| --- Log opened Sun Jun 08 00:00:28 2014 | ||
| kanzure | this objective has one too many lenses (lots) https://www.google.com/patents/US5969803 | 00:08 |
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| nmz787 | kanzure: lithography is done a lot without refractive lenses a lot these days, they get around oil immersion by using diffraction | 00:35 |
| nmz787 | err, s/diffraction/interference/ | 00:36 |
| nmz787 | http://spie.org/x104569.xml | 00:36 |
| nmz787 | probably it would be better to have either A) better fab techniques for highly complex 3D shapes | 00:37 |
| nmz787 | B) better fab tech that allows gradients of refractive index in materials | 00:37 |
| nmz787 | but those are both really hard | 00:37 |
| nmz787 | to accomplish | 00:37 |
| kanzure | i don't care about "these days", how about 1962 | 00:37 |
| kanzure | fuck "these days" | 00:38 |
| nmz787 | like, are you going to place every molecule of a lens with a 2-photon development machine? | 00:38 |
| nmz787 | and you're also going to mass produce them? | 00:38 |
| kanzure | hm? | 00:38 |
| kanzure | .title | 00:38 |
| yoleaux | Optical beam lithography beyond the diffraction limit | 00:39 |
| nmz787 | paperbot: http://scitation.aip.org/content/avs/journal/jvstb/27/6/10.1116/1.3237093 | 00:39 |
| kanzure | .title | 00:39 |
| yoleaux | Coherent diffraction lithography: Periodic patterns via mask-based interference lithography | 00:39 |
| kanzure | s/yoleaux/titlemonster | 00:40 |
| kanzure | it looks like people in the 60s were just buying random nikon gear | 00:40 |
| kanzure | http://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_odkw=Ultra+Micro-NIKKOR&_sop=15&_osacat=0&_trksid=p2045573.m570.l1313.TR0.TRC0.H0.XUltra+Micro-NIKKOR+30mm&_nkw=Ultra+Micro-NIKKOR+30mm&_sacat=0&_from=R40 | 00:40 |
| kanzure | i bet they were doing normal photography reduction things, like 35 mm film stuff | 00:41 |
| paperbot | http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/paperbot/Coherent%20diffraction%20lithography%3A%20Periodic%20patterns%20via%20mask-based%20interference%20lithography.txt | 00:41 |
| nmz787 | http://diyhpl.us/~nmz787/pdf/Coherent_diffraction_lithography--Periodic_patterns_via_mask-based_interference_lithography.pdf | 00:41 |
| nmz787 | hmm | 00:42 |
| nmz787 | its got an IP address in it | 00:42 |
| nmz787 | :/ | 00:42 |
| kanzure | joepie91__: poke^ | 00:42 |
| nmz787 | this is probably why i don't have my degree in hand yet | 00:42 |
| kanzure | ? | 00:43 |
| nmz787 | the whole computed interference thing is hot these days (i almost want to say they call it holography) | 00:43 |
| kanzure | because you don't have a darkroom? | 00:43 |
| kanzure | oh. | 00:43 |
| kanzure | every creep needs a good darkroom | 00:43 |
| joepie91__ | (please hold) | 00:43 |
| gradstudentbot | Huh, this western worked on the first try. | 00:44 |
| nmz787 | kanzure: nah cause i upload papers all the time | 00:44 |
| kanzure | i.. uh. i doubt that. | 00:44 |
| nmz787 | :) | 00:44 |
| nmz787 | .wik talbot effect | 00:45 |
| yoleaux | "The Talbot effect is a near-field diffraction effect first observed in 1836 by Henry Fox Talbot." — http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talbot_effect | 00:45 |
| kanzure | ugh | 00:45 |
| nmz787 | bam, 1836 | 00:45 |
| nmz787 | kanzure: near-field optics are also probably of interest to you, as you've been complaining about far-field optics | 00:45 |
| joepie91__ | kanzure: okay to reference IP-containing PDF in ticket? | 00:45 |
| kanzure | joepie91__: yep | 00:46 |
| nmz787 | wait, ticket for what? | 00:46 |
| kanzure | pdfparanoia | 00:46 |
| nmz787 | i didn't use that tho | 00:46 |
| nmz787 | i guess for ref to know what pubs put them in what journals it is good | 00:46 |
| nmz787 | but i used my uploader bookmarklet thing | 00:46 |
| gradstudentbot | It's contaminated. | 00:47 |
| joepie91__ | kanzure: #42 | 00:48 |
| joepie91__ | https://github.com/kanzure/pdfparanoia/issues/42 | 00:48 |
| joepie91__ | seems to be the only watermark | 00:48 |
| gradstudentbot | You know they keep the mice in better conditions than us. | 00:48 |
| kanzure | i know, i know, radstudent | 00:49 |
| joepie91__ | ratstudent? | 00:49 |
| joepie91__ | :P | 00:49 |
| gradstudentbot | I am busy researching. | 00:49 |
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| kanzure | nmz787: i think ray tracing is a good idea before building light microscopes | 00:53 |
| kanzure | also i think you should be able to get realistic renderings of microscopic images | 00:54 |
| kanzure | based on your lens and optic train etc | 00:54 |
| kanzure | and then you could rapidly test optics things before buying terrible objectives | 00:56 |
| nmz787 | hmm, assuming those objectives have 3d cad files available for your eval | 00:58 |
| kanzure | also could be used for testing projection photolithography | 00:58 |
| kanzure | well, brlcad can generate them with the lens routine | 00:58 |
| kanzure | based on numerical aperature, refractive index, some other parameters i've never heard of | 00:58 |
| nmz787 | most objectives are aspeheric | 00:58 |
| nmz787 | so you need several coefficients | 00:58 |
| kanzure | does edmund give thosae numbers? | 00:59 |
| kanzure | *those | 00:59 |
| nmz787 | i think so | 00:59 |
| nmz787 | or that other company | 00:59 |
| nmz787 | thor labs | 00:59 |
