| --- Log opened Fri Aug 15 00:00:35 2014 | ||
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| ebowden | paperbot: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15603744 | 03:31 |
|---|---|---|
| paperbot | http://libgen.org/scimag/get.php?doi=10.1016%2Fj.neuron.2004.12.001 | 03:31 |
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| pi- | Hello everyone | 05:31 |
| pi- | How many more of these hidden magic spots exist I wonder | 05:31 |
| ebowden | Probably a few. | 05:32 |
| pi- | Is anyone interested in critical period plasticity? | 05:32 |
| archels | hello pi- | 05:33 |
| pi- | hello | 05:33 |
| archels | what is your perspective on plasticity--biological, computational? | 05:33 |
| archels | nootropic? | 05:33 |
| pi- | bio/noot | 05:33 |
| pi- | http://pbrd.co/1t690kX <-- everything there that is non-invasive | 05:35 |
| archels | that recent thing about valproate comes to mind | 05:35 |
| pi- | That's about half the things in the green, and tDCS in the purple | 05:35 |
| pi- | yer I've just been trying it this last fortnight | 05:35 |
| pi- | It causes inflammation in my lungs | 05:36 |
| archels | oh, that's no good | 05:36 |
| pi- | I checked and it is reported side-effect for <1% of the population | 05:36 |
| pi- | So ... bollocks eh | 05:36 |
| * archels is a bit sceptical about the 'all thought to trigger plasticity... balance excitation/inhibition' | 05:36 | |
| pi- | I don't yet know enough to be sceptical or anti-sceptical | 05:37 |
| pi- | Whatever that word is... | 05:37 |
| archels | gullible | 05:37 |
| archels | :) | 05:38 |
| pi- | :) | 05:38 |
| pi- | I've been digging into the literature for the last month | 05:39 |
| ebowden | Can you ever not know enough to be gullible? | 05:39 |
| pi- | I think that's hence the smileys -- it isn't the correct opposite word | 05:39 |
| pi- | paperbot: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15603744 | 05:40 |
| paperbot | http://libgen.org/scimag/get.php?doi=10.1016%2Fj.neuron.2004.12.001 | 05:40 |
| pi- | ?! | 05:40 |
| pi- | damn | 05:40 |
| * pi- feeds paperbot a cookie | 05:40 | |
| * ebowden pets paperbot | 05:42 | |
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| heath | http://www.shellcheck.net/ | 08:30 |
| heath | automatically detects problems with sh/bash scripts and commands. | 08:30 |
| heath | https://github.com/koalaman/shellcheck | 08:31 |
| nsh | ShellCheck is written in Haskell, and requires 2 GB of memory to compile. | 08:32 |
| nsh | im lol't | 08:32 |
| kanzure | be nice | 08:36 |
| kanzure | hm that actually does sound pretty awful | 08:36 |
| ParahSailin | ghc can go a little crazy | 08:37 |
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| kanzure | bleh https://characteristic.readthedocs.org/en/0.1.0/why.html | 08:43 |
| kanzure | "The difference between namedtuples and classes decorated by characteristic is that the latter are type-sensitive and less typing aside regular classes" | 08:44 |
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| nsh | oh you know there's a type theory podcast now | 08:59 |
| nsh | .g type theory podcast | 08:59 |
| yoleaux | http://typetheorypodcast.com/2014/08/episode-1-peter-dybjer-on-type-theory-and-testing/ | 08:59 |
| nsh | .t | 08:59 |
| yoleaux | Fri, 15 Aug 2014 16:01:34 UTC | 08:59 |
| nsh | .title | 08:59 |
| yoleaux | Episode 1: Peter Dybjer on types and testing | 08:59 |
| kanzure | what we really need are hypertypes | 09:02 |
| nsh | how do you mean? | 09:07 |
| kanzure | said no one ever | 09:07 |
| ParahSailin | hypertype is a kind | 09:20 |
| ParahSailin | i dunno whats about kinds though | 09:21 |
| ParahSailin | above | 09:21 |
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| ParahSailin | fucking ruby http://www.redmine.org/issues/16194 | 09:37 |
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| kanzure | .title | 09:49 |
| yoleaux | Feature #16194: Ruby 2.1 support | 09:49 |
| chris_99 | hmm it'd be cool if there was a tool to OCR the text from a chip diagram e.g. http://www.analog.com/static/imported-files/images/functional_block_diagrams/ADA4870_fbl.png and generate a part from it, after you tell it the package type etc. | 09:51 |
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| nmz787_i1 | ParahSailin: I'm supposed to ask you about what antibody work you wanted done | 11:00 |
| ParahSailin | nothing at the moment | 11:00 |
| kanzure | that's not what i told you to ask | 11:04 |
| kanzure | i already covered it anyway | 11:04 |
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| thundara | nmz787_i1: So I had a project this summer where I and a friend built it, wanted it to be OS, but also wanted to sell it | 11:37 |
| thundara | So to cover our asses, we went with MS shared source | 11:38 |
| thundara | Since it's "see the source", but "pay to deploy" | 11:38 |
