| --- Log opened Mon Nov 17 00:00:53 2014 | ||
| -!- gene_hacker [~chatzilla@c-50-137-46-240.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.91 [Firefox 33.1/20141106120505]] | 00:24 | |
| -!- ThomasEgi [~thomas@2a02:810b:33f:dc18:55d4:46dd:e1a3:3dcf] has joined ##hplusroadmap | 00:25 | |
| -!- ThomasEgi [~thomas@2a02:810b:33f:dc18:55d4:46dd:e1a3:3dcf] has quit [Changing host] | 00:25 | |
| -!- ThomasEgi [~thomas@panda3d/ThomasEgi] has joined ##hplusroadmap | 00:25 | |
| -!- delinquentme [~dingo@74.61.157.78] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] | 00:38 | |
| -!- CheckDavid [uid14990@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-vzpcvxwvwpvtvmln] has joined ##hplusroadmap | 01:02 | |
| -!- pete4242 [~smuxi@boole.london.hackspace.org.uk] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] | 01:55 | |
| -!- Viper168_ [~Viper@unaffiliated/viper168] has joined ##hplusroadmap | 03:16 | |
| -!- Viper168 [~Viper@unaffiliated/viper168] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] | 03:17 | |
| -!- Viper168_ is now known as Viper168 | 03:23 | |
| -!- eudoxia [~eudoxia@r190-134-40-20.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined ##hplusroadmap | 03:44 | |
| -!- ebowden [~ebowden@147.69.147.27] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] | 04:05 | |
| -!- ebowden [~ebowden@147.69.147.27] has joined ##hplusroadmap | 04:09 | |
| -!- chris_99 [~chris_99@unaffiliated/chris-99/x-3062929] has joined ##hplusroadmap | 04:17 | |
| -!- ebowden [~ebowden@147.69.147.27] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] | 04:31 | |
| -!- qu-bit [~shroedngr@unaffiliated/barriers] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] | 05:02 | |
| fenn | flyby anomaly is probably due to an unaccounted for electric charge interacting with the earth's magnetosphere | 05:15 |
|---|---|---|
| fenn | sheena: JDM means "japanese domestic market" and usually refers to engines which were not sold in the rest of the world for marketing and logistics reasons; usually the engines people import are somehow larger or more powerful than the north american versions | 05:17 |
| -!- Zinglon [~Zinglon@D549A77D.cm-10-1a.dynamic.ziggo.nl] has joined ##hplusroadmap | 05:23 | |
| -!- Merovoth [~Merovoth@gateway/tor-sasl/merovoth] has quit [] | 05:39 | |
| fenn | Zinglon: welcome, welcome welcome | 05:49 |
| -!- chris_99 [~chris_99@unaffiliated/chris-99/x-3062929] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] | 05:53 | |
| -!- chris_99 [~chris_99@unaffiliated/chris-99/x-3062929] has joined ##hplusroadmap | 05:55 | |
| -!- snuffeluffegus [~snuff@5.150.254.180] has joined ##hplusroadmap | 05:58 | |
| Zinglon | Hello! | 06:08 |
| Zinglon | Sorry was afk a bit | 06:08 |
| fenn | what brings you to this corner of the interwebs | 06:10 |
| Zinglon | Randomly found this channel while browsing | 06:17 |
| Zinglon | A friend of mine was talking about biohacking so i decided to look it up | 06:18 |
| fenn | did you see http://waag.org/en/project/biohack-academy-1-biofactory | 06:19 |
| Zinglon | I'll check it out | 06:21 |
| Zinglon | Thank you! | 06:21 |
| kanzure | die mensen zijn erg vermakelijk | 06:24 |
| fenn | oof it's 850 euro | 06:26 |
| kanzure | there should be an hplusroadmap version of that eventually | 06:26 |
| kanzure | classes should include "defensive irc" | 06:26 |
| fenn | how do build a computer out of a dremel and a potato | 06:26 |
| kanzure | how to inject dna into bacteria by yelling | 06:27 |
| kanzure | marksmanship and dna transformation | 06:27 |
| kanzure | (that one can be jrayhawk) | 06:28 |
| kanzure | so, no to the dark matter halo, eh? | 06:29 |
| archels | where did that Dutch suddenly come from o_O | 06:29 |
| archels | or I should say Belgian because no Dutch person says "vermakelijk" | 06:30 |
| archels | unless they're being sarcastic | 06:30 |
| yorick | I have the feeling half of us are dutch or something | 06:30 |
| kanzure | weet je over "transhumanismus" op EFnet? | 06:31 |
| yorick | nee maar dat klinkt duits | 06:31 |
| kanzure | "transhumani" | 06:31 |
| yorick | what? | 06:31 |
| kanzure | een taal is als ruwe tong gebeten door boze pad | 06:31 |
| kanzure | i don't know man, i didn't take fucking classes | 06:32 |
| yorick | kanzure: we're banning you from speaking dutch ever again | 06:32 |
| archels | chuckle | 06:32 |
| Qfwfq | le mi varkiclaflo'i cu culno lo angila | 06:32 |
| kanzure | yorick: understood | 06:32 |
| yorick | Qfwfq: is this lojban | 06:32 |
| yorick | (no, but it should be!) | 06:33 |
| fenn | "a language is as rough tongue bitten by evil path"?? | 06:33 |
| yorick | fenn: I think it's a toad | 06:33 |
| yorick | Qfwfq: oh it is lojban! | 06:33 |
| yorick | Qfwfq: <3 | 06:33 |
| fenn | Germans: Oh you’re learning German? Hey, you’re not so bad at it. Don’t fuck it up though. | 06:34 |
| fenn | French: About time you learned French. | 06:34 |
| fenn | Dutch: but why would you do this | 06:34 |
| kanzure | yorick: have you met archels | 06:34 |
| yorick | kanzure: no | 06:34 |
| kanzure | well why not | 06:34 |
| yorick | reasons! | 06:34 |
| Qfwfq | Specifically, it's a Lojban translation of "May I have a box of matches?". | 06:35 |
| eudoxia | Spanish: it's my native language, but what's your excuse? | 06:35 |
| archels | yorick: aren't you near Nijmegen, actually? | 06:35 |
| yorick | archels: yeah, I have probably met people who met you | 06:35 |
| ThomasEgi | fenn, .. fins... | 06:35 |
| yorick | Qfwfq: liar | 06:35 |
| archels | haha | 06:35 |
| archels | RU? | 06:35 |
| yorick | archels: ja | 06:35 |
| archels | what programme? | 06:36 |
| yorick | computer science | 06:36 |
| archels | they still have that? I thought it was all Information Science these days | 06:36 |
| yorick | archels: whatever, they call it "informatica". they got rid of informatiekunde recently | 06:37 |
| fenn | i get the impression informatics is more about libraries and data handling, whereas computer science is applied math | 06:37 |
| yorick | fenn: the programme is called "computer science" in english | 06:38 |
| archels | huh. just a few years ago they were talking about cutting CS (because it was so small and not performing well) and putting all their eggs in Information Science | 06:38 |
| yorick | archels: their CS programme was voted the best in NL last year | 06:39 |
| fenn | who needs science when you have engineering! pah | 06:39 |
| yorick | fenn: yeah I studied a 'computer engineering' but it was secretly information sciences | 06:39 |
| archels | yeah by the students partaking in it. I don't put much weight on that | 06:39 |
| yorick | archels: true, they are idiots. | 06:39 |
| archels | :) | 06:40 |
| yorick | archels: but no other place is any better :D | 06:40 |
| archels | not so sure about that one | 06:41 |
| archels | but as my alma mater is still employing me, I should probably shut up at this point | 06:41 |
| -!- kragenjaviersita is now known as kragen | 06:41 | |
| yorick | archels: I checked utrecht, amsterdam(x2) and delft | 06:41 |
| yorick | it's possible eindhoven is better | 06:41 |
| archels | yeah, I did my first Master's in Eindhoven | 06:42 |
| archels | in the end it comes down to what you want to do with your degree | 06:42 |
| archels | if you want to do Information Sciencey stuff, then the RU is probably a good place to be | 06:43 |
| yorick | I want to get this degree over with asap, I suppose | 06:43 |
| archels | haha | 06:44 |
| archels | where to next? | 06:44 |
| fenn | now we try and take over the WORLD | 06:45 |
| yorick | no idea! | 06:45 |
| yorick | archels: oh hey you're at donders. I was there last week for an MRI thing | 06:45 |
| archels | yes | 06:46 |
| archels | I don't work with wet stuff though (people, animals or otherwise) | 06:46 |
| archels | my office is in the Huygens as well | 06:46 |
| yorick | oh right you're behind the scary door that goes "NO COFFEE FOR STUDENTS" | 06:47 |
| archels | haha yeah | 06:48 |
| archels | not sure whose great idea it was to put that up there | 06:48 |
| archels | (the coffee from that machine takes like gunk, anyway) | 06:48 |
| yorick | (the fun part is if you walk 30 meters to mercator there is great free coffee for students) | 06:48 |
| archels | Mercator has free coffee? interesting | 06:50 |
| archels | were you at the Moenenspace meeting, by the way? | 06:51 |
| yorick | technically only for ICIS people | 06:51 |
| yorick | I was not | 06:51 |
| * yorick wasn't studying there back then | 06:52 | |
| -!- Vutral [ss@mirbsd/special/Vutral] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] | 06:52 | |
| fenn | oh damn i am mixing you up with "yorik" | 06:53 |
| archels | ah right | 06:53 |
| yorick | fenn: there is a yorik? | 06:53 |
| archels | what year are you in, then? | 06:53 |
| yorick | archels: ...first :/ | 06:54 |
| fenn | yorik van havre is a freecad dev | 06:54 |
| yorick | fenn: yorick is also a LoL champion and a shakespeare character and a programming language | 06:54 |
| fenn | yes but i dont talk to them on irc | 06:55 |
| -!- superobserver [~superobse@gateway/tor-sasl/yorrick] has joined ##hplusroadmap | 06:56 | |
| -!- superobserver is now known as Guest46018 | 06:56 | |
| -!- Guest46018 [~superobse@gateway/tor-sasl/yorrick] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] | 06:57 | |
| yorick | oh yeah we were just in need of a 'yorrick' | 06:57 |
| fenn | heh | 06:57 |
| fenn | yo dawg you just got yorickrolled | 06:58 |
| fenn | what the heck is going on in this picture? http://waag.org/sites/waag/files/public/styles/detailpage/public/Projects/picnic12_eye.jpg | 07:00 |
| yorick | fenn: weird lamps | 07:00 |
| archels | biannual M.C. Escher convention | 07:00 |
| fenn | it looks like they're being bombed by space invaders | 07:01 |
| yorick | also there is a stair with a table and a slope in the middle of the thing | 07:01 |
| kanzure | my talent agent is in the new yorker http://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2014/11/24/programmers-price | 07:18 |
| kanzure | comments https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8616952 | 07:19 |
| fenn | "lying on the beach gasping because they can’t get enough talented people in for these jobs." uh huh sure they are | 07:24 |
| kragen | saw an item recently by a recruiter about why agents for programmers don't work out | 07:26 |
| kragen | he'd tried to do it | 07:26 |
| fenn | of course a recruiter would say that | 07:26 |
| kragen | well, he'd apparently spent a couple of years failing at it | 07:27 |
| fenn | they're the enemy! competition! | 07:27 |
| kragen | at working for programmers rather than companies, I mean | 07:27 |
| kragen | he said basically the problem is that it's easy for programmers to find jobs, and it's hard for jobs to find programmers | 07:28 |
| kragen | which is the reverse of the situation in fields like actors and novelists where agents are a thing | 07:28 |
| fenn | an agent's job is to get you the best terms possible by doing all the social legwork bullshit | 07:30 |
| kragen | yes | 07:30 |
| fenn | it doesn't matter what the capital/labor ratio is | 07:30 |
| kragen | how much do you think you're losing by doing it yourself? | 07:31 |
| fenn | infinity | 07:31 |
| kragen | your income would be infinite if you only had an agent? | 07:31 |
| fenn | i mean, i can't get a job because i suck at doing the social legwork bullshit | 07:31 |
| kragen | oh | 07:31 |
| fenn | so $salary/0 | 07:31 |
| kragen | so, your entire income | 07:31 |
| kragen | in the range of US$40k to US$200k/year | 07:32 |
| kragen | in fields where agents are a thing, the *vast majority* of people in the field are in that situation | 07:32 |
| kragen | aspiring actors who can't get an auditiion | 07:32 |
| kragen | insurance salesmen with a drawer full of rejection slips for their novel | 07:33 |
| fenn | all these people trying to write novels should just be programmers instead | 07:34 |
| kragen | because there are so many of them — and more importantly, so many really good ones — agents are able to make a living in those fields | 07:34 |
| kanzure | fenn, i don't think a talent agent would make you able to tolerate having a ob | 07:34 |
| kanzure | *job | 07:34 |
| fenn | a good agent would listen to me and find a tolerable job | 07:35 |
