| --- Log opened Mon Nov 24 00:00:00 2014 | ||
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| ebowden | paperbot: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15652870 | 00:28 |
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| ebowden | :( | 00:48 |
| ebowden | paperbot: http://www.biologicalpsychiatryjournal.com/article/S0006-3223%2810%2900497-X/pdf | 00:49 |
| ebowden | paperbot: http://www.biologicalpsychiatryjournal.com/article/S0006-3223%2810%2900497-X/abstract | 00:50 |
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| kanzure | .title https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8650952 | 02:11 |
| yoleaux | On Linux, 'less' can probably get you owned | Hacker News | 02:11 |
| kanzure | pycnopodia helianthoides is dying? | 02:12 |
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| sheena | .title http://www.leevalley.com/en/garden/page.aspx?c=&p=46784&cat=2,2120 | 02:19 |
| yoleaux | Sugar Tester (Brix Refractometer) - Lee Valley Tools | 02:19 |
| sheena | thinking about trying to convert this to use for USG/SP | 02:19 |
| ebowden | paperbot: http://www.biologicalpsychiatryjournal.com/article/S0006-3223%2810%2900497-X/abstract | 02:19 |
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| sheena | http://www.staples.ca/en/REED-MT-032-Refractometer-0-32-BRIX/product_992089_2-CA_1_20001 local one.. why staples?? | 02:23 |
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| genehacker | because staples sells office supplies | 02:40 |
| genehacker | haven't you ever needed to homebrew inkjet ink? | 02:41 |
| sheena | lol indeed | 02:41 |
| chris_99 | this may be of interest to some peeps https://www.anfractuosity.com/files/microfluidics/Product%20code_USD.pdf - microfluidic slides that are around 33$ each | 02:47 |
| genehacker | they're just mixers? | 02:50 |
| chris_99 | mainly yeah | 02:50 |
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| kanzure | hello eudoxia | 06:41 |
| eudoxia | hi | 06:42 |
| kanzure | eudoxia: how much money do you estimate it would take to get cryonics working for a small mammal? | 06:43 |
| eudoxia | kanzure: like a rat, or a dog? | 06:44 |
| eudoxia | hm, i suppose i would look into the costs of Mike Darwin's dog perfusion experiments | 06:44 |
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| kanzure | were those on his chromachronacryoblog? | 06:47 |
| JayDugger | Good morning, everyone. | 06:47 |
| eudoxia | i think there was a brief description on his biography articles | 06:47 |
| eudoxia | i think there was a copy of the paper, in HTML, on the alcor website | 06:48 |
| kanzure | why dogs though? have rats been done? | 06:48 |
| eudoxia | http://www.alcor.org/Library/html/tbwcanine.html | 06:48 |
| JayDugger | At a guess, because of the history of perfusion experiments with dog.s. | 06:48 |
| eudoxia | rats are pretty small | 06:48 |
| eudoxia | you might have problems e.g. cannulating them | 06:49 |
| JayDugger | Do cooling rates change much across dogs, rats, and humans? | 06:49 |
| eudoxia | also, their brains are very small, so when evaluating the perfusion with a CAT scan you have a lower ratio of brain volume to the spatial resolution | 06:49 |
| JayDugger | Ah. | 06:49 |
| eudoxia | a larger dog brain gives you more, so to speak, room for error | 06:50 |
| kanzure | well why not just go straight up to a whale? | 06:50 |
| eudoxia | whale brains don't fit in portable CAT scanners ;> | 06:50 |
| kanzure | https://anboswell.files.wordpress.com/2014/11/blue-whale-heart.jpg | 06:50 |
| eudoxia | >A second set of dogs was treated with a simpler protocol, similar to the type used previously in cryonics and still favored by some cryonicists who prefer simpler, less costly perfusion. The period of perfusion was briefer, and the terminal concentration of glycerol was lower. Brain tissue from these animals showed much higher levels of damage. | 06:51 |
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| eudoxia | kanzure: so what do you want to cryopreserve? | 06:57 |
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| kanzure | eudoxia: humans, eventually | 06:57 |
| kanzure | eudoxia: but it is cheaper to not use humans in tests | 06:57 |
| eudoxia | hm eleitl has probably estimated the costs, since he was going to do tests with human cadavers | 06:58 |
| kanzure | why would you start with humans?? | 07:01 |
| eudoxia | small mammals have been done before | 07:02 |
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| kanzure | huh? i only remember a rabbit brain that didn't quite work after thawing. | 07:02 |
| eudoxia | i guess he didn't want to reinvent the entire history of cryonics | 07:02 |
| eudoxia | well those dogs survived extremely low temperature hypothermia | 07:02 |
| kanzure | refs please? | 07:03 |
| eudoxia | i don't know about the rabbit brain | 07:03 |
| eudoxia | actually i think i vaguely remember that. was that an experiemtn done by CI? | 07:03 |
