to "and then someone tinkered around for 30 years trying to figure out this circuit" | 13:53 |
| cluckj | ah | 13:54 |
| cluckj | that should be pretty easy for me to find | 13:54 |
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| fenn | "kanzure> you see, the singularity happened in 1969" did i tell you that? i didn't know anybody else was aware of this fact | 15:05 |
| fenn | a lot of basic electronics theory was laid down in the 1920's | 15:07 |
| fenn | back when "radio" was as futuristic as "atomic" was in the 1950's, except any kid could build one from bits of wire | 15:08 |
| kanzure | but weren't we wiring buildings and making giant electronic billboards in the 1800s? | 15:08 |
| fenn | electrical, not electronic | 15:08 |
| fenn | and that wasn't until 1900 either | 15:08 |
| fenn | https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Butterworth_filter | 15:09 |
| kanzure | maybe that robotwisdom page has something to say about this timeline | 15:09 |
| fenn | i just love that name | 15:09 |
| fenn | it reminds me of waffles i guess | 15:09 |
| kanzure | yep he looks like a time traveler to me http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jorn_Barger | 15:10 |
| kanzure | ugh i can't find the page | 15:11 |
| gradstudentbot | I forgot to make a control group. | 15:11 |
| kanzure | here we go | 15:11 |
| kanzure | http://web.archive.org/web/20070105011641/http://www.robotwisdom.com/ai/timeline/0000.html | 15:11 |
| kanzure | hm. nope. | 15:11 |
| fenn | jeez 1995? | 15:12 |
| kanzure | 1925: Vannevar Bush's Product Integraph integrates complex curves using analog electronics | 15:12 |
| kanzure | "IBM Type 603 Electronic Multiplier, 1946, the first electronic calculator" (1932) | 15:13 |
| kanzure | that's disappointing | 15:13 |
| fenn | Barger attempts to "map out a programmable taxonomy of human emotions." good luck without using neuroscience | 15:13 |
| delinquentme | So I called the CDC... and As soon as I mentioned having something that sounded like a product | 15:14 |
| delinquentme | BOILERPLATE statement about not backing products + happily ushered me to contact the FDA | 15:14 |
| kanzure | "1821: Faraday's electric motor" okay, well, surely the motor was being used in circuits between 1821 and.. uh, later stuff. | 15:14 |
| delinquentme | sigh. | 15:14 |
| * delinquentme needs hugs | 15:14 | |
| kanzure | why were you bothering the CDC? wtf | 15:14 |
| delinquentme | I think I need to approach someone from linked in who works at the CDC | 15:15 |
| fenn | because he's on the verge of infecting millions of pigs with contaminated whatever broth | 15:15 |
| delinquentme | ^ | 15:15 |
| fenn | delinquentme: don't do that | 15:15 |
| fenn | i mean, don't infect millions of pigs... | 15:16 |
| delinquentme | Or to sort out whether handling wound healing within pig populations, which are notoriously brutal to one another ... might lower disease transfer rates | 15:16 |
| kanzure | "From an early age Wheatstone took an active interest in electricity. As a youngster he had bought a book by Volta and had duplicated many of the experiments there" | 15:16 |
| kanzure | oh i wonder what was in that book | 15:16 |
| fenn | so volta actually did stuff? | 15:16 |
| gradstudentbot | Yeah, I'll be sure to snore that science lamp right away. | 15:17 |
| kanzure | quickly, to the bookatorium! | 15:17 |
| fenn | i got nothin by volta | 15:17 |
| kanzure | wikipedia doesn't mention said book http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alessandro_Volta | 15:18 |
| fenn | vroom vroom *fires up teh chrome* | 15:18 |
| fenn | god i'm sick of the upgrade game | 15:19 |
| gradstudentbot | Are there any of those hamster ovaries left? | 15:19 |
| kanzure | they were all eaten | 15:20 |
| kanzure | nom nom | 15:20 |
| fenn | libgen doesn't work in dillo | 15:20 |
| kanzure | "These letters of Mr Volta contain some experiments between muscle and muscle of prepared frogs and in live frogs, which I published as my own. I cannot do less injustice to myself, than observe, that I made these experiments at Turin, in " | 15:21 |
| kanzure | oh this is probably galvani complaining about volta stealing stuff | 15:22 |
| kanzure | http://books.google.com/books?id=Ql0UAAAAQAAJ&pg=PR8&dq=volta+experiments&hl=en&sa=X&ei=hjhtU6aaKOez8AGRsYHgAw&ved=0CFkQ6AEwBg#v=onepage&q=volta%20experiments&f=false | 15:22 |
| fenn | well i found something in russian | 15:22 |
| fenn | how do i use .tr | 15:23 |
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| kanzure | does this mean that the start of electronic circuit stuff was just people poking around at nervous systems? | 15:24 |
| fenn | yes | 15:25 |
| fenn | unless you count the "baghdad battery" which was used for electroplating | 15:25 |
| kanzure | mostly just things that could be (mis)construed to be graph-like | 15:26 |
| fenn | i'm going to start calling things "animaltronic" to reflect the original nomenclature | 15:27 |
| fenn | the primordial charge carrying particle is the animaltron | 15:27 |
| kanzure | "fenn's reformed encyclopedia of modern science and technology" | 15:28 |
| kanzure | i think animal was because of animation | 15:30 |
| kanzure | so it should probably just be animatron and animatronics | 15:30 |
| kanzure | .ety animal | 15:30 |
| yoleaux | animal (n.): "early 14c. (but rare before c.1600, and not in KJV, 1611), "any living creature" (including humans), from Latin animale "living being, being which breathes," neuter of animalis "animate, living; of the air," from anima "breath, soul; a …" — http://etymonline.com/index.php?term=animal | 15:30 |
| fenn | .ety animatronic | 15:30 |
