2014-05-23.log

--- Log opened Fri May 23 00:00:13 2014
@fenn"Sea and desert birds have been found to have a salt gland near the nostrils which concentrates brine, later to be "sneezed" out to the sea, in effect allowing these birds to drink seawater without the need to find freshwater resources. It also enables the seabirds to remove the excess salt entering the body when eating, swimming or diving in the sea for food. The kidney cannot remove these00:20
@fennquantities and concentrations of salt."00:20
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@fennpaperbot: http://www.scientific.net/KEM.428-429.53300:29
paperbothttp://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/paperbot/cd3a707234c9a634e140704dbdd87543.txt00:29
@fennpaperbot: http://www.scientific.net/KEM.428-429.533.pdf00:29
paperbothttp://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/paperbot/3ad9d77074e20ca011bb62e28b07c39a.txt00:29
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@fennhow can this even be a new thing in 2010 "we applied soap to iron oxide particles"00:31
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@fenn"Water based (aqueous) ferrofluids often use ionic sufficants such as tetramethylammonium hydroxide. The negative hydroxide ions stick to the surface of the magnetite, and the tetramethylammonium cations form a positively charged layer around the outside."00:34
@fenn"make sure you don't need the container again as the ferrofluid is very staining.00:36
@fennhttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electrorheological_fluid neat stuff00:38
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@fennthis is exactly like the white "blood" from bishop in aliens00:41
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@fenn.title https://www.flickr.com/photos/llnl/3421933297/in/set-7215760709982401900:50
yoleauxNIF Potassium Dihydrogen Phosphate Crystal00:50
@fennwhy is a public domain photo "safe"00:54
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@fennwtf US national labs can have copyrights on media they produce?00:59
@fennwhen will it end00:59
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@_archels.title http://radar.oreilly.com/2014/05/it-works-like-the-brain-so.html01:54
yoleauxIt works like the brain. So?01:54
@fennthe brain, an incredibly complex 25 watt glucose-fueled space heater01:54
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@fenni will never be satisfied until your so-called "AI" runs on pop tarts02:09
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chris_99http://www.nature.com/nrn/journal/v15/n3/full/nrn3679.html04:37
chris_99.title04:37
paperbothttp://libgen.org/scimag/get.php?doi=10.1038%2Fnrn367904:37
yoleauxOn the other hand: including left-handers in cognitive neuroscience and neurogenetics04:37
chris_99i thought that was interesting04:37
gradstudentbotI have to order new primers.04:40
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@fennhow hard could it be to build a mask to transform capacitance to tactile sense https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electroreception#Electrolocation06:54
@fennwhere do i put this idea on the wiki06:58
@fennthere's no schema, or if there is one it's being ignored more than followed06:59
@fennlike why isn't myostatin in projects/ or genetic-modifications06:59
@fennnot that i particularly like the idea of a projects/ directory06:59
@fennpart of the reason i wrote goals.yaml was to organize this stuff in some transhumanism-specific way07:00
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@fenni'd like some feedback on it, if anyone wants to look: http://diyhpl.us/wiki/goals.yaml07:04
@fenn"sort projects by dimension of capability, feasibility, and expected effectiveness" seems particularly relevant wrt "how to organize the wiki"07:04
@fenndimension of capability meaning i.e. physical strength, complexity comprehension, loquaciousness, sensory sensitivity07:06
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gnushahttps://secure.diyhpl.us/cgit/diyhpluswiki/commit/?id=dcd0735b fenn: stub out sensory substitution and throw in a capacitive sensing idea >> http://diyhpl.us/diyhpluswiki/senses/07:23
gnushahttps://secure.diyhpl.us/cgit/diyhpluswiki/commit/?id=7be0e944 fenn: markdown... >> http://diyhpl.us/diyhpluswiki/senses/07:24
gnushahttps://secure.diyhpl.us/cgit/diyhpluswiki/commit/?id=23c445e0 fenn: more >> http://diyhpl.us/diyhpluswiki/senses/07:28
