| --- Day changed Sat Nov 29 2014 | ||
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| fenn | "does anyone have anything constructive to say?" what a dick | 00:58 |
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| archels | kanzure: too bad I missed russell0 | 02:16 |
| archels | that was about 4 AM my time | 02:17 |
| archels | their crowdfunding campaign is very optimistic... both in terms of funding goal and perks | 02:27 |
| archels | "We will put your name on Brain Backups waiting list, in order of receipt. This means that once we have perfected the brain backup, you could be downloading your brain onto your computer!" | 02:27 |
| archels | ($75) | 02:27 |
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| ebowden | paperbot: http://jad.sagepub.com/content/17/5/410.short | 02:35 |
| paperbot | http://libgen.org/scimag/get.php?doi=10.1177%2F1087054712446173 | 02:35 |
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| ebowden | Damn. | 03:04 |
| ebowden | Link doesn't work. | 03:04 |
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| kanzure | archels: in the future i could call you if you want, or some other obnoxious way of waking you up | 06:27 |
| kanzure | haha: | 06:28 |
| kanzure | 21:36 <russell0> This fenn guy has a crappy attitude | 06:28 |
| kanzure | 21:50 <russell0> Do you agree? | 06:28 |
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| archels | hehe, could go for that. | 07:19 |
| archels | or just get the character back in here at a decent hour of the day | 07:19 |
| archels | speaking of neurons https://imgur.com/a/09Hf3/noscript | 07:25 |
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| kanzure | "I made this functioning neuron that uses a stacks of blocks as analogs to sodium and potassium ions to simulate an action potential in minecraft. I only included sodium and potassium in this model." | 07:34 |
| kanzure | "Gold pressure plate can be thought of as a binding site for neurotransmitters. As the number of sprites released from dropper grows, the signal from plate increases. The quantity of items in chest determines the threshold for stimulation." | 07:34 |
| kanzure | "Once the "neurotransmitters have bound," the torch will be extinguished, and the hoppers they power will be able to draw "ions" from the chest." | 07:34 |
| kanzure | "The box on the left represents the extracellular concentration of sodium (initially high). Stacks will be drawn out and "diffuse" into the intracellular chest." | 07:34 |
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| archels | "And here is a brain in situ. And I mean, just look at it again, occupies the same universe as tooth enamel, or earwax or nasal hair, and yet it does so much more." | 07:38 |
| archels | -- Susan Greenfield | 07:38 |
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| bbrittain | paperbot: http://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1080/09296171003643098#.VHi-nJPF8fQ | 08:47 |
| paperbot | http://libgen.org/scimag/get.php?doi=10.1080%2F09296171003643098 | 08:47 |
| bbrittain | paperbot: http://www.tandfonline.com/doi/pdf/10.1080/09296171003643098 | 08:47 |
| paperbot | http://libgen.org/scimag/get.php?doi=10.1080%2F09296171003643098 | 08:47 |
| bbrittain | nooo | 08:47 |
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| bbrittain | that russel guy | 09:03 |
| bbrittain | wow | 09:03 |
| bbrittain | paperbot: http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0010945213001366 | 09:04 |
| kanzure | .title | 09:06 |
| yoleaux | Elsevier | 09:06 |
| kanzure | pfft | 09:06 |
| chris_99 | will france really let anyone who has a french IP use Elsevier for free soon? | 09:06 |
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| bbrittain | kanzure: aro no Elsevier links working? :/ | 09:16 |
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| kanzure | hard to know | 10:00 |
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| yottabit | is gnusha back up or is paperbot running someone's own server? | 10:28 |
| yottabit | +on | 10:28 |
| yottabit | k, it's back up | 10:28 |
| yottabit | hm, will have to create an irssi conf | 10:31 |