| kanzure | you can sell licenses even if you also use an open source license | 11:39 |
| kanzure | i nfact, lots of people license their work using multiple licenses simultaneously | 11:39 |
| thundara | Yeah, and the alternative to what we chose would be non-commercial license publicly and offer to negotiate a private one | 11:40 |
| thundara | The alternative we went with was just BSD and hope we don't get screwed :) | 11:41 |
| kanzure | yes but that doesn't communicate to him why an open source license can have benefits | 11:41 |
| thundara | Well, that depends on if it's a library or if it's an application | 11:42 |
| thundara | Application, meh, if it's OS, it's easy to share / reuse portions of code | 11:43 |
| thundara | But I think in his case and ours, he's fine making the license OS AFTER he gets paid | 11:43 |
| kanzure | this shortsightedness about making money cuts off huge amounts of strategies | 11:43 |
| thundara | Re-license the project to BSD/GPL/whatever | 11:43 |
| kanzure | like, it totally ignores all the reasons that companies actually write open source software | 11:43 |
| kanzure | if they weren't able to make money on their software, why would they even bother using these licenses | 11:44 |
| kanzure | his story doesn't add up | 11:44 |
| thundara | If you're just doing a small project, the possibility of getting screwed over payment on it makes all the difference... | 11:44 |
| kanzure | the potential to get screwed on payment is not why most people use open source licenses | 11:44 |
| thundara | Well yes, but with BSD/GPL, the potential is there | 11:45 |
| kanzure | huh? | 11:46 |
| thundara | If you can find another NC + OS license, that's fine, then everything's happy dandy | 11:46 |
| kanzure | let's say you are licensing some gpl software for $0, but you are making money with the software for other reasons, how is it that "the potential is still there" ?? | 11:46 |
| thundara | Well in our case (Maybe his), it wasn't SaaS, it was just selling one project | 11:47 |
| thundara | In our case an application, in his, no clue | 11:47 |
| thundara | Say, specialized account software, little value to you or me, doubtful we'd find another buyer, but to JPMorgan, it'll help their bottom line | 11:50 |
| kanzure | so are you asserting that there is no way to monetize with an open source strategy | 11:50 |
| thundara | We build it and intend to sell it for $$$$$$$, they notice it's BSD, fork it, start using that, and give us the middle finger, all legal | 11:51 |
| thundara | Bad business, but all legal | 11:51 |
| kanzure | okay, i have determined that you are an idiot | 11:52 |
| thundara | Not necessarily no way, but some avenues are more difficult than others, depending on how malicious your buyer is | 11:52 |
| thundara | That's an immature way to make an argument | 11:52 |
| kanzure | look, i have no problem with you selling software, but your story about them forking it is really boring and misunderstands how people make money on open source | 11:52 |
| thundara | I'm not saying sell to someone you think is going to fuck you | 11:52 |
| kanzure | it's totally mature, i get to pick and choose who i want to speak with, fuck you | 11:52 |
| thundara | My conversation was with nmz787_i1 anyways | 11:53 |
| thundara | I've talked to other OS advocates before about it and the best answer they gave us for our case was "trust", which is a fine answer, but it's different from a legal guarantee | 11:58 |
| thundara | We went with trust, since we figured paranoia was unwarranted | 11:59 |
| kanzure | "give them a permissive license, then beg them for money just because" is not a part of any open source strategy i'm familiar with, i think those advocates you were talking with were dumb | 12:00 |
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| thundara | If you're going to pretend like you understand this situation instead of asking more questions, then you're just going to get an inflammatory discussion | 12:01 |
| thundara | The case around this is: It's a non-profit that doesn't understand technology | 12:02 |
| thundara | It's a non-profit that has helped us, we want to help it back | 12:02 |
| kanzure | you are the non-profit? | 12:02 |
| dingo_ | openbsd once said of sun, when they did "OpenSolaris", that "Open" was short for "Open for Business" | 12:02 |
| thundara | kanzure: Co-op model, you can say we are part of it if you want, though neither of us are on its board | 12:02 |
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| thundara | They wanted to do an RFP, we wanted to just build the product, because we knew what people wanted, then sell it later | 12:04 |
| thundara | The "sane OS strategy" here would be wait for the RFP, apply, wait, sign contract, build it | 12:04 |
| kanzure | or, don't partner with people that don't understand licensing | 12:05 |
