| --- Log opened Wed Oct 22 00:00:23 2014 | ||
| justanotheruser | nmz787: okay, did you read shamirs paper? | 00:01 |
|---|---|---|
| justanotheruser | would you care to tell me whats wrong with it? | 00:01 |
| nmz787 | never heard of it | 00:06 |
| justanotheruser | nmz787: "Quantitative Analysis of the Full Bitcoin Transaction Graph" | 00:07 |
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| nmz787 | sorry, busy looking at 'Use of domestic detergents in the California mastitis test for high somatic cell counts in milk' | 00:14 |
| nmz787 | paperbot: http://veterinaryrecord.bmj.com/content/163/19/566.long | 00:14 |
| paperbot | http://libgen.org/scimag/get.php?doi=10.1136%2Fvr.163.19.566 | 00:14 |
| justanotheruser | interesting... | 00:15 |
| nmz787 | paperbot: http://veterinaryrecord.bmj.com/content/163/19/566.full.pdf+html | 00:17 |
| paperbot | http://libgen.org/scimag/get.php?doi=10.1136%2Fvr.163.19.566 | 00:17 |
| nmz787 | justanotheruser: sorry i'm only just above a newb when it comes to bitcoin | 00:22 |
| justanotheruser | nmz787: but as you said, that shouldn't matter | 00:24 |
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| archels | relevant to last night's discussion http://cameramaker.se/microlenses.htm | 01:45 |
| archels | .title | 01:45 |
| yoleaux | The Camera Maker - Making Microlenses | 01:45 |
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| jrayhawk_ | coooool | 02:51 |
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| JayDugger | Good morning. | 06:41 |
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| kanzure | oof | 09:00 |
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| kanzure | stalk: Rusnak <stick@gk2.sk> | 09:04 |
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| fenn | this was cute, literal AR sandbox http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9IRm-IamCqo | 09:27 |
| kanzure | http://www.blockstream.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/10/sidechains.pdf | 09:28 |
| fenn | 502 bad gateway | 09:29 |
| kanzure | http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/bitcoin/sidechains.pdf | 09:30 |
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| kanzure | http://0bin.net/paste/PpyKcrm5Y1wb5AUJ#kwDsCN6TwWDn61j8QKCn7ifRzSlqwmBJxHUyvsUiHRJ | 09:40 |
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| fenn | a client side encrypted pastebin? | 10:00 |
| kanzure | where have you been | 10:01 |
| kanzure | what was megaupload? | 10:01 |
| justanotheruser | mega you mean? | 10:01 |
| kanzure | whatever? heh | 10:01 |
| * justanotheruser pedants | 10:01 | |
| fenn | i mean i get the concept, but it just seems totally lame to fail completely if there isn't actually any encryption. if there is encryption then where is the decryption key? | 10:02 |
| kanzure | url | 10:02 |
| fenn | that's fucking retarded | 10:03 |
| kanzure | hahah | 10:03 |
| justanotheruser | is it? | 10:03 |
| fenn | yes | 10:03 |
| justanotheruser | why? | 10:03 |
| kanzure | not even https too | 10:03 |
| justanotheruser | yeah, lack of https is stupid | 10:03 |
| justanotheruser | but I don't see the problem with the url having the key | 10:03 |
| fenn | because a) the host gets the key, thus negating the point of client-side encryption, b) random packet sniffers get the key c) its in your browser history, d) and on and on | 10:04 |
| justanotheruser | fenn: well most of those are http problems afaix | 10:05 |
| justanotheruser | *afaix | 10:05 |
| fenn | and i cant read the faq because i dont have javascript? srsly | 10:05 |
| justanotheruser | *afaik | 10:05 |
| kanzure | well you should double check what 0bin is doing, i haven't really checked | 10:05 |
| kanzure | i just always assumed the thing in the url was the key | 10:05 |
| kanzure | because i can't figure out why else you would do it like this | 10:05 |
| justanotheruser | kanzure: either its in the URL or it isn't encrypted | 10:05 |
| kanzure | right, except i haven't read 0bin's site ever | 10:05 |
| justanotheruser | kanzure: and it gives you bad key if you change the url :p | 10:05 |
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| kanzure | just viewed a few pastes once in a while | 10:05 |
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| fenn | "The browser never sends the hash to the server" | 10:07 |
| fenn | they are talking about the # anchor hash | 10:08 |
| fenn | The goal of 0bin is <strong>not</strong> to protect the user and their data | 10:08 |
| fenn | Instead, it aims to protect the host from being sued for the | 10:08 |
| fenn | content users pasted on the pastebin. | 10:09 |
| fenn | meh | 10:09 |
| kanzure | heh | 10:12 |
| justanotheruser | smart | 10:13 |
| justanotheruser | I wonder if them saying the encryption prevents them from being sued would hurt them in court | 10:14 |
| chris_99 | oh i wrote something to scrape pastebin for CCs just to see if there were any | 10:14 |
| kanzure | nothing can prevent you from being sued | 10:15 |
| justanotheruser | lol | 10:18 |
| fenn | presumably they could just implement "client side rot13" with a button you click to get the cleartext | 10:18 |
| justanotheruser | literally you can sue anyone for anything. A lot of the time it will be thrown out though. | 10:18 |
| fenn | there's certainly enough (stupid) legal precedent to claim that rot13 is a form of encryption | 10:19 |
| justanotheruser | kanzure: could you help me with a datastructures problem? I want to make a search engine that finds bitcoin scripts. If someone searches "OP_ADD, OP_CHECKSIG", I want to return results that have both of those opcodes. The scripts are just byte arrays, so I'm wondering what datastructure or database setup is good for searching 10s of millions of these byte arrays. I have a hacky solution right now I'm thinking of involving ... | 10:19 |
| justanotheruser | ... a single table where each column is a boolean representing whether that opcode is present. | 10:19 |
| justanotheruser | tl;dr: how to preprocess list of byte arrays so I can search and find byte arrays containing a list of bytes? | 10:20 |
| fenn | sort them as if they were integers? | 10:21 |
| kanzure | this sounds like some sort of set search thingy. xapian? | 10:21 |
| chris_99 | so you wan't to search for multiple strings, within a string? | 10:21 |
| chris_99 | aho-corasick if so | 10:21 |
| kanzure | they shouldn't really be considered strins | 10:21 |
| kanzure | *strings | 10:21 |
| kanzure | this dataset is much more restricted than normal stringy datasets | 10:22 |
| kanzure | afk | 10:22 |
| chris_99 | aho-corasick works on binary | 10:22 |
| chris_99 | too | 10:22 |
| chris_99 | AV guys use it | 10:22 |
| fenn | is OP_ADD a bit vector? | 10:24 |
| fenn | or is it an integer | 10:24 |
| justanotheruser | kanzure: restricted only by validity | 10:24 |
| justanotheruser | but I'll check out xapian | 10:25 |
| kanzure | fenn: integer | 10:25 |
| justanotheruser | fenn: 0x93 | 10:25 |
| kanzure | fenn: https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Script | 10:25 |
| justanotheruser | kanzure: in what sense is it an integer? | 10:25 |
| fenn | ok nevermind then | 10:26 |
| justanotheruser | when the byte has math done on it it is an integer "When used as numbers, byte vectors are interpreted as little-endian variable-length integers with the most significant bit determining the sign of the integer. Thus 0x81 represents -1. 0x80 is another representation of zero (so called negative 0). Positive 0 is represented by a null-length vector. Byte vectors are interpreted as Booleans where False is represented by any ... | 10:26 |
| justanotheruser | ... representation of zero, and True is represented by any representation of non-zero." | 10:26 |
| kanzure | 0x93 is an integer | 10:27 |
| fenn | i was thinking you had a bit array for each script, where each opcode is represented by one bit. then you bitwise AND those fields with your search query (also a bit array) | 10:27 |
| kanzure | .py 0x93 | 10:28 |
| yoleaux | 147 | 10:28 |
| justanotheruser | kanzure: it is all about interpretation | 10:28 |
| justanotheruser | they're signed so its actually -13 | 10:28 |
| justanotheruser | but that is only when a byte is on the stack and is being interpreted by something that cares about booleans and ints iirc | 10:29 |
| fenn | "a single table where each column is a boolean" is basically a bit field (array of bit vectors) | 10:31 |
| justanotheruser | fenn: its indexed too | 10:31 |
| justanotheruser | well... | 10:32 |
| justanotheruser | there are 10 million entries | 10:32 |