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| kanzure | http://underhandedcrypto.com/rules/ "The Underhanded Crypto contest was inspired by the famous Underhanded C Contest, which is a contest for producing C programs that look correct, yet are flawed in some subtle way that makes them behave inappropriately. This is a great model for demonstrating how hard code review is, and how easy it is to slip in a backdoor even when smart people are paying attention. We’d like to do the same for ... | 11:08 |
| kanzure | ... cryptography. We want to see if you can design a cryptosystem that looks secure to experts, yet is backdoored or vulnerable in a subtle barely-noticable way. Can you design an encrypted chat protocol that looks secure to everyone who reviews it, but in reality lets anyone who knows some fixed key decrypt the messages? We’re also interested in clever ways to weaken existing crypto programs. Can you make a change to the OpenSSL ... | 11:08 |
| kanzure | ... library that looks like you’re improving the random number generator, but actually breaks it and makes it produce predictable output?" | 11:08 |
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| heath | yay, thanks for getting gnusha back up and requiring me to set a sane config :) | 11:12 |
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| nmz787 | bbrittain: http://diyhpl.us/~nmz787/pdf/Cutting_the_Gordian_Knot_The_Moving-Average_TypeToken_Ratio_MATTR.pdf | 11:48 |
| nmz787 | this says it is very similar (or the same in some cases) to a hough transform | 11:49 |
| nmz787 | .wik radon transform | 11:49 |
| yoleaux | "In mathematics, the Radon transform in two dimensions, named after the Austrian mathematician Johann Radon, is the integral transform consisting of the integral of a function over straight lines. The transform was introduced in 1917 by Radon, who also provided a formula for the inverse transform." — http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radon_transform | 11:49 |
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| nmz787 | hahah, .wik funk transform | 11:56 |
| nmz787 | 'we need more funk!!!' | 11:56 |
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| bbrittain | nmz787: you are awesome, thanks | 12:41 |
| bbrittain | I have eaten so much food in the last couple of days, I'm going to explode | 12:43 |
| bbrittain | or, I'm just gonna go get another piece of pumpkin pie | 12:43 |
| kanzure | good plan | 12:48 |
| nmz787 | I gutted a few wild ducks that someone shot and dropped off at my friend's... they tasted different for sure... went home and looked up the history of chicken later that night | 12:48 |
| bbrittain | imo, any free food I can eat at my parents is a good idea | 12:48 |
| bbrittain | now I'm reading about chickens | 12:49 |
| kanzure | what's the full-body dose of xrays in a whole-body scan? | 12:57 |
| bbrittain | as in what TSA uses? | 12:58 |
| kanzure | no | 12:58 |
| kanzure | CT | 12:58 |
| bbrittain | kanzure: http://www.columbia.edu/~djb3/papers/radiol3.pdf | 13:00 |
| bbrittain | 14-21 mGy | 13:00 |
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| kanzure | paperbot: http://pubs.rsna.org/doi/full/10.1148/radiol.2511081300 | 13:11 |
| kanzure | .title | 13:11 |
| yoleaux | RSNA Publications Online | 13:11 |
| paperbot | http://libgen.org/scimag/get.php?doi=10.1148%2Fradiol.2511081300 | 13:11 |
| kanzure | "well it isnt 1/10,000, it was 1 DEATH in 1200 scans." | 13:11 |
| kanzure | people die all the time | 13:11 |
| kanzure | http://venturebeat.com/2014/11/20/cambrian-genomics-ceo-says-his-company-just-raised-10m-to-print-more-dna/ | 13:15 |
| kanzure | "The funding round was described in a Securities and Exchange Commission filing Thursday. The round has a total of 127 participants, and Cambrian isn’t talking about who led the round or how much the participants contributed." | 13:16 |
| bbrittain | cambrian genomics, I wanna beleive... but... | 13:16 |
| kanzure | "Heinz spoke yesterday at the DEMO conference about one of the companies in Cambrian’s new accelerator program. The company, called Personal Probiotics, uses Cambrian’s “Creature Creator” to print a special virus that kills off microbes in the vagina that cause yeast infections and other sexually transmitted diseases (STDs)." | 13:16 |
| bbrittain | exactly. | 13:16 |