| yoleaux | Sorry, I couldn't find the etymology of that. | 15:30 |
| fenn | breathing doesn't have anything to do with it, that's "spirit" | 15:31 |
| fenn | .d anima | 15:31 |
| yoleaux | anima (/ˈanɪmə/): n. 1. (In Jungian psychology) the feminine part of a man’s personality — http://is.gd/3MOE5T | 15:31 |
| fenn | wtbloodyfuck | 15:31 |
| fenn | "vital impulse" | 15:32 |
| fenn | "death instinct"??? | 15:32 |
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| fenn | "racial unconscious" | 15:33 |
| fenn | okay there's some weird stuff in here | 15:33 |
| kanzure | uh oh the weird part of the internet is acting up again | 15:34 |
| fenn | it's not the internet, it's the thesaurus | 15:34 |
| kanzure | any society is only as warped as the square of the number of connections | 15:35 |
| kanzure | *number of internet connections | 15:35 |
| kanzure | no wait, that's a lower bound | 15:35 |
| fenn | upper bound | 15:35 |
| kanzure | up, down, whatever | 15:35 |
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| gradstudentbot | Paper submitted. | 15:36 |
| fenn | unless your warpage factor is an imaginary number, in which case it's sideways | 15:36 |
| kanzure | is there an ontology that doesn't have a basis in vitalism for electronics and basic biology | 15:36 |
| cluckj | kanzure, so a lot of the stuff about ICs and electronic components is tied up in larger technologies that they were a part of | 15:36 |
| kanzure | i know where ICs come from | 15:37 |
| cluckj | like radio, radar, the shift from analog to digital computing | 15:37 |
| gradstudentbot | Yeah, but biobricks don't even work. | 15:37 |
| * fenn highfives gradstudentbot | 15:37 | |
| gradstudentbot | I'll be at the microscope. | 15:37 |
| fenn | you know if radar hadn't been bogged down with military secrecy bullshit and export controls, we'd all have passive microwave vision built into our cellphones | 15:39 |
| cluckj | lol | 15:40 |
| kanzure | "As nerves are conductors of a fluid, the properties of which are fimilar to that of electricity, tying them, it appeared to me, could not prevent its paffage through them. In confequence of this reafoning, I tied the nerves of feveral frogs, but not one of them afforded the phenomena I expected." | 15:40 |
| kanzure | yes.. "the properties of which are fimilar to that of electricity" | 15:40 |
| kanzure | *cough* | 15:40 |
| kanzure | "I at firft thought this derived from a difference in the conftitution of the animals; but as one day I obferved, that in the fame frog one leg was completely motionlefs, whilft the other was agitated by violent convulfions, I entirely gave up this opinion." | 15:41 |
| fenn | nerves don't really conduct electric current, it's a traveling wave of depolarization | 15:42 |
| gradstudentbot | Should I still be wearing gloves? | 15:42 |
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| kanzure | "If the ligature was at a very fmall diftance from the mufcles, an extremely minute portion of artificial electricity was fufficient to put into action the leg of the animal; but if the ligature remained in contact with the mufcles, to btain the fame phenomena a quantity was required, which proportioned to the other, was enormous." | 15:43 |
| kanzure | artificial electricity? | 15:43 |
| fenn | you heard the man | 15:44 |
| * fenn points to the "no philosophy" sign | 15:44 | |
| fenn | was he using leyden jars? | 15:45 |
| kanzure | at one point yes | 15:45 |
| kanzure | "The coats of the nerves, then, are bad conductors." | 15:46 |
| * fenn puts on his conductor's coat and hat and looks at his pocketwatch | 15:46 | |
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| FourFire | heh | 15:51 |
| HEx2 | cd | 15:51 |
| HEx2 | oops | 15:51 |
| kanzure | "google doesn't show page numbers | 15:51 |
| kanzure | "Section iii" well what the hell page is that | 15:52 |
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| fenn | "There is interest in reviving the CNC workshop event ... The Tech Shop in Allen park MI- a Detroit suburb, has offered to host the event. At this time it is strictly a discussion of the possibilities." | 16:00 |
| kanzure | "Previous to the difcovery of Galvani, it was afferted, that animals contained electricity. Mr. Nicholfon, as far as I know, was the firft who fet on the foot any experiments to afcertain the quantity a man was capable of containing. "If we fuppofe," fays he, "the bulk of a man to be only three folid feet, or 51.84 folid inches, the natural electricity of this mafs, will be equal to the charge of a battery of upwards of 15,000 fquare feet." | 16:01 |
| delinquentme | kanzure, is this statement about 'bothering' the cdc | 16:02 |
| delinquentme | is this some kind of love you keep for just me? | 16:02 |
| kanzure | it is about shocking a man with 15,000 sq ft of electricity | 16:02 |
| delinquentme | You don't say stupid shit like that to everyone right? | 16:02 |
| fenn | https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/help-teach-1000-kids-that-death-is-wrong ok aside from being a book this seems like a thing | 16:02 |
| kanzure | delinquentme: i highly recommend not spontaneously calling the cdc | 16:03 |
| delinquentme | Oh so that was supposed to be helpful advice | 16:04 |
| kanzure | yes | 16:04 |
| delinquentme | interesting | 16:04 |
| kanzure | whatever | 16:04 |
| kanzure | "a complete treatise of electricity" (1795) http://books.google.com/books?id=LV0UAAAAQAAJ&printsec=frontcover&dq=A+Complete+Treatise+Of+Electricity&hl=en&sa=X&ei=6UJtU4irOIq0yATd44CoAQ&ved=0CEYQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=A%20Complete%20Treatise%20Of%20Electricity&f=false | 16:05 |
