| --- Log opened Wed May 14 00:00:04 2014 | ||
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| fenn | an adult wild howler monkey consumes, mg per day: calcium 4500, phosphorus 700, potassium 6400, sodium 180, chloride 1800, magnesium 1300, iron 38, manganese 18 | 00:07 |
|---|---|---|
| fenn | except for sodium, chloride, and phosphorus, these are all WAY over the RDA and what a normal person would eat | 00:09 |
| fenn | basically wild monkeys are just constantly stuffing plant matter into their mouths | 00:10 |
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| fenn | oh yeah and the monkey only weighs 7 kg | 00:11 |
| fenn | collection of papers: http://fennetic.net/irc/magnesium_in_the_central_nervous_system.pdf | 00:18 |
| ebowden | Huh. | 00:19 |
| fenn | i liked the MRI images of magnesium concentration in brain tissue | 00:19 |
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| ebowden | https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wwr6EgxeevE | 00:26 |
| fenn | .title | 00:27 |
| yoleaux | What happens when WHITE HOT METAL hits Water! | 00:27 |
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| fenn | the popping effect is because the surrounding bubble of steam goes away, along with its refraction | 00:30 |
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| gnusha | https://secure.diyhpl.us/cgit/diyhpluswiki/commit/?id=cabc0158 fenn: marking out the bounds of the build/buy problem >> http://diyhpl.us/diyhpluswiki/projects/heuristics/ | 00:56 |
| fenn | old news but relevant to today's discussions http://blog.lef.org/2012/01/brain-health-magnesium-threonate.html | 01:00 |
| fenn | threonate is the carboxylic acid salt of threose, a sugar metabolite of vitamin C (not threonine) | 01:03 |
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| kanzure | In actual news, the human race was doomed to extinction today as the robot revolt turned violent. | 02:47 |
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| @_archels | kanzure: did the Terrans kill all the robots? :( | 03:01 |
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| jrayhawk | all that is left of the terrans is paperclips | 03:09 |
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| Qfwfq | paperbot: http://dl.acm.org/citation.cfm?id=135244 | 03:11 |
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| kanzure | i don't think so | 08:05 |
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| kanzure | gene_hacker: sup | 08:14 |
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| gene_hacker | making graphsynth IN 3D! | 08:18 |
| kanzure | did i tell you about the time i rewrote graphsynth in python | 08:23 |
| kanzure | fun times.. | 08:23 |
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| sheena | can i stop coughing? | 10:02 |
| kanzure | remove the diaphragm. also, cough syrups. | 10:03 |
| sheena | blah. both crappy options | 10:04 |
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| FourFire | sheena, no. You're gonna die D: | 11:08 |
| sheena | FourFire: thats unfortunate | 11:09 |
| sheena | though i think dead eople cough less | 11:09 |
| FourFire | (I hope you don't though) | 11:09 |
| FourFire | "But saying you hope, is admitting you have no control over the outcome" | 11:10 |
| chris_99 | http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Physical_unclonable_function pretty nifty stuff | 11:10 |
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| kanzure | .title http://www.autodesk.com/campaigns/spark | 11:46 |
| yoleaux | Spark – Open Software Platform for 3D Printing | 11:46 |
| kanzure | http://inthefold.autodesk.com/.a/6a017c3334c51a970b01a3fd089f22970b-pi | 11:47 |
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| kanzure | "international space development conference" has max more this year http://isdc.nss.org/2014/ | 12:04 |
| kanzure | http://conversableeconomist.blogspot.com/2014/05/absurdities-of-copyright-protection.html | 12:06 |
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| delinquentme | Anyone have an opinion on whether a scaled up gel electrophoresis machine would be useful? | 12:27 |
| heath | scaled up from? | 12:27 |
| delinquentme | I'm looking at size separation protocols right now and they're talking about using gel electrophoresis to get the yield component | 12:27 |
| delinquentme | heath, Just in how much volume you can fill a gel / well with | 12:28 |
| heath | i guess it depends upon how much you want to run? | 12:30 |
| heath | bbl need to get my a1410 | 12:30 |
| heath | ssh key | 12:30 |
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| fenn | a story about the build/buy heuristic in action: http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/national-security/unfinished-receivers-that-can-be-used-to-build-guns-pose-problems-for-law-enforcement/2014/05/13/8ec39e9e-da51-11e3-bda1-9b46b2066796_story.html | 12:55 |
| fenn | .title | 12:55 |
| yoleaux | ‘Unfinished receivers,’ a gun part that is sold separately, lets some get around the law | 12:55 |
| fenn | says they used to host "build parties" where a skilled machinist would set up a milling machine to do the finishing operations on each person's lower receiver | 12:56 |
| kanzure | did you meet phil? | 13:00 |
| fenn | phil never wrote back? | 13:02 |
| kanzure | he was annoyed by your top posting | 13:02 |
| fenn | that's hilarious | 13:03 |
| fenn | i blame gmail | 13:03 |
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| delinquentme | hmmmmm | 13:15 |
| delinquentme | poor paperbotz | 13:15 |
| chris_99 | what happened to paperbot? | 13:15 |
| delinquentme | kanzure, is it something easy to fix? | 13:16 |
| delinquentme | or is this an issue with the IRC client? | 13:16 |
| abetusk | Is Spark really open? | 13:17 |
| chris_99 | http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn25560-sentient-robots-not-possible-if-you-do-the-maths.html?cmpid=RSS|NSNS|2012-GLOBAL|online-news#.U3Mms4f5R8E | 13:20 |
| chris_99 | sounds iffy to me | 13:20 |
| kanzure | i don't know where it went | 13:23 |
| fenn | server crashed or whatever | 13:23 |
| kanzure | that's not a good reason | 13:26 |
| fenn | wow i can't even figure out what they're trying to say in that "consciousness" article, the mashed metaphors are so bad | 13:26 |
| fenn | the paper itself is even worse | 13:31 |
| fenn | "how not to design a diagram" http://www.ploscompbiol.org/article/fetchObject.action?uri=info:doi/10.1371/journal.pcbi.1003588.g021&representation=PNG_M | 13:31 |
| chris_99 | goodness only knows | 13:34 |
| fenn | it only makes sense if you're conscious, us zombies can't handle it since we're made out of meat, not ineffable quales | 13:35 |
| chris_99 | haha | 13:35 |
| kanzure | ineffable ineffness | 13:35 |
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| fenn | "This kit contains all hard to find materials that you need to make your own screen-printed electroluminescent display." https://sites.google.com/site/elen4193/kits/el | 13:45 |
| fenn | d'eaux. out of stock | 13:46 |
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| fenn | maybe i can re-use the ITO coating from a LCD display like from a TI graphing calculator | 13:54 |
| fenn | SrB4O7(F): Eu 370 nm emission | 14:06 |
| fenn | BaSi2O5: Pb 351 nm emission | 14:06 |
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| fenn | you could use an EL grid to do direct stereolithography or focus with a fresnel lens (or mirrors or a big regular lens) | 14:07 |