| thundara | Well like I said, it's a non-profit that has helped us, we want to help it back even if they are tech-ignorant | 12:05 |
| kanzure | non-profit is just a tax status.. doesn't tell me much. | 12:05 |
| thundara | Co-op housing | 12:06 |
| thundara | But they want $20k for custom app + lifetime support | 12:06 |
| kanzure | terrible | 12:06 |
| thundara | Yeah | 12:06 |
| thundara | But the software affects our friends, the people who work for the org, everyone, so we said fuckit, we'll build it | 12:07 |
| thundara | Still no solution on lifetime support, but who knows, app is built now at least... | 12:08 |
| thundara | So yeah, call me an idiot if you want, but sometimes the canonical business strategies don't fit everyday life | 12:08 |
| kanzure | that's not why i called you an idiot | 12:09 |
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| nsh | eudoxia, can i come and live with you in .uy? | 12:23 |
| nsh | oh, nm | 12:24 |
| nsh | "The Extradition Treaty between the Government of the United States of America and the Governmnet of Uruguay was signed at Washington on 6 April 1973." | 12:24 |
| eudoxia | aw | 12:24 |
| kanzure | do we need to fake your death | 12:24 |
| nsh | mebbes | 12:25 |
| eudoxia | kanzure: there must be *somebody* here who can clone him, put the clone in a car and run it off a cliff | 12:25 |
| nsh | you'd think... | 12:26 |
| nsh | just don't ask the FDA first | 12:26 |
| eudoxia | in law and order: criminal intent, vincent d'onofrio's nemesis escaped justice by fleeing to Australia | 12:27 |
| eudoxia | oh there's an extradition treaty there too | 12:27 |
| nsh | yeah, those entire television shows are false-flag operations | 12:58 |
| kanzure | that's like fleeing to florida | 12:58 |
| nsh | or limited hangout, or whatever term the dubiety-derelict are salivating over these days | 12:58 |
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| nmz787_i | thundara: thanks for the info... at first I thought you were talking about building an operating system and using a microsoft license at first, til I re-read things :P | 13:18 |
| nmz787_i | thundara: I don't know what an MS license is though | 13:18 |
| thundara | It's a bit specific to me, but yeah, wasn't sure your situation :P | 13:19 |
| nmz787_i | chemistry and hardware, though I also code... stuff I put online usually is licenseless | 13:19 |
| kanzure | that's not true at all | 13:20 |
| kanzure | under u.s. law your shit is not licenseless | 13:21 |
| nmz787_i | ok, awesome | 13:21 |
| nmz787_i | default rules | 13:21 |
| nmz787_i | the point is, anything I really value I keep to myself | 13:21 |
| nmz787_i | it's hard though because I think there could be some help on development if I were to talk openly about it... but I also think that could be a big flop and then competitors would see secrets and use them | 13:22 |
| nmz787_i | secrets/key-points unique/novel to my stuff | 13:22 |
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| thundara | nmz787_i: They are they ones who are proponents of shared source licenses / wrote licenses along those lines, don't know of any other orgs that have adopted the idea (For good reason in most cases) | 13:25 |
| nmz787_i | personally I'm ok with development being a little slow if it means a potentially larger payoff in the end | 13:29 |
| nmz787_i | it's just annoying sometimes, and I def know I should know more about legalities | 13:30 |
| kanzure | who sai danything about slow | 13:30 |
| kanzure | *who said anything about slow | 13:30 |
| nmz787_i | me | 13:30 |
| thundara | Well, if you have other people on board, how does credit work at the end? | 13:30 |
| nmz787_i | that too | 13:30 |
| kanzure | the normal ways | 13:30 |
| kanzure | wtf | 13:30 |
| kanzure | jrayhawk: help :( | 13:30 |
| nmz787_i | thundara: I think we crashed him | 13:32 |
| kanzure | equity is the normal way | 13:33 |
| kanzure | why would equity spontaneously not work in that scenario | 13:33 |
| kanzure | equity and paying people, that too | 13:34 |
| thundara | Not asking it as if it's an impossibility, just pointing out that it's something to think about | 13:35 |
| thundara | nmz787_i: Easy readings | 13:37 |
| thundara | http://www.quora.com/What-is-the-best-free-for-non-commercial-use-license-to-use-for-an-open-source-project | 13:37 |
| thundara | http://programmers.stackexchange.com/questions/198616/what-license-is-best-for-this-software-is-open-source-and-free-to-use-as-long-a | 13:37 |
| nmz787_i | thundara: hah, the second link has these comments: "why not just make it completely free, and sleep well knowing you've created something that others find useful?" "Maybe he sleeps better with a roof over his head." | 13:41 |
| kanzure | that's just a stupid argument, ignore it | 13:42 |
| nmz787_i | it's exactly what i'm thinking | 13:42 |