| kanzure | your tolerable job doesn't exist as far as i know | 07:35 |
| fenn | wah | 07:35 |
| fenn | wah! | 07:35 |
| fenn | this is why i think "fuck the world" is a reasonable answer | 07:36 |
| kragen | it may also be why you don't actually have an agent | 07:36 |
| kanzure | he doesn't have an agent because i haven't introduced him to 10x yet | 07:36 |
| fenn | agents for software people didn't exist when i was looking for them | 07:36 |
| fenn | i was friends with some guy who eventually became an agent, but somehow it never came up in conversation | 07:37 |
| kanzure | when i think back to the types of gigs i've been exposed to (including the ones i've said no to) from 10x, i really just can't see fenn doing any of those | 07:37 |
| kanzure | he is technically skilled enough to do them, but i strongly doubt he would want to for only $30k/mo | 07:37 |
| kanzure | especially given the sorts of demands on attention or context switching that are often made | 07:38 |
| kragen | that's a pretty high billing rate | 07:38 |
| kanzure | well i'm very good at what i do | 07:38 |
| fenn | altay guvench apparently works at 10x | 07:38 |
| kanzure | altay owns 10x | 07:38 |
| fenn | right, see | 07:39 |
| kanzure | you know him too? | 07:39 |
| fenn | yeah he was at langton a lot | 07:39 |
| kanzure | oh, i'll hook you up then | 07:39 |
| kragen | and apparently what you do is valuable | 07:39 |
| Qfwfq | langton? | 07:40 |
| eudoxia | i'm doomed to always confuse linden labs with langton labs | 07:41 |
| fenn | langton is the fuzzy center of the neuroscience startup burningman bay area cocktail party nexus | 07:41 |
| Qfwfq | lol | 07:43 |
| Qfwfq | i mean, that's a mouthful, but it sounds like a party | 07:43 |
| fenn | kragen: i'm not sure if what i do is really valuable because there are so many ridiculously talented and hardworking people out there with pages and pages of stuff they've done | 07:45 |
| fenn | i realize this is a logic error but it still seems that way | 07:45 |
| fenn | when actually looking for opportunities i get a lot of interest but no returned calls | 07:46 |
| fenn | i mean, smarmy business people seem interested in me (the way a dog looks at a hamburger) but they don't actually follow through | 07:47 |
| kanzure | do you really want to be mucking around in css for 14 hours a day | 07:48 |
| kanzure | i'm afraid that would kill you | 07:48 |
| eudoxia | css is not so bad once you lower your expectations | 07:48 |
| fenn | i actually don't mind css | 07:48 |
| fenn | it's much easier now with all the inspector tools like firebug | 07:49 |
| fenn | but no, spending my life writing a web page doesn't seem filling | 07:51 |
| fenn | fulfilling* | 07:51 |
| kanzure | yes but would it kill you | 07:51 |
| kanzure | hmm this article mentions langton | 07:51 |
| kanzure | or, er, phage | 07:51 |
| fenn | same thing | 07:51 |
| -!- eudoxia [~eudoxia@r190-134-40-20.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] | 07:53 | |
| -!- delinquentme [~dingo@74.61.157.78] has joined ##hplusroadmap | 07:56 | |
| kanzure | does he know you as fenn? | 07:56 |
| fenn | i dont know | 07:59 |
| fenn | keep in mind this was three years ago | 08:00 |
| fenn | or four years ago | 08:00 |
| -!- Merovoth [~Merovoth@gateway/tor-sasl/merovoth] has joined ##hplusroadmap | 08:10 | |
| -!- Boscop_ [~me@e102.stw.stud.uni-saarland.de] has joined ##hplusroadmap | 08:11 | |
| -!- Boscop [~me@unaffiliated/boscop] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] | 08:15 | |
| -!- CheckDavid [uid14990@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-vzpcvxwvwpvtvmln] has quit [Quit: Connection closed for inactivity] | 08:27 | |
| fenn | this "vetted for interpersonal skills" sounds like anti-autism discrimination | 08:39 |
| fenn | "we don't want a coder who drools" | 08:39 |
| fenn | fuck you, you smell like cologne | 08:39 |
| fenn | "It turns out that negotiating is a lot easier when you're doing it for someone else." | 08:42 |
| fenn | i wonder why that is | 08:43 |
| Qfwfq | Intuitively: you'd worry less about appearing greedy in asking for things? Lots of people are bad at negotiation for that reason, including me. | 08:46 |
| kanzure | no it's not because of feeling greedy | 08:47 |
| kanzure | it's things like "easier to walk away from a bad deal" | 08:47 |
| archels | merit-based negotiation always turns out better | 08:48 |
| archels | it's easier to negotiate purely based on merits when you're not personally/emotionally involved | 08:48 |
| kanzure | hmm https://github.com/kanzure/pdfparanoia/pull/43 | 08:50 |
| fenn | yeah i think the stress response shutting down half your brain has something to do with it | 08:51 |
| Qfwfq | pdfminer3k hasn't been updated since my last patch | 08:55 |
| kanzure | what about the other one | 08:55 |
| Qfwfq | march update to pdfminer removed initialize() http://euske.github.io/pdfminer/index.html#changes | 08:55 |
| kanzure | so they are inconsistent? | 08:55 |
| Qfwfq | yeah | 08:55 |
| kanzure | well that sucks | 08:55 |
| kanzure | i don't know what to do about that | 08:56 |
| Qfwfq | i say stop supporting 3, rather than litter the source code with conditionals | 08:56 |
| kanzure | why are there two separate versions of pdfminer | 08:56 |
| kanzure | i think abandoning python3 support is bad | 08:56 |
| kanzure | python2 should be the one to suffer, if anything | 08:56 |
| Qfwfq | given it's being used as a library in paperbot.. yeah | 08:57 |
| Qfwfq | it's just that pdfminer for 3 has been out of maintenance for 2 years | 08:58 |
| Qfwfq | and calling the script with a different python runtime is always an option | 08:58 |
| kanzure | is there an alternative to pdfminer that works | 08:59 |
| Qfwfq | i don't know the python ecosystem | 08:59 |
| fenn | "Paul Cretu, and he and his partner were working on transcription software that records everything you say, leaving you with a searchable record of your thoughts and conversations" sign me up | 09:00 |
| kanzure | i am a little busy at the moment, it would be helpful if you or someone else could figure that out and just do the right thing | 09:00 |
| kanzure | and then either remove python2 support or python3 support from pdfparanoia | 09:00 |
| kanzure | and then remove pdfminer3k and possibly also pdfminer | 09:00 |
| Qfwfq | kanzure: https://pypi.python.org/pypi/pdfminer.six/20140915 | 09:01 |
| Qfwfq | that version works with 2 and 3 | 09:02 |
| kanzure | sure, throw that in | 09:02 |
| Qfwfq | k, i'll try and make time for it | 09:02 |
| kanzure | https://github.com/kanzure/pdfparanoia/issues/44 | 09:03 |
| Qfwfq | feel free to assign me, though i'm kinda busy for the next fortnight | 09:05 |
| -!- CheckDavid [uid14990@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-butqbhoardxhwipg] has joined ##hplusroadmap | 09:11 | |
| fenn | i would not have pegged Mark Mian as "a branding and marketing specialist" | 09:13 |
| fenn | i guess he does have sort of a guru vibe | 09:14 |
| * fenn highfives the ghost of wittgenstein | 09:16 | |
| fenn | korzybski too | 09:18 |
| fenn | http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Duck-Rabbit_illusion.jpg | 09:22 |
| delinquentme | nmz787, just sent you stuff | 09:28 |
| yoleaux | 05:18Z <nmz787> delinquentme: check logs ^... also you should start looking up nanofluidics... you can literally exclude chemistry from happening and stuff by just making a hallway too small, do separations by tuning surface charge of the channel and buffer make-up | 09:28 |
| fenn | memoserv people | 09:35 |
| -!- Boscop__ [~me@e102.stw.stud.uni-saarland.de] has joined ##hplusroadmap | 09:36 | |
| -!- Boscop_ [~me@e102.stw.stud.uni-saarland.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] | 09:39 | |
| -!- nmz787_i [~nmccorkx@134.134.139.74] has joined ##hplusroadmap | 09:44 | |
| nmz787_i | delinquentme: how do I open it? (at work now and have class this eve... prob won't have time to open it till around 9pm) | 09:45 |
| nmz787_i | ah, solidworks | 09:45 |
| nmz787_i | ok | 09:45 |
| nmz787_i | I think I can open that | 09:45 |
| nmz787_i | delinquentme: you might also try exporting a STEP or IGES file and send that over | 09:46 |
| nmz787_i | downloading this now http://www.solidworks.com/sw/support/edrawings/e2_download.htm | 09:48 |
| -!- nmz787_i [~nmccorkx@134.134.139.74] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] | 09:50 | |
| -!- nmz787_i [~nmccorkx@134.134.139.76] has joined ##hplusroadmap | 10:01 | |
| -!- delinquentme [~dingo@74.61.157.78] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] | 10:10 | |
| -!- crescend1 is now known as crescendo | 10:21 | |
| nmz787_i | paperbot: http://www.nature.com/srep/2014/140417/srep04717/pdf/srep04717.pdf | 10:24 |
| nmz787_i | paperbot: http://www.nature.com/srep/2014/140417/srep04717/extref/srep04717-s1.pdf | 10:27 |
| nmz787_i | fenn : FYI for coding (those are both open articles and thus the pdfs should be accessible to anyone) | 10:27 |
| -!- snuffeluffegus [~snuff@5.150.254.180] has quit [Quit: Leaving] | 10:27 | |
| fenn | paperbot: dude | 10:33 |
| fenn | works w/2.0 | 10:34 |
| kanzure | confirmed works? | 10:38 |
| fenn | /tmp/ffe79d50b58cde38644e6b31db6587d1.pdf | 10:47 |
| fenn | no doi extractor so no metadata | 10:48 |
| kanzure | i'm a little uneasy about replacing paperbot with paperbot2 because of the no zotero integration | 10:48 |
| kanzure | means losing all the journal parsers | 10:48 |
| fenn | actually there's no way to extract a doi from the pdf link without downloading the pdf and converting it to text etc | 10:50 |
| fenn | not sure how zotero would handle that any better | 10:51 |
| kanzure | most url structures for pdf links to publisher sites can be converted to non-pdf links automatically by inspecting the url and knowing the publisher and knowing the publisher's url scheme | 10:51 |
| fenn | is that what zotero does? | 10:53 |
| kanzure | nope | 10:54 |
| fenn | does this code exist anywhere? | 10:55 |
| fenn | publisher pdf-url <-> html-url mapping | 10:56 |
| kanzure | nope | 10:56 |
| fenn | ok :) | 10:56 |
| kanzure | my comment about uneasiness was regarding losing the journal parsers | 10:56 |
| fenn | do you think there are enough papers without DOIs to worry about not having a DOI? | 10:57 |
| kanzure | i don't see the relevance really? store doi when it's known, otherwise don't care too hard | 10:57 |
| kanzure | the stuff in model.py is probably a little wrong | 10:58 |
| fenn | because you can use the DOI to get metadata in a uniform format, thus you can get rid of zillions of journal-specific parsers | 10:58 |
| kanzure | a single paper doesn't have just one doi; there's a doi for the paper but also the issue/volume of the jorunal | 10:58 |
| kanzure | and then a doi for each supplementary document or something | 10:58 |
| kanzure | so it should be a list or dict of dois, i guess | 10:58 |
| kanzure | i don't want to force paperbot users to type in dois | 10:59 |
| fenn | that's not what i'm saying | 10:59 |
| fenn | paperbot looks at the link, finds a DOI somewhere in the content of the link, then looks up the doi on doi.org to get the metadata | 10:59 |
| kanzure | i don't want to force paperbot to only extract metadata when the publisher submitted a paper's metadata to doi's system | 10:59 |
| fenn | it's an easy 80% solution | 11:01 |
| kanzure | then do it | 11:02 |
| fenn | maybe i'm wrong about how DOI works; when i search for a DOI it just forwards me to the Nature page | 11:06 |
| fenn | but somehow wikipedia has bots that populate DOI citations with metadata | 11:06 |
| kanzure | doi is not omnipotent | 11:09 |
| fenn | ew they want $40k for metadata lookup | 11:10 |
| kanzure | haha | 11:10 |
| fenn | http://www.crossref.org/04intermediaries/34affiliate_fees.html#CMS_2012_Fees | 11:10 |
| nmz787_i | kanzure: why not have both v1 and v2 active here until we work out the transitional bugs? | 11:11 |
| kanzure | right now neither of them work | 11:12 |
| kanzure | so having two things that don't work wont be helpful | 11:12 |
| nmz787_i | fenn said the last links worked with v2 | 11:12 |
| fenn | it downloaded the pdf at least | 11:13 |
| nmz787_i | their working status changed since his message? | 11:13 |
