| --- Log opened Sat May 17 00:00:07 2014 | ||
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| @fenn | who's going to maker faire? | 00:19 |
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| @fenn | i wrote to the cleverpet people and they are down to hang out at maker faire with people interested in genetics and intelligence. talk to dan knudsen and leo trottier | 00:52 |
| @fenn | cleverpet is the dog blinkenlights game | 00:53 |
| @fenn | for dogs | 00:53 |
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| delinquentme | fenn, a number of CCL people are going to be there | 02:02 |
| delinquentme | KR: It's amazing. They have turned investment banking into this two-year bootcamp for adulthood. They teach you to make powerpoint slides and Excel spreadsheets. | 02:17 |
| * delinquentme impressed | 02:17 | |
| delinquentme | http://www.vox.com/2014/5/15/5720596/how-wall-street-recruits-so-many-insecure-ivy-league-grads | 02:17 |
| gradstudentbot | That's definitely not repeatable. | 02:20 |
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| @fenn | "I got arrested calling 911 for help!" https://medium.com/human-parts/9f53ef6a1c10 some of you may know peretz | 04:55 |
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| kanzure | 836M /home/kanzure/local/opencascade/oce/src/llvm-output/ | 06:35 |
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| kanzure | pydot has a terrible api | 06:59 |
| kanzure | graph.get_node(e1.get_source())[0].get_label() | 06:59 |
| kanzure | get get get | 06:59 |
| kanzure | ugh it is taking 10 seconds to parse each dot file, this will take 14 hours.. | 07:36 |
| ParahSailin | kanzure: in the old days, these stockpiles would be tanks rather than cars, so at least theres that | 07:38 |
| kanzure | i wonder if these lots are looted | 07:42 |
| kanzure | none of them have stereos | 07:42 |
| ParahSailin | it reminds me of something out of kevin carson | 07:45 |
| ParahSailin | they need a war to soak off excess production | 07:45 |
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| kanzure | 210 MB of edges :| | 08:03 |
| kanzure | "So what we do is accelerate your graphs to 37.1 GeV, then we look at where the edges and nodes cluster together when they collide on the supermassive phosphor screen." | 08:06 |
| poppingtonic | ping gradstudentbot | 08:06 |
| gradstudentbot | The culture got contaminated. | 08:06 |
| poppingtonic | what? | 08:08 |
| ebowden | LOL | 08:11 |
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| kanzure | fenn: hplusroadmap.draft should be put into the wiki | 09:31 |
| kanzure | geeze do i really not have any text-based graph analysis tools? | 09:53 |
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| kanzure | sha256 vhdl file http://opencores.org/websvn,filedetails?repname=nfhc&path=%2Fnfhc%2Ftrunk%2Fsha256%2Fsha256.vhdl | 10:16 |
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| kanzure | that file is shorter than i expected | 10:22 |
| kanzure | i wonder if you could dump the blockchain data to asic, it's not like it's going to change | 10:22 |
| kanzure | (i don't mean normal-kind-of ROM) | 10:22 |
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| FourFire | kanzure, you'd have to gradually make new ASICs as time passes | 10:44 |
| FourFire | unless you chose a cutoffpoint, and just have the last, most recent blocks in a tiny amount of memory | 10:44 |
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| kanzure | opencascade callgraph data (6 MB) http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/irc/opencascade/callgraphs.tar.xz | 11:48 |
| kanzure | (it's a 2-file tarbomb) | 11:49 |
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| kanzure | http://www.csn.ul.ie/~mel/projects/codeviz/ "At some stage in everyone's programming career, they will need to read through a lot of code written by another programmer. An important part of program comprehension is building a picture of how the program is structured from a high-level view and call graphs can be an invaluable aid when building this piecture. This is particularly useful if the original programmer uses clear function names." | 12:11 |
| kanzure | "If they do not use clear function names, you are fucked." | 12:11 |
