| --- Log opened Mon May 12 00:00:02 2014 | ||
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| kanzure | or not | 04:19 |
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| kanzure | so many birds. why can't they be quiet? | 04:35 |
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| superkuh | http://www.nature.com/neuro/journal/vaop/ncurrent/abs/nn.3719.html - Reliable induction of lucid dreams through (transcranial?) DC stimulation.Not only is this functionally cool, but it adds more support for the idea that 40 Hz thalamocortical oscillations are necessary (but maybe not sufficient) for consciousness. | 05:32 |
| superkuh | paperbot: http://www.nature.com/neuro/journal/vaop/ncurrent/abs/nn.3719.html | 05:32 |
| superkuh | Nevermind. LibGen had it. | 05:39 |
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| FourFire | fenn I totally agree about energy use, burning oil is a massive waste of extremely useful chemical material: we should be running much more nuclear power | 06:41 |
| FourFire | fenn, | 06:43 |
| FourFire | "that feature size does not seem unreasonable for homebrew non-billion-dollar fabs" were you two discussing DIY processor fabrication later than that? | 06:43 |
| andytoshi | superkuh: pretty neat, i wonder how easy that is to set up at home | 06:46 |
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| kanzure | fenn: here's a thought, you could always go troll the librarians in #code4lib and tell them how much they failed you | 09:02 |
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| kanzure | http://chronicle.com/blogs/wiredcampus/hazards-of-the-cloud-data-storage-services-crash-sets-back-researchers/52571 | 09:03 |
| kanzure | superkuh: i know someone who desperately wants the opposite function (turning off lucid dreaming) | 09:04 |
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| eudoxia | http://web.archive.org/web/19990501121022/http://www.carol.com/mass.shtml | 09:09 |
| eudoxia | closed-source software (single tear), some pdb's and gifs from like a million years ago | 09:09 |
| kanzure | .title | 09:09 |
| yoleaux | Molecular Assembly Sequence Software | 09:09 |
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| kanzure | https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7731624 "When I've taken this thought to its extreme, Chuck Moore's ideology around Forth makes total sense: If a problem is only going to be solved in a complex, Byzantine fashion, it's the wrong problem. Walk away from it. Solve a different one. Quit the job. Reconsider your lifestyle. And most people aren't going to be able to consider it seriously on that level. The monstrous systems are there because ... | 09:47 |
| kanzure | ... everyone involved has collectively agreed that whatever is justifying the problem is so important that it's OK to let the resulting system grow monster-sized and swallow everyone up. On that basis the only thing anyone can hope for is a painkiller to make the monster a little less soul-crushing." | 09:47 |
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| kanzure | nothing here is redeeming for anders http://www.reddit.com/r/science/comments/25cnbr/science_ama_series_we_are_researchers_at_the/?sort=top | 11:46 |
| kanzure | what a disappointment | 11:46 |
| delinquentme | paperbot no here =[ | 11:55 |
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| fenn | yay image maps https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Template:Eye_anatomy | 12:55 |
| kanzure | "As for our funding, right now my main funding is actually an industry collaboration with an insurance company (Amlin)!" argh wtf | 12:56 |
| kanzure | how about the existential risk of anders wasting his time | 12:59 |
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| fenn | so has chuck moore etched his own processors by hand yet | 13:32 |
| fenn | with a sharp knife on a germanium plate | 13:32 |
| fenn | jk i love chuck moore's approach | 13:32 |
| kanzure | am i supposed to know him? | 13:34 |
| fenn | "colorForth was originally developed as the scripting language for Moore's own homebrew VLSI CAD program OKAD" | 13:37 |
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| fenn | http://www.greenarraychips.com/ i'm not sure how these specs compare to modern things like parallella, but it sounds pretty impressive for one guy's work | 13:39 |
| fenn | .wik parallella | 13:39 |
| yoleaux | "Adapteva is a fabless semiconductor company focusing on low power multi-core microprocessor design. The company was the first company to announce a design with 1000 general-purpose microprocessors on a single chip." — http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adapteva | 13:39 |
| fenn | it is more of a microcontroller mindset than a "miniature supercomputer" | 13:41 |
| ParahSailin | i hope i get mine | 13:46 |
| ParahSailin | it was sent to an old address | 13:47 |
| fenn | forth is very efficient with not just memory and cpu usage, but also screen space of code and lets you mess with the guts of any part of the OS or language; the ability to redefine anything reminds me of lisp | 13:47 |
| fenn | i haven't tried to learn it | 13:48 |
| fenn | it's stack based like postscript | 13:48 |
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| kanzure | .g okad cad vlsi | 13:52 |
| yoleaux | http://www.ultratechnology.com/okad2.htm | 13:52 |
| kanzure | does this just do layout? | 13:52 |
| fenn | there was some criticism that "okad could only be used to design chuck moore's tiny forth chips" | 13:52 |
| fenn | not a "real" (read bloat) computer | 13:52 |
| fenn | "we wrote the 4os operating system and made various all Forth chip and all Forth software web browser and email appliances. After developing products that everyone liked iTV's Board of Directors decided that they didn't want to sell anything and the company was shut down." | 13:56 |
| fenn | http://web.archive.org/web/19990423061233/http://www.itvc.com/Technology/i21.html | 13:57 |
| fenn | "1996 Draper Fisher Jurvetson investment announced." huh | 13:59 |
| fenn | holy crap "A complete Internet system (OS, live Forth system, network stack, flash file system, GIF and JPEG decoder, fonts, network support applications, email and browser customer applications) requires less than 1/2 megabyte of program memory. With boot compression (comes standard, takes about 1 second) that system fits in a 128Kbyte ROM." | 14:01 |
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| Naish411 | paperbot: http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v509/n7499/full/509166a.html | 14:04 |
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| fenn | "Forth is a semantic language where the syntax is just words with spaces between them and the meaning is the defintion of the words. The words are like LEGO blocks, they snap together or pull apart to facilitate experimentation." | 14:12 |
| QuantumG | I hate those non-semantic languages | 14:20 |
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| fenn | the Novix NC4000 chip had only 4000 gates and ran 40MIPS (forth instructions) at 8 MHz | 14:20 |
| fenn | QuantumG: there is no syntax, i cut and pasted because the author is a bit long-winded | 14:20 |
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| kanzure | "okad could only be used to design chuck moore's tiny forth chips" is hilarious riticism | 14:37 |
| kanzure | *criticism | 14:37 |
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| kanzure | fenn: what was his justification for being arbitrator of all things in his stack? it's a nice idea, just not sure how he convinced anyone to let him do that | 14:39 |
| kanzure | or maybe just gave everyone the finger | 14:39 |
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| fenn | a $100 web browsing computer built into a mouse was pretty impressive for 1996 | 14:40 |
| fenn | you hooked it up to a tv's video in (and a modem, presumably) | 14:40 |
| kanzure | yes but this means he invented webtv | 14:41 |
| kanzure | and therefore is the spawn of satan | 14:41 |
| fenn | kanzure: i'm not sure what the problem is with letting your programmer define his environment? it's basically like scheme, where you bootstrap yourself from a minimal syntax (in the case of forth, a minimal set of words) | 14:41 |
| fenn | it is possible to paint yourself into a corner | 14:42 |
| kanzure | well, most people aren't inclined to have a single person design the chip and the stack and the web browser | 14:42 |
| kanzure | because they believe in "team work" | 14:42 |
| fenn | of course | 14:42 |
| kanzure | and patents | 14:42 |
| fenn | see java, c++, total quality management, etc | 14:42 |