| kanzure | do whatever you want, within the limits of 1) do the right thing, 2) don't be lazy, 3) pretend i'll kickban you if you make bad implementation choices | 11:13 |
| fenn | oh my god i am so underwhelmed by the crossref.org website | 11:17 |
| fenn | not to mention their business model is just as bad as the closed publishing model | 11:17 |
| fenn | they charge publishers to get their data into the system, then they charge libraries to get the metadata back out | 11:17 |
| fenn | s/data/metadata/ | 11:18 |
| fenn | why is it every time i think there's a reasonable metadata system it turns out to be some fucked up closed model | 11:18 |
| kanzure | because librarians are terrorists | 11:19 |
| fenn | librarians are pussies | 11:19 |
| -!- Viper168 [~Viper@unaffiliated/viper168] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] | 11:19 | |
| fenn | it's time for the terrorists to step up their game | 11:20 |
| kanzure | terrorize american by hijacking the library of congress? | 11:20 |
| fenn | yes.. | 11:20 |
| fenn | by making its metadata available to all... | 11:20 |
| fenn | MUWAHAHAHAHA | 11:21 |
| fenn | "You can search for papers in Pubget just like you would in PubMed, yet instead of the search results just linking to papers, with Pubget the search results *are* the papers." hrm | 11:21 |
| kanzure | "sometimes" | 11:22 |
| kanzure | that doesn't always work | 11:22 |
| fenn | it seems to convert DOI to metadata at least | 11:24 |
| fenn | i need more DOI test cases | 11:25 |
| kanzure | grep hplusroadmap logs for jstor.org, their urls are doi numbers | 11:26 |
| fenn | but that's just stuff in jstor | 11:26 |
| fenn | i don't know what range of journals pubget covers | 11:26 |
| fenn | is it just pubmed? | 11:26 |
| Zinglon | http://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/257898.php | 11:27 |
| Zinglon | hmm | 11:27 |
| -!- Viper168 [~Viper@unaffiliated/viper168] has joined ##hplusroadmap | 11:27 | |
| -!- Vutral [ss@mirbsd/special/Vutral] has joined ##hplusroadmap | 11:27 | |
| fenn | "Pubget covers over 20 million research papers" but that's only 20% of the 100 million DOIs | 11:27 |
| fenn | is wireless blood sensors a new thing? | 11:28 |
| fenn | so much of this medical device startup technology just gets buried under the noise of history | 11:29 |
| fenn | .title | 11:30 |
| yoleaux | "Tiny Lab" Implanted Under Skin Transmits Blood Marker Levels - Medical News Today | 11:30 |
| kanzure | subdermal sensor plus inductive powering is sorta novel, i mean it's not groundbreaking but not trivial to setup either | 11:30 |
| fenn | it seems trivial from my perspective | 11:31 |
| kanzure | depends on the sensor and what sort of math they are doing before transmission ove what protocol | 11:31 |
| kanzure | *over | 11:31 |
| fenn | i'm curious about the "nano-sized sensors" though | 11:31 |
| fenn | integrated plasmonics was working on an array of such sensors | 11:32 |
| fenn | if it's just an antibody bound to a semiconductor, i'd expect it to get covered with all sorts of junk by the immune system | 11:33 |
| -!- chris_99 [~chris_99@unaffiliated/chris-99/x-3062929] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] | 11:34 | |
| -!- chris_99 [~chris_99@unaffiliated/chris-99/x-3062929] has joined ##hplusroadmap | 11:34 | |
| fenn | you might be able to get around that by encapsulating the whole thing in dialysis tubing or some kind of barrier that will let macromolecules through but not cells | 11:34 |
| -!- justanotheruser [~Justan@unaffiliated/justanotheruser] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] | 11:36 | |
| -!- Vutral [ss@mirbsd/special/Vutral] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] | 11:44 | |
| nmz787_i | there was a wireless sensor i read about a few days ago that said it was small enough to get between cells | 11:44 |
| nmz787_i | it seemed like basically a small IC chip die that had sensors and wireless onboard | 11:45 |
| fenn | randall koene's thing? neualinkco? | 11:48 |
| jrayhawk | fenn, sheena: due to smog, the JDM is warped by an extremely onerous inspection schedule that makes it generally untenable to own a car more than ten years, so engine longevity is not a big priority. | 11:48 |
| fenn | why do hondas run for hundreds of thousands of miles then | 11:49 |
| jrayhawk | Because the USDM cares deeply. The JDM is a testbed. | 11:50 |
| nmz787_i | http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=JDM | 11:51 |
| jrayhawk | It's a very nice product development arrangement. You get to beta test everything in a smaller market that doesn't care, then you get to crush the larger market with a reputation for quality. | 11:55 |
| -!- chris_99 [~chris_99@unaffiliated/chris-99/x-3062929] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] | 11:56 | |
| -!- Vutral [ss@mirbsd/special/Vutral] has joined ##hplusroadmap | 11:57 | |
| -!- justanotheruser [~Justan@unaffiliated/justanotheruser] has joined ##hplusroadmap | 11:59 | |
| fenn | you'd think american car companies would have figured this out and started selling JDM models too | 12:18 |
| jrayhawk | american car companies don't really understand the JDM market very well and have a lot of failed products over there | 12:20 |
| jrayhawk | they did at one point do a marketing exchange; an USDM american-badged corolla for a JDM japanese-badged cavelier | 12:21 |
| Zinglon | I have to be going now, bye guys! | 12:25 |
| nmz787_i | I can't see a japanese person driving an old cavalier (80s version) | 12:25 |
| nmz787_i | the carburetors on them were ridiculous hybrid beasts (horrible) | 12:26 |
| nmz787_i | some smashup of carbs and EFI | 12:26 |
| Zinglon | *get going | 12:27 |
| fenn | bye | 12:27 |
| -!- Zinglon [~Zinglon@D549A77D.cm-10-1a.dynamic.ziggo.nl] has quit [Quit: I love my HydraIRC -> http://www.hydrairc.com <-] | 12:27 | |
| fenn | what's the word for something like a unit test, but for scraping websites? | 12:29 |
| fenn | to test if the scraper still works for a single website | 12:30 |
| kanzure | against the real website? | 12:30 |
| fenn | yeah | 12:30 |
| kanzure | "integration test" | 12:30 |
| fenn | hrmph | 12:30 |
| kanzure | going out to the live web is usually considered bad though | 12:34 |
| kanzure | so usually you download it once, commit the html file, and just parse that one forever into the future | 12:34 |
| kanzure | and then when they change, you fix your test | 12:34 |
| -!- ebowden [~ebowden@147.69.147.27] has joined ##hplusroadmap | 12:35 | |
| Qfwfq | That's what I've always done, but now I'm curious how people handle notification of changed structure. | 12:35 |
| nmz787_i | you should probably note the date at which the HTML was retrieved, and display that somewhere when the tests are run | 12:36 |
| kanzure | notifications are usually people enraged at you over irc | 12:36 |
| Qfwfq | The content might change without you needing to revise the selector, so you want a larger diff on the DOM structure | 12:36 |
| kanzure | "fuck you kanzure" etc | 12:36 |
| Qfwfq | lol | 12:36 |
| Qfwfq | "What if nobody uses your stuff?" "Why are you maintaining it, then?" | 12:37 |
| Qfwfq | "Past some popularity threshold, integration tests may be replaced by an IRC handle." | 12:39 |
| -!- maaku [~quassel@50-0-37-37.dsl.static.fusionbroadband.com] has joined ##hplusroadmap | 12:39 | |
| -!- maaku is now known as Guest49700 | 12:40 | |
| -!- Guest49700 is now known as maaku | 12:42 | |
| -!- ebowden [~ebowden@147.69.147.27] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] | 12:46 | |
| -!- qu-bit [~shroedngr@unaffiliated/barriers] has joined ##hplusroadmap | 12:56 | |
| -!- ThomasEgi [~thomas@panda3d/ThomasEgi] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] | 13:09 | |
| -!- nmz787_i [~nmccorkx@134.134.139.76] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] | 13:14 | |
| -!- nmz787_i [~nmccorkx@192.55.54.40] has joined ##hplusroadmap | 13:25 | |
| fenn | should i install pdfminer from ubuntu (apt-get install python-pdfminer) or from pip-python (pip install <something>)? | 13:27 |
| fenn | apt-get version seems to work | 13:29 |
| -!- Vutral [ss@mirbsd/special/Vutral] has quit [Excess Flood] | 13:33 | |
| -!- TheShadowFog [~TheShadow@2601:8:3e80:c:7d71:2e6c:7049:6035] has joined ##hplusroadmap | 13:35 | |
| -!- Vutral [ss@mirbsd/special/Vutral] has joined ##hplusroadmap | 13:38 | |
| fenn | woah this is a nutty piece of software | 13:45 |
| -!- Vutral [ss@mirbsd/special/Vutral] has quit [Excess Flood] | 13:47 | |
| Viper168 | squirrels been in it? | 13:51 |
| TheShadowFog | fenn, what software? | 13:54 |
| fenn | pdfminer | 13:55 |
| TheShadowFog | ooh | 13:55 |
| TheShadowFog | yeah i've used that before | 13:55 |
| fenn | apparently you have to do all these steps just to get text out http://www.garysieling.com/blog/scraping-pdf-text-with-python | 13:55 |
| TheShadowFog | oh wait that was a different program | 13:55 |
| TheShadowFog | yeah sorry that looks annoying damn son | 13:56 |
| kanzure | fenn: pdfminer from pypi because that's the one other pdfparanoia users are installing by default | 14:05 |
| -!- delinquentme [~dingo@74.61.157.78] has joined ##hplusroadmap | 14:07 | |
| -!- Qfwfq [~WashIrvin@unaffiliated/washirving] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] | 14:33 | |
| -!- snuffeluffegus [~snuff@5.150.254.180] has joined ##hplusroadmap | 14:34 | |
| -!- Vutral [jxy71QysoJ@mirbsd/special/Vutral] has joined ##hplusroadmap | 14:35 | |
| -!- Qfwfq [~WashIrvin@cm58.kappa38.maxonline.com.sg] has joined ##hplusroadmap | 14:38 | |
| -!- Qfwfq [~WashIrvin@cm58.kappa38.maxonline.com.sg] has quit [Changing host] | 14:38 | |
| -!- Qfwfq [~WashIrvin@unaffiliated/washirving] has joined ##hplusroadmap | 14:38 | |
| kanzure | ouch https://github.com/bitcoin-abe/bitcoin-abe/blob/master/Abe/DataStore.py#L2530 | 14:41 |
| kanzure | err i mean, https://github.com/bitcoin-abe/bitcoin-abe/blob/f3a018120795e2c3524b528116fc7b0f18ebbe79/Abe/DataStore.py#L2530 | 14:41 |
| fenn | pdftotext is about 30 times faster and they are nearly identical except for whitespace; however pdfminer managed to translate a figure caption and pdftotext did not | 14:42 |
| kanzure | i would prefer a pure-python implementation (even if it is slower) so that i don't have to use non-python dependencies in that library/tool | 14:43 |
| fenn | i hope there is a better way to do this than just converting the whole document ; i don't really care about formatting since i am just looking for the DOI | 14:44 |
| fenn | anyway it's good to know that pdfminer works as expected (once you figure out the correct sequence of hoops to jump through) | 14:45 |
| kanzure | unfortunately you can't really assume every pdf is using "deflate" for each text section.. | 14:45 |
| fenn | you mean i can't just zcat foo.pdf | grep ??? :P | 14:48 |
| kanzure | "it's a 5% solution, take it" | 14:48 |
| kanzure | these partial solutions multiply together and then nothing works | 14:48 |
| -!- drewbot [~cinch@ec2-54-91-208-9.compute-1.amazonaws.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] | 14:50 | |
| -!- drewbot [~cinch@ec2-54-90-152-247.compute-1.amazonaws.com] has joined ##hplusroadmap | 14:51 | |
| fenn | "nside a PDF document, text is in no particular order (unless it is importing for printing), most of the time the original text structure is lost (letters may not be grouped as words and words may not be grouped in sentences, and the order they are placed in the paper often is random)." | 14:52 |
| fenn | hmm looking at pypdf it says "extracting document information (title, author, ...)" | 14:54 |
| fenn | nevermind it's a lie | 15:00 |
| -!- qu-bit [~shroedngr@unaffiliated/barriers] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] | 15:01 | |
| Qfwfq | pdftotext is decent if you want ascii with preserved layout | 15:01 |
| Qfwfq | nevermind, you mention it in scrollback | 15:02 |
| nmz787_i | fenn: here is some code I wrote using pdfminer and pypdfocr http://paste.pound-python.org/show/7rOIMaAUtg8uB0UoOIW5/ | 15:18 |
| nmz787_i | which ended up looking something like this later http://umap.fluv.io/en/map/untitled-map_2096#11/45.4960/-122.7818 | 15:19 |
| fenn | i can't see that but i can imagine | 15:20 |
| fenn | is that real OCR or fake OCR | 15:20 |
| fenn | hm it uses tesseract | 15:21 |
| nmz787_i | in that case the PDFs were just images of scanned papers | 15:23 |