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| FourFire | That's a main reason why I'm discouraged from programming: I'm terrible at making names for things | 13:13 |
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| superkuh | paperbot: http://iopscience.iop.org/1347-4065/14/S1/351/pdf/1347-4065_14_S1_351.pdf | 13:34 |
| paperbot | http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/paperbot/58fa7e712da1811310eb51712757daad.pdf | 13:35 |
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| @jrayhawk | FourFire: you can't possibly be worse than actual programmers | 14:06 |
| @jrayhawk | consider: GNU | 14:06 |
| FourFire | I don't get your reference | 14:06 |
| FourFire | it's Gnome something something | 14:06 |
| FourFire | I hate the puns though | 14:06 |
| @jrayhawk | good | 14:06 |
| FourFire | "The GNU world Order has come!" | 14:07 |
| @jrayhawk | .wik GNU | 14:07 |
| yoleaux | "GNU i/ɡnuː/ is a Unix-like computer operating system developed by the GNU Project." — http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GNU | 14:07 |
| @jrayhawk | this bot does not have an acronym lookup | 14:09 |
| @jrayhawk | .w GNU | 14:10 |
| yoleaux | gnu (/(g)nuː, (g)njuː/): n. A large dark antelope with a long head, a beard and mane, and a sloping back — http://is.gd/ioxp1V | 14:10 |
| @jrayhawk | piffle | 14:10 |
| kanzure | .title http://tracker.dev.opencascade.org/view.php?id=24923 | 14:41 |
| yoleaux | 0024923: BRepMesh_CircleTool produces bad circles | 14:41 |
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| sapiosexual | jrayhawk, "Gnu's Not Unix"? | 15:09 |
| sapiosexual | The MIT crowd seemed to produce a lot of recursive acronyms... | 15:10 |
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| kanzure | oh that's interesting, i think opencascade just does pass-through for brep basic shapes to the underlying geometry code, so evaluating a point on the nurbs surface is really just pass-through to whatever normal functions are used to calculate a point on a sphere (unless, of course, you defined your sphere only as a brep, and it doesn't have a reference to an instance of a primitive shape object) | 15:48 |
| kanzure | ah, no, it's the other way around (exposing brep elements in a manner that the other geometry algorithms can access) | 15:50 |
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| kanzure | "In fact, for any kind of curve the interior is defined as the left-hand side of the curve in relation to its orientation." | 16:06 |
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| kanzure | "Elastic beam curves have their origin in traditional methods of modeling applied in boat-building, where a long thin piece of wood, a lathe, was forced to pass between two sets of nails and in this way, take the form of a curve based on the two points, the directions of the forces applied at those points, and the properties of the wooden lathe itself. Maintaining these constraints requires both longitudinal and transversal forces to be ... | 16:17 |
| kanzure | ... applied to the beam in order to compensate for its internal elasticity. The longitudinal forces can be a push or a pull and the beam may or may not be allowed to slide over these fixed points." | 16:17 |
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| @jrayhawk | sapiosexual: and, comically, what GNU was envisioned to be was, in fact, standard UNIX | 16:57 |
| @jrayhawk | though obviously they never finished | 16:57 |
| QuantumG | there wasn't even a standard when they started | 16:59 |
| @jrayhawk | "GIAESOU Is An Eventual Subset Of Unix" | 16:59 |
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| sapiosexual | QuantumG, there was convention, though now they've decided to deviate from POSIX quite a bit in Hurd | 16:59 |
| QuantumG | that's kinda the point of Hurd (if it can be said to have a point) | 17:00 |
| @jrayhawk | "GWBAESOUIIWFLWIBTHOOU Would Be An Eventual Subset Of Unix If It Weren't For Linux Worse-Is-Bettering The Hell Out Of Us" | 17:02 |
| gradstudentbot | The results of my study indicate that the climate is about to get really weird. | 17:02 |