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| kanzure | brlcad has its own ray tracer but i have no idea if it will generate realistic images through condensors or convex lenses | 00:59 |
| kanzure | *condensers | 01:00 |
| gradstudentbot | That's the control group, right? | 01:01 |
| nmz787 | http://www.pdx.edu/nano-development-lab/neutral-atom-microscopy | 01:04 |
| nmz787 | "We presently appear to hold the resolution record for this form of microscopy as well, now about 1/3 um, approaching the limit of far-field visible light microscopy. Calculations show that the resolution can continue to improve by large steps." | 01:04 |
| nmz787 | huh, loks like they just butted a scope up to a scintillator or something | 01:05 |
| nmz787 | "The Centre for Organic Electronics at the University of Newcastle, Australia has picked up the pinhole NAM concept and has published on the source section of their prototype." | 01:05 |
| nmz787 | this is cool too, I met this prof http://www.pdx.edu/nano-development-lab/raman-tenom-ters | 01:07 |
| nmz787 | http://www.pdx.edu/nano-development-lab/tip-enhancedfarfield-multi-photon-fluorescence | 01:07 |
| kanzure | "center for organic animaltronics" | 01:08 |
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| justanotheruser | http://www.scientificamerican.com/article/students-build-the-first-eukaryotic-chromosome-from-scratch/ | 01:34 |
| ebowden | Oh, I remember that. | 01:35 |
| kanzure | blah blah blah get a class of students to do your work for you.. big deal. | 01:38 |
| kanzure | they paid to take that class haha | 01:38 |
| kanzure | (what a fucked up labor model) | 01:39 |
| nmz787 | :/ | 01:39 |
| nmz787 | summer camp | 01:40 |
| kanzure | not even the soviets had that weird of a system | 01:40 |
| nmz787 | well | 01:40 |
| nmz787 | i went to this air and space museum like two weeks ago | 01:40 |
| nmz787 | they had some rockets | 01:40 |
| kanzure | they just hired millions of people and told them they shall now do science. they didn't have scientists paying them for the "privilege".. | 01:40 |
| nmz787 | and space suits and a replica of the moon lander | 01:41 |
| nmz787 | sr71 blackbid | 01:41 |
| nmz787 | anyway | 01:41 |
| nmz787 | one cosmonaut grew up on some commune farm | 01:41 |
| nmz787 | which idk were they chill or like prison | 01:41 |
| kanzure | i'm sure experiences varied between the different ussr/russian science cities | 01:41 |
| kanzure | oh, i bet they were doing 35 mm contact lithography using normal photography stuff | 01:43 |
| kanzure | "The first integrated circuits had features of 200 micrometres which were printed using contact lithography. This technique was popular in the 1960s until it was substituted by proximity printing, where a gap is introduced between the photomask and the substrate. Proximity printing had poorer resolution than contact printing (due to the gap allowing more diffraction to occur) but generated far less defects. The resolution was sufficient for ... | 01:43 |
| kanzure | ... down to 2 micrometre production. In 1978, the step-and-repeat projection system appeared. [1]" | 01:43 |
| kanzure | hmm 200 microns.. what's the feature size on normal 35 mm film | 01:43 |
| kanzure | "Summicron 35mm f/2 lens is the king of resolution, rated at 7500 lines/mm" | 01:48 |
| kanzure | "Even ISO 25 film (the finest resolution ever made in 35mm film) has an average Dye Cloud size of 4.9 microns." | 01:48 |
| kanzure | "Fuji 100 ISO slide film the best resolution was about 50 LPM which corresponds to a line thickness of 0.010 mm, 10.0 microns" | 01:49 |
| kanzure | "According to the DP Review review of the TZ3 and to its specification it has horizontal and vertical resolutions of 1575 and 1525 LPH, lines per picture height with a 5.68 x 4.26 mm sensor. Dividing these sizes by the corresponding resolutions gives minimum line thicknesses of 0.00270 mm, 2.70 microns and 0.00279 mm, 2.79 microns." | 01:50 |
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| kanzure | "One of the most interesting works describing a new method for fabrication of cheap contact photomasks using photographic films was published by Deng et al. [12]. Computer aided designed (CAD) files were first printed bigger than real size onto paper using an office printer with resolution of 600 dots/in, and then reduced by a 35mm camera to the required dimensions onto 35 mm films. After development, these photographic films were used as ... | 01:51 |
| kanzure | ... photomasks in contact photolithography. Even if the resolution claimed by authors is of 15 μm and therefore distant from the few microns resolution needed to fabricate complex microfluidic devices, the procedure is well suited for many medium resolution applications, such those typical required in microfluidics." | 01:51 |
| kanzure | last quote is from http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/optics/photolithography/Photomasks%20fabrication%20based%20on%20optical%20reduction%20for%20microfluidic%20applications.pdf | 01:52 |
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| dpk | paperbot: http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/1467-968X.00044/pdf | 02:07 |
| paperbot | http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/paperbot/599077ec3d69774b82754bcd428fd028.txt | 02:07 |
| dpk | sigh | 02:07 |