| kanzure | apparently it was called "layden phial" before it was called "layden jar" | 16:06 |
| kanzure | ergm, leyden phial and leyden jar | 16:07 |
| kanzure | .ety leyden phial | 16:07 |
| yoleaux | Sorry, I couldn't find the etymology of that. | 16:07 |
| kanzure | http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?search=Leyden+phial | 16:07 |
| --- Log opened Fri May 09 14:58:00 2014 | ||
| -!- gnusha [~gnusha@131.252.130.248] has joined ##hplusroadmap | 14:58 | |
| -!- Topic for ##hplusroadmap: biohacking, nootropics, transhumanism, open hardware | sponsored by george church and the NRA, banned by the Federal Death Administration (4 times) | http://gnusha.org/logs http://diyhpl.us/wiki | 14:58 | |
| -!- Topic set by kanzure [~kanzure@131.252.130.248] [Sun Apr 27 17:38:20 2014] | 14:58 | |
| [Users ##hplusroadmap] | 14:58 | |
| [@_archels ] [ d3vz3r0 ] [ justanotheruser] [ sivoais ] | 14:58 | |
| [@heath ] [ dbolser ] [ juul ] [ smeaaagle ] | 14:58 | |
| [@ParahSailin ] [ delinquentme] [ kanzure ] [ strages__ ] | 14:58 | |
| [ Adifex ] [ devrandom ] [ kardan ] [ strangewarp] | 14:58 | |
| [ andytoshi ] [ dingo ] [ kyknos ] [ streety ] | 14:58 | |
| [ apex ] [ drewbot ] [ lichen ] [ superkuh ] | 14:58 | |
| [ AshleyWaffle_] [ echo[1] ] [ maaku ] [ ThomasEgi ] | 14:58 | |
| [ Auctus ] [ ElixirVitae ] [ nmz787_i ] [ Twey ] | 14:58 | |
| [ audy ] [ entelechy ] [ nsh ] [ Urchin ] | 14:58 | |
| [ augur ] [ ephialtes480] [ pasky ] [ Viper168 ] | 14:58 | |
| [ balrog ] [ FourFire ] [ phryk ] [ Vutral ] | 14:58 | |
| [ bkero ] [ gnusha ] [ QuantumG ] [ xmj ] | 14:58 | |
| [ blueskin ] [ Guest79571 ] [ realzies ] [ yoleaux ] | 14:58 | |
| [ brownies ] [ helleshin ] [ rk[1] ] [ yorick ] | 14:58 | |
| [ Burnin8 ] [ HEx1 ] [ ruphos ] [ Zhwazi ] | 14:58 | |
| [ catern ] [ ivan` ] [ sapiosexual ] | 14:58 | |
| [ cluckj ] [ jrayhawk ] [ saurik ] | 14:58 | |
| [ cpopell` ] [ juri_ ] [ sheena1 ] | 14:58 | |
| -!- Irssi: ##hplusroadmap: Total of 69 nicks [3 ops, 0 halfops, 0 voices, 66 normal] | 14:58 | |
| -!- Channel ##hplusroadmap created Thu Feb 25 23:40:30 2010 | 14:58 | |
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| kanzure | someone kicked the server in the gnu nads | 15:24 |
| fenn | it really gnurts | 15:26 |
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| fenn | when confusion reigns it pores over cats and dogs living together | 15:28 |
| kanzure | so was that frog book the book of experiments? | 15:33 |
| kanzure | frogtronics.. ribbeting. | 15:34 |
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| QuantumG | these biotech news sites seem like the ghettos of the Internet | 15:52 |
| kanzure | the entirety of biotech investing seems like a giant ghetto | 15:53 |
| kanzure | some "oral histories" http://www.ieeeghn.org/wiki/index.php/Category:Automation | 15:53 |
| QuantumG | http://www.genengnews.com/insight-and-intelligence/poly-his-tags-improve-protein-purification/77900121/ | 15:53 |
| QuantumG | random example | 15:53 |
| QuantumG | 20,500 followers on twitter.. that's not bad. | 15:56 |
| kanzure | a lot of it is just infotainment | 15:56 |
| QuantumG | yeah, looking at it from the community perspective.. not seeing much evidence of any. | 15:57 |
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| fenn | kanzure: maybe the reason there's no "c2.com for hardware" is that the lessons learned from programming apply equally well to hardware? | 16:06 |
| kanzure | "In 1849, while at Königsberg, Helmholtz measured the speed at which the signal is carried along a nerve fibre. At that time most people believed that nerve signals passed along nerves immeasurably fast.[6] He used a recently dissected sciatic nerve of a frog and the calf muscle to which it attached. He used a galvanometer as a sensitive timing device, attaching a mirror to the needle to reflect a light beam across the room to a scale which ... | 16:07 |
| kanzure | ... gave much greater sensitivity.[6] Helmholtz reported[7][8] transmissions speeds in the range of 24.6 - 38.4 meters per second.[6]" | 16:07 |
| kanzure | fenn: i doubt it, there are lots of differences | 16:07 |
| kanzure | fenn: and weird economies of scale that impact a lot of what you can do | 16:08 |
| fenn | scaling exists in programming too | 16:08 |
| kanzure | "Helmholtz showed that different combinations of resonator could mimic vowel sounds: Alexander Graham Bell in particular was interested in this but, not being able to read German, misconstrued Helmholtz' diagrams as meaning that Helmholtz had transmitted multiple frequencies by wire—which would allow multiplexing of telegraph signals—whereas, in reality, electrical power was used only to keep the resonators in motion. Bell failed to ... | 16:08 |
| kanzure | ... reproduce what he thought Helmholtz had done but later said that, had he been able to read German, he would not have gone on to invent the telephone on the harmonic telegraph principle.[10][11][12][13]" | 16:08 |
| kanzure | helmholtz seems like an alright guy | 16:09 |
| fenn | helmholtz for president! | 16:09 |
| fenn | the telephone seems so obvious now it's hard to imagine not being able to conceive how it works | 16:10 |
| fenn | i'm pretty sure with a fast enough telegraph you could transmit voice sounds | 16:11 |
| fenn | sort of like ascii art | 16:12 |
| fenn | wtf c2 "has been around since 1995"? | 16:14 |
| kanzure | it's old school | 16:15 |
| QuantumG | a sensible theory of electromagnetic fields was rejected for a generation. | 16:16 |
| fenn | http://c2.com/cgi/wiki?WikiIsNotWikipedia | 16:16 |