| kanzure | "The product, called “Sweet Peach,” also reduces vaginal odor, which is what most in the media have seized upon, and not in a way that was very complimentary, or fair, to Cambrian. The pleasant “peach” odor is created as an indicator that it is working within the woman’s body, Heinz said." | 13:16 |
| kanzure | bbrittain: i don't know what you're skeptical about here | 13:17 |
| bbrittain | uhhh | 13:17 |
| bbrittain | valid point | 13:17 |
| bbrittain | bitcoin? not skeptical. | 13:17 |
| bbrittain | open hardware? yay \o/ | 13:17 |
| kanzure | have you met anselm? http://anselmlevskaya.com/ | 13:17 |
| bbrittain | nah, not personally | 13:18 |
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| nmz787 | hrmm, I can't find the log of the talk about becoming a library to get paper access (or was that a dream?) | 13:22 |
| kanzure | haha "its based on epidemiological data mostly from atomic bomb exposures it appears from that paper" | 13:24 |
| kanzure | "yes i do all of my xray imaging only in the presence of atomic bomb blasts" | 13:24 |
| bbrittain | awk | 13:24 |
| kanzure | how much atmospheric fallout would be required to take usable images of bones? | 13:24 |
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| nmz787 | huh https://github.com/nmz787/ProteinShop/issues/1 | 13:36 |
| nmz787 | dang I can't remember much about this repo, I remember doing some kind of find-replace on some outdated library and getting it to compile and open... but I can't remember if it was working/stable (or if that is even what got committed to that repo) | 13:37 |
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| nmz787 | so mit or gpl2 for an rs232 sniffer circuit? | 13:53 |
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| kanzure | paperbot: http://www.nature.com/nchem/journal/v6/n11/full/nchem.2083.html | 13:56 |
| kanzure | .title | 13:56 |
| yoleaux | DNA brick crystals with prescribed depths : Nature Chemistry : Nature Publishing Group | 13:56 |
| paperbot | http://libgen.org/scimag/get.php?doi=10.1038%2Fnchem.2083 | 13:56 |
| kanzure | "ere, we describe a general framework for constructing two-dimensional crystals with prescribed depths and sophisticated three-dimensional features. The crystals are self-assembled from single-stranded DNA components called DNA bricks. We demonstrate the experimental construction of DNA brick crystals that can grow to micrometre size in their lateral dimensions with precisely controlled depths up to 80 nm. They can be designed to pack ... | 13:56 |
| kanzure | ... DNA helices at angles parallel or perpendicular to the plane of the crystal and to display user-specified sophisticated three-dimensional nanoscale features, such as continuous or discontinuous cavities and channels." | 13:56 |
| kanzure | *Here, | 13:56 |
| kanzure | supplementary info http://www.nature.com/nchem/journal/v6/n11/extref/nchem.2083-s1.pdf | 13:57 |
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| kanzure | .to eudoxia: someone linked to your page here http://nextbigfuture.com/2014/11/dna-nanotechnology-breaking-through.html | 14:08 |
| yoleaux | kanzure: What kind of a name is "eudoxia:"?! | 14:08 |
| kanzure | .to eudoxia someone linked to your page here http://nextbigfuture.com/2014/11/dna-nanotechnology-breaking-through.html | 14:08 |
| yoleaux | kanzure: I'll pass your message to eudoxia. | 14:08 |
| kanzure | :( | 14:08 |
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| kanzure | paperbot: http://www.nature.com/srep/2014/141020/srep06612/full/srep06612.html?WT.ec_id=SREP-639-20141021 | 14:11 |
| kanzure | .title | 14:11 |
| paperbot | http://libgen.org/scimag/get.php?doi=10.1038%2Fsrep06612 | 14:11 |
| yoleaux | Direct Laser Writing of Nanodiamond Films from Graphite under Ambient Conditions : Scientific Reports : Nature Publishing Group | 14:11 |
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| kanzure | "The technique works by using a multilayered film that includes a layer of graphite topped with a glass cover sheet. Exposing this layered structure to an ultrafast-pulsing laser instantly converts the graphite to an ionized plasma and creates a downward pressure. Then the graphite plasma quickly solidifies into diamond. The glass sheet confines the plasma to keep it from escaping, allowing it to form a nanodiamond coating. | 14:11 |
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| nmz787 | hmm https://wiki.rit.edu/display/smfl/Tool+Set | 14:12 |