| justanotheruser | I wonder how bad it would be to read 2 mb | 10:32 |
| justanotheruser | probably worse than the space that it would take up on disk | 10:32 |
| fenn | i dont know enough about how databases search things like that to say whether it's efficient or not (my gues is they aren't designed for that type of search) | 10:32 |
| justanotheruser | probably not... but it may still be faster since its O(log n) | 10:33 |
| fenn | there are on the order of 255 opcodes, so each entry needs 255 bits or 319MB for 10 million entries | 10:34 |
| fenn | why do you want to search for the presence of any particular combination of opcodes? | 10:35 |
| justanotheruser | fenn: because it could yeild interesting scripts | 10:36 |
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| kanzure | yeah, there's a bunch of interesting stuff floating around in there | 10:36 |
| kanzure | it's sort of like searching for malware too | 10:36 |
| kanzure | and then various automatic code analysis benefits | 10:36 |
| fenn | it may be worth your time to do cluster analysis and various types of dimensionality reduction | 10:37 |
| fenn | are you familiar with basic machine learning algorithms? | 10:38 |
| justanotheruser | ya | 10:38 |
| justanotheruser | just took a class on it | 10:38 |
| kjskjskjs | justanotheruser: the right data structure for this problem depends a lot on the distribution of the data | 10:38 |
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| justanotheruser | I wonder if it would be faster to do it with numpy or find a C++ class | 10:38 |
| kjskjskjs | if almost all scripts contain OP_ADD and almost all scripts contain OP_CHECKSIG then you probably need to precompute the OP_ADD ∧ OP_CHECKSIG result | 10:39 |
| kjskjskjs | fenn's suggested approach involves iterating over all the scripts. ideally taht's what you'd like to avoid | 10:40 |
| justanotheruser | kanzure: you think xapian would be a good fit for this? | 10:40 |
| fenn | if you're interested in outliers it would seem a statistical analysis approach would be better suited than searching one query at a time | 10:40 |
| justanotheruser | I want exact results btw, not fuzzy results ofcourse | 10:40 |
| kanzure | justanotheruser: not particularly, it's just something on the top of my mind | 10:40 |
| kjskjskjs | things like xapian and lucene can solve this problem, but maybe not efficiently | 10:41 |
| kjskjskjs | 10 million is not very big though | 10:41 |
| kjskjskjs | if you only have 10 million scripts to search then just iterate over them | 10:41 |
| justanotheruser | kjskjskjs: yeah, probably 99% of scripts are of the form <somebytes> <somebytes> OP_DUP OP_HASH160 <somebytes> OP_EQUALVERIFY OP_CHECKSIG | 10:41 |
| kjskjskjs | don't even bother with fancy bit-field data structures | 10:41 |
| justanotheruser | and another .9% is probably p2sh | 10:42 |
| kanzure | i think these scripts can even fit in memory | 10:42 |
| kjskjskjs | hmm, in that case if you had a list of scripts including OP_ADD then you could reduce the number of things to iterate over by 100× | 10:42 |
| kjskjskjs | for that query | 10:42 |
| kanzure | you can also do a histogram-style, where you don't record duplicate scripts | 10:42 |
| kjskjskjs | yeah | 10:42 |
| kanzure | you know, the simplest implementation that i can think of would be sqlalchemy + sqlite or something, and then just iterate from there | 10:42 |
| justanotheruser | kjskjskjs: yeah, I will probably just end up doing that hack for now | 10:42 |
| kanzure | it wont have fancy search features beyond sql querying, but that doesn't sound problematic | 10:42 |
| justanotheruser | It likely wont always be true that 99% of scripts are of that form | 10:43 |
| kanzure | there's even a bitcoin sqlalchemy module somewhere that has common bitcoin structures that you can readily use with sqlalchemy | 10:43 |
| kanzure | 99% of all scripts are just pay to sighash or whatever | 10:43 |
| kanzure | and storing a billion of those is stupid | 10:43 |
| nmz787_i | won't any-sql add overhead, for something like this you seem to just want a sliding search window over all the data | 10:43 |
| justanotheruser | kanzure: yeah, I probably should just store their pubkey and pubkey hash | 10:43 |
| kanzure | well he wants querying or something | 10:43 |
| kanzure | and implementing your own query engine is dumb | 10:44 |
| kjskjskjs | nmz787_i: it will add overhead but probably not enough to make a difference for only 10 million | 10:44 |
| kjskjskjs | no, implementing your own query engine is not a big deal | 10:44 |
| nmz787_i | so store the results in the db, not the raw data | 10:44 |
| kanzure | sqlite can easily fit in memory with sqlite://:memory: in sqlalchemy | 10:44 |
| nmz787_i | since the raw data has no structure other than as a vector | 10:44 |
| kanzure | raw data does have a structure | 10:44 |
| kanzure | (in this case) | 10:44 |
| fenn | there is a sequence of opcodes | 10:45 |
| kanzure | and params | 10:45 |
| nmz787_i | i heard 'script' which seems like a sequence of 0s and 1s | 10:45 |
| fenn | yeah well this irc channel is a sequence of 0s and 1s | 10:45 |
| nmz787_i | the channel itself, yes, but the viewer programs are separate streams | 10:46 |
| justanotheruser | kanzure: you sure it's that dumb to make my own query engine? | 10:47 |
| kanzure | you should make up some example queries that you want to ru nfirst | 10:47 |
| kanzure | then evaluate that against what each implementation gives you | 10:47 |
| kanzure | then you can decide to make your own or not | 10:47 |
| kanzure | but defaulting to making your own... pfft. | 10:47 |
| fenn | this whole conversation seems like premature optimization anyway | 10:48 |
| justanotheruser | kanzure: good call. | 10:48 |
| justanotheruser | it will be a pain to test all of these though since I need to copy all this blockchain data | 10:48 |
| kanzure | here are some things that might be useful https://github.com/monetizeio/sqlalchemy-bitcoin | 10:48 |
| justanotheruser | I think I might just mentally test it | 10:48 |
| justanotheruser | see if my algorithm would be efficient | 10:49 |
| kanzure | https://github.com/monetizeio/sqlalchemy-bitcoin/blob/master/sa_bitcoin/core.py | 10:49 |
| kanzure | https://github.com/monetizeio/sqlalchemy-bitcoin/blob/master/sa_bitcoin/ledger.py | 10:49 |
| kanzure | maaku: i see your name here | 10:49 |
| justanotheruser | neat, I can put scripts in the DB automatically | 10:50 |
| justanotheruser | still need to handle them specially though, which is why it seems doing it myself would be easier | 10:50 |
| kanzure | petertodd/python-bitcoinlib already parses script pretty well, i highly recommend plugging his CScript implementation in with sqlalchemy-bitcoin stuff | 10:51 |
| justanotheruser | if I'm going to query the for p2pk, then I need to index pubkeys and pubkey hashes | 10:51 |
| justanotheruser | kanzure: yeah, already was planning on using that | 10:51 |
| justanotheruser | would be a pain reimplementing all that for each opcode | 10:51 |
| kanzure | 10:47 <+deltab> "Experience historically accurate terrain collision rendering." — https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5pfgMS3nDn4 | 10:52 |
| justanotheruser | ok, thx for the help | 10:52 |
| * justanotheruser vanishes | 10:52 | |
| kanzure | wizard evidence | 10:53 |
| fenn | poof | 10:55 |
| fenn | i still dont get the focus on querying and databases if the whole point of the exercise is data science/exploration | 10:56 |
| kanzure | he wants to be able to do things like "find me every script that has this op code followed by this other one" | 10:56 |
| kanzure | or "find me all scripts that are invalid" | 10:56 |
| fenn | uh.. | 10:56 |
| kanzure | ... i assume. | 10:57 |
| fenn | isnt that basically the halting problem | 10:57 |
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| fenn | hm no loops | 10:58 |
| kanzure | hehe | 10:59 |
| fenn | lisp has no loops but it's trivial to construct one | 10:59 |
| kanzure | there are also limits on how long a script can execute or how many ops | 10:59 |
| kanzure | ask in #bitcoin-wizards or #bitcoin-dev | 11:00 |
| maaku | kanzure: I wrote it, although right now it is pre-blockstream abandonware | 11:00 |
| fenn | there's too much to learn bitcoin before i can ask a decent question | 11:00 |
| maaku | happy to entertain questions about it or pull request | 11:00 |
| fenn | about bitcoin* | 11:00 |
| kanzure | maaku: abandonware because it is borked or abandonware because limited time | 11:00 |
| archels | paperbot: http://link.springer.com/chapter/10.1007/978-1-4615-0039-1_15?no-access=true | 11:01 |