| nmz787_i | fuck pfizer or genentech or IDT | 13:42 |
| nmz787_i | they can hire me if they want my ideas, I'm not giving them shit for free | 13:42 |
| kanzure | "if you use an open source license, you will never make money because roofs over heads!" | 13:42 |
| thundara | Yeah, strawman | 13:43 |
| kanzure | well, that's what he just said | 13:43 |
| kanzure | how is it a strawman | 13:43 |
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| thundara | I was echoing what you said: that's just a stupid argument, ignore it | 13:44 |
| kanzure | he doesn't seem to be ignoring it | 13:44 |
| nmz787_i | nope | 13:44 |
| kanzure | he seems to agree completely | 13:44 |
| nmz787_i | pretty much | 13:44 |
| nmz787_i | not in all cases, but for some things, definitely | 13:45 |
| thundara | It's... words... sec, organizing thoughts | 13:45 |
| nmz787_i | I post little shit that would be helpful to the internet often enough, I can keep some potential money-makers to myself | 13:45 |
| pi- | paperbot:http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12440378 | 13:45 |
| kanzure | needs nbsp | 13:46 |
| pi- | paperbot: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12440378 | 13:46 |
| pi- | Is there any way I can do it without spamming the channel? | 13:46 |
| kanzure | no | 13:47 |
| pi- | I seem to have jammed it | 13:47 |
| thundara | If you are trying an actual business model centered around OSS, those comments are pretty, dump, and ignorant of strategies that don't involve "sell software, walk away", like SaaS / selling support | 13:47 |
| kanzure | pi-: it is thinking | 13:48 |
| thundara | Because with places like pfizer, genetech, really any major corp, they want someone they can call to fix things, to add new features, etc as the years go by | 13:48 |
| thundara | They don't want some crap that they drop $100k on and then breaks with a race condition that no one noticed in the initial release | 13:48 |
| nmz787_i | thundara: software is a minor concern to me now, mainly it would be chemistry protocols that I'm thinking about now | 13:49 |
| kanzure | those same strategies don't just magically fall apart the moment you stop talking about software | 13:49 |
| nmz787_i | so since it's licensed someone else can't use it in their own patent? | 13:49 |
| thundara | Yeah, is true of lots of everything from industrial fridges to washing machines | 13:50 |
| kanzure | software patents tend to trump software copyright in many cases | 13:50 |
| kanzure | but by trump i mean "the original deals are still valid, but now there's extra litigation" | 13:50 |
| * thundara doesn't know patent law | 13:51 | |
| nmz787_i | this also assumes someone catches this | 13:51 |
| nmz787_i | catches the stealing/misuse | 13:51 |
| kanzure | patents can also be licensed | 13:51 |
| nmz787_i | if their shit is closed-source, only reverse engineering a new multi-$100k machine would be the only way to determine | 13:51 |
| kanzure | that's why there are patent licenses | 13:51 |
| kanzure | you have that problem no matter what | 13:52 |
| nmz787_i | not with trade secrets as much | 13:52 |
| kanzure | even with trade secrets | 13:52 |
| nmz787_i | unless you have an organizational leak | 13:52 |
| thundara | Organizations leak | 13:53 |
| kanzure | memory leaks | 13:53 |
| pi- | rkn it has given up | 13:55 |
| kanzure | paperbot: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12440378 | 13:55 |
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| kanzure | paperbot: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12440378 | 13:56 |
| kanzure | hmph. | 13:56 |
| pi- | Is it rigged to report failure? | 13:56 |
| kanzure | sort of... it reports to a secret operative. | 13:57 |
| kanzure | 13:56 < paperbot> Translation server PDF fail | 13:57 |
| kanzure | hm. | 13:57 |
| kanzure | doesn't seem to be doing anything else | 13:57 |
| thundara | nmz787_i: Since it's sort of disorganizedly coming out... | 13:58 |
| thundara | You want a software / chemistry combo application? | 13:58 |
| pi- | Maybe it just can't find the full text PDF. I can't find it anywhere else... | 13:58 |
| thundara | That you want to sell to a pharma corp, but also want to open it up to allow for contributions from others? | 13:59 |
| thundara | Open == publish source | 13:59 |
| pi- | I use JUCE which is a multi platform C++ framework geared towards audio that creates its own license to allow exactly that model | 14:00 |
| pi- | It is free so long as derived works are open source. But to use it for closed source commercial purposes you have to pay a license fee. | 14:01 |
| thundara | That's sort of like GPL | 14:01 |
| pi- | paperbot: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/10667797 | 14:01 |
| nmz787_i | thundara: not exactly/really | 14:01 |