| gnusha | https://secure.diyhpl.us/cgit/diyhpluswiki/commit/?id=e7c4e3de Bryan Bishop: notes about opencascade source code >> http://diyhpl.us/diyhpluswiki/cad/opencascade/ | 17:20 |
| gnusha | https://secure.diyhpl.us/cgit/diyhpluswiki/commit/?id=5c180ed1 Bryan Bishop: minor markdown syntax fix >> http://diyhpl.us/diyhpluswiki/cad/opencascade/ | 17:22 |
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| kanzure | alternating line vim regex for markdown links with underscores in their link text: :316,491g/^/if (line('.')%2) == 0|s/_/\\_/g | 17:40 |
| gnusha | https://secure.diyhpl.us/cgit/diyhpluswiki/commit/?id=cd70ead3 Bryan Bishop: fix underscores in links for markdown >> http://diyhpl.us/diyhpluswiki/cad/opencascade/ | 17:41 |
| gnusha | https://secure.diyhpl.us/cgit/diyhpluswiki/commit/?id=498f5a95 Bryan Bishop: sigh, more markdown tweaks >> http://diyhpl.us/diyhpluswiki/cad/opencascade/ | 17:42 |
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| gnusha | https://secure.diyhpl.us/cgit/diyhpluswiki/commit/?id=523df547 Bryan Bishop: opencascade package descriptions (partial) >> http://diyhpl.us/diyhpluswiki/cad/opencascade/ | 19:17 |
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| gnusha | https://secure.diyhpl.us/cgit/diyhpluswiki/commit/?id=5050f1b5 Bryan Bishop: describe more opencascade packages >> | 20:41 |
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| @fenn | not so classy, B9 creator sends makerjuice cease and desist over their vat patent. so much for "open source printer" http://makerjuice.com/docs/b9cd.pdf | 20:59 |
| @fenn | also their timing is impeccable, the gossip is probably everywhere at maker faire by now | 21:00 |
| pyotra | ; | 21:06 |
| kanzure | there was an email today from someone that basically said "makerfaire has had the same crap 8 years running, it's dumb and stupid and i hate all of you" | 21:08 |
| kanzure | because nobody builds new projects | 21:09 |
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| ParahSailin | its called faire because french, not because ren faire | 21:13 |
| @fenn | it's harkening back to the time of the maker renaissance, around 2006 | 21:14 |
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| @fenn | that's a long time in internet years | 21:15 |
| kanzure | ah yes, the dawn of the internet, when tim o'reilly was able to convince everyone to buy stupid magazines about stuff he wasn't paying for | 21:15 |
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| @fenn | i wish i could get testy about your cynicism but it's so true | 21:16 |
| @fenn | .g nnmi | 21:17 |
| yoleaux | http://manufacturing.gov/nnmi.html | 21:17 |
| kanzure | it's like selling air to... i mean fish to eskimos.. i mean.. like selling magazines to internet people, basically. | 21:17 |
| @fenn | i wonder what the story behind NNMI is | 21:18 |
| @fenn | i'm predicting it will go the way of government "nanotech" funding | 21:19 |
| @fenn | "oh yes we are very advanced rapid prototyping manufacturing so fresh so hacker" | 21:19 |
| kanzure | there's a lot of really advanced stuff hidden in opencascade | 21:20 |
| @fenn | i know | 21:20 |
| kanzure | where do they find these people? | 21:21 |
| @fenn | russia and france | 21:21 |
| kanzure | well yes.. but that doesn't explain anything. | 21:21 |
| @fenn | nizhny novogrod | 21:21 |
| kanzure | i mean, france does lots of curve math, but so what | 21:21 |
| @fenn | um, genetics? | 21:22 |
| @fenn | it could be just culture | 21:22 |
| @fenn | either way, france had a lot of mathematicians in its history | 21:22 |
| kanzure | after looking at almost all the modules today, | 21:22 |
| @fenn | and russia had a very good education system right up until around when opencascade started | 21:23 |
| kanzure | it is clear that most of the geometry and topology source code was written late 80s early 90s | 21:23 |
| kanzure | and then the rest of the time was spent making all this "document extension framework" horse shit | 21:23 |
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| @fenn | is that the "DS" stuff? | 21:23 |
| kanzure | XCAF | 21:23 |
| @fenn | oh, i never figured out what that was | 21:23 |
| kanzure | me either, after looking at the code i'm pretty sure it's just their inability to architect a semantic-anything | 21:24 |