| maaku | limited time + no longer doing the project which necessitated its existence in the first place | 11:01 |
| archels | ?no-access=true lol | 11:01 |
| paperbot | http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/paperbot/430b0ce28ae82bd792044c3bfb8d300c.txt | 11:01 |
| kanzure | maaku: cool. i'll probably use it eventually, nice to have sqlalchemy stuff available. | 11:01 |
| kanzure | fenn: yes, that's a big problem, but i dunno how to solve it... "sorry, but yes there are multiple components." | 11:02 |
| maaku | nothing wrong with it although there may be a few undocumented warts. it certainly wasn't up to my "release-ready" standards when I stopped working on it | 11:02 |
| archels | paperbot: http://link.springer.com/content/pdf/10.1007%2F978-1-4615-0039-1_15.pdf | 11:02 |
| paperbot | XMLSyntaxError: None (file "/srv/ikiwiki/paperbot/modules/papers.py", line 524, in parse_html) | 11:02 |
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| archels | well, frack | 11:02 |
| fenn | http://www.frackingfacts.com.au/blog/wp-content/uploads/2011/06/noFrack.jpg | 11:04 |
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| kanzure | fenn: if it makes you feel better there's basically only ten people that understand bitcoin | 11:13 |
| fenn | and half of them are fictional? | 11:17 |
| kanzure | i mean, if nobody reads papers anymore, how many people do you think also read code and papers | 11:18 |
| kanzure | this isn't like linux where you have 10,000 people that already understand kernels floating around your society | 11:18 |
| fenn | i still dont see anything wrong with my suggestion above about how to do queries... it seems like there's a fair amount of research on indexing bitmaps https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bitmap_index | 11:19 |
| kanzure | literally everyone had to learn by reading the source code, because that was all that was produced | 11:19 |
| kanzure | oh, i don't think i said there was anything wrong with that idea? | 11:19 |
| fenn | kjskjskjs didnt like it because "you'd have to iterate over every entry" but you have to do that anyway in order to parse the data in the first place | 11:19 |
| kanzure | i just can't imagine the exact implementation | 11:20 |
| kanzure | i would have to do work or something | 11:20 |
| fenn | i probably misunderstood the problem he was trying to solve in the first place | 11:20 |
| kanzure | well, i assume the problem is something like: | 11:22 |
| kanzure | "here is a bunch of possibly cool data, what are typical analysis things i should be doing with it and how" | 11:23 |
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| fenn | ok so where does database queries enter into that | 11:23 |
| fenn | k-means would be a good place to start | 11:24 |
| fenn | markov modeling maybe | 11:24 |
| fenn | there are a zillion ways to slice large data sets | 11:24 |
| kanzure | also there's some static analysis (erm, w.r.t code/software) aspects to this | 11:25 |
| kanzure | queries over code, was what i was thinking.. | 11:25 |
| fenn | bayesian filters | 11:26 |
| kanzure | hm? | 11:26 |
| fenn | as a way of sorting through large quantities of irrelevant data | 11:26 |
| kanzure | (brb) | 11:26 |
| fenn | https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bayesian_spam_filtering | 11:27 |
| kanzure | applied to source code? | 11:27 |
| fenn | sure why not | 11:27 |
| kanzure | what would that look like? | 11:27 |
| kanzure | (brb4realz) | 11:27 |
| fenn | in this case you'd be prejudiced against things that look like "<somebytes> <somebytes> OP_DUP OP_HASH160 <somebytes> OP_EQUALVERIFY OP_CHECKSIG" | 11:30 |
| fenn | (not that i have any idea what that means) | 11:30 |
| fenn | you can use bayes filtering to sort things into multiple bins too, not just spam/nospam | 11:32 |
| chris_99 | dumb question, why do different transactions need to do different things, via scripts | 11:32 |
| fenn | because they're the basis for contracts | 11:33 |
| chris_99 | oh i didn't know it could do that kind of stuff just looking at the wiki on that thanks | 11:34 |
| fenn | say you want to sell a car on a different continent, how do both parties ensure that they dont get screwed? the traditional solution is to send both money and keys to an escrow service | 11:34 |
| chris_99 | i never noticed anything to do this kind of stuff in the btc client i used, but it's been a long time | 11:35 |
| fenn | with smart contracts, the keys don't work unless the money has been exchanged, and the money doesnt work unless the keys have been received | 11:35 |
| chris_99 | nice | 11:35 |
| fenn | i havent been following bitcoin much, but it seems like a set of possible enhancements rather than a 1.0 feature | 11:36 |
| fenn | there is also stuff like multiple signatures required to transfer money, so if you get hacked your bank wont send money, or if your bank gets hacked they wont send money (word "bank" being used loosely) | 11:37 |
| chris_99 | clever | 11:39 |
| kanzure | some of those things are in the bitcoin client and others are not | 11:41 |
| kanzure | pay-to-script-hash for example works (the addresses start with '3' or 'm' on testnet or something) | 11:41 |
| kanzure | and it just looks like you're paying a funny looking address | 11:41 |
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| chris_99 | ah | 11:46 |
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| fenn | so do miners actually run the scripts to see if they're valid? | 11:48 |
| kanzure | yes | 11:48 |
| kanzure | every bitcoin node runs the scripts | 11:48 |
| kanzure | petertodd even implemented a python version in python-bitcoinlib called VerifyScript | 11:48 |
| fenn | not every node? just the ones that are verifying that block, right? | 11:49 |
| kanzure | even the blocks are verified by nodes | 11:49 |
| kanzure | now, there are some bitcoin software implementation things that do not do any verification- these are usually called "spv" for some reason | 11:49 |
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| kanzure | (however, bitcoind.git does not implement that) | 11:49 |
| kanzure | (actually it might; that may have been in a recent pull request that i saw? it's a config option maybe. and it's definitely not enabled by default.) | 11:49 |
| fenn | guh. true/false: every node verifies every block | 11:50 |
| kanzure | well what the fuck is a node | 11:50 |
| kanzure | it's sort of like asking "everything that uses the bittorrent protocol does everything the official implementation does?" | 11:51 |
| fenn | this is only part of why i'm confused | 11:51 |
| kanzure | anyone can write some software that does not verify every block in the blockchain | 11:52 |
| kanzure | however, this is dangerous because you can be mitm'ed much more easily | 11:52 |
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| kanzure | everyone that deploys bitcoind by default with no config changes will be veryifying every transaction that they see from the p2p network, including every transaction in every block | 11:53 |
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| fenn | and that actually scales? | 11:54 |
| kanzure | https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Scalability | 11:54 |
| fenn | why cant they just use multiple blockchains | 11:55 |
| kanzure | if your balance is on one blockchain (like the dogecoin blockchain) and i want to receive on the other, how do you communicate that to your users | 11:55 |
| kanzure | or to your payees/payers or w/e | 11:56 |
| kanzure | there are other reasons why multiple blockchains are a bad idea, related to security and mining hashrate | 11:58 |
| kanzure | (and then less strong reasons like "well nobody understands the first one, and you want to start a second secured only by your own lack of understanding?") | 11:58 |
| fenn | great | 11:59 |
| fenn | i guess i had this fantasy that there were all these smart crypto people out there who actually understood all this | 11:59 |
| kanzure | there's a small group that is growing at a very slow rate | 11:59 |
| kanzure | and all of their knowledge comes from "reading the bitcoin source code" basically | 12:00 |
| fenn | so all this microtransaction $0.0001 per gif viewed crap is basically impossible with current bitcoin protocol | 12:01 |
| kanzure | tx fee might have to be pretty high to get the transaction picked up | 12:01 |
| nmz787_i | back to real news: http://www.independent.co.uk/life-style/health-and-families/health-news/british-doctors-on-brink-of-cure-for-paralysis-9807010.html | 12:02 |