| fenn | actually i have no idea what tqm is, but it sounds like butt-hurt | 14:43 |
| kanzure | oh, he created forth. well maybe that's enough sayso. | 14:43 |
| fenn | yes and then he "created" a zillion other *-forths | 14:43 |
| fenn | i'm of the persuasion that humanity discovered math, jmc discovered lisp, moore discovered forth | 14:44 |
| kanzure | and he founded the company. okay, so that's why. | 14:44 |
| fenn | i dont know what a company has to do with it? | 14:44 |
| kanzure | i was wondering why the company had let him design the chip, the cad to design the chip, and the rest of the software stack, and also give him time to implement it | 14:45 |
| kanzure | but it's the other way around; he created the company, so he got to decide what he wanted to do | 14:45 |
| fenn | because, I AM THE LAW!!! | 14:45 |
| kanzure | are there asic fabs that do previous-previous-previous generation fabrication? | 14:46 |
| kanzure | or are you beholden to whatever the latest industrial byproduct is | 14:46 |
| QuantumG | tqm = actually writing down what you're doing, you'd love it. | 14:46 |
| kanzure | like all fads, i'm sure there's a definition that sounds good, and then nobody that follows it | 14:46 |
| QuantumG | people who dislike TQM are almost always of the persuasion that thinks keeping how they do their job secret is the best way to maintain their job. | 14:47 |
| fenn | aside from being "over 9000" what is ISO 9001? | 14:48 |
| fenn | my eyes just glaze over whenever i read anything about it | 14:48 |
| kanzure | .wik iso 9001 | 14:48 |
| yoleaux | "ISO 9000 is a series of standards, developed and published by the International Organization for Standardization (ISO), that define, establish, and maintain an effective quality assurance system for manufacturing and service industries. The standards are available through national standards bodies." — http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ISO_9001 | 14:48 |
| kanzure | in other words, documentation that you don't have | 14:49 |
| fenn | it's based on TQM | 14:49 |
| QuantumG | yeah.. the short version is: document how you make your product, what everyone's job is, how long they take, who was working what days, etc, and if there's a defect found, do root cause analysis. | 14:50 |
| kanzure | do you have access to iso docs? | 14:50 |
| fenn | does this mean i can access their "document how they make their product" or is it just for internal use? | 14:51 |
| QuantumG | I don't think so, I could check.. but I read ISO 9001 and some others many years ago. | 14:51 |
| QuantumG | fenn: internal use.. although I imagine it'd come out in a court case :) | 14:51 |
| fenn | so is coca cola ISO 9001 compliant? | 14:52 |
| QuantumG | almost certainly | 14:52 |
| fenn | even though their recipe is secret | 14:52 |
| kanzure | i think all enterprises go for iso 9001 compliance at this point | 14:52 |
| QuantumG | heh, you actually think Coke's recipe is secret? | 14:53 |
| QuantumG | do you think the KFC recipe is locked in vault and the people who know it aren't allowed to fly together too? | 14:53 |
| fenn | so i've been led to believe | 14:53 |
| fenn | but you're saying there's actually some official binder that the ISO 9001 auditor can read? | 14:54 |
| QuantumG | Coca Cola's recipe is: sell sugared water by telling people it's freedom. | 14:55 |
| fenn | no argument there | 14:55 |
| fenn | i read some "hacker soda" that had a long list of essential oils like lime oil and clove oil and orange oil | 14:56 |
| xmj | 'hacker soda' sounds like club mate | 14:57 |
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| fenn | https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/OpenCola_(drink) | 14:57 |
| fenn | "2.36 kg plain granulated white table sugar, 2.28 L water" that's more sugar than water! | 14:58 |
| fenn | oh that's the concentrate | 14:59 |
| QuantumG | Pepsi started marketing a caffeinated Mountain Dew in Australia (and Canada) around the same time I stopped drinking sugared drinks. Whatever bonehead in marketing convinced them to go caffeine free outside the US has probably cost them millions. | 14:59 |
| fenn | uh, what's the point if it has no caffeine | 15:00 |
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| fenn | "look, it's yellow and tastes like crap!" | 15:00 |
| QuantumG | I know right.. if I want a caffeine free soda I'll drink Sprite Zero (with vodka) | 15:01 |
| fenn | grape juice and seltzer | 15:02 |
| fenn | seems like a balanced electrolyte solution with the correct amount of sugar would not be a bad idea | 15:03 |
| fenn | glucose that is | 15:03 |
| fenn | just don't water your plants with it | 15:03 |
| fenn | here's to hoping that ubuntu sticks to making free software distributions https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ubuntu_Cola | 15:06 |
| QuantumG | 1. someone sends you an email saying they've completed some work you need to do a task 2. you email them and tell them that they seem to have screwed something up 3. they fix it, but don't reply to your email to tell you 4. you murder them with an axe. Would any court convict? | 15:07 |
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| fenn | "El Ché-Cola Company, which donates 50% of its net profits to NGOs that fight against world hunger." named after Che Guevara | 15:08 |
| fenn | "Mecca-Cola is marketed as an alternative to U.S. brands such as Coca-Cola and Pepsi-Cola to "pro-Muslim" consumers." | 15:10 |
| fenn | they totally ripped off the coca cola logo, i'm surprised they haven't been sued to oblivion | 15:10 |
| QuantumG | it's probably Coke in disguise | 15:11 |
| fenn | that would be perfect | 15:11 |
| kanzure | freedom isn't pro-muslim people? | 15:11 |
| fenn | not when "freedom" is defined as "good old fashioned american values" and "santa claus" | 15:11 |
| kanzure | can i convince you to do python-brlcad things | 15:12 |
| QuantumG | and beach parties, don't forget beach parties | 15:12 |
| kanzure | think of all the terrible gundams you could be designing | 15:12 |
| fenn | you don't need to convince me | 15:12 |
| fenn | i have to clear off my virtual desktop | 15:12 |
| kanzure | http://fc03.deviantart.net/fs70/i/2013/105/8/e/what_if_i_told_you_by_heroforpain-d61vzyl.jpg | 15:12 |
| kanzure | bbl | 15:13 |
| fenn | http://fennetic.net/irc/ram_full_htop_screenshot.png | 15:14 |
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| fenn | i dont get why i have so many chrome processes open, all my tabs have been killed | 15:16 |
| QuantumG | it's probably process pooling | 15:16 |
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| fenn | view from the other side of the fence http://fennetic.net/irc/chrome_task_manager.png | 15:18 |
| eudoxia | who uses tineye anymore now that google does reverse image search | 15:20 |
| fenn | me? | 15:20 |
| eudoxia | i thought maybe you hadn't heard since you were dead for two years or something | 15:21 |
| fenn | google is much better but i often don't want to go into chrome just so i can use google's image search (it doesn't let you do image search without javascript) | 15:21 |
| eudoxia | ah, right, dillo | 15:22 |
| fenn | sometimes i wonder if the standard interface actually works for most people or if they're just not doing very much | 15:23 |
| fenn | by "standard" i mean a big desktop computer running windows whatever and 16GB of ram | 15:23 |
| eudoxia | google's tools have become a little web 2.0 for me. if you type or click on the wrong part of the search results by accident the whole thing clears and it's like auughhhhhhh | 15:24 |
| fenn | yeah i can't figure out whether the image is part of the query or not | 15:24 |
| QuantumG | 1. google for X 2. discover it's called Y 3. start typing Y into the search box -> the search automatically changes while you're typing hiding what you were reading. | 15:25 |
| fenn | i'd love to have some tooltip thingy that you can just right click->get info and a little bubble with thumbnails and context pops up | 15:26 |
| eudoxia | startpage is rather nice | 15:27 |
| fenn | instead of "here's fifty images that look exactly alike and some urls we've truncated" | 15:27 |
| fenn | can you do search by image with startpage? | 15:29 |
| eudoxia | doesn't seem that way | 15:29 |
| fenn | personally i don't give a shit about "tracking" | 15:30 |
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| fenn | but using services like this gives you a false sense of security | 15:30 |
| fenn | https://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2010/01/tracking-by-user-agent | 15:31 |