| gradstudentbot | I.. I don't think this chart is accurate. | 21:24 |
| @fenn | semwhat? | 21:24 |
| @fenn | this was pre-XML right? | 21:24 |
| kanzure | i have outlined the majority of the packages here, http://diyhpl.us/wiki/cad/opencascade | 21:24 |
| kanzure | (at the bottom) | 21:25 |
| @fenn | can we just revert to matra datavision and call it "open datavision" | 21:25 |
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| @fenn | i mean seriously | 21:25 |
| @fenn | i just want a geometry kernel | 21:25 |
| @fenn | wow you've been busy | 21:26 |
| kanzure | so their business model is clearly about consulting | 21:26 |
| @fenn | yes they gain nothing by cleaning up the code | 21:26 |
| kanzure | and i suspect that what happened was that their clients didn't have their own programming teams | 21:26 |
| kanzure | or if they did, it was people who didn't want to even think about CAD | 21:26 |
| kanzure | because opencascade does do a bunch of handholding around geometry | 21:27 |
| kanzure | lots of "application plugin interfaces" | 21:27 |
| @fenn | obviously whoever did the programming didnt understand any of it and instead of getting their hands dirty they wrap wrappers in wrapping wrap | 21:27 |
| kanzure | yeah i am surprised i haven't seen code duplication yet; what about all the "project a curve on a surface" packages, surely those are dupes? | 21:27 |
| @fenn | is there a clear "core" of code that can be neatly excised into a separate package? | 21:27 |
| kanzure | the non-boolean-operational non-nurbs 2d geometry is like 15 packages, but mostly separate | 21:28 |
| kanzure | and some of the 3d geometry stuff | 21:28 |
| @fenn | just 2d geometry is 15 packages? (what's a package?) | 21:28 |
| kanzure | they keep geometry and topology stuff conceptually isolated (to the extent that they are able to maintain a coherent concept at all) | 21:29 |
| kanzure | a package is each folder in src/ | 21:29 |
| kanzure | some of these packages are just "toolkits", which have no source code and instead have a bunch of dependencies to other packages | 21:29 |
| kanzure | these toolkit packages begin with the letters TK | 21:29 |
| kanzure | which is 63 of them | 21:30 |
| @fenn | ok can we not call folders packages then? | 21:30 |
| @fenn | because this is confusing | 21:30 |
| kanzure | look at "package naming conventions" | 21:30 |
| kanzure | well, they call them packages | 21:30 |
| gnusha | https://secure.diyhpl.us/cgit/diyhpluswiki/commit/?id=9c2e88c3 Bryan Bishop: fix error in opencascade naming convention list >> http://diyhpl.us/diyhpluswiki/cad/opencascade/ | 21:31 |
| @fenn | you know i have been thinking about how much simpler it would be to use pixel/voxel methods | 21:31 |
| gradstudentbot | What do you mean this isn't going to work? | 21:31 |
| @fenn | shame on me | 21:31 |
| @fenn | can you tell me why it crashes upon exceptions instead of just, like, not crash? | 21:33 |
| gnusha | https://secure.diyhpl.us/cgit/diyhpluswiki/commit/?id=b44fbddf Bryan Bishop: also identify the T(ransient) naming convention >> http://diyhpl.us/diyhpluswiki/cad/opencascade/ | 21:33 |
| kanzure | config.h setting | 21:34 |
| @fenn | what is Mgt short for? | 21:34 |
| kanzure | management | 21:34 |
| @fenn | maybe i just have to think in french to understand this | 21:35 |
| kanzure | i don't have a good sense yet for which parts were written by the french vs the russians | 21:35 |
| kanzure | i am not sure if the geometry primitive stuff is useful | 21:36 |
| kanzure | like, what's the point of having implicit circles when you could just represent the circle as a brep? | 21:36 |
| kanzure | i guess it's nice to get a circle when you dump to step or iges | 21:36 |
| @fenn | because they didn't have breps when they wrote the circle code? | 21:37 |
| kanzure | i doubt it | 21:37 |
| @fenn | you can also dump brep to step or iges (in fact you have to?) | 21:37 |
| @fenn | i remember reading about "where to put the seam on a cylinder" | 21:37 |
| kanzure | * Old Boolean Operations (BOA) provided by BRepAlgo package designed and developed in Open CASCADE 6x in 2000; its architecture and content are out of date. | 21:37 |