| kanzure | unfortunately it is hard to determine what is real or not in the news | 12:02 |
| fenn | speaking of news, apparently someone shot up the canadian parliament | 12:02 |
| kanzure | 12:03 < nsh> "There are trade-offs between scalability and decentralisation. For example, a larger block size would allow the network to support a higher transaction rate, at the cost of placing more work on validators — a centralisation risk." -- is it worth elaborating on how this leads to centralization? | 12:04 |
| nmz787_i | i saw that too | 12:04 |
| kanzure | 12:03 < sipa> if fewer people can validate, validation becomes more centralized. | 12:04 |
| kanzure | 12:03 < sipa> any question? :0 | 12:04 |
| fenn | i just think its crazy to have everyone validating every transaction | 12:06 |
| kanzure | go tell #bitcoin-wizards | 12:07 |
| kanzure | they are fun to talk with too | 12:07 |
| kanzure | and nsh is there so he has your back i guess | 12:07 |
| kanzure | 12:07 < nsh> so the degree of centralization depends on the tail of resource-availability or usability of the cadre of potential validating participants | 12:07 |
| fenn | wait, what time is it now? | 12:08 |
| kanzure | i don't know man | 12:08 |
| kanzure | fuck time? | 12:08 |
| fenn | did nsh just say that? | 12:08 |
| kanzure | yes | 12:08 |
| nsh | had you asked already? | 12:09 |
| nsh | didn't see | 12:09 |
| nmz787_i | why is it crazy to have everyone validate everything? | 12:09 |
| kanzure | and approximately how crazy on a log scale | 12:11 |
| fenn | because it's an O(N^2) algorithm | 12:18 |
| kanzure | also, log context http://gnusha.org/bitcoin-wizards/2014-10-22.log | 12:19 |
| nmz787_i | fenn: but like, so what, you either fear getting ripped off, or spend some watts making sure that doesn't happen. this is why we invented computers. | 12:24 |
| maaku | fenn: ideally full nodes should not be running scripts. that is crazy. they should validating execution traces of scripts (which is cheaper!) | 12:27 |
| fenn | not if you have to download a gigabyte of data and you're in subsaharan africa with a cellphone | 12:27 |
| maaku | but that' snot how bitcoin works | 12:27 |
| maaku | fenn: i don' tthink your scaling numbers are right though | 12:28 |
| fenn | maaku: it seems like the sheer number of transactions would still not scale even with no scripts | 12:28 |
| maaku | script validation is O(n) with script size | 12:28 |
| fenn | transaction validation is O((n/2)^2) with n transactions | 12:29 |
| kanzure | you're both in wizards this is silly | 12:29 |
| maaku | oh well that's a complaint against bitcoin. having a distributed consensus where N people validate M transactions scales as O(N*M) | 12:29 |
| maaku | so don't use bitcoin. that's the cost | 12:29 |
| kanzure | there are many bitcoin software thingies that do *not* validate all transactions. | 12:29 |
| nmz787_i | what maaku said | 12:29 |
| fenn | er, yes you were right O(N*M) | 12:29 |
| maaku | kanzure: only becaues miner *do* validate | 12:30 |
| nmz787_i | if bitcoin sucks, find a patch | 12:30 |
| fenn | guh i dont even know what bitcoin is | 12:30 |
| maaku | nmz787_i: not quite, this isn't something you can fix | 12:30 |
| maaku | well, not without SNARK magic that doesn't exist yet | 12:30 |
| nmz787_i | well then in that case, deal with the overhead of not getting ripped off in transactions | 12:30 |
| fenn | nmz787_i: currently, as i understand it, "validate everything" is equivalent to "only validate my transaction", and you should be able to only validate a subset of transactions | 12:33 |
| maaku | but yeah, the true cost of a bitcoin transaction is something like $20-$40 | 12:33 |
| fenn | what! | 12:33 |
| maaku | but because of subsidies most people don't know that | 12:33 |
| kanzure | the "true" cost also has to include things like forever storage costs i think | 12:33 |
| fenn | the reptilians from sirius B must be pumping some serious intergalactic cash into this | 12:33 |
| kanzure | sirius-m hasn't been committing in a while i don't know what you're talking about | 12:34 |
| maaku | 25btc every 10 minutes, and it's hard to fit more than a thousand or so transactions in a block. do the math on that | 12:34 |
| maaku | well ok, $10. price has declined | 12:34 |
| maaku | kanzure: true | 12:34 |
| kanzure | it's also hard to calculate what the real value of a non-centralized ledger is supposed to be | 12:35 |
| fenn | it's hard to calculate any value | 12:35 |
| kanzure | so nobody knows if $10-$40 is too much or too low or what | 12:35 |
| fenn | a glass of water is priceless if you're dying of thirst | 12:35 |
| maaku | eh it's not the centralization that's important, it is the trustlessness. the promise of smart contracts that can't be revoked by fiat | 12:36 |
| fenn | what exactly is the promise of smart contracts? | 12:36 |
| maaku | fenn: making contracts enforced by the universe instead of courts and guns | 12:37 |
| kanzure | just to be snarky.... but courts and guns are part of the universe. | 12:38 |
| fenn | so the promise is we can get rid of governments and still have law? | 12:38 |
| fenn | or some kinds of law at least | 12:38 |
| maaku | which i'm sorry is so abstract, but it promises huge efficiencies (eliminating double-digit percentages of global GDP that is wasted), plus anti-corruption by being able to restrict what is done with money, etc. | 12:39 |
| fenn | so you can buy porn on ebay? | 12:39 |
| maaku | and democratizing contracts to the poorest people | 12:39 |
| fenn | (what restrictions on what is done with money are you upset with currently?) | 12:40 |
| maaku | right now if you are poor and put in the position of needing to exchange with someone rich, the power dynamic ensures that many times you're screwed with no recourse | 12:40 |
| maaku | a smart contract, on the other hand, doesn't care who you are. it executes according to its script irregardless | 12:40 |
| fenn | the being screwed is mostly due to lack of choice and market monopolies | 12:41 |
| fenn | any corruption involved is usually supported by law in the first place | 12:41 |
| maaku | fenn: I'm getting at why there are no choices, and why being a monopolist is a position of power | 12:41 |
| kanzure | maaku: i really appreciate your thermodyamics-based explanation of proof-of-work and consensus sets, and i am going to be stealing it for the rest of forever. | 12:44 |
| maaku | :) | 12:47 |
| fenn | if verizon locks me into a "smart contract" with lousy terms, how is that any better than the current situation? | 12:49 |
| maaku | fenn: the important point is that with a smart contract they can't change the terms on you later, or pay off someone to interpret the terms in their favor, etc. | 12:51 |
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| maaku | there is still a lot of work to be done to make sure that users have tools to inform them of the implications of a smart contract before they sign it | 12:51 |
| fenn | so the benefits are just that it's specified in a formal language with unabiguous interpretation? | 12:51 |
| maaku | right, that's it really | 12:52 |
| maaku | -but- i will claim that the implications of that simple difference are huge | 12:52 |
| maaku | but of course if I didn't feel that way I wouldn't be a full time bitcoin developer :P | 12:53 |
| maaku | kanzure: so on that theme and in line with the topic of this channel, one way of interpreting bitcoin is similar to a nanny AGI | 12:53 |
| maaku | the nanny AGI is omnipotent, but only uses that power to enforce various constraints | 12:54 |
| maaku | bitcoin effectively does the same: it is a construction that makes the universe enforce particular constraints about transaction validity and revokation | 12:55 |
| fenn | i am trying to find something jmc (of lisp fame) wrote about formalized legal systems (basically a robot judge) | 12:55 |
| maaku | due to the connection between proof-of-work and the entropy law | 12:56 |
| fenn | it was somewhere around here http://www-formal.stanford.edu/jmc/elephant/elephant.html | 12:59 |
| * justanotheruser appears out of nowhere | 13:00 | |
| fenn | anyway this sounded sort of relevant "Programs that engage in commercial transactions assume obligations on behalf of their owners in exchange for obligations assumed by other entities. It may be part of the specifications of an Elephant 2000 programs that these obligations are exchanged as intended, and this too can be expressed by a logical sentence." | 13:00 |
