| --- Log opened Sun Nov 16 00:00:52 2014 | ||
| archels_ | not sure why this is anything but sensationalism http://www.nature.com/ncomms/2014/141111/ncomms6392/full/ncomms6392.html | 00:18 |
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| fenn | archels: the paranoid schizos are going to have a fun time with that | 04:16 |
| fenn | "Synthetic devices for traceless remote control" "mind-controlled gene switch that enables human brain activities and mental states" | 04:21 |
| fenn | i'm kinda suprised it got into Nature | 04:24 |
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| kanzure | hrm. | 05:33 |
| kanzure | hmm james/cubespawn is using counterparty | 05:34 |
| kanzure | http://www.cubespawn.com/ | 05:35 |
| kanzure | "cubecoin" ugh | 05:36 |
| kanzure | http://thecoinfront.com/crypto-swartz-will-get-you-paid-for-your-great-content/ | 05:38 |
| kanzure | "It works by allowing anyone to upload content to a decentralized network, tag the content with a short but meaningful sentence and then allow anyone to ‘vote’ on that tag." | 05:38 |
| kanzure | that's an awful idea :( | 05:38 |
| fenn | it's reddit | 05:40 |
| fenn | can you add new tags? | 05:40 |
| fenn | oh it gets better, "votes have a minimum cost in order to prevent vote spamming" | 05:42 |
| fenn | so now you get to make spammy content, pay yourself to publish it, and everyone sees it | 05:43 |
| fenn | why do we still not have a trust network | 05:43 |
| kanzure | so they have created a bad idea for a bad advertizing channel? | 05:43 |
| kanzure | i don't know what a "trust network" is supposed to be but everything i've seen claiming to be one has just been riddled with terrible ideas everywhere | 05:44 |
| fenn | you do graph traversal until you find the source of the thing you're judging, and you add up all the links voting it up/down | 05:45 |
| kanzure | yes i know that's the idea, but in practice you get sybil attacks | 05:45 |
| fenn | if there's a blob of spam-bots hanging off the side of the graph, it doesn't get counted in the traversal | 05:45 |
| fenn | why "in practice you get sybil attacks"? | 05:45 |
| kanzure | if you don't care about the other parts of the network then why do you need a network | 05:46 |
| fenn | because otherwise people will do sybil attacks? | 05:46 |
| kanzure | no, i mean if you don't need a network, don't use it | 05:46 |
| fenn | you don't care about the spambots because they're spam | 05:46 |
| fenn | i'm confused | 05:47 |
| fenn | we need a network to prevent sybil attacks | 05:47 |
| kanzure | haha what | 05:48 |
| kanzure | all the cool kids these days just assume that everyone is a sybil attack and then proceed from there, instead of using some central authority to grant immunity from sybil | 05:48 |
| fenn | "The Sybil attack in computer security is an attack wherein a reputation system is subverted by forging identities in peer-to-peer networks." | 05:48 |
| kanzure | "forging" is wrong | 05:48 |
| fenn | find, "creating" | 05:48 |
| fenn | fine* | 05:48 |
| kanzure | well you weren't the quote author | 05:49 |
| fenn | i can fix it if you want | 05:49 |
| kanzure | nope we're good now | 05:49 |
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| fenn | "In a Sybil attack the attacker subverts the reputation system of a peer-to-peer network by creating a large number of pseudonymous identities, using them to gain a disproportionately large influence." | 05:49 |
| fenn | so what are the cool kids doing? | 05:50 |
| fenn | ignoring everyone? | 05:50 |
| kanzure | bitcoin assumes everyone is an adversary or something | 05:50 |
| kanzure | or potential adversary | 05:50 |
| fenn | bitcoin isn't a reputation system | 05:50 |
| kanzure | and instead each node has to run "eternal vigilance" or w/e | 05:50 |
| kanzure | yes but sybil attacks are important, however | 05:51 |
| kanzure | *are important in bitcoin | 05:51 |
| fenn | maybe you're thinking denial of service | 05:51 |
| kanzure | indeed no | 05:51 |
| kanzure | although | 05:51 |
| * fenn reads https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Weaknesses#Sybil_attack | 05:51 | |
| kanzure | actually yes, arguably a sybil attack is a denial of service attack | 05:51 |
| kanzure | if you populate a system's database with lots of junk, that sounds like denial of service to me | 05:52 |
| kanzure | although not in the conventional sense | 05:52 |
| fenn | this looks like a denial of service to me | 05:52 |
| kanzure | this conversation should probably be moved to -wizards since they think about reputation networks and sybil attacks more regularly than i do | 05:53 |
| fenn | bleh wizards is too smartypants | 05:53 |
| kanzure | e.g. "yo dawgs can you link me to good ideas or implementations for reputation systems? why doesn't exist?" | 05:53 |
| kanzure | wait what do you mean | 05:54 |
| fenn | they expect me to have read 30 years of academic crypto literature | 05:54 |
| kanzure | well i haven't | 05:54 |
| fenn | also i think they'd misunderstand and think i was talking about key verification or something | 05:55 |
| fenn | when i really mean whuffie | 05:55 |
| kanzure | then just say whuffie, jeesh | 05:56 |
| fenn | jeesh | 05:56 |
| kanzure | http://www.waag.org/biohackacademy "The registrations have opened for an intense biohack bootcamp that will start on February 17, 2015: | 06:03 |
| kanzure | "Build your own biofactory in 10 weeks in Waag Society’s FabLab and Open Wetlab. Make all the equipment you need and use an organism from our collection to produce biomaterials such as pigments, cellulose, algae, fuel and more. During weekly lectures you will also learn the basics of biotechnology, 3D design, digital manufacturing, programming and electronics." | 06:03 |
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| fenn | that's a lot to learn | 06:07 |
| kanzure | might be possible if it's not learning (just follow instructions) | 06:08 |
| fenn | experience from following instructions is surprisingly valuable | 06:09 |
| kanzure | postdocs rejoice | 06:09 |
| fenn | it gives you a basis to anchor book learning | 06:09 |
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| fenn | "here is your clue certification, we have 90% confidence you have a clue" | 06:10 |
| fenn | certifications should come with error bars | 06:11 |
| kanzure | hey do you know any wsgi integration testing frameworks/libraries/things for python? | 06:11 |
| kanzure | i need some gevent-based integration testing framework thing.. except each test must be executed in order (or rather, synchronously, and never in parallel). | 06:12 |
| fenn | no, gevent? | 06:12 |
| kanzure | gevent is just a coroutine library from before asyncio existed | 06:13 |
| kanzure | https://docs.python.org/3/library/asyncio.html | 06:13 |
| kanzure | http://gevent.org/ | 06:13 |
| fenn | "Subroutines are special cases of ... coroutines." great | 06:14 |
| fenn | still doesn't tell me what it is | 06:14 |
| kanzure | .wik coroutine | 06:15 |
| yoleaux | "Coroutines are computer program components that generalize subroutines for nonpreemptive multitasking, by allowing multiple entry points for suspending and resuming execution at certain locations." — http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coroutine | 06:15 |
| fenn | this sounds like GOTO spaghetti | 06:15 |
| kanzure | in practice it ends up looking something like: gevent.sleep() instead of sleep() | 06:16 |
| fenn | so are you doing something like task queues? | 06:17 |
| kanzure | not at the moment | 06:17 |
| * kanzure pushes some code | 06:18 | |
| kanzure | https://github.com/kanzure/bitcoin-reorg-compatibility-toy | 06:18 |
| kanzure | so, one of the reasons why none of the bitcoin companies from 2010-2011 are still around is because they all failed to implement reorg-handling code | 06:19 |
| kanzure | so i figured i would write an example of an application that can correctly handle rollbacks | 06:19 |
| kanzure | and the demonstration of this correct handling would be in the integration tests | 06:19 |
| fenn | do you know about operational transforms, like in etherpad/google docs | 06:20 |
| kanzure | if i do then not by that name.. | 06:20 |
| fenn | basically small-scale diffs that can be applied atomically | 06:20 |
| kanzure | to solve my current problem i could just write plain python scripts without a testing framework. and then execute those files individually. | 06:21 |
| fenn | anyway it strikes me as similar to reverting a series of commits in a version control system | 06:21 |