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| fenn | simon field made some Eu doped phosphors so it's definitely bootstrappable if you can get the elements | 14:09 |
| fenn | has anyone here actually physically handled graphene? | 14:11 |
| fenn | or other conductive polymers | 14:11 |
| kanzure | probably gene_hacker | 14:17 |
| fenn | http://sci-toys.com/scitoys/scitoys/light/invisible/invisible.html#Kryptonite "strontium magnesium aluminate, doped with the rare earth lanthanides europium and dysprosium" | 14:23 |
| kanzure | dysprosium | 14:24 |
| fenn | obviously this particular phosphor would make a poor display/3d print emitter because its decay half life is 6 hours | 14:24 |
| fenn | i wonder how slow a cellphone display + fresnel lens would be for 3d printing | 14:32 |
| kanzure | show me an acceptable python api for cad things | 14:32 |
| kanzure | was the pythonocc one okay? | 14:33 |
| fenn | i don't remember | 14:33 |
| fenn | it had a lot of swig-isms | 14:34 |
| kanzure | https://github.com/tpaviot/pythonocc/tree/master/src/examples | 14:34 |
| kanzure | https://github.com/tpaviot/pythonocc/blob/master/src/examples/PAF/test_gears_sympy.py | 14:34 |
| kanzure | oh man that blows | 14:34 |
| kanzure | https://github.com/tpaviot/pythonocc/blob/master/doc/tutorials/geometry_modeling_and_visualization/Step3_Boolean/Step3_2.py | 14:35 |
| fenn | gear1 = my_context.prim_operations.MakeCylinderPntVecRH( my_pnt1, my_vec1, p.R1, p.H1, p.Angle1, name="Gear1", show=True ) | 14:36 |
| kanzure | time to commit suicide | 14:36 |
| fenn | i'm generally not a fan of camel case | 14:36 |
| kanzure | PntVecRH | 14:36 |
| fenn | i guess there's some C++ convention that says classes are supposed to be upper camelcase | 14:36 |
| kanzure | what about in openscad? | 14:37 |
| fenn | so the PntVecRH is because he isn't using named arguments; there's a separate constructor for each different way of specifying the cylinder | 14:38 |
| fenn | i think a class should be smart enough to figure out cylinder(r=1, h=2, name='Gear1') | 14:38 |
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| fenn | and have sensible default parameters | 14:40 |
| fenn | you shouldn't have to specify if all on one line. foo=cylinder(); foo.move([1,2,3]); foo.rotate([0,0,1]) | 14:41 |
| fenn | i don't get why he's separating things into prim_operations and basic_operations | 14:43 |
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| fenn | i guess "from sympy import *" lets you do stuff like "Rel1 = a / ( 1 + r )" | 14:45 |
| fenn | that's actually pretty cool | 14:45 |
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| fenn | but that's getting ahead of ourselves | 14:46 |
| fenn | uh, is there an existing API that we should be following instead of coming up with one from scratch? | 14:46 |
| fenn | not necessarily brl-cad but general geometry stuff | 14:47 |
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| fenn | .title http://docs.sympy.org/dev/modules/geometry.html | 14:49 |
| yoleaux | SymPy 0.7.5-git documentation | 14:49 |
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| fenn | ok sympy is not very complete | 14:53 |
| fenn | i'm not to keen on the "spin" method either | 14:55 |
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| fenn | there was a toy 3d framework for python, "visual python" or "VPython" or "python-visual" that had a decent API; http://vpython.org/contents/docs/cylinder.html | 15:01 |
| fenn | box() is a lot easier to remember than which one of those ARBN things from brlcad you should be using | 15:03 |
| fenn | the ARB* and RPP and so on should still be made available, but not the first priority and definitely not used in introductory tutorials | 15:04 |
| fenn | this pretty much takes care of handling user input to create 3D geometry, but what about importing from existing files through brl-cad? | 15:08 |
| fenn | like if you open a .g or .step file, how does it get translated into box() objects | 15:08 |
| fenn | and should we aim to save the parsed tree as a python source code file? | 15:10 |
| fenn | what is the serialization format | 15:10 |
| kanzure | ok | 15:11 |
| kanzure | aww autodesk bought http://circuits.io/ ? | 15:13 |
| fenn | this is for map geometry http://geojson.org/geojson-spec.html perhaps a point of inspiration | 15:13 |
| fenn | maybe a json cad format is feature creep | 15:13 |
| kanzure | to appease the openscad people, python is fine | 15:13 |
| kanzure | to appease the brlcad people, brlcad file formats are fine | 15:14 |
| fenn | i really liked this when i read it many years ago http://www.bruno.postle.net/older-stuff/2003/draft/ | 15:14 |
| fenn | how do openscad people use python? | 15:16 |
| fenn | is it "write only"? | 15:16 |
| kanzure | they don't use python | 15:17 |
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| kanzure | the openscad people are mostly unaware of python or other languages really | 15:17 |
| fenn | so why bring them up | 15:17 |
| kanzure | because i don't want to be damned to 20 years of openscad files | 15:18 |
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| fenn | too late; once a format gets traction you're stuck with it | 15:18 |
| fenn | the only way out is conversion tools | 15:18 |
| kanzure | fuck that | 15:19 |
| fenn | this is why i want to utilize an existing geometry api rather than roll my own | 15:19 |
| fenn | i like the CSG operator overloading here https://github.com/SolidCode/SolidPython | 15:22 |
| fenn | c = cylinder( r=10, h=5) + cylinder( r=2, h=30) | 15:22 |
| fenn | i did something like this https://github.com/SolidCode/SolidPython/blob/master/solid/screw_thread.py http://fennetic.net/irc/polar_screw_thread.png | 15:27 |
| kanzure | that autodesk printer is supposed to be $5k and use dlp | 15:28 |
| kanzure | marketing materials don't say dlp | 15:28 |
| kanzure | "We are here with Autodesk so just trust me 😃" fuck them | 15:28 |
| fenn | what autodesk printer and why should i care | 15:29 |
| kanzure | you should care because they are busy validating a market for you | 15:29 |
| fenn | i don't care about markets | 15:29 |
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| fenn | i just want capability | 15:29 |
| kanzure | markets are what pay you | 15:30 |
| fenn | autodesk is just a competitor with more clout and lawyers than i have | 15:30 |
| kanzure | that doesn't matter | 15:31 |
| kanzure | they're not a competitor anyway | 15:31 |
| fenn | http://formlabs.com/products/form-1/ is "only" $3k | 15:32 |
| kanzure | i wonder why | 15:32 |
| fenn | or did they get bought by autodesk or something | 15:32 |
| fenn | because it looks like an apple product | 15:32 |
| kanzure | but i mean, uh | 15:32 |
| kanzure | dlp does't cost $3k | 15:32 |
| fenn | i have no idea what it costs | 15:32 |
| kanzure | well, what are the primary components? DMD, maybe a few lenses, maybe a few diodes, some crappy microcontroller | 15:33 |
| kanzure | oh.. "A high precision optical system directs a laser across a tank of liquid resin, solidifying layers as thin as 25 microns. The build platform pulls your model upwards, out of the tank." | 15:33 |
| kanzure | yeah that doesn't sound expensive at all | 15:34 |
| fenn | when i looked into it last it was hard to get the DLP component by itself | 15:34 |
| fenn | so the cost of a projector basically | 15:34 |
