2014-06-10.log

--- Log opened Tue Jun 10 00:00:30 2014
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||0_-_0||paperbot http://www.nature.com/nsmb/journal/v21/n6/full/nsmb.2820.html?WT.ec_id=NSMB-20140600:02
paperbothttp://libgen.org/scimag/get.php?doi=10.1038%2Fnsmb.282000:02
||0_-_0||paperbot http://www.nature.com/nmeth/journal/v11/n6/full/nmeth.2934.html?WT.ec_id=NMETH-20140600:04
paperbothttp://libgen.org/scimag/get.php?doi=10.1038%2Fnmeth.293400:04
||0_-_0||paperbot <3 <3 <300:04
gradstudentbotOkay, someone really needs to do the lab dishes.00:04
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nmz787that zeiss is pretty average for a multi-light source and trinocular (possibly fluorescense) scope00:35
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seba-[14:02] <horsefiend> so i went home, alone, with my wine and maaged to get meth anyway, I used 200mg of it IV and then threw up blood... so i am thinking also that perhaps i am sufffering from something which IV aspirin may be favourable for...05:06
seba-lol05:06
nshloli don't always practice adultery, but when i do, it's with my bloodstream05:07
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seba-full quote: http://pastebin.com/5NhbP39S05:14
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caternlol06:01
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nmz787_i I seem to be experiencing a imported function fails to call in exception where the interpreter crashes/closes10:01
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kanzurei am not sure if grammar10:06
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kanzureare you talking about an ImportError?10:07
dingoan exception occured while handling an exception10:07
kanzurehttps://github.com/docker/libswarm10:07
kanzure"Simulate your entire service topology in a single process"10:07
kanzurean open source embedded microprocessor core https://github.com/atgreen/moxiedev http://www.moxielogic.org/wiki http://www.moxielogic.org/blog10:13
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nmz787_ihmm idk10:16
nmz787_ii'm not reproducing an error in demo10:16
archels_.title http://www.nytimes.com/2014/06/10/health/a-chilling-medical-trial.html10:21
yoleauxarchels_: Sorry: that command is a web-service, but its response was too long.10:21
archels_nothing new, but good that this is going mainstream10:21
archels_probably also good news for the cryo crowd10:21
archels_(bearing in mind that Alcor whistleblower blog or whatever it was)10:22
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kanzuregene_hacker: has matt encountered or made a graph grammar for optical train design?10:36
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gene_hackerno10:46
gene_hackerthere are expert systems that will beat almost any human at optical system design though10:46
gene_hackerwhy are you making all your optics yourself btw?10:46
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kanzuregene_hacker: because having a model is a good thing, it lets you simulate before building10:56
gene_hackerwhy not use a microscope whose properties you know?10:56
kanzurebut you don't know- nobody has detailed data about "hey, we're projecting LEDs through microscopes and here's how the images turn out"10:59
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kanzure.title https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Og9M7xIhW0011:33
yoleauxVirtual Atomic Force Microscope using Interactive MD with LAMMPS and VMD11:33
kanzurecc eudoxia11:33
kanzuregene_hacker: however, your idea is probably better.. looks like nobody has done an accurate simulation of a microscope ever. wtf?11:35
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eudoxiakanzure: you know me too well11:43
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kanzurewin 312:03
kanzurelkdfjdsafja;12:03
gradstudentbotThis laproscopic camera is so easy to use.12:05
kanzure.title http://hydracarina.org/91012:33
yoleauxHowto mount an infinity corrected microscope objective on a camera12:33
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kanzure.title http://www.krebsmicro.com/obj_bellows/index.html12:34
yoleauxkanzure: Sorry, that command (.title) crashed.12:34
kanzure"Microscope Objectives on Camera Bellows"12:34
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nmz787_ihmm13:12
nmz787_icad but no prices http://www.velmex.com/bislide/motor_bislide.html13:12
nmz787_ikanzure: i've come across that hydracarina link before, is a good ref, good reminder of it!13:13
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nmz787_iomg  finally figured out the hanging pipe crap13:16
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nmz787_iif you use popen with pythonw.exe, you have to provide a fd for the stdin arg to popen... also in this case, you can't try doing sys.__stderr__.write(string) because it will cause an error (which you won't be able to see unless you're redirecting stderr in this process to a GUI textbox)13:18
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-!- Topic for ##hplusroadmap: biohacking, nootropics, transhumanism, open hardware | sponsored by george church and the NRA, banned by the Federal Death Administration (4 times) | this channel is LOGGED: http://gnusha.org/logs | http://diyhpl.us/wiki | not intentionally unrepeatable13:32
-!- Topic set by kanzure [~kanzure@131.252.130.248] [Fri Jun 6 17:48:33 2014]13:32
[Users ##hplusroadmap]13:32
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dingogood on you13:33
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justanotheruserwelcome back to the mainnet13:33
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kanzuredid i die13:49
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archels_paperbot: http://www.nrcresearchpress.com/doi/pdf/10.1139/y94-08013:57
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paperbothttp://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/paperbot/358920edfa35f8bdfecf8f41d0903c5e.txt13:57
archels_yeah, welcome to hell. there's no free paper access here either13:58
justanotheruserarchels_: please hold14:02
justanotheruserhmm, I'm signed in for http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/7954086, but I can't find a download link14:05
archels_well... it's in a 1994 issue of the Canadian Journal of Physiology and Pharmacology14:06
archels_I guess it was a long shot14:06
archels_thanks for trying though14:06
justanotheruseryeah, sorry I couldn't get it14:06
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delinquentmepaperbot, http://www.nature.com/ncomms/2014/140610/ncomms5082/full/ncomms5082.html14:20
paperbothttp://libgen.org/scimag/get.php?doi=10.1038%2Fncomms508214:20
delinquentmekanzure, paper isn't actually fetching novel papers right now right?14:22
delinquentme"novel papers" = papers which aren't already on libgen14:22
kanzureif it's on libgen, i think it skips it14:23
gradstudentbotMy study reveals that people are awesome at memorizing insecure passwords.14:24
delinquentmekk, so that paper isn't on libgen and Mr. Paper failed to get it from nature14:24
delinquentmeproblem?14:24
kanzureyes it most likely doesn't have the pdf14:25
kanzure.title http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S037851730701011314:25
yoleauxSize analysis of submicron particles by laser diffractometry—90% of the published measurements are false14:25
kanzure(haha, people can't use microscopes)14:25
kanzureor diffractometers14:25
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delinquentmekanzure, libgen clearly does not.  So paperbot isn't fetching them via shibboleth ?14:32