| kanzure | but i strongly prefer a testing framework (like unittest?) that can run wsgi applications and have normal testing framework things that i don't want to manually do. | 06:22 |
| fenn | what does wsgi have to do with anything | 06:22 |
| kanzure | well, bitcoind has some event notify hook stuff | 06:22 |
| kanzure | where it calls a script, which i figured would be a curl/wget call to an http web server, which would then perform the right rollbacks in the application itself | 06:23 |
| fenn | does bitcoind exchange data over http? | 06:23 |
| kanzure | you can pass it a path to a script for alertnotify, blocknotify, etc. | 06:23 |
| kanzure | that script can load business code i guess, but ideally i can be running a wsgi application and bitcoind will trigger alertnotify which will trigger an http request to that wsgi application being executed by the test framework. | 06:23 |
| fenn | are reorgnizations that rare that it's an "alert"? | 06:24 |
| kanzure | no, alert is something else | 06:24 |
| kanzure | iirc it's satoshi nakamoto's bat signal | 06:25 |
| kanzure | https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Alerts | 06:25 |
| fenn | sounds like a single point of failure | 06:27 |
| kanzure | "The known private key holders are Satoshi Nakamoto, Gavin Andresen and theymos. There are other people able to issue alerts in the event of the incapacitation of the aforementioned.[1]" | 06:27 |
| kanzure | not quite single? | 06:27 |
| fenn | you should be able to configure your client to receive alerts from whatever key you want | 06:27 |
| kanzure | "There are people other than Gavin and myself who have the alert key, but we're the public contact points. If both of us are incapacitated, there are people who will still be able to issue alerts. If one of the alert key holders goes evil, there's a failsafe in the code to handle this." | 06:28 |
| fenn | "it's open source" he says | 06:28 |
| kanzure | sure, but this is just a default | 06:28 |
| fenn | BNN the bitcoin news network | 06:29 |
| fenn | i'm reporting from rural cyberia where an outbreak of mad miner's disease is crippling the local yield | 06:29 |
| kanzure | -blocknotify=<cmd> Execute command when the best block changes (%s in cmd is replaced by block hash) | 06:29 |
| kanzure | -walletnotify=<cmd> Execute command when a wallet transaction changes (%s in cmd is replaced by TxID) | 06:29 |
| fenn | can you explain "correctly handle rollbacks" | 06:31 |
| kanzure | i should really say "reorgs" instead of "rollbacks" because "rollbacks" is not in the jargon apparently | 06:31 |
| kanzure | "The term "blockchain reorganization" is used to refer to the situation where a client discovers a new difficultywise-longest well-formed blockchain which excludes one or more blocks that the client previously thought were part of the difficultywise-longest well-formed blockchain. These excluded blocks become orphans. Chain reorganization is a client-local phenomenon; the entire bitcoin network doesn't "reorganize" simultaneously." | 06:32 |
| fenn | is there a point at which you're certain you're on the longest chain? | 06:33 |
| fenn | is there ever* | 06:33 |
| kanzure | probability dictates that for most transactions waiting 6 blocks (6 confirmations) is enough | 06:33 |
| kanzure | https://people.xiph.org/~greg/attack_success.html | 06:34 |
| kanzure | as the blockheight increases the probability of a block being reverted/changed/modified drops dramatically | 06:34 |
| fenn | so, "no" | 06:35 |
| kanzure | when a block is replaced in a reorg there are a number of possibilities.. the original transactions may be included, some may be excluded, other transactions may be included (like those that existed in a prior higher block... which as you can imagine looks funky for deposits to a BTC-holding service) | 06:35 |
| kanzure | yes the answer is "no" but most people running a bitcoin-accepting service do not care about a 1 / 10^1000000 chance or w/e. | 06:35 |
| fenn | just trying to get my mental models straightened out | 06:36 |
| kanzure | attack_success.html says that if an attacker has 1% of the total network hashrate and is trying to rewrte a block from 200 blocks ago, attack success probability is "1.23553e-16" | 06:36 |
| fenn | i dont think they need to be an attacker to cause a reorganization | 06:37 |
| kanzure | the cost of that sort of attack is pretty high, so if you are only dealing with low-value transactions you can usually just assume that nobody is going to bother spending $50M/day or whatever attacking you to revert a $5 transaction | 06:37 |
| fenn | i mean it's just something that happens due to the algorithm | 06:38 |
| kanzure | yep that's right | 06:38 |
| kanzure | but by default you are not attempting to rewrite very deep blocks | 06:38 |
| kanzure | s/rewrite/redo | 06:38 |
| fenn | so you're saying companies failed because of this? because customers lost faith in companies due to transactions that were reverted? | 06:38 |
| kanzure | although justanotheruser pointed out one scenario where a miner sees that another miner got a block that had a huge transaction fee (like say 10,000 BTC maybe)-- in which case, it would be in their best interest to try to mine that block again and so on... if they have enough hasrate, at least. | 06:39 |
| kanzure | well... there are a number of reasons that companies failed, some related to reorgs directly and some that are only slightly related. | 06:39 |
| kanzure | wasn't about losing faith in companies though (afaik) | 06:40 |
| kanzure | more like, "oops a reorg happened, and the original deposit into the site is no longer in the blockchain (and instead those outputs are spent some other way by the original depositor), and you just let the depositor withdraw BTC from your site..." | 06:41 |
| kanzure | (which as you can imagine is not a sustainable or good business practice) | 06:42 |
| fenn | but how would anyone be able to predict and thus exploit that? | 06:44 |
| fenn | if they can't exploit it, it's just noise | 06:44 |
| fenn | the exchange would want to be able to detect that their blockchain model is more up-to-date with global consensus than the user, so presumably they'd spend more on bandwidth and cpu than the user to counter that scenario | 06:46 |
| fenn | global longest-difficulty | 06:46 |
| fenn | also you'd want to ban users that repeatedly deposit/withdraw huge amounts in a spammy way, since they're probably trying to exploit this | 06:48 |
| kanzure | that sounds like a sane thing to do, sure | 06:48 |
| kanzure | another option is to increase the number of confirms that you wait before you let the user do anything with their deposits or payment or w/e | 06:48 |
| kanzure | as for your prediction question.... https://people.xiph.org/~greg/attack_success.html | 06:48 |
| fenn | or implement a fixed percentage deposit/withdrawal fee proportional to the reorg rate | 06:49 |
| kanzure | hmm i don't think proportional to the reorg rate is the right thing there, but i see what you mean. | 06:49 |
| fenn | the rate is variable depending on the age of the transaction | 06:49 |
| kanzure | and the BTC size | 06:50 |
| kanzure | s/size/amount | 06:50 |
| fenn | theoretically, but iirc you haven't seen any evidence of the stealthy mining pool attack idea | 06:50 |
| kanzure | anywho, in the event that a reorg happens and there's a missing transaction or something, a service should still do the right thing | 06:50 |
| kanzure | instead of just not recognizing anything happened, and then carrying on... | 06:51 |
| fenn | what is the right thing? | 06:51 |
| kanzure | depends on the exact service you are running, so my example is just going to be something like "make sure the internal balance for that user in the application is updated to reflect that they never had a deposit" | 06:52 |
| fenn | there will also be scenarios where the user loses their coins to the exchange | 06:52 |
| kanzure | s/never/that it is now invalidated | 06:52 |
| fenn | this is some terrible time-travel paradox voodoo | 06:54 |
| kanzure | yeah.... | 06:54 |
| kanzure | feels like alien technology stuff | 06:54 |
| fenn | more like quantum physics | 06:55 |
| kanzure | "oh but better be careful because reality never happened, apparently" | 06:55 |
| fenn | virtual photons n stuff | 06:55 |
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| fenn | quick hire a physicist | 06:57 |