| paperbot | http://libgen.org/scimag/get.php?doi=10.1038%2F35000226 | 14:01 |
| nmz787_i | thundara: I actually am working on chemistry like in a lab | 14:02 |
| pi- | paperbot: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12037567 | 14:02 |
| paperbot | http://libgen.org/scimag/get.php?doi=10.1038%2F417547a | 14:02 |
| pi- | paperbot: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12089450 | 14:03 |
| paperbot | http://libgen.org/scimag/get.php?doi=10.1126%2Fscience.1073031 | 14:03 |
| nmz787_i | thundara: it would be nice to have some help on the ideas, and maybe opening up would help to inspire others to make new innovations... I just don't want some mega-corp pulling the rug from under me... seeing some message board e-mail chain about how to get around some problem, then incorporating it themselves and hiding it under a metal case that costs half a mil to purchase... such that I'd possibly never know it was stolen/used wit | 14:04 |
| kanzure | you still have message cutoff | 14:05 |
| pi- | paperbot: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11891768 | 14:05 |
| thundara | Well, if you publish the source, fact of the matter is that less reputable groups will break the license and use it illegally, not much you can do about that (See ffmpeg's wall of shame), but for large corps, its usually the case that the money is less the problem than the support | 14:06 |
| thundara | Like I said though, you can do a NC license (And dual license it when a commercial group wants to make an agreement), you just won't get much help from OSI people because it's against their ideology | 14:07 |
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| kanzure | haha ideology | 14:08 |
| nmz787_i | is NC non-compete? | 14:08 |
| kanzure | no | 14:08 |
| kanzure | it's non-commercial | 14:08 |
| pi- | paperbot: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/24586346 | 14:08 |
| paperbot | http://libgen.org/scimag/get.php?doi=10.1371%2Fjournal.pone.0088593 | 14:08 |
| thundara | (Also, if you are in a lab, make sure you're not violating its policies on what of your work they have rights to) | 14:08 |
| thundara | ^^ | 14:08 |
| kanzure | thundara: calling it ideology just gives him a reason to write it off ("they are clearly crazy") | 14:08 |
| nmz787_i | thundara: it's my own biz | 14:09 |
| thundara | kanzure: Fair point, yeah, don't mean it that way | 14:09 |
| nmz787_i | realistically making the project take a few years longer doesn't seem to be a big deal on evolutionary time-scale... society can wait | 14:11 |
| nmz787_i | there are also security aspects that I'm concerned about | 14:11 |
| nmz787_i | I don't want to give China an 0day for biohacking | 14:11 |
| kanzure | oh brother | 14:11 |
| nmz787_i | or north K | 14:11 |
| thundara | nmz787_i: Gonna hazard a guess and say they don't need our help | 14:12 |
| nmz787_i | at least not til i patch myself :) | 14:12 |
| nmz787_i | thundara: exactly, screw them | 14:12 |
| kanzure | huh? | 14:12 |
| kanzure | no, he's saying you shouldn't worry about releasing a 0day | 14:12 |
| thundara | No, like, if they wanted to do it, they wouldn't need your help | 14:13 |
| kanzure | anyway, you shouldn't assume that development time is substantially different just because of which licensing scheme you are using | 14:13 |
| kanzure | nobody has ever said projects get developed faster because of an open source license | 14:13 |
| kanzure | and i don't see why you would even bring that up | 14:13 |
| kanzure | argh | 14:13 |
| kanzure | jrayhawk: help? | 14:13 |
| nmz787_i | no one comments on shit I don't post | 14:14 |
| nmz787_i | posting would open it to commentary | 14:14 |
| nmz787_i | since I don't have a chemist assistant yet on the project, there's no one now | 14:14 |
| kanzure | what are you answering | 14:14 |
| nmz787_i | (2:15:04 PM) kanzure: anyway, you shouldn't assume that development time is substantially different just because of which licensing scheme you are using | 14:15 |
| kanzure | what does that have to do with commenting | 14:15 |
| nmz787_i | the whole posting it is precluded by the licensing argument | 14:15 |
| kanzure | what? | 14:15 |
| kanzure | i am having a seriously hard time sorting through this spaghetti | 14:16 |
| nmz787_i | I won't post if it isn't safe, if it isn't posted no one will comment, if no one comments I make take longer to discover/uncover flaw (or maybe i never find this out) | 14:16 |
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| nmz787_i | I make==I may | 14:16 |
| thundara | Hehe, I wouldn't trust opening a project to be a substitute for QC / tests | 14:16 |
| nmz787_i | not saying that at al | 14:18 |
| nmz787_i | all | 14:18 |
| nmz787_i | i'm talking about development | 14:18 |
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| ParahSailin | ruby too meta for documentation | 14:58 |