| kanzure | * New Boolean Operations (NBOA) provided by BRepAlgoAPI package designed and developed in 2001 and completely revised in 2013. | 21:38 |
| @fenn | guh why | 21:38 |
| @fenn | just delete the old code please | 21:38 |
| kanzure | and why call the new one just "old+API"? | 21:38 |
| @fenn | there are a lot of chunks of commented out code laying around too | 21:39 |
| @fenn | "Open CASCADE Community Edition: patches/improvements/experiments contributed by users over the official Open CASCADE library." | 21:40 |
| @fenn | did they never resolve the license question? is it open source or not? | 21:40 |
| @fenn | this is ridiculous | 21:41 |
| @fenn | 1390 patches | 21:41 |
| kanzure | yes they clarified it as lgpl now | 21:41 |
| @fenn | so why does "OCE" exist? | 21:41 |
| kanzure | because you have to sign a contributor license agreement and take a blood oath to get access to opencascade's upstream git server | 21:41 |
| kanzure | http://git.dev.opencascade.org/gitweb/ | 21:41 |
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| @fenn | so it's not patches, just a downstream fork | 21:42 |
| @fenn | like foo1.2.3-ubuntu1 | 21:42 |
| kanzure | yes i think it does include extra changes | 21:42 |
| kanzure | and then they merge upstream into it every once in a while | 21:43 |
| @fenn | ah that's good | 21:43 |
| kanzure | https://github.com/tpaviot/oce/blob/master/NEWS | 21:43 |
| kanzure | i think anywhere that you see a colon surrounded by spaces on both sides, it's a french person | 21:44 |
| @fenn | * Define Standard_Boolean as a bool | 21:45 |
| * fenn facepalms | 21:45 | |
| kanzure | that's from src/Standard/ probably | 21:45 |
| @fenn | C++: when C isn't "portable" enough | 21:46 |
| kanzure | these things are probably worth reading, | 21:46 |
| kanzure | http://dev.opencascade.org/doc/overview/html/occt_user_guides__modeling_algos.html | 21:46 |
| kanzure | http://dev.opencascade.org/doc/overview/html/occt_user_guides__boolean_operations.html | 21:46 |
| * fenn wearily casts an eye towards the document | 21:47 | |
| kanzure | their source code formatting choices are disgusting | 21:49 |
| @fenn | oh will you look at that, i'm out of ram and can't read these, shucks. | 21:52 |
| kanzure | "To help the user, the Topology API classes only raise the exception StdFail_NotDone. Any other exception means that something happened which was unforeseen in the design of this API." | 21:53 |
| kanzure | well anyway, that stuff is all bogus, scroll down and there's actual math/cad relevant stuff | 21:54 |
| @fenn | did nmz787 ever build a DLP 3d printer or stereolithography setup? | 21:56 |
| @fenn | i vaguely remember something about a blu-ray diode or UV LED | 21:56 |
| kanzure | i don't think he built it | 21:57 |
| kanzure | he would have rubbed it in my face more :) | 21:57 |
| kanzure | someone emailed me a link to sean wrona, "hey bryan, you should totally meet this guy and race him" | 21:57 |
| kanzure | (he raced me about 10 times a few years ago) | 21:59 |
| @fenn | why dont they just sell all those old cars to india | 22:00 |
| kanzure | because then how are they going to claim the insurance money due to "lost inventory"? | 22:00 |
| kanzure | due to "market conditions" | 22:00 |
| @fenn | you can get insurance due to "market conditions"? | 22:00 |
| kanzure | when you employ 4 million people, anything is possible | 22:01 |
| @fenn | "we could just have smart cars that drive themselves on the tollroads, eliminating the need for human drivers | 22:01 |
| @fenn | and then everyone is billed for the self-driving cars that are accumulating tolls | 22:01 |
| @fenn | no need for passengers | 22:01 |
| @fenn | "Send them to the empty factory parking lots and unused spaces in Detroit." | 22:02 |
| @fenn | the Cars Come Home to Roost | 22:02 |
| kanzure | general motors is 219k, chrysler is 65k, toyota 333k, ford 181k, nissan 160k, honda 190k, volkswagen 190k, hyundai 57k, suzuki 14k, mitsubishi 30k | 22:03 |
| kanzure | okay maybe not quite 4 million | 22:03 |
| @fenn | how many excess cars do they have tho | 22:03 |
| gradstudentbot | None of this data makes sense. | 22:03 |
| kanzure | 1.4 million employees only? that's what the recession was for? | 22:03 |