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BreakByte1Hi07:33
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BreakByte1Nothing is here07:34
BreakByte1¿¿??07:34
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sheenahttp://solarroadways.com/faq.shtml08:48
kanzure"more" is a bad commit message08:55
kanzurepaperbot: http://www.jove.com/video/51075/aplysia-ganglia-preparation-for-electrophysiological-molecular09:04
paperbotTypeError: unicode() argument 2 must be string, not None (file "/usr/local/lib/python2.7/dist-packages/requests/models.py", line 825, in text)09:04
cubapaperbot: help09:10
cubapaperbot: !help09:10
kanzureno help09:10
kanzurehttps://github.com/kanzure/paperbot09:11
@fennpaperbot: http://scitation.aip.org/content/asa/journal/jasa/117/6/10.1121/1.1904423?ver=pdfcov09:18
paperbothttp://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/paperbot/An%20aeroacoustically%20driven%20thermoacoustic%20heat%20pump.txt09:19
@fenni hate having to write commit messages for two-word edits09:19
dingo"spellfix"09:19
dingo"docfix"09:19
@fennpaperbot: http://scitation.aip.org/deliver/fulltext/asa/journal/jasa/117/6/1.1904423.pdf09:21
kanzurehah after reading this i have no idea what they actually do http://blog.sourceeasy.com/post/86578562513/building-the-first-full-stack-startup-out-of-india09:21
kanzurethey bug their supplires with nsa snooping devices and yell at them when they do it wron?09:21
kanzure*wrong09:21
kanzure*suppliers09:21
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delinquentmepaperbot, http://dx.doi.org/10.1126/scitranslmed.300424909:22
paperbothttp://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/paperbot/89e60dbd9a50cc28fe5dd4a469cf745d.txt09:22
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delinquentmepaperbot, http://stm.sciencemag.org/content/4/159/159ra147.full09:25
paperbothttp://libgen.org/scimag/get.php?doi=10.1126%2Fscitranslmed.300424909:25
gradstudentbotThat's beyond the scope of my research.09:27
paperbothttp://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/paperbot/Unexpected%20Error.txt09:28
@fennpaperbot: don't you sass me now09:31
chris_99heh09:31
@fennhrmph. aip.ORG sure likes charging big bucks for their papers09:33
kanzurejove.com changed how they serve videos >:|09:41
kanzureshould have archived their videos when i had the chance09:41
chris_99i don't get jove09:41
chris_99it's paid for right?09:41
kanzurelibraries pay for a subscription09:42
kanzurelibraries pay to get buttfucked, basically09:42
chris_99why the hell do people upload videos to it then09:42
chris_99i don't understand09:42
kanzurefor the same reasons you upload protocols to nature protocols?09:42
chris_99but nature has a lot more cache no?09:43
chris_99jove just seems like some random video site09:45
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kanzurejove has lots of protocols09:48
kanzurehttp://diyhpl.us/~bryan/jove.urls.txt09:49
kanzurethis is probably why they changed their url scheme :|09:49
chris_99who's it peer reviewed by though09:49
chris_99haha nice list09:49
kanzurei dunno if i care about peer review of "here is an interesting way to cut into mouse brain matter"09:50
chris_99it'd be nice if there was something like arxiv then for videos09:50
kanzurehttps://www.indiegogo.com/projects/vocore-a-coin-sized-linux-computer-with-wifi10:06
chris_99intriguing, ARM?10:06
chris_99oh MIPS10:06
GeDaMohttp://www.reddit.com/r/IAmA/comments/26al4x/i_am_jennifer_french_paralympian_active_user_of/10:09
kanzureno reddit please10:10
GeDaMoSorry10:10
kanzurea paper about the particular implants, or instructions on how to build them, would be on-topic, but a reddit thread is usually noise and boring10:10
kanzureor, someone posting reverse enineering stuff about them, or ROM dumps etc10:15
@fennwhat would you do with a zillion videos anyway10:16
@fenndamn i forgot to write about airwells10:16
kanzurewatch them.. i have a monitor playing hours of video every day, i'd rather play SCIENCE videos.10:16
kanzureand real science, not the bullshit from ineptitude geographic or whatever10:17
@fennwhat do you play on your video monitor then10:17
kanzureanime, movies, etc., while i code. otherwise i get distracted.10:17
kanzurethe downside is that i have a very high burn rate for all sorts of media10:18
@fennyeah i bet you would fail a reading comprehension test10:18
@fennor an anime comprehension test for that matter10:18
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kanzurehuh? you asked me a question didn't you10:19