| fenn | https://panopticlick.eff.org/index.php?action=log | 15:32 |
| eudoxia | i wonder if there's a list of most common user agents | 15:32 |
| justanotheruser | eudoxia: 1st place is probably the Tor Firefox bundle | 15:33 |
| fenn | "Your browser fingerprint appears to be unique among the 4,117,834 tested so far." (for chrome) | 15:33 |
| fenn | nevermind IP, cookie attacks, web beacons, usernames, writing analysis, and so on | 15:34 |
| QuantumG | irc logs | 15:37 |
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| jrayhawk | google image search works fine without javascript | 16:02 |
| eudoxia | reverse search | 16:14 |
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| dingo | i got greetz'd in an artpack :-) http://www.asciiarena.com/info_release.php?filename=aW1wLW5oLnR4dA== | 16:53 |
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| QuantumG | the early 1990s called, they want their propz back | 17:48 |
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| jrayhawk | the ANSI charset would just confuse the artpack community back then | 18:00 |
| jrayhawk | honestly, a macron overline? what the hell is that shit? | 18:00 |
| fenn | is an "ansi charset" just a pixel font for a terminal? | 18:04 |
| fenn | i don't understand why it's all images | 18:06 |
| QuantumG | You mean, why that website renders it for you? | 18:09 |
| jrayhawk | ASCII had a standard pixel font, I don't think ANSI ever did. | 18:10 |
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| fenn | i knew that sounded familiar http://fennetic.net/irc/charlotte_gainsbourg_IRM.mp3 | 18:16 |
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| fenn | forth would be so much better if it were just lowercase | 18:35 |
| QuantumG | have ya discovered color forth yet? | 18:37 |
| fenn | i'm not sure about the whole idea | 18:37 |
| fenn | i guess you could say "everyone uses syntax coloring anyway so why not just use color for syntax the way python uses whitespace for block delimiters" but i'm sure these arguments have been hashed over and over on usenet before i was born | 18:38 |
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| QuantumG | check more crazy into forth, amiright? | 18:39 |
| fenn | i dunno i mean the brain only has so many input channels, might as well make use of them | 18:39 |
| fenn | the big problem seems to be bit rot? like i'm finding code last updated in 1992 | 18:40 |
| QuantumG | this shit is hilarious: http://www.colorforth.com/1percent.html | 18:40 |
| fenn | oh i believe it, there have been similar essays about lisp vs c | 18:41 |
| QuantumG | it's like Poe's law on steroids | 18:41 |
| fenn | .wik poe's law | 18:41 |
| yoleaux | "Poe's law, named after its author Nathan Poe, is an Internet adage reflecting the idea that without a clear indication of the author's intent, it is difficult or impossible to tell the difference between an expression of sincere extremism and a parody of extremism." — http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poe%27s_law | 18:41 |
| QuantumG | "There are no errors that can be detected." is the funniest sentence in there. | 18:42 |
| fenn | he is serious | 18:42 |
| QuantumG | yeah, but if you were trying to write a parody, you couldn't do better. | 18:42 |
| fenn | since there is no syntax, there are no errors that can be detected by the compiler | 18:42 |
| fenn | everything compiles | 18:43 |
| fenn | it just probably doesn't do what you want the first time | 18:43 |
| fenn | this is considered a bad thing by haskell people | 18:43 |
| fenn | do you like "bondage and discipline" or "freedom"? | 18:43 |
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| QuantumG | do you, like, find employment? | 18:45 |
| fenn | please rephrase the question | 18:45 |
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| fenn | "can you get hired at a java shop?" | 18:46 |
| QuantumG | your concerns never seem to be about practical things.. like working with other humans. | 18:46 |
| fenn | probably because i hate most people | 18:46 |
| QuantumG | I could ask this another way.. how do you feel about Perl? | 18:46 |
| fenn | perl reminds me of digging through a scrap heap | 18:47 |
| fenn | there's probably something good in there, but you have to plough through all the garbage in the way to find it | 18:47 |
| QuantumG | right.. well, Forth is like that, but it's an alien scrap heap | 18:47 |
| fenn | yeah :( | 18:47 |
| kanzure | fenn stopped me from writing more perl | 18:48 |
| kanzure | although i think i knew it was about time anyway | 18:48 |
| QuantumG | Perl is your write-once language.. Forth is your I'd-write-once-if-I-was-crazy language. | 18:48 |
| fenn | perl got me to learn regular expressions and vim, so it wasn't a total waste | 18:48 |
| fenn | perl isn't write-once it's just kinda amateurish | 18:49 |
| QuantumG | hmm.. write-only.. I knew what I meant anyway. | 18:49 |
| QuantumG | write-once is considered the extreme alternative to Perl that I don't subscribe to either. | 18:49 |
| fenn | this is not too hard to understand ftp://ftp.taygeta.com/pub/Forth/Applications/99beers.f | 18:50 |
| eudoxia | lisp is "write once then go back to hiding under your blankie pretending someone else will read it" | 18:50 |
| fenn | 1 ?: BOTTLE(S) BOTTLE BOTTLES | 18:53 |
| fenn | i mean you don't even have to know forth to figure out how that works | 18:53 |
| kanzure | .title https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3MxGtH-2duM | 18:55 |
| yoleaux | JAPANESE SPIDER-MAN TRAILER - MARVEL.COM | 18:55 |
| fenn | can people print out moth robots yet | 18:56 |
| kanzure | you can capture moths and stick thumbtacks in them | 18:57 |
| kanzure | i mean thumbtack microcontrollers | 18:57 |
| fenn | you're thinking of the cyborg beetle | 18:57 |
| fenn | .wik cyborg beetle | 18:57 |
| yoleaux | "A cyborg, short for "cybernetic organism", is a being with both organic and biomechatronic parts. See for example biomaterials, bionics and biomechatronics. The term was coined in 1960 by Manfred Clynes and Nathan S. Kline. D." — http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cyborg | 18:57 |
| fenn | hm | 18:57 |
| cluckj | beetleborgs? | 18:59 |
| kanzure | .title https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jPX-FX0KStE | 18:59 |
| yoleaux | 'Japanese Spider-Man' - Intro | 18:59 |
| kanzure | so in japanese spiderman, he rides a motorcycle and controls a giant mecha and has a japanese martial arts style | 18:59 |
| kanzure | also he carries an automatic gun because why not? | 18:59 |
| fenn | well this is a not too bad article http://www.cs.virginia.edu/~robins/Cyborg_Beetles.pdf | 19:00 |
| kanzure | subtitles on this one are pretty funny: | 19:01 |
| kanzure | .title https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cpzvap_y6CI | 19:01 |
| yoleaux | Spiderman 1978 Pilot Episode | 19:01 |
| kanzure | "wow there is a giant robot why is there a giant robot? how could marvel ever agree to something like this? | 19:01 |
| kanzure | too bad this isn't starring bruce lee. hrm. | 19:02 |
| catern | spaidaman | 19:04 |
| fenn | .title http://www.biotele.com/robomoth.html | 19:05 |
| yoleaux | Pentagon plans cyber-insect army | 19:05 |
| fenn | much more scalable than hand wiring each bug | 19:06 |
| fenn | omg a buttered cat-toast device | 19:06 |
| fenn | "Attach a bomb to a cat and drop it from a dive-bomber on to Nazi ships. The cat, hating water, will "wrangle" itself on to enemy ship's deck." | 19:06 |
| fenn | kamikazekat | 19:07 |
| kanzure | these people seem to know what roshi is for: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7732696 | 19:07 |
| eudoxia | kamicate | 19:07 |
| fenn | Syringes later placed on dolphin flippers to inject carbon dioxide into divers, who explode. US Navy has always denied using mammals to harm humans | 19:07 |
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| kanzure | this guy was head of us navy animal ops for a few decades: http://diyhpl.us/wiki/transcripts/orca-2014/bailey/ | 19:08 |
| kanzure | "Then I was hired along as a US Navy dolphin project. I met the Brelands. Bailey joined ABE in 1965. keller Breland died in 1965. Our objective, our objective was to combine animal training with evolutionary biology, whatever you wish to call it, I joined in 1965." | 19:09 |
| FourFire | fenn wtf wut? | 19:10 |
| fenn | FourFire: from the last link i pasted | 19:10 |
| kanzure | "these dolphins are property of the us navy. they were specially trained to serve as submarine torpedos. there is a special launch system designed by none other than temple grandin." | 19:11 |
| fenn | jesus christ she gives aspies a bad name | 19:12 |