| kanzure | "CVEs for privacy" https://github.com/openrightsgroup/common-privacy-violations | 06:58 |
| fenn | i wish people would stop talking about "privacy" and instead talk about "deanonymization" or "libel" | 06:59 |
| kanzure | anyway as you can imagine this time paradox stuff does not make bitcoin any easier to understand | 07:00 |
| fenn | wtf 1 commit with 1 file with 1 line | 07:01 |
| fenn | how do i down-vote | 07:01 |
| kanzure | whoops | 07:01 |
| kanzure | blame grr in swhack | 07:01 |
| fenn | i left swhack because it was too noisy | 07:01 |
| kanzure | sounds right | 07:02 |
| fenn | actually the time paradox stuff is good because it keeps you thinking about how the consensus algorithm is distributed | 07:03 |
| fenn | it's fundamentally different from an atomic centralized database | 07:03 |
| fenn | er, atomic is the wrong word | 07:04 |
| fenn | canonical? | 07:04 |
| kanzure | it seems to me that you can /probably/ safely assume it's a regular centralized ledger if you are only dealing with very tiny transactions, i think | 07:04 |
| kanzure | and where transaction loss is not detrimental to your operations | 07:04 |
| fenn | no, transaction size doesn't matter, it's transaction age that matters | 07:04 |
| kanzure | (not all possible services need to hold a bitcoin balance. some of them just broadcast transactions or something.) | 07:05 |
| fenn | you'd need a significant quantity of "smart" miners to go after large transactions (technically blocks with large transaction fees) but these miners don't exist yet or can't compete with dumb miners | 07:06 |
| kanzure | eligius is a well-maintained large mining pool that does some clever incentive-compatible things because luke-jr is regularly looking out for optimizations to make | 07:06 |
| fenn | well, is he doing this? | 07:07 |
| kanzure | i haven't asked. | 07:07 |
| kanzure | you can make certain assumptions that make my toy/demo/example unnecessary i'm sure, but i'm interested in the toy/demo for mostly "pie in the sky" thinking reasons | 07:08 |
| kanzure | and reasons like "why hasn't anyone implemented this sort of example yet?" | 07:08 |
| * fenn wonders if he just tickled the dragon | 07:09 | |
| kanzure | https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Eligius | 07:10 |
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| fenn | http://eligius.st/ don't work for me | 07:14 |
| fenn | it's returning a badly mime-typed 503 | 07:14 |
| kanzure | hmm back to trying to find an acceptable python integration testing framework. | 07:14 |
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| fenn | https://people.xiph.org/~greg/attack_success.html has some atrocious code in it | 07:21 |
| kanzure | emscripten generated that code | 07:23 |
| kanzure | you can tell because it says "emscripten" | 07:23 |
| fenn | i see that, but still, fuck that | 07:23 |
| fenn | this is a clear case for a simple equation | 07:23 |
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| kanzure | andytoshi: do you have a link to the equation used in https://people.xiph.org/~greg/attack_success.html ? | 07:24 |
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| fenn | do symbolic regression on the output ;P | 07:27 |
| fenn | this reminds me of some greg egan novel where they created a new universe out of a different set of computational primitives and went exploring. basically every egan novel ever | 07:32 |
| kanzure | 16:32 < justanotheruser> probability of winning is in the satoshi whitepaper and here https://people.xiph.org/~greg/attack_success.html | 07:33 |
| kanzure | page 6 https://bitcoin.org/bitcoin.pdf | 07:33 |
| kanzure | something that has been bugging me is that an attacker can exclude his deposit transaction but a withdraw transaction published by the service may still be usable... | 07:34 |
| fenn | so (hashrate_attacker/hashrate_network)^num_blocks_behind | 07:35 |
| kanzure | one option might be to include all previous outputs by the exchange in every transaction (and of course, only spend the right amount to whatever external address, while sending the rest back to the exchange). however, this will destroy any privacy benefits of using separate transactions... | 07:35 |
| fenn | are you telling me we need a 3000 line script to calculate that? | 07:36 |
| fenn | jesus | 07:36 |
| kanzure | what you should be asking is why emscripten was used | 07:36 |
| kanzure | he was probably using some source code from bitcoind for some reason | 07:36 |
| fenn | thats what i am asking | 07:36 |
| andytoshi | fenn: it's a sum, your formula is too specific | 07:36 |
| andytoshi | but no, it's not 3000 lines, there is C code in the bitcoin.pdf it's like 20 lines | 07:37 |
| kanzure | then why is gmaxwell's version 3000 lines? | 07:37 |
| andytoshi | paging through, i see a loot of boilerscript | 07:37 |
| fenn | it has a bunch of unrelated crap | 07:37 |
| andytoshi | eg `function dedup` is only used in `calculateStructAlignment` which is only used recursively by itself | 07:38 |
| fenn | anyway "see page 7 of bitcon paper" would have sufficed | 07:38 |
| kanzure | andytoshi: could you also look over my message spam in #bitcoin from a few seconds ago? | 07:40 |
| andytoshi | sure | 07:41 |
| fenn | i think satoshi's equation on page 6 is wrong anyway, it shouldn't be "1" for p <= q, it should still be (q/p)^z | 07:43 |
| fenn | but i am just a n00b what do i know | 07:43 |
| Qfwfq | Fingerprints of Tor exit nodes providing JSTOR access: http://sprunge.us/WWDB | 07:46 |
| fenn | for completeness, Luke-jr says "that wouldn't work" wrt mining stale blocks with high transaction fees | 07:48 |
| yorick | Qfwfq: <3 | 07:51 |
| fenn | "the internet treats censorship as damage and routes around it" | 07:53 |
| andytoshi | fenn: it's 1 | 07:54 |
| fenn | i guess the formulation of "will catch up" doesn't make sense, because the honest nodes can always "catch up" again, with some small probability | 07:57 |
| fenn | there's no real difference between the attacker and the rest of the network | 07:58 |
| fenn | consider a network with two nodes; which one is the attacker and which one is the honest node? | 07:58 |
| andytoshi | "will catch up" makes sense, it means there exists a time T at which the attacker's chain has same total work as the honest one | 08:00 |
| fenn | no because only blocks with more work are accepted as valid | 08:00 |
| fenn | uh, pedantry | 08:01 |
| andytoshi | ?? | 08:01 |
| andytoshi | blocks are valid if their included transactions are valid, if the work on them exceeds the required work, and the required work is correctly calculated from the chain they are included in | 08:02 |
| fenn | oh, my misunderstanding/unfamiliarity with terminology | 08:03 |
| fenn | what's it called when a node looks at blocks and picks the one with the most work? | 08:03 |
| andytoshi | i don't think there's a term for that, we say things like "determining the true history" which is obvs not good terminology :) | 08:05 |
| fenn | maybe "finding consensus" or "consensus chain"? | 08:05 |
| andytoshi | yeah, that's better, "determining the consensus history" | 08:09 |
| fenn | true/false there can exist two chains with equal proof of work | 08:10 |
| fenn | o great kanzoracle hear my prayers | 08:12 |
| * fenn goes back to squinting at hieroglyphics | 08:13 | |
| andytoshi | there can, the way bitcoin measures proof-of-work | 08:13 |
| andytoshi | in fact almost all single-block forks are of this nature | 08:13 |
| fenn | hm ok i was thinking proof of work was some large integer value | 08:15 |
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| fenn | is length of difficulty just counting the number of F's in all the hash? | 08:16 |
| fenn | hashes* | 08:16 |
| andytoshi | no, it computes a target [0, T] that the hash has to fall into, when intepreted as a 256-bit number | 08:18 |
| andytoshi | and T is recalculated every 2016 blocks so that the last 2016 blocks, had they used target T, would've taken 2 weeks | 08:19 |
| andytoshi | (by multiplying T by <2 weeks>/<actual time for last 2016 blocks>) | 08:19 |
| andytoshi | and this target is included in the blockheader for each block, and has to be exactly correct for the block to be a valid part of its chain | 08:20 |
| fenn | hm maybe i meant number of 0's | 08:20 |
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| fenn | i didnt mean "how do you find the network difficulty rate" i meant "how do you find the length of the chain" | 08:22 |