| nmz787 | https://wiki.rit.edu/display/smfl/Services+Offered | 14:12 |
| nmz787 | kanzure: what wavelength? | 14:13 |
| nmz787 | kanzure: I've seen papers that convert graphite to graphene I think | 14:13 |
| kanzure | not sure what wavelength | 14:14 |
| kanzure | "t is noteworthy that due to the local high dense confined plasma created by transparent confinement layer, nanodiamond has been formed at laser intensity as low as 3.7 GW/cm2, which corresponds to pressure of 4.4 GPa, much lower than the pressure needed to transform graphite to diamond traditionally. | 14:14 |
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| nmz787 | "The conversion efficiency depends on the laser intensity, repetition rate and wavelength. With higher laser intensity, the ionized carbon atoms accumulate higher kinetic energy and thus can be converted into higher percentage of nanodiamond. With shorter wavelength, e.g. deep UV laser, higher energy the photons will carry to interact with graphite, resulting in higher kinetic energy of carbon atoms. In terms of processing speed, if ... | 14:15 |
| nmz787 | ... equipped with high power diode pump solid state (DPSS) laser with frequency of 50–100 kHz and a beam scanner, CPLD can generate nanodiamond thin films under ambient conditions with commercial scale." | 14:15 |
| kanzure | patterned thin films would seem to be far more important if that's what they have there | 14:17 |
| kanzure | but they don't mention patterning really | 14:17 |
| nmz787 | "The laser intensity used in the present experiment was comparatively lower (>3.7GW/cm^2) than the Nagel criterion threshold which is 50 GW/cm^2 for laser having wavelength of 1064 nm. Yet, we have clear evidence of nanodiamond formation."" | 14:17 |
| nmz787 | fig 1 C) is the film | 14:18 |
| nmz787 | looks cracked | 14:18 |
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| nmz787 | fig 2 SEM | 14:18 |
| nmz787 | can't tell if it is confluent, but seems not | 14:18 |
| nmz787 | err, connected | 14:19 |
| nmz787 | all the little rocks | 14:19 |
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| nmz787 | would probably make great sandpaper/grinding-slurry | 14:19 |
| nmz787 | "To characterize the HRTEM images with Titan 80–300 KV Environmental Electron Microscope, the sample was prepared by dispersing the produced nanodiamonds into toluene, then dip coating onto formvar TEM grid, finally soft baking to drive out the solvent. The sheet resistances were measured on a Jandel RM3-AR four point probing system" | 14:21 |
| nmz787 | so I wonder what a slice of a stanard diamond looks like compared to Fig 6 b) | 14:22 |
| nmz787 | standard* | 14:22 |
| nmz787 | or CVD diamong | 14:22 |
| nmz787 | diamond | 14:22 |
| nmz787 | paperbot: http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/092596359290061R | 14:22 |
| nmz787 | .title | 14:22 |
| yoleaux | TEM observations of diamond films prepared by microwave plasma CVD | 14:22 |
| kanzure | paperbot: http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0042682212004618 | 14:23 |
| kanzure | .title | 14:23 |
| yoleaux | A fully decompressed synthetic bacteriophage øX174 genome assembled and archived in yeast | 14:23 |
| kanzure | "The 5386 nucleotide bacteriophage øX174 genome has a complicated architecture that encodes 11 gene products via overlapping protein coding sequences spanning multiple reading frames. We designed a 6302 nucleotide synthetic surrogate, øX174.1, that fully separates all primary phage protein coding sequences along with cognate translation control elements." | 14:23 |
| paperbot | http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/paperbot/%0A%20A%20fully%20decompressed%20synthetic%20bacteriophage%20X174%20genome%20assembled%20and%20archived%20in%20yeast%0A%20.pdf | 14:23 |
| kanzure | oh come on that pdf is available on their site | 14:23 |
| kanzure | pfft | 14:23 |
| kanzure | paperbot: http://www.degruyter.com/view/j/jagi.2013.4.issue-3/jagi-2013-0008/jagi-2013-0008.xml?format=INT | 14:25 |
| kanzure | .title | 14:25 |
| yoleaux | The Prospects of Whole Brain Emulation within the next Half- Century : Journal of Artificial General Intelligence | 14:25 |