| FourFire | ... | 19:12 |
| fenn | "how to efficiently do horrible things" | 19:12 |
| kanzure | what's wrong with efficiency | 19:12 |
| fenn | it's wrong when you're doing horrible things with it | 19:12 |
| kanzure | so let's be horribly inefficient instead? | 19:12 |
| FourFire | temple grandin: devising dolphin torpedo tubes | 19:12 |
| kanzure | FourFire: no, he's referring to the 1 million cows slaughtered per day | 19:13 |
| QuantumG | this is just more evidence that dolphins are useless | 19:13 |
| fenn | blowing up dolphins who think you're their friend is pretty bad too | 19:13 |
| FourFire | yeah, well everyone who eats beef has to agree that efficiency and minimized suffering is net positive utility | 19:13 |
| FourFire | and it really was about reducing suffering, with the economic incentive for deployment of these systems being increased efficiency | 19:13 |
| QuantumG | no they don't | 19:13 |
| kanzure | go back to lesswrong | 19:13 |
| kanzure | you're terrible at this | 19:14 |
| FourFire | kanzure, I know, but I'll keep accepting your encouraging advice ;) | 19:14 |
| kanzure | while ignoring it.. let me guess, you're now going to rant about utility functions for the next week | 19:14 |
| eudoxia | dolphins > dumb ass cows | 19:15 |
| FourFire | but yeah weaponized dolphins, that's wrong | 19:15 |
| FourFire | kanzure, uhh no I'd rather not, I get enough of that in the other channel | 19:15 |
| QuantumG | everyone who eats beef has to agree that beef is delicious, otherwise they'd eat something else <- even that's a contentious argument | 19:15 |
| fenn | you have to admit there's a difference between a dolphin with weapons and an unwitting suicide bomber dolphin | 19:15 |
| kanzure | QuantumG: agreed that it is contentious | 19:15 |
| FourFire | cheaper meh beef is better for them though, right? | 19:15 |
| FourFire | (the ones who don't agree) | 19:16 |
| QuantumG | better for what? | 19:16 |
| kanzure | and who gets to decide better | 19:16 |
| kanzure | or the spectrum, or whether or not it's a spectrum, and the methods of measurement | 19:17 |
| * kanzure glares at FourFire | 19:17 | |
| QuantumG | also racism | 19:17 |
| kanzure | hm? | 19:17 |
| QuantumG | why not | 19:17 |
| * FourFire waves cheerily back | 19:17 | |
| kanzure | well, by spectrum i mean better/worse spectrum- but there's many more variables going on here other than just "better for my argument" | 19:18 |
| kanzure | sure, let's make models so simple that they don't do anything interesting | 19:18 |
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| kanzure | QuantumG: on a related note, i am interested in whether you have an opinion on human cannibalism, and what the opinion is | 19:19 |
| QuantumG | only if its voluntary | 19:19 |
| QuantumG | consenting adults and all | 19:19 |
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| kanzure | oh right, i guess there's a range of activity that might imply (human hunting, dead person no other food scenarios, consenting cannibalism), bleh nevermind | 19:20 |
| fenn | "Ukrainian navy's dolphins based in Sevastopol switched sides to Russia" | 19:20 |
| QuantumG | heh | 19:21 |
| kanzure | i haven't heard anyone suggesting that there should be human hunting (for purposes of game food), but there's probably someone somewhere that wants that | 19:21 |
| fenn | damn you ungrateful fish whores! | 19:21 |
| fenn | it was teh caviar | 19:22 |
| QuantumG | the most dangerous sport | 19:22 |
| QuantumG | eat what you catch | 19:22 |
| kanzure | i feel like that was a movie | 19:22 |
| kanzure | had lots of terrible one liners | 19:22 |
| eudoxia | i think it was an episode of the simpsons | 19:22 |
| fenn | .g the metamorphosis of prime intellect | 19:22 |
| yoleaux | http://localroger.com/prime-intellect/ | 19:22 |
| QuantumG | heh | 19:22 |
| kanzure | captain freedom was in it | 19:22 |
| kanzure | .title https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LazUZz3K6IY | 19:23 |
| yoleaux | Captain Freedom's Workout Commercial | 19:23 |
| fenn | bloodsport, predator, running man, jeez there's a whole list here https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_hunting | 19:24 |
| fenn | Slave Girls from Beyond Infinity is a 1987 film that transports “The Most Dangerous Game” to an alien world and populates it with bikini-clad space prison escapees and weird space monsters. | 19:24 |
| kanzure | also there was an anime about this, with the black black club | 19:25 |
| fenn | "The killer originated the name "Zodiac" in a series of taunting letters sent to the local Bay Area press. These letters included four cryptograms (or ciphers). Of the four cryptograms sent, only one has been definitively solved." | 19:28 |
| fenn | man this should be like crypto 101 introduction to cryptanalysis project | 19:28 |
| QuantumG | is metagenomics actually good for anything? | 19:34 |
| fenn | studying things you can't culture easily | 19:35 |
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| QuantumG | fair enough | 19:36 |
| fenn | so i dunno if you can grow Thermus aquaticus on LB agar | 19:37 |
| fenn | it is sometimes found living jointly with its neighbors, obtaining energy for growth from their photosynthesis. | 19:38 |
| gnusha | https://secure.diyhpl.us/cgit/diyhpluswiki/commit/?id=5c802ae7 Bryan Bishop: heuristics about failing fast >> http://diyhpl.us/diyhpluswiki/projects/heuristics/ | 19:39 |
| fenn | "Researchers working in National Parks are now required to sign "benefits sharing" agreements that would send a portion of later profits back to the Park Service." | 19:39 |
| fenn | becuase the National Parks invented the universe | 19:39 |
| kanzure | "and this is the national park of outer space" | 19:40 |
| fenn | uh, it's not too far off: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Outer_Space_Treaty | 19:41 |
| kanzure | good thing i do not respect that treaty (i am a martian native, you see, and i have come here to setup the martian embassy on earth) | 19:42 |
| fenn | " common heritage of humankind or common heritage principle) is a principle of international law which holds that defined territorial areas and elements of humanity's common heritage (cultural and natural) should be held in trust for future generations and be protected from exploitation by individual nation states or corporations." | 19:42 |
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| kanzure | ah, only nation states and corporations | 19:43 |
| kanzure | so individuals are free to do whatever | 19:43 |
| fenn | that's my reading of it | 19:43 |
| kanzure | :stamp of approval: | 19:43 |
| fenn | corporations and nations are hereby confined to planet earth | 19:43 |
| fenn | done and done | 19:43 |
| kanzure | you should fix http://diyhpl.us/wiki/projects/heuristics | 19:43 |
| QuantumG | I once saw a particularly large and strange bug at a 7/11, never saw one like it again, asked a few entomologists about it and got blank looks.. concluded that it was an alien come to Earth to investigate franchise opportunities. | 19:44 |
| kanzure | i'm certain that australia has lots of bugs that nobody has studied in great detail | 19:44 |
| fenn | "their sugar production is of adequate efficiency" | 19:44 |
| cluckj | earth slurpees are easy | 19:44 |
| fenn | kanzure why dont you just ask for "the answer to life, the universe, and everything" | 19:45 |
| kanzure | i already know that one | 19:45 |
| kanzure | asking you to edit a wiki page is not too burdening | 19:46 |
| QuantumG | people who worry that their wiki will get defaced have clearly never set up a wiki before. | 19:47 |
| fenn | i'm supposed to be closing tabs, not opening new ones | 19:47 |
| kanzure | you have the file locally anyway | 19:48 |
| fenn | also these are hard questions | 19:48 |
| kanzure | well someone has to write them down | 19:48 |
| fenn | "number of bugs"? maybe you should ask steve rayhawk to write this | 19:48 |
| kanzure | i did, and he told me to ask za3k | 19:49 |
| fenn | i'm interested in the concept of cognitive load, but i don't know if i know enough in an abstract sense to write about it yet | 19:50 |
| kanzure | cognitive impedance might belong on that page, maybe | 19:50 |
| fenn | my gut feeling is that trying to calculate the "cost" in dollars is misguided at best | 19:50 |
| kanzure | costs don't have to be dollars | 19:51 |
| fenn | since the value (utility) of anything is completely subjective | 19:51 |
| kanzure | there are inefficiencies that can add and multiply up | 19:51 |
| kanzure | i would clearly fail to build a dyson sphere today | 19:51 |
