| --- Log opened Sun Oct 26 00:00:29 2014 | ||
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| fenn | https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hal_Finney_(cypherpunk) seems pretty skimpy on the career section. i have seen old emails from hal at various companies i.e. hal@ghs.com which doesnt seem like a video game company.. anyone know more about his professional career? | 01:06 |
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| fenn | also apparently he got into cryptography because of reading Vinge's "True Names" | 01:07 |
| fenn | "I recall reading "True Names" a few years ago. Vinge had | 01:08 |
| fenn | his netters exchanging mail anonymously. The hero downloaded a big | 01:08 |
| fenn | batch of messages from a BBS and tried decrypting all of them to see | 01:08 |
| fenn | which were for him. Okay, I thought, that would be a way of disguising | 01:08 |
| fenn | which messages you were _receiving_. Then Vinge said something like | 01:08 |
| fenn | "and using more elaborate techniques, the sender of a message could | 01:08 |
| fenn | be hidden as well." Hold on, I thought. That will never work. If | 01:09 |
| fenn | they tap your line, they're going to know exactly what messages you're | 01:09 |
| fenn | sending. | 01:09 |
| drethelin | sure but if you use codes you can send out a lot of messages | 01:10 |
| drethelin | some of which will contain the info you want to secretly conve | 01:10 |
| drethelin | convey | 01:10 |
| fenn | steganography? | 01:10 |
| drethelin | or just cyphers | 01:10 |
| drethelin | and a known location to watch | 01:10 |
| drethelin | eg your interlocutor could know to pay attention to comments from a certain user on a certain forum | 01:11 |
| drethelin | oh wait | 01:11 |
| drethelin | that's still steganography | 01:11 |
| drethelin | if the original message is legible | 01:11 |
| drethelin | I thought for a minute that was just for images/videos | 01:11 |
| fenn | Chaum's "mix" remailer would save up a batch of cryptographically | 01:13 |
| fenn | protected messages, decrypt them, rearrange their order randomly, then | 01:13 |
| fenn | send them out. This way if the remailer itself is secure but the | 01:13 |
| fenn | network connections to it are being monitored, the correspondance | 01:13 |
| fenn | between incoming and outgoing messages is lost. | 01:13 |
| fenn | no need to actually decrypt them, just re-encrypt them and forward sez me | 01:13 |
| fenn | these pre-www crypto lists are a lot easier to understand | 01:18 |
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| fenn | .title http://lril.oxfordjournals.org/content/2/2/201.full?keytype=ref&ijkey=Q1KAdy8OVIJl713 | 02:12 |
| yoleaux | Weaponising neurotechnology: international humanitarian law and the loss of language | 02:12 |
| fenn | mostly "ethics" blather | 02:14 |
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| archels | mind-body problem wat | 02:38 |
| archels | Among serious researchers, there are four kinds of people. (1) People who want to explain/understand learning (and perhaps intelligence) at the fundamental/theoretical level. (2) People who want to solve practical problems and have no interest in neuroscience. (3) People who want to understand intelligence, build intelligent machines, and have a side interest in understanding how the brain works. (4) People whose primary interest is to understand ... | 02:47 |
| archels | ... how the brain works, but feel they need to build computer models that actually work in order to do so. | 02:47 |
| fenn | i think the 'degenerate cartesian' stuff is about the legal interpretation of acts | 02:48 |
| fenn | not mystical voodoo ineffable soul stuff | 02:48 |
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| nmz787 | so i am wondering if i can represent components and layers on a circuit board as partial differenential equations, and use fenics to solve for the optimal solution... yielding an autorouted circuit board | 03:10 |
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| jrayhawk_ | fenn: hal was active in the lw community; if you have questions about his life, you might ask in #lesswrong | 03:20 |
| fenn | i expect people on ExI would know, since many of them have been around forever | 03:22 |
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| ebowden | paperbot: http://www.sciencemag.org/content/346/6208/463.full | 04:06 |
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| ebowden | Oh, oops. | 04:06 |
| ebowden | Paperbot: http://www.sciencemag.org/content/346/6208/463 | 04:06 |
| paperbot | http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/paperbot/2095bba0fdf4eeb66b38abfe6916fa5b.txt | 04:06 |
| ebowden | paperbot: http://www.sciencemag.org/content/346/6208/463 | 04:08 |
| paperbot | http://libgen.org/scimag/get.php?doi=10.1126%2Fscience.1257008 | 04:08 |
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| ebowden | :9 | 04:22 |
| ebowden | :( | 04:22 |
| ebowden | Link doesn't work. | 04:22 |
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| kanzure | for someone who complains so much you sure don't support bugfixes | 05:20 |
| kanzure | fenn: yes the whole thing about "oh yeah everyone in the community knows i wrote pgp and they're all okay with me not getting credit" is a little weird.... | 05:23 |
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| kanzure | "According to Uber[1] an UberX driver in NYC averages almost $91k per year based on driving a 40 hour week. However, in a follow up by BI[2], this figure seems to be widely refuted by Uber drivers across a number of states. For example, one in NYC says he drives 40 hours a week and doesn't expect to take in $50k this year, but that you can clear $4k a month after Uber expenses, gas, etc. doing 40 hours without too much hassle." | 06:11 |
| kanzure | so anyone making less than $100k should just go drive around for uber | 06:12 |
| kanzure | (until surge pricing fixes the market or whatever) | 06:12 |
| kanzure | first ref is http://www.businessinsider.com/uber-drivers-salary-90000-2014-5 | 06:12 |
| kanzure | oscilloscope music stuff http://www.jerobeamfenderson.net/tagged/oscilloscope | 06:13 |
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| streety | presumably how much you make will depend on when youwork those 40 hours | 06:35 |
| streety | *you work | 06:35 |
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| kanzure | certainly | 06:35 |
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| kanzure | http://retractionwatch.com/2014/10/26/scientist-sues-pubpeer-commenters-subpoenas-site-for-names/ | 07:03 |
| kanzure | "Last month, we reported that a Wayne State University cancer researcher had threatened legal action involving post-publication peer review site PubPeer, claiming that he had lost a job offer from the University of Mississippi because of comments on the site." | 07:03 |
| kanzure | .title https://pubpeer.com/publications/2D67107831BCCB85BA8EC45A72FCEF | 07:04 |
| yoleaux | PubPeer - Curcumin analogue CDF inhibits pancreatic tumor growth by switching on suppressor microRNAs and attenuating EZH2 expression | 07:04 |
| kanzure | this is their proof? hehe http://i.imgur.com/Kn1TV70.png | 07:05 |
| kanzure | response by the university seems rather strong to me | 07:07 |
| kanzure | unless they actually investigated | 07:07 |
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| kanzure | meh http://scholarlyoa.com/2014/10/23/low-quality-scholarly-publishers-dont-understand-copyright/ | 07:15 |
| kanzure | duh? "CC is a license, not a waiver of rights. The copyright owner retains all rights, but grants a license for use under certain conditions. That the copyright holder retains all rights is actually a necessary condition for any legal enforcement of the license terms. So “all rights reserved” and a CC license are not necessarily incompatible." | 07:16 |
| kanzure | hashcash implemented in a shell script http://www.hashcash.org/libs/sh/hashcash-1.00.sh | 07:19 |
| kanzure | hashcash implemented in python http://www.gnosis.cx/download/gnosis/util/hashcash.py | 07:20 |
| kanzure | me making comments about plover and source code typing https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8510928 | 07:39 |
| kanzure | "Wait, let's check. Assume 500 million qwerty typists. Assume an average of 10 minutes per day spent typing every day for a year by everyone. So a 1% improvement would be 34,700 years of labor saved over a single year? Pretty cool." | 07:39 |
| kanzure | 500 million users is probably wrong | 07:39 |
| kanzure | http://www.pewinternet.org/2011/09/19/americans-and-text-messaging/ | 07:42 |
| kanzure | "Some 83% of American adults own cell phones and three-quarters of them (73%) send and receive text messages." | 07:42 |
| kanzure | (not qwerty but who cares) | 07:42 |
| kanzure | "Metacrap: Putting the torch to seven straw-men of the meta-utopia" http://www.well.com/~doctorow/metacrap.htm | 07:58 |
| dingo | i'm happy to announce i am in the 17% | 08:29 |
| kanzure | yeah i think 83% is probably a lie because most people are on contracts where they do not own the phones anyway | 08:31 |
| kanzure | strange way to do maintenance https://coinfire.cf/2014/10/25/withdraw-coins-mcxnow-immediately/ | 08:40 |
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| heath | starbucks doesn't block libgen | 09:10 |
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| nsh | GG starbucks | 09:20 |
| dingo | typing faster seems to be the topic on HN today huh | 09:43 |
| kanzure | they downvoted me | 09:46 |
| heath | link? | 09:46 |
| kanzure | https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8510409 | 09:46 |
| chris_99 | don't see why they downvoted you for that | 09:47 |
| kanzure | haters gonna hate | 09:48 |
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| justanotheruser | Can I get syringes OTC? I want some Adenosine shots. | 11:03 |
| drethelin | what for | 11:05 |
| justanotheruser | restarting a heart | 11:06 |
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| drethelin | how often does that come up | 11:12 |
| drethelin | also do you mean adrenaline | 11:12 |
| kanzure | i'm sure you can buy syringes in bulk on alibaba | 11:12 |
| drethelin | https://www.google.com/search?q=syringe%27&oq=syringe%27&aqs=chrome..69i57l2j69i60j69i59j69i61j69i60.838j0j7&sourceid=chrome&es_sm=93&ie=UTF-8#q=syringe'&tbm=shop | 11:14 |
| kanzure | why did you paste that | 11:14 |
| justanotheruser | drethelin: about once a week | 11:15 |
| kanzure | syringes are kinda hard to find good sources for | 11:15 |
| kanzure | it's a legitimate question i think | 11:15 |
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| kanzure | chrome has been more crashy than usual lately | 11:38 |
| kanzure | can't even handle 200 tabs | 11:38 |
| justanotheruser | y u do thi | 11:39 |
| justanotheruser | s | 11:39 |
| justanotheruser | how do you even click the individually | 11:39 |
| kanzure | in firefox i use tree-style tabs | 11:39 |
| kanzure | in xmonad i use tags to identify each window i open (i think this is a feature they stole from cwm?) | 11:40 |
| kanzure | and in chrome i pretend to use https://chrome.google.com/webstore/detail/tabman-tabs-manager/hgmnkflcjcohihpdcniifjbafcdelhlm | 11:42 |
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| kanzure | block explorer style api https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/2844 | 12:15 |
| archels | "USON? oh well, I can probably prototype that" http://www.turingbirds.com/temp/IMAG0925.jpg | 12:27 |
| kanzure | nsh: pretend you are architecting a p2p distributed file storage system of some kind (but not the freenet kind) | 12:27 |
| kanzure | nsh: if a user wants to store data with "maximal redundancy", it seems like there needs to be some metric for risk profiles or something, and then you would choose various storage providers with risk profiles that don't all fail under the same set of circumstances. right? | 12:28 |
| kanzure | for example, it is objectively better (if you are aiming for maximum redundancy or reliability or something like this) to choose to allocate spending on storage to include any offer for storage that does not fail if the earth was to poof out of existence (or get totally blown up or something). but how does this get specified or checked or represented? | 12:31 |
| kanzure | (naturally, most people do not have that kind of requirement because they are usually dead when the planet gets destroyed, and most people aren't insane archivists.) | 12:32 |
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| fenn | beam it into space and hope somebody picks up the signal? gives a new meaning to interplanetary file system | 13:06 |
| kanzure | i don't think there's a way to prove that two separately advertized available storage capacities are different. | 13:06 |
| kanzure | that they aren't just the same storage provider doing a sybil attack against the network | 13:07 |
| kanzure | (which would be a wise thing for them to do: the more fake nodes they have redirecting customers back to their own storage, the more likely it is that a customer is to randomly pick them out of all their competitors who aren't doing infinite sybil advertisements) | 13:07 |