| kanzure | http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/neuro/brain-emulation/The%20prospects%20of%20whole%20brain%20emulation%20within%20the%20next%20half-century.pdf | 14:28 |
| nmz787 | paperbot: http://journals.cambridge.org/action/displayAbstract?fromPage=online&aid=7994958&fileId=S1946427400034485 | 14:31 |
| paperbot | http://libgen.org/scimag/get.php?doi=10.1557%2FPROC-0989-A16-04 | 14:31 |
| nmz787 | hmm, http://diyhpl.us/~nmz787/pdf/Application_of_Diamond-Like_Nanocomposite_Tribological_Coatings_on_LIGA_Microsystem_Parts.pdf | 14:32 |
| nmz787 | that has a comparable image in fig 11 | 14:33 |
| kanzure | "The spatial resolution of MRI for brain scanning purposes has seen roughly exponential improvement for a number of decades. (Figure 2)" | 14:35 |
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| kanzure | "If the trend for MRI continues, the resolution in 2063 will be between 1 and 10 microns. (Kurzweil, 2012) This resolution is an order of magnitude too large to see synapses ..." | 14:36 |
| kanzure | this seems like some really sloppy thinking | 14:36 |
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| kanzure | i regret reading this article at all | 14:40 |
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| bbrittain | if it quotes kurzweil, it might be trash | 14:46 |
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| kanzure | right | 14:48 |
| kanzure | "Initial design of a lightweight Mars aircraft mission" https://lochief.files.wordpress.com/2014/11/paper.pdf (author comments: <https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8673646>) | 14:51 |
| kanzure | er, not sure why it's only 12 minutes of glide time | 14:51 |
| bbrittain | no atmosphere to speak of? | 14:52 |
| chris_99 | you guys seen this - http://www.instructables.com/id/A-Low-Cost-Atomic-Force-Microscope-%E4%BD%8E%E6%88%90%E6%9C%AC%E5%8E%9F%E5%AD%90%E5%8A%9B%E9%A1%AF%E5%BE%AE%E9%8F%A1/?ALLSTEPS | 14:52 |
| superkuh | Not that one in particular but I've see write-ups of the scored piezo design before. | 14:53 |
| chris_99 | aha | 14:54 |
| bbrittain | ugh. the MOLA data isn't from google, it's from wustl/NASA | 14:54 |
| bbrittain | but other than that, interesting paper | 14:55 |
| chris_99 | i wonder if you could use an AFM on an LP ;) | 15:00 |
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| nmz787 | chris_99: LP being what? | 15:03 |
| chris_99 | record | 15:03 |
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| nmz787 | ok, hah, Lunar Probe | 15:03 |
| chris_99 | heh | 15:04 |
| nmz787 | anyone in here have kicad and can try this on their machine for errors? https://github.com/nmz787/rs232-sniffer | 15:14 |
| pasky | chris_99: i don't get that instructable - it's basically just about building a platform, but what about the sensing equipment itself? | 15:14 |
| pasky | aiui it uses components from a dvd rom but has no details how to wire them up and get pictures from the whole thing | 15:15 |
| chris_99 | yeah i'm not sure tbh, i'm just reading http://www.eng.utah.edu/~lzang/images/Lecture_10_AFM.pdf atm, as i don't know much about AFM | 15:15 |
| nmz787 | pasky: most likely you need a microcontroller with a DAC and ADC | 15:17 |
| chris_99 | so i'm somewhat confused, the piezos are somehow used to move the object being scanned? or are they for sensing | 15:17 |
| nmz787 | pasky: this $20 dev board or $100 LabTool device would probably suffice http://www.lpcware.com/content/project/application-example-using-lpc4370-and-labtool-hardware | 15:18 |
| nmz787 | (the labtool has the analog front-ends while the dev board would need those built) | 15:18 |
| nmz787 | I think the idea is you move with the piezos, but also pulse the whole unit to get tapping... or maybe the tapper is a separate control | 15:19 |
| nmz787 | and then you sense the back-EMF or something | 15:19 |
| nmz787 | like motor speed control | 15:19 |
| chris_99 | so hmm, the piezos create tiny vibrations, which shuffle the sample? | 15:19 |
| nmz787 | but instead you'd use the back EMF as the Z in your image | 15:20 |
| nmz787 | Z/intensity | 15:20 |
| kanzure | usually you don't shuffle the sample, you just move it relative to your tip | 15:20 |
| kanzure | the piezos create physical movement ("vibrations") | 15:21 |
| chris_99 | yeah i meant the piezos did the shuffling | 15:21 |
| pasky | hmm what's the cantilever in this setup? | 15:22 |