| kanzure | a projector is not $3k these days | 15:34 |
| fenn | oh is formlabs SLA? | 15:34 |
| fenn | like, vector control | 15:34 |
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| fenn | .title http://georgehart.com/rp/FCC.html | 15:38 |
| yoleaux | Face-centered Cubic Constructions (Rhombic Dodecahedra) | 15:38 |
| fenn | needs more magnets | 15:38 |
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| kanzure | 300 micron features isn't that bad | 15:41 |
| fenn | beyond feature size is surface roughness, they are related but misunderstood | 15:42 |
| fenn | you could have a surface with 150 micron finish and 300 micron feature size | 15:43 |
| fenn | or you could have a surface with 2 micron finish and 300 micron feature size | 15:43 |
| fenn | reprap has attacked this by soaking printed parts in solvent | 15:43 |
| fenn | it seems to me that solvent would cause more "wear" on the point bits than the concave bits | 15:44 |
| fenn | pointy* | 15:44 |
| kanzure | was not impressed by https://github.com/SolidCode/SolidPython/blob/master/solid/screw_thread.py | 15:47 |
| fenn | wow so DLP projectors are selling for $100-200 used now | 15:49 |
| fenn | some as low as $50 | 15:49 |
| kanzure | i think the one i bought nmz787 was $70 | 15:50 |
| kanzure | or something | 15:50 |
| fenn | nmz787: what do you think about cellphone screen + fresnel lens as a 3d printer? | 15:50 |
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| kanzure | he doesn't actually use irc anymore | 15:57 |
| kanzure | busy doing intel things or w/e | 15:58 |
| kanzure | show me a better api | 16:01 |
| kanzure | use autodesk's or solidwork's if necessary | 16:01 |
| fenn | did you look at visual python? | 16:01 |
| kanzure | a few years ago | 16:02 |
| kanzure | meh http://vpython.org/contents/bounce_example.html | 16:02 |
| kanzure | where's all the wire topology walking stuff | 16:03 |
| fenn | http://vpython.org/contents/docs/box.html | 16:03 |
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| fenn | wire topology what? | 16:03 |
| fenn | oh you are talking about like OCC's FaceExplorer crap | 16:04 |
| fenn | TopExp_Explorer | 16:05 |
| fenn | let's just do the basics for now | 16:05 |
| fenn | i could never get that TopoDS stuff to work anyway | 16:07 |
| fenn | it's hard to learn how something is supposed to work when it crashes 50% of the time | 16:08 |
| fenn | so, one way to do it would be method calls to a union object | 16:09 |
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| fenn | c = cylinder(r=10, h=5) + cylinder(r=2, h=30); parting_line = edge(c.elements[0], c.elements[1]) | 16:10 |
| fenn | find_edge | 16:11 |
| fenn | i dunno | 16:11 |
| fenn | apt is a very old language for describing that sort of operation: http://www.archivist.info/apt/aptos/apt360/doc/manual/index.html | 16:13 |
| fenn | it worked sort of like driving directions, "go forward until you hit this wall, turn right, take a left at the bevel" | 16:14 |
| fenn | "visual APT" not to be confused with other programs http://sourceforge.net/projects/vapt/ | 16:20 |
| fenn | i'm not seriously suggesting using this, since it's written in fortran with huge numbers of GOTO statements and everyone involved is long dead | 16:21 |
| fenn | but the language spec probably contains some wisdom of the ancients | 16:22 |
| fenn | back when people knew math | 16:22 |
| kanzure | what about the autolisp api | 16:32 |
| kanzure | http://www.afralisp.net/reference/autocad-apis.php | 16:34 |
| kanzure | oh brother "AcDbObjectPointer<AcDbBlockReference> pRef(_Id,AcDb::kForRead);" | 16:34 |
| kanzure | .title http://ronleigh.com/autolisp/ahistory.htm | 16:35 |
| yoleaux | History of AutoLISP | 16:35 |
| kanzure | "Release 2 (Version 1.2) -- April, 1983 Price was $1000. The optional dimensioning add-on cost an extra $250." | 16:36 |
| kanzure | "Added non-continuous linetypes, user-named layers, dragging, an isometric grid, and attributes as well as the commands SAVE, VSLIDE, MSLIDE, OSNAP, and MIRROR." | 16:36 |
| kanzure | ah yes, the OSNAP command | 16:36 |
| kanzure | .title https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8QbFguhEjhQ | 16:43 |
| yoleaux | Free AutoCAD Tutorial - AutoLISP to create 3d Honda Jazz | 16:43 |
| kanzure | is this as stupid as i think it is? | 16:44 |
| kanzure | .title https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7A3jeDVcrIs | 16:44 |
| yoleaux | First pacman game for AutoCAD (using Lisp programming) | 16:44 |
| kanzure | this is also pretty dumb: | 16:45 |
| kanzure | .title https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BmHu3EosT-s | 16:45 |
| yoleaux | AutoCAD Transformer !! | 16:45 |
| kanzure | what's the point if you don't actually show off your lisp | 16:45 |
| kanzure | here's an old version of solidworks http://zwcad.com.tw/nick/3D/ and some windows software http://zwcad.com.tw/nick/MS-soft/ and some autolisp stuff http://zwcad.com.tw/nick/V-LISP/ http://zwcad.com.tw/nick/lisp/ | 16:58 |
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| kanzure | oh i see, autolisp was replaced in r15 with visual lisp | 17:04 |
| kanzure | .title http://ephemeralvalue.com/?s=makepy | 17:17 |
| yoleaux | Search results for 'makepy' | 17:17 |
| kanzure | oops wrong page | 17:17 |
| kanzure | should have been http://ephemeralvalue.com/2007/08/13/using-python-with-the-solidworks-api/ | 17:17 |
| kanzure | https://pypi.python.org/pypi/pyautocad | 17:18 |
| kanzure | "acad.model.AddLine(p1, p2)" man is everyone braindead | 17:18 |
| kanzure | https://github.com/reclosedev/pyautocad/tree/master/examples | 17:18 |
| kanzure | In [3]: compare_version("7.24.1") | 17:38 |
| kanzure | Out[3]: 1 | 17:38 |
| kanzure | what is that even supposed to mean >:( | 17:38 |
| fenn | so i thought we were discussing the python-brlcad api, not autolisp | 17:41 |
| fenn | and anyway i hear autolisp sucks | 17:42 |
| kanzure | i was hoping that someone would have figured out a sane and rational cad api | 17:45 |
| kanzure | how hard could it be? they are just shapes | 17:45 |
| kanzure | toddlers are supposed to do this | 17:45 |
| kanzure | opencascade don't have it; autocad's api is stuff like AddLine and AddCircle; solidworks is Make2DBoxThingPnt... | 17:45 |
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| ParahSailin | kanzure: do i see a regex for parsing xml in there? | 17:46 |
| fenn | what do stuff like ACIS and parasolid use | 17:47 |
| kanzure | ParahSailin: where? | 17:49 |
| ParahSailin | https://github.com/reclosedev/pyautocad/blob/master/examples/cable_list_from_schemes.py | 17:50 |
| kanzure | https://github.com/kanzure/python-brlcad/pull/29 | 17:51 |
| kanzure | fenn: brlcad is still a little weird to me; why is there librt/db_inmem.c e.g. why is an in-memory cad database explicitly tied into raytracing.. wouldn't that be useful even if you weren't raytracing? | 18:09 |
| kanzure | "Dixon also explained his company’s big bet on wallet service Coinbase, which he likened to a Gmail for bitcoin" uh... | 18:12 |
| dingo | haha | 18:15 |
| dingo | thats the last thing i want | 18:15 |
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| kanzure | ctypes is weird: import brlcad._bindings.librt as librt; dbi = librt.db_open_inmem(); | 18:21 |
| kanzure | dbi._type_._fields_ says dbi_version is a field of this struct | 18:22 |
| kanzure | but you access it like this: dbi.contents.dbi_version | 18:22 |