| -!- Viper168 [~Viper@unaffiliated/viper168] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] | 15:24 | |
| -!- Qfwfq [~WashIrvin@unaffiliated/washirving] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] | 15:38 | |
| kragen | kanzure: I just tweeted https://twitter.com/kragen/status/534491597371879424 quoting you anonymously | 15:42 |
| kragen | if you'd prefer that I delete the tweet or credit you, let me know | 15:42 |
| -!- Qfwfq [~WashIrvin@unaffiliated/washirving] has joined ##hplusroadmap | 15:42 | |
| -!- Vutral [jxy71QysoJ@mirbsd/special/Vutral] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] | 15:46 | |
| kanzure | shrug, if anyone asks it's okay to say, i suppose, but otherwise don't bother | 15:48 |
| kanzure | i think more accurately i would be worried about that sort of work draining the life force out of fenn | 15:49 |
| kanzure | there's only so many technical compromises you can ask him to make before he dies or something | 15:51 |
| kragen | heh | 15:51 |
| kragen | I wonder if that's true of djb too | 15:52 |
| kanzure | djwho? | 15:52 |
| -!- rayston [~rayston@ip68-106-242-42.ph.ph.cox.net] has joined ##hplusroadmap | 15:54 | |
| maaku | i'll work for $30k/mo ;) | 15:56 |
| maaku | kanzure: cryptographer | 15:56 |
| maaku | http://cr.yp.to/djb.html | 15:56 |
| -!- Vutral [ss@mirbsd/special/Vutral] has joined ##hplusroadmap | 16:01 | |
| fenn | i could probably survive a month of 9 to 5 | 16:02 |
| kanzure | maaku: you're booked up at blockstream | 16:06 |
| kragen | kanzure: qmail convinced me that we don't know how to program yet | 16:06 |
| kanzure | oh, bernstein | 16:06 |
| maaku | true, but $30k/mo would be awfully temping ;) | 16:07 |
| kanzure | when did your cliff/vesting schedule start? | 16:07 |
| maaku | i know that's standard around wall st, but it's hard to believe anyone gets paid that much for writing code | 16:07 |
| maaku | a few months into an 18 mo cliff | 16:07 |
| kanzure | that's not hard at all, it's barely more than your lawyer geeze | 16:07 |
| kanzure | or your plumber for that matter | 16:08 |
| fenn | yeah plumbers get outrageous cash | 16:08 |
| kanzure | s/hard/hard to believe | 16:08 |
| heath | 360k/yr? | 16:08 |
| heath | for a plumber... | 16:08 |
| heath | i don't believe it | 16:08 |
| maaku | if you assume 40hr work week.. i don't think my plumber gets 8 billable hours a day | 16:08 |
| kanzure | have you guys been living under a rock | 16:08 |
| fenn | for new construction, not the guy with the butt crack | 16:08 |
| kanzure | yeah, maybe not 40 hours/week, i don't know how plumbers schedule themselves | 16:08 |
| kragen | they don't bill for travel time | 16:09 |
| kanzure | new construction types might? | 16:09 |
| kragen | and there are plumbers who do indeed work 8hour days onsite | 16:09 |
| kanzure | well, look, if you're working on applications and source code that make $XX million/year, and you're increasing revenue by entire basis points, there's a strong argument to be made for "pay me" | 16:10 |
| kragen | but we're talking about my friend Dann who fixes Boston's sewage plant when it breaks, not the guy who to your house with a Roto-Rooter | 16:10 |
| kragen | who drives to your house | 16:10 |
| kragen | I'm pretty sure he doesn't bill US$30k/month ever though | 16:11 |
| maaku | kanzure: right, but there's also a hundred other people who will happily step in and underbid you | 16:12 |
| kanzure | maaku: there's a scarcity of good developers, so what do you think happens when you're a bitcoin developer too? | 16:13 |
| maaku | well specializing certainly does help | 16:13 |
| kanzure | that's like double unicorn | 16:13 |
| kanzure | there's probably <100 people total on the market right now as a bitcoin developer available to be hired for anything in the entire space | 16:13 |
| kanzure | and also, we probably know all of them | 16:13 |
| maaku | https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8620201 | 16:15 |
| -!- Vutral [ss@mirbsd/special/Vutral] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] | 16:16 | |
| kanzure | i haven't looked at their reputation stuff. is it sane? | 16:16 |
| maaku | Maybe. | 16:16 |
| kanzure | hah "Why do you include floating point operations in the consensus code?" | 16:16 |
| maaku | There's no adversarial analysis as far as I can see. | 16:16 |
| kanzure | "wtf is code review?" | 16:16 |
| maaku | yeah well that *could* be fixed | 16:17 |
| maaku | i'm more concerned that the basic model might not be safe | 16:17 |
| maaku | but if it is, it's pretty amazing what can be done | 16:17 |
| maaku | not as a prediction market, but as a way of sourcing external data for smart contracts | 16:17 |
| kanzure | are there any working implementations of whuffie? fenn was asking | 16:19 |
| maaku | E.g. the canonical example of a usdcoin built by using the prediction market to issue shares against the future btc/usd price. | 16:19 |
| maaku | not familiar with it | 16:19 |
| kanzure | .wik whuffie | 16:20 |
| yoleaux | "Whuffie[pronunciation?] is the ephemeral, reputation-based currency of Cory Doctorow's science fiction novel Down and Out in the Magic Kingdom and his short story Truncat." — http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whuffie | 16:20 |
| kanzure | "The Whuffie Bank launched as a non-profit company at the TechCrunch50 conference on September 15, 2009. The organization aims to create a reputation currency for social networks.[4] However, their URL and Twitter feed became inactive on April 2012. As of December 2013 the website is inaccessible and relays the message "No more Whuffies :'(."[5]" | 16:20 |
| fenn | ugh not "The Whuffie Bank" no no no | 16:23 |
| maaku | repuation a la ripple? | 16:24 |
| fenn | yeah that's closer | 16:24 |
| fenn | reputation is in the eye of the beholder | 16:25 |
| kanzure | the first ripple or the current ripple? | 16:25 |
| maaku | first ripple. ryan fugger's ripple | 16:25 |
| fenn | who your friends are determines the reputation of the target being judged | 16:25 |
| maaku | the only ripple :P | 16:25 |
| fenn | anyway i'm not as interested in whuffie the social currency as just a simple way to determine if something is bullshit or not | 16:26 |
| fenn | s/as/as much as/ | 16:26 |
| kanzure | if reputation can be purchased then wouldn't that just mean people would buy your not-bullshit indicators? | 16:27 |
| fenn | reputation can't be purchased | 16:27 |
| fenn | i guess you could game the system by hiring lots of "real" people embedded in real social networks | 16:27 |
| kanzure | how is that possible? | 16:27 |
| kanzure | i mean how is it possible that it can't be purchased? | 16:27 |
| fenn | well, if you care about having an accurate measure, you un-friend people who "like" coca-cola or whatever | 16:28 |
| maaku | well that's what prediction markets are, right? you buy/sell bs/not-bs shares to get an idea of whether something is trustworthy | 16:28 |
| fenn | companies started offering "free stuff" if you liked them on facebook | 16:28 |
| fenn | maaku: that's a little more subtle | 16:29 |
| fenn | so, bitcoinwiki.org is known to be a scam, but due to limited information flow it tricks people into thinking it's a real site | 16:30 |
| fenn | there's nothing stopping people from saying "hey, that's a scam, don't use it" | 16:31 |
| fenn | but what if the owner thinks it's not a scam, and his friends put their support into it | 16:31 |
| fenn | who do you believe? | 16:31 |
| kanzure | nobody, everyone is equally awful and i hate all of them | 16:31 |
| kanzure | or, rather, everyone has some minimum level of awfulness going on there | 16:31 |
| fenn | yes, there's a non-zero noise in the measurement | 16:32 |
| -!- ThomasEgi [~thomas@panda3d/ThomasEgi] has joined ##hplusroadmap | 16:32 | |
| fenn | as always you have to set a noise floor | 16:32 |
| maaku | so a prediction market helps here because it lets people on the inside anonymously profit from knowing it is a scam, but in doing so revealing that fact to the world | 16:33 |
| fenn | doesn't that just incentivize more scams? | 16:33 |
| fenn | also how does this work in practice, who would buy/sell predictions? | 16:34 |
| kanzure | and if that method works, then why does gmaxwell spend a non-trivial amount of his time manually debating marketing scams | 16:35 |
| fenn | also i dont get why it has anything to do with buying and selling | 16:35 |
| maaku | kanzure: I'm not convinced the method works (if we're talking about truthcoin specifically. prediction markets do work in practice but are highly regulated) | 16:36 |
| kanzure | nah not truthcoin | 16:36 |
| fenn | can you name an example of a real prediction market? | 16:36 |
| fenn | is it the same as betting on an outcome? (for the things i'm talking about, there usually will be no final day of judgement) | 16:37 |
| maaku | InTrade (now defunct for regulatory reasons) | 16:38 |
| maaku | fenn: yes | 16:38 |
| kanzure | pagerank is like reputation i guess, and even pagerank links can be bought and sold | 16:38 |
| kanzure | so you would have to argue pretty hard that there exists a way to do reputation that is impervious to purchase | 16:38 |
| kanzure | s/purchase/trade | 16:39 |
| fenn | yes pagerank is like reputation | 16:39 |
| maaku | InTrade famously did better than any poll in predicting the 2008 presidential election outcome | 16:39 |
| fenn | afaik there is no way to "downvote" a link | 16:39 |
| fenn | also pagerank has issues with determining who is a real person | 16:40 |
| kanzure | so will your reputation system | 16:40 |
| fenn | yes but it will have ways to deal with sybil attacks | 16:40 |
| fenn | (that's the whole point after all) | 16:40 |
| kanzure | ? | 16:41 |
| fenn | web pages don't represent people, so pagerank can't judge a page by whether it's a person or not | 16:41 |
| fenn | glug | 16:42 |
| kanzure | that's not what i asked | 16:42 |
| kanzure | what is your magic sybil resistance method | 16:42 |
| fenn | whether nodes are in your social network | 16:42 |
| fenn | if all your friends are morons you will have a lot of noise in your measurement | 16:43 |
| kanzure | social networks have never been immune to sybil attacks | 16:44 |
| fenn | because people are morons | 16:44 |
| fenn | "oh a hot girl friended me wow" | 16:44 |
| -!- yashgaroth [~ffffff@2606:6000:cb85:6a00:50a4:f569:684f:fe1b] has joined ##hplusroadmap | 16:45 | |
| kanzure | yeah that's not resistance | 16:46 |
| kanzure | or immunity | 16:46 |
| fenn | well so far key-signing parties have failed to take off | 16:47 |
| kanzure | what about them? | 16:48 |
| fenn | it's sort of like a turing test | 16:48 |
| fenn | there's a cost to participate, so one person can't spam a million key signing parties at once | 16:48 |
| fenn | but it turns out the cost is too high for anyone in practice | 16:49 |
| kragen | fenn: except among Debian Developers | 16:49 |
| fenn | (the cost is the time and effort it takes to show up) | 16:49 |
| kanzure | you can't say "wah this other thing isn't working, so here's a broken design" | 16:49 |
| fenn | look just because the social aspect doesn't work for morons doesn't mean the system shouldn't exist at all | 16:50 |
| kanzure | sybil attacks don't attack morons, they attack everyone | 16:50 |
| fenn | if you see spamspamspameggsandspam.com was recommended by bob's friend spambot9999 you might want to unfriend bob | 16:52 |
| fenn | or un-trust or whatever the verb is | 16:52 |
| fenn | facebook has this set up so bob feels shamed; i dunno if that is correct | 16:53 |
| -!- Qfwfq [~WashIrvin@unaffiliated/washirving] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] | 16:53 | |
| fenn | "unfriend" operation is considered hurtful | 16:53 |
| kanzure | yeah, that's not immunity | 16:54 |
| kragen | FB doesn't tell you when someone unfriends you | 16:54 |
| fenn | but like, /part from a noisy channel isn't judging the people in the channel | 16:54 |
| kanzure | and also, you can totally buy reputation in that system | 16:54 |
| fenn | spambot9999 paid bob how much? | 16:55 |
| kanzure | does it matter? | 16:55 |
| fenn | yes | 16:55 |
| kanzure | why? | 16:55 |
| fenn | because it limits the number of nodes a spammer can compromise | 16:55 |