| kanzure | may have been a cat brain | 07:03 |
| kanzure | results were checked based on eeg activity | 07:03 |
| eudoxia | oh, the Suda experiment | 07:03 |
| kanzure | between 7-14 years of storage | 07:03 |
| eudoxia | yeah, the scientist kept it for 7 years and it still had EEG activity | 07:04 |
| eudoxia | that was in the sixties though | 07:04 |
| eudoxia | anyways, what i mean is cryonicists have done a ton of experiments and Alcor's current perfusate is the result of all those | 07:06 |
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| kanzure | maybe i just have unreasonable expectations | 07:08 |
| kanzure | but | 07:08 |
| kanzure | i would expect things like, once any protocol is figured out for small animals, to run 100s of animals through that protocol | 07:08 |
| kanzure | and also try various numbers of years of storage as well | 07:09 |
| kanzure | and things like "can the mouse researcher reliably pick out which mouse was frozen for a few years?" | 07:09 |
| kanzure | and "do they respond to stimuli in the way that they were previously trained or confirmed to respond?" | 07:10 |
| eudoxia | that would've been the case had cryonics been a part of mainstream science | 07:10 |
| eudoxia | but cryonics is more like the AIDS underground: informal, ad-hoc, we do what we can | 07:10 |
| kanzure | huh? | 07:11 |
| kanzure | but why is that not in the set of "things that we can do"? | 07:11 |
| eudoxia | the focus has been less on elementary research than on actually freezing people | 07:11 |
| kanzure | it seems to be totally necessary and pretty cheap | 07:11 |
| eudoxia | i agree | 07:11 |
| kanzure | well how do you explain eleitl's plans then | 07:12 |
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| eudoxia | a "best effort with what we know" thing rather than a scientific, thorough search for the ideal perfusion/cryopreservation setup | 07:13 |
| kanzure | doesn't have to be ideal, just has to work | 07:13 |
| kanzure | and work does not mean "yep it's cold" | 07:14 |
| eudoxia | well i think the problem of ice-blocking solutions is essentially solved with M-22 | 07:16 |
| eudoxia | except for that whole thing where it doesn't reach into myelinated axons | 07:16 |
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| eudoxia | the specific process of perfusion has evolved through trial-and-error, or at least that's what i got from Darwin's history of cryonics blog posts | 07:17 |
| eudoxia | ie the first perfusions used veterinary cannulae in the neck and gycerol, that's not the case anymore | 07:17 |
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| kanzure | how can it be trial-and-error without any results? | 07:18 |
| kanzure | don't mind me, i'm just being grumpy | 07:20 |
| eudoxia | in one of Darwin's history posts he discusses an evaluation where neuropatients are removed at CT-scanned while under liquid nitrogen | 07:20 |
| eudoxia | there are pictures of the heads and everything | 07:20 |
| kanzure | also, isn't it a little suspicious that alcor hasn't done these animal projects? | 07:20 |
| Qfwfq | Done or published? ;-) | 07:21 |
| kanzure | total costs of running animal attempts can get down pretty cheap i bet, like <$10/kg | 07:21 |
| kanzure | they would have published/publicized them, plus max more would have told me anyway | 07:21 |
| Qfwfq | An initial negative result would be a huge blow to them financially. | 07:22 |
| kanzure | why's that? everyone already knows it's a negative result. | 07:22 |
| Qfwfq | Because it reflects on in-use vitrification procedures. | 07:22 |
| Qfwfq | I was thinking less 'revival' and more 'preservation'. | 07:22 |
| Qfwfq | But yeah, I haven't studied this at all, ignore me, | 07:23 |
| eudoxia | it would be pretty bad if it turned out, no matter what, brains completely shattered at the microscale | 07:23 |
| kanzure | "no matter what" is a hard thing to show, so they're safe | 07:24 |
| eudoxia | of course | 07:24 |
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| kanzure | "> libnih is a small library for C application development containing functions that, despite its name, are not implemented elsewhere in the standard library set. | 07:28 |
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| catern | yeah, right | 07:41 |
| catern | just use glib canonical | 07:41 |
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| catern | "But why not just use glib I hear you ask? Well, glib is a very large library whereas NIH is small and designed for low-level daemons and systems which may be resource-constrained." | 07:41 |
| catern | "Other reasons to use NIH: | 07:41 |
| catern | It handles garbage collection for you | 07:41 |
| catern | That's right, you don't need to free memory manually." | 07:41 |
| catern | does not compute | 07:42 |
| kanzure | i am not sure how much of this is supposed to be "serious" versus "hint this whole thing is a joke because look at our name" | 07:42 |