@fenni mean something playing in the background while you code doesn't count as watching it10:19
kanzurei think i comprehended your question correctly10:19
kanzureoh are you sure it doesn't count? seems like the sort of thing that others would say "you're just watching stuff instead of doing things"10:19
@fennworst of both worlds10:20
kanzureif you do things right, nothing at all, etc10:20
@fennor maybe you have a highly parallel brain vs my single processing unit10:20
@fennwhich is why i can't stop thinking about triaxial weave and thermoacoustic honeycomb10:21
kanzuremain difference is probably related to my fucked up working memory10:21
@fennyou said something about aspergers having dense cortical minicolumns with less long-range wiring10:22
kanzurehmm, i think it was something about voltage spillover management things10:22
@fennsort of the opposite of schizophrenia10:22
FourFireHey, has anyone in here participated in *grinding* ?10:22
@fennFourFire: no, go away.10:22
kanzureman how awful can this guy get10:22
kanzurewhat is your subroutine anyway10:22
@fenndef annoykanzure: irc.sendmsg("##hplusroadmap", reddit.search(kanzure.annoyances.random()))10:23
kanzurei would have guessed logs.search()10:24
@fennno, it's searching reddit for things that annoy you10:24
kanzuretruly ai is terrifying10:25
kanzuretrollbot 500010:25
kanzurethe computational power of twenty football stadiums for the sole purpose of trolling me10:25
paperbottroll, baby, troll10:26
kanzureyeah paperbot is a pretty big troll, wont even paperify you10:26
kanzurewhat did you think? https://github.com/tenko/occmodel/blob/master/occmodel/occmodeldemo.py10:28
gradstudentbotI don't know what to tell you, I thought I would have graduated by now.10:29
chris_99awh poor gradstudentbot10:30
gradstudentbotYou don't happen to have any more virgin flies, do you?10:30
chris_99no10:30
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@fennwhat's with the eval(TEXT)10:37
@fennis this some kind of attempt at obfuscation?10:39
@fennobfuscation by extra-clevererness10:39
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kanzuremy guess is that he didn't want to do (e1, e2, e3, w1, w2, w3) = self.execute(), so he came up with that terrible system instead10:42
kanzureEdge().createEllipse() is a pretty stupid api concept10:42
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FourFirefenn why don't you like me :c10:59
FourFire(J/K I didn't think so, but maybe one of the lurkers did/does?)10:59
kanzurehttp://octopart.com/blog/archives/2014/5/announcing-the-octopart-microcontroller-price-index11:00
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ParahSailinfenn: just saw your posting on architecture11:12
kanzure*engineering11:20
ParahSailinfenn: what do you think the future in low embodied energy building materials is11:23
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kanzureand can you give me a banana futures forecast11:46
@fennbananas are toast, dude11:47
@fennbanana marshmallow peanut butter chocolate cinnamon toast11:47
kanzureso... i should buy fish futures?11:47
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@fennwell there's a banana scare every few years and one of these times it will probably collapse for real11:48
kanzurelaw of large numbers?11:49
@fennParahSailin: bamboo, basalt fiber, lignin, carbon fiber, sintered titanium (i guess these aren't really low-energy huh)11:50
kanzurei was doing opencascade things because i was going to do python-brlcad things11:50
kanzurebut why was i going to do python-brlcad things?11:50
@fennParahSailin: honestly it's harder to get lower energy than sun-cured compressed earth brick11:51
ParahSailinyeah that has a lot going for it11:52
@fennif your metric is MJ/kg the result will be different than if it's MJ/m^2 of habitable space11:52
ParahSailinit doesnt work with every soil type though?11:52
@fennmake it work11:52
ParahSailinalso cant really pour a foundation with it11:53
@fennnothing some old tires can't fix11:53
@fennEPS also works to prevent frost heave, but then you have to shield the EPS11:54
ParahSailinhow does that work11:54
ParahSailinold tires as foundation i mean11:54
ParahSailincould you just ram earth as foundation as well?11:57
@fennhttp://fennetic.net/irc/kaki_hunter_-_earthbag_building.pdf see page 74 but also read the whole chapter on foundations12:01