| fenn | but you could ask. presumably high fault tolerance systems have more latency and lower bandwidth so wouldnt be in demand by people who dont need them | 13:08 |
| kanzure | ask? | 13:08 |
| fenn | ask the provider. make up a protocol/format | 13:09 |
| kanzure | providers have an incentive to lie in the system i just described | 13:09 |
| kanzure | erm, i mean, they have an incentive to lie if these are paid data storage contracts | 13:09 |
| fenn | oh iread a different sense into the word "different" | 13:10 |
| kanzure | like assume the default contract is something with a start date, end date, payment schedule, and maybe a big lump of payment upfront but otherwise an even distribution, or maybe an entirely even distribution, where it is cheaper for a provider to steal your initial payment than it is to continue honoring the contracting or something.. maybe.. | 13:10 |
| kanzure | ah well i meant something like, suppose i told you i would store 1 MB of data. how do you know that the other 1 million 1 MB advertisements aren't just me advertising my single 1 MB a million times? | 13:11 |
| fenn | you look at past performance reputation | 13:12 |
| kanzure | great now i need a whole reputation system. i don't think anyone actually has one of those. | 13:12 |
| fenn | no but they should | 13:12 |
| fenn | upload download ratio is a reputation system | 13:13 |
| kanzure | it's centralized. | 13:13 |
| fenn | use a blockchain then | 13:13 |
| kanzure | haha | 13:13 |
| fenn | what | 13:14 |
| kanzure | yeah all of the blockchain-based reputation systems i've seen have been terrible | 13:14 |
| fenn | why | 13:14 |
| kanzure | i'm pretty sure reputation is not something that needs double spending protection? | 13:14 |
| fenn | you are already talking about "double spending" storage facilities with the 1 million 1 MB scenario | 13:15 |
| kanzure | i was thinking one possible defense of that would be something like: as soon as you connect to the network with new data storage capacity, the network determines some random data to dump into your system (and it can't be deterministic) | 13:16 |
| kanzure | and then you have to store that for some amount of time | 13:17 |
| fenn | yeah pre-allocating storage capacity seems like a good idea | 13:17 |
| kanzure | and then later you prove that you still have the data (based on some more random data that you couldn't have predicted beforehand) and submit a proof that you still have the original stuff | 13:17 |
| kanzure | and then you can show that you had that storage capacity for an hour or whatever.. but i don't know what that means. | 13:17 |
| kanzure | oh right, also conflicting proofs should cause something to happen, not sure what | 13:18 |
| fenn | so the 'attack' is what? not storing stuff for longer than an hour? | 13:18 |
| fenn | does this system really not exist yet? | 13:19 |
| kanzure | maybe the solution is to just have no storage advertising | 13:20 |
| fenn | i guess people with huge data storage needs just buy hard drives and put them in shipping containers | 13:20 |
| kanzure | they contract with data centers | 13:20 |
| fenn | how do they verify the data center's reliability? | 13:21 |
| kanzure | service-level agreements and such... and they write down "nine 9's" in the contract and underline it really hard. | 13:21 |
| fenn | ah yes the angry primate algorithm | 13:21 |
| kanzure | this seems helpful but not enough: https://bitcoinj.github.io/working-with-micropayments | 13:21 |
| kanzure | but with no storage capacity advertising, how would you figure out where to send data and pay for storage? | 13:25 |
| fenn | what is up with thepiratebay's search.. a search for "JSTOR" doesn't return this? http://thepiratebay.se/torrent/6554331 | 13:29 |
| kanzure | doesn't seem to search tags or descriptions | 13:31 |
| kanzure | also: even usb sticks lie about their storage capacity | 13:34 |
| kanzure | (right before they infect you with malware with 0days that were only announced just the immediatley prior week...) | 13:34 |
| kanzure | *immediately | 13:34 |
| justanotheruser | paperbot: http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S088915830090457X | 13:35 |
| paperbot | http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/paperbot/%0A%20On%20the%20Role%20of%20Monetary%20Policy%20in%20a%20Deflationary%20Economy%3A%20The%20Case%20of%20Japan%0A%20.pdf | 13:36 |
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| kanzure | paperbot: http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S088915830090457X/pdf?md5=46e38f19f4008082898cfac10ebddbcd&pid=1-s2.0-S088915830090457X-main.pdf | 13:37 |
| fenn | what was this about? http://seclists.org/fulldisclosure/2014/Mar/332 | 13:38 |
| fenn | .title | 13:38 |
| yoleaux | Full Disclosure: Administrivia: The End | 13:38 |
| paperbot | http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/paperbot/%0A%20On%20the%20Role%20of%20Monetary%20Policy%20in%20a%20Deflationary%20Economy%3A%20The%20Case%20of%20Japan%0A%20.txt | 13:38 |
| kanzure | oh yeah they shut down | 13:39 |
| fenn | why? | 13:39 |
| kanzure | maybe len dying had something to do with it | 13:39 |
| fenn | that was like 3 years ago? | 13:40 |
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| fenn | i mean, the usual protocol for when you're sick of maintaining something is to ask a new maintainer to stand up, not just unilaterally cockblock all your users | 13:41 |
| fenn | "i'm taking my ball and going home" is immature and counterproductive | 13:41 |
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| kanzure | they might not trust anyone else to run that list | 13:42 |
| kanzure | considering that vulnerabilities can be superweapons | 13:42 |
| fenn | but there will just be another list | 13:42 |
| fenn | you can't wish bad stuff away | 13:42 |
| kanzure | .title https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jRFKZGWrmrM | 13:42 |
| yoleaux | Coding in Python with Plover (Longer Code Snippet) - YouTube | 13:42 |
| kanzure | this part makes me a little more skeptical: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jRFKZGWrmrM&t=2m23s | 13:43 |
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| kanzure | i really wish she would respond to my challenge to type http://www.ioccc.org/2013/cable3/cable3.c | 13:43 |
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| fenn | would save a lot of character just doing last_action = l and directly referencing l.word or whatever | 13:45 |
| fenn | last.word instead of last_word = last_action.word | 13:46 |
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| fenn | not really sure how this works tho.. is there a key for "_" and "." or what? | 13:48 |
| fenn | or is it comparing what you're mashing in with words/tokens near the cursor | 13:49 |
| kanzure | it's this bit of code i think: https://github.com/openstenoproject/plover/blob/master/plover/formatting.py#L355 | 13:49 |
| kanzure | anyway yes this is poorly written | 13:49 |
| kanzure | all this "action.capitalize = True" shit should just be in a data structure or table somewhere, not code | 13:49 |
| kanzure | and "meta" is a bad variable name >:( | 13:50 |
| fenn | "alt" would be just as bad | 13:51 |
| kanzure | right presumably you should pick some names as part of the project and just say "this is how we're naming things, deal with it" ("plover command sequences consist of three key presses, and you should refer to it as a command sequence or sequence, and not meta or alt") | 13:52 |
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| fenn | well i'm just wondering if super-fast typing ability leads to super-verbose code | 13:53 |
| kanzure | https://github.com/openstenoproject/plover/blame/master/plover/formatting.py#L355 | 13:53 |
| fenn | it's more of a concern than "will i be able to type meta[len(META):] | 13:53 |
| kanzure | https://github.com/openstenoproject/plover/commit/015b4e2206ae8886d3bbce5c64824676b8523b0f | 13:54 |
| kanzure | (this is not mirabai's code) | 13:54 |
| kanzure | also i think this whole thing can be replaced with some sort of state machine | 13:55 |
| kanzure | i am highly skeptical of these implementation choices | 13:56 |
| fenn | This is me transcribing some of the code from Plover's codebase, using Plover and a steno machine. I didn't write this code, since I'm only a Python novice. It was originally written by Plover's awesome developers. But I transcribed it from a text file into Vim to demonstrate how easily and fluently code can be written with steno. It's not primarily about speed, but about chunking commands and | 13:56 |
| fenn | words into single strokes, as opposed to breaking them down into individual letters and typing each letter out one by one as in qwerty. Also notice how simple error correction is; an incorrect word is deleted with a single stroke. | 13:56 |
| kanzure | "an incorrect word is deleted with a single stroke" yes well it's vim... | 13:56 |
| kanzure | (i know, i know, it's also mapped in plover too) | 13:57 |
| fenn | i've read numerous scientific arguments against stateful interfaces | 13:57 |
| kanzure | but isn't that what this is | 13:57 |
| fenn | what did you mean "soem sort of state machine" | 13:57 |
| justanotheruser | kanzure: Would a deflationary currency be bad for an economy? | 13:58 |
| kanzure | instead of giant sprawling if-then conditions, it should be some modular system where state transition rules are more explicit | 13:58 |
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| fenn | oh, the sample code | 13:58 |
| kanzure | justanotheruser: error insufficient data.. there are many types of deflation, like monetary base deflation and uh.. that other one. | 13:58 |
| justanotheruser | kanzure: would bitcoins type of inflation be bad kanzoracle? | 13:59 |
| kanzure | do you mean bitcoin's type of deflation? | 13:59 |
| justanotheruser | yes | 13:59 |
| kanzure | there are many who argue it would not be bad | 13:59 |
| fenn | justanotheruser: inflation should be proportional to growth rate | 13:59 |
| fenn | szabo calculates the optimum inflation rate somewhere | 14:00 |
| justanotheruser | Seems it would make it harder to get loans with bitcoin | 14:00 |
| kanzure | loans would not be as necessary | 14:00 |
| kanzure | you would just save money instead | 14:00 |
| fenn | lol | 14:00 |
| fenn | "why do you need a loan, just get money" | 14:00 |
| justanotheruser | kanzure: should I be homeless until I get enough money? | 14:01 |
| kanzure | loaded question | 14:02 |
| justanotheruser | wouldn't not having a loan not allow you to have a house until you saved up enough money? | 14:03 |
| kanzure | first of all, houses are fucking stupid | 14:03 |
| justanotheruser | lolwut | 14:03 |
| kanzure | yeah great idea let's tie up the places we live with financial investments -_- | 14:03 |
| kanzure | and real estate speculation | 14:03 |
| justanotheruser | I am not talking about speculating on home value, I am talking about obtaining a basic necessity | 14:04 |
| kanzure | haha | 14:04 |
| kanzure | that's just how homes work man | 14:04 |
| fenn | unfortunately they are locked together in this world | 14:04 |
| fenn | thank you zoning board | 14:04 |
| kanzure | i'm not trying to be difficult here | 14:05 |
| justanotheruser | oracle tend to give vague answers so they aren't wrong | 14:05 |
| justanotheruser | Or not vague | 14:05 |
| kanzure | i find that being not wrong is a good thing | 14:05 |
| kanzure | for whatever reason i can't find a good bitcoin + deflation article | 14:06 |
| fenn | WRONG! | 14:06 |
| kanzure | i'm really surprised. | 14:06 |
| fenn | being wrong helps you learn | 14:06 |
| justanotheruser | thats why I asked you | 14:06 |
| justanotheruser | Maybe freicoin will take off | 14:06 |
| justanotheruser | maybe the population will be in decline when bitcoin becomes well adopted | 14:06 |
| justanotheruser | if deflation is bad, those are the two good scenarios for bitconi | 14:07 |
| kanzure | "the population will be in decline"? | 14:07 |
| justanotheruser | more people dying than being born | 14:07 |
| kanzure | again there are many types of deflation that you need to separate out | 14:07 |
| kanzure | there's an additional level of deflation bitcoin that i forget the name to, but it's the one where people lose coins (which is not easy to detect) due to deleting or irretrievably losing private keys, or sending them to unspendable outputs | 14:09 |
| kanzure | *of deflation in bitcoin | 14:09 |
| justanotheruser | yeah | 14:09 |
| justanotheruser | for this purpose, I would define money supply / number of people to be declining | 14:10 |
| kanzure | what do you mean by money supply, though | 14:11 |
| fenn | oh well i can't find the szabo article i thought i had read | 14:11 |
| kanzure | justanotheruser: arguably there is significantly less malinvestment in deflationary scenarios than in inflationary scenarios | 14:14 |
| fenn | but there is less good investment too | 14:14 |
| justanotheruser | malinvestment like? (other than bad housing loans) | 14:14 |
| kanzure | malinvestment like "gee i need to get rid of this worthless currency, hmm let's roll the dice" | 14:14 |