| kanzure | a lot of this looks like bullshitting to me: http://wiki.opencog.org/w/CogPrime_Overview#Key_Claims | 07:43 |
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| kanzure | "To work toward adult human-level, roughly human-like general intelligence, one fairly easily comprehensible path is to use environments and goals reminiscent of human childhood, and seek to advance one’s AGI system along a path roughly comparable to that followed by human children." | 07:44 |
| kanzure | dogs don't go through that at all and they come out okay | 07:44 |
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| kanzure | i think that in general any agi plan will have to be based on something that is immune from the author having crazy or wrong theories of mind (often i see proposals based on really strange understandings of how the human brain works) | 07:50 |
| kanzure | so it has to be written in such a way that those types of problems don't get into the plans | 07:51 |
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| eudoxia | according to the opencog people by 2017 we'll have an AGI scientist | 08:07 |
| eudoxia | lol :c | 08:07 |
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| kanzure | more confusion about "diybio just means community labs" http://blogs.plos.org/citizensci/2014/11/24/synthetic-biology-diy-bio/ sigh | 08:09 |
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| maaku | kanzure: agi authors don't have to have an accurate model of the human mind | 09:21 |
| maaku | you just need a workable model. whether that model matches reality of the human brain is immaterial | 09:21 |
| maaku | kanzure: regarding your earlier question, non-uploading WBE is equivalent to AGI because you are escaping the problem of "how do we make a human-level intelligence?" | 09:25 |
| kanzure | escaping? | 09:25 |
| maaku | if you want to cut corners and optimize a WBE, you need to know what it is doing so you know what things you can simplify or eliminate | 09:26 |
| kanzure | and to you, non-uploading is cutting corners? | 09:26 |
| maaku | essentially I'm reading your plan as "let's emulate portions of the human brain until we know what it does, and then optimize it" | 09:26 |
| kanzure | i mean, to some extent typing in neuron parameters has to be considered "uploading" at least a little bit heh | 09:26 |
| maaku | or put differently, "let's figure out how to make an artificial general intelligence by studing the only non-artificial general intelligence we know, then implement an optimized version" | 09:28 |
| maaku | is that correct? | 09:28 |
| kanzure | at the moment the blue brain project's strategy is quite literally "let's take 200 computational neuroscience phd postdoc people, read a bunch of papers and type up parameters for different portions of the emulation" | 09:28 |
| kanzure | hmm, well i don't know about the optimization part- i mean, that should come later i think, and not an immediate primary focus of emulation | 09:29 |
| kanzure | but yes | 09:29 |
| maaku | right well I can't help but draw parallels to the 19th century engineers who tried to create flying machines with wings that flap | 09:29 |
| maaku | it's a reasonable default position -- in absence of anything else, study the one example we have. but the trouble is evolution didn't give us something that is simple to understand, or easy to reduce | 09:30 |
| maaku | but like flying machines, I expect that the first AGI will be built using theory divorced from biology | 09:30 |
| maaku | and in my case I'm convinced we have enough of a framework to start | 09:31 |
| kanzure | "the first agi will be built using theory divorced from agi" | 09:31 |
| maaku | ? | 09:31 |
| maaku | i don't understand what you're trying to say there | 09:33 |
| kanzure | btw, i totally reject the "wah evolution did hard stuff" argument. yes it takes effort, so what. | 09:34 |
| kanzure | flapping wings did work, you know. | 09:36 |
| maaku | bah building a machine that flys by flapping wings is insanely difficult | 09:42 |
| chris_99 | just buy a pigeon it's far easier | 09:42 |
| kanzure | yes it's difficult | 09:44 |
| kanzure | most of them work for at least a few seconds | 09:44 |
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| kanzure | anyway, is a kite a flying machine? matches a hawk, you know.. | 09:45 |
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| kragen | http://web.archive.org/web/19980515141315/http://hypernews.org/ it looks like HyperNews did predate Wiki, since it dates from 1994 at NCSA. but I don't think it supported editing existing "pages", just writing new messages | 09:54 |
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| kragen | hmm, it did: http://web.archive.org/web/19961120083549/http://union.ncsa.uiuc.edu/HyperNews/get/hypernews/about.html | 10:00 |