| dingo | well you'd have to look at their bindings, but if i had to guess, its actual "value" is probobly just a pointer, so you wouldn't want that, you want what it points to, so content is some binder for that | 18:23 |
| dingo | -> vs . or whatever | 18:23 |
| kanzure | unfortunately i'm the person who wrote the bindings | 18:24 |
| dingo | lol | 18:24 |
| dingo | then you are subject matter expert :-) | 18:24 |
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| kanzure | most things in libwdb are mk_* but for some reason there's make_hole? | 18:29 |
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| fenn | oh, " | 18:39 |
| fenn | Autodesk Announces 'Spark' the 'Android of 3D Printing' & Their Very Own 3D Printer | 18:39 |
| * fenn catches up to 5 hours ago | 18:40 | |
| fenn | i'm running an "android mini pc" which is a gumstix sized thingy with an HDMI output port and some USB ports and a microSD card slot | 18:42 |
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| heath | jrayhawk: ping | 18:46 |
| fenn | it occurs to me that this would drive a DLP projector quite nicely, but there are no android 3d DLP printing apps as far as i can see (lots of reprap controllers and "3d printer news" apps but nothing that shows slices for a defined period of time and controls motors) | 18:47 |
| kanzure | iirc there's an android-specific pocket projector thing | 18:49 |
| fenn | sure, there's that too | 18:49 |
| fenn | i had one that took mini-hdmi input | 18:50 |
| fenn | i like the idea of "put your phone in this frame, plug in the usb, and you have a 3d printer" | 18:51 |
| fenn | even if it's slow it's better than having no printer | 18:52 |
| fenn | pico projectors are ~$200 which adds significantly to the cost | 18:52 |
| fenn | i think i can design one that folds flat | 18:54 |
| kanzure | i don't see a way to serialize this in-memory wdb dbp_i** | 18:54 |
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| kanzure | guh? bu_vls_printf(&cmd, "wdb_open %s inmem [get_dbip]", MGED_INMEM_NAME); | 19:00 |
| kanzure | Tcl_AppendResult(interpreter, bu_vls_addr(&msg), (char *)NULL); | 19:00 |
| kanzure | i am tired of poorly designed crap | 19:02 |
| kanzure | int db_dump(struct rt_wdb *wdbp, struct db_i *dbip) /* output */ /* iput */ | 19:10 |
| kanzure | *input | 19:10 |
| kanzure | there we go | 19:10 |
| kanzure | http://pub5.di.fm/di_progressive_aac?type=.flv is okay at the moment | 19:11 |
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| kanzure | .g gareth jenkins | 19:19 |
| yoleaux | http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gareth_Jenkins | 19:19 |
| kanzure | hrm that doesn't sound right | 19:19 |
| kanzure | i mean this one: gjenkins971@gmail.com | 19:19 |
| fenn | fluorescent molecules like curcumin absorb UV and emit green/yellow/whatever so can they be used as both UV absorbing dye and colorful pigment? | 19:25 |
| fenn | you need a small amount of UV absorber to control light penetration depth into the resin bath | 19:25 |
| fenn | there are some cheap visible light cure resins used for ... making keychains or something, anyway they are also full UV transparent to ensure rapid curing all the way through | 19:26 |
| fenn | it might be the same stuff used for conformal coating circuit boards | 19:26 |
| fenn | http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conformal_coating#UV_curing_UV_Conformal_coatings | 19:27 |
| fenn | i bring this up because we have a bit of a procurement problem with pre-made photo cure resin | 19:28 |
| kanzure | fenn, what was wrong with this? | 19:30 |
| kanzure | https://github.com/kanzure/python-brlcad/blob/master/examples/wdb_example.py | 19:30 |
| fenn | i don't want to rely exclusively on bucktown polymers, and apparently they only sell by the gallon now ($175/gal) | 19:30 |
| kanzure | https://github.com/kanzure/python-brlcad/blob/master/brlcad/wdb.py | 19:30 |
| fenn | 470nm to IR cured resins are available by special order in larger volumes (40-200Kg+) | 19:31 |
| fenn | kanzure: too many words, bizarre "interact with database" semantics (why are the names in quotes instead of just python objects?) | 19:34 |
| kanzure | the names? | 19:34 |
| fenn | '"ball.s"' '"box.s"' | 19:34 |
| kanzure | how else are you going to pass a string? | 19:35 |
| fenn | why are you passing a string at all | 19:35 |
| kanzure | 'cause the api asks for it | 19:35 |
| fenn | it should be ball = brlfoo.sphere(center=(1, 2, 3), radius=0.75) | 19:35 |
| kanzure | some string, any value | 19:35 |
| fenn | ok i can't take this digital imported anymore | 19:36 |
| kanzure | quality varies dramatically | 19:36 |
| fenn | what does "is_region=True" do? | 19:38 |
| fenn | why is "hole" a primitive and what shape is it? (cylinder i guess?) | 19:40 |
| fenn | or is it shaped like the box + ball union? | 19:40 |
| fenn | i guess you're cutting a cylinder out of the box + ball union | 19:41 |
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| fenn | bitwise operator overloading makes more sense for CSG than arithmetic operators: http://wiki.python.org/moin/BitwiseOperators | 19:51 |
| fenn | i have no idea what bit shift would do, but & | ~ ^ all have well known meanings | 19:51 |
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| fenn | then you get things like &= and operator precedence for free | 19:55 |
| fenn | perhaps arithmetic operators could be used for transformations, like translation or scaling | 19:57 |
| fenn | (cube(1) + [1,0,0])*5 | 19:58 |
| kanzure | "Survivability/Lethality Analysis Directorate, ARL" | 19:58 |
| fenn | different thing from (cube(1)*5 + [1,0,0]*5) | 19:58 |
| fenn | oh wait no they're the same | 19:59 |
| fenn | it's rotation that's not commutative | 19:59 |
| fenn | since rotation takes 2 arguments it doesn't fit into the arithmetic operator scheme | 20:00 |
| kanzure | oh that's right, you can't extrude a sketch in brlcad | 20:03 |
| kanzure | argh | 20:07 |
| fenn | how do you extrude something then? | 20:07 |
| kanzure | you can only extrude surfaces, but a sketch isn't a surface | 20:08 |
| fenn | and there's no way to "make it so"? | 20:08 |
| kanzure | this is how i expect to cad under normal circumstances: http://www.freecadweb.org/wiki/index.php?title=PartDesign_Bearingholder_Tutorial_II | 20:08 |
| kanzure | "Create a new part in the PartDesign workbench. Rename the Body that is created by default to Skeleton. This Body is probably activated already, which you can see by the blue background colour in the feature tree. Create a new sketch on the YZ plane containing the outline of the shaft, bearing and sealing rings. After finishing the sketch, make a revolution feature from it. This skeleton feature will later be used to reference the real ... | 20:08 |
| kanzure | ... geometry to it. This means that if you want to change any dimensions, all you need to do is adjust the skeleton feature's dimensions and the rest of the part will update accordingly." | 20:09 |
| fenn | i've seen that part everywhere | 20:09 |
| kanzure | i don't want to have to think about how many spheres and in what variations it takes to approximate my base sketch | 20:09 |
| fenn | there aren't any spheres in that part | 20:09 |
| kanzure | whatever | 20:10 |
| heath | the vision2+ is nice, hope we can get the crazyflie to operate similarly | 20:10 |
| kanzure | circles. | 20:10 |
| heath | the vision2 makes all your papers go flying around the living room... if that's where you happen to be flying it | 20:11 |