| kanzure | sadly paperbot is not all knowing | 02:09 |
| kanzure | that is planned for v2 | 02:09 |
| * dpk nods | 02:10 | |
| nmz787 | yep, they've had e-beam write for a long time | 02:15 |
| nmz787 | i think since like the 30s or 40s | 02:15 |
| nmz787 | dpk: http://diyhpl.us/~nmz787/pdf/ROOT_AND_BRANCH_REVISING_THE_ETYMOLOGICAL_COMPONENT_OF_THE_OXFORD_ENGLISH_DICTIONARY.pdf | 02:16 |
| dpk | ooooh, thanks! | 02:17 |
| nmz787 | kanzure: some lens paths in this http://www.chiphistory.org/documents/microlithogrphy&mask_making.pdf | 02:24 |
| nmz787 | hmm i'm having trouble finding the history of e-beam photomask pattern generation | 02:29 |
| nmz787 | this is getting close but is talking about maskless exposure with e-beams, starting in 60's/70's http://proceedings.spiedigitallibrary.org/proceeding.aspx?articleid=724844 | 02:30 |
| gradstudentbot | Wow, that would be a great sample to add to my collection. | 02:32 |
| nmz787 | http://diyhpl.us/~nmz787/pdf/The_Development_of_Device_Lithography.pdf | 02:34 |
| nmz787 | http://diyhpl.us/~nmz787/pdf/Marching%20of%20the%20microlithography%20horses:%20electron,%20ion,%20and%20photon--past,%20present,%20and%20future.pdf | 02:39 |
| nmz787 | kanzure: ahh, also reduction lithography | 02:40 |
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| yoleaux | dpk: fix wp:en:Fritz_Zernicke pronunciation key | 07:21 |
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| kanzure | nmz787: i don't think starting with electron beam lithography is necessary | 08:05 |
| kanzure | paperbot: http://www.opticsinfobase.org/ao/abstract.cfm?uri=ao-53-9-1802 | 08:13 |
| kanzure | .title | 08:14 |
| paperbot | http://libgen.org/scimag/get.php?doi=10.1364%2FAO.53.001802 | 08:14 |
| yoleaux | Rapid fabrication of on-demand high-resolution optical masks with a CD–DVD pickup unit | 08:14 |
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| kanzure | paperbot: http://pubs.rsc.org/en/content/articlelanding/2003/an/b304354a | 08:31 |
| paperbot | http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/paperbot/PDMS-based%20microfluidic%20device%20with%20multi-height%20structures%20fabricated%20by%20single-step%20photolithography%20using%20printed%20circuit%20board%20as%20masters.pdf | 08:32 |
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| kanzure | paperbot: http://arxiv.org/abs/1312.0617 | 09:01 |
| paperbot | http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/paperbot/Fully%20Automatic%20Liquid%20Metal%20Printer%20towards%20Personal%20Electronics%20Manufacture.pdf | 09:02 |
| kanzure | paperbot: http://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s10404-010-0630-3 | 09:10 |
| paperbot | http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/paperbot/b8a3c423d4692dd80b4adfe6d7a43b16.txt | 09:10 |
| kanzure | paperbot: http://pubs.rsc.org/en/content/articlelanding/2012/lc/c2lc20799k | 09:14 |
| kanzure | .title | 09:14 |
| yoleaux | Design of pressure-driven microfluidic networks using electric circuit analogy | 09:14 |
| paperbot | http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/paperbot/Design%20of%20pressure-driven%20microfluidic%20networks%20using%20electric%20circuit%20analogy.pdf | 09:15 |
| kanzure | paperbot is the awesomest | 09:15 |
| kanzure | that is a good paper | 09:18 |
| kanzure | request: A. M. Christenson*, and B. H. Augustine, "Rapid Prototyping of Photolithographic Masks Using 35 mm Slide Film", Proc. NCUR, (2000) | 09:27 |
| kanzure | or "Rapid Prototyping of Masks From Various 35mm Film Types for Use in Photolithography" | 09:28 |
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| archels | paperbot: http://www.cell.com/trends/cognitive-sciences/pdf/S1364-6613(14)00055-2.pdf | 11:32 |
| paperbot | TypeError: unicode() argument 2 must be string, not None (file "/usr/local/lib/python2.7/dist-packages/requests/models.py", line 825, in text) | 11:32 |
| kanzure | huh | 11:43 |
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| kanzure | .title https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jeopyhjX9vY | 12:33 |
| yoleaux | 1980 Kodak Colorburst 250 Instant Camera commercial | 12:33 |
| kanzure | .title https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-mIUJ3Df1Po | 12:43 |
| yoleaux | Instant film to transparent negative | 12:43 |
| kanzure | .title http://content.photojojo.com/diy/instant-film-transparencies/ | 12:44 |
| yoleaux | How To Make Photo Transparencies with Impossible Project Instant Film! | 12:44 |
| gradstudentbot | These findings indicate that extensive genetic engineering of human hematopoiesis can be achieved with lentiviral vectors. | 12:44 |
| kanzure | hrmm https://www.the-impossible-project.com/instantlab/ | 12:46 |
| kanzure | damn... "According to the data sheet for Polacolor 100 peel apart films: Resolution (1000:1): 10-12 line pairs/mm" | 12:52 |
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| poppingtonic | paperbot: http://http://dx.doi.org/10.1145/224056.224075 | 13:02 |
| paperbot | InvalidURL: (LocationParseError(...), 'Failed to parse: Failed to parse: http:') (file "/usr/local/lib/python2.7/dist-packages/requests/models.py", line 558, in send) | 13:02 |
| poppingtonic | paperbot: http://dx.doi.org/10.1145/224056.224075 | 13:02 |
| paperbot | http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/paperbot/On%20micro-kernel%20construction.pdf | 13:02 |