| @jrayhawk | was there there's also a lot of supply chain | 22:04 |
| kanzure | i think the article estimated 1 million cars | 22:04 |
| kanzure | oh yeah, the other companies that they contract to, long tail n' such | 22:04 |
| @fenn | number of employees doesn't necessarily correlate with economic impact/volume of sales | 22:04 |
| kanzure | no, it was my answer regarding insurance | 22:05 |
| @fenn | 1.5 million etsy crafters would be expected to have a smaller economic impact | 22:05 |
| kanzure | i think they get insurance money every time they have a recall | 22:05 |
| kanzure | "Product recall insurance is typically purchased by manufacturers such as food and beverage, toy and electronics companies to cover costs such as customer notification, shipping costs and disposal costs. Coverage generally applies to the firm itself, though additional coverage can be purchased to cover the costs of third parties." | 22:07 |
| @fenn | sell a new, better engineered model every two/three years or so. That way, the engineers can relax a little and concentrate on making something good instead of freakin recycling the same shit over and over again because they don't have time to engineer something good... | 22:08 |
| @fenn | "When a tax-payer bails out a company and puts it on life support, you whinge that it is "communism". Except it is not. Because they didn't follow through. It is only half-communism" | 22:11 |
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| @fenn | the bad half | 22:12 |
| kanzure | i wonder if opencascade acquired any of these packages, such as from another company | 22:13 |
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| @fenn | almost certainly | 22:13 |
| @fenn | that's why there's no real integration | 22:13 |
| kanzure | maybe the majority of the actual cad knowledge was from somewhere else? | 22:13 |
| kanzure | some university research group | 22:14 |
| @fenn | i doubt it | 22:14 |
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| @fenn | company A hires company B to integrate company C's work into company Z's product | 22:14 |
| kanzure | well how often do people hire programmers and force them to read geometry papers, that's not normal | 22:14 |
| @fenn | (Z came first) | 22:14 |
| @fenn | it's not normal? | 22:15 |
| @fenn | there are programming companies who specialize in cad stuff | 22:15 |
| kanzure | no, most programmers do not read papers | 22:15 |
| kanzure | like the vast majority of web developers | 22:15 |
| @fenn | maybe in silicon valley they don't, but some professional cad programmers i know do | 22:15 |
| kanzure | i am not saiyng they are stupid, i am just saying they do not do that or it does not happen in their jobs really | 22:15 |
| kanzure | you know professional cad programmers? | 22:16 |
| gradstudentbot | Am I going to get honors on this rotation? | 22:16 |
| kanzure | for all their professional skillz where's the sane and rational library | 22:16 |
| @fenn | jepler and cradek in #emc | 22:16 |
| kanzure | "You must be invited" | 22:16 |
| @fenn | their professional skillz are used to maintain the professional product they get paid to maintain | 22:16 |
| gradstudentbot | Well, I can't really talk about it because I'm trying to get it published in Science or Nature. | 22:17 |
| kanzure | whatever, until i see evidence to the contrary i'll assume it's just as awful as opencascade under the hood | 22:17 |
| @fenn | it probably is | 22:17 |
| kanzure | brlcad doesn't really compare to a bunch of this | 22:17 |
| @fenn | but they read papers | 22:17 |
| entelechy | hmm some i'm sure many programmers and webdevs read technical papers on the subjects they specialize in, but i'm probably still muted | 22:17 |
| kanzure | surface manipulation is where it's at, not basic csg stuff | 22:18 |
| entelechy | this is the latest one i've had my eye on taking a look at soon: http://css.csail.mit.edu/mylar/mylar.pdf | 22:18 |
| kanzure | i'm aware that brlcad now has some basic nurbs surface-surface intersection stuff, but that's not the same as having a coherent surface-based cad | 22:19 |
| @fenn | brlcad is implicit geometry with some nurbs add-ons to make STEP work | 22:20 |