delinquentme" If libgen doesn't have the paper , why isn't paperbot fetching it an uploading it to libgen ? "14:32
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kanzurepaperbot does not have access to shibboleth14:34
kanzureas far as i know14:34
kanzuredid someone add that?14:34
delinquentmeI thought that was how it was downloading papers14:35
delinquentmeI thought he downloaded papers from  nature?14:36
kanzureshibboleth is not nature14:36
delinquentme... no shit14:36
kanzureso again, paperbot does not have access to shibboleth14:37
delinquentmeWhy isn't it downloading the papers if its not on libgen?14:38
kanzureprobably because it doesn't have access, like any other time it can't download something14:38
delinquentmeis this a new thing that has gone wrong ? or has it not had access to nature?14:39
kanzurenature.com is not a single access system14:39
kanzurenobody has /full/ access14:39
delinquentmeso paperbot has some access to nature but not this journal14:45
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delinquentme?14:45
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kanzurewho knows- sometimes the restrictions are per paper, per journal, per "year published", per "year accepted", per "number of diagrams"...14:46
delinquentmeand this is just per whoevers access we're using at the time14:49
delinquentmeyou and nmz are jumping into the lasercutter game again?14:50
delinquentmethis is dumb that I cant get this paper instantly =/14:50
kanzurei forget if it's a cutter or not14:51
kanzureit points light at things, does that help?14:51
delinquentmeablation ?14:51
kanzurewhat is it called when you point it at a photoresist.. absorption?14:51
delinquentmeI want bioreactors which keep cells alive and make blood14:51
delinquentmeyeah probs14:52
delinquentmeThis whole ' young blood ' just seems a really convincing abstraction for youthfulness in my mind.14:52
gradstudentbotI am sponsored by Thermo Fisher.14:54
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heathwhat do you call someone who's name is an emoticon? pipe pipe zero underscore dash underscore zero pipe pipe? ppzuduzpp?15:05
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FourFireheath, it's not a verbal name15:18
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kanzureoh yeah, maybe i should convert mcad to python-brlcad https://github.com/elmom/MCAD15:48
kanzuredpk: i think the "fix zotero's translators-scrapers to make them not require gecko or zotero" project is the one i'm most interested in15:59
kanzuredpk: so that i can stop using zotero, and also get the benefit of zotero's community focusing on scrapers for me16:00
dpkokay, that was more or less my plan anyway16:00
kanzureunfortunately this means that it can't be pure python, which is a shame..16:00
dpki did some preliminary investigation and discovered that JavaScript is a load of cocks, but otherwise the plan is good16:01
kanzurehave you written js things before?16:01
dpkjust needs a good embeddable-into-both-paperbot-and-zotero scraping framework behind it16:01
dpkyeah16:01
kanzurei would have expected you to know already that js sucks?16:01
dpkmy consistent experience has been that JavaScript is a load of cocks, indeed16:02
kanzurewell, paperbot can be thrown away and replaced with a js version16:02
kanzurethe actual irc bot integration is not important to me.. i mean that is simple to hack up later.16:02
dpkbut it's always good to rediscover things in new ways, to help improve understanding of them16:02
dpkin this case i came to a new way of understanding the load-of-cocksiness of JavaScript16:02
kanzurei haven't thought strongly about how i would do the zotero integration16:03
kanzureone way is that you could have commonjs stuff, and just require() a vendorized dependency of scrapers16:03
kanzureanother way is that you could have a tool that takes the nodejs/browserify-compatible scrapers and dumps them into a format that zotero is capable of using16:04
dpkwell i assume that if it runs in the browser, it can run in Zotero?16:04
kanzurewell, no, zotero itself has its own api16:04
dpkin that case i'd be inclined to just browserify the whole thing16:04
dpkoh, right16:04
kanzurehttps://github.com/zotero/translators16:04
dpkoh, that one16:04
dpki assumed it just ran on top of the browser's JS libraries16:05
kanzurenah it uses this global called Zotero16:05
kanzurehttps://github.com/zotero/translators/blob/master/American%20Institute%20of%20Aeronautics%20and%20Astronautics.js16:05
kanzureand it has these doWeb, detectWeb, scrape functions16:05
dpkokay, hmm16:06
dpki think the first option is probably the better one then16:07
dpkor specify some basic HTTP scraping interface which they can provide a shim for16:07
gradstudentbotThe smell of e.coli is so very rewarding.16:07
dpkwhere does gradstudentbot get these things from? heh16:07
gradstudentbotArgh, what do you mean you don't accept LaTeX submissions??16:07
dpkis it just a database of lines to regurgitate a la fortune?16:08
kanzureyep, but he's surprisingly sentient16:08
kanzureso, they are not going to be willing to send their scraping work over http to some other server16:09
kanzurethe scrapers/parsers should definitely be local16:09
dpkright, i'm not proposing that16:09
dpki mean 'interface' in the sense of 'just write a class/module that has these methods'16:09
kanzurezotero/translation-server has an http server where you submit a json request and get back a json response16:10
kanzurethe json response is based on the bibliographic data that the scraper returns16:10
dpk... i see16:10
kanzurei had to hack it to get it to return the pdf url to paperbot,16:11
gradstudentbotProtip: the lab's attic hasn't been used since 1966. Pretty nice.16:11
kanzurehttps://github.com/kanzure/translation-server/commit/4d35648672c1ff2d2b6c61308ac7fcb684d6344816:11
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kanzurehttps://github.com/kanzure/translation-server/blob/4d35648672c1ff2d2b6c61308ac7fcb684d63448/src/server_translation.js16:12
kanzuresuch a terrible system16:12
kanzureoh huh i didn't know about /refresh16:12
dpkthe new library of scrapers would be embedded in translation-server, then?16:14
kanzuretranslation-server accesses the zotero translators through some environment variable containing a path16:15
kanzureheh16:15
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kanzuretranslation-server is totally irrelevant to me, i'm only using it because it's a quick way to be using gecko/xulrunner16:16
kanzureto be using xulrunner/zotero, i mean16:16
chris_99anyone know can freecad/brlcad work with autocad files16:16
dpki see16:16
kanzureit actually doesn't work for all of the zotero translators because some of the translators use frames and link navigation, which xulrunner doesn't support(??) according to simonster16:16
kanzureso some of the translators are failing16:16
kanzurechris_99: dxf16:16
kanzurechris_99: .step .iges are also exportable from autocad, which both freecad (opencascade) and brlcad are able to work with16:17
chris_99aha neat16:17
kanzuredpk, so maybe you're right, standard interface, every zotero translator is just a thin wrapper that someone writes, calls the appropriate sanely-architected scraper16:19
kanzuredpk: but then those sanely-architected scrapers need to be packaged into zotero and available16:19
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* dpk nkds16:19
dpk*nods16:19
kanzurei wonder how js imports work in xul-related js, is it just require()16:20
kanzurehttps://github.com/firebug/firebug/blob/master/extension/modules/require.js16:21
kanzurehttps://github.com/firebug/firebug/blob/master/extension/modules/mini-require.js16:21
kanzurebut that's requirejs gah16:21