| kanzure | .title https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9DdrjDmlaWw | 13:03 |
| yoleaux | How to make a negative from an Instant film | 13:03 |
| kanzure | i wonder if any of the instant films are high-resolution | 13:04 |
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| kanzure | nmz787: you should stalk these guys (they are in oregon) http://outputcity.com/boutus.htm | 13:22 |
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| kanzure | "For example, Agfa 10E56 holographic film has a resolution of over 4,000 lines/mm—equivalent to a pixel size of 0.125 micrometres—and an active dynamic range of over five orders of magnitude in brightness, compared to typical scientific CCDs that might have pixels of about 10 micrometres and a dynamic range of 3-4 orders of magnitude." | 14:26 |
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| kanzure | fenn, do people use photographic film for homebrew pcb stuff? | 14:42 |
| kanzure | and if so, what resolution limits | 14:42 |
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| kanzure | http://holowiki.nss.rpi.edu/wiki/DIY_Silver_Halide_Film | 14:48 |
| seba- | kanzure, i use toner transfer | 14:50 |
| kanzure | apparently everyone else does too :( | 14:51 |
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| kanzure | "Additionally, the US Victory Mail, and the British "Airgraph" system it was based on, were used for delivering mail between those at home and troops serving overseas during World War II. The systems worked by photographing large amounts of censored mail reduced to thumb-nail size onto reels of microfilm, which weighed much less than the originals would have. The film reels were shipped by priority air freight to and from the home fronts, ... | 15:20 |
| kanzure | ... sent to their prescribed destinations for enlarging at receiving stations near the recipients, and printed out on lightweight photo paper. These facsimiles of the letter-sheets were reproduced about one-quarter the original size and the miniature mails were then delivered to the addressee. Use of these microfilm systems saved significant volumes of cargo capacity needed for vital war supplies. An additional benefit was that the small, ... | 15:20 |
| kanzure | ... light weight reels of microfilm were almost always transported by air, and as such were much quicker than any surface mail services." | 15:20 |
| kanzure | from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Microform | 15:20 |
| kanzure | "It has low intrinsic value and does not attract thieves. Few heavily-used microform collections suffer any losses due to theft." | 15:21 |
| kanzure | yes... "few" | 15:22 |
| gradstudentbot | I am sponsored by Thermo Fisher. | 15:23 |
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| kanzure | cool, there used to be microfilm cameras | 16:26 |
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| seba- | you can now take | 16:29 |
| seba- | probably shitloads of letters | 16:29 |
| seba- | and put it on a microsd | 16:29 |
| seba- | and mail it | 16:29 |
| seba- | aa | 16:29 |
| kanzure | http://blog.eogn.com/2014/05/29/the-death-of-microfilm/ | 16:29 |
| kanzure | microsd doesn't allow for photolithography | 16:30 |
| kanzure | seems to be completely useless for lithography, even | 16:30 |
| kanzure | "Even new, unexposed microfilm is disappearing. Only a couple of small companies still manufacture microfilm, and they have already notified FamilySearch and their few other remaining customers that they will be shutting down their manufacturing facilities soon." | 16:31 |
| kanzure | 140 lines per mm might be enough to do micron-resolution lithography things http://www.fujifilm.com/products/professional_films/pdf/provia_100f_datasheet.pdf ($77 for 20 sheets on amazon) | 16:38 |
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| heath | ""Three-Dimensional Paper Microfluidic Devices Based on the Principles of Origami" http://rcrooks.cm.utexas.edu/research/resources/Publications/rmc225.pdf | 17:04 |
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| kanzure | heath: take a gander at http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/optics/photolithography/ | 17:09 |
| seba- | kanzure, couldn't you just use optics from a microscope or something similar, take a bigger photo | 17:11 |
| seba- | shine light | 17:11 |
| seba- | and then just concentrate it | 17:11 |
| kanzure | here's one that does 200 lines per mm http://www.fujifilmusa.com/shared/bin/NeopanAcros100.pdf (about $70 for 20 sheets) (larger than the previous film) | 17:11 |
| seba- | i think it would work | 17:11 |
| seba- | hm | 17:11 |
| kanzure | seba-: yes, you could use a projector http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/optics/photolithography/DIY%20fabrication%20of%20microstructures%20by%20projection%20photolithography.pdf | 17:11 |
| seba- | but you would have to use colimated light | 17:12 |
| seba- | so that you don't get penumbria or how it's spelled | 17:12 |
| kanzure | the advantage of using a camera is that you don't need a microscope and you don't need a micromirror array | 17:12 |
| seba- | maybe an UV laser | 17:12 |
| seba- | what | 17:12 |
| seba- | just print | 17:12 |
| seba- | on a laser printer | 17:12 |
| seba- | transparent foil | 17:12 |
