| --- Log opened Fri Jun 06 00:00:26 2014 | ||
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| kanzure | hm maybe subject for microfabrication http://www.mindtribe.com/2014/06/the-single-transistor-radio/ | 00:17 |
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| nmz787 | sooo | 00:30 |
| nmz787 | found these http://www.alltronics.com/cgi-bin/item/22Z003/32/Esterline-Instrument-Corp-201CE | 00:30 |
| nmz787 | http://www.alltronics.com/cgi-bin/item/25L014/30/Avimo-201-060-004-Fiber-Optics-Beamsplitter | 00:30 |
| nmz787 | http://www.alltronics.com/cgi-bin/item/04L019/30E/Laser-Beamsplitter | 00:30 |
| nmz787 | " As far as we can tell, this is part of a Raman cell or maybe from some other liquid or pressure cell designed to be probed by a green laser" | 00:31 |
| nmz787 | $9.95 | 00:31 |
| nmz787 | https://i.chzbgr.com/maxW500/5673559808/h36230ECA/ | 00:31 |
| nmz787 | or if you want a more descriptive URL https://i.chzbgr.com/maxW500/5673559808/h36230ECA/ | 00:32 |
| nmz787 | http://knowyourmeme.com/memes/futurama-fry-not-sure-if | 00:32 |
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| kanzure | hm i should play with an optics simulator thing | 06:56 |
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| kanzure | paperbot: http://www.plosone.org/article/info%3Adoi%2F10.1371%2Fjournal.pone.0083325 | 07:21 |
| kanzure | .title | 07:21 |
| paperbot | http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/paperbot/Identifiable%20Images%20of%20Bystanders%20Extracted%20from%20Corneal%20Reflections.pdf | 07:21 |
| yoleaux | PLOS ONE: Identifiable Images of Bystanders Extracted from Corneal Reflections | 07:21 |
| kanzure | wait, steve jurvetson took that photo of obama? the transhumanist hypersingularitarian venture capitalist steve jurvetson? hm.. | 07:22 |
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| kanzure | what's the name of the mechanism for the exchange of two items between untrusting parties? the one with plexiglass/glass/metal between both participants. | 07:43 |
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| kanzure | pfft http://www.nytimes.com/2014/03/16/science/billionaires-with-big-ideas-are-privatizing-american-science.html | 08:09 |
| kanzure | (pay no attention to the multi-trillion dollar pharmaceutical markets..) | 08:09 |
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| kanzure | /win 3 | 09:32 |
| kanzure | gah | 09:32 |
| kanzure | "Representing exact numbers visually using a mental abacus" http://langcog.stanford.edu/papers/FB-inpress.pdf | 09:40 |
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| kanzure | .title https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NjugIM6u2vQ | 10:58 |
| yoleaux | Inexpensive Method for the Duplication of Microfluidic Devices - Black Box Labs | 10:58 |
| kanzure | so the people who did the microscope photolithography setup are in san diego: http://www.blackboxlabs.us/research.html | 10:59 |
| nmz787_i1 | they also have a video of making a vacuum chamber and combining that with a microwave to make a plasma bonder | 11:04 |
| kanzure | related company is http://www.epsilonmicrodevices.com/ | 11:05 |
| kanzure | "Open Source Plasma Bonder" | 11:05 |
| kanzure | "We offer the Oxygen Plasma Bonder with vacuum gauge for $995.00 which also includes a vacuum gauge and oxygen tank (within continental U.S.). For security and export reasons, we do not ship oxygen internationally. The microwave is not included." | 11:06 |
| kanzure | export reasons... haha. | 11:06 |
| kanzure | .title https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rll6Zo1go5s | 11:06 |
| yoleaux | Plasma Bonder | 11:06 |
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| FourFire | kanzure, cool demo | 11:12 |
| kanzure | stalk: Bajeel Mehta <lajeeb2@gmail.com> and John Waynelovich <johnlukew@gmail.com> | 11:13 |
| kanzure | .title https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N-R0_nXpc7I | 11:15 |
| yoleaux | Homemade Oxygen Plasma Etcher & PDMS to Glass Bonding Test - Black Box Labs | 11:15 |
| kanzure | oh you know these guys... ntm787 is you. | 11:16 |
| nmz787_i1 | yes | 11:16 |
| kanzure | talked with them? | 11:16 |
| nmz787_i1 | one of my 3 youtube IDs because for some reason I can't merge them | 11:16 |
| nmz787_i1 | no, i dont think so | 11:16 |
| nmz787_i1 | maybe i should? | 11:17 |
| kanzure | i emailed them a few minutes ago asking where to send the check (for their $1k dlp micro lithography thing) | 11:17 |
| kanzure | "Yo dawg, I'd like to acquire your buttlicious photolithography product. Might I enquire wherest I should send the bitcoin transaction to? k snap out of, later alligator, nah just kidding homedoge" | 11:19 |
| chris_99 | heh | 11:20 |
| nmz787_i1 | You might have actually done that. | 11:20 |
| FourFire | "buttlicious" | 11:21 |
| FourFire | "homedoge" | 11:21 |
| kanzure | you have to speak the language of commerce | 11:21 |
| FourFire | what node does it etch in? | 11:22 |
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| kanzure | what? | 11:42 |
| chris_99 | the language of commerce haha | 11:43 |
| FourFire | kanzure, the photolithography product you wanted to order | 11:43 |
| FourFire | node as in nm node | 11:43 |
| FourFire | > || < 150nm ? | 11:44 |
| kanzure | why would it have to be nm? | 11:44 |
| kanzure | and what's a node | 11:44 |
| FourFire | kanzure, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/250_nanometer | 11:45 |
| FourFire | (or am I completely wrong in my assumption of what it's supposed to do?=) | 11:45 |
| kanzure | "nodes" is only mentioned once on this page http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:International_Technology_Roadmap_for_Semiconductors_lithography_nodes | 11:46 |
| kanzure | well, twice | 11:46 |
| kanzure | "A node is a point along a standing wave where the wave has minimum amplitude" | 11:48 |
| chris_99 | that's the only node i've heard of in the context of standing waves | 11:49 |
| kanzure | i'm not sure the amplitude matters | 11:49 |
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| kanzure | anyway, nm wavelength is not necessary | 11:51 |
| kanzure | you can get a lot done just playing with micrometers | 11:51 |
| kanzure | oops wait, yes nm wavelength is necessary (most of the photoresists cure between 300-1200 nm) | 11:52 |
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| FourFire | I don't know whether you are mocking me, or if I'm just being overly obtuse | 11:56 |
| nmz787_i1 | asking what node does it etch in is confusing a bit to me too | 11:56 |
| FourFire | A "node" in the semiconductor industry is a different name for the feature size of ICs, so Intel currently produces processors at the 22nm "node" (well 14nm by now) | 11:57 |
| FourFire | I'm asking, how small can it draw things? | 11:57 |
| kanzure | they should stop using that word | 11:57 |
| kanzure | or they hsould call it a wave node | 11:57 |
| kanzure | *should | 11:57 |
| kanzure | hell, nmz787_i1 even works at intel and he's confused | 11:57 |
| FourFire | (or does that machine do something else entirely?) | 11:58 |
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| kanzure | the plasma bonder does something else; a photolithography setup shoots photons at photoresists to cure regions of the surface/material | 11:58 |
| kanzure | i am not aiming for nm feature sizes | 11:59 |
| FourFire | ok, that's good, an answer, what size then? | 11:59 |
| kanzure | i already told you micrometer :( | 11:59 |
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| nmz787_i1 | most photoresist is in the 300-600nm cure range | 12:03 |
| nmz787_i1 | 'peak absorbtion' | 12:03 |
| nmz787_i1 | but intel is getting 22nm not through a more UV colored photon, they're using interference of UV photons | 12:03 |
| nmz787_i1 | 'more-UV colored' | 12:03 |
| nmz787_i1 | (i'm correcting my first ref, not the second ref to UV) | 12:04 |
| nmz787_i1 | so likely that system kanzure showed uses a white light source, or a 405nm laser | 12:04 |
| nmz787_i1 | or led | 12:04 |
| nmz787_i1 | but it sounded like DLP | 12:05 |
| nmz787_i1 | so I think either an expanded 405nm laser or a white light with decent UV output | 12:05 |
| nmz787_i1 | but that's just the photon wavelength | 12:05 |
| kanzure | hm actually that guy with the dlp photolithography thing is renting out an apartment for bitcoin: https://twitter.com/black_box_labs | 12:05 |
| kanzure | maybe i should just move there and pester him | 12:05 |
| nmz787_i1 | you also have to consider the optics, the spot size the beam produces | 12:05 |
| kanzure | well, there are two systems on his page | 12:06 |
| kanzure | one is dlp the other is the uv led thing | 12:06 |
| nmz787_i1 | kanzure: did you read the screw valve paper? | 12:06 |
| nmz787_i1 | it seems like valves may be easier than expected to fab | 12:07 |
| kanzure | i would argue that valveless is always easier | 12:07 |
| FourFire | thanks, I didn't see that. | 12:11 |
| @fenn | sup homedoges | 12:11 |
| kanzure | same old same old.. it's like herding highly inertial cats up a river. | 12:13 |
| @fenn | you need a boat | 12:13 |
| @fenn | or i need a boat | 12:13 |
| kanzure | an engineer would just re-route the river | 12:14 |
| @fenn | a netsphere engineer would just reprogram the river | 12:14 |
| kanzure | all we need is a few thousand man years of effort | 12:14 |
| kanzure | these guys claim their microfluidic micro lithography stuff is for "citizen scientists": | 12:14 |
| kanzure | https://newscenter.sdsu.edu/engineering/images/zahn_epsilonmicroglossy.pdf | 12:14 |
| @fenn | don't make me read pdf | 12:15 |
| kanzure | i already told you the relevant part | 12:15 |
| @fenn | who's representing the "slave scientists" | 12:16 |
| @fenn | or other non-citizen castes | 12:16 |
| kanzure | it's weird though that they haven't emailed diybio about it if that's their marketing plan | 12:16 |
| kanzure | so, roman was bitching at me about how the world doesn't need another open source cad | 12:17 |
| @fenn | "another" implies that one exists | 12:17 |
| kanzure | "I have read that commercial kernels represent investments of 400+ person-years. That seems reasonable and OCC is likely about the same scale. Another reference is that RGK (Russian Geometric Kernel) the government sponsored project took $20M, and only for the first phase. With that, I am skeptical that setting a goal of having one more modeling kernel would be reasonable one." | 12:17 |
| kanzure | brlcad is technically capable of reading/writing files, which was one of the goals you mentioned | 12:18 |
| @fenn | i thought we established in "the mythical man month" that person-years was a fallacy | 12:18 |
| kanzure | yes but russia probably doesn't know that | 12:18 |
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| kanzure | aren't they the country that hired tens of millions of science labor | 12:19 |
| kanzure | *laborers | 12:19 |
| @fenn | anyway, i would use brl-cad's STEP importer for sure | 12:19 |
| FourFire | kanzure, do they know about diybio ? | 12:19 |
| kanzure | how could they not know about diybio.. all of the "citizen science" hype lately has /mostly/ been about diybio | 12:19 |
| kanzure | there has been some other fringe crap, but by far diybio has been where anyone actually is | 12:19 |
| kanzure | fenn, i just mean, i can't tell roman "because i want unicorn-rare beautiful code, wah" | 12:20 |
| kanzure | waeh | 12:21 |
| @fenn | it's not unreasonable to want code that doesn't crash constantly and is possible to modify | 12:22 |
| @fenn | how many lines of code is OCC? | 12:22 |
| kanzure | at least a few million | 12:22 |
| kanzure | (i checked a while back) | 12:22 |
| @fenn | ok so who is going to fix that? | 12:22 |
| @fenn | (according to lygin) | 12:22 |
| @fenn | or does he even acknowledge that it has problems? | 12:23 |
| kanzure | i'm p. sure he acknowledges that it has problems, given his blog posts about the crashes and bugs | 12:23 |
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| kanzure | there is a certain argument about not always throwing away legacy code, but i currently forget the exact argument | 12:23 |
| kanzure | it's something like, "rewriting it is high-risk and extremely costly, compared to the ongoing maintenance cost" | 12:24 |
| @fenn | someone found a bug and put an ugly hack in place so you don't have to | 12:24 |
| @fenn | something about compatibilities with other broken software | 12:24 |
| @fenn | "because internet explorer" | 12:24 |
| @fenn | has anyone heard of a "polariton"? | 12:24 |
| @fenn | https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polariton | 12:25 |
| kanzure | .gc site:arxiv.org polariton | 12:26 |
| yoleaux | 7,380 (site), 7,270 (end), 5,660 (api) | 12:26 |
| kanzure | fenn, so what's the argument for open source cad then? | 12:27 |
| kanzure | fenn: especially given that "read/write needs to be possible by other members on open source hardware teams" is answerable by "use brlcad" | 12:28 |
| @fenn | i'm really confused | 12:29 |
| @fenn | 1) brlcad is open source | 12:29 |
| @fenn | 2) brlcad is not usable | 12:29 |
| kanzure | "then you should focus on making brlcad usable" | 12:30 |
| @fenn | i agree | 12:30 |
| kanzure | i thought the argument was something like, brlcad only barely implements the right primitives | 12:30 |
| @fenn | why is nobody doing this? | 12:30 |
| @fenn | brlcad has a zillion primitives, it's the UI that is unworkable | 12:30 |
| @fenn | it needs at a bare minimum to support openGL | 12:31 |
| kanzure | the primitives are all wrong though | 12:31 |
| @fenn | a good goal would be feature trees with infinite undo | 12:31 |
| kanzure | it's all csg | 12:31 |
| kanzure | nobody thinks about their device in terms of combining spheres and triangles | 12:31 |
| @fenn | does it not also do nurbs patches? | 12:32 |
| @fenn | also, what the fuck is wrong with everyone? what's wrong with spheres and triangles? | 12:32 |
| kanzure | it does do nurbs things, and recently (2012) someone during GSoC implemented nurbs-nurbs intersection stuff, although the code was not clear and i'm not convinced it's a complete implementation | 12:32 |
| @fenn | i don't trust GSoC code | 12:33 |
| kanzure | well, i was going to say that, but there's no reason to discriminate against students | 12:33 |
| @fenn | heh yes there is | 12:33 |
| kanzure | hm? | 12:33 |
| @fenn | "they don't know what they're doing" | 12:33 |
| kanzure | well why did this one? | 12:34 |
| kanzure | http://brlcad.org/wiki/User:Phoenix#GSoC_2012_Project | 12:35 |
| kanzure | http://brlcad.org/wiki/User:Phoenix#GSoC_2013_Project | 12:35 |
| @fenn | drop subtopic "GSoC" from ##hplusroadmap where $date == "today" | 12:35 |
| @fenn | so, brlcad is possible to understand | 12:36 |
| @fenn | people are even making additions to it | 12:36 |
| kanzure | "The week 7 is the mid-term evaluations. During the first half of GSoC, I focused on the NURBS intersections, implemented P/P, P/C, P/S, C/C, C/S intersections, and also made lots of improvements on the SSI implemented last year, e.g. Newton iterations, overlap cases. Now according to the schedule, we are going to the next half of GSoC next week, and I'll start working on evaluating NURBS booleans. A friendly remind of how to tests my ... | 12:37 |
| kanzure | ... results. If you want to have a quick test on P/P, P/C and P/S, you can run src/libbrep/test_point_intersect, or src/libbrep/test_curve_intersect for C/C and C/S. If you want to test SSI, you need to run librt/tests/test_ssi, but it doesn't have build-in test cases, so you need to specify a .g file, and the objects in it. Also, you can use the brep command in MGED, which can test all of these six intersections." | 12:37 |
| @fenn | why is there so little "open source" cred around it? brlcad is not even in debian? | 12:37 |
| kanzure | sure it's in debian | 12:37 |
| kanzure | "During GSoC '13, I implemented 6 independent intersection routines (point/point, point/curve, point/surface, curve/curve, curve/surface and surface/surface), tested and verified them, and they proved to be robust with the input I gave (even the extreme case). The most challenging task is the overlap cases in SSI (the result is 2D rather than 1D), which takes several weeks and hundreds lines of code." | 12:38 |
| kanzure | "After mid-term evaluation, I started to focus on NURBS boolean evaluations with the well-performed intersection routines. The main steps include splitting a trimmed face, inside/outside tests and forming the final b-rep structure. I'm pleased that I stayed on schedule during all these time, and finally finished a working NURBS evaluation routine and COMB conversion. Connectivity graphs take quite a lot of time to implement, and still not ... | 12:38 |
| kanzure | ... completed in some way (e.g. the information lost after the evaluation, because the edges are not shared), but it doesn't effect the performance a lot so finally we just disable this option. If it turns out to be useful later, we can enable it again, and do some modifications if needed." | 12:38 |
| @fenn | https://packages.debian.org/search?keywords=brlcad&searchon=names&suite=all§ion=all http://packages.ubuntu.com/search?keywords=brlcad&searchon=names&suite=all§ion=all | 12:39 |
| @fenn | must be a special invisible package | 12:39 |
| @fenn | stealth cloaking technology | 12:39 |
| kanzure | well for some reason aptitude is showing that the package exists on my end | 12:40 |
| @fenn | you probably built it with checkinstall | 12:40 |
| @fenn | or is it in some ppa? | 12:41 |
| kanzure | hmm http://blends.debian.org/science/tasks/engineering claims that a debian package is not available, but at minimum there is https://github.com/tbrowder/brlcad-debian-package | 12:41 |
| @fenn | ok that's good but it's not a package | 12:42 |
| @fenn | why the hell are they using svn | 12:43 |
| kanzure | make jrayhawk do it | 12:43 |
| kanzure | brlcad has been slowly switching over to git lately | 12:43 |
| kanzure | also, i would argue that python-brlcad is a good vehicle for making it easier to use | 12:44 |