| maaku | nick szabo has done a lot of work in this area. you can start on his stuff here : http://szabo.best.vwh.net/smart_contracts_idea.html | 13:01 |
| maaku | further links at the bottom | 13:01 |
| maaku | fenn: right so there are engineering reasons why a higher level language like elephant is probably not a good choice for the protocol level, but the idea is similar | 13:02 |
| fenn | sure, i was thinking of it like C and assembly | 13:03 |
| maaku | right | 13:03 |
| fenn | elephant gets compiled to bitcoin_script or whatever its called | 13:03 |
| maaku | right, so another language in that area is E by Mark Miller : http://www.erights.org/ | 13:04 |
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| kanzure | maaku: instead of nanny agi i have been saying anti-replay oracle | 13:06 |
| fenn | it wouldnt (and shouldnt) be a general intelligence anyway | 13:08 |
| fenn | or you're back where we started with judges and corruptability | 13:08 |
| fenn | find me one person in the world who knows what's legal or not legal | 13:09 |
| maaku | fenn: side issue. a fully general AI can have a strictly unchanging goal set. | 13:13 |
| maaku | kanzure: eh, nanny AGI is a bit broader than that. e.g. the source of magic in HPMoR is (I speculate) something akin to a nanny AGI enforcing programmable conditions | 13:14 |
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| maaku | (with Merlin having basically programmed in the operating system that contains charms, etc. as programs) | 13:15 |
| paperlooker | paperbot: http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/pbr.12190/pdf | 13:15 |
| paperlooker | paperboooot do your thing | 13:15 |
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| maaku | maybe nanny AGI isn't the right word, i'd be curious if you can suggest something better | 13:15 |
| paperlooker | paperbot: http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/pbr.12190/full | 13:15 |
| paperlooker | T_T | 13:16 |
| paperlooker | kanzure: ? | 13:16 |
| paperbot | http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/paperbot/64a723ca996d95a9fef285cf027d695.txt | 13:16 |
| kanzure | maaku: i saw a lamport paper recently that suggested that every node hsould simulate a "virtual leader" that does the correct thing, instead of an actual leader. | 13:18 |
| paperbot | http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/paperbot/8e2dc82d65c69cd716d80b3198a9a340.txt | 13:19 |
| paperlooker | paperbot: http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/enhanced/doi/10.1111/pbr.12190/ | 13:19 |
| kanzure | unfortunately paperbot is not omnipotent | 13:19 |
| * paperlooker is sad about that | 13:19 | |
| paperlooker | I worship paperbot | 13:20 |
| nmz787_i | just watched this https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sKOlfR5OcB4#t=2202 | 13:20 |
| nmz787_i | .title | 13:20 |
| yoleaux | Alfred Leitner - Liquid Helium II the Superfluid - YouTube | 13:20 |
| paperbot | http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/paperbot/cc2832407347eda545b7b9c1e9cc598f.txt | 13:21 |
| nmz787_i | paperbot: http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/pbr.12190/pdf | 13:21 |
| kanzure | you should check the .txt file to see if it is an access issue or a parser issue | 13:22 |
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| paperbot | http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/paperbot/79ab9636eb86d0418073ba5810cee394.txt | 13:23 |
| nmz787_i | paperbot: http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/store/10.1111/pbr.12190/asset/pbr12190.pdf | 13:25 |
| paperbot | http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/paperbot/36b05a58c8a64e2ade7f33aff3c882b6.txt | 13:25 |
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| paperlooker | kanzure: FYI, it did work. the page loads dynamically with javascript so you have to find a .pdf within the text/html spew | 13:34 |
| * paperlooker rolls eyes | 13:34 | |
| kanzure | hm? | 13:40 |
| kanzure | paperbot spews a .txt file when it can't access a .pdf | 13:40 |
| kanzure | .title http://dangerousprototypes.com/?p=83950 | 13:42 |
| yoleaux | Update on CERN’s investment in KiCAD | Dangerous Prototypes | 13:42 |
| paperlooker | yea, but the link to the pdf I wanted was within | 13:43 |
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| kanzure | paperbot doesn't get *links* to pdfs, it gets the actual pdfs | 13:44 |
| kanzure | or at least attempts to | 13:44 |
| nmz787_i | if that pdf link worked for you, you didn't need paperbot | 13:44 |
| kanzure | yeah | 13:44 |
| justanotheruser | lol | 13:45 |
| fenn | should i read "true names"? | 13:45 |
| kanzure | link | 13:46 |
| fenn | https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/True_Names http://fennetic.net/irc/true_names.pdf | 13:47 |
| superkuh | If you're looking for cyberpunk fiction I just finished Raphael Carter's "The Fortunate Fall" and it was fairly good. It played up the "if you die in the matrix you die in real life" bit but overall the setting (censorship dystopia) and prose were worth it. Rare in a cyberpunk story. | 13:47 |
| paperlooker | nah, I did. the "*.pdf" one it returned was a html spew but there was a link to the appropriate pdf contained within | 13:48 |
| kanzure | fenn: yes i think we have been lacking on vernor vinge in general for a while now | 13:49 |
| kanzure | so someone should pick up this slack | 13:49 |
| drethelin | the last thing he wrote was a lame sequel to a fire upon the deep right | 13:49 |
| fenn | sequel to a deepness in the sky i think | 13:49 |
| kanzure | was the rainbow thing him or was that stross? | 13:50 |
| fenn | rainbows end was him (AR meets evil AI meets biotech) | 13:50 |
| paperlooker | -_- | 13:50 |
| fenn | or at least "AI with questionable motives" | 13:50 |
| paperlooker | rainbows end was a poor book | 13:50 |
| superkuh | Unrelated: I feel like half the existing Chinese optical crystal websites are just fronts for a single company. The html tables and english wording are exactly the same. They just slap a different header and company name above it. | 13:50 |
| fenn | it wasnt so much a book as a technology proposal | 13:51 |
| kanzure | i was not impressed with a deepness in the sky when i was 12, but i think the interweb is telling me a fire upon the deep is the proper one to read | 13:51 |
| kanzure | superkuh: i have been collecting some china spam for a while now. eventually i will package this up into a .mbox or .zip but it confirms your observations. | 13:51 |
| fenn | i was not impressed with a fire upon the deep when i was .. well, not much younger than i am now | 13:51 |
| kanzure | the emails are all from companies like "Quanghing Xian Technology Corporation Company Ltd. LLC, Shanghai Development Zone, Dalian, Liaoning, China" | 13:52 |
| fenn | i liked the tines world | 13:53 |
| kanzure | "Shanghai Yancui Import And Export Co., Ltd" | 13:54 |
| kanzure | "SuZhou Transtone Auto Parts Co.,Ltd"" | 13:54 |
| superkuh | "Shanghai Daheng Optics and Fine Mechanics Co.,LTD." | 13:55 |
| fenn | oh no wonder i'm getting them mixed up. "Vinge's novel, A Deepness in the Sky (1999), is a prequel to A Fire Upon the Deep set 20,000 years earlier and featuring Pham Nuwen. Vinge's The Children of the Sky, "a near-term sequel to A Fire Upon the Deep", set ten years later" | 13:55 |
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| kanzure | a fire upon the deep is the one that wei dai really likes | 13:56 |
| kanzure | and happens to be the one that wasn't on my dad's bookshelf so that's how i ended up with the crap ones | 13:57 |
| fenn | i guess i just wasnt that impressed with his presentation of the blight | 13:58 |
| fenn | compared to, say, 3340 in ventus | 13:58 |
| fenn | the internet: a vasty deep of broken links and spontaneous time warps | 14:03 |
| * fenn summons the demon spirit of ted nelson | 14:04 | |
| kanzure | it's too bad that science fiction hasn't really caught up to stuff. | 14:04 |
| kanzure | i don't have time to write their scifi, that's their job | 14:04 |
| superkuh | arxiv has the best scifi. | 14:05 |
| kanzure | .g site:arxiv.org "Greg Egan" | 14:06 |
| drethelin | I liked rainbows end | 14:06 |
| yoleaux | http://arxiv.org/abs/gr-qc/0208010 | 14:06 |
| kanzure | .title | 14:06 |
| yoleaux | [gr-qc/0208010] Asymptotics of 10j symbols | 14:06 |
| drethelin | like it had no good cfharacters | 14:06 |
| drethelin | but I still enjoyed it | 14:06 |
| fenn | it was intended to be played as an alternate reality game on the san diego campus | 14:07 |