| andytoshi | there is a value T in each block ... 2^256/T is the expected time (in hash attempts) to find each block, so you sum up all the 2^256/T's | 08:23 |
| fenn | if anything within [0, T] qualifies as valid, then any chain with an equal number of valid block has equal length? | 08:23 |
| andytoshi | the actual value of the hash has to be ≤ T, but even if it's super tiny this is irrelevant, all that's checked is whether it's less than T | 08:23 |
| andytoshi | yup | 08:23 |
| fenn | so why do they say "length of difficulty" instead of just "length of chain" | 08:23 |
| andytoshi | exactly, except when you cross difficulty-periods | 08:23 |
| andytoshi | because when the difficulty changes, the T values change | 08:24 |
| andytoshi | so long chains can have different total work even with same number of blocks | 08:24 |
| fenn | wouldnt their blocks be considered invalid because they had the wrong target? | 08:25 |
| andytoshi | no, if they are different chains their blocks might have different timestamps, so they'd have different "correct targets" | 08:25 |
| kanzure | haha time travel | 08:26 |
| fenn | literally | 08:26 |
| andytoshi | each block has a (miner-determined) timestamp in it which is used to compute "<2 weeks>/<actual time for last 2016 blocks>" in the diffchange equation | 08:26 |
| andytoshi | so "actual time" is a bad term, should be "miner-claimed time" :) | 08:26 |
| maaku | with a lot of leeway... | 08:27 |
| fenn | do people forge timestamps in practice? | 08:27 |
| maaku | it would be stupid for them not to | 08:28 |
| fenn | why even call it timestamps if it's just an arbitrary number | 08:28 |
| maaku | any miner working on the first or last block of an adjustment period can guarantee 0.5% more income for the next 2k blocks by lying on their timestamps | 08:28 |
| fenn | back in the real world we have an incentive to make timestamps as accurate as possible | 08:29 |
| maaku | fenn: it isn't arbitrary. it's roughly +/- 2hrs of actual time | 08:29 |
| maaku | fenn: there are incentives here too | 08:29 |
| maaku | it just doesn't result in a clock that is more than a few hours in sync | 08:29 |
| fenn | timelikestamps | 08:30 |
| fenn | this is an awful diagram http://en.bitcoinwiki.org/images/thumb/4/41/Mining.png/500px-Mining.png | 08:37 |
| fenn | this whole page is terrible; i'd rewrite it if i were more sure of how stuff actually works | 08:42 |
| fenn | http://en.bitcoinwiki.org/Mining | 08:42 |
| fenn | it reads like someone ran it through google translate a couple times | 08:43 |
| maaku | *the whole wiki is terrible | 08:44 |
| maaku | fixed that for you | 08:44 |
| fenn | thanks | 08:44 |
| maaku | did you know you have to pay the admin to get edit rights? | 08:44 |
| fenn | welcome to our brave new cryptocurrency world | 08:45 |
| maaku | f$*k that | 08:45 |
| fenn | why do people still use it then | 08:45 |
| fenn | oh bitcoin.it is different | 08:47 |
| maaku | oh ok | 08:51 |
| maaku | well that explains why this one exists :) | 08:51 |
| fenn | i'm dreading the proliferation of unicode TLD's and domains | 08:54 |
| fenn | see here's a perfect situation for a distributed trust metric | 08:55 |
| fenn | there's no reason my browser should have to rely on the meatware to detect spammy domains | 08:56 |
| kanzure | i have edit rights and i didn't pay nothing | 09:01 |
| kanzure | maaku: were you following this conversation in #bitcoin a few minutes ago? i am interested in feedback http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/irc/bitcoin/reorgs.log.txt | 09:03 |
| maaku | I'm not on #bitcoin; is there a one-sentence summary q? | 09:04 |
| kanzure | in these logs i am proposing that every bitcoin-using service/company should correctly handle reorgs by using a transaction that references all deposited unspents, and that without doing this you have a good recipe for losing reserves. | 09:05 |
| kanzure | and that every withdrawal should reference this single consolidated tx out that references the deposited unspents | 09:05 |
| kanzure | because if a deposit goes missing you want withdrawals to go missing. anything else would be inappropriate. so it's just my thoughts on implementation details etc. | 09:05 |
| maaku | fees would be insane | 09:05 |
| kanzure | i think there's a way to do this sort of transaction without directly referencing all previous deposited unspents, you just need it referenced in the history tree somewhere | 09:06 |
| maaku | well you can just have one internal token input/output | 09:06 |
| maaku | you don't have to reference them all | 09:06 |
| maaku | impose transaction serialization yourself by having a single input which is used as a semaphore | 09:06 |
| kanzure | "the rule is basically: you should never allow a withdrawal from an unspent output that is unrelated to the latest set of deposits" | 09:06 |
| kanzure | "unrelated" is not quite the right word | 09:07 |
| kanzure | i think semaphore is probably more accurate...? | 09:07 |
| maaku | sounds too complicated | 09:07 |
| kanzure | but you see the problem though, right? | 09:07 |
| maaku | no, i just gave a simple solution | 09:07 |
| maaku | stick 1 btc in an output | 09:07 |
| maaku | every exchange transaction involves (successive verisons of) that output | 09:08 |
| maaku | and each transaction spend the deposits which have accumulated since the last | 09:08 |
| kanzure | so your scheme puts all deposited BTC in a single address? | 09:09 |
| kanzure | i mean, a single key in control of all the unspent outputs | 09:10 |
| maaku | what? no | 09:14 |
| maaku | there's just one output that gets recycled on every transaction | 09:14 |
| maaku | which forceably serializes the txns | 09:14 |
| kanzure | yep, okay, that's what i proposed in that log excerpt | 09:18 |
| kanzure | cool | 09:18 |
| kanzure | fenn: "Mystery trader buys all Europe's cocoa 17 Jul 2010 The purchase was enough to move the entire global cocoa market, sending the price to the highest level since 1977, and triggering rumours and intrigue in the City. It is unclear which person, or group of traders, was behind the deal, but it was the largest single cocoa trade for 14 years. The cocoa beans, which are sitting in warehouses either in The Netherlands, Hamburg, or closer to ... | 09:21 |
| kanzure | ... home in London, Liverpool or Humberside is equivalent to the entire supply of the commodity in Europe, and would fill more than five Titanics. They are worth £658 million." http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/markets/7895242/Mystery-trader-buys-all-Europes-cocoa.html | 09:21 |
| kanzure | someone's got a chocolate problem | 09:21 |
| fenn | i've got a chocolate probem | 09:22 |
| maaku | someon cornered the market | 09:22 |
| maaku | i tihnk we all have chocolate problems now | 09:22 |
| fenn | what's the expiration date on a cocoa bean | 09:23 |
| fenn | maybe its reptilians from sirius B | 09:24 |
| fenn | In one of the Race's bases in Siberia, morale is at an all time low. The weather is a truly miserable condition from the hot one the Lizards are used to, and the Race's soldiers feel they're constantly being sent to their deaths by incompetent commanders. Many have fallen into abusing ginger, which works as a narcotic for them, even though it has been outlawed by Atvar's orders (such disobedience | 09:26 |
| fenn | would have been considered unthinkable before they came to Earth). | 09:26 |
| fenn | s/ginger/chocolate/ | 09:27 |
| kanzure | hmm what were those changes to paperbot from yesterday | 09:27 |
| kanzure | i didn't look. /me goes to look | 09:27 |
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| kanzure | all of this stuff reminds me of doc brown's chain reactions: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KJRh-37H4fA | 09:45 |
| fenn | kanzure i think you should write up your proposal for how to deal with reorganizations | 09:45 |
| fenn | the log is kinda rambly and i don't know enough about transactions yet to really understand what you're saying | 09:46 |
| kanzure | i think it would be more obvious to if you had a good intuition about how current wallets are implemented and how people often create transactions at the moment | 09:47 |
| fenn | 1) description of the attack 2) description of the loss-avoidance scheme 3) market effects and incentives resulting from implementing 2 | 09:47 |
| kanzure | "oh you want a withdrawal? sure have some free money (also we are now debiting your internal account on our site)" | 09:48 |