| @fenn | yes, compiling bolt.c and linking it in /usr/bin is not a good strategy for macros | 12:45 |
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| kanzure | main problem with python-brlcad is that i have not thought about simplifying the brlcad api | 12:46 |
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| @fenn | i like this rendering style http://ronja.twibright.com/3d/ | 12:49 |
| @fenn | i wonder if it's possible to do with opengl shaders | 12:49 |
| kanzure | that's "w" in brlcad mged | 12:49 |
| kanzure | oh sorry, i am thinking of opencascade actually | 12:49 |
| @fenn | this seems to be based on surface normals | 12:50 |
| @fenn | probably a pixel based method | 12:50 |
| * fenn mumbles something about "rtedge" | 12:51 | |
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| @fenn | .g snuffeluffegus | 12:52 |
| yoleaux | http://www.reddit.com/user/snuffeluffegus | 12:52 |
| @fenn | "The rtedge command will render a hidden-line image of the specified geometry database model. This hidden line image is a raster image that is similar to what is desired for drafting documentation where the model is drawn as a series of contour edges." | 12:53 |
| @fenn | "BRL-CAD can render hidden line drawings using rtedge, but the images it generates are raster images (consisting of pixels) rather than vector drawings (based on lines and curves). This is often suboptimal - line drawings are often edited and rescaled using vector based editing programs, and rtedge output must be manually traced in order to be used in those environments." | 12:54 |
| kanzure | huh? | 12:55 |
| kanzure | if you intersect a plane, and then take all of the intersected objects, those are your vectors i think | 12:56 |
| kanzure | or at least, vector-drawable objects | 12:56 |
| @fenn | this is talking about outlines, which are a projection, not an intersection | 12:56 |
| @fenn | also, deciding what to consider a corner is a tricky problem | 12:57 |
| kanzure | have you used python-brlcad yet? | 12:58 |
| @fenn | for example these nuts are sorta flush with the end of the bolts so the algorithm doesn't consider it an edge http://ronja.twibright.com/3d/railing_s3.png | 12:58 |
| @fenn | i havent used python-brlcad yet | 12:59 |
| snuffeluffegus | o.0 | 13:00 |
| snuffeluffegus | like I'd be on reddit :P | 13:00 |
| snuffeluffegus | actually yeah it's me.. | 13:00 |
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| @fenn | for shame | 13:01 |
| chris_99 | heh | 13:01 |
| @fenn | this is a great image http://brlcad.org/gallery/renderings/bradley | 13:03 |
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| @fenn | different rendering styles http://brlcad.org/gallery/var/albums/renderings/bradley_rtwizard.jpg?m=1356454549 | 13:09 |
| @fenn | am wondering how they modeled all the plants, surely not in mged? http://brlcad.org/gallery/renderings/stryker_slat | 13:16 |
| kanzure | i think they actually have a tree generation routine thing | 13:18 |
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| hmatlock | python devs: this feels dirty, anyone up for correcting me: https://gist.github.com/heath/89e2fb5665076f816b5f | 13:24 |
| kanzure | use csv.DictReader instead | 13:24 |
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| ParahSailin | use .split(",") instead | 13:25 |
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| chris_99 | no | 13:26 |
| kanzure | you can use [0:len("Alabama")] | 13:26 |
| chris_99 | that wouldn't account for "hi,hi",blah | 13:26 |
| kanzure | he's obviously joking | 13:27 |
| kanzure | let him troll | 13:27 |
| chris_99 | oh ok | 13:27 |
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| nmz787_i1 | heath: sounds like you want to turn that age column into its own list, so you can call min and max on that | 13:48 |
| nmz787_i1 | oh, you want age range from a single row | 13:48 |
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| @fenn | heath you could make a list with each element an age, so the list index corresponds to the age, and you can use list slices as age ranges | 14:13 |
| @fenn | age[0:10] or whatever | 14:14 |
| @fenn | there's probably some fancy multidimensional "traits" thingy that accomplishes the same thing | 14:14 |
| kanzure | well there's an enthought python library called traits | 14:15 |
| kanzure | and numpy does lots of multidimensional things | 14:15 |
| @fenn | my abstraction fu is weak | 14:16 |
| @fenn | what is it called when you have multiple views of the same data structure? like foo['bar']==foo.bar | 14:16 |
| ParahSailin | javascript | 14:16 |
| @fenn | or circle.radius * 2 * pi == circle.circumference | 14:17 |
| @fenn | i guess that's just a property though | 14:18 |
| @fenn | pyparsing does this weird thing where the parse tree is both a list and a dict | 14:18 |
| ParahSailin | use a monad | 14:19 |
| @fenn | i'm going to just assume you're trolling | 14:19 |
| @fenn | instead of trying to figure out what a monad is :P | 14:19 |
| ParahSailin | monadic parser combinators are ossum | 14:20 |
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| kanzure | .wik monad | 14:22 |
| yoleaux | "Disambiguation: Monad" — http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monad | 14:22 |
| @fenn | kanzure: don't get trolled! | 14:22 |
| kanzure | learning haskell wouldn't be the worst thing to happen to me | 14:23 |
| @fenn | it's well known that leibniz was highly antisocial and probably invented the concept of trolling | 14:23 |
| kanzure | i've been meaning to see if he published any "patents" | 14:24 |
| kanzure | "patent" isn't mentioned on his superlong wikipedia article: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leibniz | 14:24 |
| @fenn | that was before patents, and besides, they were granted by monarchy, usually in exchange for something else | 14:25 |
| ParahSailin | https://cokmett.github.io/cokmett/ | 14:25 |
| kanzure | no, this was not before patents haha | 14:25 |
| kanzure | 1646? patents were happening before that | 14:25 |
| kanzure | england had that 1624 law about monopoly patents | 14:25 |
| @fenn | who do i complain to that the internet is broken? | 14:25 |
| kanzure | because it was already such a huge problem | 14:26 |
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| kanzure | i wonder if people just signed their work with leibniz's name as a way to get it preserved | 14:26 |
| @fenn | they may have used the same word but i doubt the system was anything like our current patent system | 14:26 |
| kanzure | or he was just the prototypical usenet troll... not sure. | 14:26 |
| kanzure | i think you would be surprised.. description of invention, various claims, boom granted a patent. | 14:27 |
| @fenn | "monads are elementary particles with blurred perceptions of one another" and so is your mom | 14:27 |
| @fenn | i've been reading "how the laser happened" and there's a whole chapter on patents | 14:28 |
| ParahSailin | http://hackage.haskell.org/package/parsers-0.11.0.1/docs/Text-Parser-Char.html | 14:28 |
| @fenn | after reading that it's really hard to accept any sort of argument about how patents encourage new technological developments | 14:28 |
| kanzure | oh please as if you had a positive opinion before reading that | 14:29 |
| @fenn | ok but this is a well known high profile invention that supposedly was a result of big companies and their intellectual property | 14:30 |
| kanzure | i'm fascinated by how strongly people believe that patents are good | 14:32 |
| @fenn | it's because they think it's central to capitalism | 14:32 |
| @fenn | or that it even has anything to do with capitalism | 14:32 |
| ParahSailin | everyone likes the idea that one day you can just live off deadweight rent | 14:32 |
| @fenn | why not advocate for basic income then? | 14:33 |
| kanzure | i think it's something like "hey, this is an easy to follow set of steps to do something, how could this possibly be bad? and also, your alternative is confusing and sounds like hard work" | 14:33 |
| @fenn | instead of suing each other for all eternity | 14:33 |
| ParahSailin | basic income doesnt make them feel special and smart i guess | 14:33 |
| kanzure | i got into an argument the other day with a few people that were essentially saying "copyright law is enough for open source hardware" | 14:34 |
| @fenn | that's what "inventor's certificates" are for :P | 14:34 |
| kanzure | except that patent law trumps copyright law.. :| | 14:34 |
| @fenn | except that copyright has nothing to do with hardware | 14:34 |
| @fenn | you can get a design patent.. | 14:34 |
| @fenn | .wik design patent | 14:34 |
| yoleaux | "In the United States, a design patent is a form of legal protection granted to the ornamental design of a functional item. Design patents are a type of industrial design right. Ornamental designs of jewelry, furniture, beverage containers (see Fig. 1) and computer icons are examples of objects that are covered by design patents." — http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Design_patent | 14:34 |
| kanzure | yes yes but the set of loopholes and automatic grants of copyright that occur in copyrightland don't occur in patent land (including design patents) | 14:35 |
| @fenn | copyright has been stretched pretty far already in being used to cover computer programs | 14:35 |
| @fenn | because a program is a "work of literature"? | 14:35 |
| kanzure | i'm surprised that the gplv3 patent provision is expected to work | 14:35 |
| @fenn | i'm surprised we haven't nuked the world yet | 14:36 |
| kanzure | shrug, little gifts | 14:36 |
| @fenn | anthropic principle | 14:36 |
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| kanzure | how many biology lab components are doable on a simple microfluidic device, if that photolithography setup was to happen? | 14:41 |
| kanzure | i remember stuff about using cd-rom-form-factor stuff for centrifugation, or using food blending machines | 14:41 |
| kanzure | thermocycling is easy with leds or something | 14:41 |
| @fenn | i liked the u-channel centrifugation better (flow separation) | 14:41 |
| @fenn | actually spinning something is complicated | 14:42 |
| kanzure | chromatography could be done with microspheres? or one of those "micro array of pdms posts"? | 14:42 |
| @fenn | thermocycling is easy with a spiral channel over temperature zones (we already discussed this a million times) | 14:42 |
| kanzure | yeah i'm convinced thermocycling is not a problem | 14:42 |
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| kanzure | i was just going through "the list" in my head (i don't really have a list, i'm just making things up that sound important) | 14:43 |
| kanzure | i should stop calling it chromatography, what it should really be called is separation and purification | 14:43 |
| @fenn | no, please continue calling it chromatography | 14:43 |
| kanzure | garoo? | 14:43 |
| @fenn | unless you mean something else | 14:43 |
| kanzure | .wik chromatography | 14:44 |
| yoleaux | "Chromatography (/ˌkroʊməˈtɒɡrəfi/; from Greek χρῶμα chroma "color" and γράφειν graphein "to write") is the collective term for a set of laboratory techniques for the separation of mixtures." — http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chromatography | 14:44 |
| kanzure | .d chromatography | 14:44 |
| yoleaux | chromatography (/ˌkrəʊməˈtɒgrəfi/): n. A technique for the separation of a mixture by passing it in solution or suspension through a medium in which the components move at different rates — http://is.gd/MXfW0D | 14:44 |
| @fenn | there are other ways to separate and purify things that are not chromatography | 14:44 |
| kanzure | yeah i don't specifically care about chromatography itself | 14:44 |
| @fenn | you could have a dialysis membrane in a microfluidic chip i guess | 14:45 |
| @fenn | or magnetic nanobeads or something | 14:45 |
| @fenn | anyway.. what was the question? | 14:45 |
| kanzure | http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/microfluidics/Membraneless%20microseparation%20by%20asymmetry%20in%20curvilinear%20laminar%20flows.pdf | 14:45 |
| @fenn | "what's a photolithography setup used for in a bio lab?" | 14:46 |
| kanzure | http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/microfluidics/Separation%20of%20suspended%20particles%20by%20asymmetric%20arrays%20of%20obstacles%20in%20microfluidic%20devices.pdf | 14:46 |
| kanzure | no, the question was: approximately how much equipment can be constructed by this tool | 14:46 |
| @fenn | all of the equipments! | 14:46 |
| @fenn | step 1: synthesize a grad student | 14:47 |
| @fenn | step 2: convince them to do your scut-work | 14:47 |
| kanzure | the common tools are centrifugation, thermocycling, electrophoresis/chromatography/separation, spectrography, storage, and then dna synthesis/sequenthesis are of course two of the less common but very useful components | 14:47 |
| @fenn | step 3: roll in the dogecoins | 14:47 |
| kanzure | another separation technique in addition to those two is "pinched flow fractionation": | 14:48 |
| kanzure | http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/microfluidics/Pinched%20Flow%20Fractionation%20-%20Continuous%20Size%20Separation%20of%20Particles%20Utilizing%20a%20Laminar%20Flow%20Profile%20in%20a%20Pinched%20Microchannel.pdf | 14:48 |
| kanzure | anyone who publishes a micron-scale photograph in a scientific publication without including a scale bar should be hanged for high treason against humanity | 14:49 |
| @fenn | that pinched flow thing is kinda cool | 14:49 |
| kanzure | no idea if it works for smaller diameter particles (those were at least 10 micron diameter?) | 14:51 |
| @fenn | what is it separating on? density? | 14:51 |
| kanzure | i'm not sure. do you mean density of the particles? | 14:52 |
| kanzure | it would be cool to see separation of dyes. i wonder if anyone has done that. | 14:53 |
| @fenn | oh, the particles have to be bigger than the width of the smaller liquid flow | 14:53 |
| @fenn | heh that's an elementary school demo, paper chromatography. or did you mean with the pinched flow technique? | 14:53 |
| kanzure | i mean a microfluidic method | 14:54 |
| kanzure | oh well. packing a device with microspheres as your chromatography column is not the end of the world. | 14:54 |
| @fenn | yep i've seen that done in microfluidic devices (gas chromatography column) | 14:54 |
| @fenn | bonus effect is you can use different particles on the same chip layout | 14:55 |
| kanzure | oops i forgot electroporation/*poration | 14:55 |
| @fenn | or have multiple columns all loaded through one port | 14:55 |
| @fenn | dude there are so many scientific methods you'll never list them all | 14:56 |
| kanzure | i am not trying to list them all | 14:56 |
| kanzure | there is a certain amount of equipment you need before you can do useful biology things | 14:56 |
| kanzure | just having a dna synthesizer is not helpful | 14:56 |
| @fenn | how about flow cytometry, does it pass the "helpful" threshold? | 14:56 |
| kanzure | what are you going to do, splash the synthete in your toilet? | 14:56 |
| @fenn | .d synthete | 14:57 |
| yoleaux | Sorry, I couldn't find a definition for 'synthete'. | 14:57 |
| kanzure | sorry my inner biologist is making up words again | 14:57 |
| kanzure | actually i'm not sure if flow cytometry is really that complicated.. just use a camera and point it at your microfluidic device, right? | 14:57 |
| kanzure | oh, you want to also separate the cells maybe? i assume that's very similar to the problem of separating 10 micron diameter particles etc | 14:57 |
| @fenn | it's actually easier in a microfluidic device | 14:57 |
| @fenn | you're sorting cells based on color or whatever | 14:58 |
| kanzure | hm when do you need to sort cells anyway? | 14:58 |
| @fenn | in a macro scale device this is done with charged droplets and electrostatic deflection | 14:58 |
| kanzure | like, in all the transfection protocols i remember, i haven't had to sort cells | 14:58 |
| @fenn | in a microfluidic device you could just use a "+" junction | 14:58 |
| @fenn | you can tag with antibodies and sort by cell type, or for counting cancer cells | 14:59 |
| @fenn | .wik flow cytometry | 14:59 |
| yoleaux | "In biotechnology, flow cytometry is a laser-based, biophysical technology employed in cell counting, cell sorting, biomarker detection and protein engineering, by suspending cells in a stream of fluid and passing them by an electronic detection apparatus." — http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flow_cytometry | 14:59 |
| kanzure | do you really need a laser? | 15:00 |
| @fenn | yes, because the droplet is too small and moves too fast otherwise | 15:00 |
| @fenn | you could use a LED instead i guess | 15:00 |
| kanzure | add lasers to everything! | 15:00 |
| kanzure | this is my laser keyboard | 15:00 |
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| @fenn | so lasers are pretty simple conceptually, they have just been explained badly just about everywhere | 15:01 |
| @fenn | in a population of particles you have a boltzmann distribution of particle energies. some of the particles toward the tail end of the distribution are in an energetic state with energies corresponding to visible light. normally a population consists mostly of "ground state" atoms and a few energized atoms. a "population inversion" is just having mostly energized particles | 15:03 |
| @fenn | a passing photon can cause an energized atom to give up its energy as a photon (in the same phase and direction as the first photon) and this can act like a cascade amplifier | 15:05 |
| kanzure | uh, my complaint about lasers isn't about the laser itself, but rather the optics usually associated (or, in cases where i need to maintain a co2 tube, i also mean co2 tubes) | 15:06 |
| @fenn | if you add two mirrors on the ends, photons that aren't traveling parallel to the mirrors fly off to the sides and don't get repeatedly amplified as they bounce back and forth, so only one mode is amplified | 15:06 |