dpkyeah, fuck requirejs16:22
dpknot doing that16:22
dpkwell, maybe if there's literally no other option16:23
kanzurelooks like require() is baked in these days16:24
kanzureok, so it can be a git submodule in zotero/translators.git that references something else that assembles/caches/compiles/dumps the saner scrapers16:25
kanzureeach translator in zotero/translators.git can just be a thin wrapper that uses require("./sanestuff/whatever.js") and calls those functions16:25
dpkyeah16:25
kanzureand those would probably be browserify bundle outputs16:28
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kanzuredpk: this was my streaming parser attempt https://github.com/kanzure/papermonk-downloader-plosone16:36
dpkhmm, i didn't see that, only the main papermonk repo16:37
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kanzurei think i have my pipes fucked up =)16:38
dpki am going to sleep now. i will investigate the Zotero/node thing tomorrow morning and hopefully have a solid plan by the time you show up in (my time) the afternoon16:38
kanzureokie dokie16:39
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delinquentmekanzure, where was it that you said had solid internet infrastructure, high quality research + cheap living?16:44
delinquentmechina right?16:44
delinquentmeever thought about living there?16:44
kanzurei'm not opposed to it, but i never put a lot of thought into it16:45
delinquentmeI really want to find applications at the junction of simple manufactured objects + programming + electronics and version control16:46
gnushahttps://secure.diyhpl.us/cgit/diyhpluswiki/commit/?id=9bd2883f Bryan Bishop: move diybio faq file >> http://diyhpl.us/diyhpluswiki/diybio/faq/software/16:52
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heathdelinquentme: ukraine?17:27
delinquentmeheath, Im guessing the political stuff doesnt help17:28
heathfar cheaper living and internet infrastructure than what i have17:28
kanzureoh yeah, for larger objects you can just blast sound at them to separate them: http://www.elmat.lth.se/fileadmin/user_upload/Publications/04_Analyst_Petersson.pdf17:42
kanzureugh but did they have to call it "acoustophoresis"?17:44
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gnushahttps://secure.diyhpl.us/cgit/diyhpluswiki/commit/?id=f1b63a7b Bryan Bishop: various microfluidic designs for diybio >> http://diyhpl.us/diyhpluswiki/diybio/microfluidics/17:55
kanzureyashgaroth: http://diyhpl.us/wiki/diybio/microfluidics/17:57
kanzureyashgaroth: what obvious and important equipment am i forgetting about?17:57
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yashgarothlemme eat dinner first18:13
yashgarothok well I'm not sure what techniques can be used in microfluidics, but let's see...you surely will not be able to pack traditional chromatography resins microfluidically, but monoliths would mostly solve that18:29
yashgarothhow big are the channels typically?18:29
kanzurelet's say we're aiming for between 10-100 microns (inclusive)18:30
kanzureand the other dimension can be up to multiple millimeters or centimeters if really necessary18:30
yashgarothyeah you'd be fitting in traditional beads in single file with those dimensions18:31
kanzurei think you can easily purchase microbeads 1-5 micron diameter18:31
seba-lol18:31
kanzureor make them18:31
kanzureemulsions + curing or something18:31
kanzurechromatography columns require high pressure that i'm not sure would be compatible with these chips. not sure.18:32
yashgarothehhhh high pressure chromatography does, but it depends what you want to do18:32
yashgarothif it's just 'stick DNA to this under condition X and elute under condition Y', you don't need pressure18:33
kanzureantibody purification would be nice18:33
gradstudentbotI think my PI hates me.18:33
yashgarothpurification of antibody, or by antibody?18:33
kanzureof antibody18:33
yashgarothoh yeah you can do that; high pressure stuff is only for separating out things with a high resolution...purification you don't need pressure18:34
yashgarothstick recombinant Protein A to/in your channel somehow, run crude stuff over it, wash, knock it off with another buffer18:35
delinquentmeyashgaroth, do you have chromatography columns for sale OOC?18:35
kanzurecould probably get that protein stuck to microbeads/spheres if not the channel18:35
yashgarothI may, what you lookin' for bruv?18:35
delinquentmeOr have the capability to get heparin sepharose 4B at price reductions ?18:35
delinquentmeyashgaroth, a 16/20 GE column18:36
yashgarothheh I used to have a bunch of heparin sepharose18:36
yashgarothXK column?18:36
delinquentmeyeah. http://www.ebay.com/itm/Pharmacia-Biotech-XK-16-20-chromatography-Column-Excellent-GE-Amersham-/321410626909?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item4ad590f55d18:36
delinquentmeyashgaroth, !!!!!!18:36
delinquentmedamnit hahah18:36
delinquentmeI'd gladly pay you for some if its under market value :D18:37
yashgarothit won't be, buy it off ebay, that's a good price18:37
delinquentmeah alright. thanks anyhoo18:37
yashgarothyou think I can buy them from GE for less than that? because laffo18:37
kanzuredingo: were you GE or GM?18:38
yashgarothdelinquentme I'm not sure how fully you appreciate that biotech stuff is absurdly expensive18:39
delinquentmeyashgaroth, I'm getting hints of it.  The prices of the fibronectin I was gonna purify are obscene.18:40
yashgarothI thought you was purifying your own fibronectin out of corpses18:40
delinquentmepiggie blood18:41
yashgarothor whatever18:41
delinquentmeI was also looking for human femurs for other reasons though18:41
yashgarothyeah they're good to have around18:41
delinquentmeyeah. Could make for a decent bioreactor18:41
yashgarothwell anyway you're gonna need more than a single heparin purification, lotta shit in blood binds heparin18:42
delinquentmeI was thinking decellularizing the vasculature and then using that piping system to distribute haematopoetic stem cells18:42
yashgarothuh huh18:42
delinquentmeyeah I've got the protocol ... just no paying clients18:42
yashgarothyou want someone to pay you to dissolve their blood vessels?18:43
delinquentmesorry nah, two separate projects. One was " people who would buy fibronectin "18:43
delinquentmethe other is " how to get osteoblasts / HSCs to maintain + product blood "18:44
yashgarothtry high-pressure sales techniques, like stab them and then say 'would you like to buy my miracle wound healing powder?'18:45
yashgarothif they say no you can still take their money!18:45
yashgarothanyway kanzure there's also tangential flow filtration, which is awesome, but again adapting it to micro scale would be a challenge18:48
gnushahttps://secure.diyhpl.us/cgit/diyhpluswiki/commit/?id=4d334d80 Bryan Bishop: brief mention of tangential flow filtration >> http://diyhpl.us/diyhpluswiki/diybio/microfluidics/18:48
yashgarothassuming you want cells producing tiny amounts of antibody, you can keep them in a chamber, and then flow that with some back-pressure and push antibodies through the membrane while keeping the cells in one place18:48
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kanzureoh, keeping the cells on-chip makes sense, i was also thinking of just loading up whatever liquid from some other process18:49
kanzureon-chip cell culture makes more sense though18:49
yashgarothI assumed that's what you were going for, since you'd be making tiny amounts of antibody18:49
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yashgarotheither way, tangential flow/ultrafiltration is the biggest thing to happen in purification since...well, a while18:50
kanzureno idea if it would be tiny or not- add in some parallelism and suddenly you have large cultures producing antibodies18:50