| fenn | if bob can be bought for a free soda then he's easily compromised | 16:56 |
| fenn | (fwiw the LIBOR exchange rate could be bribed with day-old sushi) | 16:56 |
| kanzure | this just sounds so awful | 16:56 |
| kragen | pagerank itself is relatively hard to compromise | 16:56 |
| kanzure | haha | 16:56 |
| kragen | what killed it was that people stopped building the graph it analyzed | 16:57 |
| fenn | on the other hand, if bob is detected as a sell-out he loses credibility with all his friends, not just with the detector | 16:57 |
| kragen | because it's easier to search for things on google than to search for them in your blog archive | 16:57 |
| kanzure | that requires his friends to do active maintenance | 16:57 |
| kanzure | your system also sucks because it assumes that sybil attacks aren't graphs | 16:57 |
| fenn | people still link to stuff | 16:57 |
| kragen | not as much as they used to | 16:57 |
| kragen | and a lot of the linking is nofollow | 16:58 |
| kanzure | and if they do link to things it's hidden away in proprietary systems | 16:58 |
| kragen | pagerank does have the huge advantage that it converges, assuming ergodicity | 16:58 |
| kanzure | yes lots of nofollow these days | 16:58 |
| kragen | ergodicity is a very weak assumption | 16:58 |
| fenn | .wik ergodicity | 16:58 |
| yoleaux | "In mathematics, the term ergodic is used to describe a dynamical system which, broadly speaking, has the same behavior averaged over time as averaged over the space of all the system's states (phase space). In physics the term is used to imply that a system satisfies the ergodic hypothesis of thermodynamics." — http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ergodicity | 16:58 |
| fenn | ow my brain | 16:58 |
| kragen | but Google is now using systems with negative edge weights | 16:59 |
| -!- Qfwfq [~WashIrvin@unaffiliated/washirving] has joined ##hplusroadmap | 16:59 | |
| kragen | which means that you can get "negative PageRank" and then link to sites that you want to demote | 16:59 |
| fenn | how do you do that | 16:59 |
| kragen | by e.g. spamming Gmail users | 16:59 |
| fenn | but doesn't that end up promoting the thing you want to demote? | 16:59 |
| kanzure | gmail filters spam | 17:00 |
| kragen | right, and penalizes the spammy domains | 17:00 |
| kragen | apparently also in the google search index | 17:00 |
| kragen | it doesn't promote the thing you link to; it penalizes it for blackhat SEO | 17:00 |
| fenn | but what i gmail detects your trick and realizes it's an attempt to demote a valid page, ad infinitum | 17:00 |
| fenn | flickering intentionality | 17:00 |
| kragen | systems like that tend to have multiple possible attractors | 17:01 |
| kragen | e.g. maybe you trust Barack Obama and distrust Rush Limbaugh, or maybe vice versa; either state is stable | 17:01 |
| kragen | because of the negative edge weights | 17:01 |
| kragen | PageRank avoids that problem | 17:02 |
| kragen | as does the Advogato reputation system | 17:02 |
| fenn | i'm kinda lost now | 17:02 |
| kragen | (unless, in the case of PageRank, your graph is non-ergodic. But that's vanishingly unlikely) | 17:03 |
| kragen | sorry | 17:03 |
| fenn | say i send 1000 emails saying "visit kragen's blog!" | 17:03 |
| fenn | 1000 people visit your blog | 17:03 |
| fenn | now i send 10,000 emails, but gmail detects it as spam and ... what? | 17:03 |
| fenn | kragen's blog gets blacklisted from google? | 17:04 |
| kanzure | pagerank does not mean blacklists | 17:04 |
| kragen | right. or at least gets a spam penalty applied to its pagerank | 17:04 |
| kragen | you can do even better though | 17:04 |
| kragen | you can send 10,000 emails saying "visit fenn's blog!" | 17:04 |
| fenn | but that would lower my blog's popularity | 17:05 |
| kragen | and then once you've verified that your blog has been classified as spam, you can use it to demote my blog whenever you like | 17:05 |
| kragen | you can also send those emails from the domain of your blog, which makes it a more effective tactic | 17:05 |
| kanzure | nobody cares about a spam blog's popularity, fenn | 17:06 |
| kanzure | that's the whole point | 17:06 |
| kanzure | they are trivial to create | 17:06 |
| fenn | sure | 17:06 |
| fenn | you are both yellow and start with k, i might be getting you both mixed up | 17:06 |
| fenn | ok so penalizing is free | 17:07 |
| fenn | why hasn't the internet imploded? | 17:07 |
| kanzure | hasn't it? | 17:07 |
| fenn | i'm not sure, i don't really use google anymore because of the stupid features like "did you mean... " | 17:08 |
| -!- nmz787_i [~nmccorkx@192.55.54.40] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] | 17:09 | |
| fenn | it seems the internet not working is more of a technological problem than a game theoretical one | 17:09 |
| fenn | link rot, site closure, forking | 17:10 |
| fenn | slashdot style content moderation systems have managed to hold back the sheer tide of stupidity, for a while at least | 17:11 |
| kragen | I think that's largely a game-theoretical problem | 17:12 |
| kragen | you could reduce the cost of preventing link rot | 17:12 |
| fenn | kanzure do you think people purchase karma on reddit/slashdot/hn/lesswrong? | 17:13 |
| kanzure | YES | 17:13 |
| kanzure | digg even put a price on it | 17:13 |
| kragen | but unless you reduce it to zero you still need people who take the time to actually do it | 17:13 |
| kragen | which is largely a game-theoretical problem | 17:14 |
| fenn | it only takes one person to fix the link, and it doesn't actually have to be the webmaster | 17:14 |
| kragen | that's right | 17:14 |
| fenn | IF we had a web of trust, it would be simple enough to follow the fixed link provided by a trusted person | 17:15 |
| kragen | but you have to do that without turning the entire internet into linkspam or YouTube comments | 17:15 |
| kragen | yeah | 17:15 |
| kragen | Wikipedia does it without a web of trust, but only by deleting unpopular pages | 17:16 |
| fenn | i don't really get wikipedia's deletion policy | 17:16 |
| kragen | well, that's basically it | 17:16 |
| kragen | since WP doesn't have a web of trust, only popular pgaes get maintained | 17:16 |
| fenn | what prevents hordes of b-tards from colonizing wikipedia then? | 17:17 |
| kanzure | http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Goodhart's_law | 17:17 |
| kragen | uncyclopedia and encyclopedia dramatica | 17:17 |
| kanzure | ""When a measure becomes a target, it ceases to be a good measure."" | 17:17 |
| kragen | I mean basically there aren't that many b-tards | 17:17 |
| kanzure | i would guestimate at least 100k | 17:18 |
| kragen | yeah, but that's not enough to overwhelm Wikipedia's vandal patrol | 17:18 |
| kanzure | really? hm | 17:18 |
| kragen | especially when it's more fun to write shit on https://encyclopediadramatica.se/Girlvinyl instead | 17:18 |
| fenn | kanzure: that's not universal; it only applies to systems that can be gamed | 17:19 |
| fenn | i'm thinking about people trying to lose weight or gain height or something | 17:19 |
| kanzure | your reputation network can be gamed | 17:19 |
| kragen | gaining height does get gamed | 17:20 |
| fenn | yeah people chop their legs apart and stuff, it's gross | 17:20 |
| kragen | think about dwarfs taking HGH and Chinese femur lengthening surgery | 17:20 |
| fenn | i don't have any problem with HGH | 17:20 |
| kanzure | why is gaining height a gaming of height gaining | 17:20 |
| kanzure | fenn is it possible that the universe disagrees with your beliefs about reputation | 17:20 |
| fenn | because height is attractive for evolutionary reasons having to do with the ability to eat a lot of food | 17:21 |
| fenn | ... or something | 17:21 |
| kragen | it's a gaming of people's "tall = high status" wiring | 17:21 |
| -!- rak[1] is now known as dog | 17:21 | |
| kragen | similar to dieting, liposuction, makeup, plastic surgery, clothing... | 17:21 |
| fenn | yeah we should get rid of all that stuff :P | 17:21 |
| kragen | piercing, tattooing, bodybuilding... | 17:21 |
| kragen | really? why? | 17:22 |
| -!- dog is now known as Guest75225 | 17:22 | |
| fenn | genetic modification is simpler and more effective | 17:22 |
| -!- Guest75225 is now known as raise-the-hunt | 17:22 | |
| kragen | really? | 17:22 |
| fenn | if people want to be tall, is chopping their legs apart the answer? | 17:23 |
| -!- raise-the-hunt is now known as rak[1] | 17:23 | |
| -!- rak[1] is now known as rk[1] | 17:23 | |
| fenn | some time in the far future, spam will cease to exist because the bots have gotten so good they actually contribute in a useful way | 17:24 |
| kragen | it's probably less dangerous than gene therapy and stem cell therapy | 17:24 |
| fenn | so here's my issue with goodhart's law: if you game the "height" measure, you really are taller | 17:25 |
| fenn | if you do steroids, you really are stronger | 17:26 |
| kanzure | and if you spam more, you really are spamming. who cares? | 17:26 |
| fenn | at some point it ceases to be gaming | 17:26 |
| streety | what's the underlying desire behind wanting to be taller? | 17:26 |
| kanzure | er, does that matter? | 17:26 |
| kragen | streety: discrimination against short people | 17:26 |
| kragen | yeah. it's only a problem if you're using height as a proxy for something else, like maturity or social class | 17:26 |
| fenn | but there is no such thing as social class | 17:27 |
| kragen | I mean if strength is really what people value in a fuckbuddy (if that's what you're trying to game) | 17:27 |
| kanzure | fenn: so now it sounds like your reputation system is really just some communication system to see what your friends said | 17:27 |
| kanzure | and nothing about reputation at all | 17:27 |
| fenn | yes that's all it ever was | 17:27 |
| fenn | what is "reputation" | 17:27 |
| kragen | a girlfriend of mine told me that before she met me she thought that people had to be physically fit to be good in bed | 17:27 |
| kanzure | you're the one building a reputation system, argh | 17:28 |
| -!- strangewarp_ [~strangewa@c-76-25-206-3.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has joined ##hplusroadmap | 17:28 | |
| fenn | reputation is a mushy hodgepodge combination of signals, trying to measure some hidden variable like "trustworthiness" that maybe doesn't even exist | 17:29 |
| kanzure | that sounds dumb | 17:29 |
| fenn | me i'd prefer to measure the signals directly, but people find that too difficult | 17:29 |
| -!- helleshin [~talinck@66-161-138-110.ubr1.dyn.lebanon-oh.fuse.net] has joined ##hplusroadmap | 17:29 | |
| fenn | 1 out of 5500 people said this website was a scam | 17:30 |
| fenn | hurr | 17:30 |
| fenn | .wik fitness | 17:30 |
| yoleaux | "Disambiguation: Fitness" — http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fitness | 17:30 |
| -!- strangewarp [~strangewa@c-76-25-206-3.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] | 17:31 | |
| fenn | evolutionary biologists get into fits over the meaning of "fitness" | 17:31 |
| -!- hehelleshin [~talinck@66-161-138-110.ubr1.dyn.lebanon-oh.fuse.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] | 17:31 | |
| kragen | really? | 17:31 |
| fenn | "fitness contributes to survival and reproduction" | 17:32 |
| kragen | I thought they were the only ones who didn't | 17:32 |
| fenn | ok but what about random plagues that kill everyone except the mutant previously considered "unfit" | 17:32 |
| kanzure | biologists get angry when you say fitness, they like to correct you with "survival of the fit, not the fittest" | 17:33 |
| kanzure | *fittest | 17:33 |
| fenn | suddenly fitness means something different than it did before the plague | 17:33 |
| kanzure | no | 17:33 |
| kanzure | the concept of fitness recognizes that | 17:34 |
| kanzure | nobody goes around applying fitness math though | 17:34 |
| fenn | you can have two mutually exclusive plagues where, depending on a random variable, resistance to one or the other is selected for | 17:35 |
| fenn | in fact you can actually build this with a vial of bacteria and two different antibiotics | 17:35 |
| kanzure | selection doesn't work like that | 17:36 |
| fenn | ok sometimes there are tradeoffs and sometimes there aren't | 17:37 |
| kanzure | what did this have to do with your reputation system, again? | 17:37 |