| kanzure | by opticks i mean lenses and mirrors | 15:07 |
| kanzure | i have no idea why everyone was always cleaning my laser cutter's mirrors | 15:07 |
| @fenn | and then you need some way to add more excited molecules, which is usually done with "pumping" light, but can be done other ways too | 15:07 |
| @fenn | kanzure: because hot gunk vapors can condense on the lens and make a hot spot | 15:08 |
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| kanzure | but wasn't there a vacuum to suck out the hot gunk vapor or something | 15:08 |
| kanzure | or a fan, even | 15:08 |
| @fenn | take a magnifying glass and a bowl of pure white sugar and try to set the sugar on fire with sunlight. won't happen. but if you add a speck of dust, the dust will absorb the light rays and melt the sugar and oxidize and pretty soon you have a bubbling black cauldron | 15:08 |
| @fenn | yeah a good laser will have lens shielding gas | 15:09 |
| @fenn | certain materials (PVC, ?) will generate especially corrosive gases | 15:10 |
| @fenn | i don't really know why they don't just use long focal length lenses to keep the gases far away from the lens? | 15:10 |
| @fenn | maybe something to do with diffraction | 15:11 |
| kanzure | and now convince me to constantly maintain/fix/replace a co2 tube | 15:11 |
| @fenn | what goes wrong with them? | 15:12 |
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| kanzure | "Each laser tube requires a given amount of flowing fluid to get rid of the heat generated in its discharge region. The circulating fluid may go through either an air/fluid (radiator with a fan) or fluid/fluid (chiller) heat exchanger. It is important to provide enough flow and enough 'exchange' so as the fluid temperature will not rise much above 80 degrees F or about 27 C." | 15:13 |
| kanzure | "Always use a Flow Switch to disable laser operation in case of No Flow" | 15:13 |
| kanzure | "If you are using city water, filter it. If you are using a closed circuit flow system, check the water and change it every six weeks or so, or drop a few drops of Algaecide in the recirculator. Better yet, use diluted Dow Frost." | 15:14 |
| kanzure | hmm | 15:14 |
| @fenn | pretty sure they are using the word "fluid" wrong | 15:14 |
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| kanzure | not finding any details | 15:16 |
| @fenn | why are laser tubes expensive? it's just a tube with some mirrors | 15:16 |
| kanzure | and gas? | 15:16 |
| chris_99 | the chinese co2 ones seem cheap | 15:16 |
| kanzure | "The CO2 laser tubes found in many laser cutters/engravers only have a lifetime of around 1000 - 2000 hours, after which they need to be replaced." yes but why.. | 15:18 |
| kanzure | maybe it's co2 leakage? | 15:18 |
| kanzure | sam says: "Additional gases are normally added to the gas mixture (besides CO2) to improve efficiency and extend lifetime. The typical gas fill is: 9.5% CO2, 13.5% N2, and 77% He. Note how He is the largest constituent and CO2 isn't even second! (This also means that leakage/diffusion of He through the walls and seals of the laser tube may be a significant factor is degradation of performance and/or failure of a sealed CO2 laser to work at ... | 15:19 |
| kanzure | ... all due to age.)" | 15:19 |
| chris_99 | heh i'm on the same page | 15:20 |
| chris_99 | that's interesting about He leakage | 15:20 |
| @fenn | i am looking at http://www.synthfool.com/laser/ | 15:20 |
| kanzure | "1988 Sharplan introduces 1st sealed CO2 cylinder (which prevents leakage of gas and eliminates the need for replacement of cylinder that added maintenance cost to the Laser. Still uses DC excitation." | 15:21 |
| @fenn | why are people so interested in burning pictures into wood? | 15:21 |
| kanzure | "1988 Luxar introduces 1st sealed CO2 cylinder with RF excited gas and flexible hollow wave-guides." | 15:21 |
| kanzure | because they want to make money | 15:21 |
| kanzure | and apparently people pay for that | 15:21 |
| @fenn | that doesn't answer the question | 15:21 |
| @fenn | moms against center justified text | 15:23 |
| kanzure | "System also uses sealed tube technology (new sealed cylinder has life of about 45,000 Laser-On hours, and inexpensive refill adds another 45,000 Laser-On hours) and passes on an un- heard of 3 year warranty. " | 15:23 |
| kanzure | http://www.laserles.com/TimeLineCO2.htm | 15:24 |
| kanzure | so maybe people just aren't using sealed tubes | 15:24 |
| kanzure | "They have life expectancy of 2 to 3 years" but what happened to 45,000 "on" hours | 15:24 |
| @fenn | you can have a sealed tube that still circulates water through, or circulates gas through water | 15:24 |
| kanzure | oh maybe it's still patented or some shit | 15:25 |
| * kanzure smug | 15:25 | |
| @fenn | doubtful | 15:25 |
| kanzure | maybe someone patented it in the 90s or something | 15:25 |
| @fenn | "The down-side to this glass-blown tube, was that the tube could crack easily if the tube were not kept cool" | 15:26 |
| @fenn | now this may sound radically radical, but why not just use a metal tube | 15:26 |
| kanzure | because then you can't pass light through it? | 15:26 |
| @fenn | but the flash lamp is inside the tube anyway (or it's DC-excited) | 15:27 |
| kanzure | .title http://www.parallax-tech.com/hardseal.htm | 15:27 |
| yoleaux | Advantages of hard seal Glass to Metal technology in sealed co2 lasers | 15:27 |
| @fenn | honestly, blown-glass? | 15:27 |
| @fenn | "special glass and special metal" | 15:28 |
| kanzure | so why do their products only have a warranty of 4 years | 15:29 |
| kanzure | "180 Watt sealed co2 laser system for OEM industrial applications : $17,500." "Complete laser system --you supply water and electricity. | 15:30 |
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| kanzure | "We do NOT refill or repair RF excited CO2 laser tubes such as those manufactured by Coherent, Synrad or Universal Lasers. Reason: We only work with DC excited sealed co2 laser tubes." | 15:31 |
| kanzure | how are these guys not sued into oblivion by the other parallalogramlax people? | 15:32 |
| kanzure | the microcontroller one | 15:32 |
| kanzure | fenn, so a few days ago i figured that cheap lab equipment wasn't really enough to do anything; it has to be cheap lab equipment and enough lab equipment to actually do things. otherwise you'll just end up with a stupid openpcr sitting on your desk doing nothing.. | 15:36 |
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| kanzure | i know that's obvious when worded in that way, but from the other perspective ("let's just make a cheap centrifuge") it is not | 15:37 |
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| kanzure | ParahSailin: what other necessary biology devices am i missing? thermocycler, centrifugation, chromatography column separation, electrophoresis separation, electroporation, storage, flow cytometry, spectrography and of course dna synthesis/sequencing | 15:41 |
| kanzure | actually, maybe i just mean *poration instead of electroporation, since getting wires in there is inconvenient | 15:42 |
| kanzure | and i'm not sure how to do switching (the actual physical sorting part) for flow cytometry | 15:42 |
| kanzure | wihtout valves | 15:42 |
| kanzure | and i am assuming spectrography can be done off-chip by nmz787_i's toy | 15:43 |
| kanzure | *off-chips (i don't assume any of this stuff would be on a single chip) | 15:43 |
| kanzure | hmph what's the point if you don't include asic vlsi stuff? https://github.com/blockerupter | 15:45 |
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| @fenn | also getting chemicals is hard sometimes | 16:08 |
| @fenn | unreasonably hard | 16:08 |
| @fenn | helium in the laser tube can't be a significant part of the cost | 16:15 |
| chris_99 | get it free, from the local fusion reactor | 16:17 |
| @fenn | wouldn't that be great | 16:17 |
| chris_99 | that it would, unlimited floating balloons for all | 16:17 |
| @fenn | waste of helium | 16:18 |
| chris_99 | heh | 16:18 |
| @fenn | "Some has 20% O2 added so party people don't pass out talking like Donald Duck..." | 16:19 |
| chris_99 | haha i did not know that | 16:19 |
| @fenn | we're going to look back on this as the most wasteful stupid waste in the history of humankind | 16:20 |
| @fenn | just dumping this rare element overboard for no reason other than we don't feel like keeping it anymore | 16:20 |
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| @fenn | just gone, forever | 16:20 |
| @fenn | if you want more you have to go to jupiter ffs | 16:20 |
| chris_99 | or just build fusion reactors | 16:21 |
| @fenn | no, do the math | 16:21 |
| chris_99 | do they not produce much? | 16:22 |
| @fenn | of course not, that's the whole point of nuclear power | 16:22 |
| @fenn | otherwise we'd be having a "helium tax" for preventing atmospheric change | 16:22 |
| chris_99 | can't you use liquid hydrogen | 16:23 |
| chris_99 | for superconductors | 16:23 |
| @fenn | no, hydrogen is reactive | 16:23 |
| chris_99 | i thought it's still possibl though | 16:23 |
| @fenn | also, hydrogen is not helium | 16:23 |
| @fenn | also also, a bajillion things | 16:23 |
| chris_99 | http://ieeexplore.ieee.org/xpl/login.jsp?tp=&arnumber=4515891&url=http%3A%2F%2Fieeexplore.ieee.org%2Fiel5%2F77%2F4538104%2F04515891.pdf%3Farnumber%3D4515891 | 16:24 |
| paperbot | http://libgen.org/scimag/get.php?doi=10.1109%2FTASC.2008.920541 | 16:24 |
| chris_99 | oh paperbot works automagically | 16:24 |
| chris_99 | cool | 16:24 |
| chris_99 | who cares if it's not helium, if you can still use it, in the superconductor :) | 16:25 |
| @fenn | who cares if it's not gold, you can use platinum, so just send me all your gold | 16:25 |
| @fenn | or throw it in the ocean, who cares | 16:25 |
| chris_99 | heh | 16:26 |
| chris_99 | wouldn't liquid hydrogen be better even | 16:27 |
| @fenn | no! | 16:27 |
| @fenn | fuck off | 16:27 |
| chris_99 | why not? it's cooler | 16:27 |
| @fenn | do you even know what "hydrogen embrittlement" means? | 16:29 |
| chris_99 | oh i'm wrong about that nvm | 16:29 |
| kanzure | jrayhawk_: would you be willing to host a microscope? responsibilities would include keeping it plugged in and internet connected. also there would be an irc bot that controls where it looks. you'd also be pestered to load samples periodically. | 16:29 |
| kanzure | jrayhawk_: and it would stream video or something | 16:29 |
| kanzure | by periodically i mean when your pond sample gets boring | 16:30 |
| chris_99 | fenn, i wasn't trying to piss you off btw, i was just generally curious why you could use liquid hydrogen instead, but i can see why now | 16:31 |
| @fenn | you will be asked to sneeze on the microscope slide occasionally | 16:31 |
| @fenn | chris_99: helium is a noble gas, and hydrogen isn't. that's a big enough reason right there | 16:31 |
| kanzure | there used to be an internet-controlled microscopy service somewhere. this must have been back in 2003. | 16:32 |
| chris_99 | i'm just reading about embrittlement now, seems strange | 16:32 |
| kanzure | it was probably a java applet thing :( | 16:32 |
| @fenn | i remember the robotic garden waterer w/camera | 16:32 |
| kanzure | just some dude running a microscope for people to poke at | 16:32 |
| kanzure | !left pls | 16:33 |
| @fenn | heh | 16:33 |
| kanzure | !left 25 microns, etc.. | 16:34 |
| kanzure | it would work | 16:34 |
| kanzure | we can make it search for life forms | 16:34 |
| kanzure | search for microscopic irc life (SMILF) | 16:35 |
| @fenn | unfortunately weird acronym group hotline (UWAGH!) | 16:36 |
| chris_99 | if you used c. elegans, could people steer them around using chemical sents | 16:36 |
| chris_99 | *scents | 16:36 |
| kanzure | no, that would require some sort of multi-pipette holding system and that sounds annoying to design | 16:37 |
| kanzure | and then you'd have to get the pipette tips in the right location, and under a slide cover? | 16:37 |
| chris_99 | i was thinking of some kind of tiny matrix of pipese | 16:37 |
| chris_99 | *pipes | 16:37 |
| @fenn | just make a maze with a pipe at the inlet and outlet | 16:38 |
| @fenn | i mean start and end | 16:39 |
| kanzure | opencl would be able to recognize paramecium and cellular blobs, right? | 16:39 |
| kanzure | so the bot would be able to report when something not boring is found? | 16:39 |
| chris_99 | opencv? | 16:39 |
| @fenn | why do you want an internet microscope webcam | 16:39 |
| kanzure | doh | 16:39 |
| kanzure | opencv yes | 16:39 |
| kanzure | fenn: why not? | 16:39 |
| kanzure | fenn: they are like tiny pokemon | 16:39 |
| chris_99 | yeah i think i recall people recognising cells with it | 16:39 |
| chris_99 | haha i like the pokemon analogy | 16:40 |
| @fenn | paramecium vs milliwatt laser, fight! | 16:40 |
| kanzure | nah they die on their own eventually | 16:40 |
| @fenn | paramecium deploys lysozome attack. attack failed! | 16:40 |
| chris_99 | i choose you c. elegans | 16:41 |
| kanzure | also it's because i feel ashamed for not having thousands of hours of microscopy video already | 16:41 |
| @fenn | everyone forgot what a webcam was | 16:41 |
| @fenn | now it just means "usb camera" | 16:41 |
| kanzure | cept the porn people? | 16:41 |
| kanzure | at least others upload their microscopy videos: https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLB16E0C8E552629DE | 16:42 |
| @fenn | how do i find internet-connected streaming or refreshing camera feeds? | 16:42 |
| kanzure | .title | 16:42 |
| yoleaux | microorganisms | 16:42 |
| kanzure | fenn, ww.com | 16:42 |
| @fenn | it's all just fatasses shaking their nutsacks at the camera | 16:42 |
| kanzure | it used to be just people pointing webcams at empty rooms | 16:43 |
| @fenn | or empty rooms when the fatass is busy doing unmentionable things off camera | 16:43 |
| kanzure | .title https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q6CefMUMtv4&list=PLB16E0C8E552629DE&index=44 | 16:43 |
| @fenn | wtf i have to sign up | 16:43 |
| yoleaux | Dinoflagellates in the Weep Site | 16:43 |
| @fenn | i was thinking this one looked interesting http://upload2.camarades.com/uploads/2730422839.jpg | 16:44 |
| @fenn | (not a nutsack) | 16:44 |
| kanzure | ah here you go, | 16:47 |
| kanzure | .title https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P4idmYWMDk4&index=55&list=PLB16E0C8E552629DE | 16:47 |
| yoleaux | Video Compilation from Webcam Microscope | 16:47 |
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| kanzure | tweak labs in florence | 16:48 |
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| kanzure | heath: is that webcam still up | 16:48 |
| kanzure | i bought this thing for eleitl, http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B001BS00KK/ | 16:50 |
| kanzure | .title | 16:51 |
| yoleaux | The Apex Explorer Plus Microscope: Amazon.co.uk: Camera & Photo | 16:51 |
| @fenn | CT scan porn https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/d/d0/Webcam_CT_transmissions.OGG | 16:51 |
| @fenn | hot naked webcams | 16:51 |
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| kanzure | huh, that one doesn't have a third optical train for plugging in a camera | 16:52 |
| kanzure | ah here we go: http://www.amazon.co.uk/Apex-Microscopes-Scholar-The/dp/B002CWLMSS/ref=pd_sim_ph_10?ie=UTF8&refRID=0AABMYYE7DSWANXE8ZG0 | 16:54 |
| kanzure | this sounds fun, | 16:57 |
| kanzure | .title http://uvicrec.blogspot.com/2011/12/cnc-microscope-mk2.html | 16:57 |
| yoleaux | IC reverse engineering: CNC microscope mk2 | 16:57 |
| @fenn | why don't people use CT scanners to reconstruct cad geometry instead of this laser bullshit | 16:58 |
| kanzure | .title https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=njDytol2EUc | 16:59 |
| yoleaux | CNC microscope mk2 alpha | 16:59 |
| kanzure | hmm john mcmaster sounds like a familiar name | 16:59 |
| @fenn | it's not like it's hard to make x-rays or scintillation pixels | 16:59 |
| kanzure | holy shit, prehistory | 17:00 |
| kanzure | John McMaster <mcfluffin@gmail.com> emailed me 2007-10-03 to ask me about high vacuum atom holography stuff | 17:00 |
| kanzure | "I am a laser hobbyist and having recently stumbled upon a myriad of high vacuum equipment, I am curious to look at your atom holography project. It looked quite interesting. The reason why I found your website in the first place was I have been searching around for the book Lex and Yacc by O'Reilly and I can't find it at library or such." | 17:01 |
| kanzure | he was asking me about sophomore college things. wow. | 17:03 |
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| kanzure | oh... he is probably the siliconpr0n.org guy. <johndmcmaster@gmail.com> | 17:06 |
| kanzure | http://siliconpr0n.org/wiki/doku.php?id=donate | 17:06 |
| @fenn | .title https://www.blogger.com/profile/11714069658809228929 | 17:06 |
| yoleaux | Blogger: Profil d'utilisateur | 17:06 |
| @fenn | ffs blogger | 17:06 |
| @fenn | http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_MJhykioAWqo/TMsDkZnMbtI/AAAAAAAAAOs/fSyAL6krJjo/ci_joe.png "because knowing is half the battle" | 17:08 |
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| justanotheruser | kanzure: are you the 1%? | 17:11 |
| kanzure | why do you ask? | 17:12 |
| justanotheruser | kanzure: because you buy stuff for a bunch of people on IRC in the name of science | 17:12 |
| justanotheruser | sounds like what a scientist would do if he became a 1%er | 17:12 |
| seba- | really | 17:12 |
| kanzure | i am probably 1% | 17:13 |
| seba- | kanzure buys stuff | 17:13 |
| seba- | so cool | 17:13 |
| seba- | what will you buy me | 17:13 |
| justanotheruser | kanzure: do you work? | 17:13 |
| @fenn | buy slovenia | 17:13 |
| kanzure | justanotheruser: like a beast | 17:13 |
| seba- | yeah | 17:13 |
| justanotheruser | kanzure: do you get paid for your work? | 17:13 |
| seba- | whole country for 99 | 17:13 |
| kanzure | justanotheruser: lots of software consulting. i am very picky though. i only do remote work for new york city or san francisco. everyone else tends to not pay much.. | 17:14 |