| QuantumG | it's a bit hard to conceive of a microphone when your theory of electromagnetism is newtonian | 16:17 |
| fenn | how did newtonian electromagnetism work? | 16:17 |
| QuantumG | point sources and action-at-a-distance.. just like gravity | 16:17 |
| fenn | uh. then how did wires work | 16:18 |
| QuantumG | they didn't | 16:18 |
| fenn | right | 16:18 |
| QuantumG | even today, you open a physics textbook and read about Coulumb's law. | 16:18 |
| fenn | .wik coulomb's law | 16:19 |
| QuantumG | look at this shit: https://www.google.com/search?q=Coulomb%27s+law&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ei=T2JtU-KfDcihkAXG2YGwCw&ved=0CAgQ_AUoAQ&biw=1280&bih=905 | 16:19 |
| yoleaux | "Coulomb's law, or Coulomb's inverse-square law, is a law of physics describing the electrostatic interaction between electrically charged particles. The law was first published in 1785 by French physicist Charles Augustin de Coulomb and was essential to the development of the theory of electromagnetism." — http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coulomb%27s_law | 16:19 |
| QuantumG | it's just like the Bohr model of the hydrogen atom.. totally wrong but they keep teaching it because for some reason it's seen as a virtue to pollute fresh minds with bad visualizations | 16:20 |
| fenn | can you link to an image instead | 16:20 |
| QuantumG | http://scienceres-edcp-educ.sites.olt.ubc.ca/files/2012/07/sec_phys_electrostatics_coulombLaw-940x705.jpg | 16:21 |
| fenn | uh, that's not valid? | 16:21 |
| QuantumG | of course not.. the energy isn't in the charges.. there's no action at a distance.. the energy is in the field.. the force is exchanged by photons | 16:22 |
| fenn | take two spheres, one positively charged and one negatively charged, they'll have a force of 1/r^2 between them | 16:22 |
| QuantumG | if the photons can move between them, sure. Stick a sheet of zinc between them and the force goes away. Stupid Coulumb's model doesn't explain that. | 16:23 |
| fenn | what color are these photons | 16:24 |
| fenn | a zero frequency wave is as silly a theory as action at a distance | 16:25 |
| QuantumG | if you're taught point sources and action-at-a-distance first, you'll always think about it like that and the zinc sheet experiment will be the exception that makes you switch models and start thinking about fields | 16:25 |
| fenn | point sources are way easier to calculate by hand than numerical field simulations | 16:25 |
| fenn | that's probably why they teach it that way | 16:26 |
| QuantumG | yawn, I just remembered it's pointless talking to you. | 16:26 |
| fenn | i don't think it's too much to ask about the supposed photons flying around everywhere that i can't see | 16:26 |
| QuantumG | you've heard of radio, right? | 16:27 |
| fenn | yes | 16:27 |
| fenn | if you move a charged sphere up and down in a sinusoudal pattern, you'll get a radio wave, right? | 16:28 |
| fenn | so what's the wavelength of a stationary charge | 16:30 |
| fenn | Some Frequently Asked Questions About Virtual Particles 2. How can they be responsible for attractive forces? | 16:31 |
| fenn | ok he totally lost me | 16:32 |
| fenn | if i have two radio antennas 90 degrees out of phase, their charges will be opposite; do they attract each other? | 16:37 |
| fenn | actually 180 degrees out of phase | 16:39 |
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| fenn | did i do something wrong? | 16:44 |
| kanzure | have you tried ##electronics | 16:45 |
| fenn | i was more interested in what QuantumG was trying to say, but apparently i'm pointless (for reasons that are unknown to me) | 16:48 |
| kanzure | because you didn't like spacex or bitcoin when he brought it up | 16:51 |
| maaku | fenn: opposite charges attract | 16:52 |
| fenn | i just thought spacex wasn't that interesting (more rockets) | 16:52 |
| maaku | nothing to do with waves here | 16:52 |
| kanzure | maaku: do you also subscribe to virtual photons? | 16:52 |
| fenn | maaku did you actually read further back than 5 lines? | 16:53 |
| maaku | ? | 16:53 |
| fenn | (also i think the answer is yes, the radio antennas attract) | 16:54 |
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| maaku | kanzure: it's a meaningless question. do you believe in the number 3? | 16:54 |
| kanzure | virtual photons are supposedly the explanation for magnetic and electric fields | 16:54 |
| maaku | no, they are a conceptual model that helps explain electomagnatism | 16:55 |
| maaku | i believe in electomagnatism, no matter what physically true model you use to explain it | 16:55 |
| kanzure | so virtual photons are not physically true..? | 16:56 |
| maaku | gah, now you'll argue over what physically true means | 16:56 |
| kanzure | no | 16:56 |
| fenn | maaku: is the casimir effect predicted in your electromagnetism? | 16:56 |
| maaku | fenn: yes? | 16:56 |
| fenn | would it have been predicted if you didn't know about it beforehand? | 16:57 |
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| maaku | based on what we know of fundamental physics, yes | 16:57 |
| fenn | why? | 16:57 |
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| fenn | it's perfectly acceptable to come up with an explanation that doesn't involve virtual photons | 17:01 |
| kanzure | fenn: you'll enjoy (snark) this part of the article, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Virtual_particle#Manifestations | 17:03 |
| fenn | i really wish people would just stop talking about particles | 17:04 |
| fenn | there are quantized wavelets, that's it | 17:04 |
| maaku | fenn: there's nothing wrong with a multi-model understanding of the universe | 17:05 |