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| superkuh | The Benford brothers "Gregory (scifi author) and James" are have a bit on there. | 14:08 |
| superkuh | But the funniest I've run across is, http://arxiv.org/abs/1204.0526 | 14:09 |
| kanzure | i ran into gregory benford once over at some conference when he was pimping for genescient i think | 14:09 |
| fenn | yeah herbal tinctures to recompile your DNA, uh huh | 14:10 |
| fenn | they seem to have buried that product/research | 14:11 |
| nmz787_i | chemo recompiles yer dna, sort of | 14:12 |
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| fenn | superkuh: is that an april fools joke? it's not funny and it sounds perfectly reasonable except for the "telescopes such as myself" bit | 14:15 |
| superkuh | Keep reading. | 14:15 |
| superkuh | And yes, a great april fools joke. | 14:16 |
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| kanzure | http://techcrunch.com/2014/10/22/sosventures-takes-on-y-combinator-with-a-pure-biotech-accelerator/ | 14:29 |
| kanzure | haha "yes we're exactly like ycombinator with none of the lessons about software and growth" | 14:30 |
| kanzure | "Also of note, IndieBio is acquiring Berkeley BioLabs and bringing in Ryan Bethencourt" | 14:31 |
| kanzure | ah that's news.. | 14:31 |
| fenn | Warning | 14:34 |
| fenn | Some browsers may have trouble displaying this image at full resolution: This image has a large number of pixels and may either not load properly or cause your browser to freeze. | 14:34 |
| fenn | https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:VISTA%E2%80%99s_infrared_view_of_the_Orion_Nebula.jpg | 14:34 |
| nmz787 | www.minimetalmaker.com/technology | 14:50 |
| nmz787 | .title | 14:50 |
| yoleaux | Technology of the Mini Metal Maker | http://minimetalmaker.com | 14:50 |
| nmz787 | blah | 14:50 |
| nmz787 | justanotheruser: re: last night (for me at least) talk on bitcoin paper... I said I was relatively a newb to an expert, then you replied nmz787: but as you said, that shouldn't matter | 14:53 |
| justanotheruser | indeed | 14:53 |
| nmz787 | justanotheruser: but originally I was saying that a non-expert wouldn't be able to feasibilt evaluate the work of an expert when it comes to details | 14:53 |
| justanotheruser | I thought you said 02:53 < nmz787> that seems like an issue with the reader, that their fact/non-fact processing isn't robust enough to check or make note of thinks they don't understand, for someone else to check | 14:54 |
| nmz787 | yes | 14:54 |
| nmz787 | so it is a personal issue that i lack knowledge to evaluate the paper | 14:54 |
| justanotheruser | nmz787: however you would likely be able to read it and understand the message | 14:55 |
| nmz787 | it's not the paper's fault... 'it's math's fault' | 14:55 |
| justanotheruser | wat? | 14:55 |
| nmz787 | there's a reason math is a bachelors and masters and phd level degree | 14:55 |
| nmz787 | it's non-trivial | 14:56 |
| nmz787 | especially when you're talking about security and looking for sidechannels | 14:56 |
| justanotheruser | yeah? | 14:57 |
| justanotheruser | My original question was just how often such papers slipped by | 14:57 |
| kanzure | a lot of papers are crap | 14:58 |
| kanzure | the vast majority of papers are terrible | 14:58 |
| nmz787 | how many math nerds are there relative to non-math nerds, or people who don't like math at all | 14:58 |
| nmz787 | (very few math nerds relative to population at large) | 14:59 |
| fenn | over nine thousandth | 14:59 |
| kanzure | fenn: ever feel like the world is just a giant gish gallop attack against you | 15:00 |
| fenn | .wik gish gallop | 15:01 |
| yoleaux | "Duane Tolbert Gish (February 17, 1921 – March 5, 2013) was an American biochemist and a prominent member of the creationist movement. A Young Earth creationist, Gish was a former vice-president of the Institute for Creation Research (ICR) and the author of numerous publications about creation science. Gish was called "creationism's T. H." — http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gish_gallop | 15:01 |
| fenn | sorry i'm all out of tabs | 15:01 |
| kanzure | http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Gish_Gallop | 15:01 |
| kanzure | "The Gish Gallop is the debating technique of drowning the opponent in such a torrent of small arguments that their opponent cannot possibly answer or address each one in real time. More often than not, these myriad arguments are full of half-truths, lies, and straw-man arguments — the only condition is that there be many of them, not that they be particularly compelling on their own. They may be escape hatches or "gotcha" arguments that ... | 15:02 |
| kanzure | ... are specifically designed to be brief, but take a long time to unravel. Thus, galloping is frequently used in timed debates (especially by creationists) to overwhelm one's opponent." | 15:02 |
| nmz787 | duh | 15:02 |
| nmz787 | complex answers take time to explain to people not in the know | 15:02 |
| kanzure | there's really nothing that is particularly complex | 15:03 |
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| fenn | i disagree, there are lots of things that are humongously complex and nobody understands them | 15:03 |
| fenn | there are also plenty of things that are quite simple and elegant but for unknown reasons have been massacred over and over again until nobody knows wtf they are talking about | 15:04 |
| fenn | like quantum mechanics for example | 15:04 |
| maaku | i understand quantum mechanics | 15:04 |
| kanzure | he wasn't using quantum mechanics as an example of complex | 15:05 |
| fenn | please dont be offended if i dont take your word for it | 15:05 |
| maaku | the problem is most physics professors don't understand quantum mechanics, because there's this culture that developed in which it was considered smart, even wise to label it as 'mysterious' and stop thinking | 15:05 |
| fenn | things that are complex: the brain, the economy, the immune system | 15:05 |
| maaku | (physics degree here, partly left physics for comp sci because i was disgusted with this phenomenon) | 15:06 |
| fenn | i'm hoping garrett lisi's theory turns out to be true (or at least 'valid') | 15:06 |
| kanzure | look on the bright side, you are still capable of experiencing disgust | 15:06 |
| fenn | then at least physics will be more than just a pile of observations | 15:07 |
| maaku | heh | 15:07 |
| nmz787 | kanzure: also modelling that disgust with comp sci! | 15:08 |
| nmz787 | we have a winner | 15:08 |
| justanotheruser | kanzure: have you intentionally been recruiting bitcoin devs into here? | 15:08 |
| nmz787 | they should be called something better, like trustbit | 15:09 |
| kanzure | justanotheruser: nope | 15:09 |
| nmz787 | or safebit | 15:09 |
| nmz787 | bithappy | 15:09 |
| kanzure | justanotheruser: they just don't completely hate me | 15:09 |
| fenn | they're taking over, we never even talk about transhumanism anymore | 15:09 |
| nmz787 | but not funbut | 15:09 |
| kanzure | i have benefits like email and bookmarks | 15:09 |
| nmz787 | funbit | 15:10 |
| kanzure | and paperbot | 15:10 |
| nmz787 | we should just store paperbot in the blockchain | 15:10 |
| justanotheruser | yeah. If only there was a channel with paperbot but no kanzure /s | 15:10 |
| maaku | i was into transhumanism before bitcoin :) | 15:10 |
| kanzure | we tried that but it turns out i'm the only one doing anything in here | 15:10 |
| nmz787 | and have the propagtion delay serve as a delay loop | 15:10 |
| nmz787 | to get computation cycles | 15:10 |
| nmz787 | or something | 15:10 |
| fenn | we should just implement paperbot on a negative time delay switches, then he can fetch papers from the future | 15:11 |
| nmz787 | psh | 15:11 |
| nmz787 | i am doing micro/nanoscopy and fab shit | 15:11 |
| kanzure | yes but you're increasingly proprietary-only and that will eventually get inconvenient for me | 15:12 |
| kanzure | and anyone else in here. | 15:12 |
| nmz787 | devs take time to release shit for OS | 15:12 |
| fenn | whats the point then | 15:12 |
| fenn | open source is not a dumping grounds | 15:12 |
| kanzure | correct. | 15:13 |
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| nmz787 | by shit i meant stuff | 15:13 |
| fenn | by stuff you meant "finished" software | 15:13 |
| nmz787 | did 'satoshi' release half-implemented code or papers or whatever? | 15:14 |
| kanzure | yes | 15:14 |
| kanzure | that's why bitcoin is so broken | 15:14 |
| nmz787 | well who did he have to compete with anyway | 15:14 |
| nmz787 | ah | 15:14 |
| kanzure | all the other p2p currency ideas at the time | 15:14 |