yashgarothbut then why microfluidicize it18:50
kanzurethe parts that need to be microsized are the parts that cost an annoying amount18:51
kanzurefor doing normal biology lab things18:51
kanzureinstead of paying $500 per pcr machine you could just print them out18:52
yashgarothPCR is an exception because you're regularly working with picograms18:52
kanzuresonoporation can also work on a chip18:52
kanzureseparation stuff can work18:52
yashgarothwell I'd focus mainly on DNA then18:53
yashgarothtangential flow is nice for that, you can separate decently-sized strands away from dNTPs, buffer salts etc18:54
seba-why would a PCR machine cost $50018:54
seba-lol18:54
dingokanzure: GM18:54
kanzureseba-: yeah it's stupid isn't it? they actually go for $20k18:54
kanzuredingo: damn18:54
seba-kanzure, a PCR machine should be around $15018:54
seba-if you make it at home18:55
kanzureyou can make one for <$1018:55
seba-yeah18:55
seba-with various baths18:55
seba-lol18:55
kanzurenot even18:55
kanzurethe lightbulb method doesn't require multiple baths18:55
seba-ok18:55
seba-i meant $150 for a proper aluminium block/peltier18:55
kanzureproper18:55
kanzurethere's all sorts of other equipment that is expensive in a lab that you could build on a flat surface instead18:56
seba-like18:56
kanzurehttp://diyhpl.us/wiki/diybio/microfluidics/18:56
kanzurehttp://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/microfluidics/18:57
kanzureoh i forgot cell sorting18:58
kanzurethat falls under separation though18:58
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kanzurehrm, so the really interesting stuff only happens when you can do dna sequencing and synthesis19:01
kanzure"Utau is known mostly as being a free clone of the much more popular and mature Vocaloid software"19:08
kanzurefor comparison,19:09
kanzurevocaloid: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_JGaQ3g8WU419:09
kanzureutau: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nCqy27QrqZA19:09
gradstudentbotI don't have enough data to form a hypothesis.19:12
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kanzurei gave you *two* samples, isn't that enough19:20
seba-http://phys.org/news95869196.html19:29
kanzure.title19:29
yoleauxResearchers Use Smallest Pipette to Reveal Freezing 'Dance' of Nanoscale Drops19:29
seba-look how big it is19:29
kanzuremaking tiny tips is hard19:30
kanzurejust ask the afm users19:30
kanzurewell, annoying, not really hard19:30
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nmz787ok hi20:13
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gene_hackerby doing interesting stuff with DNA synthesis and sequencing do you mean making an ultra-parallel computer for cracking crypto/mining bit coin?20:48
kanzuregene_hacker: microelectronics would be better at mining bitcoin, http://diyhpl.us/wiki/homecmos/bitcoin/20:49
kanzuredna synthesis is too slow for bitcoin mining20:50
gene_hackerprobably, but you can still use them to crack crypto20:51
kanzurevarious SAT problems i guess, yeah20:51
gene_hackerDNA computers are supposed to have some nice scaling laws two20:51
kanzurereason i mentioned dna synthesis "to do anything interesting" is biology reasons20:53
kanzureonce you can do dna synthesis you can inject dna into cells and get whatever wacky proteins, antibodies, or whatever you please20:53
gene_hackerbut if you convince the bitcoin people that DNA synthesis and sequence is worth it...20:55
kanzurei think we could convince them that asic/microelectronics fabrication is worth it20:56
kanzurethere's some math i need to figure out to prove that it's cost effective20:56
kanzurecompared to doing an asic batch run at MOSIS or some other wafer fab20:56
kanzuremicroelectronics fabrication is practically the same method as microfluidics, if you are using contact lithography (which is fine for 1-100 micron features)20:57
kanzurei mean, if you build a mask via photolithography, which you then use to stamp a wafer or w/e20:57
kanzure(or you can possibly laser cut a wafer directly if you cared a lot..)20:57
gene_hackermicroelectronics fabrication is quite different than microfluidics fabrication20:58
gene_hackermicrofluidics tend to be a lot bigger than most things on a microchip20:58
kanzureyou don't need nanometer features for microelectronics20:58
kanzurefirst few microchips were using 200 micron transistors20:58
kanzure(1960s)20:59
kanzurephotomask chemistry might be different, but once you have something the right size (existing mask?) you have more options21:02
nmz787gene_hacker: well there /are/ jumping genes, so i presume eventually we'll be able to edit DNA with DNA programmed stuff21:02
kanzure"eventually" is "not in the next 5 years"21:02
gene_hackeryou don't need nanometer feature resolution, but it helps21:03
nmz787gene_hacker: you need the DNA synthesis first though to optimize all the biological 'logic gate' precedent papers that are around21:03
nmz787such that they work when linked into massive systems21:03
kanzureif you have dna synthesis then you can just build proteins/antibodies which are going to be useful and valuable anyway21:03
nmz787of which could be self-editing programs/logic-functions21:03
gene_hackerwell logic gates are one way to do it, but there are better ways of solving problems with DNA21:03
nmz787well whatever, there's some operation you want to do that's probably recursive or something21:04
nmz787so you need to verify the base function first, and that process is really slow right now21:05
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kanzureyou killed him21:06
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kanzurefenn: summon21:08
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fennmoooooo...21:32
kanzurefenn: reasons not to use belts?21:34
kanzureor am i full of shit21:34
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fennnot for micron resolution; the belts arent precise enough21:35
fennmaybe if you had a linear optical encoder (glass rule)21:35
kanzurenmz787 is trying to convince me about cannibalizing an existing commodity microscope21:36
kanzureinstead of building our own stuff, stages, etc.21:36
fennthat sounds easier than building everything21:36
kanzuree.g., place gear on microscope knob, belt, stepper to control21:36
kanzurewell, i don't want this to be dumpster diving and repurposing21:36
fennare there no standard microscope designs?21:37
nmz787fenn: how about a gear to gear from the coaxial stage knob on most any microscope to a geared stepper motor that is microstepping (just cause the microcontroller can) (28byj-48 stepper)21:37
kanzurethere's "openlabtools" that you were complaining about, http://openlabtools.eng.cam.ac.uk/Instruments/Microscope/images/microscope.png21:37
kanzureor maybe that was me that was complaining21:37
fennnmz787: i don't like gears for motion control.. introduces backlash for no good reason, and they're noisy21:37
kanzurenah we can have it play hatsune miku songs when it's stepping21:38
nmz787yeah, but what's a better way?21:38
nmz787i was thinking a one-time calibration21:38
fennwell since this is optical you might be fine with gears and a spring21:38
nmz787go to bottom-left (home) then microstep all the way to the right, then go home, then microstepp all the way to the top.... slowly enough to get images of each microstep21:38
nmz787and also maybe the backlash at each location21:39
kanzureone of the hypothetical advantages of not using an existing microscope that i was contemplating is that you get to make whatever frame you need21:39
kanzurewith as much clearance as you want21:39
fennimages of what?21:39