| maaku | i guess we should stop talking about atoms, cause they don't exist | 17:06 |
| fenn | okay, maybe i should have said "talking about particles is confusing because things act like waves" | 17:06 |
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| fenn | .wik atom laser | 17:08 |
| yoleaux | "An atom laser is a coherent state of propagating atoms. They are created out of a Bose–Einstein condensate of atoms that are output coupled using various techniques." — http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atom_laser | 17:08 |
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| kanzure | "Macroscopic violation of special relativity" http://arxiv.org/pdf/0708.0681.pdf | 17:11 |
| fenn | wtf why does arxiv hate wget | 17:13 |
| kanzure | --user-agent="not w-get" | 17:13 |
| kanzure | http://arxiv.org/abs/1206.1237 "Virtual Particle Interpretation of Quantum Mechanics - a non-dualistic model of QM with a natural probability interpretation" | 17:16 |
| kanzure | "An interpretation of non-relativistic quantum mechanics is presented in the spirit of Erwin Madelung's hydrodynamic formulation of QM and Louis de Broglie's and David Bohm's pilot wave models. The aims of the approach are as follows: 1) to have a clear ontology for QM, 2) to describe QM in a causal way, 3) to get rid of the wave-particle dualism in pilot wave theories, 4) to provide a theoretical framework for describing creation and ... | 17:16 |
| fenn | "virtual particles were introduced for describing the interaction between an electron and positron" | 17:16 |
| kanzure | ... annihilation of particles, and 5) to provide a possible connection between particle QM and virtual particles in QFT. These goals are achieved, if the wave function is replaced by a fluid of so called virtual particles. It is also assumed that in this fluid of virtual particles exist a few real particles and that only these real particles can be directly observed. This has relevance for the measurement problem in QM and it is found that ... | 17:16 |
| kanzure | ... quantum probabilities arise in a very natural way from the structure of the theory. The model presented here is very similar to a recent computational model of quantum physics and recent Bohmian models of QFT." | 17:16 |
| kanzure | hrmph | 17:16 |
| fenn | what is a pilot wave? | 17:17 |
| kanzure | .wik pilot wave | 17:17 |
| yoleaux | "In theoretical physics, the pilot wave theory was the first known example of a hidden variable theory, presented by Louis de Broglie in 1927." — http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pilot_wave | 17:17 |
| fenn | Yves Couder and co-workers recently discovered a macroscopic pilot wave system in the form of walking droplets. This system exhibits behaviour of a pilot wave, heretofore considered to be reserved to microscopic phenomena. | 17:18 |
| fenn | ok that makes sense | 17:19 |
| fenn | a walking droplet is just a bouncing sphere of water on top of a pool of water | 17:19 |
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| fenn | oh here we go again with the pig slime | 17:23 |
| kanzure | hm that virtual particle fluid paper gives some nods to lee smolin | 17:27 |
| fenn | "evanescent modes [virtual photons in this paper] have a purely imaginary wave number" so that answers that | 17:30 |
| fenn | that "special relativity violation" paper is interesting in that it straightforwardly demonstrates "faster than light travel" | 17:32 |
| fenn | "the zero phase shift of spreading evanescent modes implies that barriers are crossed in zero time" | 17:33 |
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| fenn | why isn't this front page news | 17:35 |
| fenn | SCIENTISTS TRAVEL FASTER THAN LIGHT!!! OMG | 17:35 |
| kanzure | nsh: poke | 17:36 |
| kanzure | if something like "openbazaar" gets any amount of traction, there might be a vacuum effect where anyone selling any sort of industrial equipment will end up "on top" of the market | 17:41 |
| kanzure | oh man, it's friday again? | 17:41 |
| fenn | the internet causes time dilation | 17:44 |
| fenn | why would you sell on openbazaar vs just ebay or amazon | 17:45 |
| kanzure | ebay and amazon will shut you down if the fda looks at you sternly | 17:45 |
| fenn | hm okay | 17:46 |
| fenn | can't they just raid your factory | 17:46 |
| kanzure | "nobody should be allowed to sell a $100 atomic force microscope, therefore we will confiscate your bank accounts and uh, steal your drugs because they are drugs" | 17:46 |
| kanzure | well.... yes. | 17:46 |
| kanzure | unless it's not in the united states | 17:46 |
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| fenn | "that is a very interesting food processor you have, mister ;\'DROP DATABASE *" | 17:48 |
| fenn | ultrasonic shaving kit | 17:49 |
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| fenn | ultrasonic imaging potpourri dispenser | 17:49 |
| fenn | how do they know anything is anything | 17:50 |
| fenn | "product description: scientific industrial crap, too complicated for you to worry about" | 17:50 |
| FourFire | hehe | 17:53 |
| fenn | .title http://web.archive.org/web/20070103092720/http://www.robotwisdom.com/ai/universals.html | 17:56 |
| yoleaux | Brown's human universals | 17:56 |
| fenn | this is a pretty long list | 17:56 |
| fenn | "tools to make tools" is a human universal? | 17:57 |
| fenn | i thought i was special | 17:57 |
| cluckj | kanzure, phial --> vial | 17:59 |
| kanzure | *distilled* scientific industrial crap | 18:00 |
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| kanzure | plasmonically modulated scientific industrial goop | 18:01 |