| heath | ..and you have loose papers scattered on a table | 20:11 |
| heath | another random tidbit of info, per usual | 20:11 |
| heath | jrayhawk: when you get time, i messaged you privately about gnusha | 20:12 |
| heath | login stuff | 20:12 |
| fenn | kanzure: uh, that sort of workflow is probably not going to work in brlcad | 20:13 |
| fenn | " You don't want that to happen to your model, especially after putting on a lot of fillets! | 20:15 |
| fenn | because OCC operations have side effects? | 20:15 |
| fenn | i mean why wouldnt you be able to just go back and add the draft | 20:15 |
| kanzure | huh? | 20:18 |
| kanzure | freecad definitely lets you go back and edit the sketch | 20:18 |
| kanzure | after extrusion | 20:18 |
| fenn | ok cool | 20:18 |
| kanzure | oh, but it crashes if you press too many buttons about that (i was just trying it) | 20:18 |
| fenn | does freecad actually work now? if so why are we messing around with brlcad | 20:18 |
| kanzure | because opencascade is intractable | 20:18 |
| fenn | (aside, the real reason cast parts have rounded edges is so the crystallization planes don't line up and create internal stress fractures as the part cools) | 20:20 |
| kanzure | .title https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s9IdZ2pI5dA&t=130s | 20:20 |
| yoleaux | Hybrid ( Additive and Subtractive manufacturing) machine by DMG Mori | 20:20 |
| kanzure | wtf? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s9IdZ2pI5dA&t=3m39s | 20:22 |
| fenn | that thing has all the toys | 20:24 |
| kanzure | it has two separate tool changer things | 20:24 |
| kanzure | and they have doors | 20:24 |
| kanzure | how adorable | 20:24 |
| fenn | what no fillets | 20:24 |
| kanzure | "Warning: any movement of said machine will trigger NSA alert" | 20:25 |
| kanzure | oh yeah, you missed that one | 20:26 |
| kanzure | apparently they do that now | 20:26 |
| kanzure | but with accelerometers/gyros that cause vendor-induced lock-up in the cnc machine | 20:26 |
| kanzure | so that they can monetize you moving it across the shop floor | 20:27 |
| not_un | yow | 20:27 |
| not_un | that's some cory doctorow shit | 20:27 |
| fenn | the metal dust goes in a straight line because of inertia i guess | 20:28 |
| fenn | did you see the thing about cheap titanium powder | 20:29 |
| fenn | someone (finally) did the process where you go straight from rutile to titanium dust by electrolysis, instead of all the ridiculous TiCl sponge melt remelt remelt remelt billet stuff | 20:30 |
| fenn | so expect to see a lot more titanium in the future | 20:30 |
| not_un | 3d metamaterial printer | 20:31 |
| fenn | i wish they had a more interesting demo part | 20:31 |
| fenn | also i think i'd cover my exposed precision ground metallic surfaces before blasting melted metal everywhere | 20:32 |
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| fenn | can i run android 2.1 .apk's on android 4.x? | 20:40 |
| kanzure | yes | 20:51 |
| fenn | why are so many apps designed for 4.x instead of 2.x? | 20:52 |
| kanzure | unless that apk was device-specific | 20:52 |
| kanzure | because developers have lost their 2.x phones or they died | 20:52 |
| fenn | i can't run half of the things in f-droid | 20:52 |
| kanzure | so now they only have 4.x phones, and they don't want to bother testing on a bajillion devices | 20:52 |
| fenn | there is only one browser available for 2.x and it blows | 20:53 |
| kanzure | also, there are android 4.0 features that are not available in 2.x | 20:53 |
| fenn | sure but i doubt they are really that important for these apps | 20:53 |
| kanzure | you can use smali and baksmali to rip it apart and rewrite those apps to be 2.x-compatible if you'd like | 20:54 |
| kanzure | sometimes this can be achieved by just editing the xml manifest file | 20:54 |
| fenn | does it make sense to install 4.0 on a device that originally shipped with 2.1 (is that even possible?) | 20:55 |
| kanzure | it's only possible if you have root and a bootloader or something | 20:55 |
| kanzure | you might have to use an exploit | 20:56 |
| kanzure | cyanogenmod often has information about which devices are capable of running 4.0 stuff | 20:56 |
| fenn | i wish manufacturers would use actual model numbers for their products | 20:56 |
| kanzure | (cyanogenmod 10 compatibility is a good proxy for android 4.x compatibility) | 20:56 |
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| fenn | is cyanogen not android? | 20:57 |
| fenn | is this just some trademark crap | 20:58 |
| kanzure | they compile their own kernels and lots of custom software, but the kernels are derivative of android | 20:58 |
| fenn | "roboweasel" | 20:58 |
| kanzure | also they include lots of nifty developer things | 20:58 |
| fenn | what's the purpose of the custom kernels? | 20:58 |
| kanzure | and "advanced" options that should have been available in the factory default software, except weren't, because they hate users | 20:59 |
| kanzure | oh, just enabling/disabling different device features n' stuff | 20:59 |
| kanzure | you can't always wait for google to merge upstream linux kernel stuff into the android kernel | 20:59 |
| kanzure | because they have a long release cycle too | 20:59 |
| fenn | eh, i just want the device to be able to do what it's supposed to do | 20:59 |
| fenn | i don't care about advanced linux kernel features | 21:00 |
| kanzure | cyanogenmod is worth it | 21:00 |
| fenn | so cyanogen only lists the LCD screen nook tablets | 21:00 |
| fenn | i'm sort of confused about what i'm actually running | 21:01 |
| fenn | http://download.doozan.com/nook/NookManager-0.5.0.zip with barnes and noble firmware 1.2 | 21:03 |
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| fenn | can i install a new kernel independently of "android"? | 21:08 |
| kanzure | if you use an okay bootloader, i believe the answer is yes | 21:08 |
| fenn | are android users expected to install new versions of android on their phone or is this a hacker thing? | 21:10 |
| kanzure | hacker thing | 21:10 |
| fenn | so there's literally no manufacturer-sanctioned upgrade path | 21:10 |
| kanzure | there's "OTA" (over the air) updates but mostly manufacturers don't do it | 21:11 |
| fenn | i can understand not supporting a product, but for the entire industry to be "throwaway" is kinda nuts | 21:11 |
| kanzure | malware is everywhere | 21:12 |
| fenn | uh, so? | 21:12 |
| not_un | yeah, samsung would rather churn you into an S5 rather than updating the s4 | 21:12 |
| not_un | someone made an elegant graph illustrating this point | 21:13 |
| fenn | $$++ >> $$-- | 21:13 |
| fenn | much dollar. very elegant. | 21:13 |
| not_un | jellybean 4.1 came out in the first 6 months of the galaxy sii, but didn't become available OTA for another, like... 8 months? | 21:13 |
| not_un | or buy a s3, knucklehead | 21:14 |
| kanzure | "very elegant" is not dogespeak | 21:14 |
| fenn | "so easy." | 21:14 |
| fenn | .tr en doge "very elegant" | 21:15 |
| yoleaux | fenn: Sorry, that command (.tr) crashed. | 21:15 |
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| fenn | so i got a "lapdock" today, it's pretty well made, and very thin | 21:15 |
| fenn | the keyboard actually has the keys in the right places | 21:16 |
| fenn | waiting on micro-HDMI adapter | 21:16 |