| fenn | stocking up on ammunition | 14:15 |
| kanzure | fenn: yes, it flips the false positives rate or something | 14:15 |
| justanotheruser | roll the dice literally, like gambling it away? | 14:15 |
| kanzure | yes some investments are just gambling | 14:15 |
| justanotheruser | well all are I think | 14:15 |
| justanotheruser | most just have an E[X] above 1 | 14:15 |
| kanzure | gambling doesn't mean you always take shitty bets | 14:16 |
| justanotheruser | yep | 14:16 |
| fenn | any random commodity would be a better financial holding than an inflationary currency | 14:16 |
| fenn | well, not beanie babies | 14:16 |
| * justanotheruser sells his dollars for tulips | 14:17 | |
| fenn | there's probably a word for this but i never studied economics | 14:17 |
| kanzure | so the weird thing is that people are buying tulips still | 14:17 |
| kanzure | they don't give that shit away for free | 14:17 |
| fenn | what's an anti-bubble called, something like iron ore | 14:18 |
| justanotheruser | yeah, but I assume the dollar loses value slower than a tulip | 14:18 |
| justanotheruser | a trough maybe? | 14:18 |
| kanzure | .g site:investopedia.com anti-bubble | 14:18 |
| yoleaux | http://www.investopedia.com/features/crashes/crashes2.asp | 14:18 |
| fenn | i mean a commodity that's not a speculative bubble | 14:19 |
| streety | value trap? | 14:19 |
| justanotheruser | fenn: I don't think it exists | 14:19 |
| fenn | it not existing would explain why there's no word for it | 14:20 |
| kanzure | justanotheruser: almost useful but not quite http://mises.org/daily/6709/Deflating-the-Deflation-Myth | 14:20 |
| justanotheruser | kanzure: mises has a very slight bias :) | 14:20 |
| kanzure | so what? | 14:21 |
| justanotheruser | Will read and see if its logical of course though | 14:21 |
| kanzure | at least you know the bias.. | 14:21 |
| kanzure | http://mises.org/daily/6459/Whats-So-Scary-About-Deflation | 14:22 |
| kanzure | http://mises.org/daily/6362/The-Deflationary-Spiral-Bogey | 14:22 |
| fenn | is there a difference between rising bitcoin prices due to speculation, and "deflation in the bitcoin economy"? | 14:22 |
| justanotheruser | I wonder if a deflationary crytocurrency would succeed | 14:22 |
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| fenn | s/price/exchange rate/ | 14:22 |
| justanotheruser | fenn: yes, people buying just because it will go up in value is speculation. It going up in value just because people want it to buy and sell stuff while the money supply goes down is deflation. | 14:23 |
| justanotheruser | that 2nd definition is a bit off, but I think it makes sense | 14:23 |
| kanzure | there's also a difference in the actual implementation details though | 14:23 |
| kanzure | like the block reward (er, subsidy) is clearly "inflationary" but it's known in advance so it sort of cancels itself out | 14:24 |
| fenn | it doesnt cancel out, it's just known, so it doesnt affect speculation much | 14:25 |
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| kanzure | in what way would it matter if it was possible to detect the difference between speculation and non-speculation? | 14:27 |
| fenn | you could be more certain that it would retain its value over time | 14:28 |
| kanzure | well... you can already be certain about minimum lower bound value proportional to total bitcoin supply. which is interesting and not a property that other currencies have provided, historically. | 14:28 |
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| fenn | explain please | 14:29 |
| fenn | what is "minimum lower bound value" | 14:29 |
| justanotheruser | if deflation truly is bad and bitcoin wrecked the economy I wonder if it would be softforked to have demmurage | 14:30 |
| kanzure | fenn: since the total supply of bitcoin will never be greater than 21 million (approximately), you know that your 1 bitcoin is 1 out of 21 million. thus it will retain that value over time. monetary-policy-inflationary currencies don't give you that guarantee. | 14:31 |
| kanzure | justanotheruser: nobody would agree that it was bitcoin | 14:31 |
| kanzure | justanotheruser: btw, the mastercoin person speculates that people might end up super angry at bitcoin users http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/bitcoin/fanaticism/lifeboat.yaml | 14:32 |
| justanotheruser | kanzure: by the definition of bitcoin you're right | 14:32 |
| kanzure | https://lifeboat.com/blog/2013/04/bitcoins-dystopian-future | 14:32 |
| fenn | kanzure: ok but the 1 bitcoin is still worthless if nobody wants bitcoins | 14:32 |
| kanzure | no | 14:33 |
| justanotheruser | kanzure: it would probably still be called bitcoin and it would be a softfork, but it wouldn't be bitcoin by the original definition | 14:33 |
| fenn | its just like some random pokemon trading card that nobody collects | 14:33 |
| kanzure | scenarios like aethereum seem to contradict that, fenn | 14:33 |
| justanotheruser | if it wrecks the economy, the softfork is bound to happen | 14:33 |
| kanzure | there's no way to prove that it was bitcoin that wrecked the economy, really | 14:33 |
| justanotheruser | if no one can get a loan it is easy to guess | 14:34 |
| kanzure | in that previous lifeboat link, you'll see that he speculates about national currencies failing, which will wreck the economy | 14:34 |
| kanzure | is that bitcoin's fault or is that various countries' faults for implementing a poorly designed system? | 14:34 |
| kanzure | is it bitcoin's fault that it's the only scarcity around? | 14:34 |
| fenn | "aetherium initial coin distribution based on bitcoin" <- that scenario? | 14:34 |
| kanzure | see http://nakamotoinstitute.org/mempool/hyperbitcoinization/ and http://nakamotoinstitute.org/mempool/speculative-attack/ | 14:34 |
| kanzure | fenn: right.. it's not just about the value of a bitcoin, but rather the entire utxo (unspent tx outputs). wouldn't be abandoned because anything that does abandon it, will be replaced by something that doesn't and get wider adoption... | 14:35 |
| fenn | if bitcoin is worthless and aetherem is still traded, that's analogous to having a worthless pokemon card even though mewtwo is still valuable | 14:35 |
| kanzure | so if bitcoin hardforks because of a feature change, and you can still spend something called "a bitcoin" on that network, it's not bitcoin? | 14:36 |
| fenn | if you can still spend it on the new network, it's still a bitcoin | 14:36 |
| kanzure | bitcoin has always had a weird epistemological problem about what the fuck it is. there's no central authority to define it heh. | 14:37 |
| kanzure | okay, so if you can spend it on the aethereum network...? | 14:37 |
| fenn | if the aethereum network still has value, then the bitcoin still has value | 14:37 |
| fenn | (assuming you can spend it there) | 14:37 |
| justanotheruser | interest how aethereum is a hardfork if everyone suddenly gave up on the old network | 14:37 |
| kanzure | also it's not just aethereum.. see my comments here: http://sfultong.blogspot.com/2014/09/the-stupidity-of-blockchain.html | 14:37 |
| fenn | can you spend bitcoins for new aethereum coins? (or whatever its called) | 14:38 |
| kanzure | er, i should clarify that aethereum doesn't exist yet :) | 14:38 |
| kanzure | for various definitions of exist | 14:38 |
| kanzure | .... | 14:38 |
| fenn | oh | 14:38 |
| fenn | ok then talking about sidechains seems more productive | 14:38 |
| kanzure | yes it is weird to say because i am clearly talking about it | 14:38 |
| justanotheruser | kanzure: snapshots are infinite inflation. I think they just lead to an immediate crash | 14:38 |
| kanzure | aethereum doesn't exist in the same way that sidechains don't exist at the moment | 14:39 |
| justanotheruser | not a crash, rather, no value at the start | 14:39 |
| kanzure | justanotheruser: who cares though? i can just sell my bitcoin in your snapshot, and buy more bitcoin. | 14:39 |
| justanotheruser | kanzure: the developer of the altcoin cares | 14:39 |
| kanzure | the developer of the altcoin was a moron :) | 14:39 |
| justanotheruser | for using a snapshot... | 14:39 |
| kanzure | right.. it's an incentive but it's bitter-sweet. | 14:40 |
| justanotheruser | there is so much downward pressure that I don't think any altcoins could succeed working that way | 14:40 |
| justanotheruser | with sidechains thats basically a known now | 14:40 |
| kanzure | i think the adoption pressure with an incentive snapshot would be stronger than the downward pressure in the very beginning, but i also don't care that much | 14:40 |
| kanzure | yes i agree that sidechains are a better idea anyway | 14:40 |
| fenn | a snapshot is what? | 14:40 |
| justanotheruser | copy the utxo over | 14:41 |
| kanzure | stripe.com is allocating 19% of their ripple-fork currency, stellar, to bitcoin user balances | 14:41 |
| kanzure | so if you own 100 BTC you end up with like 188,000 stellar-ripple-currency-units | 14:41 |
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| kanzure | (just an example) | 14:41 |
| kanzure | utxo is unspent transaction output index | 14:42 |
| justanotheruser | I don't think ripple uses a utxo, so it doesn't apply to that example | 14:42 |
| fenn | copying existing bitcoins to a new universe, basically | 14:42 |
| justanotheruser | but every distributed consensus example it works | 14:42 |
| kanzure | justanotheruser: er, probably right, they are probably doing the "bitcoin incentivization" through their centralization or something | 14:42 |
| kanzure | ("login with facebook!") | 14:43 |
| justanotheruser | its pretty easy to make a snapshot too | 14:43 |
| kanzure | i haven't been keeping track but it's possible that some altcoin has already done this | 14:43 |
| justanotheruser | just 1 tx in the genesis | 14:43 |
| justanotheruser | kanzure: auroracoin did somewhat | 14:43 |
| kanzure | fenn: yes | 14:43 |
| fenn | i'm not sure i get it.. doesn't that destroy the scarcity that gives bitcoin its value in the first place? | 14:43 |
| kanzure | heh | 14:43 |
| justanotheruser | fenn: you aren't making more bitcoins | 14:43 |
| kanzure | "it's complicated" | 14:44 |
| fenn | i know | 14:44 |
| fenn | but anyone can make a new universe and copy the ledger | 14:44 |
| kanzure | argument-by-evidence: bitcoin has a price that is non-zero despite the presence of these forks http://mapofcoins.com/ | 14:44 |
| justanotheruser | so arguing that is like arguing that me making paper justan-bills for every bitcoin user destroys scarcity | 14:44 |
| kanzure | right the ledger itself isn't the only valuable part of the equation | 14:44 |
| kanzure | it's also the consensus/agreement/adoption on a particular blockchain | 14:44 |
| kanzure | and the scarcity enforced by the mining and transaction rules etc etc | 14:44 |
| fenn | right, that's why i dont get why anyone would do that | 14:44 |
| kanzure | well why would they make an altcoin at all | 14:45 |
| fenn | its like saying "i am he-ra master of the universe" and walking around in your underwear | 14:45 |
| kanzure | that's basically satoshi nakamoto | 14:45 |
| fenn | .title http://youtube.com/watch?v=iDlISIMyx04 | 14:46 |
| yoleaux | Captain Freedoms Workout 2000 (MR.MOUSTACHO - Workout) - YouTube | 14:46 |
| fenn | i'm sorry it's just too funny | 14:47 |
| fenn | there's this tv show "american pickers" where these dudes drive around buying "junk" which is just old stuff that happens to still be around | 14:48 |
| fenn | it always amazes me that people are willing to pay hundreds of dollars for old advertising | 14:48 |
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| fenn | i wonder if the same thing will happen in the future for "junk crypto" | 14:49 |
| kanzure | in my comment on that other blog post i mentioned that someone will probably start doing that for altcoins that are dead or dying | 14:49 |
| fenn | like, antique digital assets | 14:49 |
| kanzure | split your total currency into 10 parts, each part gets proportionally allocated to people who had currencies in one dead altcoin, and just have each group adopt it or something | 14:49 |
| kanzure | of course, functional sidechains changes that a bit | 14:50 |
| kanzure | but the principle is roughly the same | 14:50 |
| fenn | if its dead it has no value tho, so your proportion is roughly zero | 14:50 |
| kanzure | adoption and buy-in of users | 14:51 |
| kanzure | peopel who had some amount of money in there | 14:51 |
| kanzure | if it's dead then people lost money | 14:51 |
| kanzure | "lost" | 14:51 |
| fenn | i guess you could just trade one dead currency for another | 14:51 |
| kanzure | also imagine back when satoshi hadn't distributed bitcoin yet | 14:52 |
| kanzure | "okay guys i have some numbers in my database. it's a super scarce currency. really." | 14:53 |
| fenn | oh ffs there's both "aethereum" AND "ethereum"? | 14:53 |
| fenn | where's my clue stick | 14:53 |
| kanzure | ethereum is the one that got $30M in bitcoin from people sending 'em on over | 14:53 |
| fenn | do these people not know what a trademark is | 14:54 |
| kanzure | they are trying to not alienate their user base i guess | 14:55 |