| pasky | (from the presentation chris_99 linked) | 15:22 |
| nmz787 | even the labtool may need a decent op-amp for buffering, but I honestly don't know the power requirements | 15:22 |
| kanzure | "shuffling: move (people or things) around so as to occupy different positions or to be in a different order." | 15:22 |
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| kanzure | not quite... by applying a current to a piezo you can tilt and move surfaces | 15:22 |
| nmz787 | (for buffering the output, not the input) | 15:23 |
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| nmz787 | (for input conditioning if anything you might need a nice sense resistor) | 15:23 |
| nmz787 | like here https://github.com/securelyfitz/FitzSPA | 15:24 |
| chris_99 | why is that instructable one, 1000$, is it the actual CNCing the platform that's costly | 15:26 |
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| pasky | oh i see the cantilever is the "AFM probe" they briefly mention | 15:29 |
| pasky | and you are supposed to just buy that | 15:29 |
| chris_99 | oh that's somewhat dissapointing | 15:29 |
| chris_99 | unless that's cheap | 15:30 |
| pasky | i wondered because these super-sharp diamond tips seemed like the most difficult part :) | 15:30 |
| nmz787 | oh, I was wrong about the back-EMF (though that idea is probably used somewhere)... but in that case you use the photodiode from the DVD player/writer | 15:30 |
| pasky | i wonder | 15:30 |
| chris_99 | oh pasky just the probe itself, not the laser stuff? | 15:30 |
| nmz787 | the probes are expensive | 15:30 |
| chris_99 | ah, maybe that's why its costly then | 15:30 |
| nmz787 | but beam-deflection AFM probes are some of the cheapest | 15:31 |
| pasky | can't find separate probes on ebay | 15:33 |
| pasky | what ballpark price range are we talking about? | 15:33 |
| chris_99 | i found someone on alibaba that sells, but no price | 15:33 |
| nmz787 | so this one has 4 piezos for XY, and one for Z it seems | 15:33 |
| nmz787 | the cost depends mainly on the size of the probe | 15:34 |
| chris_99 | http://www.spmtips.com/afm-tip-hires-c15-cr-au so i've no idea what i selected, but 400 euro | 15:35 |
| chris_99 | for 5 chips | 15:35 |
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| pasky | chris_99: so as far as i understand the design, you use piezos to move the sample in x/y planes and to oscillate the probe 400khz in z plane; you use the dvd gear to detect tiny differences in probe position (in down position i suppose) fast enough, and build the images from collected samples of probe z positions | 15:36 |
| chris_99 | yeah the dvd laser is to reflect off the cantilever right? | 15:36 |
| pasky | aiui yes | 15:36 |
| nmz787 | not the dvd gear | 15:37 |
| nmz787 | the tip as it vibrates will have an average position | 15:37 |
| nmz787 | a laser reflects from the tip to enter the DVD sensor (OPU) | 15:38 |
| nmz787 | there is a few photodiodes in there | 15:38 |
| pasky | yes but the laser is also from the dvd | 15:38 |
| chris_99 | OPU? | 15:38 |
| nmz787 | and you can sense how far away from the center the beam is deflected | 15:38 |
| nmz787 | optical pickup unit | 15:38 |
| chris_99 | ah | 15:38 |
| nmz787 | so as the tip deflects from the average position being at center | 15:38 |
| nmz787 | you track that difference and call it image intensity at that X/Y coord | 15:39 |
| kanzure | laser reflects not from the tip but from the cantilever | 15:39 |
| kanzure | cantilever has some deflection/bend amount | 15:39 |
| nmz787 | ah, yeah | 15:39 |
| kanzure | also i don't recall if it must be a laser | 15:39 |
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| chris_99 | so the amplitude in the photodector is what you essentially record? | 15:40 |
| nmz787 | either amplitude of the output or some function of the three (I think) photodiodes in the OPU | 15:41 |
| nmz787 | so you can determine which side it was deflected toward | 15:41 |
| nmz787 | or maybe there are 5 photodiodes | 15:41 |
| nmz787 | i can't remember | 15:41 |
| pasky | http://www.spmtips.com/afm-tip-hq-nsc15-cr-au-bs is significantly cheaper, too; 390 eur for 15 chips... but i have no idea which tips are appropriate | 15:42 |
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| pasky | anyway, this is pretty cool! | 15:42 |