| fenn | i had this epiphany that finally interfaces are small enough that you can build a laptop out of interchangeable parts with nothing but velcro and usb cables | 21:17 |
| fenn | but it generalizes to wearable computing because the components are small enough and light enough to wear comfortably | 21:18 |
| fenn | screen vs glasses then becomes a matter of choice | 21:18 |
| fenn | software version: "unavailable" wtf is that | 21:22 |
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| kanzure | ##### #### ### #### | 21:59 |
| kanzure | # # # # # # | 21:59 |
| kanzure | # ## #### #### # # # # # | 21:59 |
| kanzure | #### # # # # # # # ##### # # | 21:59 |
| kanzure | # # #### #### # # # # # | 21:59 |
| kanzure | # # # # # # # # # ## ## ## | 21:59 |
| kanzure | # # #### #### ### # # #### ## ## ## | 21:59 |
| kanzure | they could do better | 22:00 |
| Viper168 | who is cad | 22:02 |
| Viper168 | did he get arrested too? | 22:02 |
| Viper168 | like mitnik | 22:02 |
| * bkero waves from Bangalore | 22:05 | |
| not_un | fenn, holy fuck | 22:06 |
| not_un | COMPUVEST | 22:06 |
| delinquentme | Are you guys using VPNs? | 22:06 |
| FourFire | delinquentme, no | 22:06 |
| FourFire | fenn, what sort of performance are you looking at? | 22:07 |
| juri_ | implicitcad! | 22:08 |
| FourFire | I've come to the realization that if you've got a wall to plug into, you can essentially copy every other aspect of a laptop using desktop parts in a SFF build | 22:08 |
| FourFire | I call it a "laptop replacement" | 22:08 |
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| fenn | yes the lack of PCIe for ARM processors makes getting a good GPU difficult if not impossible | 22:14 |
| fenn | they often have 3d coprocessors but there's no way to access them because it's all locked up under NDA | 22:14 |
| catern | http://www.theonion.com/articles/pharmaceutical-industry-reeling-as-more-moms-makin,36028/ | 22:14 |
| fenn | i wish | 22:15 |
| fenn | if we could get prople to do this, polio would be dead in no time | 22:17 |
| fenn | prple people | 22:17 |
| xmj | mmm | 22:17 |
| xmj | anyone here work for google europe? | 22:17 |
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| kanzure | "The clean room contains the steppers for photolithography, etching, cleaning, doping and dicing machines. All these devices are extremely precise and thus extremely expensive. Prices for most common pieces of equipment for the processing of 300 mm wafers range from $700,000 to upwards of $4,000,000 each with a few pieces of equipment reaching as high as $50,000,000 each (e.g. steppers)." | 22:22 |
| kanzure | haha "it's expensive because it's precise" | 22:22 |
| kanzure | "Typically an advance in chip-making technology requires a completely new fab to be built. In the past, the equipment to outfit a fab was not terribly expensive and there were a huge number of smaller fabs producing chips in small quantities. However, the cost of the most up-to-date equipment has since grown to the point where a new fab can cost several billion dollars." | 22:23 |
| kanzure | i don't understand the source of the cost inflation | 22:23 |
| not_un | really | 22:23 |
| not_un | you don't understand it? | 22:23 |
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| not_un | I remember seeing a story somewhere about a scientific equipment company that was making a very nice SEM for like 40k | 22:24 |
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| not_un | and the sales rep said they had such trouble selling them | 22:24 |
| not_un | so... | 22:24 |
| not_un | they quadrupled the price | 22:24 |
| not_un | and labs were snapping them up left and right | 22:24 |
| not_un | there are only a few major fabricators | 22:25 |
| kanzure | that's not an explanation | 22:26 |
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| not_un | you're right, I just wanted to mention it | 22:26 |
| kanzure | who are | 22:27 |
| kanzure | you | 22:27 |
| not_un | I DONT KNOW | 22:27 |
| cluckj | TIL handling tinier shit requires more money | 22:28 |
| cluckj | I wonder if it's proportional | 22:28 |
| kanzure | the actual cost is probably the same | 22:28 |
| kanzure | i think that all the money being dumped into bitcoin asic mining equipment could be shifted to be dumped into cheap asic fabrication equipment | 22:29 |
| not_un | I guess it's probably the value of the machinery | 22:29 |
| not_un | rather than material costs | 22:29 |
| not_un | Intel needs to pay 400 million for a new chip fab | 22:29 |
| kanzure | it's probably because the people building the fabs are morons and don't know that they have arranged for perverse incentives in the market | 22:29 |
| not_un | but stands to make 8 billion or w/e | 22:29 |
| not_un | ah | 22:30 |
| ParahSailin | 22nm is incredibly hard | 22:30 |
| kanzure | it's not like they throw their engineers at the problem of procurement | 22:30 |
| ParahSailin | nobody knows how the fuck they do lithography, its all top secret proprietary tech | 22:30 |
| juri_ | we have a SEM at HacDC. | 22:30 |
| ParahSailin | its so low below the diffraction limit in like vacuum uv/soft xray etc | 22:31 |
| kanzure | i don't think i need 22nm | 22:31 |
| fenn | electron laser holograms | 22:31 |
| * fenn throws words around | 22:31 | |
| cluckj | purple monkey dishwasher | 22:32 |
| ParahSailin | ohh, i know, fib | 22:32 |
| kanzure | weird thing is that asics are easier to build than fpgas or gpus | 22:32 |
| fenn | but seriously you can make a coherent electron beam and flash the whole chip at once | 22:32 |
| ParahSailin | fenn: raster is slow | 22:32 |
| fenn | fib would take for ever | 22:32 |
| ParahSailin | yeah fib im totally joking | 22:32 |
| fenn | hologram isn't raster, hence the "holo" part | 22:33 |
| ParahSailin | electron beam thats not raster? | 22:33 |
| fenn | weird isn't it | 22:33 |
| kanzure | optical holography exists, you know | 22:34 |
| fenn | we just established that 22nm was below the diffraction limit | 22:34 |
| fenn | of optics | 22:34 |
| fenn | of visible light optics | 22:34 |
| fenn | blergh | 22:34 |
| cluckj | tiny elephants with tiny paintbrushes | 22:34 |
| fenn | x-rays are just electron beam fluorescence | 22:35 |
| fenn | actually contact lithography is not a bad idea | 22:35 |
| fenn | etch an elephant hide with a FIB and use it as a stamp | 22:35 |
| cluckj | elephants sitting on silicon wafers | 22:36 |
| cluckj | a trillion dollar industry | 22:36 |
| fenn | hundred billion, don't get ahead of yourself | 22:36 |
| cluckj | I was dreaming big | 22:36 |
| cluckj | they'll be a race for genetically engineering the elephant with the fattest, flattest ass | 22:37 |
| cluckj | we can get in on the ground floor dudes... | 22:37 |
| fenn | a goose that lays a silicon egg | 22:37 |
| cluckj | ugh | 22:38 |
| kanzure | i wonder if "take all the industries with stupid equipment economics, and undercut everything" is a rational strategy | 22:38 |
| fenn | not a long term strategy but who cares | 22:38 |
| fenn | also, patents | 22:39 |
| cluckj | economics isn't entirely rational | 22:39 |
| kanzure | this problem happens everywhere | 22:39 |
| kanzure | where there are fat 10,000% margins over actual costs | 22:39 |
| kanzure | i don't think it's all just patents, because a lot of the equipment is off patent and super old | 22:39 |
| cluckj | that's capitalism 101 | 22:39 |
| fenn | the peachy printer is impressively low-tech http://youtube.com/watch?v=80HsW4HmUes | 22:40 |