| fenn | by letting people inject confusion into the communication lines? | 14:55 |
| fenn | i would be pissed if someone named their project half a letter different and with the same pronunciation | 14:55 |
| kanzure | there's a huge amount of confusion and chaos on that altcoin forum haha | 14:56 |
| kanzure | very difficult for users to discriminate scams from technical competence | 14:56 |
| kanzure | or technical competence from malice | 14:56 |
| fenn | i think it takes a certain kind of detached personality to want to work on the core bitcoin protocol, and most people interested in finance don't have that personality | 14:57 |
| fenn | its like writing standards documents or drafting a constitution | 14:58 |
| kanzure | yes.. and it's not immediately obvious to everyone that they should go read source code or submit improvements to https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin | 15:00 |
| kanzure | in fact, i'm sure some people might not even know it's open source software, even if they are familiar with open source anyway heh | 15:00 |
| fenn | it's not obvious because there's no personal incentive to contribute to bitcoin development | 15:01 |
| fenn | vs being he-ra master of the universe | 15:01 |
| fenn | or at least i haven't figured out what the potential reward is | 15:01 |
| kanzure | there are many incentives to contribute to bitcoin development, all of which are not immediate and upfront | 15:02 |
| fenn | "for a better world" | 15:02 |
| kanzure | hah no not that one | 15:02 |
| kanzure | more like "become an expert for a multi-billion dollar industry that is experiencing 100x worse problems finding developers than silicon valley already is" | 15:02 |
| kanzure | *cough* | 15:02 |
| fenn | yeah i had figured that one out | 15:02 |
| fenn | is why i'm talking about it at all | 15:03 |
| fenn | also, learning takes time and knowledge is power | 15:03 |
| kanzure | "hey this is a unix system. i know unix." | 15:03 |
| fenn | a wild velociraptor appeared! | 15:03 |
| kanzure | world dinosaur preservation authority denies that ever happened | 15:04 |
| fenn | dinosaurs are a scarce commodity | 15:04 |
| fenn | invest in dino coin today, we're working toward a utopian future of humans and dinosaurs | 15:05 |
| fenn | also i think the potential for asset tracking is interesting. remember the hypothetical hackerspace vending machine? and all the problems we had figuring out how to grant access to various machines in different places | 15:07 |
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| kanzure | how is that a problem solved by a double spending preventer? | 15:07 |
| fenn | machines like 3d printers and laser cutters | 15:07 |
| fenn | it's a secure way to grant access to stuff | 15:07 |
| kanzure | also.. here is the primary storage attack to defend against: you are paying at regular intervals for some data to be stored, and really the storage provider deleted the data a long time ago. | 15:07 |
| justanotheruser | kanzure: oracle, another question- on your website your phone number is listed. Who provides forwarding for you? | 15:08 |
| fenn | duh. check the data at regular intervals | 15:08 |
| kanzure | justanotheruser: that's my real number. nobody calls me. i'm all alone. | 15:08 |
| kanzure | fenn: right. certainly. | 15:08 |
| fenn | require proof of possession of the data | 15:09 |
| justanotheruser | don't you get spam texts? | 15:09 |
| kanzure | also, it would be nice to incentivize things like "oops we had a crash or storage failure, so we're cancelling the future payments" and possibly getting a reward for that rather than trying to lie until the next proof checking interval or something... | 15:09 |
| kanzure | justanotheruser: no | 15:09 |
| fenn | text spammers just send spam to every number | 15:09 |
| justanotheruser | that makes sense | 15:10 |
| kanzure | and the only spam calls i get are due to my electric company selling my data | 15:10 |
| justanotheruser | you don't need to scrape the web to find phone numbers | 15:10 |
| justanotheruser | o_O | 15:10 |
| justanotheruser | sounds like a horrible business model | 15:10 |
| fenn | phones are stupid | 15:10 |
| justanotheruser | lol | 15:10 |
| kanzure | homes are stupid | 15:10 |
| justanotheruser | clones are stupid | 15:11 |
| fenn | why hasnt anyone sent up a laser relay to geostationary orbit | 15:11 |
| kanzure | jgarzik is setting up a bitcoin relay satellite thingy | 15:11 |
| kanzure | </random> | 15:12 |
| kanzure | it would be interesting if it was possible to sell my memory as a storage capacity on the p2p network thingy | 15:13 |
| kanzure | like, i can memorize 20 bits or something | 15:13 |
| fenn | ladee (the space laser data demonstrator module) had an encouragingly high bandwidth, i think 600Mbit? | 15:13 |
| kanzure | how would it be communicated that my storage service is not always online.. or something. | 15:13 |
| kanzure | or the relative reliability that i am advertising | 15:15 |
| fenn | uptime is a different metric than data integrity | 15:15 |
| kanzure | if i advertize 99.99999999% availablity, and get paid for such, what's the recourse if i was lying, compared to advertising 99.999% reliability and lying | 15:15 |
| fenn | er, wait, nevermind | 15:16 |
| kanzure | s/reliability/availability | 15:16 |
| kanzure | s/availability/uptime | 15:16 |
| kanzure | it would be nice to be able to buy 200 bytes across 500 different machines or something | 15:17 |
| fenn | would each machine store 200 bytes or just 200*8/500 bits | 15:18 |
| kanzure | i think either scenario is interesting and worthy of implementation | 15:18 |
| fenn | i dont actually trust 99.whatever% reliability estimates because they ignore catastrophic failure modes | 15:19 |
| kanzure | sure, makes sense. what's the right thing to say though... | 15:19 |
| fenn | napster had 100% uptime until it didnt | 15:19 |
| fenn | danger of "our incredible journey" | 15:20 |
| kanzure | i should submit one for hplusroadmap | 15:20 |
| fenn | ##hplusroadmap is being acquired by #bitcoin-wizards. these past six years have been an amazing time, full of awesomeness and super fantasiticiousness. thank you all for accompanying us on this incredible journey. | 15:22 |
| fenn | services will be suspended immediately. everyone get out. | 15:23 |
| kanzure | yeah. | 15:23 |
| kanzure | so maybe discriminating between uptime claims is impossible | 15:26 |
| kanzure | or rather, stupid, because anyone can be lying | 15:26 |
| kanzure | oh your solution was magical reputation layer | 15:27 |
| fenn | the probability that someone is lying or some disaster occurs is higher than their estimated failure rate in any case | 15:27 |
| kanzure | right... it would be stupid to lie with lower frequency than your failure rate. | 15:27 |
| fenn | reputation doesn't fix the catastrophic failure problem | 15:28 |
| fenn | you need redundancy either way | 15:28 |
| kanzure | what is wrong with catastrophic failure? | 15:28 |
| fenn | you lose the data | 15:28 |
| kanzure | sounds like regular falure? | 15:29 |
| kanzure | failure | 15:29 |
| fenn | regular failure is just data unavailability | 15:29 |
| kanzure | data storage provider, like someone with a laptop that turns their laptop off or disconnects it, should specify in their original contract, how long they expect to be offline at a time. this should be negotiated when negotiating price. | 15:30 |
| fenn | what about retroactive payment | 15:31 |
| fenn | "you were online for 50% of the time, here's (some complicated formula) dollars" | 15:31 |
| kanzure | payment at retrieve-time maybe? hmm. | 15:32 |
| fenn | "retrieve-time" is a dumb concept | 15:33 |
| kanzure | or just at the end of the contract entirely. | 15:33 |
| kanzure | or, after every proof? | 15:33 |
| fenn | how about each proof carries a reward | 15:34 |
| fenn | more uptime = more proofs | 15:34 |
| fenn | if you require stupidly high availability numbers, you pay more for that | 15:34 |
| kanzure | the problem with a scenario like "okay, you can go offline for a year until the first proof is required, or that i need to download everything from you" is that a business presumably needs money upfront for operations.. otherwise the data vanishes? | 15:34 |
| fenn | that's the business's problem | 15:35 |
| kanzure | hmm, okay, i think. | 15:35 |
| kanzure | sure does sound convenient | 15:36 |
| fenn | its in the user's interest to pay up front so they can ensure there aren't any payment problems that cause data loss | 15:36 |
| kanzure | right, pay into some sort of automated mechanism that pays for valid proofs or something, on a defined and negotiated schedule, such that a lack of proofs sends the money back to the user | 15:37 |
| kanzure | does this still require magical reputation layer? | 15:37 |
| fenn | you still want a reputation layer so the user knows what sort of uptime to expect | 15:38 |
| kanzure | once there's bad reputation the storage provider will just create a new account anyway with zero reputation | 15:39 |
| fenn | zero is bad | 15:39 |
| kanzure | alright then he pays himself for proofs | 15:40 |
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| fenn | what's the "business" model exactly? | 15:40 |
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| kanzure | gain reputation, then lie to a user to take their money | 15:40 |
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| fenn | he makes himself look like a high reliability storage provider, people sign up, data disappears, no money exchanges hands because of smart contract | 15:41 |
| fenn | maybe i'm missing something | 15:42 |
| kanzure | "actual availability turns out to be less than what you were paying for the whole time" | 15:42 |
| fenn | no, you only pay for proofs | 15:42 |
| fenn | proof of data is valued per byte, per proof | 15:43 |
| kanzure | how does that discriminate between someone storing your data in a nuclear bunker with redundant power supplies, versus someone storing it on their cell phone for oyu? | 15:43 |
| fenn | i'm not sure there's a reason one is better than the other | 15:44 |
| fenn | this all hinges on having your data stored with multiple independent providers | 15:45 |
| fenn | if all nuclear bunkers are shut down by the government, people who only stored their data in nuclear bunkers lose their data | 15:45 |
| fenn | if all cell phones are shut down by the government, people who only stored their data in cell phones lose their data | 15:46 |
| fenn | s/government/evil AI or whatever/ | 15:46 |
| fenn | so you want to diversify on as many axes as possible | 15:46 |
| kanzure | all of those axes can be faked by an adversary or attacker or scammer. hrm. | 15:47 |
| fenn | not necessarily | 15:47 |
| kanzure | {"cellphone": "true"} {"bunker": "of course"} | 15:47 |
| fenn | so it's a cellphone in a bunker? | 15:47 |
| fenn | then it's doubly vulnerable | 15:47 |
| kanzure | no i mean any node can say whatever it wants ("of course i'm a cell phone" and another one might say "of course i'm in a satellite in geosynchronous orbit") | 15:48 |
| fenn | right | 15:48 |
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| fenn | i dont know how to anonymously guarantee diversity of storage types | 15:49 |
| kanzure | i don't even know how to guarantee that every ip address isn't assigned to the same computer | 15:49 |
| fenn | same problem | 15:50 |
| kanzure | oh yeah you wanted salted copies everywhere.. | 15:50 |
| fenn | that doesnt help because then you have 50 copies on the same disk | 15:50 |
| fenn | also i'm not really sure what the access model is | 15:51 |
| kanzure | let's assume not memcache | 15:52 |
| fenn | if anyone can download the "stored" data, sorta defeats the purpose of salted copies | 15:52 |
| fenn | because a cheater could just download the stored data from another provider | 15:52 |
| fenn | and then salt | 15:52 |
| fenn | (if anyone can download the stored data, they need to have a decryption key to use it) | 15:53 |
| justanotheruser | thought for decentralized manufacturing: Go to a website, it gets your location and lists people around you with CNC machines and 3d printers. You upload your parts list and the prices by location are listed for the various people who can print or mill the parts. | 15:53 |
| fenn | yes see 2009 logs :{ | 15:54 |
| kanzure | justanotheruser: 100kgarage | 15:54 |
| kanzure | NEXT QUESTION | 15:54 |
| justanotheruser | thanks kanzoracle | 15:54 |
| fenn | also mfg.com does this in a shitty traditional business way | 15:54 |
| fenn | and emachineshop does something less distributed but more internetty | 15:54 |
| justanotheruser | kanzure: if someone tells me they are pushing 200 sales, does that mean they have almost 200 sales, or over 200 sales? | 15:55 |
| fenn | almost | 15:56 |
| justanotheruser | fenn: how can I be sure you're right if you're not kanzure? | 15:56 |
| fenn | how do you know i'm not kanzure | 15:56 |
| kanzure | because the truth is that i don't actually know anything | 15:56 |
| kanzure | you see, fenn figured out a long time ago that i'm just this giant lookup table | 15:56 |
| justanotheruser | oh | 15:56 |