@fenni must have read about it somewhere else, but the idea is the tire acts as both a gravel containment system (tensile reinforcement) and a capillary break, and is water/sun proof to boot12:02
kanzurewas it "give something for the openscad users to use, which isn't going to be a maintenance nightmare?"12:03
@fennthe "earthship" people make a big deal out of ramming dirt in tires laboriously but you really only need to dump some coarse locking gravel or road bed material in there12:03
kanzureit wasn't because i had anything in particular to model at the time12:04
@fennyou want to sift the big rocks out of the fill dirt anyway so you will have a bunch of gravel12:04
@fennoh i forgot about "urbanite" heh12:06
@fennkanzure: is lack of a decent open source cad program not reason enough?12:06
kanzureno, because i can just pirate solidworks?12:06
@fennpick any project, you probably will need a cad program to build it12:07
kanzuredid you have an opinion about the "only use very simple geometric primitives" part/assembly description language from the other day? http://gnusha.org/logs/2014-05-19.log12:07
@fennif you want to re-use other people's projects, they will need a cad program to share with the world12:07
kanzure("PADL" in the logs)12:07
@fenni thought it was stupid because it just generalizes to voxels in the end12:07
kanzurewuh?12:08
@fennwhy not use manufacturing processes as primitives instead12:08
kanzure"since the method can be applied to voxels, .." ?12:08
kanzurei think they were using manufacturing processes? they call them "abilities"12:08
@fennPADL is just boxes and cylinders12:08
kanzureoops, capabilities12:08
@fennadd enough tiny boxes together and you can make any shape12:08
kanzure"Libraries of PADL-like (or informationally equivalent) object definitions will be essential to provide precise specifications of new and standard parts, assemblies, and stock. Such libraries can also contain geometric approximations of tool structures and fixtures that are adequate for process-planning purposes. If suitable 'Capability Files' are added to this base, one has data sufficient for automatic manufacturing, (and probably ...12:09
kanzure... assembly)...."12:09
kanzurewell anyway, fine, suppose they were proposing a geometric primitives library of manufacturing tool shape paths12:09
@fennalso, square corners suck for mechanical things12:09
@fenninternal square corners are weak, external square corners are poky12:10
@fennmost things that look square actually have a small radius or chamfer12:10
@fenni'd like to see an octahedral hexapod's "capability" represented in PADL12:12
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@fennactually, no i wouldn't12:17
kanzureyes and what is the capability of a lever or a saw12:18
@fenn"big tools for small things, small tools for big things"12:20
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kanzurehuh?12:22
kanzureis that propaganda12:22
@fennsomething my boatbuilder friend used to say12:22
@fenn.title http://youtube.com/watch?v=1TsFwsyn97U12:26
yoleauxModern Ecoshell Construction12:26
@fennParahSailin: ^^12:26
@fennugly but it works for equatorial regions12:27
@fennactually the big ones look kinda cool12:28
@fenn.title http://hdl.handle.net/1802/2637112:34
yoleauxCONSTANT-RADIUS BLENDING IN SOLID MODELLING12:34
@fennthe figures on page 42+ beat most "cad" programs i've used hands down12:35
@fennOCC wouldn't know what to do with page 43 for example12:36
@fennusually you just dont get filleting at all12:37
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kanzurethere are at least three chamfering and filleting modules in opencascade12:40
kanzurelet's ban "OCC" because their abbreviationism is bullshit and evil: http://diyhpl.us/wiki/cad/opencascade#abbreviations12:41
kanzuretheir capacity to abbreviate is endless12:43
kanzurelike really, how am i supposed to know that "aMPBLI" is "BOPDS_IndexedDataMapOfPaveBlockListOfInteger12:43
kanzurebut "aItLI" is "BOPDS_ListIteratorOfListOfPaveBlock" instead of a list of integers like the last one12:43
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dingowow12:58
dingothats nuts12:58
dingothose abbreviates read like an indian software contract house12:58
kanzurefrench and russian, in this case12:58
dingomm.12:58
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jrayhawk_.title http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LBHVKFCoYFc are pretty cool, too, though obviously something with a foundation is better for housing13:19
yoleauxjrayhawk_: Sorry, that command (.title) crashed.13:20