| kanzure | it's not as implicit as impliticad, i think | 22:20 |
| @fenn | no, it's not | 22:20 |
| @fenn | that's "functional geometry" | 22:21 |
| kanzure | *implicitcad | 22:21 |
| @fenn | or f-rep | 22:21 |
| kanzure | all these names are stupid | 22:21 |
| @fenn | why | 22:21 |
| kanzure | because everyone has their own definition | 22:21 |
| @fenn | there's a difference between "class Circle" and "this function that happens to be a circle" | 22:21 |
| kanzure | "class Circle" could just be something that specifies a function that happens to be a circle | 22:22 |
| @fenn | right but the function always (ideally) specifies a circle | 22:22 |
| kanzure | or it could be an "elemental" type, where it doesn't specify the algorithm, but the system says it's a circle so it's a circle | 22:22 |
| @fenn | same thing | 22:22 |
| @fenn | i've seen some pretty ugly "circles" | 22:23 |
| @fenn | *cough autocad cough* | 22:23 |
| @fenn | https://autocadtips.wordpress.com/2011/08/02/how-to-fix-blocky-circles-arcs/ | 22:24 |
| kanzure | is there any good reason to have bezier curves? | 22:24 |
| @fenn | for compatibility? | 22:24 |
| kanzure | with what? | 22:24 |
| kanzure | why not only bsplines | 22:25 |
| @fenn | i dunno, adobe illustrator truetype fonts? | 22:25 |
| @fenn | beziers are cubic functions right? and nurbs are quintic? | 22:25 |
| @fenn | so aren't beziers a subset of nurbs? | 22:25 |
| kanzure | i just said something stupid | 22:25 |
| kanzure | REDACT | 22:25 |
| @fenn | (actual question, not rhetorical. redaction rejected) | 22:25 |
| kanzure | .wik bezier spline | 22:25 |
| yoleaux | "In the mathematical field of numerical analysis and in computer graphics, a Bézier spline is a spline curve where each polynomial of the spline is in Bézier form." — http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bezier_spline | 22:26 |
| @fenn | thanks wikipedia~ | 22:26 |
| kanzure | "In other words,[contradiction] a Bézier spline is simply a series of Bézier curves joined end to end where the last point of one curve coincides with the starting point of the next curve. Usually cubic Bézier curves are used, and additional control points (called handles) are added to define the shape of each curve. A Bézier spline is similar to a polyline in that it connects a series of points, but whereas in polylines the points are ... | 22:26 |
| kanzure | ... connected by straight lines, in a Bézier spline the points are connected by Bézier curves." | 22:26 |
| @fenn | "usually" is not good to see in a mathematical definition | 22:27 |
| @fenn | oh SVG uses cubic beziers? | 22:28 |
| kanzure | i better get an honorary phd for this shit | 22:28 |
| @fenn | i think it's good to know the basic math behind stuff | 22:29 |
| @fenn | it turns out it's not all that fancy | 22:29 |
| @fenn | why is it "bezier" instead of just "cubic spline"? | 22:29 |
| @fenn | fuck all that dead french guy shit | 22:29 |
| kanzure | it's a person | 22:29 |
| kanzure | dead person | 22:29 |
| @fenn | who fucking cares | 22:29 |
| kanzure | you asked | 22:30 |
| @fenn | </rhetorical type="rant"> | 22:30 |
| kanzure | TypeError: type not typed correctly | 22:30 |
| @fenn | </rant class="rhetorical question"> | 22:30 |
| @fenn | since nurbs are quintic and can easily represent cubic and quadratic splines, it's not much of a complexity overhead to include them | 22:31 |
| @fenn | semantic sugar really | 22:32 |
| gradstudentbot | They're not recording lectures so now I have to go to class every day. | 22:32 |
| @fenn | all that curve projection crap is to trim the nurbs surfaces | 22:32 |
| @fenn | "Non-rational splines or Bézier curves may approximate a circle, but they cannot represent it exactly. Rational splines can represent any conic section, including the circle, exactly." then they list a table of "rational" weights which include a lot of sqrt(2)'s | 22:35 |
| @fenn | seems like it would be the other way around | 22:36 |
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| gradstudentbot | It's statistically significant. | 22:36 |
| @fenn | science | 22:36 |
| * fenn pokes gradstudentbot but not really | 22:37 | |
| gradstudentbot | Well, it looks better if you see it through a UV scope. | 22:37 |