| chris_99 | do you reckon you could use this instead of SEM to image a silicon chip? | 15:43 |
| nmz787 | http://www.researchgate.net/publication/258250338_Operation_of_astigmatic-detection_atomic_force_microscopy_in_liquid_environments/links/0046352a7b75383b0d000000 | 15:43 |
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| nmz787 | chris_99: depends on the resolution you're interested in | 15:43 |
| nmz787 | and how much you can spend on a tip, and how long they last | 15:44 |
| chris_99 | ah yeah didn't think of them as disposable | 15:44 |
| chris_99 | *consumable | 15:44 |
| nmz787 | I think investigating DIY SEM needs more interest | 15:46 |
| nmz787 | I wonder if Ben Krasnow documented his design anywhere | 15:46 |
| chris_99 | not that i know of | 15:47 |
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| chris_99 | you should shoot him an email, i asked him a question about his CT machine, and he was very helpful | 15:47 |
| nmz787 | yeah same when I asked about CO2 stuff last year | 15:50 |
| chris_99 | :) | 15:50 |
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| heath | 12:43 < bbrittain> or, I'm just gonna go get another piece of pumpkin pie | 16:48 |
| * heath votes on the extra slice of pumpkin pie | 16:48 | |
| * heath sips on his pumpkin pie smoothie | 16:49 | |
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| bbrittain | I just aite the last piece of pumpkin pie :( | 18:08 |
| bbrittain | also | 18:08 |
| bbrittain | http://vimeo.com/108650530 | 18:08 |
| bbrittain | . title | 18:08 |
| bbrittain | .title | 18:08 |
| yoleaux | Wanderers - a short film by Erik Wernquist on Vimeo | 18:08 |
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| delinquentme | bbrittain, +1 | 18:31 |
| ebowden | paperbot: http://www.cell.com/cell-stem-cell/abstract/S1934-5909%2812%2900173-7 | 18:33 |
| kanzure | .title | 18:33 |
| yoleaux | kanzure: Sorry, that doesn't appear to be an HTML page. | 18:33 |
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| kanzure | "Intelligence without representation" http://people.csail.mit.edu/brooks/papers/representation.pdf | 19:23 |
| kanzure | pasky: maaku__: fenn: there is a thing about agi. | 19:23 |
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| kanzure | "At the same time there was a funding crisis within AI (both in the US and the UK, the two most active places for AI research at the time). AI researchers found themselves forced to become relevant. They moved into more practical domains, such as trip planning and going to a restaurant, etc." | 19:53 |
| kanzure | lost all my tabs :( | 20:33 |
| catern | it's like a hard reset to the brain | 20:34 |
| nmz787 | 'everytime someone loses their tabs, a server dies' | 20:36 |
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| kanzure | http://people.csail.mit.edu/brooks/papers/how-to-build.pdf | 20:47 |
| kanzure | so maybe i'm just not understanding the context of when these were written | 20:47 |
| kanzure | but it seems to me that making a robot bump around is not an ai problem really | 20:47 |
| kanzure | ah here we go http://people.csail.mit.edu/brooks/papers/prospects.pdf | 20:54 |
| kanzure | "When a humanoid robot is placed in a room with many artifacts around it, why should it interact with them at all?" | 20:54 |
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| kanzure | hi genehacker | 21:04 |
| fenn | nihilist robot is nihilist | 21:08 |
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| kanzure | "determine the purpose of the room, execute the purpose, then destroy the room" | 21:09 |
| kanzure | oh how about "kill all humans"? that's a good one | 21:09 |
| fenn | just "destroy! destroy!" | 21:09 |
| kanzure | i imagine it is like being an angry alzheimer's patient | 21:10 |
| kanzure | "why the hell am i here?" | 21:10 |
| kanzure | "have you seen my input?" | 21:10 |
| fenn | or a student | 21:10 |
| kanzure | ah you mean the default should be to complain loudly? | 21:11 |
| fenn | i mean students have no reason for existence | 21:11 |
| kanzure | to learn? | 21:12 |
| fenn | i notice when my cat is stuck indoors for a long time she gets antsy and starts tearing things up; i feel that robots should have similar instincts and this is a huge and unresolved issue in ai and robotics | 21:12 |