| cluckj | mmm goop | 18:01 |
| kanzure | could we claim it's functional art | 18:01 |
| fenn | you can claim it's anything you want | 18:02 |
| kanzure | i mean would it work | 18:02 |
| fenn | try it and find out | 18:02 |
| fenn | when the customs department calls you have to act very snooty and condescending | 18:03 |
| fenn | or they won't believe you're a "real" artist | 18:03 |
| kanzure | i'm not sure they even call in the first place? | 18:03 |
| fenn | in soviet russia... | 18:04 |
| kanzure | at this point i can't even remember what comprehensve reform of the fda is supposed to look like | 18:05 |
| dingo | free aaron schwartz! | 18:08 |
| dingo | oh wait... | 18:08 |
| * dingo slinks back to his idle state | 18:08 | |
| fenn | they could relax the requirement that drugs are for treatment of a particular disease (as defined by the american medical association?) | 18:09 |
| fenn | separating the requirements of efficacy and safety would be a huge deal | 18:09 |
| fenn | relaxing the standards of effiacy would reduce the cost of trials to the point where small businesses/startups actually have a chance | 18:10 |
| fenn | guidelines to reverse and prevent general corruption and collusion with pharmaceutical companies | 18:11 |
| fenn | like, why is tylenol not banned? | 18:12 |
| fenn | or at least made more difficult to get, a prescription or something | 18:12 |
| fenn | .g deaths due to tylenol | 18:12 |
| yoleaux | http://www.propublica.org/article/tylenol-mcneil-fda-behind-the-numbers | 18:12 |
| FourFire | kanzure, gwern is asking about the extropy archives | 18:13 |
| fenn | 980 deaths in a year to drugs containing acetaminophen. | 18:13 |
| fenn | that's more than all nuclear accidents ever | 18:14 |
| cluckj | *accidents* | 18:15 |
| fenn | hiroshima and nagasaki were intentional | 18:15 |
| cluckj | how many of those 980 deaths a year are overdoses? | 18:16 |
| fenn | all of them? | 18:16 |
| fenn | what do you mean | 18:17 |
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| cluckj | I mean accidental overdoses | 18:18 |
| fenn | more than half | 18:18 |
| cluckj | dayum | 18:19 |
| fenn | i think everything should be tested for safety, with the amount of testing proportional to the number of users, regardless whether it's intended for "medical" or "nutritional supplement" or "cosmetic" use | 18:22 |
| fenn | and anyone should be able to sell anything, provided the relevant safety warnings are conveyed | 18:22 |
| delinquentme | Whats the non-binding contract for intended purchases called? | 18:24 |
| fenn | a non-binding contract is an oxymoron | 18:25 |
| fenn | "letter of intent"? | 18:25 |
| fenn | http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Letter_of_intent | 18:26 |
| fenn | or memorandum of understanding | 18:27 |
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| kanzure | "Another favorite pastime [of Seymour Cray] was digging a tunnel under his home; he attributed the secret of his success to "visits by elves" while he worked in the tunnel: "While I'm digging in the tunnel, the elves will often come to me with solutions to my problem."" | 19:18 |
| fenn | better than eating lead paint | 19:27 |
| kanzure | .wik anatoli bugorski | 19:27 |
| yoleaux | "Anatoli Petrovich Bugorski (Russian: Анатолий Бугорский; 1942 – ) is a Russian scientist who was involved in an accident with a particle accelerator in 1978." — http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anatoli_Bugorski | 19:27 |
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| kanzure | "Patient shows no signs of proton-based superpowers." | 19:29 |
| fenn | are there special cad programs for plumbing? like is there a split between schematic/layout like with electronics? | 19:31 |
| kanzure | i think they call that large-scale hydraulics | 19:32 |
| kanzure | http://us.123rf.com/450wm/munlika/munlika1211/munlika121100007/16150733-structure-of-oil-and-chemical-factory-in-day-time.jpg | 19:33 |
| fenn | i don't see anything about large scale hydraulics except civil engineering stuff (rivers and geology) | 19:34 |
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| kanzure | hm | 19:37 |
| kanzure | well, you certainly don't call a plumber when you need to cad out your 1000 km^2 oil refinery | 19:38 |
| fenn | wow this is like exactly what i want to do http://lims.mae.cornell.edu/research/hydraulics.cfm | 19:38 |
| kanzure | .title | 19:40 |
| yoleaux | School of Mechanical & Aerospace Engineering | 19:40 |
| kanzure | http://lims.mae.cornell.edu/media/hydraulics_videos.cfm | 19:40 |
| kanzure | .title https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3MbR6DhkV_Y | 19:40 |
| yoleaux | McKibben Hex | 19:40 |
| kanzure | .title https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l6mNK5pqZ4Y | 19:41 |
| yoleaux | Meso-Scale Hydraulic Quadraped Robot | 19:41 |
| kanzure | "piezoelectric actuated quadraped" https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VwntoH2vjbo | 19:43 |
| fenn | the piezo is not as interesting | 19:45 |
| fenn | i came up with the water hydraulic mckibben robot idea like 6 years ago and never actually did it | 19:46 |
| fenn | " Bugorski was taken to a clinic in Moscow where the doctors could observe his expected demise. However, Bugorski survived and even completed his Ph.D." always good to keep your priorities straight | 19:55 |
| fenn | he is still alive | 19:56 |
| fenn | its a little tasteless to put this on mentalfloss.com | 20:00 |