| QuantumG | ya don't know if ya don't try | 19:51 |
| kanzure | (i mean today-today, not "in general") | 19:51 |
| fenn | how much does a dyson sphere cost? what's it worth? | 19:51 |
| kanzure | well, there's a minimum energy cost to deploying a dyson sphere i think | 19:52 |
| kanzure | it doesn't just poof into existence: the material has to come from somewhere | 19:52 |
| fenn | i saw donald trump's "selling the united states of america" and it was disappointing | 19:52 |
| QuantumG | You're Fired | 19:52 |
| kanzure | and i don't mean that you have to "pay" with "dollars", but you definitely have to hook up the right resource sinks and resource pumps | 19:52 |
| fenn | he estimates the value of everything inside the US borders (excluding, notably, intellectual property) | 19:52 |
| fenn | so the neat thing about a dyson sphere is it bootstraps | 19:53 |
| fenn | the more solar panels you build, the more power you have to build the rest | 19:54 |
| kanzure | power isn't the only input | 19:54 |
| kanzure | and you're ignoring my point | 19:54 |
| fenn | so you want a heuristic of manual vs automatization but want everything to be automated? | 19:55 |
| kanzure | because i want a heuristic, i therefore want everything automated? | 19:55 |
| fenn | if you want to build a dyson sphere, it's gonna have to be automated | 19:55 |
| fenn | unless you have really strong arms | 19:55 |
| kanzure | probably, but at some point i have to press a button or two | 19:55 |
| kanzure | probably write some code | 19:56 |
| kanzure | build some stuff | 19:56 |
| kanzure | you know, the usual | 19:56 |
| fenn | ok, hows this for a heuristic: code should be written manually, everything else should be automated | 19:56 |
| fenn | the "don't repeat yourself" principle | 19:56 |
| kanzure | everything everything? | 19:56 |
| fenn | sure why not | 19:56 |
| kanzure | well, it's certainly page-appropriate, but i'm not sure it's a good idea | 19:57 |
| fenn | i mean people can still cook or garden as a hobby if they want | 19:57 |
| fenn | nobody sews their own clothes from yarn they wove from flax they spun anymore | 19:57 |
| kanzure | you mean like why_'s lungs growing into his shitty cpu and finally convincing his computer to do manual tasks for him, without moving, etc | 19:57 |
| kanzure | there are in fact spinsters | 19:57 |
| fenn | .d spinster | 19:57 |
| kanzure | and even hipster spinsters | 19:58 |
| yoleaux | spinster (/ˈspɪnstə/): n. An unmarried woman, typically an older woman beyond the usual age for marriage — http://is.gd/AoQEEQ | 19:58 |
| kanzure | oh wait | 19:58 |
| kanzure | hm that's wrong | 19:58 |
| kanzure | they spin yarn | 19:58 |
| fenn | nobody spins their own yarn | 19:58 |
| kanzure | is my point | 19:58 |
| kanzure | then how do you explain etsy | 19:58 |
| fenn | it's a hobby | 19:58 |
| kanzure | but also they make money from it | 19:58 |
| fenn | unfortunately i've purged from my mind all the horrible things people do to make money | 19:59 |
| kanzure | so, i can't think of many hardware projects (other than microchips?) where you don't actually have to do anything manually | 19:59 |
| kanzure | i mean physical labor | 19:59 |
| fenn | have you seen "how it's made"? | 20:00 |
| kanzure | of course | 20:00 |
| kanzure | there are often shots of non-automated stuff happening | 20:00 |
| kanzure | and even some partially-automated factories where people are doing physical labor | 20:00 |
| fenn | ok so the LEGO factory is 100% automated, plastic granules come in one side and boxes full of LEGO come out the other | 20:00 |
| kanzure | in most cases, the people can be replaced by mechanisms once someone decides that's a reasonable business expense | 20:00 |
| fenn | but then they have shit like antique boot spurs where the guy is cutting pieces of metal with a file | 20:00 |
| fenn | there's no real difference in complexity | 20:01 |
| fenn | i mean, the guy probably just likes using a file and invented a reason to justify his hobby | 20:01 |
| kanzure | those are established factories, i'm talking about engineering projects, where you're building the factory, or the project, etc | 20:01 |
| kanzure | if you go hang out with the industrial automation engineers, i bet they do tons of manual tasks when they're prototyping out the equipment that they'll eventually move to the factory floor | 20:02 |
| fenn | aside from prototyping i don't see why this should ever happen | 20:02 |
| QuantumG | I watched a movie last night from 2006.. no-one used a mobile phone, so it could have been made in the 1960s. | 20:02 |
| kanzure | fenn: because waiting for your lungs to interface with the cpu is yak shaving | 20:02 |
| fenn | i don't get that reference | 20:02 |
| fenn | some kind of brain implant argument? | 20:03 |
| kanzure | yes you do.. | 20:03 |
| fenn | didn't why_ commit "info suicide"? | 20:03 |
| fenn | i don't understand that either | 20:03 |
| fenn | basing your arguments on hypothetical actions of a crazy person is a bad argument | 20:03 |
| QuantumG | "Yak shaving is what you are doing when you're doing some stupid, fiddly little task that bears no obvious relationship to what you're supposed to be working on, but yet a chain of twelve causal relations links what you're doing to the original meta-task." Carlin J. Vieri, a Ph.D. at MIT back in the 90s. | 20:04 |
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| kanzure | "And you know (you’ve got to know!) that this is going to turn into an obsession. First, you’ll completely forget to take the dog out. It’ll be standing by the screen door, darting its head about, as your eyes devour the code, as your fingers slip messages to the computer." | 20:04 |
| kanzure | "Thanks to your neglect, things will start to break. Your mounds of printed sheets of code will cover up your air vents. Your furnace will choke. The trash will pile-up: take-out boxes you hurriedly ordered in, junk mail you couldn’t care to dispose of. Your own uncleanliness will pollute the air. Moss will infest the rafters, the water will clog, animals will let themselves in, trees will come up through the foundations." | 20:05 |
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| kanzure | "But your computer will be well-cared for. And you, Smotchkkiss, will have nourished it with your knowledge. In the eons you will have spent with your machine, you will have become part-CPU. And it will have become part-flesh. Your arms will flow directly into its ports. Your eyes will accept the video directly from DVI-24 pin. Your lungs will sit just above the processor, cooling it." | 20:05 |
| kanzure | "And just as the room is ready to force itself shut upon you, just as all the overgrowth swallows you and your machine, you will finish your script. You and the machine together will run this latest Ruby script, the product of your obsession." | 20:05 |
| kanzure | "And the script will fire up chainsaws to trim the trees, hearths to warm and regulate the house. Builder nanites will rush from your script, reconstructing your quarters, retiling, renovating, chroming, polishing, disinfecting." | 20:05 |
| kanzure | "Mighty androids will force your crumbling house into firm, rigid architecture. Great pillars will rise, statues chiseled. You will have dominion over this palatial estate and over the encompassing mountains and islands of your stronghold." | 20:05 |
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| kanzure | "And so was born the Second Law of the Civilized Worlds, which was that Man could not stare too long at the faces of the Computer or her children, and still remain as Man." | 20:05 |
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| fenn | .wik childhood's end | 20:06 |
| yoleaux | "Childhood's End is a 1953 science fiction novel by the British author Arthur C. Clarke. The story follows the peaceful alien invasion of Earth by the mysterious Overlords, whose arrival begins decades of apparent utopia under indirect alien rule, at the cost of human identity and culture." — http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Childhood%27s_End | 20:06 |
| kanzure | oh not not my human identity.. what an asshole. | 20:07 |
| kanzure | fenn: would you agree that there is sometimes an initial amount of repetition before you have an opportunity to (or even a clue as to how to efficiently) not repeat yourself | 20:08 |
| QuantumG | Childhood's End is Arthur C. Clarke's fantasy that humanity become pets. | 20:08 |
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| kanzure | that sounds like a boring scifi story | 20:08 |