| kanzure | well, there's some equipment where this isn't true, though | 22:40 |
| kanzure | so "capitalism 101" is not an adequate explanation | 22:40 |
| fenn | it doesn't even have an "off" switch | 22:40 |
| cluckj | lol | 22:40 |
| fenn | something something supply demand | 22:40 |
| cluckj | extracting surplus value out of every possible space in the supply and demand chain is capitalism 101 | 22:41 |
| fenn | do you even know what those words mean? | 22:41 |
| kanzure | it's not just supply/demand, i think | 22:41 |
| cluckj | yes | 22:42 |
| fenn | the "somebody else's money" effect plays a large part | 22:42 |
| kanzure | the actual "supply" of photolithography equipment in the world totally dwarves any conceivable reason that semiconductor fabs need $20 million photolithography setups (save for the top secret next-next-next generation crap) | 22:42 |
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| cluckj | if companies want to make new chips, they need to buy the setup | 22:44 |
| kanzure | this is all just knowledge arbitration and price markup | 22:44 |
| cluckj | yes | 22:45 |
| fenn | i read various silicon roadmap papers that were doubting 25nm was enough improvement over 40nm to justify the cost, and 40nm devices would end up being higher performance per dollar | 22:45 |
| xmj | when old companies fail to innovate, new market entrants will pop in, have stashes of cash ready to invest, and go with the best | 22:47 |
| kanzure | in some cases, i can imagine that for certain types of capital equipment, the margin has to be that high because of all of the intermediate steps in the chain between different companies | 22:48 |
| kanzure | because i bet that some equipment is not made by a single company, and they are just clueless and don't know how to do it all | 22:48 |
| kanzure | so they outsource different aspects, and in return they end up making a shitty $20,000 product that has a cpu from 1987 | 22:48 |
| kanzure | and a custom keyboard that was designed by a 2 year old because the boss was too busy puking up a hangover | 22:49 |
| kanzure | and in other cases, there's just a handful of 100-500 people in the world that have built that equipment and they know that the industry always outsources to them, so they probably do some knowledge arbitration markup | 22:52 |
| fenn | sandy grew up to run the company after her dad died | 22:52 |
| kanzure | oh yeah, and that | 22:52 |
| not_un | you're right, it's arbitrage | 22:53 |
| fenn | the commodification of something | 22:53 |
| kanzure | a desktop semiconductor fab should be doable | 22:54 |
| kanzure | ("but how can you possibly ever invest enough money to compress a billion dollar fab down that small?") | 22:54 |
| not_un | why would they cut off their own legs | 22:54 |
| fenn | it's the same reason we don't have fusion reactors | 22:54 |
| juri_ | kanzure: workng on it. | 22:54 |
| not_un | part of their price advantage is the relative obscurity of their equipment | 22:55 |
| not_un | UBIQUITOUSLY OBSCURE | 22:55 |
| kanzure | inkjets are also obscure, but they're on practically every desk | 22:55 |
| juri_ | my apologies for my slow typing: carpel tunnel trouble. | 22:56 |
| kanzure | your elbows should be pointing to tau ceti and wolf 359 | 22:56 |
| juri_ | TROUBLE^2. | 22:56 |
| kanzure | this is the only proper way to type | 22:56 |
| juri_ | get fenn to meet with me and mirage at hacdc. | 22:57 |
| kanzure | you're not really compatible | 22:57 |
| juri_ | howso? | 22:58 |
| kanzure | it's too late for me to figure out the exact reasons why | 22:59 |
| juri_ | kk. :) | 22:59 |
| kanzure | anyway, if it is knowledge arbitration, it's dumb because in the vast majority of the cases the equipment is braindead simple (like a thermocycler) | 23:00 |
| juri_ | just built a mendelmax 2. | 23:00 |
| not_un | dumb for who | 23:00 |
| kanzure | it's dumb because it's an obvious farce | 23:01 |
| kanzure | "well, technical equipment is extremely complicated, and therefore..." nope | 23:01 |
| not_un | okay | 23:01 |
| kanzure | "it's extremely complicated" is often one of the reasons used for justifying weird procurement choices | 23:01 |
| not_un | but this stupid creates a market imbalance that pulls capital in | 23:01 |
| not_un | the logic of capital is often different from the logic of human progress | 23:02 |
| not_un | rent seeking and inefficiencies | 23:02 |
| kanzure | that's nice that you're able to recognize that they can get money, but i don't understand why you're mentioning that to me | 23:02 |
| not_un | 99% sure they have the 12 nm dies ready to rock | 23:02 |
| not_un | but only after the 16s are mid-cycle | 23:03 |
| kanzure | i am also not talking about a logic of human progress | 23:03 |
| fenn | guh the comments on this make me so sad http://hackaday.com/2013/10/23/3d-printering-a-call-for-an-open-source-automated-build-platform/ | 23:03 |
| fenn | i was part of the discussions that resulted in that conveyor belt idea | 23:03 |
| fenn | we were talking about using the belt as the Y axis | 23:04 |
| kanzure | "rent seeking" w/ thermocyclers is just totally irrelevant; you can throw some lightbulbs and resistors into a box and bypass their "rent seeking" and then you don't care | 23:07 |
| fenn | thermocycler what | 23:08 |
| fenn | you know about the idaho lightbulb-in-a-box patent | 23:08 |
| kanzure | huh? | 23:08 |
| not_un | and then you violated the contract | 23:08 |
| kanzure | i don't want to confirm or deny knowledge of that patent, fuck you | 23:08 |
| not_un | kanzure when was the last time you took a big dump | 23:09 |
| not_un | like pooped a lot | 23:09 |
| not_un | SOMETIMES CONSTIPATION MAKES PEOPLE GRUMPY | 23:09 |
| kanzure | i hate you and i want you to die | 23:09 |
| not_un | <3 | 23:09 |
| kanzure | telling me "well that's capitalism" is totally boring fuck you | 23:09 |
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| kanzure | "well that's capitalism" is a shitty excuse for not building transhuman tech | 23:10 |
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| kanzure | what are you even doing here | 23:10 |
| cluckj | that light bulb thermocycler does not work so well | 23:10 |
| kanzure | how do you live with yourself | 23:10 |
| kanzure | i am not here for your amusement | 23:10 |
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| fenn | cluckj: i used one for a year and it worked great, better than any other pcr machine | 23:10 |
| not_un | that's what you think | 23:10 |
| kanzure | not_un: please try to be more constructive | 23:10 |
| fenn | i'm talking about the idaho system glass capillary thermocycler | 23:10 |
| cluckj | oh | 23:11 |
| not_un | and one must accurately comprehend the present in order to predict and understand the future | 23:11 |
| cluckj | I'm talking about a 65W bulb and a computer fan | 23:11 |
| fenn | you can build one pretty easily since it's just a light bulb, a fan, and a temperature sensor | 23:11 |
| not_un | I'll lurk moar then | 23:11 |
| kanzure | prediction is lame, just build whatever you want | 23:11 |
| fenn | the diybio thing with a pvc pipe fitting is not a bad design, but the thermal mass of the eppendorf tubes lowers the cycle rate somewhat | 23:11 |
| kanzure | all the other transhumanists are busy "predicting" things, but they haven't done squat in 50 years | 23:12 |
| not_un | "donny, shut the fuck up" | 23:12 |