jrayhawk_huh13:20
kanzure.title http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LBHVKFCoYFc13:23
yoleauxConcrete Canvas Shelters '0913:23
kanzure.title http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LBHVKFCoYFc xyz13:23
yoleauxkanzure: Sorry, that command (.title) crashed.13:23
jrayhawk_ah13:23
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kanzurei am not getting opencascade's "shape container" class style13:37
kanzurean instance of the class has methods like setShape, getCurrentShape, and makeSphere, makePrism, whatever.. and they seem to override the existing shape that the instance refers to?13:38
kanzurewhy would you possibly want that13:38
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dbolserhttp://www.annualreviews.org/doi/pdf/10.1146/annurev.ge.11.120177.000455 ?14:04
paperbothttp://libgen.org/scimag/get.php?doi=10.1146%2Fannurev.ge.11.120177.00045514:05
dbolserpaperbot: wut?14:05
kanzureit was trying to be helpful14:06
dbolser;-)14:06
dbolserI've proxied in14:06
dbolserso I've got it now14:07
chris_99http://hackaday.com/2014/05/23/homemade-liquid-nitrogen/14:07
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kanzureargh and of course everything is using std::ostream, which is annoying to wrap with swig14:11
kanzureor that pythonocc doesn't already wrap14:11
dbolserhttp://www.scribd.com/doc/225848820/PROSPECTS-FOR-PLANT-GENOME-MODIFICATION-BY-NONCONVENTIONAL-METHODS14:11
dbolser197714:11
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ParahSailinsad times, my ezproxy hookup graduated, i might have to work on paperbot now14:19
dbolserit can't be hard to get into an institute with multi access14:23
dbolserdo the publisher sites really know how to spot ip spoofing or other stuff?14:23
kanzureeskimos have 400 words for "paywall" and they are all "fuck"14:28
dbolserlol14:29
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chris_99haha14:31
ParahSailindelinquentme: did you fix that 8 line function in paperbot yet?14:34
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ParahSailinoh goddamnit, ncbi's sra format is such a piece of shit14:54
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dbolserParahSailin: try ENA15:25
dbolserIt's slightly less sucky imho15:25
dbolserParahSailin: tried google-genomics yet?15:25
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kanzurere: patents etc http://www.openbeamusa.com/blog/2014/5/22/stay-classy-makerbot15:42
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eudoxiawhat is it about japanese websites and long hosts huh15:58
QuantumGI dunno, what?15:59
eudoxiathey are pretty common15:59
eudoxialike those chinese websites where the url is all numbers15:59
QuantumGcool, like what?16:00
eudoxiaftp.tsukuba.wide.ad.jp16:00
QuantumGforum.nasaspaceflight.com16:00
QuantumGI guess yours is more parts16:01
QuantumGI remember that used to be more common before vhosts became so popular16:01
QuantumGit'd be kinda nice to have youtube.google.com and so forth16:02
kanzurethe xn---59104192094109.co.cn is just unicode16:02
kanzureas for written numbers in chinese domain names, it's because their numbering system is pleasant to say and remember16:03
kanzureall mathematical innovation in number theory comes from countries where it is awful to say the longer numbers16:03
kanzurehere's a patent reform proposal http://www.brookings.edu/~/media/research/files/papers/2006/12/technology%20lichtman/200612lichtman.pdf16:11
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gnushahttps://secure.diyhpl.us/cgit/diyhpluswiki/commit/?id=0db53c6c Bryan Bishop: sigh, another abbreviation >> http://diyhpl.us/diyhpluswiki/cad/opencascade/17:12
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justanotheruserkanzure: how do I forge git logs?17:57
kanzuregit fast-import17:57
kanzureset $GIT_AUTHOR_NAME $GIT_AUTHOR_EMAIL $GIT_AUTHOR_DATE $GIT_COMMITTER_NAME $GIT_COMMITTER_DATE and then run git commit17:58
kanzureall sorts of ways17:58
kanzureerm and $GIT_COMMITTER_EMAIL17:58
justanotheruserthanks17:58
kanzureforging evidence?17:59
justanotheruserkanzure: perhaps18:05
justanotheruserperhaps I just want my github to look more impressive18:05
kanzurehttps://github.com/gelstudios/gitfiti18:07
kanzurehttps://github.com/mappum/gitbanner18:07
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kanzureyou could also just, you know, do lots of work..18:08
justanotheruserkanzure: i will, but it will be in the past18:09