| kanzure | but the problem with this is that in the event of a reorg, the deposit may no longer exist but your withdrawal sure does | 09:48 |
| fenn | i meant a whitepaper, not telling me over irc | 09:48 |
| fenn | doesn't have to be latex or whatever | 09:48 |
| kanzure | oh man this is sounding like work | 09:48 |
| fenn | sorry | 09:49 |
| kanzure | hmm | 09:49 |
| kanzure | maybe an email to bitcoin-development | 09:49 |
| fenn | the attack would probably involve 2 "users" | 09:49 |
| fenn | accounts really | 09:50 |
| kanzure | oh the 2 users thing in the logs was just a reference to a way to bypass one of the proposed schemes | 09:50 |
| kanzure | my original proposal was to link all deposits with all withdrawals | 09:50 |
| fenn | right, but it's important to keep in mind | 09:50 |
| kanzure | and i was trying to weaken it to be just "all deposits from that one user" but this doesn't work because in some cases a user can withdraw more than they deposited anyway | 09:50 |
| kanzure | (actually that reason might be wrong. there's possibly a better reason that i am forgetting at the moment.) | 09:51 |
| fenn | money laundring/anonymization schemes want to do the opposite of this, so you'd have to wait some period to be certain there are no reorgs | 09:51 |
| kanzure | "just wait 6 blocks" is what the consensus advice has been so far to other developers | 09:51 |
| fenn | yeah usually the point of an exchange is to send or receive money | 09:52 |
| kanzure | it's not just for exchanges though, this is broadly applicable to many bitcoin services | 09:52 |
| fenn | i dunno what a service is | 09:52 |
| kanzure | an exchange is a service | 09:52 |
| kanzure | bitcoin-using companies/services/things | 09:52 |
| kanzure | applications? | 09:52 |
| fenn | is there a valid use case for withdrawing deposits less than 6 blocks old? | 09:53 |
| kanzure | my threat model assumes adversaries that can generate 6 blocks pretty easily | 09:54 |
| kanzure | "in the event of a disappearance of a deposit, like during a reorg with some unprobably-high-but-otherwise-happening depth, it is important that withdrawals become invalidated because otherwise you are giving away money" | 09:55 |
| fenn | oh right, some kind of denial of service to gain hashrate share | 09:55 |
| kanzure | nah just "we spent 20 billion dollars building mining equipment" and stuff | 09:55 |
| fenn | easier to fuck up the exchange's connection to the bitcoin network | 09:55 |
| kanzure | argh stop talking about exchanges | 09:56 |
| fenn | exchanges is all i know :( | 09:56 |
| kanzure | coinbase | 09:56 |
| kanzure | (the site) | 09:56 |
| fenn | easier to sabotage N miners' connections to $bitcoin_company than to buy N miners | 09:56 |
| kanzure | so one of the properties of the bitcoin network is that you don't really know easily which bitcoind client is related to a company | 09:56 |
| kanzure | unless they are hosting it on the same ip address | 09:57 |
| fenn | that doesnt seem hard to discover | 09:57 |
| kanzure | or unless you are monitoring an overwhelmingly large chunk of the bitcoin network directly and can identify which p2p nodes in the network are broadcasting company-related transactions earlier than the rest of the network | 09:57 |
| fenn | .wik coinbase | 09:57 |
| yoleaux | "Coinbase is a bitcoin wallet and exchange service headquartered in San Francisco California, founded by Brian Armstrong and Fred Ehrsam. Users of Coinbase can buy and sell bitcoin at the current market rate with a bank transfer in both the United States and eighteen European countries for a fee of about 1% of the value of the transaction." — http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coinbase | 09:57 |
| kanzure | i would hesitate to call coinbase.com an exchange | 09:58 |
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| kanzure | https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Coinbase | 09:58 |
| fenn | ok there are two kinds of exchanges, BTC-BTC exchanges and BTC-fiat exchanges | 09:58 |
| kanzure | "The coinbase is the content of the 'input' of a generation transaction. While regular transactions use the 'inputs' section to refer to their parent transaction outputs, a generation transaction has no parent, and creates new coins from nothing." | 09:58 |
| kanzure | no that's not what i meant | 09:58 |
| kanzure | i mean, yes you can buy and sell bitcoin on coinbase.com, that's true... | 09:58 |
| kanzure | but there's no order book that you are looking at | 09:58 |
| kanzure | and you can only buy/sell you can't make an order above whatever price coinbase.com offers you | 09:59 |
| kanzure | s/above/above or below | 09:59 |
| fenn | i hate when people name things after domain-specific terminology | 09:59 |
| kanzure | blockchain.info is also guilty of this | 09:59 |
| kanzure | and chain.com | 09:59 |
| fenn | unspent-txo.com | 10:00 |
| fenn | bitcoinwallet.net | 10:00 |
| fenn | or whatever | 10:00 |
| kanzure | yeah... | 10:00 |
| kanzure | as you can imagine the name blockchain.info has caused a lot of problems with introducing people to the concepts | 10:00 |
| kanzure | "so you mean there is a company that maintains the blockchain?" | 10:01 |
| kanzure | "sigh.... no. but yes that company exists.... i am not denying their existence." | 10:01 |
| fenn | there really needs to be some kind of interactive game where you buy and sell fake stuff with fake bitcoins and see what's going on in the servers and what information is transmitted around] | 10:02 |
| kanzure | there's testnet and regtest for testing bitcoin things | 10:02 |
| fenn | because right now 99% of what's happening is invisible | 10:02 |
| kanzure | and there's some games that claim to be related to bitcoin but they are just games (they don't actually implement bitcoin stuff) | 10:03 |
| fenn | add invisibility to faulty mental models and incentives for confusion and you get confusion | 10:03 |
| kanzure | http://www.beepboopbitcoin.com/ | 10:03 |
| kanzure | there's lots of content published everywhere but the problem is that it's faster and cheaper to create bullshit | 10:04 |
| fenn | it doesnt have to actually implement bitcoin; it would be hard to follow ECDSA calculations anyway | 10:04 |
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| fenn | reading "why johnny can't encrypt" illustrates how hard it is to convey accurate metaphors for cryptographic operations | 10:05 |
| fenn | why is coinbase not an exchange? they just have a manually-operated buy/sell setpoint | 10:08 |
| fenn | could write one in 5 minutes | 10:08 |
| kanzure | i suppose wikipedia calls it one so i should too | 10:08 |
| kanzure | coinbase.com has a few other features that are not exchange-related, at least, like wallets and merchant payment processing | 10:09 |
| kanzure | (typical paypal.com feature-set for integration with iframes or whatever else) | 10:09 |
| fenn | so they do BTC-BTC and BTC-fiat | 10:09 |
| kanzure | i don't know what BTC-BTC is | 10:09 |
| kanzure | they let you send BTC to other users using their internal ledger | 10:10 |
| kanzure | does that count? | 10:10 |
| fenn | trading bitcoins within a private site without doing transactions on the bitcoin network, to get around the 10 minute block latency | 10:10 |
| kanzure | ah okay. yes. | 10:10 |
| kanzure | but they have like a 4 day waiting period after every operation i think | 10:10 |
| fenn | also so people dont have to set up their own client | 10:10 |
| fenn | wtf 4 days? | 10:10 |
| kanzure | *after every buy/sell | 10:11 |
| kanzure | yeah, ACH | 10:11 |
| fenn | ok that's because of the retarded banking system that's been around since 1890 | 10:11 |
| kanzure | or er it may be ACH... i dunno. | 10:11 |
| fenn | .wik ACH | 10:11 |
| yoleaux | "Disambiguation: ACH" — http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ACH | 10:11 |
| fenn | rawr | 10:11 |
| fenn | .wik automated clearing house | 10:11 |
| yoleaux | "Automated Clearing House (ACH) is an electronic network for financial transactions in the United States. ACH processes large volumes of credit and debit transactions in batches. ACH credit transfers include direct deposit payroll and vendor payments." — http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Automated_clearing_house | 10:11 |
| kanzure | yoleaux should make a guess when there's a disambiguation required | 10:12 |
| fenn | nevermind | 10:12 |
| fenn | i have a feeling we're putting more thought into the bitcoin network and exchange operator policies than was ever put into "real" banking | 10:13 |