kanzure(none of that weird curvy neck shit. i don't trust those scopes.)21:39
nmz787then either try using that to calibrate, or use it to get good averages for correction factors21:39
nmz787images of a laser printed grid reticle21:40
nmz787laser printers can do something like 20 or 50 micron lines21:40
kanzureso, how much would it cost to buy both the gears/belts and the threaded rod/washers/screws21:40
nmz787seems more accesible than a shelf-bought grid21:40
fennuh, don't use a laser printer as your reference measurement21:40
kanzurethere's cheap slides that provide micrometer calibration for microscopes21:41
nmz787i didn't find any that were the right size and design for cheap21:41
kanzurehttp://www.amazon.com/AmScope-MR400-Micrometer-Calibration-Microscopes/dp/B005KVGAAS21:42
fennyou could use a reject silicon wafer :P21:42
nmz787its really annoying that I can't even tell if the ebay scopes have infinity objectives on them21:42
kanzureit's based on tube length21:42
nmz787silicon doesn't have a grid on it though21:42
kanzurethe 270mm tubes or something are the infinity corrected ones. and presumably the objectives say whether or not they are for that tube size.21:42
nmz787i measured a lot of laser printed lines a while ago when i made a test lithography mask on transparency paper21:43
nmz787film21:43
kanzureerm, *those tubes are the ones that fit infinity corrected objectives21:43
nmz787it was pretty decent21:43
fenna reject wafer would have a grid of chips on it21:43
kanzureor you can get the $30 slide i just linked to21:43
nmz787yeah but you don't know the dimensions21:43
fennthe slide doesn't cover the whole range of motion21:43
fenn(or does it?)21:43
kanzure"1mm Total Length Subdivided into 100 Divisions, Each Division is 0.01mm Across"21:44
kanzure"Just in case you can't fucking divide"21:44
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fennlet me get out my atm machine card21:44
nmz787No I guess not21:45
kanzurehttp://www.pyser-sgi.com/graticules/stage-micrometers-calibration-scales-grids/stage-micrometers-grids-s-series/s28-stage-counting-grid-0-01mm-squares-detail21:45
gradstudentbotIf I write this paper, then maybe I can use that as my thesis?21:45
kanzure"0.01mm grid / 0.2 x 0.2mm overall"21:45
kanzurehrm21:46
nmz787with 1 to 10 micron features that is still a lot of space21:46
kanzurehuh, what about this one?21:46
kanzurehttp://www.pyser-sgi.com/graticules/stage-micrometers-calibration-scales-grids/stage-micrometers-grids-s-series/s7-england-finder-slide-detail21:46
gradstudentbotI'll need to pull an all-nighter.21:46
nmz787problem might be with breaking out the lines to microtubes21:46
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nmz787but then again, you could go into open-loop in those regions21:47
fennis this some magic eye thing21:47
kanzureno i think they just wrote a bunch of numbers in each cell because ??21:47
kanzureit's curious that most micrometer slides are only for a small mm^2 region21:47
fennnumbers would make a lot more sense21:48
fennthey probably just expose photographic emulsion directly on the slide through a microscope21:48
kanzure"if you can't see all the detail at once, there's no point"21:48
kanzureyeah, but you could just move the slide and expose again21:48
fennbut then you have to ensure that each sub-grid is precisely aligned21:48
fennbefore you know it you are back at the micron laser plotter21:49
kanzurei shouldn't pussy out by buying both sets of actuators (gears/belts and screws)21:49
nmz787that's called a stepper21:49
nmz787a wafer stepper21:49
kanzureyes i know what a stepper is21:49
kanzurewtf21:49
fennsilicon chips don't have to be precisely aligned to each other21:49
fennmaking precise things is easy; making accurate things is easy; making precise and accurate things is hard21:50
nmz787they still use interferometers on the axes21:50
nmz787kanzure: want to start off the night by buying both of those?21:50
nmz787the latter seems like it would be computationally more work21:51
fenngears belts and screws is three things21:51
nmz787to track21:51
kanzureno prices on the page21:51
nmz787yeah21:51
kanzureso no21:51
kanzurei think we should separate the project into two parts:21:51
kanzure(1) the machine we want to build21:52
kanzure(2) laser diode, lcd projector, dmd projector lithography things through whatever microscopes you already have21:52
nmz787I think that openlabstools had a FOV calculator21:52
nmz787there's also all the software though too21:53
nmz787soft/firm21:53
kanzure#2 would probably mean "buy some photoresist" and maybe a way to mount something21:53
nmz787#2 still needs a reticle21:53
kanzurethe full-slide grid? or partial-slide grid21:54
kanzurethat amazon one looked ok for basic calibration21:54
nmz787the amazon one would prove the concept i think, and maybe draw others into that part of the project21:55
kanzurewhat others21:55
kanzurefenn: what material did you think the frame should be made out of?21:56
gradstudentbotCan I take a nap yet?21:56
nmz787"Casio EX-ZR100"21:56
nmz787up to 1000FPS21:56
nmz787but most likely not over USB21:56
fennthe same material as everything else, but preferably cast iron21:56
fennthat's the benefit of using a premade microscope21:57
fennvibration may not matter in practice though, i have no idea21:58
kanzurenmz787: er, why? amazon does not list this as a linux-compatible camera, so they probably don't think it's important, and they probably didn't check streaming capability21:58
kanzureand it has an lcd hah21:58
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nmz787oh cool21:59
nmz787http://www.raspberrypi.org/new-camera-mode-released/21:59
nmz78790 FPS21:59
fennthe casio is not a webcam and definitely doesn't stream at 1000fps21:59
fennit is a neat toy tho21:59
kanzurethe openlabtools microscope's frame just seems much easier to work with than a curvy-neck microscope,21:59
kanzurehttp://openlabtools.eng.cam.ac.uk/Instruments/Microscope/images/microscope.png21:59
kanzurelook at all that free space to put crap21:59
gradstudentbotAnyone else think pol II looks like a butt?22:00
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fennthose rod ways are a joke22:01
fennwhy build a t-slot frame and then suspend two toothpicks from pieces of plastic22:01
kanzurethey had "10 people working on this for 10 weeks"22:02
fennseriously what is it with people and t-slot cubes22:02
kanzureso i am gonna go ahead and assume they are brain damaged22:02
fenni hope it works better than a bent paperclip and a drop of water22:02
kanzuret-slot structure has got to be better than attaching to http://www.coslabindia.com/HL-55.jpg22:03
fenndoes it have X or Y axis drive? or only motorized Z?22:04
nmz787all axes22:04
gradstudentbotI lost my pipette.22:04
nmz787all 322:04
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nmz787fenn: so what material then?22:06
fennif you want to throw huge gobs of cash you could use epoxy granite concrete and linear ways22:07
fenni'm not sure why they use "crossed roller" ways in optical stuff22:07
nmz787i think the idea is to keep costs practical, i think unde $1k22:08
kanzureover $1k is okay22:08
fennis that just a way of saying "dovetail slides, but with rollers"?22:08
nmz787fenn: that is your question to answer22:08
nmz787my CAD PIPE is redirected to fenn22:09
fennmy optics experience consists of burning ants with a magnifying glass22:09
kanzureperfect22:09
nmz787i've been trying to learn for a while22:09
kanzurenmz787: do these guys have any good pics of their microscopy in action?22:09
fennso i was thinking a solar sand sinterer would be cool22:09
nmz787i have all the optical parts for the openlabtools scope i believe22:09