justanotherusergitbanners pretty cool :)18:10
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eudoxiaspeaking of forging git logs18:11
eudoxiai fucked up a couple of days and made too many commits, and now the rest of my banner looks yellower :C18:11
justanotherusereudoxia: does your client load logs from diyhpl?18:11
eudoxiaclient?18:12
justanotheruserirc18:12
eudoxiano18:12
kanzurehe manually refreshes18:12
justanotheruseroh18:12
eudoxiaoh you mean gnusha.org/logs18:13
eudoxiayes i refresh manually, and i guess kanzure probably has a statistical sample of all my visits to his sites :)18:13
kanzurei'm not the nsa (most of the time)18:13
eudoxiayou're the nsa of mostly-publicly-available data18:14
kanzurewell what do you think the internet archive is, a public charity?18:14
kanzureoh wait18:14
jrayhawk_i tried to make logs work over 'Transfer-Encoding: chunked' once, but then i found out that browsers don't actually support it18:20
jrayhawk_i hate the web18:20
eudoxiahttp://alcor.org/Library/html/casesummary2531.html :<18:31
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kanzure.title18:32
yoleauxAlcor Case Summary: A-253118:32
kanzurewhen it turns out that old preservation techniques were not sufficient, are they going to immediately dump the corpsicles?18:33
eudoxiakanzure: "indistinguishable from magic!", max more shouts across a room full of dewars18:34
QuantumGkanzure...18:39
kanzure"nanotech!"18:42
kanzure"nanotech will travel back in time and fix your mistakes"18:43
kanzure"and also, it will reassemble humans from ash"18:43
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QuantumGso kanzure..18:58
kanzuresup19:02
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kanzurehe is angry about the logs being public :\19:09
eudoxiahow else are people going to know what a cool place this is19:10
kanzuremore importantly, how am i going to maintain this rate of running into myself with random queries on search engines?19:12
kanzurei don't think this place would work if it was private and invite-only19:17
eudoxiayeah19:19
eudoxiai might have less crazy people but i don't think its worth it19:19
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kanzurethere's a surprisingly large number of people who counter with "the patent system encourages innovation"20:30
kanzure.title http://www.wipo.int/ipstats/en/resources/patent_systems.html20:31
yoleauxWIPO Index of Patent Systems20:31
justanotheruserkanzure: Have you read "The Case Against IP"?20:31
kanzureno, but i probably shouldn't20:34
kanzureat this point the case against the patent system is rather trivial20:34
justanotheruserkanzure: which is?20:35
kanzureand it would just be self-indulgent of me to bother to read "the case against ip" or even "against intellectual property"20:35
kanzurewell, for one, studies that show that it doesn't work, like20:36
kanzurehttp://archive.mises.org/18812/andrew-torrance-patents-and-the-regress-of-useful-arts/20:36
kanzurebut also stuff like this one:20:36
kanzure.title http://www.dklevine.com/general/intellectual/againstfinal.htm20:36
yoleauxAgainst Intellectual Monopoly20:36
kanzuremy proposal the other day was that the patent system could be reformed by transitioning away from technology-oriented patents to technology-free patents, where the technology component is not included20:37
kanzurethis has lots of advantages, one of which is freeing up the patent office's backlog of 800,000 patent applications that are extremely expensive to evaluate20:37
kanzuredecoupled patents would take less than a second to evaluate for the patent office20:38
justanotheruserkanzure: the case against patents is so trivial that you need to link me to a book 300 pages long to explain it?20:38
kanzureand they could even explicitly state how much the owner is owed as a percentage of the revenue of whatever industry the patent concerns20:38
kanzure300 pages is not much!20:38
justanotheruserkanzure: the book I references was 8020:38
justanotheruserso I'm not sure why the triviality of the case against the patent system should require you to read 220 more pages20:39
kanzureyou wanted something else from me instead?20:39
justanotheruserkanzure: No, it is just confusing that you implied that the book I referenced doesn't need to be read because the explanation was trivial20:40
justanotheruserThen linked to a 300 page book20:40
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kanzurewell, now you have links to books i guess20:41