| kanzure | "sure just have my buddy audit their books i'm sure everything is fine" | 10:14 |
| fenn | Some common Standard Entry Class (SEC) codes: | 10:14 |
| fenn | SEC code, that's not confusing at all | 10:14 |
| kanzure | a lot of banking and accouning quickly intersects professions like law | 10:16 |
| kanzure | because they are all entangled in this big messy confusion | 10:16 |
| kanzure | with lots of principle agent problems and stuff | 10:16 |
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| fenn | "Coinbase has received US$31 million in capital investments, nearly one-third of the total publicly disclosed investment in Bitcoin companies made as of February 2014" | 10:18 |
| fenn | thats smaller than i expected | 10:18 |
| kanzure | hmm well they just raised $60M like yesterday | 10:19 |
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| bbrittain | I've been kinda bored for the last hour, and I started looking for bio-inspired fiction. holy shit, nobody thinks it's gonna be a good thing | 10:54 |
| bbrittain | It's all so... depressing | 10:54 |
| kanzure | i have really not seen any great biology-inspired fiction | 10:55 |
| kanzure | maaaybe some stuff on orion's arm | 10:55 |
| kanzure | http://orionsarm.com/ | 10:55 |
| bbrittain | zomg, it's like stepping back into the late 90s internet | 10:57 |
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| fenn | bbrittain: greg egan has some interesting books | 10:58 |
| bbrittain | fenn: I've heard mixed reviews of egan's stuff, so I've always refrained | 10:58 |
| bbrittain | worth it? | 10:58 |
| fenn | i liked it | 10:58 |
| bbrittain | a series/book in particular? | 10:58 |
| fenn | teranesia, chaff | 10:58 |
| kanzure | greg egan's biology stuff never seemed particularly impressive | 10:59 |
| kanzure | but i haven't looked at those.. what's in them? | 10:59 |
| fenn | i forget which is what, it all gets mushed up in my memory | 11:00 |
| bbrittain | "Chaff — An agent is sent to kill a geneticist who is working in a drug lord-controlled stronghold in the jungles of Colombia, and working on important brain-altering research." | 11:00 |
| kanzure | was that his short story one? | 11:01 |
| kanzure | "white knights" etc | 11:01 |
| fenn | yes | 11:01 |
| bbrittain | I saw some mention of this biofiction film festival on twiterr a few weeks ago, I watched a couple of the winning ones. Essentially boils down to "don't fuck with nature. nature is special" | 11:01 |
| kanzure | yeah, it's totally boring stuff that has been done hundreds of itmes | 11:02 |
| kanzure | *times | 11:02 |
| kanzure | i think the problem is that it's just genuinely hard to write good biology-inspired fiction | 11:02 |
| kanzure | biology is hard enough as it is | 11:02 |
| bbrittain | I read ribofunk, which I thought had mixed stories, but good scifi qualities | 11:02 |
| kanzure | who was the author that used a "one short story per new technology introduced" strategy? | 11:03 |
| kanzure | hm. | 11:03 |
| bbrittain | I liked windup girl | 11:04 |
| bbrittain | roo'd was a meh for writting, story was good | 11:04 |
| bbrittain | hmmm... the fact that I can't think of anything else is telling | 11:06 |
| bbrittain | makes me want to give it a go, but it is such a time commitment | 11:06 |
| bbrittain | and I have better things to be doing | 11:06 |
| kanzure | make them very very short stories | 11:07 |
| fenn | various levels of neurosciencey biotech stuff: ted chiang's "understand", john mcloughlin "the helix and the sword, joan slonczewski "the brain plague", cory doctorow "0wnz0red" | 11:07 |
| fenn | "the helix and the sword" is more about post-earth space colonization | 11:08 |
| fenn | hard to reconcile the huge number of books i havent read with the books i have read, so i have a bias to assume that i've read the good ones :\ | 11:09 |
| kanzure | you can also factor in recommendations from your peer group though | 11:10 |
| fenn | hugo and nebula awards are pretty reliable | 11:10 |
| kanzure | it is unlikely for terribly relevant books to have escaped our collective attention for a while now | 11:10 |
| fenn | anything not SF is not worth reading :P | 11:10 |
| bbrittain | hugo nebula rarely give false positives, but I bet they give a whole bunch of false negatives :P | 11:10 |
| fenn | oh "rainbows end" by vernor vinge has some terribly bad biotech references | 11:11 |
| kanzure | "accelerando" if you can tolerate it (apparently some people in here can) | 11:11 |
| bbrittain | ugh, and some terribly bad codec/network latency tech | 11:11 |
| kanzure | "neverness" had biology stuff heh | 11:11 |
| fenn | no it doesn't | 11:11 |
| fenn | it's all about monks and space piots | 11:11 |
| fenn | pilots* | 11:11 |
| fenn | and "entities" | 11:11 |
| kanzure | what about the agathanians? | 11:12 |
| bbrittain | movie recs? | 11:14 |
| kanzure | a whole bunch of junk | 11:14 |
| kanzure | i think the most biologically accurate you could hope for is like x-men or something | 11:15 |
| * bbrittain likes x-men | 11:16 | |
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| archels | which of Stross' works should I read after Accelerando? | 11:30 |
| fenn | his obituary | 11:32 |
| fenn | oops did i say that | 11:33 |
| fenn | "singularity sky" won a Hugo award so there's that | 11:40 |
| kanzure | i need more of you guys to read more vernor vinge please | 11:48 |
| bbrittain | I love about half of vinges stuff | 11:48 |
| bbrittain | the other half... :/ | 11:48 |
| kanzure | i started on that other half | 11:49 |
| fenn | which half | 11:49 |
| kanzure | a deepness in the sky | 11:49 |
| yorick | yeah, Rainbow's End was terrible | 11:50 |
| fenn | i read true names; it was more about transhumanism and becoming one with the computer network than it was about anonymity and hacker culture | 11:50 |
| yorick | fenn: was it the good half? | 11:51 |
| fenn | um, it might have been original in 1980 but now it just sounds like every hollywood "cyberspace teenage hacker" plot | 11:52 |
| fenn | also the illustrations were really bad | 11:52 |
| kanzure | nihei is the only appropriate illustrator choice | 11:53 |
| fenn | this wasn't that sort of book | 11:53 |
| kanzure | don't impose your fascist manga ideas on me | 11:54 |
| kanzure | er... or something. | 11:54 |
| fenn | i mean, nihei's works set on 21st century earth aren't particularly amazing | 11:54 |
| kanzure | "books can be like, whatever we want. just look at borges' junk." | 11:55 |
| fenn | nihei would be a good illustrator for borges | 11:56 |
| fenn | in general, if there's new architecture or bodily forms | 11:57 |
| fenn | the premise of True Names was that cyberspace looked like your average dungeon crawler | 11:58 |
| kanzure | "from now on every illustration is tensegrity" | 11:58 |
| kanzure | "and hexagons" | 11:58 |
| fenn | tread lightly, lest ye offend the trans-aetheric modalities | 11:59 |
| kanzure | why aren't there any scifi authors in here trying to exploit this channel | 12:01 |
| yorick | at least three of us are stross, probably | 12:01 |
| yorick | but it's not *that* popular | 12:02 |
| kanzure | i strongly doubt stross is in here | 12:02 |
| yorick | http://www.antipope.org/charlie/blog-static/2013/02/rokos-basilisk-wants-you.html | 12:02 |
| fenn | because you crosspost everything to tt | 12:03 |
| yorick | yeah, he's probably not here | 12:03 |
| kanzure | for other reasons too though | 12:03 |
| kanzure | like he's gone off on the crazy end anyway | 12:04 |
| fenn | is roko's basilisk just pascal's mugging | 12:04 |
| kanzure | (social justice outrage machining) | 12:04 |
| fenn | heh "if people get the afterlife they believe they will get, missionaries should be shot on sight." | 12:06 |
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| fenn | huh "In 1995, Nick Szabo proposed a challenge to build a macroscale replicator from Lego robot kits and similar basic parts." | 12:15 |
| fenn | i probably already pasted that in this channel | 12:16 |
| fenn | corollary to Saunt Lora's Proposition: any unique insight you thought you should have known by know has actually been pasted into ##hplusroadmap | 12:18 |
| fenn | by now* | 12:19 |
| kanzure | there was a handful of usenet posts about self-relication | 12:19 |
| kanzure | *self-replication | 12:19 |
| fenn | "i am a relic" <- self-relication | 12:20 |
| kanzure | i'm sure that quote is talking about a szabo usenet email | 12:20 |