| kanzure | laser printer does not resolve finely enough | 17:12 |
| seba- | yeah | 17:12 |
| seba- | but print big | 17:12 |
| seba- | then use UV leds or some shit | 17:13 |
| kanzure | so you still need the condenser optics, or an entire microscope | 17:13 |
| seba- | and project that image | 17:13 |
| seba- | onto a tiny point | 17:13 |
| kanzure | yes | 17:14 |
| seba- | i don't know if optics of a microscope could work | 17:14 |
| seba- | but if it does | 17:14 |
| seba- | that's super cheap | 17:14 |
| seba- | you just buy russian optics | 17:14 |
| kanzure | take a look at the link | 17:14 |
| seba- | those are good and dirty cheap | 17:14 |
| kanzure | which russian optics in particular? | 17:14 |
| kanzure | where | 17:15 |
| seba- | hm search LOMO in cyrillic it's ЛОМО | 17:15 |
| seba- | maybe on ebay.co.uk or ebay.de | 17:15 |
| kanzure | Ленинградское Oптико-Mеханическое Oбъединение ? | 17:15 |
| seba- | yes | 17:16 |
| seba- | used optics | 17:16 |
| seba- | are usually cheap | 17:16 |
| seba- | i've bought a whole microscope | 17:16 |
| kanzure | Вы говорите это кошка язык? | 17:16 |
| seba- | heh i'm from slovenia, i don't really understand very well russian | 17:16 |
| seba- | but some it's understandable to me | 17:16 |
| gradstudentbot | My study reveals that people are awesome at memorizing insecure passwords. | 17:17 |
| seba- | and i've learned to read cyrillic alright now because of ukraine ahahah i had to follow news lol | 17:17 |
| seba- | oh cool link | 17:18 |
| seba- | http://www.ebay.de/itm/030-LOMO-Achr-Objektiv-20X-0-40-Objective-Objectief-/221234221571?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_77&hash=item3382965203 | 17:19 |
| seba- | ok this one is not dirty cheap but ok | 17:19 |
| kanzure | i think 100x is required | 17:19 |
| kanzure | hah i like it, none of the plastic crap around the cylinder | 17:20 |
| seba- | yeah you can get that also for a similar price | 17:20 |
| seba- | yup | 17:20 |
| seba- | russian crap is nice | 17:20 |
| seba- | cheap and good | 17:20 |
| seba- | i hope that they don't do any embargo | 17:20 |
| seba- | fucking US/EU/RU coldwar3 | 17:21 |
| seba- | for 100x i've bought a british one | 17:22 |
| seba- | also ok | 17:22 |
| seba- | kanzure, you can get dirty microscopes usually VERY cheaply | 17:23 |
| seba- | you just open them and clean them lol | 17:23 |
| seba- | http://www.ebay.de/itm/MIKROSKOP-OBJEKTIV-90-x-1-25-LOMO-ZEISS-NEUWERTIG-/271501225855?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_77&hash=item3f36bbef7f | 17:25 |
| seba- | 90x for 49 eur | 17:25 |
| kanzure | huh, azonenberg's paper doesn't actually use a micromirror device | 17:28 |
| kanzure | http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/optics/photolithography/A%20maskless%20photolithographic%20prototyping%20system%20using%20a%20low-cost%20consumer%20projector%20and%20a%20microscope.pdf | 17:28 |
| seba- | but | 17:29 |
| seba- | http://olx.bg/ruski-mikroskop-i48078635 | 17:30 |
| seba- | i've received this for free as a gift with 3 lomo lenses | 17:30 |
| seba- | but i think it was bought for 20 eur lol used of course | 17:30 |
| kanzure | that says two eyepieces.. where's the second one | 17:30 |
| seba- | you change them | 17:31 |
| seba- | unscrew the bottom | 17:31 |
| kanzure | ok | 17:31 |
| seba- | etc. | 17:31 |
| seba- | but i've bought a touret | 17:31 |
| seba- | for like 15 eur from ebay | 17:31 |
| seba- | lol | 17:31 |
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| seba- | it's not a very good microscope, but the optics are | 17:31 |
| seba- | kanzure, ah no, wait you're in the US, maybe then find something american? maybe it will be cheaper, i don't knwo about the customs and all that | 17:34 |
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| kanzure | seba-: well, maybe aldrich can be replaced some day heh | 17:54 |
| seba- | kanzure, what do you mean? | 17:58 |
| kanzure | specialty chemicals and reagents are too expensive if you are doing more than one project etc | 18:00 |
| kanzure | alternative is microfluidic production of "fine chemicals" | 18:00 |
| gradstudentbot | It's contaminated. | 18:01 |
| seba- | kanzure, yes, alfa and applichem are cheaper | 18:01 |
| seba- | btw what sorts of chemicals are you interested in? | 18:01 |
| kanzure | and not all of the vendors will ship to non-lab addresses etc | 18:01 |
| kanzure | well, dna, and the reagents required for dna synthesis | 18:01 |
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| kanzure | but then there's a bunch of chemistry things like ZnO stuff that would be useful to work with.. | 18:02 |
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| seba- | i see | 18:02 |
| seba- | well we could make an exchange of such stuff | 18:03 |
| seba- | sending 1 g via mail is not a problem | 18:03 |
| kanzure | that's not repeatable.. once you leave school, everyone you were mailing to is fucked | 18:04 |
| seba- | what do you mean? | 18:04 |
| kanzure | you mean, you will buy chemicals because you're at a university, and then ship them to other people? | 18:04 |
| kanzure | i'm talking about tiny machines to produce chemicals without shipping hehe | 18:05 |
| kanzure | so far the most complicated chemistry i've seen in microfluidics is dna synthesis | 18:07 |