| kragen | " Rather, responses and base articles are maintained by whoever writes them in their own disk space, or responses may be stored on the server of the base article. Unlike news, articles and responses never expire (at least not now - that option will probably be added later) and they may be edited any time after being "posted"." | 10:00 |
| kragen | presumably that means they were editable through its web interface, as opposed to, say, vi article323.txt | 10:00 |
| kragen | it's sort of ambiguous though | 10:04 |
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| kragen | this seems to be Mr. HyperNews: https://plus.google.com/+DanielLaLiberte/about | 10:07 |
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| nmz787_i | do we have math people in here? | 11:13 |
| kanzure | sort of... | 11:13 |
| nmz787_i | just IMed this in ##math: hi! I am wondering about Partial Differential Equations, and how to apply them to find a solution to a set of arcs... where the only constraint is that the arcs cannot cross/intersect | 11:15 |
| nmz787_i | basically I learned last week how to integrate to find the arc length, but I am interested in finding the arc equation | 11:16 |
| nickjohnson | Hooray! Launched the fan kit! www.arachnidlabs.com/reload-pro/fan-kit.html | 11:16 |
| nmz787_i | totally read that as 'fap kit' | 11:17 |
| nmz787_i | nickjohnson: so I saw there are some AD9851 boards on ebay | 11:17 |
| nickjohnson | nmz787_i: Yup | 11:17 |
| nmz787_i | and even some for the 9854 | 11:17 |
| nickjohnson | I hadn't seen the 9854 breakouts | 11:18 |
| nmz787_i | nickjohnson: so, they're just less stable? (than say what you aim to build) or they simply lack the detection aspect (and schematics and layout)? | 11:18 |
| nickjohnson | The AD9851 is quite antique but reasonably powerful | 11:19 |
| nickjohnson | Well, they just do signal generation, and they don't have active frontends, so the power output is low, and the control over amplitude and offset is very limited | 11:19 |
| nickjohnson | And no input stage either, yeah | 11:19 |
| nickjohnson | I'm trying to build a more versatile instrument than just a breakout | 11:19 |
| nickjohnson | I considered going with the AD9851, but it's only cheaper than the AD9838 if you go for dodgy second sourced PCBs from China :P | 11:20 |
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| nmz787_i | nickjohnson: any idea of a sales pricepoint? | 11:21 |
| nickjohnson | Looks like it's going to be $60USD retail | 11:21 |
| nmz787_i | could that still do bode plots for the whole sig gen freq output range? | 11:22 |
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| nickjohnson | hm | 11:23 |
| nickjohnson | No, you'd need an ADC and/or some analog frontend stuff as well | 11:23 |
| nickjohnson | (Eg, either a fast ADC, or peak and phase detectors and a slow ADC) | 11:24 |
| nickjohnson | Assuming we're talking about the same breakouts | 11:24 |
| nickjohnson | Depends on what you're trying to measure, too, you might need more current than the breakout can supply. | 11:24 |
| nickjohnson | I'm happy to help if you're considering putting together your own board for higher speed frequency plots, though :) | 11:29 |
| nickjohnson | You could reuse a good chunk of what I've designed | 11:29 |
| kragen | nmz787_i: by coincidence I spent much of the morning trying to teach painters to make arcs using discrete approximations of partial differential equations | 11:35 |
| kragen | well, artists. one is a painter | 11:35 |
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| nmz787_i | nickjohnson: cool, will talk more later about this | 11:36 |
| nmz787_i | kragen: oh! | 11:37 |
| nickjohnson | Righto :) | 11:37 |
| nmz787_i | kragen: are you familiar with the DNA double helix? | 11:37 |
| nmz787_i | while I wouldn't need a spiral as the solution, the double helix represents two lines/arcs that don't cros | 11:38 |
| nmz787_i | cross | 11:38 |
| chris_99 | nmz787_i, found some seller in china that makes mixer microfluidic chips for £21 | 11:38 |
| nmz787_i | chris_99: for your problem you probably don't have to worry about quality of them too much, so if they work for your purpose and the price point is OK... seems fine | 11:38 |
| kragen | nmz787_i: only as much as any random person on the street | 11:38 |
| nmz787_i | quality in the sense that the channels may be rough or something | 11:39 |
| chris_99 | yeah i agree, nmz787_i :) | 11:39 |
| chris_99 | mmm | 11:39 |
| kragen | but helices aren't arcs? | 11:39 |
| nmz787_i | I thought they were, but in 3d | 11:39 |
| nmz787_i | not the same pythagorean equation that get's integrated? | 11:40 |
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| kragen | you can certainly represent helices in a variety of ways that have circles as a special case | 11:40 |
| nmz787_i | (except that the points to calculate distance between would be P(x,y,z) not P(x,y) | 11:40 |
| kragen | like the vector parametric formula [(a sin t) (a cos t) (bt)] | 11:41 |