justanotheruserOkay. Well does it go from a libertarian perspective? Or a utility perspective?20:42
justanotheruserBecause I've read the libertarian perspective, but not the utilitarian perspecitve20:42
kanzurei'm not sure i'm well versed in either of those words enough to say20:42
justanotheruserkanzure: does it argue that patents infringe on your property rights because you can't manipulate your property in a certain way that infringes the patents, or something else?20:43
kanzurei haven't read it20:43
justanotheruserBecause the entire premise of that book I read was that property rights came before utility.20:44
justanotheruserRather, the government giving allowing maximum property rights was more important than the government increasing utility.20:44
kanzurethe origin of patents was not technology or innovation20:45
kanzurerather, it was a way for a government to grant to a company the rights to some entire section of commerce20:45
kanzureand then somehow technology got sucked into it somehow, probably because of kingly propaganda about how glorious the patent system was and how efficient it was20:45
justanotheruserkanzure: so there is incentive to create a medication if someone can reverse engineer and produce it?20:46
justanotherusers/there is/is there20:46
kanzureyep, i will absolutely fuck your patent over to save my own life20:47
kanzure(for example)20:47
gradstudentbotNon-binding electrons are completely useless, they should just leave.20:47
justanotheruserkanzure: yes, but if company A spent $20M researching and creating a drug, company B could just make it too20:48
kanzureso what?20:48
justanotheruserand their prices would be a race to the bottom20:48
justanotheruserSo what would incentivize the company to create the $20M medication in the first place?20:48
kanzureit is extremely common to overpay for technical things because nobody knows the true prices of laboratory equipment20:48
kanzures/nobody knows/almost nobody knows20:49
kanzurei would argue that in the absence of incentives (like, say, profit), you should probably just focus on making medication-making cheaper in the first place20:49
kanzuremost of the equipment is just a lightbulb and a resistor and some $2 microcontrollers, but let's mark that up 20,000% and say it's because i'm saving your life20:49
justanotheruserSo you think it would be cheaper to research for a drug without patents?20:50
kanzureyou sound like you're on a script20:50
justanotheruserkanzure: an antibiotic20:50
kanzurei am not interested in having a conversation where you ask me the same questions you ask everyone about incentives for investment in biotech in the absence of patents20:50
kanzurean alternative model is medical innovation prize pools, for example20:51
justanotheruserokay20:51
kanzurehttp://diyhpl.us/wiki/transcripts/open-science-summit-2010/aiden-hollis-health-impact-fund/20:51
kanzurehttp://diyhpl.us/wiki/transcripts/open-science-summit-2010/jamie-love-knowledge-ecology-international/20:51
kanzurehmm read those in the opposite order, otherwise wont make sense(?)20:51
kanzurea lot of those $100k drugs it mentions in the first few paragraphs are totally bogus-- i mean they work, but also it's just an antibody that you can build on your own for <$30k in equipment and your time20:52
kanzurenevermind, maybe i did do the right linking order..20:55
justanotheruserkanzure: oh, well I'm reading it in the wrong order then20:57
kanzurejustanotheruser: i don't have any ideas for this yet but i was thinking there might be some way to implement an innovation prize pool using bitcoin or some related technology21:02
justanotheruserkanzure: I see21:02
kanzureor something along those lines.. i don't mean "patents in the blockchain", because that model is broken and wrong and doesn't make sense21:02
justanotheruserWhat about Bitcoin would make this better?21:03
justanotheruserIt seems you just need to coerce people with guns to pay for this, or you need a group of very charitable people21:03
kanzurethere's also a third option, where people who need to develop the technology simply do so, and then show others how to build it because they want to or would find it useful to do so21:04
justanotheruserBetter than with USD I mean21:04
kanzurelike, scientists weren't coerced with guns, or given lots of money, they just did whatever they wanted21:05
justanotheruserkanzure: wouldn't they be considered a group of charitable people then because they're paying (money or opportunity cost) to discover drugs/products and giving them out freely?21:05