| kanzure | but i'm sure there have been non-biology related chemical syntheses done | 18:08 |
| seba- | you can get lots of chemicals off ebay and i can also buy most of them anyway hm but anyway usually you don't want to buy stuff you need like <5 g | 18:08 |
| kanzure | here's an example (not dna synthesis) (emulsion production) https://www.ibp.ucla.edu/research/rowat/Publications_files/shah.MatToday.2008.pdf | 18:10 |
| kanzure | heh neat, triple emulsions | 18:10 |
| kanzure | here's one that does micro distillation and multi-step synthesis stuff http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/anie.200904634/abstract?deniedAccessCustomisedMessage=&userIsAuthenticated=false | 18:12 |
| kanzure | "recent advances in microflow photochemistry" http://www.mdpi.com/1420-3049/16/9/7522/pdf | 18:17 |
| seba- | heh | 18:17 |
| seba- | well you can just do organic reactions in ependorf tubes | 18:17 |
| seba- | easier | 18:18 |
| seba- | lol | 18:18 |
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| heath | using backbone again is going to take some getting used to: https://github.com/heath/simple-census-web | 19:26 |
| kanzure | app/lib/ can be replaced by bower things | 19:27 |
| kanzure | so that you don't have to commit third-party dependencies to your git repo | 19:28 |
| kanzure | i also recommend considering browserify for your build task, instead of just coffee, so that you can use normal require() instead of requirejs-style require() https://github.com/heath/simple-census-web/blob/master/app/scripts/main.coffee | 19:30 |
| kanzure | and finally, because i'm a pedantic jerk, i see you have no testing-related task ;) | 19:31 |
| heath | :) | 19:31 |
| kanzure | i think most gulp people are using karma + jasmine + phantomjs for testing, or karmasomething | 19:32 |
| kanzure | karameltester? | 19:32 |
| heath | i want to replace lib/ with something else for sure, i guess i should try the bower-installer package, https://www.npmjs.org/package/bower-installer | 19:33 |
| heath | iirc, you have been using it for awhile or something like it | 19:34 |
| kanzure | i don't think bower-installer is necessary but i may have been using bower wrong | 19:34 |
| kanzure | basically with bower (1) after npm install there is a bower install step, (2) there is a bower*.json file that gets committed, (3) bower_components/ goes into .gitignore, (4) build task checks if dependencies need to be bundled up or not and then bundles them with browserify (but doesn't always do this because otherwise it takes forever to scan and parse a few meg of js/css crap) (for this reason i keep it as a separate browserify-related ... | 19:35 |
| kanzure | ... task) (others choose not to bundle browserify components, and just keep <script> includes on their index.html) | 19:36 |
| kanzure | oops | 19:36 |
| kanzure | *others choose not to bundle bower components using browserify | 19:36 |
| heath | thanks for the tips, i'll look into browserify and see if there's a way for users to not pull in an entire repo with bower | 19:42 |
| heath | ..some time.. some coompany is calling me about clojure work, so i should probably play with that now | 19:43 |
| kanzure | heath: what happened to your web-connected microscope? | 19:46 |
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| heath | it wasn't web connect, it was just running through cheese | 19:52 |
| heath | s/web connect/connected to the web | 19:52 |
| kanzure | oh | 19:52 |
| heath | without context, that could have sounded better to someone else | 19:57 |
| kanzure | streaming microscopy stuff is cool | 19:58 |
| heath | that's actually a nice idea | 19:58 |
| kanzure | irc bot !left 0.02 mm | 19:58 |
| kanzure | the others didn't like it :p | 19:59 |
| heath | k, that sounds fun enough | 19:59 |
| kanzure | paperbot: http://benthamscience.com/journal/index.php?journalID=rpchengsamples/cheng%201-1/Volker%20Hessel.pdf | 20:05 |
| paperbot | XMLSyntaxError: None (file "/srv/ikiwiki/paperbot/modules/papers.py", line 354, in parse_html) | 20:06 |
| kanzure | thought so | 20:06 |
| gene_hacker | oh man I should do that with a petri dish of tardigrades | 20:07 |
| kanzure | paperbot: http://www.nature.com/nchem/journal/v5/n11/full/nchem.1753.html | 20:07 |
| paperbot | http://libgen.org/scimag/get.php?doi=10.1038%2Fnchem.1753 | 20:08 |
| kanzure | "Another striking example is the development of a microfluidic reactor for on-site and on-demand synthesis of positron emission tomography (PET) tracers[28]." | 20:18 |
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| nmz787 | http://diyhpl.us/~nmz787/pdf/Rapid_fabrication_of_on-demand_high-resolution_optical_masks_with_a_CDDVD_pickup_unit.pdf | 20:49 |
| nmz787 | kanzure: ^ | 20:49 |
| nmz787 | kanzure: outputcity's prices aren't as good as a cali place | 20:53 |
| nmz787 | this place i believe kanzure http://www.laserlab.com/ | 20:53 |
| nmz787 | kanzure: http://www.laserlab.com/photoplot.php | 20:53 |
| nmz787 | also that place (outputcity) is several hours away on the coast | 20:54 |
| nmz787 | i've contacted them before, i think last year or earlier | 20:54 |
| kanzure | "Photo plots are made on Fuji HCP-7S film" | 20:54 |
| kanzure | not sure what resolution that film has | 20:56 |
| kanzure | fuji's pdf didn't have that number | 20:57 |