| kanzure | where's my "riding maser beams across the sky" and my "light cone computational field" shit.. blah. | 20:09 |
| fenn | QuantumG: no, it was the adults that became pets. the children became some higher power | 20:09 |
| fenn | clarke was too vague about the details | 20:10 |
| kanzure | waiting for hardware to happen to you is a bad plan | 20:10 |
| fenn | the "overlords" showed up to keep the children from blowing up the planet in an infant rage | 20:10 |
| kanzure | it's practically the same plan as the rest of the transhumanists | 20:11 |
| fenn | anyway there's probably some science fiction law preceding "the Second Law of the Civilized Worlds" | 20:11 |
| kanzure | yes zindell undoubtedly took that from somewhere, and if nowhere obvious then probably the amish | 20:12 |
| fenn | fucking info suicide, wtf is that shit | 20:12 |
| kanzure | the rest was written by that ruby programmer, why_ | 20:12 |
| QuantumG | yeah, nuclear annihilation was fashion of misanthropy at the time, just as climate change is now. It's not exactly relevant. What is relevant is that he made it abundantly clear that he preferred servitude to overloads. | 20:12 |
| fenn | how about info homicide | 20:12 |
| fenn | "from A Requiem for Homo Sapiens, by Horthy Hosthoh | 20:14 |
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| fenn | so is why_ arguing that automation is good or bad? | 20:17 |
| kanzure | he was writing that for unrelated reasons | 20:17 |
| kanzure | something about it helping you to learn ruby | 20:17 |
| fenn | i'm looking at this thinking, if i'm integrated into a computer with nanites at my disposal, why do i need a house? | 20:18 |
| kanzure | he's not claiming that learning ruby will cause you to create nanites | 20:19 |
| kanzure | this should be on the wiki page.. | 20:19 |
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| fenn | i actually read that "guide to ruby" with the intent of learning ruby... | 20:19 |
| kanzure | class str << def init(x) segfault end; | 20:21 |
| kanzure | how is "don't repeat yourself hardware-style" going to work out for your "pick up and leave and recreate wherever i happen to be" strategy? seems counter-indicative. | 20:23 |
| fenn | oh that's just object code | 20:24 |
| kanzure | huh? | 20:24 |
| fenn | the "stuff" is a compilation product | 20:24 |
| kanzure | repeating is compiling it yourself again | 20:24 |
| fenn | yes this is why we need a matter compiler | 20:24 |
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| kanzure | yak shaving.. | 20:25 |
| fenn | not at all | 20:25 |
| fenn | it's the whole point | 20:25 |
| fenn | show me something better to work on | 20:25 |
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| fenn | ok there's "not dying" that's a pretty high priority immediate need | 20:26 |
| fenn | but i dont know how to make progress on that aside from the basics | 20:26 |
| kanzure | i posit that it is possible to do things without a matter compiler | 20:26 |
| fenn | it's also possible to spin yarn by hand and make an ugly frock | 20:27 |
| fenn | .d frock | 20:27 |
| yoleaux | frock (/frɒk/): n. 1. A woman’s or girl’s dress: her new party ⁓; 2. A loose outer garment, in particular; 3. The work and position of a priest: such words as these cost the preacher his ⁓ — http://is.gd/k1bC4e | 20:27 |
| kanzure | yep | 20:28 |
| fenn | monk stuff | 20:28 |
| fenn | self-flagellation | 20:28 |
| fenn | some people knit for fun | 20:28 |
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| fenn | i'd like to know how to bootstrap from mud and sticks, but it's not a requirement for a matter compiler to run on dirt and sticks | 20:29 |
| fenn | besides, sticks have a fair amount of processing done to them already | 20:29 |
| fenn | dirt and sunlight | 20:29 |
| fenn | ok | 20:29 |
| fenn | p. aeruginosa can do quite a lot with that | 20:30 |
| kanzure | the whole point was regarding repeating yourself, and now there's a matter compiler involved that doesn't exist or something.. | 20:30 |
| fenn | " hydrocarbon-using microorganism (or "HUM bug")" | 20:31 |
| kanzure | this doesn't seem to explain the existence of any working technology whatsoever- if to do things required a matter compiler, why do we have particle colliders, space shuttles and a supercomputer in everyone's pocket? | 20:31 |
| fenn | we don't | 20:31 |
| fenn | because we don't have a matter compiler | 20:31 |
| fenn | oh i thought you meant "a particle collider and a space shuttle in everyone's pocket" | 20:31 |
| kanzure | i feel like you're ignoring the original questions, and instead injecting your santa clause machine wish list | 20:31 |
| kanzure | i'm well aware of your wish list | 20:32 |
| kanzure | perhaps the most aware | 20:32 |
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| fenn | 1) santa claus machine 2) ??? 3) relax | 20:32 |
| fenn | i'm not sure i understand the principle of least power | 20:34 |
| kanzure | it should be called a shenron machine instead of a santa claus machine | 20:35 |
| kanzure | who name's this shit? | 20:35 |
| fenn | people who dont watch kids anime | 20:36 |
| kanzure | shenron is way cooler than santa claus | 20:36 |
| kanzure | "kids, you better behave, because the giant terrifying dragon in the sky will not grant your wish otherwise" | 20:37 |
| fenn | santa claus was much more scary in the old world versions | 20:38 |
| QuantumG | and Futurama | 20:38 |
| fenn | "kids you better behave or black pete will put you in his knapsack and force you to work in the arsenic mines" | 20:38 |
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| kanzure | that is acceptable | 20:38 |
| QuantumG | equally naughty | 20:39 |
| fenn | https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Futurama_(New_York_World%27s_Fair) | 20:39 |
| fenn | and somehow we ended up with an interstate highway system | 20:40 |
| fenn | bucky fuller said "never build something if you can buy it" | 20:47 |
| fenn | see how well that turned out | 20:48 |
| fenn | this article makes the dolphin thing seem okay http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2609569/Could-American-Russian-combat-dolphins-clash-Black-Sea-Ukraine-crisis.html | 20:51 |
| fenn | "Last year three of five spy dolphins went absent without leave in the Black Sea - apparently in search of love, but returned to their duties shortly afterwards." | 20:52 |
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| QuantumG | well, that's a pain | 20:55 |
| QuantumG | case sensitive login username.. Firefox keeps "fixing" the case | 20:56 |
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| kanzure | finding out-of-map errors are a handy way of estimating when you've played a certain game too much | 21:09 |
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| kanzure | fenn: you're aware that you're still ignoring my earlier statements, right? | 21:15 |
| QuantumG | so, is "Schulz" pronounced with a t sound after the l or not? | 21:16 |
| kanzure | depends on the family, you'll have to ask them | 21:16 |
| QuantumG | heh | 21:16 |
| kanzure | and sometimes even if there is a t, they keep it silent | 21:17 |
| kanzure | fenn: you should write a tetris packer for moving and packing cars, where you estimate the size of each of your possessions to determine if there's a way to get everything in there | 21:18 |
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| kanzure | i wonder if product recall announcements can be forged | 21:29 |
| fenn | 3d nesting inventory is definitely on the project list | 21:39 |
| fenn | the fish tub system works great except i have no source for new fish tubs | 21:39 |
| kanzure | i don't think nesting inventory is what i said | 21:40 |
| fenn | generic DC2115-12 industrial totes are the next best commodity | 21:41 |
| fenn | what's the difference between nesting inventory and packing cars? | 21:42 |
| kanzure | " I keenly felt the challenges of making APIs that "looked" like function calls to a programmer but took place across a network fabric and thus introduced error conditions that couldn't exist in locally called routines. (like the inability to return from the function due to a network partition for a simple example). Lamport's work in this space is brilliant and inspired. Network systems can be analysed and reasoned about as physical systems ... | 21:42 |
| kanzure | ... when they exhibit discontinuities when considered as simple algorithms. The value here is to realize that a large number of physical systems tolerate a tremendous amount of randomness and continue to work as intended (windmills for example) while many algorithms only work consistently given a set of key invariants. I gave a talk that was inspired by Dr. Lamports work titled 'Java as Newtonian Physics' which was a call to action to create ... | 21:43 |