| thundara | paperbot: http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/9780470122969.ch2/summary | 15:01 |
| thundara | paperbot: http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/9780470122969.ch2/pdf | 15:01 |
| paperbot | http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/paperbot/cfe72a384e8c49d83fd860eab1c8a950.txt | 15:01 |
| paperbot | http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/paperbot/9b0916168074cb9d2b419a1f42d9179c.txt | 15:01 |
| thundara | :( | 15:03 |
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| pi- | paperbot: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15548666 | 15:05 |
| paperbot | http://libgen.org/scimag/get.php?doi=10.1523%2FJNEUROSCI.2828-04.2004 | 15:05 |
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| pi- | paperbot: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12815233 | 15:09 |
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| thundara | nmz787_i: The sort answer is that if you want, you can write your license to include: "Not for commercial use", and that will solve the problem that you are immediately asking | 15:18 |
| thundara | But the more involved answer is that OSS groups advocate a different business model from the one you are describing, and it might be worth checking out publications by the OSI/EFF (And other groups?) before you set your idea in stone and begin work | 15:19 |
| kanzure | that's not going to convince anyone of anything | 15:24 |
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| thundara | kanzure: Quit being passive aggressive, if you have an point, make it, I'm saying: "There are people who think and write a lot about these things and you should check them out", I'm not a financial advisor trying to save him from jeopardy. | 15:47 |
| thundara | I am just trying to point him in the right direction, but I have better things to do than write on IRC all day | 15:47 |
| kanzure | my exact point was that your sentence was unconvincing to him | 15:47 |
| dingo_ | i wouldn't contribute to a project that somebody makes money from, that i'm now allowed to, unless they're paying me | 15:48 |
| kanzure | me telling you that is not passive aggressive, it's called being upfront.. | 15:48 |
| kanzure | dingo_: now allowed? | 15:48 |
| dingo_ | an open source license that is "Not for commercial use" | 15:48 |
| dingo_ | they're very off-putting as an OSS contributor | 15:49 |
| dingo_ | i look for ISC/BSD only wherever possible | 15:49 |
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| nmz787_i | thundara: kanzure is wrong, your sentence was well taken. | 16:55 |
| kanzure | you were convinced? | 16:57 |
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| nmz787 | I was convinced that I could write my own license, and that OSS wouldn't advocate what I'm talking about | 17:23 |
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| bbrittain | wait. who is thinking about writing a license? | 17:40 |
| bbrittain | like... thats a bad idea | 17:40 |
| bbrittain | like... really bad. | 17:41 |
| chris_99 | probably, unless you know law | 17:41 |
| bbrittain | even then | 17:41 |
| bbrittain | questionably idea | 17:41 |
| bbrittain | questionable* idea | 17:41 |
| bbrittain | like, copyright/licensing laws are fucking complicated | 17:42 |
| bbrittain | I have to deal with them all the time | 17:42 |
| bbrittain | they do not work the way one expects half the time | 17:42 |
| chris_99 | mmm i imagine theres lots of loopholes | 17:43 |
| chris_99 | etc. | 17:43 |
| kanzure | bbrittain: backcontext is that nmz787 thinks that you can't make money with open source, roofs over heads, etc | 17:43 |
| * bbrittain rolls eyes | 17:43 | |
| kanzure | and i have no idea how to debug this | 17:43 |
| bbrittain | nmz787 should sell me unlimited amounts of redhat stock for cheap then | 17:45 |
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| bbrittain | or you know.... explain the paycheck I just picked up today | 17:45 |
| kanzure | i can't explain that, why would they be giving you physical paychecks aren't they digital-friendly over there | 17:46 |
| bbrittain | yea, but I like seeing how much money they take out in taxes every single time | 17:47 |
| bbrittain | fills me with righteous anger. | 17:47 |
| kanzure | ah | 17:48 |
| kanzure | bbrittain: you will convince ginkgo to go for an open source strategy, right? | 17:48 |
| bbrittain | kanzure: actually one of my goals in being there. I talked with them about it during my interviews | 17:49 |
| kanzure | and what was the vibe? | 17:49 |
| bbrittain | open to it at least on the software tools they have. biostuff... I dunno. I'll try | 17:49 |
| kanzure | meh | 17:50 |
| bbrittain | haven't talked with those people that much | 17:50 |
| kanzure | that's not very encouraging, but whatever | 17:50 |