| kanzure | i think the reason why nobody is using whiteside's "take a picture, enlarge on to microfiche" method is that nobody is manufacturing new microfiche | 20:57 |
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| gradstudentbot | Sorry, I can't really talk right now because I'm burried in grant writing. | 20:59 |
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| nmz787 | i'm wondering for a node on a mesh network of android cell phones might what might be the line-of-sight distance? | 21:12 |
| nmz787 | anyone know what's good, or a good tutorial (before I decide to read all these links instead of dna stuff for the rest of the night)... is this good? https://projectmeshnet.org/ | 21:14 |
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| kanzure | nmz787: i think juul is running various meshnet thins | 21:15 |
| kanzure | *things | 21:15 |
| kanzure | nmz787: also, that paper is only showing 100 micron features, and lots of errors or something.. | 21:23 |
| nmz787 | yeah | 21:23 |
| nmz787 | but that's using carbon | 21:23 |
| nmz787 | which simon has suggested before also | 21:23 |
| nmz787 | not using 405 and a compatible UV resin | 21:23 |
| nmz787 | there's a photoresist company here up the street | 21:24 |
| nmz787 | TOK America | 21:24 |
| nmz787 | I talked with their engineers a lot last year, they even did some simulations for me | 21:24 |
| nmz787 | of developments and post-exposure melt/bake profiles | 21:24 |
| nmz787 | they had some resists that would work close or at 405 | 21:26 |
| kanzure | any opinions on the "use photography film negatives as a photomask" idea? | 21:30 |
| nmz787 | even laserlab plotted at crazy high dpi is still only like 10um effective features | 21:31 |
| nmz787 | unless we did reduction | 21:31 |
| nmz787 | ben krasnow said he thinks LCD has less interpixel space than DLP | 21:32 |
| nmz787 | when i mentioned interpixel noise on some DMD photoresist paper i saw | 21:32 |
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| kanzure | 10 micron features are ok i think | 21:36 |
| kanzure | the point is that milli-scale stuff is not micron resolution | 21:37 |
| kanzure | wtf "DLP Discovery 4100 Development Kit" goes for $4k on ebay? | 21:37 |
| kanzure | "Suggested price: US $7999 | 21:39 |
| kanzure | and up" | 21:39 |
| nmz787 | nah laser down the ocular or blu-ray optics are best bet I think | 21:43 |
| nmz787 | that is the closest to 1 micron we can get in this price range, i think | 21:43 |
| nmz787 | otherwise we're never going to stop thinking about it and just try /something/ | 21:43 |
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| nmz787 | and you'll get your web-scope out of it too | 21:44 |
| kanzure | yep | 21:45 |
| nmz787 | i don't think the 405nm laser on the bluray will have a 405nm spot, maybe like 500 or 600 | 21:45 |
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| nmz787 | i think the beam profile will be OK, the working distance (the angle of the light cone) might be a problem for straight sidewall profile (aspect ratio) | 21:46 |
| nmz787 | but then down the ocular has been show to be pretty OK | 21:47 |
| nmz787 | was that the blackboxlabs folks? | 21:47 |
| kanzure | projector plus microscope | 21:47 |
| nmz787 | ah | 21:47 |
| nmz787 | then it must be a paper | 21:47 |
| kanzure | it was that shitty one-page paper that didn't say anything | 21:48 |
| kanzure | and that youtube video with a projector and some mystery glass pointed at a mounted slide | 21:48 |
| nmz787 | i believe that paper has a big brother | 21:48 |
| nmz787 | this isn't it but is good http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/paperbot/High%20resolution,%20low%20cost%20laser%20lithography%20using%20a%20Blu-ray%20optical%20head%20assembly.pdf | 21:55 |
| kanzure | this one? http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/optics/photolithography/A%20maskless%20photolithographic%20prototyping%20system%20using%20a%20low-cost%20consumer%20projector%20and%20a%20microscope.pdf | 21:55 |
| kanzure | or do you mean the single page one | 21:55 |
| nmz787 | no if the one i'm thinking exists it was about shoving a laser down a microscope ocular | 21:56 |
| kanzure | single page one was http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/optics/photolithography/Low%20cost%20UV%20laser%20direct%20write%20photolithography%20system%20for%20rapid%20prototyping%20of%20microsystems.pdf | 21:56 |
| nmz787 | hmm, maybe that was it then, coupled with the last paper i posted, seems like a good way to proceed | 21:58 |
| kanzure | i think the conventional structure of a microscope is absolutely stupid | 21:58 |
| nmz787 | the web scope gets the CNC, and then just mount the bluray optics at an offset of the scope objective | 21:58 |
| kanzure | at least seba-'s weirdo russian microscope was more practical ("here is your soviet viewing tube, fuck shortneck people") | 21:59 |
| nmz787 | and also since we'd get a bi/trinocular scope, we can also try shoving a $50 focusable chinese laser (i think i've found the aliexpress seller) | 21:59 |
| nmz787 | which one was that? | 21:59 |
| kanzure | i'm not convinced that using a binocular or trinocular scope is the right thing to do- what about just mounting optics on our own frame.. | 22:00 |
| nmz787 | i think i'd need some jblake time | 22:00 |
| nmz787 | for a custom frame | 22:00 |
| kanzure | russian socpe is http://olx.bg/ruski-mikroskop-i48078635 | 22:01 |