| justanotheruser | source? | 15:56 |
| fenn | see the book "reciprocality" section "packers vs mappers" | 15:57 |
| justanotheruser | no, like where can I find this lookup table | 15:57 |
| kanzure | fenn: you might be amused to know that sheena also figured that out about me | 15:57 |
| fenn | kanzurebot what is the tallest tree in vermont | 15:57 |
| kanzure | one hand clapping | 15:57 |
| kanzure | justanotheruser: it can only be accessed over irc | 15:58 |
| justanotheruser | oh | 15:58 |
| justanotheruser | hmm | 15:58 |
| justanotheruser | so does fenn run this channel | 15:58 |
| justanotheruser | and he has kanzure and paperbot | 15:58 |
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| @fenn | i do now, bitches! | 15:59 |
| justanotheruser | please give me voice so I can be a level above kanzure | 15:59 |
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| fenn | sorry, i believe in the fungibility of people | 16:00 |
| kanzure | if there has to be a reputation system then it should be centralized | 16:00 |
| justanotheruser | kanzure: I disagree | 16:01 |
| kanzure | and anyone should be able to run one and compete against other established reputation systems on the network | 16:01 |
| justanotheruser | if there are only 2 degrees of trust then you can have a list of people trusted by you, give that to a few competitors selling a product and they can supply negative reviews from people you trust for their competitors and positive reviews for themselves | 16:02 |
| fenn | something something ripple whuffie | 16:02 |
| fenn | whuffie in the book 'down and out in the magic kingdom' not the stupid twitter followers thing | 16:02 |
| justanotheruser | these merchants would need to have the entire WoT to do that though | 16:03 |
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| fenn | a pre-requisite to all this is a system for stating what you will and will not do in various circumstances, a code of honor if you will | 16:03 |
| justanotheruser | fenn: well my model is for a decentralized gambling idea I had | 16:03 |
| fenn | justanotheruser: you can't "have" the web of trust because it's constantly changing, you can only query it | 16:03 |
| kanzure | why is a code of honor required | 16:04 |
| justanotheruser | fenn: you can have an outdated web of trust, no? | 16:04 |
| justanotheruser | fenn: the code of honor in my case would be "don't lie about an event happening or not happening | 16:04 |
| fenn | the code of honor is to provide a set of dimensions to base your reputation on. like who cares about your number of twitter followers if i'm buying storage capacity | 16:04 |
| kanzure | anyway, if you need a diversity of storage, then you should encrypt and upload multiple times i think | 16:05 |
| fenn | (bad example of honor i guess) | 16:05 |
| justanotheruser | a rule set | 16:05 |
| fenn | i like to think of it as protocols | 16:05 |
| fenn | protocol 123.4 i will store data for 123.4 microBTC per proof gigabyte | 16:06 |
| fenn | oh i shouldnt have reused the number, that's confusing | 16:06 |
| justanotheruser | what is a proof gigabyte | 16:07 |
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| kanzure | maybe it's important to distinguish failure modes from when a user is really getting cheated | 16:07 |
| fenn | basically a hash of the gigabyte and a random number | 16:07 |
| justanotheruser | oh | 16:08 |
| kanzure | there are more sophisticated proofs i think | 16:08 |
| fenn | probably | 16:08 |
| fenn | the challenger (user) provides the random number | 16:08 |
| kanzure | secure delegation of auditing http://eprint.iacr.org/2011/304.pdf | 16:08 |
| kanzure | you can have a network provide the random number | 16:08 |
| fenn | catchy title | 16:08 |
| kanzure | so that the user doesn't have to be online | 16:08 |
| fenn | the network is just acting as the user's agent in that case | 16:09 |
| fenn | the provider "challenging" themself is sorta useless | 16:09 |
| justanotheruser | maybe the blockchain should provide the random number so we can have them get paid trustlessly | 16:10 |
| justanotheruser | would require some zkp though | 16:10 |
| fenn | that's the idea.. i'm still not sure i understand zero knowledge proofs | 16:10 |
| justanotheruser | hmm | 16:10 |
| justanotheruser | I wonder how much producing a zkp would increase the cost of storage by | 16:11 |
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| justanotheruser | kanzoracle: how do I make yogurt glow in the dark | 16:13 |
| fenn | problem with just hashing the salted GB: to validate the proof you need to have a local copy of the GB, defeating the purpose of remote storage | 16:13 |
| fenn | you could compare the proof to another node storing the same data, but they might be colluding | 16:14 |
| justanotheruser | fenn: without the zkp, yeah. I think the original idea was to have M of N | 16:14 |
| fenn | M whats of N whats | 16:14 |
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| justanotheruser | M people storing the file agreeing on a hash | 16:15 |
| kanzure | people? | 16:15 |
| justanotheruser | too many people colluding means they don't have to store your file of course | 16:15 |
| kanzure | what is a people | 16:15 |
| justanotheruser | kanzure: servers, whatever | 16:15 |
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| kanzure | no way to confirm a server is a server | 16:15 |
| justanotheruser | kanzure: of course, sybil is a problem | 16:15 |
| fenn | .ety person | 16:15 |
| yoleaux | person (n.): "early 13c., from Old French persone "human being, anyone, person" (12c., Modern French personne) and directly from Latin persona "human being, person, personage; a part in a drama, assumed character," originally "mask, false face," such as …" — http://etymonline.com/index.php?term=person | 16:15 |
| fenn | aw wtf is this shit | 16:15 |
| kanzure | "assumed character" | 16:16 |
| fenn | .ety persona | 16:16 |
| yoleaux | persona (n.): "1917, "outward or social personality," a Jungian psychology term, from Latin persona "person" (see person)." — http://etymonline.com/index.php?term=persona | 16:16 |
| fenn | fuck you yoleaux | 16:16 |
| justanotheruser | (see person) | 16:16 |
| justanotheruser | ok | 16:16 |
| justanotheruser | .ety person | 16:16 |
| yoleaux | person (n.): "early 13c., from Old French persone "human being, anyone, person" (12c., Modern French personne) and directly from Latin persona "human being, person, personage; a part in a drama, assumed character," originally "mask, false face," such as …" — http://etymonline.com/index.php?term=person | 16:16 |
| * justanotheruser recurses infinitely | 16:16 | |
| fenn | from the latin 'per sona' that from which the voice originates | 16:16 |
| fenn | justanotheruser: your M of N could be exploited by a cheater who only sells fake storage capacity to users whose nicks start with the letter J | 16:18 |
| fenn | then you purchase storage capacity from 9 sybils and 3 honest providers, how do you distinguish the sybils and the honest nodes? | 16:19 |
| justanotheruser | fenn: its very difficult. Thats why a zkp is probably the only safe way to do this | 16:19 |
| kanzure | based on my analysis i have concluded that the conventional data hosting industry should have imploded decades ago | 16:20 |
| fenn | there is no data hosting industry | 16:20 |
| fenn | there is no data storage industry* | 16:20 |
| kanzure | what is amazon aws s3 | 16:21 |
| fenn | a single data storage provider | 16:21 |
| kanzure | what is cdn industry like akamai and cdnjs | 16:21 |
| fenn | uh, a cdn | 16:22 |
| fenn | you might as well say bittorrent is for data storage (which is plainly false, attested to by the huge numbers of unseeded torrents) | 16:22 |
| kanzure | hm. | 16:22 |
| fenn | anyway it's an interesting question, does s3 suffice for your needs/ | 16:23 |
| fenn | .wik s3 | 16:24 |
| yoleaux | "S3, S-3 or S03 may refer to:" — http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/S3 | 16:24 |
| fenn | .wik amazon s3 | 16:24 |
| yoleaux | "Amazon S3 (Simple Storage Service) is an online file storage web service offered by Amazon Web Services. Amazon S3 provides storage through web services interfaces (REST, SOAP, and BitTorrent). Amazon launched S3, its first publicly available web service, in the United States in March 2006 and in Europe in November 2007." — http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amazon_S3 | 16:24 |
| fenn | amazon gets around these problems by having trusted nodes | 16:25 |
| kanzure | and their own redundancy that they manage | 16:26 |
| fenn | sure but that's not the issue really | 16:26 |
| fenn | a single cease and desist will cause all of their nodes to "fail" | 16:27 |
| kanzure | well you should encrypt anyway | 16:27 |
| kanzure | ah at the infrastructure level, fair enough | 16:27 |
| kanzure | justanotheruser: deflation stuff https://mises.org/journals/qjae/pdf/qjae6_4_2.pdf | 16:28 |
| justanotheruser | O_o | 16:28 |
| justanotheruser | Apoplithorismosphobia | 16:28 |
| justanotheruser | This looks more promising than the other link you sent me which basically said "the economy won't completely fail if we have deflation" | 16:30 |
| fenn | you could store random bits of the stored data as one-time-pad proofs that get used up over time, and you have to periodically refresh your pad | 16:30 |
| justanotheruser | @An economy that is experiencing deflation or falling prices | 16:33 |
| justanotheruser | tends to be favorable to low-income groups because low-income individuals tend to | 16:33 |
| justanotheruser | spend a high proportion of their income on goods | 16:33 |
| justanotheruser | this seems to assume a constant salary, which deflation wouldn't provide I think | 16:34 |
| justanotheruser | It seems this paper may be full of strawman | 16:37 |
| justanotheruser | "The fear of deflation is simply a confusion of | 16:37 |
| justanotheruser | cause and effect, whereby economists and politicians blame falling prices for the | 16:37 |
| justanotheruser | problems caused by prior increases in the quantity of mone" | 16:38 |
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| fenn | oh the book was called "the programmer's stone" not "reciprocality" (the sequel) | 16:39 |
| kanzure | hmm. | 16:42 |
| kanzure | yes i would prefer to do this without reputation | 16:42 |
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| kanzure | although that would mean that nobody gains anything from being reliable? | 16:42 |
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| fenn | i think there's a difference between providing high availability storage and having a good reputation; the difference is whether you promised high availability or not | 16:43 |
| kanzure | sounds like a really weird thing to promise anyway. how would anyone know? | 16:45 |
| fenn | if someone promises high availability, a failure counts more against their reputation than against someone who doesn't promise it | 16:45 |
| kanzure | anyone can claim anything about high availability | 16:45 |
| fenn | sure but not everyone can back it up by providing it | 16:45 |
| kanzure | but isn't that the usual startup ploy- just keep selling promises until you get growth, then go back and cover your bases? heh | 16:45 |
| fenn | "how would anyone know?" is exactly the problem the reputation system is supposed to solve | 16:45 |
| kanzure | http://aws.amazon.com/glacier/ | 16:45 |
| fenn | are you willing to pay $500/mo to archive teh paperzz | 16:47 |
| kanzure | not like that, no | 16:48 |
| kanzure | i already have substantial archives sitting around | 16:48 |
| kanzure | that's part of the problem.. | 16:48 |
| fenn | data grows to fit available capacity | 16:48 |
| kanzure | that's not what i mean | 16:48 |
| fenn | goldfish in a bathtub | 16:49 |
| kanzure | if i just open it up to anyone, i get sued | 16:49 |
| kanzure | (access, i mean) | 16:49 |
| fenn | how is it that file sharers dont get sued | 16:49 |
| fenn | do you really get a bill of $0.01 per month for storing 1 GB | 16:51 |
| fenn | that cant be realistic | 16:52 |
| fenn | say i want to store 1GB for 10,000 years, that's only $1200 | 16:52 |
| kanzure | they expect you to store a lot of data i think | 16:53 |
| kanzure | and there might be a minimum | 16:53 |
| fenn | "average annual durability of 99.999999999%" i wonder how they come up with this number | 16:55 |
| fenn | i bet some magical OCR technology can shrink the size of teh paperz by several orders of magnitude | 17:00 |
| fenn | 208K secure_delegation_of_auditing.pdf | 17:02 |
| fenn | 12K secure_delegation_of_auditing.txt.gz | 17:02 |
| fenn | is there some kind of un-latex software | 17:03 |
| kanzure | not to my knowledge | 17:04 |
| fenn | srsly wtf, how is there 186kB of formatting there | 17:05 |
| kanzure | well it's pdf | 17:07 |
| fenn | what kind of excuse is that | 17:07 |
| kanzure | i don't want to be held responsible when someone shows up and says "oops your 2 TB data set turns out to be completely wrong 80% of the time because you deleted too much when converting from pdf" | 17:08 |
| fenn | it might be as little as 150GB | 17:10 |
| fenn | that's throwing out pictures tho | 17:10 |