| justanotheruser | I see | 17:14 |
| kanzure | but honestly i don't need to be working | 17:14 |
| kanzure | it's more of an inertial thing.. | 17:14 |
| @fenn | smoke em while you got em | 17:14 |
| seba- | oh well | 17:15 |
| seba- | i'm going back into books | 17:15 |
| seba- | i'm studying for exams | 17:15 |
| seba- | lol | 17:15 |
| kanzure | you can't just run a query like "WHAT WILL YOU BUY ME".. let's do something crazy, like uh, weren't you going to look at dna synthesis for me | 17:16 |
| seba- | i was just joking | 17:16 |
| @fenn | what do you think, is this really linus torvald's blog? http://torvalds-family.blogspot.com/ | 17:16 |
| seba- | i have a few cheapass projects i want to do, but i self-fund them or i get people to fund me, yay! | 17:17 |
| seba- | anyway | 17:17 |
| seba- | i have to go | 17:17 |
| seba- | bbl | 17:17 |
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| kanzure | fenn: linus posts to googleplus these days, i think | 17:20 |
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| kanzure | i am upset that i forgot about john | 17:23 |
| kanzure | it was pre-meetlog, so maybe that's an acceptable excuse | 17:23 |
| kanzure | patrik knows him.. heh. | 17:23 |
| @fenn | you obviously have the email still, maybe it's time to do some personal data mining | 17:23 |
| @fenn | parse your old emails for content and metadata | 17:23 |
| dingo | ugh linus on google plus | 17:25 |
| kanzure | haha dingo | 17:25 |
| dingo | thats the one fricken time i read somebody's google plus post | 17:25 |
| dingo | just to see what linus has to say | 17:25 |
| kanzure | doesn't he usually dessiminate important stuff by email anyway? | 17:25 |
| dingo | i do appreciate that he spends his time on linux, and not on setting up a blogging platform, if thats what its about | 17:26 |
| kanzure | fenn: it's weird how rapidly i achieved network saturation re: finding interesting internet people | 17:26 |
| dingo | i don't see the value in getting random stranger's comments... | 17:26 |
| dingo | he can post to LKML and get plenty of *quality* feedback | 17:26 |
| dingo | i guess maybe he makes posts that aren't about linux in particular, just frustrations with technology, and those, i guess, belong in a blog | 17:26 |
| kanzure | i'd like to pretend i read LKML except i don't | 17:27 |
| @fenn | but what if he wants to rant offtopic about the bat he found in his kitchen | 17:27 |
| dingo | and because of who he is, people want to read it, and that doesn't belong on LKML so | 17:27 |
| dingo | i read LKML when i'm pointed to it, hehehe, never on purpose | 17:27 |
| dingo | too high-volume for me | 17:27 |
| @fenn | how many posts per day is it up to? | 17:27 |
| kanzure | i am the king of high volume | 17:27 |
| dingo | i did do some of the free/open/net-bsd mailing lists for a while because they were low volume enough | 17:27 |
| kanzure | bring it on.. | 17:27 |
| dingo | haha 00:28 < kanzure> i am the king of high volume | 17:28 |
| dingo | you ain't kid | 17:28 |
| kanzure | what! | 17:28 |
| dingo | just the volume of typing and reading you do | 17:28 |
| kanzure | well who's at the top then | 17:28 |
| kanzure | and how do i acquire their powers | 17:28 |
| kanzure | is it drugs? tell me it is drugs. | 17:28 |
| dingo | its very valuable, whatever you call it, your high volume ability | 17:28 |
| kanzure | it is probably 90% bullshit | 17:29 |
| jrayhawk_ | kanzure: I can probably make that work. | 17:29 |
| dingo | sure but volume makes up :-) | 17:29 |
| dingo | like hey kanzure -- can you write me the same code 5 different times | 17:29 |
| dingo | I'll pick the best of 5 :-) | 17:29 |
| kanzure | jrayhawk_: cool. it would probably involve nathan receiving it and assembling it, and then him dropping it off at your place. | 17:29 |
| dingo | you'll still do it faster than most people can do it one time | 17:29 |
| dingo | i haven't bothered with code metrics at the company you were at, but i suspect there was a peak plateau, and upon your leaving, it probobly havled, even though you had 15 co-workers | 17:30 |
| kanzure | that place was funny-- i got so much praise just for not fucking up whitespacing | 17:31 |
| dingo | i mean its hard to quantify exazctly by git... you did a lot of refactoring too -- but that too, has its quality, to be able to comprehend complex systems, so i don't know... | 17:31 |
| @fenn | kanzure: you probably remember john mcmaster from homecmos: http://cmosfold.blogspot.com/ | 17:31 |
| dingo | but ifi just measured keystrokes vs. the other employees you would tower, definitely | 17:32 |
| kanzure | fenn: nope, but i realize now that he's "in on it" with azonenberg... i didn't know all the homecmos members. and i didn't realize he owned siliconpr0n.org.. | 17:32 |
| dingo | i got "windows sdm" to work last night, i'm feeling pretty good about that, so i can leave the company pretty soon, hehehe | 17:32 |
| kanzure | dingo: sdm? | 17:32 |
| dingo | it was a personal point of pride to see LS's work followed through | 17:32 |
| kanzure | dingo: always leave on a high note | 17:32 |
| dingo | we got 2 good win32/C# guys on the company now, they're both sitting in toronto -- very serious hardworking no-bullshit russians | 17:33 |
| dingo | one guy's resume cracked me up,... it began in 1983 with C and Fortran | 17:33 |
| kanzure | fenn: here's the email i sent him. it's a little pushy.. http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/johndmcmaster.txt | 17:34 |
| dingo | so i got all the various bits to work in symphony now, all the high level stuff LS envisioned, these guys can fuck with the details, its just a matter of spending all of my vacation time, hehe | 17:34 |
| dingo | i think its smart to use all your vacation before you quit, right? | 17:34 |
| kanzure | you can negotiate vacation coming into a new company actually | 17:35 |
| dingo | i mean if you quit, they're not obligaated to pay you your vacation time are they? maybe so in california, hard to say | 17:35 |
| kanzure | that's an okay idea, but also you can go into the next company and jus tsay tha-- you know, honestly, you shouldn't bother with full-time employment | 17:35 |
| dingo | this fucking world of programming... we're kings, we can dictate the crazies of accomidaations and get them | 17:36 |
| dingo | i've had a few sips of tequila, hehehehe | 17:36 |
| dingo | i best be quieting up | 17:36 |
| kanzure | so, i actually haven't shopped myself around yet for another gig | 17:36 |
| dingo | you're hanging out doing open source really? | 17:36 |
| kanzure | but one of the terms of my contract was that i would get to use their name, branding, marketing material to promote myself | 17:36 |
| kanzure | so i figure i could snug in some crazy cloud company easy enough.. but why would i want to work?? | 17:37 |
| dingo | man, i get the most satisfaction doing open sourc ework | 17:37 |
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| kanzure | ah, well, my motivations are entirely selfish and non-altruistic | 17:37 |
| dingo | just minor improvemnts to some python libraries i maintain or can contribute to would help thousands of people, vs. software i make money for, that helps hardly anybody | 17:37 |
| kanzure | well, maybe they are slightly altruistic... maybe. | 17:37 |
| kanzure | (as an accident) | 17:38 |
| dingo | some strange metric of satisfaction drives me | 17:38 |
| kanzure | have you considered drugs | 17:38 |
| @fenn | i believe the gentleman just mentioned tequila | 17:38 |
| kanzure | tequila doesn't generate motivation.. i mean, not in the quantities that you'd want | 17:39 |
| @fenn | well hey this sounds pretty familiar neh http://penguin-electronics-inventory.blogspot.com/2012/10/introduction.html | 17:39 |
| @fenn | "Once the user has designed their project they may create a bill of materials, which specifies how many of each physical device is required to build their project. We intend to include cost-minimization code which, given shipping prices from each distributor, will determine the least expensive way to purchase a given number of copies of that BOM" | 17:40 |
| kanzure | it's too bad that i can't convince azonenberg to idle in here | 17:40 |
| kanzure | i'm not going to switch everyone into #homecmos | 17:40 |
| kanzure | and that channel has been dead ever since azonenberg gave up (or lost his soul?? no clue) | 17:40 |
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| @fenn | vampires | 17:40 |
| kanzure | he's active in ##electronics at least | 17:40 |
| @fenn | ugh that channel.. | 17:41 |
| kanzure | hm? | 17:41 |
| @fenn | SNR is terrible | 17:41 |
| kanzure | well that's where you ran into me | 17:42 |
| kanzure | :silence: | 17:42 |
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| @fenn | i thought it was #physics or #space | 17:43 |
| @fenn | i remember you came into #emc asking about 'what is the accepted ontology for machining' and nobody knew what you were on about | 17:43 |
| kanzure | i knew about #emc back then? | 17:44 |
| @fenn | so mcmaster has a SEM now | 17:45 |
| kanzure | it looks like all of his stuff is very mich one-off knock-off not-meant-to-be-repeatable | 17:45 |
| kanzure | well, not intentionally unrepeatable | 17:46 |
| @fenn | yes but sometimes that's necessary to get a baseline performance estimate | 17:46 |
| -!- mode/##hplusroadmap [+o kanzure] by ChanServ | 17:47 | |
| -!- kanzure changed the topic of ##hplusroadmap to: biohacking, nootropics, transhumanism, open hardware | sponsored by george church and the NRA, banned by the Federal Death Administration (4 times) | this channel is LOGGED: http://gnusha.org/logs | http://diyhpl.us/wiki | not intentionally unrepeatable | 17:48 | |
| @fenn | "we do it twice so you don't have to" | 17:48 |
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| @fenn | seems like refurbishing old SEMs is the cool thing to do these days | 17:49 |
| @kanzure | those photolithography-in-san-diego people haven't replied yet, what's the point of running a business if you don't reply to a customer offering to buy things from you | 17:49 |
| @fenn | seems to be a common business model | 17:49 |
| @kanzure | i would expect a refurbishing economy for SEMs just like there is for all the other terrible equipment | 17:50 |
| @kanzure | i've been meaning to get yashgaroth to go talk with the azco biotech people.. they would probably be willing to give him a tour (he could pretend to be interested in employment) | 17:50 |
| @fenn | i found these people when researching electroluminescent display history; they seem pretty interesting http://www.elume.com/ | 17:50 |
| @kanzure | "sculpting microchip devices from sand".. draw with tiny stick, then put in oven? | 17:51 |
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| kanzure | "High resolution movable micro-mirror and PZT substrates display devices" | 17:55 |
| kanzure | "100 x 100 micron DLP array (Nasa project)" | 17:55 |
| kanzure | last one is at bottom of http://elume.com/rd-applications | 17:55 |
| @fenn | electroluminescent displays seem like an important component of a self replicating ecology | 17:55 |
| kanzure | why's that | 17:56 |
| @fenn | because they are relatively simple to make and have a wide variety of uses | 17:56 |
| kanzure | too bad they don't list prices for their foundry services | 17:57 |
| kanzure | i'm sure it's not good for cheap prototyping | 17:57 |
| @fenn | it seems like their main export is "expertise" | 17:57 |
| @fenn | anyway it looks very small, like they'd actually talk to you if you asked | 17:58 |
| kanzure | "no that's impossible, only professionals can make features less than 1 mm" | 17:59 |
| nmz787_i | kanzure: can you help with this http://paste.pound-python.org/show/iFoulOnCbyrLAZiGgbSS/ | 18:00 |
| nmz787_i | for some reason the stderr thread is blocking until the subprocess ends | 18:00 |
| nmz787_i | i tried changing readlines to read | 18:00 |
| nmz787_i | and also tried adjusting bufsize to -1 and 0 | 18:01 |
| nmz787_i | not dice | 18:01 |
| nmz787_i | no dice | 18:01 |
| kanzure | i dunno if you can share that through threads | 18:03 |
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| nmz787_i | it works for stdout tho | 18:04 |
| nmz787_i | i can only think the problem is that stderr doesn't send the same line ending | 18:04 |
| @fenn | some pretty funky trace patterns on this IC http://elume.com/sites/default/files/images/product-photos/dsc_3867.jpg | 18:06 |
| kanzure | nmz787_i: i am not certain but this might be a python/threading issue, GIL, etc. | 18:06 |
| kanzure | everyone in pythonland just uses Queue.Queue for message passing between threads and coroutines | 18:07 |
| kanzure | yashgaroth: you could email azco biotech and act like you want a job, ask for a tour, etc. then you can scope out their facility. | 18:07 |
| nmz787_i | i don't see the need for a queue though, as the messages are all getting appended to a textbox | 18:07 |
| yashgaroth | you think they're hiring? | 18:08 |
| kanzure | yashgaroth: all companies are always interested in talent at any time | 18:08 |
| yashgaroth | they have no need for a protein person really | 18:08 |
| kanzure | yashgaroth: ("hi, i will make you a lot of money, do you want to not hire me?") | 18:08 |
| kanzure | right, you would probably present yourself as a biology person who is interested in lab equipment | 18:09 |
| yashgaroth | what sort of information would I be hunting | 18:09 |
| kanzure | nmz787_i: maybe stream.close() is blocking | 18:10 |
| kanzure | yashgaroth: oh just general stuff.. tour their facility, scope of operations (how many employees, customers, revenue), what sort of equipment they focus on, the way their industry works (refurbishing dna synthesizers?) | 18:10 |
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| nmz787_i | kanzure: that is after the messages would be printed though | 18:11 |
| kanzure | nmz787_i: http://stefaanlippens.net/python-asynchronous-subprocess-pipe-reading | 18:11 |
| yashgaroth | but how to do that without appearing to be casing the joint | 18:11 |
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| kanzure | well, most people believe you when you say you have a background in protein stuff | 18:12 |
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| yashgaroth | but I want to get out of that and work on equipment | 18:13 |
| kanzure | obv. you don't go up to them in an email and say "Give me all of these details:" | 18:13 |
| yashgaroth | are we sure they're a for-real company, aside from someone hearing that cambrian bought stuff from them? | 18:14 |
| kanzure | i have evidence that they are real but it's not the sort of evidence i feel okay talking about in public | 18:14 |
| kanzure | if you know what i mean | 18:15 |
| yashgaroth | heh fine, good enough for me | 18:15 |
| kanzure | i thought they were in arizona for some reason | 18:15 |
| kanzure | but on further reflection, that would make no sense :) | 18:16 |
| yashgaroth | well, AZco | 18:16 |
| kanzure | sweet vindication | 18:16 |
| kanzure | three addresses: http://azcobiotech.com/contact-us.php | 18:17 |
| kanzure | i would email "J Adams" <jadams@azcobiotech.com> since he's made public appearances on the diybio mailing list (and also he's the owner?) | 18:18 |
| yashgaroth | lemme check his posts on there | 18:18 |
| kanzure | he often responds to posts about dna synthesizers | 18:19 |
| kanzure | nmz787_i: if i ship you parts to make a computer-controlled webcam microscope, would you assemble it, test it, and transfer it to jrayhawk? | 18:20 |
| @fenn | hm they are right next door to "andergene labs" a genetic testing service | 18:21 |
| nmz787_i | yashgaroth: i didn't hear they use one, i saw their equip in their lab with my own photoreceptrons | 18:22 |
| kanzure | a tour? | 18:22 |
| @fenn | here's the closest i can get to azco biotech in street view http://goo.gl/maps/OrcAL | 18:22 |
| nmz787_i | at cambrian, sort of | 18:22 |
| nmz787_i | kanzure: sure | 18:22 |
| kanzure | fenn: that does not look like a shop. hm. | 18:23 |
| nmz787_i | cnc video microscope is half of the laser etcher project | 18:23 |
| @fenn | it looks like generic office space | 18:23 |
| @fenn | probably zoned light industrial/medical | 18:23 |
| kanzure | maybe they have shop space at another address | 18:23 |
| kanzure | or maybe they outsource everything.... | 18:23 |
| @fenn | there are various medical companies and insurance companies in the same office park | 18:23 |
| kanzure | having an office is important i guess, for appearances, to other san diego companies? | 18:24 |
| @fenn | what were you expecting? an aircraft hangar? | 18:24 |
| kanzure | yes | 18:24 |
| yashgaroth | their "office" is the guy's house | 18:24 |
| kanzure | at least 1 giant garage door | 18:24 |
| kanzure | maybe they don't publicly list that address | 18:24 |
| @fenn | yashgaroth: that's what i was expecting | 18:24 |
| yashgaroth | you could always just email him and ask to buy a synth for DIYbio purposes, maybe namedrop the carlsbad lab, and if he says no we can get some legal details on why/not, since he's a JD apparently | 18:25 |
| kanzure | i'm sure he would say yes, but i don't want to spend $15k on a dna synthesizer at the moment | 18:25 |
| kanzure | it would make me feel bad | 18:26 |
| yashgaroth | how sure are you he'd sell you one | 18:26 |
| kanzure | and that would probably be his crappiest model available | 18:26 |
| @fenn | wait, is it not legal to sell DNA synthesizers? | 18:26 |
| kanzure | well, i would go through jojack, so i would seem at least as legitimate as jojack | 18:26 |
| yashgaroth | heh | 18:26 |
| kanzure | i think it's legal | 18:26 |
| @fenn | i'm pretty sure we aren't that far down the rabbit hole yet | 18:26 |
| kanzure | that's why ebay let's em fly | 18:27 |
| kanzure | fenn: hm? | 18:27 |
| @fenn | uh, rainbows end | 18:27 |
| @fenn | .wik rainbows end | 18:27 |