| nmz787_i | kragen: I don't actually want helices... if anything it would probably be a sum of sin waves (since that is how you could get 90 turns) | 11:41 |
| kragen | which reduces to a circle if b = 0 | 11:41 |
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| nmz787_i | kragen: http://imgur.com/rBXGE3C | 11:44 |
| nmz787_i | that would be the simplest example I can think of | 11:44 |
| nmz787_i | you start with the boundary conditions (2 points on one side which need to connect to 2 points on the other side) | 11:45 |
| nmz787_i | and find the equations which satisfy equation1 never equals equation2 | 11:45 |
| nmz787_i | (meaning they never intersect) | 11:45 |
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| kragen | nmz787_i: I am unfortunately completely mystified by this conversation and I suspect it may be a terminology problem | 11:56 |
| kragen | the lines in that picture don't look like arcs, and they don't look differentiable, which means that making them out of partial differential equations is going to be tough | 11:56 |
| kragen | they look like they are skew, which keeps them from intersecting | 11:56 |
| kragen | but one of them has a bump in it, which maybe is intended to avoid the other, except that it wouldn't have intersected the other anyway because they're skew | 11:57 |
| kragen | and I have no idea what any of this has to do with double helices or sums of sine waves | 11:57 |
| nmz787_i | skew is accidental thanks to MS Paint | 11:57 |
| nmz787_i | wouldn't the derivative of the black like just be 0? | 11:58 |
| kragen | furthermore I don't know what a turn is. are we talking about rotations of an approximate helix here? Like turns of winding on a transformer? | 11:58 |
| kragen | and what do sums of sine waves have to do with anything? | 11:58 |
| nmz787_i | and that red line could be a sum of sin functions | 11:58 |
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| nmz787_i | (i.e. any square wave) | 11:59 |
| nmz787_i | and yes this is only in 2d | 11:59 |
| nmz787_i | I am not good enough with 3d MS Paint skillz | 11:59 |
| kragen | whether the derivative of the function represented by the black line would be 0 or not depends on the relationship between the function and the line. are we talking parametric, PDE, or explicit? | 12:00 |
| kragen | I can't think of any interpretation where the answer is "yes it would be 0" but maybe there is one | 12:01 |
| nmz787_i | umm | 12:01 |
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| nmz787_i | kragen: have you ever done plumbing or made a circuit board ? | 12:02 |
| kragen | I guess if your coordinate system has the X-axis parallel to the black line, which you drew as diagonal, and you're representing it with a function whose value is a 2-vector that gives you the Y and Z coordinates? | 12:02 |
| kragen | sure | 12:03 |
| nmz787_i | so essentially the starting two points would be the hot and cold sink faucets, and the other end of the lines I have drawn would be their source connections, say the pipes that come up through the floor in the kitchen | 12:04 |
| nmz787_i | and for some reason the guy who built the house had the hot and cold pipes oriented the wrong way | 12:04 |
| kragen | you want to do routing? But with 90 turns? | 12:04 |
| nmz787_i | such that your tubing had to cross over to connect up right | 12:04 |
| nmz787_i | yeah, so this would be instead of free 3d space, layers routable area | 12:05 |
| nmz787_i | layers of routable area | 12:05 |
| nmz787_i | so better analogy would be plumbing in the floor below a bathroom/kitchen | 12:05 |
| nmz787_i | where all of a sudden you need some pipes to go under or over something (a pipe, a beam that you can't drill through, etc) | 12:06 |
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| nmz787_i | so my idea is define the start and end points for each equation (line), then set the solution constraint such that the individual equation points (any of their x,y,z points) can never equal the points of another equation | 12:07 |
| nmz787_i | 90 degrees just because that is what the hardware store commonly sells (and the only drill angle a circuit board can have) | 12:08 |
| FAMAS | what does the NRA at the channel topic stand for? | 12:10 |
| nmz787_i | National Rifle Association | 12:13 |
| nmz787_i | We love our Gene Guns too much | 12:13 |
| nmz787_i | kragen: idk if this is more clear http://imgur.com/WZ2ZbaQ | 12:13 |
| Qfwfq | They stand for sitting. | 12:14 |
| FAMAS | Qfwfq: ??? | 12:16 |
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| nmz787_i | hmm http://blog.wolframalpha.com/2012/04/04/find-arc-length-calculations-for-calculus-with-wolframalpha/ | 12:23 |
| nmz787_i | "What about curves in three or more dimensions? One common exercise in a standard calculus course is to find the arc length of a helix. This could be the length of wire needed to form a spring or the amount of tape needed to wrap a cylinder without leaving any gaps. A helix can be expressed as a parametric curve in which the x and y coordinates define a circle, while the z coordinate increases linearly." | 12:23 |