| kanzure | that's why 2 days after his release i shitted all over it | 15:14 |
| kanzure | "your software is fucking shit and i hate you" | 15:14 |
| fenn | it's great they let people use it when they're done, but a) they lose the advantages of open source development, and b) there's no community built around it | 15:14 |
| kanzure | an open source strategy is actually pretty nuanced, it's not just "throw it over the wall" | 15:15 |
| fenn | if it werent for marc fawzi i would probably be a millionaire now | 15:15 |
| * fenn shrugs | 15:15 | |
| kanzure | i should sue him | 15:15 |
| kanzure | hah | 15:15 |
| kanzure | mental distress | 15:15 |
| kanzure | and .. stuff. | 15:15 |
| fenn | hire a palestinian to blow up his house :P | 15:15 |
| fenn | naw its just that he completely turned me off of virtual currencies | 15:15 |
| kanzure | it was pretty endless | 15:16 |
| justanotheruser | I feel like every time I argue with PoS people it becomes some petty subargument about how miners having the risk of DoS is a much smaller risk than someone reverse engineering a program to attack it | 15:16 |
| kanzure | his emails were super long | 15:16 |
| kanzure | s/endless/relentless | 15:16 |
| kanzure | maaku: funny thing is that satoshi directly references marc fawzi in a few of his emails | 15:16 |
| nmz787 | joules are the new jewels | 15:17 |
| nmz787 | i'm telling you | 15:17 |
| kanzure | you were around for those emails? | 15:17 |
| kanzure | very early 2009? | 15:17 |
| nmz787 | me? | 15:18 |
| kanzure | yes | 15:19 |
| nmz787 | i existed | 15:19 |
| nmz787 | I knew about bitcoin via silkroad media mention | 15:19 |
| kanzure | at the time, marc fawzi was spamming open manufacturing with his p2p joule currency | 15:19 |
| nmz787 | huh | 15:19 |
| kanzure | which is the stuff satoshi referenced in his p2presearch emails | 15:19 |
| nmz787 | idk | 15:19 |
| kanzure | anyway i was banning him a few times etc | 15:19 |
| kanzure | typical "kanzure is an evil psychopath from the future" slurs were thrown around... | 15:20 |
| kanzure | https://groups.google.com/forum/#!msg/openmanufacturing/o_3Tp9mPaA4/Y_HuEb36rHUJ | 15:20 |
| fenn | to be fair it was completely off topic | 15:20 |
| kanzure | On Sun, 8 Feb 2009, Bryan Bishop wrote: | 15:20 |
| kanzure | > On Sun, Feb 8, 2009 at 9:15 PM, marc fawzi wrote: | 15:20 |
| kanzure | >> The two biggest dogmas present in current social theories are: | 15:20 |
| kanzure | > | 15:20 |
| kanzure | > Marc, could you please move this on to another mailing list now, maybe | 15:20 |
| kanzure | > the postscarcity mailing list, or even better, Michel's p2presearch | 15:20 |
| kanzure | > list? Since we've discussed these topics, and your P2P model, forever | 15:21 |
| nmz787 | my openamnufacturing archive dates to 3/2009 | 15:21 |
| kanzure | hahaha. go me! | 15:21 |
| kanzure | ah, so that may have been after | 15:23 |
| kanzure | but just barely | 15:23 |
| justanotheruser | kanzure: I see you in my inbox | 15:38 |
| justanotheruser | and I am now curious who this dsmurrel guy is | 15:38 |
| kanzure | just some spammer | 15:39 |
| kanzure | justanotheruser: http://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/2k070h/enabling_blockchain_innovations_with_pegged/clgokbf | 15:39 |
| justanotheruser | nevermind, based on the context I realized he was opencryptoreview | 15:39 |
| justanotheruser | his website is a good idea, he's just to spammy IMO | 15:40 |
| kanzure | right, independent of whether it's good/bad, he's too spammy | 15:40 |
| kanzure | also, there was once a time- if you can believe it- where it was unusual to /not/ see me in your inbox | 15:40 |
| justanotheruser | kanzure: what, you used to be a regular in the mailing list? | 15:41 |
| kanzure | not that particular mailing list | 15:41 |
| justanotheruser | well why would it be my inbox :P | 15:41 |
| kanzure | that's just how it worked, my email would find ways of getting to people | 15:41 |
| * justanotheruser crawls all transhumanism mailing lists for bryan | 15:41 | |
| justanotheruser | lol | 15:42 |
| justanotheruser | kanzure: how do you host diyhpl.us | 15:44 |
| jrayhawk_ | i throw servers at him | 15:45 |
| justanotheruser | I am tired of paying so much for ec2 | 15:45 |
| justanotheruser | you probably use s3 if you use aws though | 15:45 |
| kanzure | hmm someone posted this https://github.com/kanzure/bitcoin-incentives/issues/4 | 15:45 |
| kanzure | justanotheruser: i use aws, but i don't actually host anything on s3 except for the consulting stuff i do | 15:46 |
| kanzure | i mean, i use aws for commercial stuff. not personal stuff. | 15:46 |
| kanzure | i mean.. for commercial stuff for clients and customers. | 15:46 |
| justanotheruser | "Miners have incentives to reorganize the blockchain to change who gets transaction fees. They can do this without eroding trust by enforcing the same ordering of transactions." | 15:48 |
| justanotheruser | the anti-incentive of lost rewards are very high | 15:48 |
| kanzure | take it to -wizards, i don't want to proxy conversations between both channels | 15:49 |
| kanzure | (i just quoted from that page actually) | 15:49 |
| jrayhawk_ | dis- is the operative prefix | 15:49 |
| kanzure | in irc anyone can make up whatever words they please, from henceforth i shall deem these malincentives | 15:50 |
| kanzure | (kidding) | 15:50 |
| fenn | incensives | 15:55 |
| kanzure | "agitates into action or inaction" | 15:55 |
| kanzure | fenn did you look at the versum paper | 15:56 |
| kanzure | http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/bitcoin/VerSum:%20Verifiable%20computations%20over%20large%20public%20logs.pdf | 15:57 |
| justanotheruser | jrayhawk_: I anti-agree | 16:01 |
| jrayhawk_ | oh god | 16:01 |
| justanotheruser | lol | 16:02 |
| justanotheruser | jrayhawk_: what is the operative prefix of "scales of economy" | 16:02 |
| jrayhawk_ | while we're taking the english language out back and shooting it, i am going to go with unscales of economy | 16:05 |
| justanotheruser | really? | 16:05 |
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| kanzure | what about just "economic inefficiency" there? | 16:05 |
| justanotheruser | kanzure: doesn't cover that scales matters | 16:06 |
| justanotheruser | *matter | 16:06 |
| jrayhawk_ | "unscalability" is usually the term | 16:06 |
| justanotheruser | yeah, that makes sense | 16:07 |
| kanzure | so re: https://github.com/kanzure/bitcoin-incentives/issues/4 | 16:07 |
| kanzure | wait, no, wrong channel | 16:07 |
| jrayhawk_ | hahaha | 16:07 |
| justanotheruser | 19:07 < kanzure> justanotheruser: what do you think, is it safe for me to include that text verbatim and give attribution to that user? | 16:08 |
| justanotheruser | I'd include some... | 16:08 |
| justanotheruser | jk | 16:08 |
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| fenn | nmz787: how does metal clay toughness and tensile strength compare to the equivalent bulk metal? | 16:38 |
| kanzure | https://soundcloud.com/ilyadeep/ilya-gerus-alireza-dp | 16:41 |
| fenn | mitsubishi precious metal clay looks to be around 10-20ksi (about the same as epoxies) but that isn't an engineering alloy | 16:41 |
| fenn | kanzure your music taste is improving | 16:48 |
| kanzure | https://soundcloud.com/ilyadeep/ilya-gerus-vague-hallucinations-original-mix | 16:49 |
| fenn | too bad i can't just paste the url in mocp | 16:50 |
| kanzure | youtube-dl or cclive should be able to get it | 16:51 |
| fenn | yeah | 16:51 |
| fenn | i'm just wondering if the computer world will ever not be fractured and broken | 16:52 |
| kanzure | would probably have to be something about a set of principles for expectations and estimations that everyone would have to design around, so that they can avoid making unreasonable expectations of systems or implementations | 16:53 |
| fenn | an expectation of making the data available would be a good start | 16:53 |
| fenn | youtube-dl is one hell of a compatibility layer | 16:54 |
| fenn | it has 7 pages of options | 16:54 |
| fenn | it's designed to actively circuvent limiting measures | 16:55 |
| kanzure | 904 open issues https://github.com/rg3/youtube-dl/issues | 16:55 |
| kanzure | hell i should just put paperbot in there | 16:56 |
| justanotheruser | kanzure: they might appreciate it. you should ask | 16:57 |
| kanzure | i'd want to wait until i finish up unit tests for paperbot v2 first | 16:58 |
| kanzure | and then switch over to actively using paperbot v2 | 16:58 |
| kanzure | which has just been sitting there. all alone. | 16:58 |