| yoleaux | "Rainbows End is a 2006 science fiction novel by Vernor Vinge. It was awarded the 2007 Hugo Award for Best Novel. The book is set in San Diego, California, in 2025, in a variation of the fictional world Vinge explored in his 2002 Hugo-winning novella "Fast Times at Fairmont High" and 2004's "Synthetic Serendipity"." — http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rainbows_End | 18:27 |
| kanzure | i'm sure they could be banned pretty easily | 18:27 |
| @fenn | everything was illegal in that future, and the main character had a grandfathered in laptop without any backdoors installed | 18:28 |
| kanzure | jrayhawk_: what sort of space available for a microscope do you have. it would require an outlet and be reachable by you at least once a week or once in a while for sample switching. | 18:29 |
| kanzure | once a week, month, something.. | 18:29 |
| @fenn | not mentioned in the wikipedia summary, rainbows end deals extensively with microfluidic biotech research platforms and *-omics | 18:30 |
| kanzure | jrayhawk_: specifically i am wondering about desk space vs floor space, or other options, which would help inform design constraints | 18:30 |
| kanzure | it is probably not nice for a microscope to take up an entire desk | 18:30 |
| @fenn | a microscope should come with its own hovercraft | 18:31 |
| nmz787_i | and various other parts.... | 18:31 |
| kanzure | well, it could be a esrver rack unit | 18:31 |
| @fenn | battle lasers! | 18:31 |
| kanzure | *server | 18:31 |
| kanzure | server rack microscope hehehe | 18:31 |
| @fenn | at one point i was considering making a server rack air compressor | 18:31 |
| kanzure | it's not like humanity is likely to standardize on some other data center size format | 18:32 |
| @fenn | direct AC linear motor/piston compressor | 18:32 |
| yashgaroth | I will say that I doubt my chances of getting in there - they'd probably only be interested in chemistry and/or mechanical people, and their products pique the interest of DHS more than most | 18:32 |
| @fenn | you can cascade them to get higher pressure ratios | 18:32 |
| kanzure | yashgaroth: there's no way they would be concerned about DHS stuff just because someone wants employment | 18:32 |
| @fenn | why are we interested in this company again? | 18:33 |
| kanzure | just snooping | 18:33 |
| kanzure | shrug | 18:33 |
| nmz787_i | see what their garage looks like, so we can emulate | 18:34 |
| @fenn | "There Could Be Gold in Your Laboratory!!" | 18:34 |
| nmz787_i | 'ahh, we haven't made synthesizers yet because our walls aren't covered in safety posters' | 18:34 |
| kanzure | it would be interesting to find out that they don't have a garage/shop | 18:34 |
| @fenn | physics grads: remember that lump of off white metal kicking around the bench? | 18:34 |
| nmz787_i | fenn: lol | 18:34 |
| nmz787_i | i believe DNA is roughly white colored | 18:35 |
| kanzure | is there any good reason to not do server rack mount compatible for a microscope | 18:35 |
| @fenn | yes it's roughly semen-colored | 18:35 |
| nmz787_i | 'white gold' but what state's tea would DNA be? | 18:35 |
| nmz787_i | Missouri's? | 18:35 |
| nmz787_i | (monsanto) | 18:35 |
| kanzure | it's not like you're going to find an off-the-shelf cnc microscope anyway, so if it's going to be custom... | 18:36 |
| @fenn | is "cnc microscope" really the only term? | 18:36 |
| kanzure | i sure hope not | 18:36 |
| @fenn | "Azco Biotech, Inc. has offices in 2 U.S. locations in Oceanside and San Diego, plus a new office in China! | 18:36 |
| @fenn | 11387 Ocean Ridge Way | 18:37 |
| kanzure | i don't think their china office exists | 18:37 |
| nmz787_i | kanzure: do you want a modified scope, or something based off https://github.com/OpenLabTools | 18:37 |
| nmz787_i | http://openlabtools.eng.cam.ac.uk/presentations/2013_08_RPiWorkshop/OLT_MicroscopePresentation.pdf | 18:37 |
| @fenn | a.k.a. his house | 18:37 |
| @fenn | they have at least 12 employees | 18:38 |
| kanzure | nmz787_i: i see nothing wrong there | 18:39 |
| kanzure | except lots of bulkyness, but i dunno if i care | 18:39 |
| kanzure | https://github.com/OpenLabTools/Microscope/tree/master/CAD | 18:40 |
| kanzure | oops, stl files yeah these guys are evil | 18:40 |
| nmz787_i | they're academics | 18:40 |
| nmz787_i | 'kanzure what do you mean, obv stl are good, that's why github renders them' | 18:41 |
| kanzure | troll harder: "knazure you're just saying that because you're not practical. stl is the only practical option." | 18:41 |
| nmz787_i | except on IE 7 or 8 | 18:41 |
| kanzure | raspberrypi can do streaming video encoding stuff, right? | 18:42 |
| @fenn | what is the preferred cad format? | 18:42 |
| kanzure | i would take openscad over stl at this point | 18:42 |
| kanzure | step, iges preferred, source code to generate objects in a cad kernel even better | 18:43 |
| @fenn | oh pff it's just a bunch of t-slot anyway | 18:43 |
| @fenn | https://github.com/OpenLabTools/Microscope/blob/master/CAD/Assembly%20Image.JPG | 18:43 |
| kanzure | i didn't look at all the parts, but maybe there's camera lens holder stuff | 18:43 |
| kanzure | it is nice if all the steps wouldn't have to be double checked and repeated manually | 18:43 |
| kanzure | their design is not going to fit in a rack | 18:44 |
| kanzure | it also does not look like something you'd keep on a desk | 18:44 |
| @fenn | huh since when does my web browser render interactive 3d objects | 18:44 |
| kanzure | github added that in 2013 | 18:45 |
| @fenn | well it doesn't quite work right | 18:46 |
| kanzure | what's the fastest microcritter and how fast would the travel have to be to keep up (including opencv delays)? | 18:46 |
| @fenn | microcritter? | 18:47 |
| @fenn | you're trying to track a paramecium? | 18:47 |
| kanzure | well, it's not a requirement, but it would be nice to wonder that before building the damn thing? | 18:48 |
| @fenn | there's always a speed/resolution tradeoff | 18:48 |
| @fenn | unless you use nmz787_i's magic propeller beanie which solves everything | 18:48 |
| kanzure | oh, maybe we can find a 20 megapixel camera or something ridiculous to attach to this | 18:48 |
| @fenn | all their "cad" stuff is just short cylindrical tubes stuck together at right angles | 18:49 |
| kanzure | what did you expect | 18:49 |
| @fenn | some rectangular blobs with cylindrical holes cut in them | 18:49 |
| @fenn | did i mention i hate everyone and will be setting sail for the edge of the world in 2015 | 18:50 |
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| kanzure | hey they're trying | 18:51 |
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| @fenn | let me get out my virtual calipers and virtually measure the virtual edges of this virtually circular bag of triangles | 18:53 |
| nmz787_i | their thing wasn't that big | 18:54 |
| nmz787_i | any microscope is gonna be taller than a server tho | 18:54 |
| nmz787_i | they're like an inch and a half tall | 18:54 |
| nmz787_i | yes raspi has h264 hardware encoding | 18:55 |
| @fenn | oh my bad, it does have a bunch of complex redundant-reduplication of the prusa way bearings https://github.com/OpenLabTools/Microscope/blob/master/Docs/Presentation%20Images/X-Y%20Stage%20CAD.JPG | 18:55 |
| nmz787_i | also ppl do bug tracking already, i don't think motor speed will be a problem | 18:55 |
| @fenn | are you sure that's not hardware decoding? | 18:56 |
| @fenn | .title http://www.raspberrypi.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=70&t=25022&hilit=transcoding | 18:58 |
| yoleaux | open source transcoding example | 18:58 |
| nmz787_i | there are both | 19:01 |
| nmz787_i | or at least there is def encoding | 19:01 |
| nmz787_i | http://raspberrypi.stackexchange.com/questions/12391/hardware-h-264-encoding-and-decoding-on-the-gpu-core | 19:01 |
| nmz787_i | oh | 19:02 |
| nmz787_i | that's never been answered | 19:02 |
| nmz787_i | i've read about it before | 19:02 |
| nmz787_i | it used to cost money, but then they made it free somehow | 19:02 |
| nmz787_i | found they were already paying for the license or something | 19:02 |
| @fenn | http://www.raspberrypi.org/new-video-features/ The hardware has always been capable of supporting H.264 encode, but we were under the misapprehension that encode required an additional licence fee, so were waiting until the camera board release (which is still coming later in the year) before spending the money to enable it. | 19:02 |
| @fenn | During the course of talking to the MPEG LA about the MPEG-2 licence, we discovered that the existing licence fee that is already baked into the cost of the Raspberry Pi actually covers both encode and decode | 19:02 |
| @fenn | yay "intellectual property" | 19:02 |
| @fenn | this would have been a lot more clear if they had just ignored all this licensing bullshit | 19:03 |
| @fenn | is there a enable_all_functionality boot parameter | 19:05 |
| seba- | lol | 19:06 |
| seba- | i've tested encoding | 19:06 |
| seba- | it works | 19:06 |
| @fenn | seba-: can you please give a short 2-3 sentence summary of how you did that? | 19:06 |
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| nmz787_i | http://theiopage.blogspot.com/2013/04/enabling-hardware-h264-encoding-with.html | 19:07 |
| seba- | i don't exactly remember, but it doens't work with ffmpeg, it was with some tool you get with r.pi | 19:07 |
| seba- | it was about half year ago hm | 19:08 |
| @fenn | perhaps you should consider taking nootropics | 19:08 |
| seba- | maybe i have alzhaimers | 19:09 |
| nmz787_i | oldtimers | 19:09 |
| seba- | i think i've written it down somewhere | 19:10 |
| seba- | but i don't remember where | 19:10 |
| @fenn | try to remember where you wrote down where you had it written down | 19:11 |
| @fenn | ugh i think i have become infected with flesh-eating bacteria | 19:12 |
| seba- | maybe i've used just the raspivid tools | 19:12 |
| nmz787_i | ahh, it might be a binary blob they provided | 19:13 |
| nmz787_i | omx | 19:13 |
| @fenn | oh come on really, a binary blob? | 19:13 |
| seba- | yes | 19:13 |
| @fenn | it's patented, not secret | 19:13 |
| seba- | same thing | 19:13 |
| nmz787_i | that last link i posted has 17 lines of code | 19:13 |
| nmz787_i | fenn: maybe not | 19:14 |
| seba- | i think the problem is with the chip | 19:14 |
| nmz787_i | (patented) | 19:14 |
| seba- | they have a NDA | 19:14 |
| seba- | for documentation | 19:14 |
| @fenn | how is that even legal | 19:14 |
| seba- | the system on a chip | 19:14 |
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| nmz787_i | even hardware decode is binary blobulated | 19:14 |
| nmz787_i | 'you no pay, you no play!!!' | 19:15 |
| @fenn | why is there no "hardware liberation front" that hacks peoples computers for driver documentation? | 19:15 |
| @fenn | it's not like distributing "proprietary" information is a crime | 19:15 |
| @fenn | and even if it were, it needs to happen | 19:15 |
| seba- | they probably send a swat team if you do that in US | 19:15 |
| nmz787_i | "Back to Google and some more searching showed me that the pi has hardware H264 encoding and should be able to create the video easy. And it does once you have the right software installed. What was taking hours to make had been cut down to minutes. I can’t remember the exact time difference, but GStreamer was making the video about 60x faster than avconv could at least." | 19:16 |
| @fenn | "here's how to use your phone" SEND IN THE KILLERS | 19:16 |
| seba- | yes | 19:16 |
| @fenn | and they wonder why people snap and shoot up a movie theater | 19:16 |
| gene_hacker | it's an arm chip, that's how arm makes money | 19:17 |
| seba- | no | 19:17 |
| nmz787_i | they strongARM you | 19:17 |
| seba- | the ARM part is open | 19:17 |
| nmz787_i | btw its a broadcom chip | 19:17 |
| seba- | the propertary broadcom part is closed | 19:17 |
| @fenn | arm licenses the cpu, not the peripherals | 19:17 |
| nmz787_i | arm doesn't fab anything | 19:17 |
| gene_hacker | oh that's right | 19:17 |
| nmz787_i | strongARM is actually a thing tho | 19:17 |
| @fenn | nmz787_i: so you basically have to use gstreamer? | 19:18 |
| @fenn | even though the functionality has nothing to do with gstreamer and it was just an arbitrary choice | 19:18 |
| nmz787_i | fenn: no, that was just a post on someone using gstreamer | 19:19 |
| nmz787_i | i believe any of the progs need to go through omx{some suffix} | 19:19 |
| @fenn | but if the binary blob they supply is a gstreamer module... | 19:19 |
| @fenn | s/module/plugin/ | 19:19 |
| nmz787_i | no i dont think it is | 19:20 |
| nmz787_i | it is the omx{some suffix} files | 19:20 |
| nmz787_i | like omxplayer | 19:20 |
| seba- | yes | 19:20 |
| @fenn | even worse! | 19:20 |
| seba- | r.pi is quite crappy | 19:20 |
| seba- | doesn't work well | 19:20 |
| gene_hacker | it is | 19:20 |
| seba- | well now i've kind of made it work, with an exterior HDD hm | 19:21 |
| gene_hacker | the usb ports suck | 19:21 |
| nmz787_i | i got it with the camera | 19:22 |
| nmz787_i | camera is super noisy | 19:22 |
| @fenn | i dont get why they have a camera board... is it low latency or something? | 19:22 |
| nmz787_i | keyboard starts acting up on me sometimes (i stopped using it after it was too annoying) | 19:22 |
| seba- | well my r.pi physically destroys SD cards | 19:22 |
| nmz787_i | fenn: what do you mean? cameras are good | 19:22 |
| nmz787_i | fenn: its better than USB as its attached via a parallel bus | 19:23 |
| @fenn | but there are millions of usb cameras and they don't have to be designed to work specially for the r.pi | 19:23 |
| @fenn | it's better because it's parallel? please explain this | 19:23 |
| seba- | fenn, 1080 | 19:23 |
| seba- | it's full hd | 19:23 |
| seba- | 50 fps | 19:23 |
| nmz787_i | as such it should be much more wizardable than a usb cam, get lower latency, higher resolution | 19:23 |
| seba- | yup | 19:23 |
| seba- | far more bandwith | 19:23 |
| seba- | than via usb | 19:23 |
| nmz787_i | RAW frames | 19:23 |
| nmz787_i | straight to that proprietary encoder | 19:24 |
| @fenn | great | 19:24 |
| nmz787_i | USB cams with h264 start >$50 | 19:24 |
| @fenn | hopefully you can tee it into some image processing first | 19:24 |
| seba- | nmz787, yeah but they have fake 1080 | 19:25 |
| nmz787_i | fenn yea | 19:25 |
| nmz787_i | seba-: not sure what you mean | 19:25 |
| seba- | well i've bought one cheap h264 cam | 19:25 |
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| seba- | and it had interpolated 1080p | 19:25 |
| nmz787_i | oh | 19:25 |
| nmz787_i | i see | 19:25 |
| seba- | it was shitty | 19:25 |
| nmz787_i | yeah | 19:25 |
| nmz787_i | lotta them cheap cams do that | 19:25 |
| nmz787_i | PITA | 19:25 |
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| nmz787_i | not good at all for science | 19:25 |
| nmz787_i | or engi | 19:25 |
| seba- | i've had the logitech 920 or something that was ok | 19:26 |
| seba- | but not really perfect | 19:26 |
| seba- | hm | 19:26 |
| nmz787_i | f-ing cheap manufacturers lying and getting away with it because I can't throw eggs at their factory since there's an ocean between us | 19:26 |
| seba- | anyway beagle bone should be better than r.pi | 19:26 |
| nmz787_i | yeah i have a decent logitech | 19:26 |
| seba- | nmz787_i, do you have problems with r.pi corruption as well? | 19:26 |
| @fenn | is there a list of usb cameras and their various parameters | 19:27 |
| seba- | fenn what do you want to do? | 19:27 |
| @fenn | nobody ever advertises manual exposure control | 19:27 |
| kanzure | so would raspberrypi be capable of both h264 encoding and also opencv things | 19:27 |
| nmz787_i | fenn: v4l has something | 19:27 |
| nmz787_i | kanzure: yes | 19:27 |
| seba- | kanzure, what is opencv? | 19:27 |
| seba- | GPU programming? | 19:27 |
| @fenn | auto exposure control causes horrible latency because the exposure is so slow and it takes multiple frames for it to switch exposure times | 19:27 |
| @fenn | also the change in framerate messes up my mplayer stream | 19:28 |
| nmz787_i | seba-: never experience corruption, though once i turned it on to watch tv and it didn't boot, and there was some fsck crap i went through but i dont think it actually did anything, just cleared some warning and i rebooted and it seemed ok | 19:28 |
| nmz787_i | seba-: open computer vision | 19:28 |
| seba- | nmz787_i, so then you do experience it | 19:28 |
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| seba- | i don't think you can do opencv with the current implementation | 19:29 |
| seba- | you could do theoretically | 19:29 |
| nmz787_i | seba-: you can | 19:29 |
| nmz787_i | i was playing with compiling opencv on my rpi | 19:29 |
| seba- | does it work fast? | 19:29 |
| kanzure | i'd be happy to use beaglebone instead of raspberrypi | 19:29 |
| @fenn | aren't they basically the same thing | 19:29 |
| nmz787_i | beaglebone lacks the camera module tho i believe | 19:29 |
| seba- | fenn no | 19:29 |
| nmz787_i | and h263 enc | 19:29 |
| nmz787_i | 264 | 19:29 |
| kanzure | ugh | 19:29 |
| seba- | raspberrypi has this big problem with data corruption | 19:30 |
| kanzure | digshadow: howdy | 19:30 |
| seba- | if you do anything more intensive with it | 19:30 |
| @fenn | seba-: you probably are using a bad power supply | 19:30 |
| @fenn | use something with a higher current rating | 19:30 |
| kanzure | digshadow: didn't even see you come in | 19:30 |
| seba- | fenn that's not true and i hate that anyone says that | 19:30 |
| seba- | there are many reports where people used proper lab power supplies | 19:30 |
| @fenn | well i've seen it happen on other systems | 19:30 |
| seba- | and all sorts of things | 19:30 |
| seba- | and the same thing happens | 19:30 |
| seba- | it just doesn't work properly | 19:31 |
| nmz787_i | fenn: yeah there are weird problems | 19:31 |
| seba- | just not everyone experiences it | 19:31 |
| digshadow | kanzure: I like to hide | 19:31 |
| seba- | because it depends what are you using for | 19:31 |
| seba- | if you want to just watch videos then it's ok | 19:31 |
| seba- | generally the write operations are problematic | 19:31 |
| seba- | not read | 19:31 |