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| kanzure | "We are pleased to announce that the exclusive WuXi EXPLORER Compound Library has shipped to the first BTNB "early access" clients in the US and is now available for wider distribution. Through this unique collaborative between Wuxi and BTNB, researchers can now access a large, novel and diverse library of screening-ready compounds at a cost-effective price. For pricing information please email us at info@btandb.com with the subject line ... | 12:52 |
| kanzure | ... CHEMICAL COMPOUNDS" | 12:52 |
| kanzure | "BTNB sponsor Assay Depot now offers a free research concierge service to BTNB tenants." | 12:52 |
| kanzure | (biotechnbeyond == BTNB apparently) | 12:53 |
| kanzure | http://news.sciencemag.org/funding/2014/11/gates-foundation-require-immediate-free-access-journal-articles | 13:43 |
| kanzure | "The Gates Foundation spends about $900 million a year on its global health programs, mostly on research. That results in roughly 1400 research papers a year, 30% of which now appear in open-access journals, according to foundation communications officer Amy Enright." | 13:43 |
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| nmz787_i | paperbot: http://scitation.aip.org/docserver/fulltext/aip/journal/jap/20/7/1.1698511.pdf?expires=1416866810&id=id&accname=2109439&checksum=985028A38427D3217CEF4D1BAA4F3FF2 | 13:51 |
| nmz787_i | paperbot: http://scitation.aip.org/content/aip/journal/jap/20/7/10.1063/1.1698511 | 13:52 |
| paperbot | http://libgen.org/scimag/get.php?doi=10.1063%2F1.1698511 | 13:52 |
| nmz787_i | paperbot: http://scitation.aip.org/content/aip/journal/jap/15/9/10.1063/1.1707491 | 13:53 |
| paperbot | http://libgen.org/scimag/get.php?doi=10.1063%2F1.1707491 | 13:53 |
| nmz787_i | .title | 13:54 |
| kanzure | wont work | 13:54 |
| yoleaux | nmz787_i: Sorry, that doesn't appear to be an HTML page. | 13:54 |
| nmz787_i | http://deepblue.lib.umich.edu/bitstream/handle/2027.42/70754/JAPIAU-15-10-712-1.pdf?sequence=2 | 13:54 |
| nmz787_i | paperbot: http://deepblue.lib.umich.edu/bitstream/handle/2027.42/70754/JAPIAU-15-10-712-1.pdf?sequence=2 | 13:54 |
| kanzure | ... | 13:55 |
| nmz787_i | shouldn't it copy papers that are available? | 13:55 |
| kanzure | yep | 13:55 |
| kanzure | but that's been broken for a while now | 13:55 |
| kanzure | don't know why | 13:55 |
| kanzure | and nobody fixes things | 13:55 |
| nmz787_i | I think I might as well start my own bot that just tries to download a given URL if 'pdf' in url.lower() | 13:56 |
| nmz787_i | something I can debug without having to commit to a version control system | 13:57 |
| kanzure | paperbot2 can be debugged without committing to a version control system | 13:57 |
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| kanzure | paperbot1 too | 13:57 |
| kanzure | "if 'pdf' in url.lower()" will miss almost every possible case | 13:57 |
| kanzure | you should just use paperbot2 | 13:57 |
| nmz787_i | it won't fail if the pdf is available without creds | 13:58 |
| kanzure | i didn't say fail i said miss | 14:00 |
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| nmz787_i | miss? how would it miss it? if I say getPdf www.url.com/somefilename.pdf how will it miss this? or how would it miss this ? http://deepblue.lib.umich.edu/bitstream/handle/2027.42/70754/JAPIAU-15-10-712-1.pdf?sequence=2 | 14:15 |
| kanzure | "will miss almost every possible case" | 14:16 |
| kanzure | "almost every" does not mean "will miss every case" | 14:16 |
| nmz787_i | well give an example of one that fails... all my cases thus far wouldn't, so that is not 'almost every'... it would be 'almost none' | 14:16 |
| kanzure | any url that does not have the word pdf in it that returns a pdf | 14:18 |
| nmz787_i | ok so then MIMETYPE | 14:18 |
| kanzure | grep "paperbot: http" hplusroadmap.log | 14:18 |
| nmz787_i | logbot fail | 14:20 |
| kanzure | hm? | 14:21 |
| kragen | oh, 90-degree turns | 14:23 |
| kragen | not 90 turns of a helix | 14:23 |
| nmz787_i | yes | 14:24 |
| nmz787_i | i am still fleshing this idea out | 14:24 |
| kragen | wrt "arc length": you can calculate the arc length along an arbitrary curve, but that doesn't mean that the curve is an arc in the usual sense of "arc", which is an arc of a circle. confusing terminology. | 14:25 |
| nmz787_i | ah | 14:25 |
| nmz787_i | i meant curvy line | 14:26 |
| kragen | that clears up much of my confusion :) | 14:26 |
| nmz787_i | I'm gonna ask my calc prof tonight | 14:26 |
| kragen | calculating arc length in the usual way along parametric curves could run into problems if the velocity isn't differentiable | 14:27 |
| kragen | but if it's piecewise differentiable you can add up the arc lengths of the pieces | 14:28 |
| nmz787_i | hm, I was thinking piecewise might be harder to express as a PDE | 14:28 |