| kanzure | what about supplementary data | 17:11 |
| fenn | supplementary data doesn't exist | 17:11 |
| kanzure | supplementary documents | 17:12 |
| kanzure | "Not only do users benefit from Visabl's powerful and easy to use interface, but manufacturers do as well. Advertise new products in the Visabl database with minimal effort. Sponsorship opportunities allow your products to be pushed to the top of the page increasing exposure. Listings let you display high resolution pictures of your antibodies along with formats, volumes, and catalog numbers. Best of all, Visabl links directly to the ... | 17:12 |
| kanzure | ... manufacturers site for purchasing. We are not a middleman." | 17:12 |
| kanzure | http://www.visabl.com/pages/about_us.html | 17:12 |
| kanzure | how is that not a middleman | 17:12 |
| kanzure | *rage* | 17:12 |
| fenn | they are just an advertiser | 17:12 |
| fenn | they dont sell antibodies, only advertisements | 17:12 |
| kanzure | they are a middleman for traffic | 17:12 |
| fenn | so i'd rather have a 150GB text archive than nothing | 17:13 |
| justanotheruser | kanzure oracle: tell me non-obvious reasons / non-health reasons I shouldn't smoke. | 17:13 |
| kanzure | what are you supposed to be not smoking, in particular | 17:13 |
| fenn | justanotheruser: it's disgusting and makes people not want to be around you | 17:13 |
| fenn | (apparently this is not obvious to smokers) | 17:13 |
| justanotheruser | orly? | 17:13 |
| justanotheruser | when I smoke I smell good, but on days I don't smoke I smell other people that smoke and they smell bad | 17:14 |
| fenn | that is just your nose dying | 17:14 |
| fenn | is it obvious? | 17:15 |
| justanotheruser | fenn: I don't smoke pot, but to try to understand where you're coming from, is smoking pot disgusting? | 17:15 |
| fenn | are you talking about pot or tobacco? | 17:15 |
| justanotheruser | fenn: it isn't obvious because the effects of not being able to smell smoke are temporary | 17:15 |
| justanotheruser | fenn: tobacco | 17:15 |
| justanotheruser | but I want pot for reference | 17:15 |
| fenn | uh, bong water is gross but it's contained in the bong | 17:16 |
| justanotheruser | also, my sense of smell has never been good I think. Thats not a reason to make it worse I guess | 17:16 |
| fenn | i haven't noticed any overwhelmingly bad people-smells due to pot | 17:17 |
| kanzure | non-health, but obvious, is money. | 17:17 |
| fenn | pipe tobacco and hooka also doesn't seem to be much of a problem wrt smell persistence | 17:18 |
| justanotheruser | I wonder what it is about pipe tobacco | 17:20 |
| justanotheruser | maybe its because you smoke less | 17:20 |
| justanotheruser | maybe you just get less on you | 17:20 |
| fenn | i dunno if this qualifies, but smoking is another dependency like eating or breathing that you have to deal with | 17:21 |
| justanotheruser | very true | 17:21 |
| justanotheruser | more generally, a time sink | 17:21 |
| fenn | if shit hits the fan and you are unable to acquire tobacco, it causes problems that otherwise you wouldn't have | 17:22 |
| justanotheruser | for addicted people, ya | 17:22 |
| justanotheruser | I assume shit hitting the fan is running out of funds | 17:22 |
| fenn | the world ends, or you are air-dropped into rural canada, etc | 17:23 |
| fenn | bad example | 17:23 |
| fenn | i watched a lot of 'survivorman' episodes | 17:23 |
| justanotheruser | I think the best example is running out of money | 17:23 |
| fenn | i've seen a lot of bums asking for and receiving cigarettes | 17:24 |
| justanotheruser | true. I hardly see them rejected actually | 17:25 |
| fenn | on the other hand, nicotine does seem to be a nootropic | 17:25 |
| fenn | i mostly take issue with the delivery mechanism | 17:25 |
| justanotheruser | yes, that is the positive | 17:25 |
| justanotheruser | even ignoring the delivery mechanism, nicotine does cause heart problems | 17:25 |
| fenn | i dont know much about it tbh | 17:26 |
| fenn | apparently nicotinic acid is structurally very different from nicotine | 17:26 |
| kanzure | hrm what's the minimum environment to prove that i am not being cheated | 17:36 |
| kanzure | is there a memalloc thing that is provably non-cheating | 17:37 |
| kanzure | where's my kernel person | 17:37 |
| fenn | i think therefore i am | 17:37 |
| fenn | (says the simulation) | 17:37 |
| fenn | looking at http://archiveteam.org | 17:39 |
| kanzure | win 394 | 17:39 |
| kanzure | gahJEOIQJ | 17:40 |
| kanzure | 17:36 < helmholtz> Hello all. I'm trying to build bitcoin 0.9.3 from source on ubuntu 12.04 and having trouble. I am getting the following error when running make | 17:40 |
| fenn | kanzure: are you really in 400 irc channels? | 17:40 |
| kanzure | that's not helmholtz >:( | 17:40 |
| kanzure | well it depends on what you mean by in | 17:40 |
| fenn | how can you even see what's happening | 17:41 |
| fenn | or remember which channel is which window | 17:41 |
| kanzure | drugs... | 17:43 |
| catern | lol | 17:43 |
| kanzure | my number one problem is seeing highlights actually | 17:45 |
| kanzure | but backlogs are very useful | 17:45 |
| fenn | is there away for irssi to not signify activity just for joins/parts? | 17:47 |
| kanzure | dunno, but i also dunno if i would use that | 17:49 |
| kanzure | "Gossip-based aggregation of trust in decentralized reputation systems" http://www.cs.cmu.edu/~arielpro/papers/trust.jaamas.pdf | 17:50 |
| fenn | hm. "Using dejunk, all these events on large channels are hidden if the user doing them has not said anything for a while. This way, you only see such activity when it matters." | 17:50 |
| fenn | isn't your status bar full of numbers? | 17:52 |
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| kanzure | yes, which i regret very strongly | 17:53 |
| fenn | what happens when it reaches all the way to the end? does it just run off the end? | 17:53 |
| kanzure | yes :( | 17:54 |
| kanzure | i want a vertical list, really. | 17:54 |
| fenn | that would be hard to do efficiently with ncurses | 17:55 |
| kanzure | could be through tmux for all i care | 17:56 |
| fenn | i was wrong, it should be easy with windows | 17:57 |
| fenn | http://hughm.cs.ukzn.ac.za/~murrellh/os/notes/ncurses.html#window | 17:57 |
| kanzure | what's the problem with just paying nodes to start seeding? | 17:58 |
| fenn | ask dingo | 17:58 |
| kanzure | that's the spirit, delegation! | 17:59 |
| fenn | i meant about vertical list | 17:59 |
| fenn | paying nodes to start seeding? | 17:59 |
| kanzure | meh i wouldn't do it with irssi anyway. i would rather do some irc daemon.. proxy.. thing.. that i have my clients connect to. and then i don't have to worry about shitty irc implementations or something. | 18:00 |
| * fenn reads omg backlog | 18:00 | |
| kanzure | or my ui also being my client (wtf) | 18:00 |
| fenn | that is kinda borked isnt it | 18:00 |
| fenn | model view controller!!! | 18:01 |
| kanzure | same thing with other forms of chat too | 18:01 |
| kanzure | it's like making my email daemon also my email client. | 18:01 |
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| catern | well in the case of irc, the custom of having a ZNC bouncer that just speaks IRC to Freenode and to your clients is quite interesting and cool - you just have one protocol all the way up and down the stack, just cached or whatever | 18:11 |
| kanzure | bouncers always seemed wrong to me | 18:17 |
| fenn | is a bouncer somehow different from a proxy? | 18:18 |
| fenn | i guess it stores state while you're disconnected | 18:19 |
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| fenn | kanzure: looks like vertical activity notifiers should be possible http://wouter.coekaerts.be/irssi/nlscreen.png | 18:50 |
| fenn | "works in 1 terminal, but does more redrawing (using more bandwidth if you run it remote), flickers a little bit, and doesn’t work perfectly (sometimes some lines in the nicklist will be blank for a short while)" | 18:51 |
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| kanzure | that sounds dumb | 19:07 |
| kanzure | meh | 19:08 |
| fenn | that's what i was thinking of when i said it would be hard to do efficiently | 19:08 |
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| kanzure | "At first, I decided to just solicit them our deck and pitch but then I realized something: Tim Ferriss and Jason Calacanis almost definitely knew each other. So I spoof called Calacanis from Tim Ferris’ number." | 19:24 |
| kanzure | tsk tsk | 19:24 |
| fenn | Tim Ferriss would have approved | 19:27 |
| kanzure | apparently not? https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8512039 | 19:28 |
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| kanzure | http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Analog_hole | 19:29 |
| kanzure | .wik Analog hole | 19:29 |
| yoleaux | "The analog hole (also known as the analog loophole) is a fundamental and inevitable vulnerability in copy protection schemes for noninteractive works in digital formats which can be exploited to duplicate copy-protected works that are ultimately reproduced using analog means." — http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Analog_hole | 19:29 |
| fenn | since when is spoofing caller ID "hacked my phone" | 19:34 |
| kanzure | since all the fun phone holes were plugged | 19:34 |
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| fenn | and how the fuck does a tech investor not know the difference | 19:34 |
| fenn | "people go to jail for doing these kinds of things" | 19:34 |
| fenn | @jason has 57 tweets! | 19:35 |
| fenn | 57,000 | 19:35 |
| fenn | oh. "Someone hacked my voicemail and changed my outgoing message to get me to invest." | 19:37 |
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| genehacker | didn't someone do a simulation of NASA's self-replicating factory? | 20:06 |
| genehacker | I can't seem to find it | 20:06 |
| kanzure | gimme more terms.. was this recent? | 20:07 |
| kanzure | 1980s AASM stuff? | 20:07 |
| genehacker | yeah | 20:08 |
| kanzure | which one | 20:08 |
| genehacker | or maybe the NIAC stuff | 20:08 |
| genehacker | no not recent | 20:08 |
| fenn | http://www.rfreitas.com/Astro/GrowingLunarFactory1981.htm | 20:08 |
| kanzure | http://www.islandone.org/MMSG/aasm/ | 20:08 |
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| fenn | i vaguely recall seeing some 3d flyovers of the "paving" process with lunar regolith dozers | 20:12 |
| genehacker | yeah and I remember a simulation that took into account the mining too or something | 20:12 |
| fenn | "Paving robots. In order to secure a firm foundation upon which to erect seed (and later LMF) machinery, a platform of adjoining flat cast basalt slabs is required in the baseline design. A team of five paving robots lays down this foundation in a regular checkerboard pattern, using focused solar energy to melt pregraded lunar soil in situ." | 20:13 |
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| genehacker | still nothing new in self-replicating robots? | 20:15 |
| genehacker | besides the moses-chirikjian universal constructor? | 20:15 |
| kanzure | there's this bitcoin person running around who raised a few million bucks for a self-replicating factory project | 20:16 |
| kanzure | however, he's never replied to my emails | 20:16 |
| fenn | dani eder is building a wiki on factories | 20:16 |
| kanzure | just a wiki? | 20:17 |
| fenn | a book i guess | 20:17 |
| kanzure | that's what the million bucks is for? fuck | 20:17 |
| genehacker | who's the bitcoin person? | 20:17 |
| kanzure | dani eder <danielravennest@gmail.com> | 20:17 |
| fenn | https://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/User:Danielravennest#The_Seed_Factory_Project https://sites.google.com/site/seedfactoryproject/ | 20:18 |
| kanzure | don't waste too much of your time here | 20:18 |
| genehacker | oh yeah that guy | 20:19 |
| fenn | what does "that guy" mean | 20:19 |
| fenn | and what does bitcoin have to do with it | 20:19 |
| kanzure | he had people send him bitcoin to "do this project" | 20:20 |
| genehacker | the guy who is posting his seedfactory stuff everywhere | 20:20 |
| fenn | my understanding is that dani eder worked at boeing for decades doing research on far-out space projects | 20:20 |
| kanzure | https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?action=profile;u=32418;sa=showPosts | 20:21 |
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| genehacker | also kanzure, do you have any good stuff on early semiconductor fabrication? | 20:23 |
| genehacker | I'm wondering if there are any processes for making ICs that don't use photo resist | 20:23 |
| fenn | yeah man gimme the dope, the good stuff | 20:23 |
| kanzure | yes but it's all in the logs though | 20:23 |
| fenn | high grade dopants | 20:23 |
| kanzure | yes there are non-photoresist methods, like the uh.. large-cut-width.. ruby.. something.. damn i don't remember the name | 20:24 |
| fenn | contact lithography? | 20:24 |
| genehacker | errr, semiconductor manufacturing processes that don't uses any organics or water | 20:25 |
| fenn | fib, sorta | 20:25 |