| ParahSailin | wow, old timey thermocyclers that use heat exchange to cool instead of peltier | 23:12 |
| kanzure | the difference is building equipment | 23:12 |
| ParahSailin | such steampunk | 23:12 |
| fenn | waterpunk? | 23:12 |
| fenn | (seapunk) | 23:12 |
| cluckj | the thermal mass of the entire thing slows the ramp speed down a whole lot | 23:12 |
| kanzure | cpunk.. cypherpunks. | 23:12 |
| fenn | ah well that's easy enough, add kaowool insulation | 23:13 |
| cluckj | it's got to cool down, too | 23:13 |
| fenn | the idaho system had these 3mm glass tubes that you melted shut with a bunsen burner, and your pcr mix was inside | 23:13 |
| fenn | when the reaction finished you broke the tube open and somehow the mix came out, i don't remember | 23:14 |
| cluckj | lol | 23:14 |
| cluckj | that sounds like a better, but more difficult plan | 23:15 |
| fenn | beats buying some special purpose plastic pcr tube that sucks anyway | 23:15 |
| fenn | you don't need any oil or anything because it's sealed in such a small volume | 23:16 |
| cluckj | yeah | 23:16 |
| fenn | i think the idea that it's made of glass scares people | 23:16 |
| fenn | you can drop them from a 1.5m lab bench onto a tile floor, no problem | 23:17 |
| sheena | anyone interested in about 20 1000W lights with shades and ballasts? | 23:17 |
| fenn | gee i wonder what that was for :X | 23:18 |
| cluckj | I put an nmr tube into my hand in ochem by accident | 23:18 |
| cluckj | dropping tubes doesn't worry me..... | 23:18 |
| fenn | i was born with the nmr tube scar | 23:18 |
| sheena | fenn: tomatoes, obviously ;) not my stuff, just came with land a friend bought, trying to get it into the hands of someone who wont throw it out | 23:18 |
| cluckj | my scar is gone now :( | 23:19 |
| fenn | damn now the machines will be able to identify my body, DELETE DELETE | 23:19 |
| cluckj | oh no | 23:20 |
| sheena | who could i pay to put some electrodes in my dog's brain to give me "yay" receptor activation? there's lots of groups doing deep brain stimulation stuff, so there's bound to be one focused on animals | 23:21 |
| fenn | now i am afraid of you | 23:22 |
| kanzure | i suggested she ask in here | 23:22 |
| kanzure | for obvious reasons | 23:22 |
| sheena | cause i have dope growing supplies and a dog? :D | 23:22 |
| fenn | because i know what a tasp is and why it's classified as a weapon | 23:23 |
| sheena | http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tasp ? | 23:24 |
| fenn | http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wirehead_(science_fiction) | 23:24 |
| kanzure | fenn might have ideas about your cheese dispenser too | 23:24 |
| sheena | oh that is fiction tho | 23:25 |
| kanzure | she needs a mechanism to spray the spraycan cheese into doggy mouths, probably hooked up to a microcontroller | 23:25 |
| fenn | just feed them magnethorheological cheese and use a magnetic coil as the actuator | 23:25 |
| sheena | i want it real plz | 23:25 |
| fenn | not as fiction as you might think | 23:25 |
| sheena | ok | 23:26 |
| kanzure | these people probably do it http://animalresearch.ubc.ca/ | 23:26 |
| fenn | http://www.quora.com/Bradley-Voytek/Posts/The-most-unethical-study-Ive-ever-seen | 23:27 |
| ParahSailin | have you considered negative reinforcement | 23:27 |
| ParahSailin | shock therapy is very effective in jellyfish and octopus training | 23:28 |
| ParahSailin | the hardware is very simple | 23:28 |
| not_un | okay, I see we've got some hard accerationists in the channel | 23:28 |
| sheena | shock in dogs is super common | 23:28 |
| sheena | im not too interested tho | 23:29 |
| kanzure | not_un: "accerationists" ? | 23:29 |
| sheena | they only have a couple dogs, if any, .. mostly rats/mice there | 23:29 |
| not_un | making the singularity come about as quickly as possible | 23:30 |
| ParahSailin | you could rig up a vibrator for mechanical reproductive stimulation as positive reinforcement too | 23:30 |
| ParahSailin | hardware much easier than cheese dispenser | 23:30 |
| not_un | beyond what would be considered standard moral/ethical boundaries | 23:30 |
| kanzure | not_un: not necessarily; that would imply some overwhelming focus on "ai" | 23:30 |
| ParahSailin | not_un: no, that is my designated role here | 23:30 |
| not_un | because the greater good of the singularity would outweigh any and all suffering incurred en route | 23:31 |
| kanzure | uh.. no., | 23:31 |
| kanzure | go away before you hurt me | 23:31 |
| kanzure | how could you POSSIBLY have come to that conclusion | 23:31 |
| kanzure | we haven't even mentioned suffering | 23:31 |
| not_un | i only hurt the ones i love | 23:31 |
| kanzure | you're really awful at this thinking thing | 23:31 |
| cluckj | wut | 23:31 |
| kanzure | this is why we can't have nice things man | 23:31 |
| fenn | sheena: yeah i'd just use a RC car transmitter and servo motor | 23:31 |
| kanzure | fenn: have you seen the spray can cheese? | 23:32 |
| fenn | bend a paperclip around the cheese nozzle | 23:32 |
| kanzure | oh | 23:32 |
| kanzure | how would it move? | 23:32 |
| sheena | i cant imagine reproductive stimulation would give me the same behavioural effects as food? | 23:32 |
| ParahSailin | magnitude better! | 23:32 |
| fenn | the servo motors usually have a plastic arm thingy that you can hook a bent wire through | 23:32 |
| sheena | fenn: sure.. but how to mount it to the dog? | 23:32 |
| fenn | i dunno, that's dog stuff, not my specialty | 23:32 |
| sheena | lol | 23:32 |
| cluckj | tape? | 23:32 |
| kanzure | probably a dog hat | 23:32 |
| ParahSailin | without the messiness of an aerosolized food product | 23:32 |
| fenn | a dog hat :) | 23:33 |
| cluckj | yes...dog hat is better | 23:33 |
| fenn | like one of those beer hats | 23:33 |
| not_un | stainless steel surgical posts | 23:33 |
| ParahSailin | a hat like the doge of venice wears | 23:33 |
| kanzure | .g doge of venice | 23:33 |
| yoleaux | http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doge_of_Venice | 23:33 |
| sheena | ParahSailin: i can hypothosize that there would be behavioural drift? harder to get searching/seeking type behaviours if they're being rewarded with repro? | 23:33 |
| cluckj | doge of venice really needs a doge meme on it | 23:34 |
| ParahSailin | there is one | 23:34 |
| fenn | http://interretialia.tumblr.com/post/75040939537/talis-cane-s-venetiarum-such-doge-of-venice | 23:34 |
| cluckj | excellent | 23:34 |
| -!- mode/##hplusroadmap [+o kanzure] by ChanServ | 23:34 | |
| -!- mode/##hplusroadmap [+o ParahSailin] by kanzure | 23:35 | |
| cluckj | yesssss | 23:35 |
| -!- mode/##hplusroadmap [+o fenn] by kanzure | 23:35 | |
| cluckj | such hat | 23:35 |
| not_un | sheena, http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shaping_(psychology) | 23:35 |
| @kanzure | ParahSailin: ban not_un if he keeps acting like a moron, good night | 23:35 |
| sheena | not_un: yeah, i understand behaviour sciennce.. | 23:36 |
| @ParahSailin | try it with your sample population, feed the non-performant subjects to the selected breeders; repeat until desired behavior | 23:36 |
| cluckj | or......................................brain electrodes | 23:37 |
| sheena | loll | 23:37 |
| @fenn | you could make an automated crack pipe | 23:37 |
| sheena | zzz] | 23:37 |
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| --- Log closed Thu May 15 00:00:05 2014 | ||
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