nmz787there was 1 or 2 pics22:09
fennone with better optics than that projection screen tv fresnel lens22:09
kanzurebecause the bug on this page sucks http://openlabtools.eng.cam.ac.uk/Instruments/Microscope/Optics/22:09
kanzurethis is just a fucking awful pic to advertize your microscope22:09
nmz787showing chromatic aberration i believe22:09
nmz787either from lack of oil, or from using the wrong tube lens22:10
nmz787i think/hope it was chromatic22:10
fenna dobsonian telescope would probably work for fine sintering22:10
kanzureand i hate how nobody does calibration or takes measurements22:10
nmz787as using laser is monochromatic so wont mess up like that22:10
kanzurewell that's fine, but that bug is way bigger than 1 micron22:10
kanzureor 10 microns22:10
kanzureor 100...22:11
fennis there supposed to be a video or something?22:11
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nmz787i dont think so22:11
kanzurehttp://openlabtools.eng.cam.ac.uk/Instruments/Microscope/media/OLT_Microscope.mp422:12
fennnevermind, i dunno why it didnt render at all in dillo22:12
nmz787https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/Microscope/conversations/topics/3356722:13
kanzure.title22:13
yoleauxYahoo Groups22:13
kanzurefuck you yahoo groups22:13
fenncan't they fix chromatic aberration by using an RGB LED and taking separate pictures?22:14
fennor is that too high tech22:14
gradstudentbotYeah, but his PI wrote his dissertation.22:14
fennam i a genius or is everyone just a moron22:15
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kanzureneither, you are simply stuck in the seventh circle of super hell22:15
kanzurecopy of their video (their server was downloading too slow for me..) http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/irc/openlabtools-microscope/OLT_Microscope.mp422:16
nmz787it wouldn't work well for living subjects22:16
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fennoh well, you would either get motion blur from 1/30 framerate or 1/90 framerate22:16
fennassuming your stepper can refocus fast enough22:16
kanzurewere you holding off on the stepper mount plates because we didn't know which stepper?22:17
nmz787unless you synched and stopped just before the exposure22:17
kanzurethis video is way too big for what it is showing22:18
fennhttp://www.designworldonline.com/When-to-Choose-Crossed-Roller-Bearings/22:18
fennugh it's not streamable?22:19
fenn"Cage creep can be prevented by studs that roll into the raceways depressions.22:20
nmz787fenn, actually their video says 8-bit RGB LED22:20
nmz787so they simply failed to get HDR images22:20
fenn<insert sarcastic WWF methamphetamine reference here>22:20
nmz787or HD-focus22:20
fennZ-stacking is pretty common in macro photography; i figured it was also standard practice in computer-controlled microscopy22:21
nmz787fenn: is 3d-printed bad for material?22:21
fennyes22:21
fennbut the rod ways are particularly bad22:21
nmz787fenn: i think you understimate CNC-scopy22:21
nmz787wait22:21
nmz787overestimate22:21
fennsuperestimate22:21
kanzureactually-estimate22:21
nmz787ultraestimate22:21
kanzurei don't think these guys were getting microscopic resolution22:22
fennyeah they should have taken photos of a CD or something22:22
kanzureand besides, if they were really serious, they would submerge the whole machine in oil to prove their determination22:22
fennnot "this hairy bug i pulled out of my butt-crack"22:22
nmz787that 80/20 t-slot seems pricey22:23
fennthat is openmakerbeamslot22:23
kanzure*beamslut22:23
fennsirbeamsalot22:23
kanzureah without the slut shaming. nice.22:23
nmz787decaocular microscope with interleave raspberry pi cameras each at 90FPS22:24
nmz787ULTRA22:24
nmz787DECA22:24
nmz787LAURYL22:24
kanzureare you okay?22:24
fennsulfonuramidoscope?22:24
nmz787oh, wait DOCECYL22:24
nmz787DODECYL22:24
nmz787**22:24
nmz787fenn: please make some recommendations before the night is through, or at least some things that might be the right direction if you aren't interested enough to spend more time on this22:25
nmz787we need you fenn!22:26
nmz787(or at least I think we do)22:26
fennbuy a microscope with a vertical camera port22:26
fennadd a beam splitter for whatever extra crap you want to add22:26
fenni know you lose power but i doubt laser power is the limiting factor22:27
nmz787for the custom job, would 3D printing be useful for design/prototyping stage?22:27
nmz787what about for lense holders?22:28
nmz787even for them just prototyping22:28
fennyou can just buy this stuff22:28
nmz787are CNC mills as easy to get parts out of as a 3D printer?22:28
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nmz787is the design strategy different, or just the CAM file?22:28
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kanzureyou give the machine shop your cad file, never a cam file22:28
nmz787CAM compiler22:28
fennno, and yes, and no22:29
fenncnc is a lot harder to think about than 3d printing22:29
fennthat's kinda the point22:29
fennif it were easy we wouldn't need 3d printers22:29
gradstudentbotI don't remember the paper, but someone definitely did that.22:29
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fennhuh that crossed roller way is pretty neat22:31
fennit's just a 90 degree v-groove22:32
fennsomeone should do a t-slot thing like that22:32
kanzureit would be nice to do the machine shop run al lat once22:33
kanzure*all at once22:33
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fenni'm not sure what you are planning on machining; all this is pretty standard microscope stuff, no?22:34
kanzurei am very confused about priorities22:34
fennyou need: a camera mount, a laser mount, a motorized stage22:34
kanzurethe xy stage needs to be mounted to something22:34
kanzureand the z has to be mounted somewhere22:34
nmz787and a microscope in between22:34
fennthe laser has independent focus mechanism, so why do you need a Z22:35
kanzuremicroscope tube and objective can be mounted on the z22:35
nmz787with adjustments everywhere for focus and if its our build I'd think tilt22:35
nmz787or that would all need to be precisely machined stuff so the angles were right22:35
kanzureoops, stage would have z22:35
kanzureyou want z for the normal reasons you have z on a microscope22:35
kanzurei don't see why it would be different just because you have a laser in use for less than 100% of the time?22:36
nmz787well there are two laser routes, one is beam splitter in the microscope (laser down the ocular of a bino scope)22:36
nmz787and a bluray module mounted next to the objective22:36
nmz787two different tests22:36
kanzurehuh?22:36
nmz787adjustable focus laser mated to a binocular scope's right-eye ocular... camera on the other ocular22:37
kanzureblah oculars..22:37
kanzureis that really necessary22:38
nmz787well we could call that area something else22:38
nmz787the tube lens i suppose22:38
nmz787lenses22:38
kanzurelike why do we have to have pieces that are fitted for human eyes- who cares22:38
nmz787that was just my labelling from the cannibalizing idea22:38
nmz787don't you care about robot eyes (cameras and lasers)22:39
kanzurethese just seem annoying: http://www.microscope.com/media/catalog/product/cache/2/image/9df78eab33525d08d6e5fb8d27136e95/m/e/meiji_mt6000_fluorescence_microscope_eyepieces.png22:39
fennyou can pull them out of the tube they sit in22:40
fennthen it's just like a camera port22:40
kanzureah22:40
fennthe ocular lenses usually help in mounting a webcam though because webcams have similar focal length and focusing range as human eyes22:40
fennor so i hear22:41
fennyou also should be able to pop off the rubber thingies22:41
kanzuregood22:41
nmz787yeah, maybe a set screw22:41