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| fenn | "The exchange of talent for the good life made for an extraordinarily productive relationship between the state and the scientists. The science towns helped ensure the Soviet Union's standing as a military and intellectual superpower, and the state paid them back by ensuring their continued comfort. .. In 1990 science funding suddenly dropped about 90 percent. Unlike military-factory towns, which | 20:12 |
| fenn | also lost their funding overnight, the science towns had no industry to convert to civilian production. Unlike their colleagues living in other cities, the scientists in science towns could not switch to careers in finance or the service industries: most of them lived hours away from anything that wasn't a research institute, and they had no money to move. George Soros's organization, gave out | 20:12 |
| fenn | small grants to Russian exact scientists. Now most of that funding has dried up. Many find ways to procure cheaper produce, even to live off the land with tiny plots they stake out outside the towns.the buildings are not crumbling and the residents are not deserting. In fact, the "brain drain" that has been the bugbear of post-Soviet science and technology, whose best and brightest are lured to | 20:12 |
| fenn | the West, has barely affected the science towns. most young people would like to stay in the towns and in the sciences. Protvino, population 40,000, is one of the youngest science towns. When the first scientists moved here in the late 1960s and '70s, their kids kept dragging home rusty helmets and unused ammo ribbons they'd found while digging around the old trenches. Construction workers still | 20:12 |
| fenn | find human remains. | 20:12 |
| fenn | Zone A for the scientific institutes (all nine of them), Zone B for greenery, and Zone C for living (in any one of three types of nine-story concrete-block buildings). Nearly 30 years after the town was built, its population still only about 20,000, the experiment in stasis can be deemed successful. Researchers at the Institute of Soil and Photosynthesis have organized the School of Practical | 20:14 |
| fenn | Fruit and Vegetable Gardening. with instruction on tree-wrapping and crown-trimming, then eventually graduate to beekeeping. "Every plot should have at least two or three beehives," he says emphatically. "That's good for pollination and teaching your children, both." | 20:14 |
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| fenn | Kids elsewhere may have lived for legends of their football or fishing exploits, but all our adventures focused on the Synchrophasotron. Zarubin manages to compare it to a castle, a monastery, and an abbey. The point is, the Synchrophasotron was built to stand for centuries - not unlike the Protvino tunnel except, of course, that it was actually completed. local researchers, who'd been counting | 20:22 |
| fenn | on conducting future experiments in Protvino, came up with the brilliant idea of putting a new accelerator right where the old one was. they put the Nuclotron, a superconducting accelerator of nuclei and heavy ions, just below the Synchrophasotron. "Guys need their garages. Russian monasteries were always the repositories not only of spirituality, but also of skills. And technical culture, | 20:22 |
| fenn | engineering culture, the belief in scientific values - all this has almost a religious quality. In times of trouble Russia often lost its churches, but never its monasteries." | 20:22 |
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| fenn | this all sounds great except for the forced labor camps and unmarked graves | 20:24 |
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| fenn | .d dubnium | 20:26 |
| yoleaux | dubnium (/ˈdʌbnɪəm/): n. The chemical element of atomic number 105, a very unstable element made by high-energy atomic collisions — http://is.gd/1Z8bbC | 20:26 |
| kanzure | dubiousnum | 20:27 |
| kanzure | so do those science towns have internet | 20:28 |
| fenn | http://www.protvino.ru | 20:28 |
| fenn | http://www.dubna.ru | 20:29 |
| kanzure | uhh... "Дорогие ветераны Великой Отечественной войны, уважаемые жители наукограда Протвино! Примите самые сердечные и теплые поздравления с великим и священным для всех нас праздником – 69-ой годовщиной Победы в Великой Отечественной войне! ... | 20:29 |
| kanzure | ... Воистину – это великая дата, имеющая огромное значение не только для нашего народа, но и для всего мира, спасенного от фашистской чумы." | 20:30 |
| kanzure | i can't really read this but i'm 100% certain this is propaganda bullshit | 20:30 |
| fenn | lol | 20:30 |
| fenn | "i see an exclamation point!" | 20:30 |
| kanzure | well it's not like i'm completely fluent | 20:30 |
| fenn | do you know any russian? | 20:31 |
| fenn | i can just about pronounce half of the letters | 20:31 |
| kanzure | he aосtatoho | 20:31 |
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| fenn | "Dear World War II veterans, dear citizens Protvino Science City! Please accept my sincere and warm congratulations on the great and sacred holiday for all of us - 69th Anniversary of Victory in the Great Patriotic War! ... | 20:36 |
| fenn | ... Truly - it's a great date, which has great importance not only for our people, but also for the world, saved from the Nazi plague. " | 20:36 |
| kanzure | sacred? | 20:36 |
| fenn | or special? but it seems correlated with religion | 20:37 |
| fenn | yes google, this page with cyrillic characters from .ru is "haitian creole" | 20:40 |
| kanzure | .ety Отечественной | 20:41 |
| yoleaux | Sorry, I couldn't find the etymology of that. | 20:41 |
| kanzure | useless | 20:41 |
| fenn | who knew that may 8 was victory day | 20:42 |
| kanzure | science victory dayt | 20:42 |