| kanzure | it's just t-slot or openbeam or makerslide or whatever it's called these days | 22:01 |
| nmz787 | but it would be OK to work off that openlabtools one, or whatever github i posted recently, the raspi scope | 22:01 |
| nmz787 | it's optical design is pretty decent | 22:01 |
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| nmz787 | uses infinity corrected lenses | 22:01 |
| kanzure | it looks like you have to do oil immersion to do anything actually microscopic, so maybe there should be an oil bed.. not sure. | 22:02 |
| nmz787 | which means you can insert filters or beam splitters in the collimated section and not mess with focusing | 22:02 |
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| kanzure | yes.. conventional microscopes look inconvenient to modify. | 22:02 |
| nmz787 | only for 1000X though | 22:02 |
| kanzure | well that's what microscopic is | 22:02 |
| nmz787 | the raspi with a better camera | 22:02 |
| nmz787 | a much better camera | 22:02 |
| nmz787 | something like a gopro | 22:02 |
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| nmz787 | though idk if you can get 120 or 240 fps over USB | 22:03 |
| nmz787 | from a gopro or other even | 22:03 |
| nmz787 | actually i think i already bought the tube lens, and have some infinity objectives | 22:04 |
| nmz787 | LOL @ that scope | 22:05 |
| kanzure | nice, right? | 22:05 |
| nmz787 | the only diff is lack of a mirro near the eyes | 22:05 |
| kanzure | "efficient" | 22:05 |
| gradstudentbot | Yeah, it's definitely impractical and fairly non-elegant at the same time. | 22:05 |
| nmz787 | i agree more with gradstudentbot | 22:05 |
| gradstudentbot | Future work will focus on that. | 22:05 |
| nmz787 | weird | 22:05 |
| gradstudentbot | Well, I can't really talk about it because I'm trying to get it published in Science or Nature. | 22:07 |
| nmz787 | so you're against open-source for some reason? what about arxiv? | 22:08 |
| kanzure | he's just trying to survive in a grad student world | 22:09 |
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| nmz787 | how can i reverse engineer my windows lenovo brightness control? | 22:22 |
| nmz787 | it is too bright for me at night | 22:23 |
| nmz787 | and no longer lets me turn off the screen with the keyboard | 22:23 |
| nmz787 | via the brightness buttons | 22:23 |
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| kanzure | what would be some reasonable test samples to simulate with a ray tracer for microscopy? | 22:40 |
| kanzure | obviously a cell is hard to do accurately and the results wont match reality even if the physics are right | 22:40 |
| kanzure | small bubbles of water? | 22:40 |
| kanzure | calibration slides? | 22:41 |
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| delinquentme | kanzure, prisms | 22:47 |
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| delinquentme | so thats kinda like water droplets | 22:48 |
| kanzure | nah, i'm sure povray can do water spheres, i think i've seen it do those before | 22:48 |
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| nmz787 | gauge blocks? | 22:50 |
| nmz787 | gage blocks | 22:50 |
| kanzure | how about 1951 USAF: https://www.google.com/search?q=1951+USAF&num=100&safe=off | 22:51 |
| gradstudentbot | My code works. I have no idea why... | 22:51 |
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| archels | nmz787: get f.lux | 22:53 |
| archels | kanzure, for what it's worth, I used to be able to get down to about 6 mil trace width etching 35 um copper PCBs | 22:55 |
| kanzure | 35 microns was your feature size or your pcb size? | 22:55 |
| archels | the thickness of the copper layer on the PCB substrate | 22:56 |
| kanzure | oh :\ | 22:56 |
| kanzure | still, useful data point | 22:56 |
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| nmz787 | kanzure: it might be fine to just use existing microscopes | 23:17 |
| nmz787 | that way poor people in india can use the old ones they already have and don't use enough | 23:18 |
| nmz787 | idk | 23:18 |
| nmz787 | is a machine shop more accesible than a shipment from China? | 23:18 |
| nmz787 | is the t-slot stuff as accessbile, or would it also be coming from China/U.S? | 23:19 |
| nmz787 | and then they still have to mess with the basic fine optics | 23:19 |
| nmz787 | which is fine to encourage understanding | 23:20 |
| nmz787 | it might be simple enough to use machined metal rather than t-slot stuff | 23:21 |
| nmz787 | i was thinking of some gears on the microscope control knobs, which would attach to stepper motors via another gear | 23:22 |
| nmz787 | that'd increase the backlash I guess | 23:22 |
| kanzure | uh... no. we're using linear screw actuation. | 23:28 |
| kanzure | no way we're interfacing with silly knobs | 23:28 |
| kanzure | pull those levers! turn those knobs! do science! | 23:30 |
| * night does science with knobs | 23:31 | |
| nmz787 | the knobs are there though | 23:42 |
| nmz787 | the stage is already there | 23:42 |
| nmz787 | the focus adjustment is already friggin oiled | 23:42 |
| nmz787 | going custom all the way would be much better if you wanted to do a custom stage | 23:42 |
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| --- Log closed Mon Jun 09 00:00:29 2014 | ||
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