| kanzure | ... a set of invariants, in the spirit of physical laws, that would govern the behavior and capabilities of distributed systems. It was way early for its time (AOL dialup connections were still a thing) but much of the same inspiration (presumably from Lamport) made it into the Google Spanner project." | 21:43 |
| fenn | Spanner, a NewSQL distributed relational database by Google. It can distribute and store data in data centers across the world, provide consistency that is as excellent as in RDBMS while enabling to store an amount of data that exceeds the capacity of a single data center. | 21:45 |
| kanzure | well the way you say it makes it sound boring | 21:45 |
| kanzure | i mean spanner | 21:46 |
| kanzure | (never heard of it) | 21:46 |
| fenn | it does sound boring | 21:46 |
| kanzure | sheena1: there are dolphin training things in the scrollback | 21:46 |
| fenn | today i learned that ben franklin introduced tofu curry to the united states | 21:50 |
| fenn | London, January 11, 1770 | 21:51 |
| fenn | “My ever dear Friend: I send Chinese Garavances. Cheese [is] made of them, in China, which so excited my curiosity. Some runnings of salt (I suppose runnet) is put into water, when the meal is in it, to turn to curds. These … are what the Tau-fu is made of.” | 21:51 |
| ParahSailin | runnet? | 21:52 |
| fenn | rennet | 21:52 |
| ParahSailin | is that how they spelled rennet back then? | 21:53 |
| fenn | people just spelled however they felt until 1600 something | 21:53 |
| fenn | .ety rennet | 21:54 |
| yoleaux | rennet (n.1): ""inner membrane of a calf's fourth stomach," c.1400, probably from an unrecorded Old English *rynet, related to gerennan "cause to run together," because it makes milk run or curdle; from Proto-Germanic *rannijanan, causative of *renwanan " …" — http://etymonline.com/index.php?term=rennet | 21:54 |
| fenn | the chinese apparently forgot to tell the westerners that you're supposed to ferment the soybeans | 21:55 |
| ParahSailin | not for tofu | 21:55 |
| ParahSailin | the important piece they left out was that it is supposed to be vitriol of lime to make it curdle | 21:56 |
| fenn | .d vitriol of lime | 21:56 |
| yoleaux | Sorry, I couldn't find a definition for 'vitriol of lime'. | 21:56 |
| fenn | me either | 21:56 |
| ParahSailin | we call it gypsum now | 21:57 |
| fenn | apparently magnesium chloride works too | 21:57 |
| ParahSailin | yeah divalent cation is the magic trick | 21:57 |
| fenn | oh vitriol is just sulfuric acid | 21:58 |
| sheena1 | kanzure: how far, who/ | 21:59 |
| fenn | it does look glassy https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iron(II)_sulfate | 21:59 |
| fenn | sheena1: http://diyhpl.us/wiki/transcripts/orca-2014/bailey/ http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2609569/Could-American-Russian-combat-dolphins-clash-Black-Sea-Ukraine-crisis.html | 22:00 |
| fenn | does anyone have ferrous chloride laying around? want to verify that it is attracted to a magnet? | 22:06 |
| fenn | er, ferric chloride solution | 22:06 |
| ParahSailin | that doesnt seem likely | 22:06 |
| fenn | supposedly it is paramagnetic | 22:06 |
| fenn | and other iron sulfates and salts | 22:07 |
| ParahSailin | i would think that you wouldnt notice it in solution | 22:07 |
| fenn | oh wait, that's "1-butyl-3-methylimidazolium chloride and ferric chloride." | 22:09 |
| ParahSailin | ionic liquids are cool | 22:10 |
| fenn | yeah, i wash my dishes with them | 22:10 |
| kanzure | sheena1: just that combat dolphin stuff | 22:11 |
| fenn | Ferrofluid was invented in 1963 by NASA's Steve Papell as a liquid rocket fuel that could be drawn toward a pump inlet in a weightless environment by applying a magnetic field. | 22:12 |
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| fenn | cool libgen works: http://lib.freescienceengineering.org/view.php?id=1101023 | 22:19 |
| kanzure | logs/2013-11-30.log:17:01 < kanzure> http://lib.freescienceengineering.org/ | 22:21 |
| kanzure | "Last week it was Russia, so now it is America's turn. As the U.S. Strategic Command reported earlier, the US will conduct Exercise Global Lightning 14 from May 12-16 in coordination with other combatant commands, services, and appropriate U.S. government agencies "to deter and detect strategic attacks against the U.S. and its allies."" | 22:26 |
| kanzure | "exercise global lightning" | 22:26 |
| kanzure | man, i gotta start naming my projects better. i should name each project after a classified military exercise. | 22:27 |
| fenn | "the xanadu encyclical" | 22:28 |
| fenn | that was a jeopardy question | 22:32 |
| kanzure | if you can do something without a matter compiler, should it be done given a matter compiler does not presently exist | 22:33 |
| kanzure | is there any conceivable reason to d oit | 22:33 |
| kanzure | *to do it | 22:33 |
| fenn | see previous comment on "not dying" | 22:33 |
| kanzure | no | 22:33 |
| fenn | also humans are irrational and positive feedback helps in keeping them sane | 22:33 |
| kanzure | do you think that all effort to build anything is completely misguided, since they are not building a matter compiler | 22:34 |
| fenn | um, possibly | 22:34 |
| kanzure | what is the requirement for evidence to invalidate this? | 22:34 |
| fenn | we still need to prototype designs so we know what to build with the compiler | 22:35 |
| fenn | but arguably building the prototypes by hand is inefficient | 22:35 |
| kanzure | for example, "if it was possible to do x without/with y, then this idea is invalidated" | 22:35 |
| fenn | too many negatives in that question | 22:35 |
| kanzure | my point is that if your idea isn't bounded by anything present in reality, it's just a symptom of depression | 22:36 |
| fenn | oh but there are things that are getting close to matter compilers | 22:36 |
| kanzure | that doesn't matter | 22:36 |
| kanzure | i mean, in the context of my question to you | 22:36 |
| fenn | huh? | 22:36 |
| kanzure | i am trying to ask you things and you keep ignoring me | 22:37 |
| fenn | so, i want a waterproof spring loaded pill dispenser | 22:37 |
| kanzure | you're changing the subject | 22:37 |
| fenn | not really | 22:37 |
| fenn | alternative project, exhibit A: the pill dispenser | 22:37 |
| kanzure | i am not talking about choosing between alternative projects | 22:38 |
| fenn | we aren't? | 22:38 |
| kanzure | not even close... | 22:38 |
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| fenn | for the record i don't think i'm depressed | 22:39 |
| fenn | i'm supposed to be sleeping now so i can wake up early and go tell my psychiatrist "thanks for listening to me yapp but this was all a big waste of time" | 22:40 |
| kanzure | i see people building things all the time without matter compilers | 22:40 |
| kanzure | your theory is too highly restraining | 22:40 |
| kanzure | it doesn't account for this other existing activity | 22:41 |
| fenn | yes it definitely smacks of logical excess in the way SIAI does | 22:41 |
| kanzure | like i said, i'm well versed in shenron machine concepts | 22:41 |
| kanzure | you don't need to explain them to me | 22:41 |
| kanzure | and their definition hasn't been in question | 22:42 |
| QuantumG | perhaps humans are shenron machines | 22:42 |
| fenn | perhaps humans are just pig-monkey hybrids with an inflated sense of self-importance | 22:43 |
| kanzure | yak shaving all the way to self-replicating von neumann builders is not healthy if it impedes all progress | 22:43 |
| fenn | ok kanzure, what is "not yak shaving" | 22:43 |
| kanzure | suppose you were building a pill dispenser | 22:43 |
| QuantumG | do what you set out to do | 22:43 |
| kanzure | building molecular nanotechnology first is yak shaving | 22:44 |
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| kanzure | oh right, QuantumG answered the right question | 22:44 |
| kanzure | while i answered the other one you didn't say | 22:44 |
| fenn | i'm really confused | 22:44 |
| fenn | i want a matter compiler | 22:44 |
| kanzure | i know you do | 22:44 |
| fenn | help! | 22:44 |
| QuantumG | task = X, everything required to be done before you can do X is yak shaving. | 22:45 |
| kanzure | it is possible for someone to want two things | 22:45 |
| kanzure | QuantumG: more or less, yes- although there are often critical dependencies that i would argue could be called not yak shaving.. but close enough. | 22:45 |
| QuantumG | I disagree.. if it's *not* critical then it's not yak shaving | 22:45 |