| fenn | it was to the extropians mailing list | 12:20 |
| kanzure | .title http://szabo.best.vwh.net/nano.musings.html | 12:20 |
| yoleaux | Nick Szabo -- Nanotechnology, Self-Reproduction & Agile Manufacturing | 12:20 |
| kanzure | damn | 12:20 |
| fenn | http://web.archive.org/web/20060307220916/http://www.lucifer.com/~sean/N-FX/macro.html | 12:20 |
| kanzure | hmm i don't remember "extropians@waterville.warwick.com" | 12:21 |
| kanzure | ah the next entry on that page is the usenet one at least | 12:22 |
| kanzure | "In 1998, Chris Phoenix suggested a general idea for a macroscale replicator on the sci.nanotech newsgroup, operating in a pool of ultraviolet-cured liquid plastic, selectively solidifying the plastic to form solid parts. Computation could be done by fluidic logic. Power for the process could be supplied by a pressurized source of the liquid." | 12:22 |
| fenn | how does it generate UV light | 12:23 |
| kanzure | well according to kragenjaviersita this is not one of our interests | 12:23 |
| kanzure | (or his for that matter) | 12:23 |
| kanzure | "Alfredo DeSantis … spoke on “Graph decompositions and secret-sharing schemes,” a silly topic which brings joy to combinatorists and yawns to everyone else." | 12:24 |
| kanzure | .title http://www.scottaaronson.com/blog/?p=2059 | 12:24 |
| yoleaux | Shtetl-Optimized » Blog Archive » What does the NSA think of academic cryptographers? Recently-declassified document provides clues | 12:24 |
| fenn | derr, somehow i got stuck in a dependency tree: http://web.archive.org/web/20060313114452/http://www.lucifer.com/~sean/N-FX/depend.html | 12:24 |
| fenn | wtf they were talking about stewart platforms for self-replication | 12:25 |
| kanzure | "I think I have hammered home my point often enough that I shall regard it as proved (by emphatic enunciation): the tendency at IACR meetings is for academic scientists (mathematicians, computer scientists, engineers, and philosophers masquerading as theoretical computer scientists) to present commendable research papers (in their own areas) which might affect cryptology at some future time or (more likely) in some other world. Naturally this ... | 12:25 |
| fenn | i guess i independently came up with the same idea, but for non-nanotech replication | 12:25 |
| kanzure | ... is not anathema to us." | 12:25 |
| kanzure | linked from that page... http://anotherlook.ca/ "n our time one of the dominant paradigms in cryptographic research goes by the name "provable security." This is the notion that the best (or, some would say, the only) way to have confidence in the security of a cryptographic protocol is to have a mathematically rigorous theorem that establishes some sort of guarantee of security (defined in a suitable way) under certain conditions and given ... | 12:30 |
| kanzure | ... certain assumptions. The purpose of this website is to encourage the emergence of a more skeptical and less credulous attitude toward this notion and to contribute to a process of critical analysis of the positive and negative features of the "provable security" paradigm." | 12:30 |
| fenn | merciless crossposting | 12:31 |
| kanzure | http://eprint.iacr.org/2004/152.pdf "We discuss the reasons why the search for mathematically convincing theoretical evidence to support the security of public-key systems has been an important theme of researchers. But we argue that the theorem-proof paradigm of theoretical mathematics is of limited relevance here and often leads to papers that are confusing and misleading." | 12:31 |
| kanzure | yep | 12:31 |
| Qfwfq | plz move discussion 2 ####transhuman-bitcoin-wizards | 12:32 |
| heath | music... | 12:33 |
| heath | promodj.com/tracks | 12:33 |
| juri_ | kanzure: what is that pdf editing library you're working with? | 12:57 |
| kanzure | https://github.com/kanzure/pdfparanoia | 12:57 |
| kanzure | yeah i'm not parsing the pdf format | 12:57 |
| kanzure | just manual editing in code | 12:57 |
| kanzure | in other words, don't do as i do | 12:57 |
| fenn | def parse_pdf: """Parses a PDF via pdfminer.""" | 13:01 |
| kanzure | oh | 13:01 |
| kanzure | well, the editing part is manual | 13:01 |
| kanzure | at the time when i looked pdfminer was not capable of writing pdf | 13:02 |
| fenn | probably not | 13:02 |
| fenn | so do you just delete the compressed watermark? | 13:03 |
| kanzure | yep | 13:03 |
| fenn | you know it seems that a lot of stupid file format incompatibility stuff could be solved by better data structure visualization tools | 13:04 |
| fenn | right now we're just monkeys looking at ascii text scratching our heads | 13:04 |
| kanzure | there's theoretically a pdf specification and parsers/generators that might implement it | 13:05 |
| kanzure | but i wasn't able to find a python-compatible one too easily | 13:05 |
| kanzure | and i was not interested in writing my own at the time | 13:05 |
| fenn | hmm i could have used pdfminer in the past | 13:06 |
| fenn | if it actually does what it claims | 13:06 |
| fenn | i ended up rendering to a bitmap and doing OCR :P | 13:07 |
| kanzure | you may also be interested in pdfquery | 13:07 |
| Qfwfq | With PDFs, you have to run through decompression before getting ASCII text. Structure visualisation isn't much more useful than any other structured parse, I think. | 13:07 |
| Qfwfq | Such as that you'd get with PDFMiner? I can't remember it's API that well. | 13:07 |
| Qfwfq | Funnily enough the PDF specification was closed until like five years ago I think | 13:07 |
| kanzure | so far most academic pdfs that i have found have just been using "deflate" for their compression | 13:08 |
| kanzure | but i'm sure some nasty publisher somewhere decided to use some other method | 13:09 |
| yorick | looking at it, I think pdftotext does slightly better at extracting text than pdfminer (for example pdftotext handles broken words well) | 13:10 |
| kanzure | entirely possible | 13:10 |
| fenn | not in my experience | 13:10 |
| kanzure | i don't think pdfminer was made to do text extraction things like that | 13:11 |
| kanzure | i mean, word recombination and stuff | 13:11 |
| Qfwfq | Generation is more of a concern here | 13:16 |
| Qfwfq | Given we want valid PDFs after modification, and it has lots of numeric pointers to objects at positions in the file | 13:16 |
| kanzure | yeah i think technically the output from pdfparanoia is sometimes "invalid" but for some reason various pdf readers still support rendering anyway | 13:17 |
| Qfwfq | s/numeric pointers to/byte offsets of/ | 13:19 |
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| kragenjaviersita | Qfwfq: the PDF specification was never very closed | 14:50 |
| kragenjaviersita | I mean there were undocumented features of Adobe Reader that Acrobat Whatever would exploit | 14:50 |
| kragenjaviersita | but those were mostly details | 14:51 |
| kanzure | ParahSailin_: can you find me the "bitvc qq chatroom" | 14:51 |
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| yorick | bbrittain: I liked Diaspora and Permutation City from Greg Egan the best, but the other two recommendations are about the only ones I haven't read | 15:06 |
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| fenn | but those aren't about biology at all | 15:15 |
| yorick | oh right, that was a requirement | 15:18 |
| yorick | hm, one of the Orthogonal books has some weird alternative-universe biology, I guess | 15:19 |
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| yorick | how about Peter Watts (Blindsight?). he's a biologist, after all | 15:20 |
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| bbrittain | I'm actually reading Blindsight right now! | 15:27 |
| bbrittain | It's got some cool neuro stuff, nothing more I think | 15:27 |
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| bbrittain | one of my roommates is eating dunkin donuts and drinking a martini, the other is drinking soylent with a glass of wine | 15:29 |
| bbrittain | this can only be described as something approaching post-modern-absurdism | 15:31 |
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| fenn | which one do you think will live longer | 15:33 |
| * kanzure wonders why code has not materialized on his screen | 15:34 | |
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| fenn | you forgot to connect the brain-computer-interface | 15:36 |
| kanzure | nah i did all the other stuff first and left the "???" for future-me | 15:37 |