| nmz787_i | i was reading about my keyboard error and ppl were saying it could be the littlefuse ESD protection on the USB power traces | 19:31 |
| @fenn | is it possible to submit a bug report on the hardware? | 19:31 |
| seba- | no | 19:31 |
| kanzure | digshadow: these are my conspirators | 19:31 |
| seba- | they say "you have a bad PSU or SD" | 19:31 |
| seba- | the end | 19:31 |
| seba- | even thou there are like 2342342 people complaining | 19:32 |
| nmz787_i | seba-: i stopped having luck just playin vids :P | 19:32 |
| @fenn | there is probably some trivial fix like "solder a capacitor here" | 19:32 |
| digshadow | kanzure: you missed one important piece of the puzzle | 19:32 |
| digshadow | az and I went to school together and even lived together for a semester | 19:32 |
| digshadow | he got interested in the ic stuff I was working on | 19:32 |
| seba- | fenn i don't know, it happened the same when using USB flash drive | 19:32 |
| kanzure | nmz787_i went to school there too | 19:32 |
| digshadow | which eventually led to his interest in microfabrication | 19:32 |
| seba- | but it didn't get physically corrupted | 19:32 |
| kanzure | digshadow: hah! so you're the cause. | 19:32 |
| kanzure | that's funny. | 19:32 |
| kanzure | do you know why he is not as active in those directions | 19:33 |
| nmz787_i | digshadow: kanzure nope, I went to RIT, RPI's western rival | 19:33 |
| kanzure | oops, sorry | 19:33 |
| digshadow | nmz787_i: RPI HAS NO RIVAL | 19:33 |
| nmz787_i | get your R acronyms right, geez | 19:33 |
| digshadow | WE ARE KING | 19:33 |
| nmz787_i | lol | 19:33 |
| digshadow | j/k | 19:33 |
| seba- | fenn, but yes, probably it lacks (a) capacitor(s) | 19:33 |
| nmz787_i | i was sad when i found they have a student garage for fixing cars | 19:33 |
| nmz787_i | like wtf why doesn't /my/ tech school have that | 19:34 |
| digshadow | kanzure: um I dunno, he moves from project to project | 19:34 |
| digshadow | I suppose we all do | 19:34 |
| nmz787_i | they want to discourage poor kids from attending :/ | 19:34 |
| @fenn | the "raspberry it" the hottest new computer on a cracker | 19:34 |
| kanzure | well, it's embarrassing that we don't have cheap microfabrication stuff | 19:34 |
| digshadow | his microscope idea is good though | 19:34 |
| seba- | fenn, now i run r.pi on a HDD with own power supply and it works ok | 19:34 |
| digshadow | also | 19:34 |
| digshadow | he wanted to start big | 19:34 |
| digshadow | with cmos | 19:34 |
| digshadow | there are a lot of eaiser stepping stones | 19:34 |
| kanzure | shrug, i would be happy with su8/pdms stuff | 19:34 |
| kanzure | but i can see the utility of microelectronics | 19:34 |
| @fenn | seba-: so you think the usb flash drive was drawing too much power? | 19:35 |
| nmz787_i | plus he's in a phd prog where he can do cool stuff, not boring old innovation | 19:35 |
| digshadow | I joined homecmos when it first started | 19:35 |
| nmz787_i | measly systems integration, pfft | 19:35 |
| digshadow | it was super quiet | 19:35 |
| digshadow | and so I left because it was wasting tab space :P | 19:35 |
| digshadow | I poke in every few months | 19:35 |
| kanzure | tab space can be created but not destroyed | 19:35 |
| @fenn | tabs grow exponentially but decay linearly | 19:35 |
| digshadow | so another bit of trivia about me | 19:35 |
| seba- | fenn, i don't think the usb flash drive nor SD card draw too much power, more that they draw power in pulses and because of the lack of capacitors it can't handle such type of loads | 19:35 |
| digshadow | I wanted to be a genetic engineer | 19:35 |
| @fenn | hey me too | 19:36 |
| kanzure | biology is awful | 19:36 |
| digshadow | but decided to go into computer science because it required 10 years of school | 19:36 |
| kanzure | black magic etc | 19:36 |
| digshadow | and I was afraid I'd go to jail for ethical violations | 19:36 |
| kanzure | i think we can safely throw away a lot of regular biology stuff | 19:36 |
| kanzure | like all that bulky lab equipment | 19:36 |
| kanzure | or paying $20,000 for a lightbulb | 19:36 |
| seba- | huh | 19:36 |
| digshadow | heh, there is waste to be sure | 19:36 |
| digshadow | but... | 19:36 |
| seba- | what sorts of lightbulbs cost that much?! | 19:36 |
| digshadow | don't judge things too quickly | 19:37 |
| kanzure | seba-: thermocyclers | 19:37 |
| gene_hacker | microwave light bulbs | 19:37 |
| kanzure | don't worry, i have been judging for a very long time | 19:37 |
| seba- | why do thermocycles need light bulbs? | 19:37 |
| digshadow | sometimes quality is important in very minute ways | 19:37 |
| @fenn | seba-: that's what i meant | 19:37 |
| gene_hacker | the ones that light up a whole factory | 19:37 |
| seba- | +r | 19:37 |
| kanzure | digshadow: i would prefer to find protocols where the quality is not as important | 19:37 |
| kanzure | digshadow: for example, having a method that only works 1 time out of a billion is just not useful | 19:37 |
| seba- | don't thermocyclers run with a peltier element? | 19:37 |
| kanzure | not all of them | 19:37 |
| digshadow | kanzure: it is if you get 1 billion tries a second | 19:37 |
| seba- | kanzure what do they have then? | 19:37 |
| kanzure | most biologists.. don't. | 19:37 |
| digshadow | R&D is expensive | 19:37 |
| kanzure | digshadow: i spent some time in a molecular biology lab | 19:38 |
| seba- | digshadow, R&D is expensive only because nobody cares about costs that much | 19:38 |
| @fenn | 1 billion seconds per try | 19:38 |
| digshadow | kanzure: fwiw | 19:38 |
| digshadow | the current stack of bio equipment I have laying around | 19:38 |
| digshadow | I have a centrifuge, electroophoreis equipment, vortexer | 19:39 |
| digshadow | assorted tubes and stuff | 19:39 |
| digshadow | I was playing with bio stuff for a bit | 19:39 |
| digshadow | but settled on doing more robotics stuff | 19:39 |
| kanzure | biology equipment is less useful without the full set of toys | 19:39 |
| @fenn | and reagents | 19:39 |
| kanzure | oh yeah, those.. | 19:39 |
| seba- | i have chemistry toys :-( | 19:39 |
| digshadow | I have a good assortment of chemicals for the work I do | 19:40 |
| digshadow | including fun ones like conc HF | 19:40 |
| @fenn | now that DIY Taq is legal why is there no "bacterium conservancy" or "seed saving" or whatever heirloom gardeners do | 19:40 |
| seba- | was DIY Taq illegal? | 19:40 |
| kanzure | ptaented | 19:40 |
| seba- | ah | 19:40 |
| kanzure | digshadow: i think a lot of biology equipment can be replaced by microfluidic components | 19:40 |
| kanzure | mostly valveless stuff, i mean | 19:41 |
| @fenn | the patent was the excuse everyone used for not sharing their homegrown plasmids | 19:41 |
| digshadow | kanzure: ah okay | 19:41 |
| digshadow | so | 19:41 |
| @fenn | but now that there's no patent, still no free bacteria | 19:41 |
| digshadow | your idea is to cheaply make a MEMS assembly | 19:41 |
| digshadow | to run experiments off of that? | 19:41 |
| seba- | fungi living in dishwashers are interesting, aren't they? :-) | 19:42 |
| @fenn | s/dishwasher/nuclear reactor/ | 19:42 |
| kanzure | yeah, like a <$5k photolithography setup for microfabrication, mostly microfluidics and microelectronics, other MEMS stuff would be cool but a lot of those procedures require wacky vacuum chambers n' shit that i don't want to bother with upfront | 19:42 |
| seba- | if you have a vacuum pump and some tape, you can make a x-ray generator | 19:43 |
| nmz787_i | vacuum is pretty essential to any good lab | 19:43 |
| digshadow | kanzure: I have piles of vac stuff here | 19:43 |
| digshadow | not sure how much you looked into what I do | 19:43 |
| kanzure | so, another part of this is that it should be repeatable | 19:43 |
| kanzure | so that others can use it and do my work for me | 19:43 |
| kanzure | erm i mean, use it for themselves | 19:44 |
| @fenn | and improve on it | 19:44 |
| seba- | oh if anyone is interested | 19:44 |
| seba- | oxone can be used to eat copper | 19:44 |
| @fenn | <standard open source argument> | 19:44 |
| seba- | tested today | 19:44 |
| kanzure | seba-: did you look at the phosphoramidite chemistry stuff | 19:44 |
| @fenn | .wik oxone | 19:44 |
| yoleaux | "Potassium peroxymonosulfate (also known as MPS, potassium monopersulfate, and the trade names Caroat and Oxone) is widely used as an oxidizing agent. It is the potassium salt of peroxymonosulfuric acid." — http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oxone | 19:44 |
| ParahSailin | oxone? | 19:44 |
| seba- | kanzure, no, i need to study for exams now :/ | 19:45 |
| @fenn | i have some sodium persulfate purchased from a circuit etching supply company | 19:45 |
| kanzure | digshadow: i've seen your ic reverse engineering stuff, not much else | 19:45 |
| kanzure | were you the one that wrote that png2netlist thing? | 19:45 |
| digshadow | there are 4 or 6 such tools | 19:45 |
| digshadow | I wrote one of them | 19:45 |
| kanzure | i mean the open source one | 19:45 |
| digshadow | yes... | 19:45 |
| digshadow | there are a lot of them | 19:45 |
| kanzure | do they work | 19:46 |
| seba- | kanzure, 1 is hard :< spectroscopy | 19:46 |
| digshadow | to varying degrees | 19:46 |
| digshadow | well lets be specific | 19:46 |
| digshadow | when you ssay png | 19:46 |
| kanzure | well, i mean image data | 19:46 |
| digshadow | do you mean a photo of a chip | 19:46 |
| kanzure | decapped | 19:46 |
| digshadow | or a polygon layout | 19:46 |
| digshadow | ah | 19:46 |
| digshadow | I have not seen any good tools for that | 19:46 |
| digshadow | the best out there | 19:46 |
| digshadow | is degate | 19:46 |
| digshadow | but that is somewhat limited | 19:46 |
| digshadow | I did not write it | 19:46 |
| kanzure | .g site:github.com degate | 19:46 |
| yoleaux | https://github.com/nitram2342/degate | 19:46 |
| digshadow | degate only works on std cells | 19:47 |
| digshadow | and can't work on first principles | 19:47 |
| digshadow | most of the chips I do are older non-std cell based chips | 19:47 |
| digshadow | so degate doesn't work for those | 19:47 |
| digshadow | it also requires very sharp images | 19:47 |
| digshadow | either from a SEM or confocal microscope | 19:47 |
| kanzure | so, i think the goal of something like homecmos should be some piece of open source hardware | 19:48 |
| kanzure | or multiple pieces | 19:48 |
| nmz787_i | seba-: what about spectroscopy? | 19:49 |
| seba- | nmz787_i, i have an exam from it | 19:49 |
| @fenn | i think the goal should be an open FPGA chip | 19:49 |
| digshadow | thats what az wants | 19:49 |
| digshadow | its not a bad goal | 19:50 |
| kanzure | hmm i dunno, you should start with transistors and smaller circuits | 19:50 |
| digshadow | it would make all our projects go full circle too | 19:50 |
| kanzure | circles can be confusing | 19:50 |
| digshadow | but unifying | 19:50 |
| @fenn | it would enable reconfigurable computing which was killed in the late 90's | 19:50 |
| digshadow | sometimes you need a driving factor | 19:50 |
| digshadow | even if its arbitrary | 19:50 |
| nmz787_i | seba-: oO sweet | 19:50 |
| nmz787_i | seba-: I know a lot of spectroscopy, ask me if you need to | 19:51 |
| @fenn | xilinx produced a run of chips for some professor to study it, and that was it | 19:51 |
| kanzure | why did they let a professor touch it? | 19:51 |
| @fenn | all FPGA since then have single bitstream at load time | 19:51 |
| seba- | if anyone is interesting in geiger i've made the powersupply really easy, using just inductor + diode + capacitor, no transformer | 19:51 |
| seba- | nmz787_i, also raman etc | 19:51 |
| seba- | ? | 19:51 |
| nmz787_i | seba-: i've made a sortof geiger detector with a PIN diode | 19:52 |
| nmz787_i | no high voltage | 19:52 |
| kanzure | seba-: nmz787_i is king of open source spectroscopy equipment at the moment | 19:52 |
| digshadow | seba-: I picked up a gamma spectacular recently | 19:52 |
| nmz787_i | seba-: yeah raman is on my list of things to attempt very soon | 19:52 |
| digshadow | have you used one by chance | 19:52 |
| seba- | digshadow, no | 19:52 |
| nmz787_i | digshadow: technically the PIN diode detector is for gammas | 19:52 |
| digshadow | http://openmca.info/ | 19:52 |
| kanzure | .title | 19:53 |
| yoleaux | OpenMCA | 19:53 |
| digshadow | is also an interesting project | 19:53 |
| kanzure | argh | 19:53 |
| @fenn | i saw jake's presentation on the gamma spectrometer, i guess that's what "gamma spectacular" is | 19:53 |
| nmz787_i | MCA is such a dumb term IMO | 19:53 |
| seba- | wouldn't PIN also probably detect also beta/muons i guess? | 19:53 |
| seba- | -also | 19:53 |
| digshadow | I got it to help bring up an EDS detector for my SEM | 19:53 |
| nmz787_i | as they dont really exist anymore, the channels are just arrays in memory | 19:53 |
| seba- | nmz787_i, also probably oyu can use a 1n400x for the detector | 19:53 |
| seba- | or an array hm | 19:53 |
| seba- | it should work | 19:54 |
| digshadow | if anyone here has experience with Li gamma detectors I would be very interested | 19:54 |
| kanzure | superkuh is gone? wtf | 19:54 |
| kanzure | maybe we lost him in the netsplit | 19:55 |
| seba- | nmz787_i, what about NMR? | 19:55 |
| nmz787_i | pft openMCA is 65msps | 19:55 |
| nmz787_i | digshadow: you mean SiLi? don't be silly! | 19:55 |
| seba- | nmz787_i, i was thinking it would be interesting to have cylindrical magnets on servo motors to make a homogenous field | 19:55 |
| digshadow | nmz787_i: why not | 19:55 |
| nmz787_i | seba-: know very little of NMR | 19:56 |
| digshadow | unless you can find me a cheap SDD | 19:56 |
| seba- | oh | 19:56 |
| nmz787_i | digshadow: just asking if that's what you meant... and wanted to make fun of SiLi pronouciation | 19:56 |
| nmz787_i | i was making my gamma detector to go into a FIB | 19:56 |
| nmz787_i | to do PIXE detection | 19:56 |
| seba- | nmz787_i, a DIY NMR is on my DIY list :D | 19:56 |
| nmz787_i | for thickness monitoring | 19:56 |
| digshadow | ah cool | 19:56 |
| digshadow | I need to figure out how to hook it up | 19:57 |
| @fenn | TLA OCR DEMUX is on my list | 19:57 |
| seba- | i'll make it someday lol | 19:57 |
| digshadow | if anyone has access to EDS systems | 19:57 |
| digshadow | especially by PGT | 19:57 |
| seba- | heh | 19:57 |
| digshadow | I could really use some setup photos | 19:57 |
| nmz787_i | i soldered it up but then got a day job and the guy with the FIB hasn't bugged me about it | 19:57 |
| seba- | what about x-ray diffraction spectroscopy | 19:57 |
| digshadow | and/or docs | 19:57 |
| kanzure | yeah we should really ban acronyms | 19:57 |
| seba- | anybody made it? | 19:57 |
| seba- | it shouldn't be hard | 19:57 |
| nmz787_i | seba-: XDS is pretty much any other spectroscopy | 19:57 |
| @fenn | huh? not at all | 19:57 |
| nmz787_i | no? | 19:58 |
| seba- | no | 19:58 |
| seba- | you can get structure | 19:58 |
| nmz787_i | isn't it just using sub-UV illumination? | 19:58 |
| @fenn | you get a diffraction angle spectrum from a single x ray frequency, not a spectrum of different frequencies | 19:58 |
| nmz787_i | oh, crystallography? | 19:58 |
| seba- | also powder diffraction is fun | 19:58 |
| seba- | you can quickly identify compounds | 19:58 |
| nmz787_i | ah | 19:58 |
| seba- | :) | 19:58 |
| seba- | and XRF also hm | 19:58 |
| seba- | hehe | 19:58 |
| nmz787_i | yeah I guess that is one of the detector uses i was looking at | 19:59 |
| nmz787_i | but having an xray source takes a lot more research | 19:59 |
| seba- | i was thinking you could use a monocrystalline cell | 19:59 |
| seba- | for the diffractor | 19:59 |
| nmz787_i | i don't want to marie-curie myself | 19:59 |
| seba- | why not | 19:59 |
| kanzure | paperbot: http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v398/n6725/abs/398310a0.html | 19:59 |
| paperbot | http://libgen.org/scimag/get.php?doi=10.1038%2F18631 | 19:59 |
| seba- | it's safe | 19:59 |
| seba- | you can use russian electronic tubes | 19:59 |
| seba- | for x-ray sources | 19:59 |
| @fenn | for the near term a portable multi-wavelength raman spectrometer seems more feasible | 19:59 |
| nmz787_i | digshadow: the LPC Link V2 has 80MSPS onboard its IC | 19:59 |
| seba- | you just put them to few 10 kV | 19:59 |
| nmz787_i | digshadow: aka LPC4370 | 20:00 |
| seba- | a guy i know has made a home made x-ray | 20:00 |
| seba- | he takes photo of stuff | 20:00 |
| nmz787_i | yeah, i'm on some xray lists | 20:00 |
| seba- | it's fun | 20:00 |
| @fenn | x-rays do seem useful for 3d scanning though | 20:00 |
| seba- | he used an electronic tube | 20:00 |
| seba- | and then those fluorescent screens | 20:00 |
| seba- | a mirror | 20:00 |
| seba- | and a camera :) | 20:00 |
| @fenn | take a movie like this and build cad geometry from it https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/d/d0/Webcam_CT_transmissions.OGG | 20:00 |
| kanzure | opencascade claims to do point cloud to nurbs surface | 20:01 |
| @fenn | fuck point clouds | 20:01 |
| kanzure | yeah, well... | 20:01 |
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| @fenn | you'd probably build an octree model first and then fit geometric primitives to that | 20:02 |
| kanzure | hi joshhua | 20:02 |
| @fenn | i'm not so hot on my "expectation maximization algorithm" understanding | 20:02 |
| nmz787_i | grumble grumble | 20:03 |
| @fenn | but it seems intuitively simple to project rays through a sphere of voxels, where ray intensity is proportional to the density seen in the x-ray | 20:03 |
| kanzure | there's tonnns of surface approximation stuff in opencascade | 20:03 |
| nmz787_i | stderr is still stuck | 20:03 |
| nmz787_i | http://paste.pound-python.org/show/i1e898hiYuwMO72XsjnT/ | 20:03 |
| nmz787_i | http://paste.pound-python.org/show/vXxyUQZFdFu8RJ0s8zwI/ | 20:03 |
| kanzure | did you read the link i gave you | 20:03 |
| nmz787_i | yeah | 20:03 |
| nmz787_i | implemented in that demo | 20:03 |
| kanzure | http://stefaanlippens.net/python-asynchronous-subprocess-pipe-reading | 20:03 |
| nmz787_i | (it consists of two files) | 20:03 |
| kanzure | hm | 20:03 |