| fenn | surely you can make a flexible silicone out of moon dust :) | 20:25 |
| genehacker | moon dust is really low in hydrogen | 20:26 |
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| fenn | certainly one could make an etcher like a focused ion beam, but it would be horribly slow and energy intensive | 20:27 |
| fenn | i'm not sure how to do large scale pattern copying without lithography | 20:28 |
| fenn | maybe there are low melting point metals that can be used as masks? | 20:29 |
| fenn | like sodium or lithium | 20:29 |
| fenn | then you can do bulk ion bombardment to etch between the mask lines | 20:29 |
| fenn | oxygen ions prolly | 20:30 |
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| fenn | out of my league | 20:30 |
| fenn | it's hard enough to do this stuff with all of modern chemistry at your disposal | 20:31 |
| genehacker | well there's aluminum trifluoride which can be exposed by electron beams | 20:33 |
| kanzure | hm http://www.deshawresearch.com/ | 20:33 |
| genehacker | honestly I'd even be fine with millimeter scale transistors | 20:34 |
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| genehacker | and using big masks to selectively deposit dopant and aluminum | 20:35 |
| fenn | btw how you going to reduce all these elements without hydrogen or carbon? | 20:35 |
| kanzure | "honestly I'd even be fine with millimeter scale transistors" | 20:36 |
| kanzure | i am pretty sure that's a thing i have said in here | 20:36 |
| kanzure | in that exact phrasing | 20:36 |
| genehacker | molten oxide electrolysis | 20:36 |
| kanzure | kjskjskjs: are you around. you should be around. | 20:36 |
| fenn | oh here we go http://www.asi.org/adb/02/13/02/silicon-production.html | 20:37 |
| fenn | #3 search result for "lunar fluoride" | 20:37 |
| genehacker | molten oxide electrolysis is even simpler | 20:37 |
| genehacker | you don't need fluoride | 20:37 |
| fenn | uh, how do you keep your electrodes from melting without dissolving it in something? | 20:38 |
| genehacker | well the cathode is easy, you can just use molten iron which tapers into solid iron | 20:39 |
| genehacker | the anode is a bit harder because oxygen is evolved at it | 20:39 |
| genehacker | but that was solved recently | 20:39 |
| genehacker | using a solid solution of trivalent chromium and aluminum oxides: http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v497/n7449/full/nature12134.html | 20:40 |
| fenn | since the moon has a decent vacuum it should be feasible to just make a huge mass spectrometer and have an array of buckets to catch all the different isotopes | 20:42 |
| kanzure | paperbot: http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v497/n7449/full/nature12134.html | 20:42 |
| paperbot | http://libgen.org/scimag/get.php?doi=10.1038%2Fnature12134 | 20:42 |
| genehacker | yeah you could do that, but that's not very power efficient | 20:43 |
| fenn | "electronically conductive solid solution of chromium(iii) and aluminium oxides in the corundum structure" as the anode. i wouldn't have come up with that just thinking about it | 20:44 |
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| genehacker | http://donaldsadoway.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/05/nature12134-Sadoway.pdf | 20:45 |
| fenn | genehacker: just heating stuff up to its boiling point doesn't sound so inefficient | 20:46 |
| genehacker | this isn't heating it up to the boiling point | 20:47 |
| genehacker | just hot enough to get it molten | 20:47 |
| fenn | but you have to add current too | 20:47 |
| fenn | i mean, melting it is doing nothing for the electrical reaction besides providing a conductive path | 20:48 |
| genehacker | and the current keeps it molten | 20:48 |
| fenn | s/electrical/redox/ | 20:48 |
| genehacker | The Moon: Resources, Future Development and Settlement has a nice review of the energy requirements of various material extraction approaches on the moon | 20:50 |
| fenn | interesting cross section micrographs | 20:50 |
| fenn | almost geological processes | 20:51 |
| genehacker | and magma electrolysis has some of the lowest kj/kg requirements | 20:51 |
| fenn | is energy really a scarce commodity tho | 20:51 |
| fenn | i'm assuming you'll want huge orbiting mirrors anyway | 20:53 |
| genehacker | when you have big inefficient dumb robots, probably | 20:53 |
| kanzure | probably not solid mirrors because damage and stuff. so finite particle field of reflective stuff. | 20:54 |
| fenn | i dont really see the point of replicating microelectronics on the moon, it's easier to just ship a few thousand chips up | 20:54 |
| fenn | and you dont need semiconductors to do power electronics because it's all in a vacuum | 20:55 |
| genehacker | yeah, hence the big dumb robots | 20:55 |
| genehacker | the point of not send electronics up is to get full materials closure | 20:56 |
| fenn | i know | 20:56 |
| fenn | a) we can't do full closure on earth, and b) you have to send something up anyway | 20:57 |
| genehacker | and to remove limits on replication rate | 20:57 |
| fenn | yay now you have a moon covered in robots, now what | 20:59 |
| genehacker | first the moon, then the world! | 20:59 |
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| genehacker | and if you have something that can replicate on one airless rock, it can likely replicate on other airless rocks too | 21:00 |
| justanotheruser | " For this thought experiment, we will imagine that your child has been kidnapped and put up for sale on “TorSlaverâ€. Their business plan is to kidnap children and sell them to the highest bidder, whether parent or pedophile. The winning bidder is sent the location of the child, probably bound and gagged and dumped somewhere. As long as they don’t get caught doing the kidnapping, the kidnappers can do ... | 21:00 |
| justanotheruser | ... this again and again with complete impunity. Once someone proves it can be done, copycats will come out of the woodwork, and it won’t matter if the first mover gets caught." | 21:00 |
| justanotheruser | kanzure: do you think this is realistic at all? | 21:00 |
| kanzure | law enforcement already has policies against paying ransoms i think | 21:01 |
| kanzure | so far ransomware has been having greater success though | 21:01 |
| tallakahath | I am thorougly pleased with the quality of 'first few posts upon entering the channel' provided by this channel. | 21:01 |
| justanotheruser | kanzure: I mean, do you actually think there is a market for kidnapped children? | 21:02 |
| justanotheruser | Sounds like a great honeypot too | 21:02 |
| kanzure | well there's already kidnap insurance i think | 21:02 |
| justanotheruser | o_O | 21:02 |
| kanzure | what you don't have any? | 21:02 |
| justanotheruser | getting insurance for a providers kidnapping makes sense. A childs, not so much | 21:02 |
| fenn | genehacker: there's a huge difference between the composition of the moon and say, a carbonaceous chondrite | 21:02 |
| justanotheruser | "oh no my child just got kidnapped, but I got $500k so theres that" | 21:03 |
| fenn | genehacker: chemistry optimized for one will be totally useless on the other | 21:03 |
| kanzure | justanotheruser: the insurance is for paying the ransoms and post-kidnapping trauma therapy | 21:03 |
| genehacker | true, but I was more referring to mercury | 21:03 |
| kanzure | because after that your kid is fucked up and never has sex or something | 21:03 |
| justanotheruser | kanzure: ohh... that makes sense | 21:03 |
| fenn | genehacker: oh, i was figuring the asteroid belt was the eventual destination | 21:04 |
| fenn | tallakahath: welcome to the nerdiest channel on freenode | 21:05 |
| justanotheruser | irc is for nerds | 21:05 |
| justanotheruser | freenode is the nerd network | 21:05 |
| justanotheruser | ##hplusroadmap is the nerdiest channel on freenode | 21:06 |
| genehacker | oh dang 22% water in carbonaceous chrondites | 21:06 |
| genehacker | that's pretty nice | 21:06 |
| justanotheruser | does that mean the biggest nerds in the world reside here? | 21:06 |
| kanzure | definitely by mass | 21:06 |
| justanotheruser | LOL | 21:06 |
| justanotheruser | 900lb nerds in here? | 21:06 |
| fenn | they don't call it the nerd singularity for nothin | 21:06 |
| tallakahath | Eh I think #trains can give ya'll a run for your money | 21:06 |
| tallakahath | But I will require more data points. | 21:06 |
| justanotheruser | /msg #trains CHOOOOO CHOOOOO | 21:07 |
| genehacker | but the point is if you can get molten oxide electrolysis working, you can extract materials from pretty much anything rocky | 21:07 |
| fenn | well, tell that to the open source ecology people | 21:07 |
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| kanzure | 21:06 <+_46bit> Okay I'm just going to pretend elliptic curve point addition isn't commutative. | 21:09 |
| kanzure | 21:08 <+_46bit> Oh god, that fixes everything. | 21:09 |
| kanzure | 21:08 * _46bit goes back to fitful sleep | 21:09 |
| justanotheruser | tallakahath: I just joined | 21:11 |
| justanotheruser | and some guy welcomed me and asked me about my first train ride and made the bot post train ASCII | 21:12 |
| justanotheruser | this channels awesome | 21:12 |
| genehacker | hmmm, I wonder if this works here | 21:12 |
| genehacker | sl | 21:12 |
| genehacker | darn | 21:12 |
| fenn | irc bots get annoying after a while | 21:13 |
| kanzure | rip gradstudentbot | 21:13 |
| fenn | http://opensourceecology.org/wiki/Aluminum_Extractor i wonder what the illustration is based on | 21:14 |
| fenn | they don't seem to have settled on an actual design yet | 21:14 |
| kanzure | hasn't it been like a decade by now | 21:14 |
| fenn | a lot of these things were low priority research projects | 21:15 |
| kanzure | page started 2011 | 21:15 |
| kanzure | so.. an internet decade, maybe. | 21:15 |
| tallakahath | justanotheruser: Yeah lexande is pretty awesome | 21:16 |
| tallakahath | (I assume he's the one you ran into) | 21:16 |
| justanotheruser | tallakahath: yeah... I don't want to be mean, but is he autistic or something? | 21:17 |
| genehacker | well at the very least they should build modelica models of everything, because then they could start simulating stuff | 21:17 |
| kanzure | jmodelica if you want to be evil | 21:17 |
| justanotheruser | tallakahath: hes really nice but I was a bit surprised to get 10 questions about my train experiences before I said anything | 21:18 |
| kanzure | justanotheruser: you're asking if a channel about trains on irc (on freenode of all places) has an autistic person? | 21:18 |
| justanotheruser | lol... | 21:19 |
| tallakahath | justanotheruser: Not that I've noticed, though my baseline for 'is X autistic' is rather... skewed. | 21:19 |
| tallakahath | Its more a matter of context - you've joined #trains out of nowhere, so you're going to get queried. | 21:19 |
| justanotheruser | I'm loling so hard kanzure | 21:19 |
| kanzure | i'm pretty sure everyone in here can qualify as autistic so what the hell do you expect in #trains | 21:19 |
| justanotheruser | really? | 21:19 |
| kanzure | says one irc user to another | 21:20 |
| justanotheruser | kanzure: I think one thing autistic people can't do is do presentations in front of audiences | 21:20 |
| kanzure | this place is more aspergered up than #wrongplanet even | 21:20 |
| fenn | hard to say; 90% of the lurkers here never say anything | 21:21 |
| justanotheruser | kanzure: are you diagnosed with aspergers? | 21:21 |
| justanotheruser | or are you just exagguration | 21:22 |
| justanotheruser | *ing | 21:22 |
| kanzure | yeah, probably. the last guy who checked me out was super lazy. | 21:22 |
| kanzure | when i got an adhd diagnosis when i was young it was like 36 hours of testing over a few days. | 21:22 |
| justanotheruser | I see | 21:23 |
| fenn | psychiatry is so full of crap | 21:23 |
| justanotheruser | so you're an aspie-savant | 21:23 |
| kanzure | who knows | 21:24 |
| justanotheruser | idk, find the autistic savant sequence | 21:25 |
| fenn | the field might actually make some progress if they used objective tests to make their diagnoses | 21:25 |
| kanzure | .title https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K4JhruinbWc | 21:26 |
| yoleaux | How Differential Gear works (BEST Tutorial) - YouTube | 21:26 |
| fenn | daniel amen does SPECT scans to determine which brain regions are malfunctioning in his patients | 21:27 |
| justanotheruser | I have a screenshot of your slide on how to make a h+ lab. I didn't know what to do with it, so I took a screenshot proving I took a screenshot and uploaded it to imgur https://i.imgur.com/eNt7TlP.png | 21:27 |
| kanzure | you are extremely productive | 21:28 |
| justanotheruser | lol | 21:28 |
| fenn | so meta | 21:29 |
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| justanotheruser | now I'm going to bookmark this imgur link so I don't forget | 21:29 |
| kanzure | justanotheruser: http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/irc/diy-transhuman-tech.pdf | 21:30 |
| kanzure | http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/irc/caltech_presentation.pdf | 21:30 |
| kanzure | what's wrong with people? screenshots of screenshots on imgur? pffft | 21:30 |