| kanzure | which was not a good plan | 15:37 |
| bbrittain | fenn: soylent/glass-o-wine | 15:38 |
| bbrittain | soylent is actually not that bad | 15:38 |
| bbrittain | bland/boring/marketing-hype | 15:38 |
| fenn | i know, i invented it | 15:39 |
| fenn | the waffle form is more palatable tho | 15:41 |
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| kanzure | still having trouble finding a gevent-compatible unittest suite thingy | 15:46 |
| fenn | how about just http://stackoverflow.com/a/23036785 | 15:53 |
| fenn | .title | 15:53 |
| yoleaux | unit testing - How to test Python 3.4 asyncio code? - Stack Overflow | 15:53 |
| fenn | decorator to run stuff | 15:54 |
| kanzure | "For you acceptance tests you could start the server in a separate process and send SIGINT when you're done" | 15:58 |
| kanzure | but then how do you insert your mocks >:( | 15:58 |
| kanzure | http://stackoverflow.com/a/11945119/687783 | 15:59 |
| bbrittain | "fenn: i know, i invented it" elaborate? | 16:02 |
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| fenn | typical quantified self hyper-standardization of intakes scenario | 16:07 |
| fenn | rhinehart independently reinvented it, whatever | 16:08 |
| fenn | i'm sure hundreds of other have come up with the same idea | 16:08 |
| fenn | basically, "why do only lab rats get repeatable nutrition?" | 16:09 |
| fenn | or, "why do i have to put effort into thinking about food" | 16:09 |
| fenn | it's really complicated and complex | 16:10 |
| kanzure | and even if you do think about it lots, | 16:10 |
| kanzure | it will still turn out that something is totally not bio-available the way you have been eating it or something | 16:10 |
| kanzure | s/something/something important | 16:11 |
| fenn | i dont trust the RDI values anyway | 16:11 |
| bbrittain | hence why I tried it for just an experiment, it's the aestetic which is apealing, not the reality. | 16:13 |
| fenn | ah but you havent tried it as a waffle | 16:16 |
| fenn | also the soylent formulation is too carb-heavy and has crap oils | 16:17 |
| fenn | a simple reformulation is to blender up oats, concentrated milk, and an egg; cook in waffle iron with a slab of butter; serve with green tea | 16:18 |
| fenn | the butter goes in the waffle iron... | 16:19 |
| fenn | needs potassium and magnesium that still | 16:19 |
| fenn | and C | 16:21 |
| fenn | bleh | 16:21 |
| kanzure | fenn did you see their subdomain thingy here http://diy.soylent.me/recipes/people-chow-301-tortilla-perfection | 16:23 |
| fenn | yes i fought with the stupid javascript webapp thing for long enough already thank you | 16:23 |
| kanzure | i didn't look very closely but it looks like they have other recipes from users for some reason | 16:24 |
| fenn | vanilla corn tortillas yuck | 16:24 |
| fenn | it's missing... all vitamins? | 16:25 |
| fenn | there's a classic study on pellagra from people eating corn tortillas without B vitamins | 16:26 |
| fenn | oh the vanilla stuff has vitamins | 16:27 |
| fenn | kanzure: the idea is you can make your own recipe and it calculates all the nutritional components (assuming you/someone else entered them already) | 16:29 |
| fenn | a glorified spreadsheet | 16:30 |
| kanzure | wow such glory | 16:31 |
| kanzure | grr sqlalchemy will force sqlite to share an in-memory database across threads | 16:33 |
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| kanzure | https://soundcloud.com/morttagua/morttagua-deeper-sunset | 17:12 |
| ebowden | kanzure: http://www.smbc-comics.com/comics/20141114.png | 17:28 |
| fenn | i tricked someone into doing uncertain future and their result was 40% likely that a super-AI has already taken over all reality | 17:30 |
| ebowden | heh | 17:31 |
| catern | uncertain future is a JAVA APPLET? | 17:32 |
| catern | what. | 17:32 |
| kanzure | yeah sorry about that | 17:40 |
| kanzure | i took too long writing a javascript implementation for them | 17:40 |
| kanzure | so they brought in this java person | 17:40 |
| kanzure | he did okay i guess, but it's just unfortunate that it had to end up a java applet | 17:41 |
| kanzure | anyway here are some screenshots: http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/irc/theuncertainfuture/?C=M | 17:41 |
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| kanzure | "The Moon is given to be moving slower than light because it remains within the "future light cone" propagating from its position at any instant." | 18:09 |
| kanzure | via nsh http://math.ucr.edu/home/baez/physics/Relativity/SpeedOfLight/FTL.html | 18:10 |
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| kanzure | http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flyby_anomaly | 18:27 |
| kanzure | "Possible explanations of the flyby anomaly include.... A dark matter halo around Earth;[8]" | 18:27 |
| kanzure | http://arxiv.org/abs/0805.2895 | 18:28 |
| kanzure | http://arxiv.org/pdf/0805.2895v4.pdf | 18:28 |
| paperbot | http://libgen.org/scimag/get.php?doi=10.1103%2FPhysRevD.79.023505 | 18:28 |
| kanzure | oh come on now you work? | 18:28 |
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| kanzure | https://soundcloud.com/morttagua/morttagua-house-mag-series-020 | 18:32 |
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| kanzure | gene_hacker: hi | 19:31 |
| gene_hacker | hello | 19:32 |
| yoleaux | 8 Nov 2014 09:16Z <nmz787> gene_hacker: solid-state electrically-actuated membrane coatings? something you could apply to a porous ceramic plate, polarise with an electric field, then gently dry or fuse in a kiln maybe (?), finally install as the last side of your vacuum chamber. When you apply power, pumping of nitrogen/gas would occur. Design goals I guess: pumping action; no/low gas permeability, tight crystal structure around … | 19:32 |
| yoleaux | the pump mechanism; electrically ... | 19:32 |
| yoleaux | 8 Nov 2014 09:17Z <nmz787> gene_hacker: ... actuated; works in dry conditions; can be fused with porous substrate forming overall no/low gas permeability | 19:32 |
| gene_hacker | already told him I'll see what we can do | 19:32 |
| gene_hacker | but yeah we might be able to do it, or something like it | 19:33 |
| kanzure | gene_hacker: suspicions of dark matter halo around earth http://arxiv.org/pdf/0805.2895v4.pdf | 19:35 |
| gene_hacker | neat | 19:47 |
| gene_hacker | now hopefully they'll turn out to be ultradense matter, because that'd be cool | 19:48 |
| kanzure | classic jojack: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xCjbZic2Tmg#t=38m10s | 19:49 |
| sheena | fenn: do you know JDM Engine, as a term for a.. type of imported engine? | 19:51 |
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| kanzure | "The attack relies primarily on the fact that a given input/output difference pattern only occurs for certain values of inputs. Usually the attack is applied in essence to the non-linear components as if they were a solid component (usually they are in fact look-up tables or sboxes). Observing the desired output difference (between two chosen or known plaintext inputs) suggests possible key values." | 20:40 |
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| dingo_ | hehe i was mentioned but i was at yosemite all weekend and my buffer can't recall it :) | 20:44 |
| gene_hacker | did you manage to pirate some thermus aquaticus? | 20:47 |
| kanzure | dingo_: it may have been about a 91 chevy sprint | 20:48 |
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| nmz787 | delinquentme: ya I think scripting, kanzure recommended to me most recently cadquery which uses freecad which uses opencascade | 21:12 |
| nmz787 | delinquentme: guy at the local FIB manufactory had a demo using freecad to slice 3d models into layers that he fed sequentially to the FIB | 21:13 |
| nmz787 | .tell delinquentme check logs ^... also you should start looking up nanofluidics... you can literally exclude chemistry from happening and stuff by just making a hallway too small, do separations by tuning surface charge of the channel and buffer make-up | 21:18 |
| yoleaux | nmz787: I'll pass your message to delinquentme. | 21:18 |
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| nmz787 | paperbot: http://iopscience.iop.org/0957-4484/20/16/165302/pdf/0957-4484_20_16_165302.pdf | 21:18 |
| nmz787 | paperbot: http://iopscience.iop.org/0957-4484/20/16/165302 | 21:19 |
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| --- Log closed Mon Nov 17 00:00:53 2014 | ||
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