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| kragen | yes | 14:28 |
| kragen | it certainly is | 14:28 |
| nmz787_i | since my idea is to set my start and end locations, then throw that into a PDE solver | 14:29 |
| nmz787_i | basically | 14:29 |
| nmz787_i | idk if that is correct terminology or feasible | 14:29 |
| nmz787_i | but it seems like it could be | 14:29 |
| kragen | your velocity could be differentiable | 14:30 |
| kragen | I mean you could slow down as you get to a 90-degree bend, reaching zero velocity at that point, and then accelerate from there | 14:30 |
| nmz787_i | they wouldn't have to be perfect 90 degree bends, but that would be how they would be seen from a manufacturing standpoint | 14:31 |
| kragen | I don't remember if that results in problems with the usual arc-length-calculation approach for PDEs | 14:31 |
| kragen | one thing about 90-degree bends is that they mean you're probably going to have large flat plateaus in your solution space | 14:32 |
| kragen | where the distance is the same regardless of where you make the bend | 14:32 |
| kragen | that kind of thing can cause difficulty for things that are looking for an actual minimum-cost solution sometimes | 14:33 |
| nmz787_i | hmm, I don't really care about minimizing distance, just that lines don't intersect | 14:42 |
| kragen | presumably you want them to stay some minimum distance away from each other | 14:44 |
| TMA | nmz787_i: are the starting points coplanar or arbitrarily positioned? | 14:48 |
| nmz787_i | TMA: a simple example would have them coplanar to begin, but in more complex foms they could be elsewhere | 14:50 |
| TMA | if they are coplanar, for each pair you can just make a |____| connecting path selecting a unique depth of the vertical parts | 14:50 |
| nmz787_i | this isn't a horrible 3D example http://www.pcb-investigator.com/sites/default/files/blog/images/bd_5.jpg | 14:52 |
| nmz787_i | it's pretty noisy though | 14:52 |
| TMA | oh, it is a PCB routing problem | 14:53 |
| TMA | if it weren't: no need for coplanarity, though: if they are not coplanar find some plane such that parallel projection of them to that plane projects no two on the same point on the plane. then use the previous method. | 14:55 |
| nmz787_i | TMA: not neccesarily PCB routing, could be routing pipes in your house/skyscraper... or fluidic lines on a microfluidic lab-on-a-chip | 14:57 |
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| TMA | nmz787_i: that seems more like a graph problem [look for maximum planar subgraph and start from there] papers such as http://citeseerx.ist.psu.edu/viewdoc/summary?doi=10.1.1.47.207 | 15:01 |
| nmz787_i | TMA: but wouldn't the solution be straight lines? which is not manufacturable for something like a PCB | 15:03 |
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| nmz787_i | (in the sense of changing Z) | 15:03 |
| nmz787_i | (Which needs to happen at 90 degree angles to the planes) | 15:04 |
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| nmz787_i | heh, typo in that paper you just sent, right in the abstract | 15:07 |
| TMA | nmz787_i: you will get the subgraph that is planar -- you can route that subgraph any way you like. no need to use straight lines; the edges that would be left behind can be moved to the second layer (with the same process); the vertical connectors would be only inbetween the layers | 15:07 |
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| TMA | nmz787_i: where? | 15:09 |
| nmz787_i | the webpage says maxumum | 15:10 |
| nmz787_i | but the abstract in the PDF has it maximum... so OCR error maybe? | 15:10 |
| heath | "hi Heath? we looked at your resume, we have an vp of engineering position for you." ~"we're a startup doing something others have done, we require you to be in ohio, but we'll give you 3 - 5% equity" | 15:10 |
| heath | s/an/a | 15:11 |
| heath | that was the shortest call all day | 15:11 |
| TMA | nmz787_i: blimey, I've missed that. It's midnight here in Europe, I should be sleeping already. good night; maybe the graph approach is not the best one. maybe you'd need to come with some novel combination of approaches. I think that it might help to look at it from the angle of graph theory though. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crossing_number_%28graph_theory%29 or some such | 15:17 |
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| heath | http://seclists.org/fulldisclosure/2014/Nov/74 | 15:28 |
| heath | "At this point, my best advice would be for users to unset LESSOPEN and | 15:28 |
| heath | LESSCLOSE if set by their distros. | 15:28 |
| heath | " | 15:28 |
| heath | .title http://ntrs.nasa.gov/archive/nasa/casi.ntrs.nasa.gov/20050175884.pdf | 15:30 |
| yoleaux | heath: Sorry, that doesn't appear to be an HTML page. | 15:30 |
| heath | "Foundations of Tensor Analysis for Students of | 15:30 |
| heath | Physics and Engineering With an Introduction | 15:30 |
| heath | to the Theory of Relativity" | 15:30 |