| kanzure | their loss | 17:50 |
| bbrittain | I can make them understand that | 17:50 |
| kanzure | it's not "out of the goodness of their heart" thing (although it could be marketed that way for free) | 17:51 |
| bbrittain | obviously not. there is benefit in making the ecosystem | 17:51 |
| bbrittain | open source is good for a vast number of reasons | 17:51 |
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| nmz787 | bbrittain: i definitely didn't say I didn't think money could be made | 18:57 |
| nmz787 | bbrittain: it was much more specific | 18:57 |
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| kanzure | ? | 19:01 |
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| kanzure | hm | 20:14 |
| ParahSailin | kanzure: have you had to work with rails much? this shit is incomprehensible | 20:14 |
| ParahSailin | im seeing request.env pop up all over the place, and none of these functions have request as a parameter | 20:16 |
| kanzure | i have written more with rails than i would ever want to admit | 20:16 |
| kanzure | it is probably a reference to some member of the current controller | 20:17 |
| kanzure | in general when headscratching about ruby always assume it's the most magical thing you could possibly imagine | 20:17 |
| kanzure | so when there's something not defined? most likely a part of str | 20:17 |
| kanzure | and when something is defined and looks like a variable, it's probably a block or function | 20:18 |
| ParahSailin | im trying to hook redmine into my single auth system, and this rails shit is completely bewildering | 20:19 |
| kanzure | what is your auth system | 20:19 |
| ParahSailin | just some shit in lua that add an http header with the username before passing request on to an app server | 20:20 |
| kanzure | best case is look for redmine oauth things and then rip out the oauth parts | 20:20 |
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| ParahSailin | yeah ive been derping around with https://github.com/tdvsdv/single_auth for hours trying to figure out wtf is wrong | 20:33 |
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| kanzure | well, give me tracebacks | 20:44 |
| ParahSailin | im not even sure how i would get that sort of thing honestly-- sometimes passenger is putting shit in the nginx error_log, but otherwise useless | 20:45 |
| kanzure | which version of rails? | 20:47 |
| ParahSailin | 3.2.19 | 20:49 |
| kanzure | hm! | 20:49 |
| kanzure | have you set config.logger | 20:49 |
| kanzure | also i suggest setting the level to debug | 20:49 |
| ParahSailin | i wouldnt even know where that would be | 20:51 |
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| ParahSailin | how do these guys even 2space indent | 22:30 |
| dingo_ | :set ts=2 | 22:36 |
| ParahSailin | smartass | 22:36 |
| dingo_ | man i was a webadmin for a mish-mash of rails apps in mid-2000's, it was... troubling | 22:37 |
| dingo_ | i knew ruby scripting before then, and it just turned me off, way off, i won't ever write rails, ever | 22:37 |
| dingo_ | i debugged so many god damned tracebacks and abstractions i nearly lost my mind | 22:37 |
| dingo_ | and the debug is... uhh... the top-level yaml config or some such | 22:38 |
| ParahSailin | it was between trac and redmine, it was decided we needed redmine | 22:39 |
| ParahSailin | so out comes the fucking rails | 22:39 |
| dingo_ | ahh | 22:39 |
| dingo_ | so you gotta roll your own customizations then | 22:39 |
| ParahSailin | aye, never did any ruby shit | 22:40 |
| ParahSailin | i thought, oh thats pretty much python-- little did i know that the standard library is bizarro land | 22:40 |
| dingo_ | the monkey patching across libraries is where it gets difficult, and the namespaces are strange | 22:40 |
| dingo_ | i'm a vi guy, so i find it really annoying to have to edit many files for a single workflow of code | 22:41 |
| ParahSailin | you have names popping up everywhere, no idea where they come from | 22:41 |
| dingo_ | yeah that, exactly, i have trouble with that, too | 22:41 |
| kanzure | they are all from the str class | 22:41 |
| ParahSailin | theres no import shit at the top to help you out | 22:41 |
| dingo_ | if you have time, you probably need to try a basic rails demo app tutorial to understand where the MVC abstractions "go" | 22:41 |
| kanzure | .g ruby magic str class editing | 22:41 |
| yoleaux | http://stackoverflow.com/questions/7490680/in-rails-how-to-add-a-new-method-to-string-class | 22:41 |
| dingo_ | its just like this layout thing you gotta follow | 22:41 |
| dingo_ | might help, might not, hehe | 22:42 |
| ParahSailin | how do i fucking delete a before_action in the main controller, without actually editing the core source | 22:42 |
| ParahSailin | this should be possible with like a monkeypatch right? | 22:42 |
| kanzure | del? | 22:42 |