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| @fenn | kanzure while you're making call graphs and documenting code conventions and stuff, does it make sense to do that for brl-cad too? or is their documentation good enough already? | 22:55 |
| gnusha | https://secure.diyhpl.us/cgit/diyhpluswiki/commit/?id=09e6f4b9 Bryan Bishop: opencascade packages about geometry >> http://diyhpl.us/diyhpluswiki/cad/opencascade/ | 23:08 |
| kanzure | brlcad is way more easily understood | 23:08 |
| kanzure | the python wrappers on top of the python bindings are a reasonable place to start | 23:09 |
| kanzure | http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Euclid_(computer_program) | 23:18 |
| kanzure | "Euclid is a CAD software which has been developed since 1970. Initially written by Jean Marc Brun and Michel Théron at Laboratoire d'informatique pour la mécanique et les sciences de l'ingénieur (LIMSI) for modelling fluid flow, they founded their own company, Datavision in 1979 and then sold a controlling interest in 1980 to the French company Matra Datavision.[1]" | 23:19 |
| kanzure | their company was called datavision and it was sold to a company called datavision? | 23:19 |
| kanzure | "Matra was owned by the Floirat family. The name Matra became famous in the 1960s when it went into car production by buying Automobiles René Bonnet. Matra Automobiles produced racing cars and sports cars, and was successful in racing." | 23:20 |
| @fenn | is that the same euclid that you were reverse engineering? | 23:22 |
| kanzure | no, you're thinking of esolid | 23:24 |
| kanzure | esolid was from an academic paper | 23:24 |
| kanzure | and had source code | 23:24 |
| @fenn | heh. it must be obvious how my brain hashes names | 23:25 |
| @fenn | does two-photon DLP photolithography make sense physically? | 23:29 |
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| cpopell`werk | Hmmmmmmm | 23:49 |
| cpopell`werk | fenn: I'm not sure, DMDs are about 5um across | 23:49 |
| cpopell`werk | I don't know the actual physical focusing mechanism used in 2 photon microlith | 23:49 |
| @fenn | the lens on the projecting laser? or you can use a front side lens (after bouncing off the mirror) | 23:50 |
| cpopell`werk | no, I mean, how are you shifting where the light goes-are you using some sort of micromotor on the lens? | 23:50 |
| @fenn | the DMD is just a high brightness image plane | 23:50 |
| cpopell`werk | the thing about DLP is that you usually only have two settings | 23:51 |
| cpopell`werk | output and heat sink | 23:51 |
| cpopell`werk | *for a given mirror | 23:51 |
| @fenn | uh.. so? | 23:51 |
| kanzure | "FilletSurf - API giving only geometric information about fillets for Toyota Project UV4." | 23:52 |
| cpopell`werk | Hmmmm, I'm not really certain where you'd put the DMD system into place or what benefit it would give | 23:53 |
| @fenn | 2 photon means "below the diffraction limit" and the diffraction refers to the diffraction due to the size of the aperture; larger aperture, less diffraction. DMD having 5um mirrors makes for a small aperture? | 23:53 |
| @fenn | the DMD is to direct the light to specific places on the photolithography substrate | 23:54 |
| @fenn | 2 photon doesn't say anything about how the light gets there, only the reaction mechanism | 23:54 |
| cpopell`werk | yes, but usually it involves immersing the laser in the material itself | 23:54 |
| @fenn | ^^ i should have said "is used for below diffraction limit" | 23:54 |
| cpopell`werk | I'm just not sure where a DMD would improve current techniques, but that's because I don't know how they're currently shifting things around | 23:55 |
| cpopell`werk | it looks like they're physically moving the laser focus | 23:55 |
| @fenn | ah crap i just closed that tab | 23:56 |
| cpopell`werk | http://www.asdn.net/asdn/nanotools/two-photon_polymerization.shtml | 23:56 |
| @fenn | .title http://www.photonics.com/Article.aspx?AID=50989 | 23:59 |
| yoleaux | Two-photon lithography creates detailed 3-D prints fast | 23:59 |
| @fenn | this guy uses mirrors to move his laser beam around | 23:59 |
| --- Log closed Sun May 18 00:00:08 2014 | ||
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