| justanotheruser | kanzure: wait, you didn't give paperbot the ability to feel loneliness did you? | 16:59 |
| nmz787 | fenn: not sure, but you can probably find more info by looking into MIM (metal injection molding) | 16:59 |
| kanzure | honestly i forget | 16:59 |
| fenn | youtube-dl --list-extractors | wc -l | 17:00 |
| fenn | 451 | 17:00 |
| nmz787 | fenn: in both cases it seems like organic binders, two stages (a wax and a polymer), and metal particles of varying mixtures | 17:00 |
| nmz787 | fenn: and then again in both cases, kiln curing accompanied by some shrinkage | 17:00 |
| fenn | 30% shrinkage is a lot but what's more important is the uniformity of shrinkage | 17:01 |
| nmz787 | the few youtube vids on MIM seemed very nice | 17:01 |
| kanzure | hah what | 17:01 |
| nmz787 | like a scale factor would be fine | 17:01 |
| nmz787 | g2g now though | 17:01 |
| justanotheruser | paperbot: http://eprint.iacr.org/2014/852 | 17:09 |
| justanotheruser | can we ban paperlooker :P | 17:09 |
| justanotheruser | pls don't make me failtab | 17:09 |
| kanzure | .title | 17:14 |
| yoleaux | Cryptology ePrint Archive: Report 2014/852 | 17:14 |
| kanzure | hmm i don't know if paperbot supports this | 17:14 |
| kanzure | zotero seems to https://github.com/zotero/translators/blob/master/ePrint%20IACR.js | 17:14 |
| justanotheruser | someone posted in -wizards | 17:15 |
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| kanzure | i need more monitors | 18:47 |
| kanzure | and keyboards | 18:47 |
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| fenn | more ... brains ... | 19:15 |
| fenn | braaains | 19:15 |
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| kanzure | the problem is too disjoint and stuff. | 19:19 |
| kanzure | also, lulls are annoying | 19:21 |
| fenn | i do it for the lulls | 19:22 |
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| fenn | look, fresh brains | 19:23 |
| kanzure | those are lolz or lulz not lulls | 19:24 |
| kanzure | i'm not sure how to organize all this bitcoin information | 19:25 |
| kanzure | even in https://github.com/kanzure/bitcoin-incentives/blob/master/bitcoin-incentives.tex | 19:25 |
| kanzure | a list without numbered or named entries is a bad idea | 19:26 |
| kanzure | it's a very foreign method of software development | 19:27 |
| fenn | so give them numbers | 19:29 |
| fenn | what does \begin{enumerate} do | 19:29 |
| kanzure | oh right, numbers. | 19:29 |
| kanzure | it does numbering things. | 19:29 |
| kanzure | but still. | 19:29 |
| fenn | do the numbers change if you add or remove stuff? | 19:30 |
| kanzure | wouldn't it be better to have some method of cranking these out automatically instead of it just being "whatever bryan happens to remember or come across or intuit"? | 19:30 |
| kanzure | yes :( | 19:30 |
| kanzure | \item{name} works i think? | 19:30 |
| fenn | you're essentially doing observations on a thought experiment | 19:31 |
| fenn | you can also observe actual in-the-wild behavior and infer incentives from that | 19:32 |
| fenn | sometimes things you think will be incentives, aren't, and for no good reason | 19:32 |
| fenn | like, people are stupid | 19:32 |
| fenn | or they just dont know any better | 19:33 |
| kanzure | these should all be explicit though | 19:33 |
| kanzure | and the code should make them as explicit as possible | 19:33 |
| kanzure | and then optionally give you some stupid parameters for tweaking things if possible | 19:34 |
| fenn | what about "you get mad propz for running a node" | 19:34 |
| kanzure | do you? | 19:34 |
| fenn | have you interviewed miners about what they do and why | 19:35 |
| kanzure | i have talked with miners regularly for quite a while now | 19:35 |
| fenn | according to traditional economic theory linux never should have existed | 19:35 |
| kanzure | but not interviewed, not really | 19:35 |
| fenn | so i think it's unreasonable to expect you can discover all existing incentives just by thinking real hard | 19:36 |
| kanzure | lukejr operates eligius and he hangs out in wizards and often mentions what sort of custom tweaks he has made re: incentives for his pool | 19:36 |
| kanzure | eligius is an unfair example because it's probably the best maintained pool (probably the only one with a bitcoin core developer wizard person hanging around?) | 19:36 |
| fenn | why is 40 TBC == 0.04194304 BTC | 19:46 |
| kanzure | TBC? | 19:48 |
| kanzure | is this an altcoin? | 19:48 |
| fenn | i dont know what TBC is but apparently 0.1 TBC == 0.00004096 BTC | 19:48 |
| kanzure | oh this might be testnet bitcoin? yeah they had to reset testnet a few times becaues people started trading testnet bitcoin for real money | 19:48 |
| kanzure | so now they are on testnet3 | 19:48 |
| kanzure | anyway there's also a mode called regtest, which is like testnet except infinitely easier to test against because it doesn't require testnet's blockchain (starts at block 0 or 1?) | 19:49 |
| fenn | its being used as payout for eligius mining reward | 19:49 |
| fenn | doesnt make sense to me why that would use testnet | 19:50 |
| fenn | i also found some wackjob numbering system called "tonal bitcoin" | 19:50 |
| kanzure | ah, then it's probably not testnet. you best go ask in #bitcoin i suppose (but there's sharks in those waters). | 19:51 |
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| * kanzure considers http://people.xiph.org/~greg/simple_verifyable_execution.txt | 19:52 | |
| fenn | i'm basically treating all this like reading a foreign language | 19:52 |
| fenn | "hey i know that word" | 19:52 |
| kanzure | "that is not a word i would ever have any interest in knowing" | 19:52 |
| fenn | a hash is like an exploded tater tot right | 20:01 |
| fenn | did you actually understand that last link | 20:02 |
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| fenn | it made sense up until "Now lets define an adaptation key for two wires." | 20:04 |
| kanzure | well, i was reading that link while also watching some tv, replying to an email, selecting fine music, and double checking some thoughts about sidechains.pdf -- so essentially, no not yet. | 20:04 |
| kanzure | and also apparently contributing to https://github.com/TheBlueMatt/bitcoinninja/commits/master | 20:06 |
| kanzure | although i don't remember doing that | 20:06 |
| kanzure | i never really understood wikipedia's explanation of zero-knowledge proofs, it was always something about some stupid tunnels and caves. | 20:07 |
| fenn | i never really understood proofs | 20:07 |
| fenn | it always just seemed like a let down, or some kind of cheat | 20:07 |
| kanzure | these sorts of proofs seem very different from the traditional theorem kind | 20:08 |
| kanzure | they actually seem a little bit more accessible to me. | 20:08 |
| fenn | i havent read it yet but i expect a zero knowledge proof is just a machine that you know will work even though you dont know all the inputs | 20:09 |
| kanzure | paperbot: http://link.springer.com/chapter/10.1007/978-3-540-72540-4_4#page-1 | 20:09 |
| paperbot | http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/paperbot/f8a545c66f53888e6690517d9481af92.txt | 20:10 |
| kanzure | paperbot: http://link.springer.com/content/pdf/10.1007%2F978-3-540-72540-4_4.pdf | 20:12 |
| paperbot | XMLSyntaxError: None (file "/srv/ikiwiki/paperbot/modules/papers.py", line 524, in parse_html) | 20:12 |
| kanzure | <iframe src="https://library.rit.edu/depts/assets/ezproxy/ip-check.php" class="iframe" frameborder="0" allowtransparency="true">This library resource requires additional authentication for use from off-campus or because of specific licensing agreements.</iframe> | 20:13 |
| fenn | i guess its more like "prove you are actually my friend from high school and not an impostor from an intelligence agency who studied his dossier" | 20:15 |
| fenn | the more unlikely facts he knows, the less likely it is that he is an impostor | 20:17 |
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| * fenn sleeps | 20:25 | |
| kanzure | fun stuff: http://nozdr.ru/data/media/biblioteka/kolxo3/Cs_Computer_science/CsLn_Lecture%20notes/ | 20:38 |
| kanzure | .title http://www.eroids.com/ | 20:45 |
| yoleaux | Steroid Source Reviews. Check your supplier! | 20:45 |
| kanzure | alright let's do a group buy | 20:49 |
| kanzure | who's in? | 20:49 |
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| kanzure | "Proudly processing 2 billion nops per second since 2003." | 22:02 |
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| --- Log closed Thu Oct 23 00:00:25 2014 | ||
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