| fenn | sounds more like a textbook than a technical report | 15:35 |
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| nmz787_i | is there a room for bitching about bad software/API? or just bitching in general? | 16:50 |
| fenn | ##masochism | 16:52 |
| fenn | (who would want to listen to constant bitching) | 16:53 |
| nmz787_i | that seems like it would be relatively undirected | 17:07 |
| nmz787_i | i'm thinking something more like ##bitchaboutsoftware | 17:08 |
| nmz787_i | if that existed | 17:08 |
| nmz787_i | and it seems ##masochism is empty | 17:08 |
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| fenn | i lied | 17:12 |
| fenn | try ##gullible instead | 17:12 |
| fenn | you could start a blog and accept submissions; i bet it'd be popular. misery loves company | 17:13 |
| kanzure | tumblr? | 17:13 |
| kanzure | 17:14 | |
| fenn | twitter isn't a blog | 17:17 |
| fenn | also twitter has enough bitching already; there's be too much competition | 17:17 |
| nmz787_i | i wouldn't want other people's crap on my blog | 17:18 |
| fenn | i'm intolerant of your intolerance | 17:19 |
| fenn | i think my brain is overheating from all this cryptography theory being rammed into it | 17:20 |
| fenn | sorry for any weird offense | 17:21 |
| nmz787_i | i just am sad that there don't seem to be good examples or docs for shapely | 17:22 |
| nmz787_i | it has been annoying me all day :/ | 17:22 |
| nmz787_i | their docs seem to make lots of assumptions that users want it for GIS | 17:23 |
| fenn | ALERT a user is using software for an unintended purpose! | 17:24 |
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| nmz787_i | no, it only uses GIS examples | 17:26 |
| nmz787_i | 'Manipulation and analysis of geometric objects in the Cartesian plane.' | 17:26 |
| nmz787_i | 'Shapely is a BSD-licensed Python package for manipulation and analysis of planar geometric objects. It is based on the widely deployed GEOS (the engine of PostGIS) and JTS (from which GEOS is ported) libraries. Shapely is not concerned with data formats or coordinate systems, but can be readily integrated with packages that are." | 17:26 |
| fenn | why aren't you just using an already-existing pcb routing algorithm? | 17:27 |
| nmz787_i | this isn't for pcb routing | 17:28 |
| nmz787_i | it's for packing shapes onto a drawing | 17:28 |
| fenn | nesting? | 17:31 |
| nmz787_i | not sure what you are referring to | 17:32 |
| * nmz787_i heads to calculus class | 17:32 | |
| fenn | nesting is for like, cutting cookies out of a sheet of cookie dough | 17:33 |
| fenn | enjoy | 17:33 |
| nmz787_i | ah, no, adding stuff to a blank drawing canvas | 17:33 |
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| jrayhawk | #yospos or #shsc, maybe | 17:37 |
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| jrayhawk | She said, "You know what they say the modern version of Pascal's Wager is? Sucking up to as many Transhumanists as possible, just in case one of them turns into God." | 17:59 |
| jrayhawk | have i mentioned lately that you're all lovely people | 17:59 |
| fenn | i will torture your simulation for eternity | 18:00 |
| jrayhawk | a most judicious choice, sire | 18:01 |
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| fenn | i'm on the turmeric aspirin chocolate ham stack, bro | 18:20 |
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| heath | nmz787: ##defocus | 18:29 |
| jrayhawk | i like that stack description | 18:32 |
| jrayhawk | i should steal that | 18:33 |
| jrayhawk | well, other than the aspirin | 18:33 |
| fenn | i need an "O" so i can say "TACHO" | 18:33 |
| jrayhawk | olive? | 18:33 |
| fenn | yuck | 18:33 |
| fenn | ...oseltamvir? | 18:33 |
| jrayhawk | dangerously close to THAC0 | 18:34 |
| jrayhawk | oleate? | 18:34 |
| fenn | hmm i hadn't considered 0 | 18:34 |
| jrayhawk | omega-3? | 18:36 |
| fenn | duh | 18:36 |
| fenn | so much for my stack | 18:36 |
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| maaku | fenn: sucks to my simulation! | 20:12 |
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| kanzure | hmm | 20:38 |
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| bbrittain | anyone else watching ferguson live streams? | 21:29 |
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| kanzure | no | 21:30 |
| kanzure | wrong channel yo | 21:30 |
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| kanzure | paperbot should be renamed to papertumor | 21:51 |
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| bbrittain | pshaw, you people should care | 22:21 |
| bbrittain | but yes, wrong channel | 22:21 |
| FAMAS | bbrittain: no need | 22:22 |
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| Lemminkainen | bbrittain what are people supposed to care about now? | 22:45 |
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| --- Log closed Tue Nov 25 00:00:01 2014 | ||
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