| kanzure | what? | 22:46 |
| kanzure | i would have expected you to say: "if it is *not* critical, then doing it is yak shaving" | 22:46 |
| QuantumG | going and getting a milk shake is not yak shaving to setting up your web server, installing gcc may be. | 22:46 |
| kanzure | if you are building a pill dispenser, and you decide that you have to invent molecular nanotechnology first, what is that | 22:47 |
| QuantumG | wrong | 22:47 |
| fenn | i never said anything about molecular nanotechnology | 22:47 |
| jrayhawk | going galt | 22:47 |
| kanzure | i am using shorthand, shoo | 22:47 |
| QuantumG | at best, I'd say it's a parody of yak shaving. | 22:47 |
| fenn | ok well at least i need a cad program or my pill dispenser will be fugly | 22:48 |
| jrayhawk | there should be a better term for that than yak shaving, yeah | 22:48 |
| kanzure | graph theoretical path noise | 22:48 |
| kanzure | dependency junk | 22:48 |
| QuantumG | going a buying a hammer so you can hang a picture with a nail is yak shaving.. inventing a better hammer is at best a parody. | 22:48 |
| jrayhawk | "if you wish to make an apple pie from scratch, you must first invent the universe" carl saganing | 22:49 |
| kanzure | if you want to make an apple pie from scratch [within some defined bounds], everything within those bounds are fair game | 22:49 |
| kanzure | i am not sure why buying a hammer is yak shaving | 22:49 |
| QuantumG | cause you can't hang the picture without one? | 22:49 |
| jrayhawk | "overarchitecting" or "overengineering" maybe | 22:50 |
| fenn | "i didn't invent the universe, i just live in it" um, something i just read, possibly stanislaw lem | 22:50 |
| kanzure | it was zindell | 22:50 |
| kanzure | well, he stole everything, so nevermind | 22:50 |
| jrayhawk | everyone stole everything | 22:50 |
| kanzure | QuantumG: yak shaving is usually used to refer to things that are unnecessary | 22:51 |
| QuantumG | no it isn't | 22:51 |
| jrayhawk | no, | 22:51 |
| kanzure | your 12-step causal process loses cohesion the further out you go | 22:51 |
| jrayhawk | it's used to refer to things that LOOK unnecessary | 22:51 |
| QuantumG | yak shaving is doing all the stuff you have to do before you can do the task you were assigned. | 22:51 |
| kanzure | well that's fucked up | 22:51 |
| QuantumG | it's a pretty simple concept.. the *joke* is that you can imagine really convoluted preconditions | 22:52 |
| QuantumG | or get sidetracked doing stuff you think is necessary but really you could do without. | 22:52 |
| kanzure | see, i always thought thta, in general, the deeper you go or more distant you go from your original goal, the more each causal decision has a certain amount of error, where if you go infinitly far away, you're probably skipping out some other paths that are much shorter and more relevant to your original task | 22:52 |
| kanzure | *that | 22:52 |
| jrayhawk | http://projects.csail.mit.edu/gsb/old-archive/gsb-archive/gsb2000-02-11.html | 22:52 |
| QuantumG | and often that yak shaving, in that parody of the term, is a great way to procrastinate | 22:52 |
| kanzure | yeah, i don't get the joke, because i often really am at a yak shaving task depth of 100 | 22:53 |
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| kanzure | how is that funny, it's just fucked up | 22:53 |
| kanzure | "or get sidetracked doing stuff you think is necessary but really you could do without." aka "22:51 < kanzure> QuantumG: yak shaving is usually used to refer to things that are unnecessary" and "22:51 < QuantumG> no it isn't" | 22:53 |
| QuantumG | you never really appreciated Fucked Company did ya? | 22:53 |
| QuantumG | my friends who work at Google describe their job as yak shaving.. because all they do is develop the "infrastructure" that is supposed to change the world.. someday. | 22:54 |
| fenn | yes google does a good job at pulling the wool off of free software | 22:55 |
| kanzure | how about this, the more distant you are from the original task, the more likely your yak shaving decisions or dependency graph is going to lead to weak links and wrong necessity calculations | 22:55 |
| QuantumG | I'd agree with that.. which is why you generally try to keep yak shaving to a minimum | 22:56 |
| kanzure | do you think that to make a pill dispenser you need to first make a matter compiler | 22:56 |
| fenn | that sounds like a heuristic you should put on your wiki page | 22:56 |
| fenn | have i rambled about what "high tech" and "low tech" mean? | 22:57 |
| kanzure | no | 22:58 |
| fenn | ok in the context of air-dropping cargo onto brown people, there's this idea of "appropriate technology" where they see the whizbang million dollar matter compiler being used as a milking stand for goats | 22:58 |
| fenn | appropriate technology means that the level of infrastructure required to build/use a tech is matched to the infrastructure present in the target situation | 22:59 |
| QuantumG | there's a comment about Boost in here somewhere. | 22:59 |
| fenn | so a hatchet is pretty low tech to use | 22:59 |
| fenn | right, and Spanner is probably not what you need to store your personal address book | 23:00 |
| fenn | in many cases it turns out that the infrastructure grows and your target populace can make new copies of the thing, so your efforts multiply | 23:01 |
| fenn | something that is high tech has a large chain of dependencies | 23:03 |
| fenn | what's interesting is that sometimes a new low technology is invented and can really change a lot of things, like for example superadobe | 23:04 |
| fenn | sawyer hollow tube water filters are high tech to produce but can be used in any situation | 23:06 |
| fenn | their utility approaches zero in a first world urban environment tho | 23:06 |
| QuantumG | why do ya think that no "low technology" applications of electricity have taken off? | 23:06 |
| QuantumG | no-one could be bothered taking a high technology concept like that and backporting it? | 23:07 |
| fenn | like solar steam engines? | 23:07 |
| fenn | it happens http://www.dekaresearch.com/stirling.shtml | 23:07 |
| fenn | or the "baghdad battery" which was theoretically used for electroplating gold onto stuff 2000 years ago | 23:08 |
| fenn | er, 4000 years ago (i guess) | 23:08 |
| QuantumG | that's the ancients though.. | 23:09 |
| QuantumG | people still use hatchets.. no-one uses Lyden jars. | 23:09 |
| QuantumG | err, Leyden jars | 23:10 |
| fenn | electrowinning is pretty low tech, but it's in the context of some other high tech operation usually, because high tech things are more efficient/capable | 23:10 |
| QuantumG | you might say, oh, we can make better things now.. but that doesn't jib with your earlier low-technology concept. | 23:10 |
| fenn | i take that back, it's not always the case that high tech things are better | 23:11 |
| fenn | the modern mcmansion for example is a piece of shit | 23:11 |
| QuantumG | I say that the way people *think about* technology is more important than how technology really is. | 23:11 |
| QuantumG | something is high tech because we think of it as high tech.. not because of the number of dependencies. | 23:12 |
| fenn | meh | 23:12 |
| fenn | it's not my fault everyone is clueless | 23:14 |
| QuantumG | you can hold in your hands a hatchet that is made by a molecular manufacturing nanotech robot and still think of it as low tech. | 23:14 |
| fenn | because it has no use dependencies | 23:14 |
| QuantumG | and you can teach African tribesmen to make solar panels from mud and tree sap and still think of solar panels are high tech. | 23:15 |
| fenn | uh.. i'd like to see that | 23:15 |
| fenn | i really would | 23:15 |
| fenn | btw take a penny and oxidize it black and it's a solar panel | 23:16 |
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| fenn | have you heard of perovskite solar cells? | 23:17 |
| QuantumG | nope | 23:17 |
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| fenn | http://www.photonicsonline.com/doc/researchers-take-the-lead-out-of-easy-solar-cells-0001 | 23:18 |
| fenn | the lead kind are up to 18% efficiency? | 23:19 |
| fenn | pretty good for mixing some salts and spreading them out and baking | 23:19 |
| fenn | inorganic salts | 23:19 |
| fenn | oh and they are lasers too | 23:22 |
| fenn | http://physicsworld.com/cws/article/news/2013/sep/30/ultrathin-solar-cell-is-efficient-and-easy-to-make | 23:25 |
| fenn | .title http://youtube.com/watch?v=oQ2bz6jlbz0 | 23:26 |
| yoleaux | Perovskite solar cells made simply | 23:26 |
| fenn | shows the actual fabrication process | 23:26 |
| * fenn sleepz | 23:31 | |
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