| fenn | uh, now i'm not making sense | 17:37 |
| fenn | reputation is one of those things that is meaningless out of context | 17:38 |
| fenn | like reproductive fitness | 17:38 |
| -!- ebowden [~ebowden@147.69.147.27] has joined ##hplusroadmap | 17:40 | |
| fenn | streety: in ancient times, better hunters ate more food and were taller, so it was a quick shortcut to determining who to follow, who to mate, etc | 17:42 |
| kragen | [ev psych just so story] | 17:42 |
| fenn | height is still correlated with IQ to a small degree | 17:43 |
| kragen | it's a large degree if the population you sample from includes people who were malnourished as children | 17:43 |
| fenn | "... or that both height and intelligence may be affected by adverse early environmental exposures." | 17:44 |
| kanzure | i don't know what this is http://aflowlib.org/apps.php | 17:45 |
| kanzure | "Library of online structural ab initio calculations (308975 Calculations)" | 17:45 |
| fenn | or more importantly for our evo-psycho story, that "common genetic factors can influence both hight and intelligence" | 17:46 |
| kanzure | "sponsored by Department of Homeland Security - Domestic Nuclear Detection Office ." | 17:46 |
| kragen | "AFLOWLIB.ORG: a distributed materials properties repository from high-throughput ab initio calculations" | 17:46 |
| fenn | it doesn't really matter why height is desirable, it just is | 17:48 |
| kanzure | http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Campbell%27s_law | 17:49 |
| kanzure | "The more any quantitative social indicator (or even some qualitative indicator) is used for social decision-making, the more subject it will be to corruption pressures and the more apt it will be to distort and corrupt the social processes it is intended to monitor." | 17:49 |
| jrayhawk | pygmyism is what happens in environments of scarcity; the large take too many calories to mate with | 17:49 |
| jrayhawk | so it can go both ways | 17:49 |
| jrayhawk | but yes, usually tall is a giant advantage | 17:49 |
| kanzure | why is the evo psych stuff even necessary, why not just say "tall people tended to be tall and do tall people things" | 17:49 |
| jrayhawk | because it adds a general associative fitness factor | 17:50 |
| jrayhawk | or, adds to a general ssociative fitness factor, rather | 17:50 |
| fenn | i don't see why it's necessarily "evo psych" - it sounds like run of the mill sexual selection to me | 17:50 |
| -!- juri_ [~juri@vpn166.sdf.org] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] | 17:50 | |
| kanzure | .wik kerckhoff's principle | 17:51 |
| yoleaux | "In cryptography, Kerckhoffs's principle (also called Kerckhoffs's desiderata, Kerckhoffs's assumption, axiom, or law) was stated by Auguste Kerckhoffs in the 19th century: A cryptosystem should be secure even if everything about the system, except the key, is public knowledge." — http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kerckhoff%27s_principle | 17:51 |
| -!- juri_ [~juri@vpn166.sdf.org] has joined ##hplusroadmap | 17:51 | |
| -!- TheShadowFog [~TheShadow@2601:8:3e80:c:7d71:2e6c:7049:6035] has quit [Quit: Leaving] | 17:52 | |
| fenn | i love the examples on this page http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Perverse_incentive | 17:52 |
| -!- TheShadowFog [~TheShadow@2601:8:3e80:c:7d71:2e6c:7049:6035] has joined ##hplusroadmap | 17:53 | |
| kragen | once we're talking about tallness influencing things other than sexual attractiveness, we've gone beyond run of the mill sexual selection into evpsycho | 17:54 |
| jrayhawk | i am an evpsycho, it is true | 17:54 |
| kanzure | "Before the Anatomy Act of 1832, executed criminals were the only legal source of bodies for hospitals to use for surgeon training. Due to high demand from chronic shortage of legal cadavers, "resurrection men" resorted to illegal means to obtain bodies, such as digging up corpses from graveyards or even murder. In 1828, William Burke and William Hare murdered 16 people and sold the bodies. Thomas Williams and John Bishop, part of a group of ... | 17:55 |
| kanzure | ... body snatchers known as the London Burkers, committed murder for the purpose of selling the victim's body in 1831." | 17:55 |
| fenn | what if tallness is correlated with running speed, is that "ev psych"? | 17:55 |
| kanzure | the only fitting punishment is to execute them and sell their bodies to science as well | 17:55 |
| kragen | fenn: no, that's just kinematics :) | 17:55 |
| kanzure | "illegal means to obtain bodies" | 17:55 |
| kanzure | man, why don't serial killers sell the bodies | 17:56 |
| kanzure | .wik anatomy act of 1832 | 17:56 |
| yoleaux | "The Anatomy Act 1832 (2 & 3 Will. IV c.75) was an Act of Parliament in the United Kingdom that gave freer licence to doctors, teachers of anatomy and bona fide medical students to dissect donated bodies. It was enacted in response to public revulsion at the illegal trade in corpses." — http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anatomy_Act_of_1832 | 17:56 |
| fenn | i'm really not following how sexual attractiveness is not psychology? | 17:56 |
| kragen | well, Burke and Hare were serial killers who sell the bodies | 17:56 |
| kragen | fenn: it is! | 17:56 |
| kanzure | why do you need psychology for sexual attraction? | 17:56 |
| fenn | because humans are not animalsss!!! | 17:57 |
| kanzure | "The Act was repealed by the Anatomy Act 1984, which was, in turn, repealed by the Human Tissue Act 2004. Access to corpses for the purposes of medical science is now regulated by the Human Tissue Authority." | 17:57 |
| kragen | sexual attraction is a psychological phenomenon, no? | 17:57 |
| kanzure | .wik human tissue authority | 17:57 |
| yoleaux | "The Human Tissue Authority (HTA) is an executive non-departmental public body of the Department of Health. It regulates the removal, storage, use and disposal of human bodies, organs and tissue for a number of scheduled purposes such as research, transplantation, and education and training." — http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_Tissue_Authority | 17:57 |
| kragen | .ety repeal | 17:57 |
| yoleaux | repeal (v.): "late 14c., from Anglo-French repeler, Old French rapeler "call back, call in, call after, revoke" (Modern French rappeler), from re- "back" (see re-) + apeler "to call" (see appeal (v.)). Related: Repealed; repealing." — http://etymonline.com/index.php?term=repeal | 17:57 |
| jrayhawk | i am confused, what does this have to do with a theoretical reputation system | 17:58 |
| fenn | because tallness correlates with trustworthiness, apparently | 17:58 |
| jrayhawk | oh, okay, yeah | 17:58 |
| fenn | actually i just made that up | 17:58 |
| jrayhawk | is someone arguing against that in principle, or in practice? | 17:58 |
| fenn | kanzure is saying that we can never trust anything anyone says because someone can game the system | 17:59 |
| -!- juri_ [~juri@vpn166.sdf.org] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] | 17:59 | |
| kanzure | trust is a terrible idea | 17:59 |
| kragen | ha | 17:59 |
| kragen | jrayhawk: basically the question is how to make a useful reputation system | 17:59 |
| jrayhawk | don't conflate imperfection with uselessness | 17:59 |
| kragen | in the face of Goodhart's Law | 18:00 |
| kragen | fenn posited height as a good measure that is still a target | 18:00 |
| kragen | since it's hard to game | 18:00 |
| jrayhawk | tell that to the chinese folks getting bone grafts | 18:00 |
| jrayhawk | oh, i guess it's breaking and rehealing incrementally, not grafting | 18:01 |
| fenn | that's what i said, but then i realized they got all the advantages of being tall | 18:01 |
| jrayhawk | christ, so complicated | 18:01 |
| kragen | both fenn and I brought that up too | 18:01 |
| kragen | 01:20 < fenn> yeah people chop their legs apart and stuff, it's gross | 18:01 |
| kragen | 01:20 < kragen> think about dwarfs taking HGH and Chinese femur lengthening surgery | 18:01 |
| kanzure | "wow for some reason the people in here have the same thoughts!" is not surprising | 18:01 |
| kragen | 41 minutes ago | 18:01 |
| kragen | so the question is how to do useful reputation systems | 18:01 |
| kanzure | or if you can survive without one just fine | 18:02 |
| kanzure | or if reputation is a bad idea | 18:02 |
| jrayhawk | PGP seems pretty good, but gmaxwell pointed out that there really aren't social incentives to report or act on reports of bad players in the trust web | 18:02 |
| jrayhawk | there's no "anti-signing" | 18:02 |
| -!- rayston [~rayston@ip68-106-242-42.ph.ph.cox.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] | 18:02 | |
| fenn | pgp just says "these keys really belong to this person" right? | 18:03 |
| jrayhawk | ayup | 18:03 |
| kanzure | .w reputation | 18:04 |
| yoleaux | kanzure: Sorry, that command (.w) crashed. | 18:04 |
| fenn | but there's a cost involved in setting up your connections | 18:04 |
| jrayhawk | If and only if you want to do it right. | 18:04 |
| jrayhawk | There's no cost to doing it wrong. | 18:04 |
| fenn | it takes a nonzero effort and technical knowledge | 18:04 |
| kanzure | "the beliefs or opinions that are generally held about someone or something" | 18:05 |
| jrayhawk | And no incentives to punish those who do it wrong. | 18:05 |
| fenn | you can trust people with pgp keys not to be spammers, because so far it's not worth spammers' time to try to game the pgp trust network | 18:05 |
| kragen | .ud reputation | 18:06 |
| fenn | even though it wasn't set up for that purpose at all | 18:06 |
| jrayhawk | not yet, anyway | 18:06 |
| jrayhawk | once a spammer gets into the strong set, how to you incentivize trust path revocations? | 18:08 |
| fenn | shame? | 18:08 |
| jrayhawk | One person's word against another. | 18:09 |
| fenn | out of band verification | 18:09 |
| kragen | .wik reputation | 18:09 |
| yoleaux | "Reputation of a social entity (a person, a social group, an organization) is an opinion about that entity, typically a result of social evaluation on a set of criteria. It is important in business, education, online communities, and many other fields." — http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reputation | 18:09 |
| kragen | jrayhawk: is that even necessary? | 18:09 |
| kanzure | if reputation really mattered then you wouldn't see an infinite parade of scams on bitcointalk.org | 18:09 |
| fenn | i haven't read up on how the pgp network works, but "strong set" sounds fishy in principle | 18:10 |
| kragen | kanzure: why not? | 18:10 |
| kragen | I mean, what would happen to the infinite parade of scams if reputation really mattered? | 18:10 |
| jrayhawk | it's just a simple term meaning "is a part of the largest network" | 18:10 |
| fenn | "while islands of sets of keys that only sign each other in a disconnected group can and do exist, only one member of that group needs to exchange signatures with the strong set for that group to also become a part of the strong set" | 18:11 |
| fenn | ok that's dumb | 18:11 |
| fenn | that's not strong at all | 18:11 |
| fenn | "look at me, i'm on the internet, i'm in the strong set!" | 18:11 |
| jrayhawk | yeah, i agree it was poorly chosen | 18:11 |
| jrayhawk | okay, so if you have a network of, say, a hundred spammers, all of them interconnected trusting eachother because they don't care about doing things right, and each of them gets three signatures with the rest of the WoT, how can shame scale with that? | 18:12 |
| jrayhawk | to get rid of one of them, you're looking at dealing with 300 of them all at once | 18:13 |
| jrayhawk | do you think you can kill trust connections faster than they can make them? | 18:13 |
| kragen | jrayhawk: trust metrics like Advogato's and PageRank are robust against that kind of thing | 18:14 |
| jrayhawk | (I do not think you can kill most trust connections at all, mostly because PGP is about identity and not reputation) | 18:14 |
| kanzure | pagerank is not robust against that | 18:14 |
| kanzure | pagerank is getting things totally wrong all the time, what are you talking about | 18:14 |
| fenn | http://www.advogato.org/trust-metric.html scroll down to last figure | 18:15 |
| jrayhawk | PGP is somewhat extensible, so if we write a toolchain that isn't complete garbage we can probably graft a reputation system onto it. | 18:15 |