| nmz787_i | another link says ""Luckily the solution is fairly simple. Instead of setting stdout and stderr to PIPE, they need to be given proper file (or unix pipe) objects that will accept a reasonable amount of data."" | 20:04 |
| nmz787_i | http://thraxil.org/users/anders/posts/2008/03/13/Subprocess-Hanging-PIPE-is-your-enemy/ | 20:04 |
| nmz787_i | i saw this earlier today too | 20:04 |
| nmz787_i | where someone used a tempfile for output, then readlines from that in their watcher | 20:04 |
| kanzure | dingo: poke, maybe you can insta-guess nmz787_i's problem | 20:04 |
| nmz787_i | oh well, I guess I'll work on that | 20:04 |
| dingo | hehe as maintainer of pexpect i should know this one... | 20:05 |
| nmz787_i | if the second of those two pastes redirects its stdout to a textbox or something tho... having a file will be good | 20:05 |
| nmz787_i | unless I figure out how to catch a global exception (try except around a call to main function?) | 20:05 |
| dingo | there is a hook to catch all exceptions everywhere | 20:06 |
| dingo | you can install that | 20:06 |
| nmz787_i | and then reset the output to the original pipe | 20:06 |
| dingo | a bit of a callback mechanism | 20:06 |
| nmz787_i | dingo: basically i have a GUI that launches other GUIs | 20:06 |
| nmz787_i | in the launcher i have a textbox where i want std out/err to go | 20:06 |
| dingo | sys.excepthook | 20:06 |
| dingo | . | 20:07 |
| dingo | Where I encountered it was when the command being run was doing an svn checkout. The checkout would run for a while and then the svn command would hang at some point. | 20:07 |
| nmz787_i | when I launch a new process using subprocess.popen, after it gets up and running, the new process then redirects stdout and stderr to its own textbox | 20:07 |
| dingo | this is because the stdout/err buffer has reached its buffer limit | 20:07 |
| dingo | and you haven't read it | 20:07 |
| @fenn | there is a ridiculously large amount of information here https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/X-ray_fluorescence | 20:07 |
| nmz787_i | dingo: so when the second GUI has an exception, it it was redirecting to its own textbox, all the errors would be lost in the buffer, or in the textbox but that got closed when the program had an exception | 20:08 |
| dingo | its like if i did: jot 100000 1 | (while read value; sleep 10; done) | 20:08 |
| dingo | the first process will run/block for a really long time, because the consumer is not exausting the buffer | 20:08 |
| kanzure | should we be telling him to use your python async library | 20:08 |
| nmz787_i | dingo: other times, i guess depending on the function being performed, the exception happens in a thread, so the second GUI doesn't crash-close... but the stderr is still stuck in the pipe | 20:09 |
| nmz787_i | dingo: but I've got the consumer in a thread, just consuming | 20:09 |
| nmz787_i | so it seems weird that it would get filled | 20:09 |
| dingo | https://github.com/jquast/blessed/blob/master/blessed/tests/accessories.py#L58 | 20:10 |
| dingo | notice i use os._exit(0) in the exception handler | 20:10 |
| dingo | because otherwise a SystemExit exception is thrown and caught by the parent | 20:10 |
| dingo | something like a fork-bomb ensues, otherwise | 20:10 |
| dingo | thats a fork() | 20:11 |
| dpk | http://chronicle.com/blogs/wiredcampus/frustrated-scholar-creates-new-route-for-funding-and-publishing-academic-work/53073?cid=at&utm_source=at&utm_medium=en | 20:11 |
| dpk | argh utmcrap | 20:11 |
| dingo | you have a main process, you have threads A and B; A's stderr/out is consumed by thread B? that seems very wrong | 20:11 |
| dingo | they share the same filedescriptors | 20:11 |
| dingo | you want to use pty.fork() | 20:12 |
| dingo | like this test case, https://github.com/jquast/blessed/blob/master/blessed/tests/test_keyboard.py#L119 | 20:12 |
| dingo | anyway you could use pexpect if you really want hehe | 20:13 |
| nmz787_i | dingo: wexpext is what i need to look into on windows | 20:13 |
| dingo | its full of hundreds of lines of edge-case handling :-) | 20:13 |
| nmz787_i | wexpect | 20:13 |
| dingo | indeed -- we're looking to merge wexpect into pexpect into 4.0 release | 20:13 |
| dingo | to make it a single interface across both platforms | 20:14 |
| dingo | for windows man., wow, you're on your own, enjoy :-) | 20:14 |
| dingo | no terminals, much less pty's, its all very crude | 20:14 |
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| dingo | windows has "terminals" but they're nothing like unix ASR-33-based teletype terminals | 20:14 |
| nmz787_i | honestly I'm having a hard time with the code you pasted :) | 20:14 |
| dingo | thats ok i had a hard time writing it, hehe | 20:15 |
| digshadow | nmz787_i: I need a good adc for digitizing the sem | 20:15 |
| nmz787_i | but this is windows-only | 20:15 |
| dingo | pty.fork() won't work on windows, so ignore me then | 20:15 |
| digshadow | have you had good experience with the LPC4370? | 20:15 |
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| dingo | i guess i would recommend wexpect, go with that | 20:15 |
| dingo | the maintainerhsip has laxed on it a bit, but presumably people have had success with it | 20:15 |
| nmz787_i | digshadow: its been OK, its a big processor, lots of peripherals, shitty online help as they probably want to weed out the ppl with no money to pay for engineering or something | 20:15 |
| nmz787_i | idk why these processor docs suck so bad | 20:15 |
| nmz787_i | but i guess working at intel now for a while i kinda get a better picture | 20:16 |
| nmz787_i | some ppl/coworkers say other semiconductor companies are much worse | 20:16 |
| nmz787_i | dingo: thanks, I'll have to read up | 20:16 |
| nmz787_i | dingo: for now I've just been commenting out the second GUI's redirection (just to a textbox, so no threading there) | 20:17 |
| digshadow | 12 bit isn't super high res | 20:17 |
| nmz787_i | dingo: so any errors will go into the PIPE, not be lost if the second GUI crashes | 20:17 |
| digshadow | I don't have specs yet for what I need though | 20:17 |
| digshadow | might be neough | 20:17 |
| nmz787_i | but its pretty annoying that stderr doesn't print until i close the second GUI | 20:17 |
| dingo | well for example on unix -- stdout is lined-buffered and stderr is unbuffered | 20:18 |
| nmz787_i | digshadow: I know azonenberg was talking with someone recently about a 250msps adc and interleaving | 20:18 |
| dingo | like if i do "sys.stdout.write('aaaaaa')" the person consuming it won't see it... until i either issue sys.stdout.flush() or sys.stdout.write('\n') | 20:18 |
| nmz787_i | he was commenting/helping someone else tho | 20:18 |
| dingo | i would imagine something like that is happening to you | 20:18 |
| nmz787_i | i think in #oshpark | 20:18 |
| dingo | its in a buffer, but not flushed | 20:18 |
| nmz787_i | mmm | 20:18 |
| @fenn | dingo: possibly a dumb suggestion but have you thought about 24-bit sound cards? | 20:19 |
| digshadow | I think my signal is pretty slow | 20:19 |
| nmz787_i | dingo: yeah I think the subprocess popen takes care of that with bufsize=1 | 20:19 |
| @fenn | di^I^I blargh | 20:19 |
| @fenn | digshadow: | 20:19 |
| nmz787_i | dingo: but yeah apparently not for stderr | 20:19 |
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| digshadow | well more accurately I can make it slow | 20:20 |
| @fenn | digshadow: what is the ADC doing exactly? | 20:21 |
| nmz787_i | digshadow: i just made a board with a 6msps adc that has 16 bits | 20:21 |
| @fenn | is this just analog to digital video conversion? | 20:21 |
| @fenn | does it have HSYNC and all that jazz | 20:22 |
| nmz787_i | this might be the analog ADC pdf i'm thinking of http://www.analog.com/library/analogdialogue/archives/43-09/edch%206%20converter.pdf | 20:24 |
| nmz787_i | my kindle has a good overview of the diff types and such | 20:24 |
| nmz787_i | fenn: it does have all that I think, but I'm not using it | 20:24 |
| digshadow | fenn: yeah | 20:25 |
| digshadow | I'm not sure | 20:25 |
| digshadow | but I have full shcematics if you are bored | 20:25 |
| digshadow | hehe | 20:25 |
| nmz787_i | fenn: or its expected you are watching that and know when to tell it to sample | 20:25 |
| digshadow | fenn: http://siliconpr0n.org/uv/super_iiia/schematic_raw/ | 20:25 |
| digshadow | I'm working on getting it up first | 20:25 |
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| digshadow | so haven't really looked into it yet | 20:25 |
| nmz787_i | this is the ADC i just used http://www.wolfsonmicro.com/products/imaging_adcs/WM8253/ | 20:26 |
| nmz787_i | its for CCD or CIS, so not analog video with hsync and crap | 20:27 |
| dingo | nmz787_i: http://paste.pound-python.org/show/vXxyUQZFdFu8RJ0s8zwI/ <- as far as this goes; your stdout/err is shared in this process; both of them, sys.__stdout__.fileno() is equal -- they write to the same place -- there is a new pattern in python -- http://bugs.python.org/issue15805 you could use -- but this won't work with threads, because, again, you share file descriptors between threads | 20:27 |
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| @fenn | welp it's the right century at least | 20:28 |
| dingo | if you really want to capture exceptions; do a real threading.Thread() subclass, with a run() method that catches all exceptions, then uses the traceback.format_tb like i do here, https://github.com/jquast/blessed/blob/master/blessed/tests/accessories.py#L58 -- save it to a class state variable, "error", and the main process can see "this thread is complete, and its 'error' value is non-zero, let me display it" | 20:29 |
| @fenn | there are probably dedicated converters for the signal it outputs, but you'll want to use a multiple channel ADC for correlating your x-ray spectra | 20:29 |
| @fenn | nevermind don't listen to me | 20:30 |
| digshadow | all I know is there is a pre-amp on the EDS already | 20:31 |
| digshadow | if I can get away with PC audio capture | 20:31 |
| digshadow | I'll try that first | 20:31 |
| digshadow | as a first test | 20:31 |
| digshadow | and do something more specialized after if need be | 20:31 |
| kanzure | dpk: he's been pimping his site all over the web for a week now, it's getting annoying. i also don't think crowdfunding for science is a good idea because you'll just end up with your regular distribution of funding like you always do, except skewed towards media-competent science groups.. | 20:31 |
| @fenn | if the scanning electronics are designed to run a TV you probably can't slow them down too much | 20:31 |
| digshadow | ha | 20:31 |
| digshadow | fenn: maybe | 20:32 |
| digshadow | but | 20:32 |
| digshadow | it has scan rate control IIRC | 20:32 |
| digshadow | people take photos | 20:32 |
| digshadow | and needed control for those | 20:32 |
| digshadow | polaroid | 20:32 |
| @fenn | huh? scan rate controls the rate the beam sweeps across the image, no? | 20:32 |
| digshadow | anyway, I may just be able to take more capture | 20:32 |
| digshadow | and average it out | 20:32 |
| digshadow | the CRTs are like o-scopes | 20:33 |
| digshadow | they have xy inputs + intensity | 20:33 |
| digshadow | you can scan at arbitrary speed | 20:33 |
| digshadow | there is no sync pulse | 20:33 |
| @fenn | uh, ok | 20:33 |
| @fenn | very long decay phosphors i assume | 20:33 |
| nmz787_i | digshadow: you could get 'photobleaching' or something like it though | 20:34 |
| nmz787_i | digshadow: so your signal might degrade with multiple passes | 20:34 |
| @fenn | digshadow: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vvSNMs9ioNI shining a UV laser through a multifaceted prism onto a SEM screen | 20:34 |
| nmz787_i | digshadow: video should be easy though ;) | 20:34 |
| kanzure | .title | 20:34 |
| yoleaux | optic sheep | 20:34 |
| nmz787_i | dingo: why do you say they share the same pipe? | 20:35 |
| nmz787_i | or fd | 20:35 |
| dingo | files are shared acrossed threads -- including your stdout and stderr | 20:35 |
| digshadow | is that at noisebrige? | 20:35 |
| nmz787_i | dingo: when i call that file with subprocess.popen i give it a subprocess.PIPE for each stdout and stderr arg | 20:36 |
| dingo | two threads can open a single file and write to it -- quite dangerously | 20:36 |
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| nmz787_i | dingo: not sure what you mean sharing files across threads though | 20:36 |
| nmz787_i | dingo: i thought the subprocess.PIPE generated a new file desc | 20:36 |
| nmz787_i | each time it was used | 20:36 |
| @fenn | digshadow: yeah that's me and mike kan (tinkerhack) | 20:36 |
| digshadow | yes, I know him | 20:37 |
| digshadow | I tried using that sem | 20:37 |
| digshadow | but it has a vacuum leak | 20:37 |
| nmz787_i | :/ you seem to be saying PIPE is a variable, not a magic returns somethin new each time its called like a func | 20:37 |
| digshadow | (I'm in mountain view) | 20:37 |
| dingo | ahh well for subprocess.PIPE its different, yes, sorry, i was looking only at the 2nd program | 20:37 |
| @fenn | oh, right | 20:37 |
| @fenn | do i know you? :P | 20:37 |
| digshadow | you might ;) | 20:37 |
| @fenn | are you in one of those warehouses where hacker dojo used to be? | 20:38 |
| digshadow | no | 20:38 |
| @fenn | i used to live there fwiw | 20:38 |
| digshadow | fenn: https://plus.google.com/photos/117750254503792451904/albums/5807732024740472289/6002170799888186754?banner=pwa&pid=6002170799888186754&oid=117750254503792451904 | 20:38 |
| kanzure | approved | 20:38 |
| @fenn | ugh just when i thought picasa couldn't get any worse | 20:39 |
| digshadow | yeah | 20:39 |
| kanzure | jrayhawk_: you're now obliggated to top that, possibly by being reckless/dangerous | 20:39 |
| digshadow | google nom nom'd it | 20:39 |
| digshadow | trying to shove gplus down people's throats | 20:39 |
| kanzure | digshadow: have you run into the langton lab crew? | 20:40 |
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| digshadow | hmm | 20:40 |
| kanzure | langton labs, i mean | 20:40 |
| digshadow | don't know who they are | 20:40 |
| @fenn | are those merrell ventilators? i am wearing those shoes | 20:41 |
| kanzure | they are the whole brain emulation, knife-edge brain cutting microscopy, phd molecular biology collective in sf | 20:41 |
| kanzure | also artisan thing | 20:41 |
| @fenn | your typical science meets burning man clusterfuck | 20:41 |
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| kanzure | man why'd we lose both superkuh and xentrac | 20:42 |
| kanzure | i bet he's just gaming | 20:42 |
| @fenn | grr i hate google plus | 20:43 |
| @fenn | and especially picasa | 20:43 |
| digshadow | fenn: does mike kan hang out on irc? is that his handle? | 20:43 |
| @fenn | not that i know of. | 20:44 |
| digshadow | ah okay | 20:44 |
| digshadow | the other fellow that knows me is miloh | 20:44 |
| digshadow | who I take it you know? | 20:44 |
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| digshadow | fenn: anywya let me know if anything crazy is going down | 20:45 |
| digshadow | its a long way to SF | 20:45 |
| digshadow | but if something cool is going down give me a ring | 20:45 |
| @fenn | this is after it asked me to re-enter my password for no reason http://fennetic.net/irc/picasa_fail.png | 20:45 |
| digshadow | (or something cloesr to me of course) | 20:45 |
| kanzure | there's the integrated plasmonics people near you.. they are fun. | 20:46 |
| digshadow | I might switch file sharing site | 20:46 |
| digshadow | maybe host my own for better stability | 20:46 |
| digshadow | not sure | 20:46 |
| kanzure | we can host you | 20:46 |
| @fenn | integrated plasmonics moved to the mission district in sf | 20:46 |
| kanzure | what | 20:46 |
| kanzure | those posers | 20:46 |
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| kanzure | well... delinquentme is near mountain view | 20:47 |
| kanzure | but i wouldn't inflict him on others | 20:47 |
| kanzure | juul is east bay at the moment i think | 20:47 |
| @fenn | digshadow: yeah i know miloh, he's a nice guy, probably the only person who ever showed any interest in what i was doing with the makerbot | 20:47 |
| kanzure | digshadow: have you stopped by biocurious ever? | 20:47 |
| @fenn | anyway i live near DC now | 20:48 |
| nmz787_i | ttyl | 20:50 |
| @fenn | does the knightscope robot say "exterminate!" as it trundles around | 20:53 |
| digshadow | kanzure: no but I talked to them briefly at maker's faire | 20:54 |
| digshadow | donated some old glassware to them | 20:54 |
| digshadow | I still have more for htem | 20:54 |
| digshadow | if I meet them again | 20:54 |
| kanzure | unfortunately they have always been extremely dysfunctional | 20:54 |
| kanzure | but otherwise worth knowing the existence of | 20:55 |
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| kanzure | it sort of became a place for unemployed boring people to meet | 20:55 |
| kanzure | and then jojack moved to san diego to start another one | 20:55 |
| digshadow | no idea what integrated plasmonics does | 20:55 |
| digshadow | looks like they aren't too open | 20:55 |
| digshadow | ha | 20:55 |
| digshadow | fenn: interestingly enough | 20:56 |
| digshadow | we met in berlin | 20:56 |
| digshadow | but turned out to live near each other | 20:56 |
| kanzure | ccc? | 20:56 |
| digshadow | you're not entirely wrong | 20:57 |
| digshadow | ehsm | 20:57 |
| digshadow | which was in berlin | 20:57 |
| digshadow | to be a side event to ccc | 20:57 |
| digshadow | but that year ccc moved | 20:57 |
| gradstudentbot | The real reason I wanted to join this lab was because I love to clean glassware. | 20:57 |
| @fenn | Exceptionally Hard and Soft Meeting | 20:57 |
| digshadow | yes | 20:57 |
| @fenn | http://ehsm.eu | 20:58 |
| @fenn | what are those tunnels | 20:58 |
| @fenn | did you nuke the communists | 20:59 |
| @fenn | lana sator is my hero http://fennetic.net/irc/lana_sator_energomash2.jpg | 21:01 |