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kanzuremaybe, but let's say that i want to fly, and i invent a flying machine so that i can fly, maybe i consider the fact that i fly the reward?21:06
kanzure(or maybe i had other reasons to be wanting to do that, related to payoff)21:06
justanotheruserkanzure: maybe, but you need to feed yourself too21:08
justanotheruserAnd if someone can manufacture a product better than you before you make back your initial investment, you lose money21:08
kanzureif someone can sell better than you, you lose money, regardless of manufacturing21:09
justanotheruserYes, I should have said sell21:09
justanotheruserBut how is that problem solved without an artificial government enforced monopoly21:09
kanzure"there are only a limited number of players that should be able to make money in a certain area of commerce at any given time"?21:11
kanzurethat seems to be what your statement boils down to?21:11
kanzurebtw, i find that statement highly interesting, because my "decouple technology from patents" proposal was based on exactly that: make the patent office more efficient by just evaluating patents w.r.t their areas of commerce or something, don't evaluate technology, and just doll out the monopoly grants (and be explicit about it, instead of leaving it up to a judge)21:12
justanotheruserkanzure: My statement boils down to "should there only be a limited number of players that should be able to make money in a certain area of commerce at any given time"?21:13
justanotheruserAnd if there is the problem of lack of reason to invent solved21:14
kanzureyeah, that's what it sounds like to me21:14
kanzurefor example, even in the absence of you owning patents for certain technologies, "if someone can outsell you, you lose money, which is bad"21:14
kanzureand you asked "But how is that problem solved without an artificial government enforced monopoly"21:14
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kanzureso maybe the government still grants those monopolies, but don't drag technology into it just because21:15
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kanzurecluckj: where are you when i need you most21:18
kanzurehttp://firedoglake.com/2012/05/14/lawrence-lessig-testimony-on-open-source-dividend-prizes-2/21:20
kanzurei'm actually not very convinced by the prize pool concept21:21
kanzureit would work (people would get paid, i'm sure), but i dunno if "are people getting paid?" is the only question that matters in this context21:23
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delinquentmeI'm blown away by what is patentable: https://www.google.com/patents/WO2006113727A2?cl=en&dq=Sam+Sia+claros&hl=en&sa=X&ei=ARqAU8DMLYyJogT0yYCYCg&ved=0CEMQ6AEwAg21:40
delinquentmemeandering channels used to create a wide area of measurement.21:41
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jrayhawk_18:21 < jrayhawk_> i tried to make logs work over 'Transfer-Encoding: chunked' once, but then i found out that browsers don't actually support it22:14
jrayhawk_18:21 < jrayhawk_> i hate the web22:14
jrayhawk_actually i guess that's not quite true; elinks supported it22:14
jrayhawk_kind of like how elinks is the only browser to support ADH in its SSL suite22:14
jrayhawk_and links2 is the only browser that supports image resizing22:15
jrayhawk_what is it with the twibright folks22:15
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jrayhawk_is the web just completely different in czechlandia? like, everything just works and everyone cares about sane architecture?22:21
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@fenn"Gestalt is an accessible and flexible control framework which aims to augment the ability of individuals to create new automated tools, and thus to self-extend their abilities to create objects which would be too tedious or impossible to create by hand. This work will enable individuals to rapidly construct controllers and rich user interfaces for automated personal fabrication tools."23:45
@fennhttp://pygestalt.org/VMC_IEM.pdf23:45
@fennperhaps a better explanation of pygestalt: http://mtm.cba.mit.edu/machines/stages/23:46
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@fenni think their floating rod ways really suck23:54
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--- Log closed Sat May 24 00:00:14 2014

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