| kragen | there is one parameter in the PageRank algorithm from the paper which makes it potentially not robust against that, kanzure, it's true | 18:15 |
| kragen | but you can set that parameter quite low | 18:15 |
| kragen | that's the "random jump" probability, I forget what they called it | 18:15 |
| kragen | c | 18:16 |
| kragen | well, 1-c | 18:16 |
| -!- juri_ [~juri@vpn166.sdf.org] has joined ##hplusroadmap | 18:17 | |
| kragen | but if you disregard 1-c, then the PageRank entering the 300-spammer subgraph is independent of how many spammers are in it | 18:17 |
| kragen | that is, it's the same if it's just one spamming node or a whole interconnected subgraph of them | 18:18 |
| kragen | the Advogato metric is maybe more interesting | 18:18 |
| jrayhawk | thank you for pointing it out to me | 18:18 |
| fenn | i dont actually understand how you're supposed to figure out which nodes are "good" and which are "bad" | 18:19 |
| kragen | sure | 18:19 |
| kragen | fenn: typically you start by deifying yourself | 18:19 |
| fenn | i notice in the diagram the "bad" nodes only have one link to the supersink | 18:20 |
| fenn | but if they were really spammers they'd have lots of links to the thing they're spamming | 18:20 |
| kragen | yeah, Advogato's metric worked out well in practice but it wasn't subject to the level of attack that PageRank was | 18:21 |
| kragen | so on a different topic, I calculated that Iceland's geothermal resource is a few thousand times bigger than Ghawar | 18:23 |
| kragen | fossilized heat, in a sense, diffusing up through the crust on a timescale of billions of years | 18:24 |
| -!- ThomasEgi [~thomas@panda3d/ThomasEgi] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] | 18:25 | |
| -!- rayston [~rayston@ip68-106-242-42.ph.ph.cox.net] has joined ##hplusroadmap | 18:26 | |
| fenn | the jetstream is pretty powerful too | 18:27 |
| kragen | is it? how powerful? | 18:27 |
| fenn | enough to make it cold as fuck here :) | 18:27 |
| kragen | not very powerful then? | 18:27 |
| kragen | I think Iceland's not that atypical in quantity, just in how close the heat is to the surface. I think you could do self-sustaining robotic hot-dry rock heat mining. | 18:28 |
| kragen | pretty much anywhere. | 18:28 |
| kragen | and, at least for now, you could do it without attracting attention. | 18:29 |
| fenn | "There are two major scientific articles about jet stream power. Archer & Caldeira[36] claim that the jet streams can generate the total power of 1700 TW, and that the climatic impact will be negligible. Miller, Gans, & Kleidon[37] claim that the jet streams can generate the total power of only 7.5 TW, and that the climatic impact will be catastrophic." | 18:30 |
| kragen | 2011 world marketed energy consumption is 17.5 terawatts | 18:31 |
| -!- Vutral [ss@mirbsd/special/Vutral] has joined ##hplusroadmap | 18:31 | |
| fenn | that's quite a difference in estimates | 18:31 |
| kanzure | "large hadron migrator" https://github.com/soundcloud/lhm | 18:31 |
| kragen | so either way it's a significant amount of power | 18:31 |
| kragen | but it's also not thousands of times bigger than Ghawar except at the high end | 18:31 |
| fenn | one is power and one is energy, not the same thing | 18:32 |
| -!- justanotheruser [~Justan@unaffiliated/justanotheruser] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] | 18:32 | |
| kragen | yes, it depends on what timescale you are contemplating mining the energy over, or if you're just planning to extract sustainably | 18:33 |
| kragen | https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Enhanced_geothermal_system#EGS_potential_in_the_United_States says 13000 ZJ with 200 ZJ extractable in the US | 18:34 |
| kragen | 200 ZJ / 50 years is 130 terawatts | 18:34 |
| fenn | 50 years is not very long | 18:36 |
| fenn | that's less than the operating life of a nuclear plant | 18:36 |
| kragen | should be long enough to start launching a Dyson swarm | 18:37 |
| fenn | lack of energy is not the problem there | 18:37 |
| fenn | do you know about space tethers? | 18:38 |
| fenn | the rotating kind | 18:38 |
| kragen | natch | 18:39 |
| kanzure | jrayhawk: maybe you could pay for link removal or something with a fraud proof | 18:39 |
| kanzure | jrayhawk: so if a fraud proof ever happens then the other links should be automagically reverted when shown the fraud proof or something | 18:39 |
| kanzure | jrayhawk: even if that person isn't online or taking actions | 18:40 |
| kanzure | andytoshi would have some okay ideas for how to construct proofs of fraud or something | 18:40 |
| fenn | kragen: solar power can be efficiently converted to orbital kinetic energy and transferred to suborbital flying objects http://tethers.com/MXTethers2.html http://tethers.com/EDTethers.html | 18:41 |
| kragen | fenn: I think the problem there is the lack of self-reproducing asteroid-mining robots | 18:41 |
| kanzure | a prediction market about reputation fraud would probably suffer from the ability of the fraudsters to make bets in or against their favor | 18:41 |
| kragen | interesting, didn't know that | 18:42 |
| fenn | this uses currently existing materials too, no wacky carbon nanotubes | 18:42 |
| jrayhawk | well, that's why you only provide as much incentive as their is value in the reputation | 18:42 |
| jrayhawk | s/their/there/ | 18:42 |
| fenn | oh there's a video somewhere that shows how this works | 18:43 |
| jrayhawk | i would be entirely willing to associate a few mBTC with every reputation claim i make | 18:43 |
| kanzure | a fraudster can always tank his reputation and cash out against the bonds or something | 18:44 |
| jrayhawk | Which is basically how it works in real life, too. | 18:44 |
| kanzure | well that's useless | 18:45 |
| fenn | kragen: http://youtu.be/mPx1Nq80jm8 | 18:45 |
| jrayhawk | Empirically not useless. | 18:45 |
| jrayhawk | Just not perfect. | 18:45 |
| kanzure | the point was to have a system that is more useful than not existing at all | 18:46 |
| jrayhawk | well, the difficulty is that the lack of formalization means there's a lot more guesswork in real life | 18:46 |
| kanzure | enough to justify or cover the costs of development, maintenance and use | 18:46 |
| jrayhawk | like, what if we could automatically confirm every claim on a resume? | 18:46 |
| -!- Viper168 [~Viper@unaffiliated/viper168] has joined ##hplusroadmap | 18:47 | |
| kanzure | what does that even mean | 18:47 |
| kragen | fenn: I recommended someone else to watch Emacs screencasts today, so I am watching this video you linked as my penance | 18:47 |
| jrayhawk | like if i go up to every previous boss i have had and told them to sign each of my claims for what i achieved | 18:48 |
| kragen | fenn: I don't know that orbital momentum exchange tethers really solve the problem | 18:50 |
| kragen | they cut it in half | 18:50 |
| jrayhawk | hiring a treasurer on the strength of a confirmable resume rather than a guessworkable resume doesn't mean they can't still run off to the bahamas, but it is at least improved priors | 18:50 |
| kragen | but getting to orbit in the first place is already pretty hard | 18:50 |
| kanzure | jrayhawk: or you can use a system where your treasurer never has the private keys to sign away your treasury anyway | 18:50 |
| fenn | kragen: the rocket equation says that if you halve the delta V required you square the payload capacity (i'm probably getting it wrong) | 18:50 |
| jrayhawk | yeah, well, you have to trust everybody with everything sooner or later | 18:51 |
| kragen | self-reproducing geothermal heat-mining robots are already halfway to being self-reproducing asteroid-mining robots | 18:51 |
| jrayhawk | but yes, hopefully you don't have to trust somebody with everything. | 18:51 |
| kanzure | do we really have to call those astrochickens still | 18:51 |
| kanzure | .wik astrochicken | 18:51 |
| yoleaux | "Astrochicken is the name given to a thought experiment expounded by theoretical physicist Freeman Dyson. In his book Disturbing the Universe (1979), Dyson contemplated how humanity could build a small, self-replicating automaton that could explore space more efficiently than a manned craft could." — http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Astrochicken | 18:51 |
| fenn | the video spends too much time on the rocket launch and not enough on how tethers work | 18:52 |
| kragen | that is true | 18:52 |
| fenn | it shows boosting from LEO to GTO, but it can also work for boosting suborbital to LEO | 18:52 |
| fenn | or you can do both, or do stuff like pick up bags of dirt from the moon and use them to power your tether launch system | 18:53 |
| jrayhawk | i guess a bitcoin-like formalized structural incentive system for reputation would pretty much turn society into a unified paperclip maximizer. | 18:53 |
| jrayhawk | that sounds like fun. | 18:53 |
| kragen | "See also: Grey goo" | 18:53 |
| jrayhawk | bitcoin is like halfway there | 18:53 |
| kragen | jrayhawk: gold coinage is halfway there | 18:53 |
| kanzure | uh? | 18:54 |
| fenn | kragen a boost from a tether is the difference between riding to orbit on spaceshiptwo vs a falcon-9 | 18:54 |
| jrayhawk | gold coinage is halfway to bitcoinage, maybe | 18:54 |
| fenn | in economic terms that's $200,000 per person vs $20,000,000 | 18:54 |
| kragen | kanzure: 2500 years ago we started coining gold into coins, and ever since then society has suffered massive paperclip-maximizing problems | 18:55 |
| kragen | actually maybe you could go back further to heterotrophy, but gold coinage has really exacerbated the situation | 18:56 |
| jrayhawk | Yeah, basically true. | 18:56 |
| jrayhawk | Obviously it's subject to manipulation on account of physical control and has actual instrumental value, so it's a bit more distorted than BTC, but it is a big part of the progression. | 18:58 |
| fenn | damn those carbohydrate maximizers! | 18:58 |
| kragen | fenn: I see what you mean | 18:59 |
| jrayhawk | anyway, re: reputation: proportional response to disreputable acts seems really hard | 19:00 |
| fenn | once you have cheap transport to orbit, using orbital solar power is way cheaper | 19:00 |
| fenn | it sounds dumb when i say it like that | 19:01 |
| kragen | it might be true | 19:01 |
| kragen | how do you get the energy to earth? boron and aluminum meteorites? | 19:01 |
| kanzure | jrayhawk: also the disreputable act is out-of-band anyway, so that makes it inaccessible or something | 19:01 |
| kragen | or do you just not bother? | 19:01 |
| fenn | o'neill did a lot of calculations on using phased array masers to transmit power from GEO to stationary antenna arrays | 19:02 |
| fenn | it turned out to be efficient and impossible to use as a weapon | 19:03 |
| kragen | yeah, but I don't think you can make rectennas much more power-dense than sunlight, or much cheaper than photovoltaic | 19:03 |
| kragen | photovoltaic on the ground, I mean | 19:03 |
| fenn | how could it not be cheaper than photovoltaics, it's just wires | 19:03 |
| kragen | I haven't done the math, though, so I could be wrong | 19:03 |
| kragen | photovoltaic is really, really cheap | 19:03 |
| kragen | I mean it's reduced and doped sand with wires on it | 19:03 |
| fenn | ok well tune your frequency to whatever power density makes sense | 19:04 |
| fenn | vaporize new jersey for all i care | 19:04 |
| kragen | with the rectenna you avoid having to reduce and dope the sand but you don't avoid the wires | 19:04 |
| kragen | and the usual proposal is to use microwaves, so the wires have to be fairly dense | 19:04 |
| kragen | I mean, densely spread | 19:04 |
| kragen | a few centimeters apart | 19:04 |
| fenn | 1 meter apart | 19:05 |
| fenn | for birds | 19:05 |
| fenn | microwaves would cook birds | 19:05 |
| kragen | not if the power density is low enough | 19:05 |
| fenn | well, not really it turns out | 19:05 |
| fenn | right, the power density is about 1kW/m^2 or equivalent to sunlight, but if you're a bird that's enough to make you not want to fly around | 19:06 |
| kragen | could be, yeah | 19:06 |
| fenn | with a longer wavelength the bird doesn't absorb any heat at all | 19:06 |
| kragen | why do the existing rectenna proposals use microwaves? | 19:06 |
| fenn | because we lack a suitable vocabulary for specifying wavelength ranges | 19:07 |