| kanzure | "Born in USSR, died in Russia: an exploration of decaying Soviet technology" ""The Cold War was a period of ambitious military, industrial and scientific projects, motivated by the competition with the opposing superpower. After the collapse of the Soviet Union, many of their facilities were simply abandoned, forgotten and left to rot. Urban explorer Lana Sator's expeditions and pictures give a dramatic insight into the breadth of ... | 21:01 |
| kanzure | ... technologies that people can build given enough motive, and how frail those motives can be" | 21:01 |
| kanzure | get off my brain wavelength god damn it | 21:01 |
| @fenn | i found it first. in 2012 | 21:02 |
| kanzure | ok you can stay | 21:02 |
| @fenn | i believe she is sitting in an energia test stand | 21:03 |
| kanzure | huh, clifford wolf is doing vhdl things. i wonder if he'll fuck that up as much as openscad. | 21:03 |
| kanzure | (on that page) | 21:03 |
| kanzure | oh, at least it mentions openscad. hah. | 21:04 |
| kanzure | lots of people to stalk | 21:05 |
| @fenn | must.. close.. tabs... | 21:07 |
| kanzure | don't do it. closing a tab is a bug. | 21:07 |
| @fenn | but do i really need https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Balloon_grade_helium | 21:08 |
| @fenn | it just redirects to helium | 21:08 |
| @fenn | shit now you got me reading it | 21:09 |
| kanzure | you can leave it open without assimilating | 21:10 |
| kanzure | it just becomes technical debt or something | 21:10 |
| @fenn | "tab guilt" | 21:10 |
| @fenn | actually i just run out of ram and swap and everything comes screeching to a halt | 21:10 |
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| @fenn | crowdfunding science works better than official institutional science because individuals can use surplus junk equipment which costs basically nothing, but for which they would have no chance of getting a grant | 21:12 |
| @fenn | grants are judged on the soundness of the science, not the dollar amount so much | 21:13 |
| kanzure | begging is not a sustainable business model | 21:14 |
| @fenn | i'd rather throw N dollars at a larger number of dingbat proposals than a tiny number of "old-guy approved" proposals | 21:14 |
| @fenn | but then i'm not approving the grants | 21:14 |
| @fenn | nobody ever got rich by not asking for money | 21:14 |
| kanzure | digshadow: i want computer-controlled microscope hooked up to an irc bot (for motion control) that streams video | 21:15 |
| digshadow | so I can do cnc: left | 21:15 |
| digshadow | ? | 21:15 |
| digshadow | wouldn't a javascript app be much nicer to control? | 21:15 |
| kanzure | in my head it would be more hilarious, like "gradstudentbot, move left pls kthx" | 21:15 |
| gradstudentbot | You used the wrong formula. | 21:15 |
| digshadow | irc seems awkward | 21:15 |
| @fenn | no it should be hooked up to a GPS sensor so you have to drive your car around the city while looking at your phone | 21:15 |
| digshadow | I like that idea :) | 21:15 |
| kanzure | well, the irc aspect is just for collaborative viewing reasons | 21:15 |
| kanzure | and getting links to a saved photo of the current image | 21:16 |
| kanzure | or a link to the stream | 21:16 |
| kanzure | and control because i'm lazy | 21:16 |
| digshadow | or you use your computer control | 21:16 |
| digshadow | to make a giant mosaic | 21:16 |
| digshadow | http://siliconpr0n.org/map/cbm/65ce02/r1_top_metal_mit20x/ | 21:16 |
| @fenn | that only works for static chips, he wants to poke at worm brains or something | 21:17 |
| digshadow | ah okay | 21:17 |
| @fenn | squiggly moving blobs | 21:17 |
| kanzure | well, not just moving blobs | 21:17 |
| kanzure | i just think it's pathetic thta we don't have a microscope | 21:17 |
| kanzure | hooked up to irc | 21:17 |
| kanzure | that's all. i'm sure it would be used for non-living things. | 21:17 |
| @fenn | .title http://youtube.com/watch?v=lCmbwSCYF9o | 21:17 |
| yoleaux | ESKMO - We Have Invisible Friends | 21:17 |
| digshadow | kanzure: you are not in bay area right | 21:17 |
| kanzure | nope, i just visit to get paid | 21:17 |
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| digshadow | kanzure: what is stopping you from doing it | 21:18 |
| @fenn | it would interfere with his IRC time | 21:19 |
| kanzure | well honestly i was just going to offload it all on fenn or nmz787 | 21:19 |
| kanzure | delegation! | 21:20 |
| @fenn | i think it would be a useful exercise for you to learn basic electronics and motion control | 21:20 |
| kanzure | because i want to delegate it means i don't have experience with electronics? | 21:21 |
| @fenn | actually with the reprap stuff it's now so easy you wouldn't learn anything | 21:21 |
| kanzure | the electronics aren't hard at all | 21:21 |
| kanzure | (in this context) | 21:22 |
| kanzure | man is that really what you think of me | 21:23 |
| @fenn | well you never finished your robot arm | 21:23 |
| kanzure | because dave took it and then legal reasons | 21:23 |
| @fenn | what? he just walked off with a 500 pound beast? | 21:24 |
| kanzure | technically it was stored on the back of his truck | 21:24 |
| @fenn | that sounds like a bad storage place :( | 21:24 |
| kanzure | well, actually, it was something about him moving? so he loaded it back up. i think that's the story. | 21:25 |
| @fenn | so where did it end up? | 21:25 |
| kanzure | dunno. | 21:25 |
| @fenn | probably sitting right next to my box of hextatic parts (rawr) | 21:25 |
| kanzure | the point is, i had to get lawyers involved and a silly $300 pile of junk was not top of my priorities compared to income owed to me | 21:25 |
| kanzure | nope | 21:25 |
| @fenn | guh. so i've been thinking about building a boat so i can just put all my stuff in the boat and live in the boat and sail wherever i want to go | 21:26 |
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| @fenn | then i dont have to keep stockpiles of components and tools stashed all over the continent and lose them every 5 years or so | 21:27 |
| @fenn | stupid panama canal though | 21:27 |
| @fenn | there needs to be a trans-rocky mountain boat pipeline | 21:27 |
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| kanzure | tough crowd in here | 21:36 |
| @fenn | .title https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jsfL19FV3qg | 21:38 |
| yoleaux | Dnepr Launch of SkySat-1 11/21/13 | 21:38 |
| kanzure | damn i should have made a snappy remark about hextatic instead | 21:39 |
| kanzure | i will endeavor to be more scathing in the future | 21:39 |
| @fenn | such scathe | 21:39 |
| kanzure | .ety scathe | 21:39 |
| yoleaux | scathe (v.): "c.1200, from Old Norse skaða "to hurt, harm, damage, injure," from Proto-Germanic *skath- (cognates: Old English sceaþian "to hurt, injure," Old Saxon skathon, Old Frisian skethia, Middle Dutch scaden, Dutch schaden, Old High German scadon, …" — http://etymonline.com/index.php?term=scathe | 21:39 |
| @fenn | oh how i long for the days before "make" was a noun | 21:40 |
| kanzure | "the build is broken"? | 21:41 |
| kanzure | "what's the make of the car?" | 21:41 |
| @fenn | bah | 21:41 |
| @fenn | i just mean that it used to be obvious that "maker" was a synonym for "douchebag who bough into tim o'reilly's magazine empire" | 21:42 |
| digshadow | fenn: what about the launch? | 21:42 |
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| @fenn | oh. uh, that rocket knows how to make an entrance | 21:43 |
| @fenn | and an exit | 21:43 |
| @fenn | i'm sort of curious how you get anywhere near it | 21:43 |
| @fenn | the russian space industry seems quite a bit different from the american one | 21:45 |
| digshadow | fenn: how so | 21:46 |
| @fenn | well they seem a lot more personal, like "hi i'm vitaly so and so here's the rocket i built in 1986 to destroy capitalism" | 21:46 |
| @fenn | 3d animated gifs of the cad models of the rocket, lots of historical info and timelines | 21:47 |
| @fenn | you can buy a book written by the rocket designers about their rocket, etc. | 21:48 |
| @fenn | meanwhile lockheed martin or raytheon are all, "please select the region you are doing business from." | 21:48 |
| @fenn | with a map of the globe and a "ISO-9001 corporate buzzword compliant" | 21:49 |
| kanzure | reply from beejal <lajeeb@gmail.com>: | 21:49 |
| kanzure | "hi Bryan - thank you for your interest. sadly we never got to a production stage for this system. our group didn't get further than a proof-of-concept prototype for the dlp photolithography system...and also we never got around to creating an open-source documentation for it. (it is still on our list of things-to-do). it has been awhile, but from what i remember we bought a used dlp projector from ebay, replaced the original bulb with a UV ... | 21:49 |
| kanzure | ... bulb, and projected images from the computer to the projector onto a photosensitive resist on a substrate. i remember focusing became problematic for micrometer work, but the system worked good for creating relatively larger microfluidic devices. our colleague, john waynelovich, did a lot of work with the dlp system" | 21:49 |
| kanzure | huh, so i guess they really are just using an unmodified microscope | 21:49 |
| @fenn | but more importantly lockheed has zero interest in talking to anybody about anything (and are legally prohibited from doing so in most cases) | 21:50 |
| kanzure | he links to https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T1VupG7pOcQ#t=63 | 21:50 |
| kanzure | .title | 21:50 |
| yoleaux | LightBuilders | 21:50 |
| @fenn | well duh | 21:51 |
| @fenn | micron is approaching the wavelength of light | 21:51 |
| @fenn | you need big bucks for diffraction limited optics | 21:51 |
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| kanzure | why do i need diffraction limited optics to do micron-resolution-anything? | 21:52 |
| @fenn | because the diffraction limit is like 600nm | 21:52 |
| @fenn | .wik diffraction limit | 21:53 |
| yoleaux | "The resolution of an optical imaging system – a microscope, telescope, or camera – can be limited by factors such as imperfections in the lenses or misalignment. However, there is a fundamental maximum to the resolution of any optical system which is due to diffraction." — http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diffraction_limit | 21:53 |
| @fenn | wow i wish i could read that equation | 21:53 |
| @fenn | .wa diffraction limit | 21:53 |
| yoleaux | fenn: Sorry, no result! | 21:53 |
| digshadow | yoleaux: thats not entirely true | 21:53 |
| digshadow | thats for far field optics | 21:53 |
| @fenn | are you talking about PALM and STORM etc | 21:54 |
| @fenn | or sub-wavelength gratings | 21:54 |
| @fenn | oh and two-photon | 21:54 |
| @fenn | that wouldn't be too hard to do with a DLP actually | 21:55 |
| kanzure | what specifically are you "well duh"ing? | 21:55 |
| @fenn | "i remember focusing became problematic for micrometer work" | 21:56 |
| kanzure | why doesn't anyone take measurements | 21:57 |
| kanzure | does that mean 1 micron, 10 microns, 100 microns? | 21:57 |
| @fenn | i assumed he meant 1 micron but i see your point | 21:57 |
| kanzure | also, in that video, that was a projector pointed straight at the material without additional optics | 21:59 |
| @fenn | huh how would that work | 21:59 |
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| @fenn | it wouldnt be able to focus that close | 21:59 |
| * fenn watches the video | 21:59 | |
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| kanzure | hrm wait no, there's a black thing in front of it | 21:59 |
| kanzure | and there is probably a lense in the black panel | 22:00 |
| @fenn | "design features using powerpoint" | 22:00 |
| @fenn | i hope i'm not the only one rolling my eyes | 22:00 |
| kanzure | well this system makes everyone else look like a moron | 22:01 |
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| @fenn | it has a lens on it | 22:01 |
| kanzure | not the end of the world | 22:01 |
| kanzure | now which lens? hrm | 22:01 |
| kanzure | description says "Complex microfluidics features can easily be achieved, down to double digit micron sizes." | 22:02 |
| kanzure | well which digits! argh | 22:02 |
| @fenn | those lines are much bigger than 1 micron | 22:02 |
| kanzure | definitely | 22:02 |
| @fenn | much bigger than 100 microns | 22:02 |
| gradstudentbot | Oh yeah, isn't that already a part on the biobrick registry? | 22:03 |
| @fenn | i would estimate 500 microns | 22:03 |
| @fenn | if it has the same dimensions as the powerpoint slide.. although i bet it's blurred somewhat and the lines are wider than that | 22:04 |
| @fenn | what is their magical white coating | 22:04 |
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| @fenn | i was playing around with a magnifying glass and a cellphone, you can easily shrink the screen image down quite a bit | 22:09 |
| @fenn | i could get it down to about 1 cm across | 22:09 |
| @fenn | a projector is much higher power obviously | 22:10 |
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| kanzure | "at the moment we have moved on to other projects - john with his soft robotics, and abtin and i with software development. we are all getting together next week - ill see if there exists any collection of notes that i can forward to you." | 22:13 |
| @fenn | so where are all these super high resolution microscopy images like http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:2color-STED-example.png | 22:15 |
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| kanzure | what do you mean where? who's? | 22:15 |
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| @fenn | well i just haven't seen very many full-page high resolution photos | 22:16 |
| @fenn | like the nikon small world competition | 22:16 |
| kanzure | there's lots of better images on youtube :\ | 22:16 |
| @fenn | but youtube is videos | 22:16 |
| kanzure | yeah i know :( | 22:16 |
| @fenn | what? | 22:17 |
| @fenn | these techniques only produce static images | 22:17 |
| @fenn | or 3d datasets at least | 22:17 |
| kanzure | i'm confused. are you asking me to find you normal microscopy pictures of microscopic channels? | 22:17 |
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| @fenn | btw Science magazine has a pretty cool cover image today https://www.sciencemag.org/content/344/6187.cover-expansion (sorry i cant find higher resolution image) | 22:21 |
| @fenn | it is a 3d rendering in the spirit of david goodsell or drew berry | 22:22 |
| @fenn | also they've gone and tarted it all up with explanatory text | 22:23 |
| kanzure | paperbot: http://www.sciencemag.org/cgi/content/short/344/6187/1023 | 22:23 |
| paperbot | http://libgen.org/scimag/get.php?doi=10.1126%2Fscience.1252884 | 22:24 |
| kanzure | hooray now i can download at 4 bytes/second from russia | 22:24 |
| @fenn | i'm getting a solid 5KB/s | 22:24 |
| kanzure | so digshadow claims the blame for azonenberg.. interesting. | 22:28 |
| kanzure | that part of the story is not usually mentioned | 22:30 |
| kanzure | or ever | 22:30 |
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| kanzure | welcome back | 22:33 |
| kanzure | that paper has neat visualizations | 22:34 |
| kanzure | 'synaptosome' biologists being biologists.. | 22:34 |
| @fenn | no fair i'm still downloading | 22:34 |
| @fenn | also i dont get why i can't just download it with elinks on gnusha | 22:35 |
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| kanzure | just use this one, | 22:41 |
| kanzure | http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/neuro/Composition%20of%20isolated%20synaptic%20boutons%20reveals%20the%20amounts%20of%20vesicle%20trafficking%20proteins.pdf | 22:41 |
| @fenn | it's done now | 22:42 |
| @fenn | wait a minute | 22:42 |
| @fenn | i have the paper sitting right next to me | 22:43 |
| @fenn | what the hell is wrong with me | 22:43 |
| @fenn | can zoom in more on the pdf though :) | 22:44 |
| kanzure | magnifying glass | 22:46 |
| @fenn | it has half tone | 22:47 |
| @fenn | ok kanzure now you have to make a synaptic protein game based on pokemon | 22:48 |
| @fenn | clathrin, i choose you! | 22:49 |
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| @fenn | digshadow: fwiw the astronomy guys use cast pitch (pine tar resin) to lap telescope mirrors | 23:00 |
| digshadow | cool | 23:01 |
| @fenn | it never completely solidifies so it keeps things aligned but in contact | 23:01 |
| @fenn | it might be worth your time to investigate "superfinishing" a slow surface speed abrasive process developed by chrysler for accurate grinding of roller bearings | 23:02 |
| @fenn | the workpiece floats on a microscopic layer of coolant and moves in random directions over a relatively coarse abrasive that acts mroe like a cutting tool than a smusher | 23:03 |
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| @fenn | the superfinishing process rapidly removes any bumps to give a mirror finish and flat surface geometry, and after that material removal rate is very slow | 23:04 |
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| digshadow | fenn: hmm | 23:05 |
| digshadow | i'd be suspicious that it might be smooth but uneven | 23:06 |
| @fenn | no it has to be flat because the process relies on a very short distance between the surfaces to provide the hydrodynamic floating force | 23:06 |
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| @fenn | superfinishing seems to be a lost art, and those who know how aren't talking | 23:10 |
| @fenn | wikipedia/darmann abrasive products claim it leaves a cross-hatch instead of a mirror finish; this is wrong | 23:15 |
| @fenn | "Swigert Jr., Arthur M. (1940), The story of superfinish," this book has the real story | 23:17 |
| @fenn | wow i feel like i'm in high school shop class in new delhi: http://youtube.com/watch?v=VnupA3d6f0E | 23:23 |
| kanzure | .title | 23:23 |
| yoleaux | SUPER FINISHING | 23:23 |
| @fenn | i'm going to start wearing a turban like that in the machine shop | 23:27 |
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| --- Log closed Sat Jun 07 00:00:27 2014 | ||
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