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| kanzure | how about original source material | 21:30 |
| justanotheruser | kanzure: thats how I save everything I need to remember | 21:30 |
| kanzure | ouch | 21:31 |
| fenn | i can't tell if he's doing a satire or not | 21:31 |
| justanotheruser | fenn: I'll note that you think I'm being sarcastic https://i.imgur.com/j9mGFHc.png | 21:32 |
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| fenn | when i was 12 i would save screenshots of text like that | 21:33 |
| justanotheruser | I am 12 | 21:33 |
| justanotheruser | so I guess I'll be at your level when you're however old you are :D | 21:34 |
| kanzure | when i was 12 i think i was mark karpeles | 21:35 |
| justanotheruser | o_O | 21:36 |
| * justanotheruser notes that kanzure is a time traveler | 21:36 | |
| fenn | http://fennetic.net/irc/fenn.PNG well that's not right | 21:36 |
| justanotheruser | https://i.imgur.com/PFBVEtw.png | 21:36 |
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| kanzure | quickest way to do an atomically precise cake slice? | 21:37 |
| kanzure | fib? | 21:37 |
| fenn | make your cake out of self assembling protein nanocrystals? | 21:37 |
| kanzure | okay then | 21:38 |
| tallakahath | CNC | 21:38 |
| fenn | and cleave the crystal | 21:39 |
| fenn | i was going to say single crystal silicon | 21:39 |
| genehacker | make an atomically precise cake | 21:40 |
| genehacker | I'd suggest DNA or CD-MOF | 21:40 |
| fenn | this is not really atomically precise http://phys.org/news/2011-02-kilogram-approaching-avogadro-constant-enriched.html | 21:40 |
| genehacker | http://www.internetchemie.info/news/2010/sep10/images/edible-cd-mof.jpg | 21:41 |
| genehacker | it is not often you see a research paper explicitly call for everclear | 21:42 |
| genehacker | http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/anie.201002343/abstract | 21:42 |
| kanzure | .title | 21:42 |
| yoleaux | Metal–Organic Frameworks from Edible Natural Products - Smaldone - 2010 - Angewandte Chemie International Edition - Wiley Online Library | 21:42 |
| kanzure | paperbot: http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/anie.201002343/abstract | 21:43 |
| tallakahath | Oh, I was hoping this would be a cheaper way to make organometallic precursors/an excuse to have proper everclearin lab. | 21:44 |
| kanzure | he is doing molecular nanotech things | 21:45 |
| fenn | make a cake from graphene | 21:49 |
| genehacker | is graphene infused caramel ok? | 21:50 |
| fenn | caramel is sort of the opposite of what i was going for | 21:50 |
| fenn | genehacker: you remember the dna origami counting tiles right? there was a variation that assembled a recursive/hierarchical structure | 21:53 |
| genehacker | vaguely | 21:53 |
| fenn | it seems like one could build a large structure with a single well defined edge using this template | 21:54 |
| genehacker | we'll show those DNA nanotech people, we'll show them | 21:56 |
| fenn | .title http://www.pnas.org/content/106/15/6054/F5.expansion.html | 21:56 |
| yoleaux | An information-bearing seed for nucleating algorithmic self-assembly | 21:56 |
| fenn | but in 3d | 21:56 |
| genehacker | I bet they don't have to deal with heat dissipation like we do | 21:57 |
| fenn | who is "we" | 21:57 |
| fenn | bulk synthesis people? | 21:58 |
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| genehacker | an assortment of different researchers | 22:00 |
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| fenn | this is what i was remembering http://fennetic.net/irc/self_assembling_fractal_antenna.gif | 22:08 |
| genehacker | well toth-fejel had some conceptual self-assembling circuit designs for logic gates and what not in their niac paper | 22:10 |
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| fenn | cute http://nextbigfuture.com/2013/06/nanoscale-etching-of-3d-fractal.html | 22:12 |
| genehacker | www.niac.usra.edu/files/studies/final_report/883Toth-Fejel.pdf | 22:14 |
| fenn | i liked the moravec/forward "bush robot" http://www.frc.ri.cmu.edu/users/hpm/project.archive/robot.papers/1999/NASA.report.99/9901.NASA.S3.html | 22:18 |
| fenn | can't say i ever thought the toth-fejel paper was at all practical | 22:20 |
| fenn | "look, cubes!" | 22:21 |
| genehacker | they did seriously consider how to replicate the control system though | 22:21 |
| fenn | "to achieve closure, self-replicating machines must be simple and in a sense rather primitive" | 22:25 |
| fenn | why would they say that | 22:26 |
| fenn | show me a simple replicator | 22:26 |
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| kjskjskjs | fenn: there are some fairly small bacterial genomes, no? | 22:29 |
| fenn | not any with "closure" that is to say auxotrophy | 22:29 |
| kjskjskjs | .g auxotrophy | 22:29 |
| yoleaux | http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Auxotrophy | 22:29 |
| kjskjskjs | .wik auxotrophy | 22:29 |
| yoleaux | "Auxotrophy (Gr. αὐξάνω "to increase"; τροφή "nourishment") is the inability of an organism to synthesize a particular organic compound required for its growth (as defined by IUPAC)." — http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Auxotrophy | 22:29 |
| kjskjskjs | do you mean "without auxotrophy"? | 22:30 |
| fenn | i guess i meant autotrophy | 22:30 |
| kjskjskjs | .wik autotrophy | 22:30 |
| yoleaux | "An autotroph[α] ("self-feeding", from the Greek autos "self" and trophe "nourishing") or "producer", is an organism that produces complex organic compounds (such as carbohydrates, fats, and proteins) from simple substances present in its surroundings, generally using energy from light (photosynthesis) or inorganic chemical reactions ( …" — http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Autotrophy | 22:30 |
| kjskjskjs | hmm, I thought autotrophy had to do with where your energy comes from | 22:31 |
| fenn | yeah now i'm confused | 22:31 |
| kjskjskjs | I think all currently existing organisms require nutrients produced by other organisms | 22:32 |
| fenn | Auxotrophy is the opposite of prototrophy, which is characterized by the ability to synthesize all the compounds needed for growth. | 22:32 |
| kjskjskjs | from what? | 22:32 |
| fenn | from inorganics? | 22:33 |
| kjskjskjs | has any such organism ever existed? | 22:33 |
| kjskjskjs | I mean there are acetylene molecules between the stars | 22:34 |
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| kjskjskjs | .t http://www.keckobservatory.org/article.php?id=39 | 22:35 |
| yoleaux | kjskjskjs: Sorry, I don't know a timezone by that name. | 22:35 |
| kjskjskjs | .title http://www.keckobservatory.org/article.php?id=39 | 22:35 |
| yoleaux | | W. M. Keck Observatory | 22:35 |
| fenn | i used to be into panspermia theory and the work of fred hoyle and chandra wickramasinghe | 22:36 |
| kjskjskjs | .title http://web.archive.org/web/20070223211405/http://www.keckobservatory.org/article.php?id=39 | 22:36 |
| yoleaux | W. M. Keck Observatory | 22:36 |
| fenn | anyway i get the impression that the word "prototroph" was only used in studies trying to work out what vitamins were | 22:36 |
| kjskjskjs | fucking lame webmasters | 22:36 |
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| kjskjskjs | "The two organic compounds found -- acetylene and hydrogen cyanide -- are commonly found in our own solar system, such as the atmospheres of the giant gas planets, the icy surfaces of comets, and the atmosphere of Saturn’s largest moon, Titan." | 22:37 |
| fenn | but there are definitely complexes of organisms that can reproduce from trace minerals and nitrate enriched media | 22:37 |
| kjskjskjs | "If you add hydrogen cyanide, acetylene and water together in a test tube, and give them an appropriate surface on which to be concentrated and react, you'll get a slew of organic compounds including amino acids and a DNA purine base called adenine" | 22:37 |
| kjskjskjs | oh really? that don't need any organic vitamins at all? | 22:38 |
| kjskjskjs | I guess I was figuring that even precambrian life had ample supplies of pre-existing organic compounds so it probably didn't need to evolve the ability to live without them | 22:38 |
| kjskjskjs | but I guess hoping that your environment will provide you enough amino acids to live is suboptimal and the actual ecosystem we live in doesn't do that, instead depending on nitrogen-fixing bacteria | 22:39 |
| kjskjskjs | mycoplasma genitalium is 582,970 base pairs | 22:40 |
| fenn | mycoplasma is basically a virus | 22:40 |
| fenn | pseudomonas is more realistic as an independent organism | 22:41 |
| kjskjskjs | it is? it can't reproduce without eukaryotic cells to attack? | 22:41 |
| fenn | correct | 22:41 |
| fenn | it needs all sorts of "growth factors" | 22:41 |
| fenn | "Cyanobacteria such as Spirulina (Arthrospira) are also photoautotrophs, able to use CO2 as their sole carbon source and light as their energy source." | 22:42 |
| fenn | we grew vats of stuff with only light and minerals added | 22:43 |
| kjskjskjs | neat | 22:43 |
| kjskjskjs | so (some?) cyanobacteria are prototrophs | 22:44 |
| kjskjskjs | https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22675597 says the A. platensis C1 genome contains 6,089,210 bp | 22:46 |
| paperbot | http://libgen.org/scimag/get.php?doi=10.4056%2Fsigs.2525955 | 22:46 |
| kjskjskjs | that's a bit under a megabyte | 22:46 |
| fenn | since most of earth is roaring with diverse molecules and life forms, only "extremophiles" will be adapted to environments that are relatively simple in their chemistry | 22:46 |
| kjskjskjs | right, I'm surprised that even they are, though | 22:47 |
| kjskjskjs | since earth always has been | 22:47 |
| kjskjskjs | but I guess not all of earth | 22:47 |
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| fenn | in terms of macroscopic amounts of chemicals, i don't think at any given time there would have been huge quantities of adenine falling from the sky | 22:48 |
| kjskjskjs | yeah | 22:48 |
| fenn | it doesn't take much to destroy complex organics either; prolonged ultraviolet light, an oxidizing environment | 22:49 |
| kjskjskjs | yes | 22:49 |
| kjskjskjs | this is one reason the interstellar acetylene surprised me | 22:49 |
| fenn | did earth have CO2 before it was bombarded with carbonaceous comets? | 22:49 |
| kjskjskjs | even though that's typically a reducing environment | 22:49 |
| kjskjskjs | I don't know | 22:49 |
| kjskjskjs | I mean presumably that depends on whether it existed before that | 22:50 |
| fenn | But Chandra, if the interstellar material is organic, if that is true, then, there is so much of it that this will be better precursor material for biology than to do it on the earth in Urey-Miller fashion." That was the unguarded remark. That set him off and then he must have looked through hundreds and hundreds of spectra to fit the infrared data among organics. And then quite suddenly as soon | 22:51 |
| fenn | as he moved to biological specimens, that fit it better than anything else. | 22:51 |
| kjskjskjs | ? | 22:52 |
| kjskjskjs | oh I see | 22:52 |
| kjskjskjs | but the earth wasn't an oxidizing environment either at the time | 22:52 |
| kjskjskjs | we can blame cyanobacteria for that | 22:53 |
| fenn | they looked at spectra of interstellar dust clouds and the only thing that fit over the entire spectrum was dried bacterial spores | 22:53 |
| kjskjskjs | haha, nice | 22:53 |
| fenn | so the mind-blowing conclusion is that the universe is just overflowing with life | 22:53 |
| kjskjskjs | I didn't realize there was actual evidence for panspermia | 22:53 |
| fenn | testable predictions you mean | 22:54 |
| fenn | i think it's highly suspect that the earth was immediately colonized with life as soon as it was possible | 22:54 |
| kjskjskjs | well, was it? | 22:54 |
| fenn | yeah | 22:55 |
| kjskjskjs | I mean clearly our kind of life | 22:55 |
| kjskjskjs | but I will be surprised if we don't find non-RNA-based life somewhere that RNA and DNA are too unstable | 22:55 |
| kjskjskjs | e.g. due to temperature | 22:56 |
| fenn | i read some theory about the most prevalent environment for life was in the outer layers of a dying red dwarf | 22:59 |
| kjskjskjs | ...whoa. | 22:59 |
| fenn | not sure if i believe it though, especially since that was before we started discovering all these planets | 22:59 |
| kjskjskjs | Man, we think *our* gravity-well problem is bad... | 23:00 |
| kjskjskjs | getting out of a dying red dwarf presumably requires nuclear rockets, no? | 23:00 |
| fenn | this whole thing was pretty confusing https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_rain_in_Kerala | 23:01 |
| genehacker | I think you mean planets surrounding red dwarfs | 23:01 |
| genehacker | except that: http://www.iflscience.com/space/potential-life-red-dwarf-planets-peril-due-extreme-space-weather | 23:03 |
| fenn | paperbot: http://arxiv.org/abs/astro-ph/0601022 | 23:10 |
| paperbot | http://libgen.org/scimag/get.php?doi=10.1007%2Fs10509-005-9025-4 | 23:10 |
| fenn | bah | 23:10 |
| fenn | paperbot: http://arxiv.org/ftp/arxiv/papers/1008/1008.4960.pdf | 23:13 |
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