| fenn | the reason they set the power density at 1kW/m^2 was to allay the fears of the public | 19:08 |
| fenn | you can have higher power densities with long wave | 19:08 |
| fenn | i dont remember the maximum | 19:08 |
| kragen | I'm skeptical | 19:09 |
| fenn | of what exactly | 19:09 |
| kragen | that the reason is that "we lack a suitable vocabulary for specifying wavelength ranges" | 19:11 |
| kragen | I suspect it's Airy-spot diameter at geosynchronous focal lengths | 19:11 |
| kragen | or something else similarly difficult to overcome | 19:12 |
| -!- pete4242 [~smuxi@boole.london.hackspace.org.uk] has joined ##hplusroadmap | 19:12 | |
| fenn | oh, that too | 19:13 |
| fenn | it's either the birds or new jersey | 19:13 |
| kragen | I think the boron and aluminum meteorites are more feasible | 19:14 |
| delinquentme | gun kata | 19:15 |
| delinquentme | https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A2KJHysK6k8 | 19:15 |
| delinquentme | bc | 19:15 |
| kanzure | .title | 19:15 |
| yoleaux | Equilibrium Gun Kata Compilation - YouTube | 19:15 |
| fenn | awful movie | 19:15 |
| fenn | it's "the matrix" without all the robots and philosophy | 19:15 |
| fenn | kragen: what do you do with the meteorites? | 19:17 |
| delinquentme | fenn, better movie suggestion? | 19:17 |
| fenn | oh another powertransfer mechanism is a launch loop or similar dynamic compression system | 19:18 |
| jrayhawk | i quite liked Revolver | 19:18 |
| jrayhawk | original UK cut if possible, but the U.S. cut was tolerable | 19:19 |
| fenn | delinquentme: if you're into kung fu, i liked Azumi and House of Flying Daggers | 19:19 |
| kragen | fenn: burn them in oxygen from the atmosphere | 19:20 |
| kanzure | .title https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bXcmG2uvgRY | 19:20 |
| yoleaux | Fist of the North Star (1995 Live Action) - YouTube | 19:20 |
| fenn | kragen: waste of energy.. the meteorites are worth more in orbit due to their kinetic energy | 19:21 |
| kanzure | trailer: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4xRxlusrAT4 | 19:21 |
| kragen | really? | 19:21 |
| fenn | .wa 0.5*kg*orbitalvelocity^2 in MJ | 19:21 |
| yoleaux | fenn: Sorry, no result! | 19:21 |
| kragen | I hadn't done that calculation before | 19:21 |
| fenn | gasoline is 49MJ/kg | 19:21 |
| kragen | yes | 19:21 |
| kragen | LEO is 8km/s | 19:22 |
| fenn | assuming low earth orbit is 8km/s that yields 32MJ/kg | 19:22 |
| kragen | which is 32kJ/kg | 19:22 |
| kragen | sorry, MJ | 19:22 |
| kragen | as you said | 19:22 |
| kragen | boron is 58.9MJ/kg if you burn it in oxygen | 19:23 |
| kragen | so dropping it to earth only loses a bit over a third of the energy it had in orbit, the kinetic third | 19:24 |
| kragen | aluminum is 31MJ/kg | 19:24 |
| kragen | so you lose half | 19:25 |
| kragen | not as efficient as rectennas but likely a lot more practical | 19:25 |
| fenn | boron-11 is 1377109 MJ/kg if you burn it in hydrogen :P | 19:25 |
| kragen | especially if you can just use the aluminum rather than burning it for heat | 19:25 |
| kragen | heh, you mean with fusion? | 19:25 |
| fenn | right | 19:25 |
| kragen | burning boron is tricky. aluminum less so. | 19:27 |
| fenn | burning things is inefficient | 19:28 |
| kragen | both have the advantage that they can survive a lot of abuse in contact with air | 19:28 |
| kragen | only 60% inefficient though | 19:28 |
| fenn | more than that i'd wager | 19:28 |
| fenn | would you be boiling steam and turning turbines? or some kind of molten salt fuel cell? | 19:28 |
| fenn | aluminum can generate hydrogen fairly easily | 19:29 |
| fenn | just use electricity, sheesh | 19:29 |
| kragen | boiling steam and turning turbines at a large scale is often about 38% efficient these days | 19:30 |
| fenn | there was a lot of sci-fi about metastable helium isotopes as an energy storage medium | 19:30 |
| kragen | you could, yes, probably also use aluminum as a plate in a battery | 19:31 |
| fenn | no i mean, skip the aluminum and just transfer electricity via microwave | 19:31 |
| kragen | like a molten-cryolite and carbon fuel cell, the same thing as an aluminum electrolysis pot in reverse | 19:31 |
| kragen | I don't know that that's more efficient | 19:31 |
| superkuh | What is the dielectric strength of a typical environment induced aluminum oxide coating? Can the thickness of it be controlled by any mechanism? | 19:31 |
| superkuh | (on aluminum) | 19:31 |
| kragen | superkuh: in many cases people anodize aluminum to thicken that coating | 19:32 |
| fenn | mercury readily dissolves the aluminum oxide, and there are probably other catalysts | 19:32 |
| kragen | does it really dissolve it? I've wondered how that works | 19:32 |
| superkuh | Excellent. Thanks. | 19:32 |
| fenn | there are aluminum alloys that don't form skin at all | 19:32 |
| kragen | superkuh: lots of aluminum things are actually anodized aluminum | 19:32 |
| kragen | in many cases people incorporate other crap into the coating to e.g. color it | 19:33 |
| kragen | e.g. black | 19:33 |
| fenn | also known as "sorta purple" or "sorta green" | 19:33 |
| kragen | you can get those without even dyeing it though :) | 19:33 |
| superkuh | I've been trying to find a low temperature curing alumina coating epoxy for about a year. I needed to coat a thin copper wire. A lot of the rest of the machine is already aluminum (the capacitor plates) and I know how to solder to it. Just growing it on an aluminum wire and then filing under oil might just work. | 19:33 |
| superkuh | This is relevant to the discussion because I am building a demo dense plasma focus. | 19:34 |
| fenn | superkuh: you could do a reduction reaction to plate the copper with aluminum, and then anodize it | 19:34 |
| fenn | or sputter aluminum onto it and then anodize | 19:34 |
| superkuh | Aluminum is already pretty conductive. | 19:35 |
| kragen | fenn: how would you electroplate aluminum onto copper? you'd need a water-free electrolyte, no? | 19:35 |
| fenn | iodine and aluminum metal burns and covers stuff around it with aluminum metal | 19:36 |
| kragen | you're saying to heat up AlI₂ in air? | 19:38 |
| kragen | uh, I guess it's AlI₃ (beats me as to why) | 19:39 |
| fenn | hum it might leave a film of aluminum iodide instead | 19:39 |
| fenn | Al2I6 | 19:39 |
| kragen | yeah | 19:40 |
| fenn | superkuh: i didnt really understand your problem, but you can use zinc-based solders to connect aluminum components (alumalloy) | 19:46 |
| -!- justanotheruser [~Justan@unaffiliated/justanotheruser] has joined ##hplusroadmap | 19:46 | |
| fenn | Procedure: | 19:52 |
| fenn | Clean the area to be soldered | 19:52 |
| fenn | Apply Stay Clean aluminum flux | 19:52 |
| fenn | Heat until the flux becomes a nut brown color | 19:53 |
| fenn | Apply the alloy | 19:53 |
| kragen | superkuh: normal electrolytic capacitors actually involve growing aluminum oxide coatings I think | 19:53 |
| heath | fenn just described my job from ~6 years ago | 19:54 |
| fenn | ok heath now finish that plasma focus fusion device | 19:55 |
| -!- juri_ [~juri@vpn166.sdf.org] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] | 19:55 | |
| fenn | remember, we are CITIZEN CYBER SOLDIERS | 19:55 |
| kanzure | wrong channel | 19:56 |
| kanzure | no context | 19:56 |
| fenn | amendment N freedom of context | 19:57 |
| fenn | the state shall make no law restricting grammar or the use of intercontextuality | 19:59 |
| kanzure | http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-362PrgdQUNQ/UH-urJVH_gI/AAAAAAAAJEQ/pFiWlfpY_ZI/s1600/dredd-3d-headshot.jpg | 20:02 |
| kragen | fenn: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cZkAP-CQlhA sometimes maintaining microwave antennas can have unexpected difficulties | 20:03 |
| fenn | now imagine all those are meteors falling from the sky | 20:07 |
| fenn | due to the way momentum exchange tethers work, no energy is expended if the mass on the tether remains constant, so you could download the refined metal and upload raw ore for only the cost of suborbital launch | 20:09 |
| fenn | you'd end up with a mass imbalance unless you were downloading oxygen | 20:10 |
| kragen | yeah, burning extraterrestrial fuel will deplete atmospheric oxygen | 20:11 |
| kragen | but that won't become a problem until world marketed energy consumption is several times greater than at present | 20:11 |
| fenn | i mean on the tether, the masses going down will be less than the masses going up | 20:11 |
| kragen | oh | 20:12 |
| kragen | yeah | 20:12 |
| kragen | or you just use ablative heat shielding to land the meteorites | 20:12 |
| kragen | and a parachute or something | 20:12 |
| fenn | but that's super wasteful | 20:12 |
| kragen | I think the waste is very small | 20:13 |
| kanzure | kragen: find me something clever to do with eyelash diffraction | 20:13 |
| fenn | it's half the energy of your energy storage medium, it's not small! | 20:13 |
| kragen | oh, I thought you meant the material that gets ablated | 20:13 |
| kanzure | .title http://lav.io/2014/11/stupid-projects-from-the-stupid-hackathon/ | 20:14 |
| yoleaux | Stupid Projects From The Stupid Hackathon – Sam Lavigne | 20:14 |
| kragen | yeah, that's wasteful of energy | 20:14 |
| fenn | ipad on a face is a good idea | 20:15 |
| kanzure | "Egg Timer by Pam Liou is an hourglass that counts down to menopause." | 20:15 |
| fenn | also profanity65 is good | 20:16 |
| fenn | it should dynamically generate compound profanities though | 20:19 |
| kragen | I don't understand profanity65 | 20:19 |
| fenn | cuntpunter asspunter horsepunter etc | 20:19 |
| kragen | are the signatures it generates valid? if so, how? | 20:20 |
| fenn | ar symbol_index = originalSymbols.indexOf(original_line[sym]); new_line.push(profanity[symbol_index]); | 20:20 |
| fenn | you have to have a copy of the profanity list on both ends of course | 20:20 |
| kragen | oh, it doesn't interoperate with standard PGP? | 20:21 |
| kragen | that's cool | 20:21 |
| fenn | so "a" becomes "anal", "b" becomes "ass", "c" becomes "asshat" | 20:22 |
| kragen | sure. you could improve efficiency a bit but whatever | 20:22 |
| fenn | oh you can encrypt too | 20:25 |
| fenn | "You don't need cables, pipes, gas or copper wires. We can send it to you like a cell phone call—where you want it and when you want it, in real time." | 20:34 |
| -!- CheckDavid [uid14990@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-butqbhoardxhwipg] has quit [Quit: Connection closed for inactivity] | 20:37 | |
| -!- TheShadowFog [~TheShadow@2601:8:3e80:c:7d71:2e6c:7049:6035] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] | 20:37 | |
| superkuh | Soldering isn't the issue. I just want to minimize the anode size while copying the design from Leopoldo Soto and Christian Pavez. They do not include much detail about how they prevent flashover of the capacitor plates in their parallel plate design. The anode punctures the dielectric. This diagram should make it more clear, dfp_annotated_anode_hole.png | 20:41 |
| superkuh | Er, oops. | 20:41 |
| superkuh | http://superkuh.com/dfp_annotated_anode_hole.png | 20:42 |
| jrayhawk | http://scholar.google.com/scholar?q=sybil+reputation so much to read | 20:50 |
| -!- rayston [~rayston@ip68-106-242-42.ph.ph.cox.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] | 21:01 | |
| -!- juri_ [~juri@vpn166.sdf.org] has joined ##hplusroadmap | 21:07 | |
| -!- ThomasEgi [~thomas@panda3d/ThomasEgi] has joined ##hplusroadmap | 21:32 | |
| -!- gene_hacker [~chatzilla@c-50-137-46-240.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has joined ##hplusroadmap | 21:39 | |
| -!- Vutral [ss@mirbsd/special/Vutral] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] | 21:40 | |
| -!- Vutral [ss@mirbsd/special/Vutral] has joined ##hplusroadmap | 22:05 | |
| -!- yashgaroth [~ffffff@2606:6000:cb85:6a00:50a4:f569:684f:fe1b] has quit [Quit: Leaving] | 22:11 | |
| -!- ebowden [~ebowden@147.69.147.27] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] | 22:22 | |
| -!- ebowden [~ebowden@147.69.147.27] has joined ##hplusroadmap | 23:10 | |
| kanzure | http://i.imgur.com/5iHr8fz.jpg | 23:56 |
| --- Log closed Tue Nov 18 00:00:54 2014 | ||
Generated by irclog2html.py 2.15.0.dev0 by Marius Gedminas - find it at mg.pov.lt!