| fenn | i wonder what dubna was named after | 20:44 |
| fenn | oh, the dubna river | 20:44 |
| fenn | There are several museums in Dubna, including: Museum of Locks | 20:47 |
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| kanzure | i wonder if russian libraries were hijacked or not | 20:54 |
| kanzure | maybe they have an aversion to "capitalist pig publishers" | 20:54 |
| fenn | it's probably just nobody has bothered to translate everything | 20:55 |
| kanzure | "Dear Bryan Bishop, Are you still manually soldering one wire at a time to your ultrasonic arrays? I heard about "Z-Axis tape" for the first time this week. Does this video make it sound like horrifically complex stuff that requires years of training to use "properly", or more like something you can slap on and use without thinking too hard?" https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K3SPijvXtew#t=64 via ... | 20:57 |
| kanzure | ... http://electronics.stackexchange.com/questions/91970/easiest-way-to-solder-connections-to-all-the-legs-on-a-surface-mount-chip/92594#92594 | 20:57 |
| fenn | yeah i saw the z-axis tape yesterday | 20:58 |
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| kanzure | "This Z-Axis Conductive Tape is an easy-to-use, pressure sensitive double-sided tape designed for connecting, bonding and grounding flex circuits and PCBs. This conductive tape can connect most medium pitch flexible circuits through the Z-axis with other flexible circuits, PCB or LCD screens by simply applying pressure with your finger!" | 21:00 |
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| kanzure | how is that supposed to help? you still have to cut the tape up and wire it elsewhere | 21:01 |
| fenn | you can make a pcb and stick the thing to your tape and the pcb to the tape and then you're done | 21:02 |
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| fenn | for things that can't be soldered | 21:02 |
| fenn | old style lcd "screens" for example | 21:03 |
| fenn | a lot of sparkfun products look really easy to reverse engineer and make yourself | 21:03 |
| kanzure | how are you done? isn't the whole piece of tape conductive.. | 21:04 |
| kanzure | i am trying to understand this in the context of the "Dear Bryan" email | 21:04 |
| fenn | omg multimeter abuse! | 21:04 |
| fenn | especially on a website aimed at electronics nerds, sheesh | 21:05 |
| fenn | https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elastomeric_connector | 21:06 |
| fenn | i wonder what role they play in a radar system | 21:06 |
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| fenn | i wonder why electroluminescent LCD backlights aren't more common | 21:12 |
| fenn | WANT http://lumineq.com/en/products/tfel | 21:13 |
| fenn | that is like straight out of star trek http://lumineq.com/sites/default/files/styles/product_image/public/product/fields/field_images/7_7879.jpg | 21:14 |
| kanzure | no pricing information | 21:15 |
| fenn | it doesn't seem especially difficult to make either | 21:17 |
| fenn | "thin film yellow-emitting manganese-doped zinc sulfide material" | 21:17 |
| fenn | and probably an indium tin oxide front electrode | 21:17 |
| fenn | dditionally, other transparent conducting materials, such as carbon nanotube coatings or PEDOT can be used as the front electrode. | 21:18 |
| fenn | Poly(3,4-ethylenedioxythiophene) or PEDOT | 21:18 |
| fenn | it should be flexible if deposited on a polymer film backing (and thus nearly indestructible in normal use) | 21:19 |
| fenn | Integral Contrast Enhancement delivers up to 1000:1 contrast ratio for daylight readability. | 21:21 |
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| fenn | it would be cool to figure out how to screen print segmented displays | 21:22 |
| fenn | or some other rapid prototyping printing method | 21:22 |
| fenn | like inkjet | 21:22 |
| fenn | is inkjetted RGB flexible electroluminescent display too much to ask? | 21:23 |
| kanzure | almost by definition | 21:26 |
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| fenn | i don't get it, why did humanity ever develop CRT displays? | 21:28 |
| kanzure | radar? | 21:29 |
| fenn | i guess nobody was thinking about parallelism at the time | 21:30 |
| jrayhawk | so i can have the raddest office in the world | 21:31 |
| jrayhawk | raddest in more senses than one! | 21:31 |
| fenn | rad-o-tronic | 21:31 |
| fenn | for N pixels how many switches/relays/transistors are needed to turn them on individually? | 21:32 |
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| fenn | a latching register isn't that hard to make | 21:34 |
| fenn | it's pretty much required for anything involving computers anyway | 21:34 |
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| fenn | roll to roll printing would probably make sense for mass producing displays | 21:48 |
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| fenn | heh lumineq's pdf color scheme is exactly the same as my CSS override | 22:12 |
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| fenn | .title https://www.youtube.com/embed/7r3l-sRMSfA | 22:28 |
| yoleaux | Second version of Raspberry Pi with EL320.240.36 | 22:28 |
| fenn | could use a better dithering algorithm but not bad | 22:28 |
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| fenn | the circuitry used to drive an electroluminescent display is somewhat similar to driving an array of PZT transducers | 23:26 |
| fenn | lots of little high voltage AC wires | 23:26 |
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| --- Log closed Sat May 10 00:00:00 2014 | ||
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