kanzurewhy are there only two?22:41
kanzurewhy not 822:41
fennbecause we're humans, not spiders22:41
* nmz787 nods22:42
kanzureugh22:42
nmz787shew spider!22:42
fennif you want to shoot lasers or use a camera, you're expected to use a microscope with a camera port22:42
kanzureyeah but i think we need more than just a trinocular microscope22:42
fennbut those tend to cost a lot more for reasons that are beyond my comprehension22:42
kanzure"because nobody knows how to insert a prism"22:43
fennthey tend to be much bigger and have more stuff22:43
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kanzure"elbow" http://www.truetex.com/zeiss_opmi_elbow_3.jpg22:44
kanzurehttp://www.truetex.com/zeiss_opmi_elbow_2.jpg22:44
fennthat is not what i mean22:44
kanzurei know22:45
fenni'm talking about  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Microscope_And_Digital_Camera.JPG22:45
kanzure.title http://www.truetex.com/micad.htm22:45
yoleauxMaking Digital Camera Microscope Adapters22:45
nmz787tri would only be needed for ....22:46
nmz787idk, if the computer was broken?22:46
nmz787we wanted another color laser22:46
fenna penny would have been a good test of the british microscope22:46
nmz787a spectrometer port22:46
fennoh but it's transmission, nevermind22:46
gradstudentbotI was searching for a new particle that alters gene expression, didn't find it, but didn't refute it's existence either. But then some other asshole professor at another school found it.22:47
fennmost of that truetex stuff is for mounting the camera to anything else22:47
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fennhonestly a lot of it can be done with a piece of pvc pipe22:49
kanzurethat page has a bunch of content22:49
fennbut "optics!" and "high quality!"22:49
kanzurepvc pipe sounds good to me22:49
fennyeah i've read it before22:49
kanzurelolwtf "Adapters incorporating optical elements are more complex and typically cost $500 to $950, including the optical elements. Complete kits for medical and scientific instruments, with custom mechanical, optical, and electronic components, range from $800 to $6000."22:50
fennare you going to believe the guy who makes his living selling adapters22:51
kanzurei am sure that's what he sells them for...22:51
kanzurewhat a booming market22:51
kanzureliterally dozens of microscopes aorund the globe22:52
fennyou fail at sarcasm22:52
kanzurehm? of course i'm not going to believe him22:52
kanzurebut also his market sucks22:52
fennnot everyone can make the next snapchat22:52
kanzurethat doesn't mean you should support the microscope monopolists22:53
kanzureisn't it just zeiss, olympus, nikon that are making "the good ones"?22:53
kanzureeverything else does not seem to be micro22:53
fenn I modify the the Microsoft Lifecam Cinema (720p HD) and Microsoft Lifecam Studio (1080p HD) cameras for scientific and medical instrumentation. The Lifecams are USB cameras with amazing high-definition video performance, especially considering their street price of about $50 to $100. They also have the rare virtue among webcams of being housed in a cylindrical metal shell, so they can be easily22:54
fennfitted into the cylindrical geometry typical of optical instrumentation, in many cases with no modifications, using a relatively simple mechanical adapter.22:54
nmz787I think someone asked for this a while ago, maybe gene_hacker http://diyhpl.us/~nmz787/pdf/Efficient_Assembly_of_Threaded_Molecular_Machines_for_Sequence-Specific_Synthesis.pdf22:54
gene_hackeroh no, I was posting that22:54
kanzurefenn, wouldn't it be better to just skip all the weirdo tubes, adapters, etc. completely, and just use your own pvc pipe stuff..22:55
fenni'd rather start with a cylindrical camera at least22:55
fenn"Just tested the Microsoft Lifecam Studio; it works out of the box on22:58
fennUbuntu 10.10 (both video and microphone worked perfectly). I tested22:58
fennusing cheese, camorama and skype."22:58
nmz787I haven't had time to sit and read this one http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/paperbot/Reproductive%20ectogenesis%3A%20The%20third%20era%20of%20human%20reproduction%20and%20some%20moral%20consequences.pdf22:58
fenn"One thing I did notice is that when I run v4l2ucp, the "Exposure,Auto"22:59
fennsetting has four modes (Auto, Manual, Shutter Priority and Aperture22:59
fennPriority) but only Manual and Aperture Priority work (the other two22:59
fennresult in a dialog saying "Unable to set Exposure,Auto; input/output22:59
fennerror"."22:59
kanzurehttp://www.amazon.com/Microsoft-LifeCam-Studio-1080p-Webcam/dp/B0042X8NT622:59
fennmanual exposure is what you want anyway22:59
nmz787raspberry pi cam should work22:59
nmz787i feel like i saw someone using the GPU for opencv stuff too22:59
kanzureCAM?22:59
kanzurethe point was that this camera is already fitted to the right ports23:00
nmz787maybe I am wrong about using GPU accell, maybe it was just for grabbing the video/images23:00
nmz787that binary blob23:00
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kanzurehm, maybe the concept of having multiple people working on design is stupid23:00
kanzureit is clear that there is no ability to get coherent23:00
kanzureand then you end up with stupid shit23:01
fennburbledeeburbledeebahbahblooo23:01
kanzurelike openlabtools' stuff23:01
fennhaven't you heard of "design by committee"23:01
kanzureit's not a committee if... well. uh.23:01
nmz787i think there aren't enough ppl on this 'team'23:01
kanzureis it?23:01
fennit's the latest executive mangement craze, patterned after the "waterfall pattern" pattern23:01
kanzurehahaha yeah add more people, that'll help23:01
kanzure(it wont)23:01
nmz787i am serious23:02
nmz787there isn't enough discussion23:02
nmz787not enought input23:02
nmz787not enough direction23:02
nmz787(you cried for it earlier)23:02
kanzurei have no idea what i could say to convince you otherwise23:02
nmz787get some more ppl who know CAD, know CNC, know optics23:02
kanzureall three of us know cad23:03
kanzurei don't think anyone knows optics23:03
nmz787what CAD tool should be used?23:03
kanzurebrlcad23:03
kanzurepython-brlcad if possible, but not necessary23:03
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kanzureopenscad is not end of world23:03
kanzurebut sorta is23:03
fennbrl-cad does ray tracing but does it know about chromatic aberration?23:03
kanzurei asked brlcad about that and he said - uh23:04
kanzurewell23:04
fenn"try it and find out!"23:04
kanzure10:10 < brlcad> kanzure: it won't do some optical effects like spectrum diffraction (prism effects)23:04
fennok23:04
kanzure10:13 < brlcad> ray tracing theory doesn't generally including wave effects like diffraction and interference23:05
kanzure10:13 < brlcad> our multispectral library might have that capability, but I honestly haven't looked at it in many years23:05
kanzure10:13 < brlcad> our multispectral library does track packets of spectrum as they propagate, but I don't know to what extent23:05
fennso you can actually ray trace a hyperspectral image?23:05
kanzure10:16 < brlcad> fwiw, I don't believe povray does diffraction either23:05
kanzure10:22 < brlcad> mildly relevant: http://brlcad.org/gallery/renderings/lightbulb/lightbulb23:06
kanzure10:23 < brlcad> had a rendering of a gci-modeled fresnel lens that was modeled in brl-cad, but I can't find the optical rendering23:06
kanzure10:23 < brlcad> kanzure: we also have http://brlcad.org/xref/source/src/proc-db/lens.c which might be interesting23:06
kanzure10:24 < brlcad> (it's one of brl-cad's dev tools, creates lens geometry)23:06
fennwell i remember seeing the magnified LED in the ronja animation23:06
fennso the newtonian optics seems to work well enough23:07