| kanzure | i mean without the ? | 22:42 |
| kanzure | damn it | 22:42 |
| dingo_ | yeah i think you can just del the damn thing from.. somewhere | 22:42 |
| dingo_ | theres like a console you can pull up to interact with the site from an irb session somehow | 22:43 |
| kanzure | pry | 22:43 |
| ParahSailin | should i just delete this line, or can i make a plugin that will have the same effect https://github.com/redmine/redmine/blob/master/app/controllers/application_controller.rb#L52 | 22:44 |
| ParahSailin | like, include/extend whatever | 22:45 |
| kanzure | you can extend/override their ApplicationController class | 22:45 |
| kanzure | but they might have a preferred idiomatic way of doing that for plugins in their project | 22:45 |
| ParahSailin | and it wont inherit that line? | 22:45 |
| dingo_ | maybe you would set it nil? | 22:46 |
| kanzure | it will, but look lower, all of those are just references to class methods | 22:46 |
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| kanzure | so you can override the class methods | 22:46 |
| kanzure | or yes before_filter nil might work | 22:46 |
| ParahSailin | so set them to empty functions? | 22:46 |
| kanzure | well these look relevant to login things, which i assume you are still doing.. | 22:47 |
| ParahSailin | or i can delete those functions and ruby wont care that there is nothing there when the thunk happens | 22:47 |
| kanzure | btw there's a skip_before_filter | 22:47 |
| dingo_ | i think you need to buy a tweed jacket then you'll figure it out | 22:47 |
| ParahSailin | so extending that thing with skip_before_filter is the most sensible way of deleting those callbacks? | 22:48 |
| kanzure | haha | 22:49 |
| kanzure | "before_filter in your subclass doesn't override the same call in the super class, but they stack after each other instead. It is how the chain of filters work. If you want to skip the filter added in your ApplicationController, you can use skip_before_filter method - see "Filter Chain Skipping" section here in the filters documentation." | 22:49 |
| kanzure | http://api.rubyonrails.org/classes/ActionController/Filters/ClassMethods.html | 22:49 |
| kanzure | 404 hahaha | 22:50 |
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| kanzure | i think you just need skip_before_filter :each :of :those :from :the :before_filter | 22:50 |
| dingo_ | that sounds like good advice | 22:51 |
| ParahSailin | can i have this with type annotations? | 22:51 |
| kanzure | .g "At first glance Ruby doesn't support annotations, but if tilt your head you'll find it does." | 22:52 |
| yoleaux | http://martinfowler.com/bliki/RubyAnnotations.html | 22:52 |
| kanzure | "at first it may seem like ruby isn't anything you would ever want to deal with, but if you just ignore that for a moment, you'll find that it still doesn't." | 22:53 |
| kanzure | isn't. | 22:53 |
| ParahSailin | id rather be c++ bindings | 22:54 |
| ParahSailin | ah heres where skip callbacks is defined https://github.com/rails/rails/blob/0e7744e55e8528c9fc3b88e98d5e5cdd29651eb0/activesupport/lib/active_support/callbacks.rb | 22:55 |
| ParahSailin | theres a delete in there, ok im satisfied | 22:55 |
| ParahSailin | oh wow i found the log file | 22:56 |
| ParahSailin | time to throw printf statements everywhere | 22:57 |
| kanzure | i think you want: logger.debug "wut" | 22:57 |
| ParahSailin | this is the best programming language | 22:58 |
| ParahSailin | written by a mormon | 22:59 |
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| ebowden | paperbot: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18774923 | 23:54 |
| paperbot | ConnectionError: HTTPConnectionPool(host='libgen.org', port=80): Max retries exceeded with url: /scimag/librarian/form.php (Caused by <class 'socket.gaierror'>: [Errno -2] Name or service not known) (file "/usr/local/lib/python2.7/dist-packages/requests/adapters.py", line 375, in send) | 23:54 |
| ebowden | http://informahealthcare.com/doi/pdf/10.1517/14712598.8.10.1561 | 23:55 |
| ebowden | paperbot: http://informahealthcare.com/doi/pdf/10.1517/14712598.8.10.1561 | 23:55 |
| paperbot | http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/paperbot/e9b97748cd893495ebaff80904b6edf9.txt | 23:55 |
| ebowden | paperbot: http://www.researchgate.net/publication/23240979_LINGO-1_antagonists_as_therapy_for_multiple_sclerosis_in_vitro_and_in_vivo_evidence | 23:57 |
| ebowden | paperbot: http://informahealthcare.com/doi/pdf/10.1517/14712598.8.10.1561 | 23:58 |
| paperbot | http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/paperbot/ca118a70a4960dcfbd220784b851cae2.txt | 23:58 |
| paperbot | http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/paperbot/d19a72d45c83da7e33ae97e33b3c9a15.txt | 23:58 |
| --- Log closed Sat Aug 16 00:00:18 2014 | ||
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