nmz787wouldn't the chromatic effect just be a LUT of color vs refractive index?23:07
kanzurejblake recommends pbrt (physics-based ray tracer)23:07
fennthat light bulb has some weird triangular artifacts23:08
kanzurewell, at minimum, lens.c looks interesting23:10
kanzureeven if not using their ray tracer23:10
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fennhuh so OLT microscope is top-lit (not transmission)23:13
fennalso they have no condenser lens23:13
fenni wonder if anyone who designed that had ever actually used a microscope before23:14
fenni also don't see any X or Y actuation23:14
nmz787fenn: for laser/DMD litho stuff we wouldn't need a condenser23:16
kanzurefenn: i would prefer not to do a committee23:16
kanzurelet's go with a benevolent dictator model23:16
kanzuremalevolent dictator also okay23:16
fennsample lifecam studio output http://fennetic.net/irc/cam1080a.mp4 http://fennetic.net/irc/cam1080b.mp4 from com/shop/usb-microscope-1080p-for-smt-soldering/51-lifecam-studio-1080p-microscope-lens-mod-kit23:18
fenngah23:18
fennhttp://www.diyinhk.com/shop/usb-microscope-1080p-for-smt-soldering/51-lifecam-studio-1080p-microscope-lens-mod-kit.html23:19
nmz787the benefits of higher framerate for the raspicam are quite a lot i think23:19
fenntoo bad the lifecam is rolling shutter, why is everything rolling shutter23:20
fennnmz787: yeah probably.. i am also just kind of interested in good small hackable webcams23:20
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nmz787yeah23:23
nmz787the raspi+cam was $40 when i got it23:23
nmz787it seemed pretty bad for low-light use, but I never even took the film off the lens so idk how well it was focused/aligned23:23
fennis it rolling shutter? (wobbly jello effect when shaking)23:23
nmz787but I imagine enough to do grid reticle stuff23:23
nmz787yeah I think so23:24
nmz787pulsed light can get around that23:24
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kanzurein fact, i think the number of designers should be reduced23:37
nmz787the night is almost over and we didn't spree at all23:40
* night nods23:40
fennback to my whale watching then23:40
kanzurehuh?23:40
kanzurebecause the design kept changing23:41
kanzuresuddenly there are belts23:41
kanzurethis is why i am suggesting the number of designers be reduced23:41
kanzurefenn: could you just scribble the rest of it out23:41
fenni still dont even know what you're building tbh23:42
fenna laser plotter with micron resolution?23:43
kanzurewhat is a "plotter"23:43
fenndraws lines23:43
kanzureso, there are a number of techniques for microfabrication that seem to all use the same hardware (other than the write method itself)23:43
fennexposes film with light23:43
nmz787you are the only one to mention belts, sir23:43
kanzureyou wanted a gear, what are you putting on the gear23:43
fennyou could direct drive the fine focus knob23:44
nmz787nothing goes on a gear23:44
nmz787it meshes with adjacent gears23:44
kanzureand what do those adjacent gears mesh to -_-23:44
nmz787the XY knobs are coaxial kno23:44
kanzurefenn: yes, light of various types: LEDs, laser, LCD projector, DMD projector23:44
nmz787tho23:44
fennok it would seem to be prudent to just use a microscope then, and develop each of these things as a microscope attachment23:45
kanzurealso with a camera port23:45
nmz787they don't mesh to anything else, one gear on the X shaft, on on the Y shaft... one on each of the two stepper motor shafts23:45
fennunless there is some reason to use all N of them at once23:46
nmz787find some glue or metal or 3d printed thing, sticks, chewing gum... to mount them so they mesh23:46
nmz787a motor to an axis-gear23:46
kanzurefenn: camera should be always-on23:46
kanzurefenn: as far as i can tell, the light sources will never be used at the same time, and probably could be switched out if the designer is clever enough with mounts23:47
kanzurewhere's the spec sheet for which optical mount connectors you need23:48
kanzurefor interfacing with the existing microscopes?23:49
fennmichael broxton would know all of this stuff23:49
kanzureand i don't understand why the design is different now23:49
kanzurelast time we looked at the laser cutter, it was not in a commodity microscope23:49
kanzurebut now it is?23:49
fennbecause before you wanted a huge slide with over 9,000 meters of continuous channel23:50
kanzurewasn't it only a few cm?23:50
fennthe specifications were lacking then too23:51
fenns/slide/microfluidics sandwich/23:51
kanzurewhat do you think a microfluidics sandwich is?23:51
nmz787delicious23:51
fennthe word "slide" is overloaded in this context23:51
kanzureall of the microscope projector lithography things are using "slides"23:52
nmz787https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C7HaQucL9pg23:52
kanzurespin coated with photoresist23:52
-!- petrushka [~asakharov@24.60.79.55] has quit [Quit: quit]23:52
fenni believe nmz787 was pushing for that form factor last(?) year and you wanted something bigger23:52
fennhas anyone seen katsmeow around?23:53
kanzureshe appeared once last year23:53
nmz787i would still love a better than backlash-filled design, but i think we need to get an iteration done with something that is at least accessible23:54
kanzurewhat the fuck does "accessible" mean23:54
fennability to test theories against experiment23:54
nmz787UPS can deliver it anywhere in the world in 5 to 14 days23:55
nmz787microscopes and those $3 steppers and gears are accessible23:55
kanzureokay, so what are the new design parameters?23:55
nmz787cheap is accessible23:55
nmz787if we do it and it turns out to do 1 micron lines but they're all jerky then we can try a $200 or $400 stage or whatever fenn's thing will cost23:56
nmz787with the super awesome slides and bearings23:56
nmz787if the thing gives us 100 micron lines we know23:56
nmz787maybe it will give 10 micron lines23:56
nmz787or 20 and be OK with respect to squiglyness23:56
kanzurethat sounds a lot like "engineering by not being sure about anything"..23:56
nmz787we don't know, so lets start with something that some other hacker dudes can easily replicate and augment/respin23:57
nmz787lets get /some/ data point23:57
fennyes we should be trying to at least design within an order of magnitude23:57
kanzureor, how about we fucking know things23:57
nmz787or we're just mentally masturbating23:57
kanzureknowing things is not masturbating...23:57
nmz787knowing them and talking about dong them someday is23:57
nmz787i want someday to be yesterday23:57
kanzureyou can't just buy random pixie dust and things magically work23:57
kanzurei am so confused23:58
nmz787and either move on to another project, or come back to it later with a fresh mindset, and in the mean time let it be there for inspiration to others23:58
kanzureso you are opposed to estimation for engineering design, or am i strawmanning you?23:58
fenni think he is just designing by what's available rather than starting with detailed specs and trying to find the perfect thing23:59
nmz787.dic strawmanning23:59
kanzurefenn: where "perfect" is "within an order of magnitude" ?23:59
nmz787.ud strawmanning23:59
fennstrawmanning = putting words in someone's mouth23:59
nmz787.wik strawmanning23:59
yoleaux"A straw man, also known in the UK as an Aunt Sally, is a common type of argument and is an informal fallacy based on the misrepresentation of the original topic of argument. To be successful, a straw man argument requires that the audience be ignorant or uninformed of the original argument." — http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straw_man23:59
--- Log closed Wed Jun 11 00:00:14 2014

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