| kanzure | presumably a well built ai should quickly switch from one task to another without any interruptions ever | 21:13 |
| fenn | all that asimov bullshit is just so unrealistic | 21:13 |
| kanzure | except for when planning is taking unusually long or something, but even then you could just switch to some other less planning-intense task | 21:13 |
| kanzure | hm? | 21:13 |
| kanzure | which particular asimov bullshit are you thinking about? | 21:13 |
| fenn | the idea that you can build a perfectly rational machine that works as intended and never makes mistakes | 21:14 |
| kanzure | oh, i wasn't trying to reference that idea | 21:14 |
| fenn | most of his books were about how the machines don't work as intended, but for the most part they do | 21:14 |
| fenn | if a machine has perfect patience it will probably just sit waiting for some input that will never happen | 21:15 |
| kanzure | "Prospects for human-level intelligence for humanoid robots" doesn't talk about human-level intelligence at all | 21:15 |
| genehacker | if it talks about motorskills, you're understating it | 21:16 |
| fenn | i like the story about the air force computer mistaking the moon for incoming nuclear missiles | 21:19 |
| fenn | and the man who mistook his wife for a hat | 21:20 |
| kanzure | maybe he should stop wearing his wife like a hat | 21:20 |
| fenn | "Dr. Sacks meets twin brothers who can neither read nor perform multiplication, yet are playing a "game" of finding very large prime numbers. While the twins were able to spontaneously generate these numbers, from six to twenty digits, Sacks had to resort to a book of prime numbers to join in with them." | 21:26 |
| fenn | untrusted wetware :( | 21:26 |
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| genehacker | dammit why do computers have to be so dumb | 21:26 |
| kanzure | this author is a little strange. he has the right levels of skepticism about ai but then restricts all of his work to behavior and motor output or something. | 21:28 |
| fenn | it's the behaviorist philosophy https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Behaviorism | 21:30 |
| kanzure | hmm | 21:31 |
| fenn | "thought is covert speech" is demonstrably wrong | 21:31 |
| fenn | but they didn't know that at the time | 21:31 |
| kanzure | at what time? | 21:32 |
| fenn | i want to say 1920s to 1960s | 21:32 |
| kanzure | okay, so just some general vague they | 21:33 |
| fenn | "scientists" | 21:33 |
| fenn | you know, like in the news, "scientists discover that pigeons love playing poker" | 21:33 |
| kanzure | is there a robo turing test, where you don't know if a robot is being operated by a human? | 21:33 |
| kanzure | there should be an embodied turing test. | 21:34 |
| fenn | and an embodied reverse turing test | 21:34 |
| kanzure | i bet most kids would fail though | 21:34 |
| fenn | you have to pick out the human among the robots | 21:35 |
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| kanzure | this is some sort of high-level racism of some kind | 21:35 |
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| fenn | obviously you never watched star trek | 21:37 |
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| kanzure | "Challenges for brain emulation: Why is building a brain so difficult?" http://synapticlink.org/Brain%20Emulation%20Challenges.pdf | 21:44 |
| kanzure | http://www.nengo.ca/ "Nengo is a graphical and scripting based software package for simulating large-scale neural systems. To use Nengo, you define groups of neurons in terms of what they represent, and then form connections between neural groups in terms of what computation should be performed on those representations. Nengo then uses the Neural Engineering Framework (NEF) to solve for the appropriate synaptic connection weights to ... | 21:51 |
| kanzure | ... achieve this desired computation. Nengo also supports various kinds of learning. Nengo helps make detailed spiking neuron models that implement complex high-level cognitive algorithms. Among other things, Nengo has been used to implement motor control, visual attention, serial recall, action selection, working memory, attractor networks, inductive reasoning, path integration, and planning with problem solving (see the model archives ... | 21:51 |
| kanzure | ... and publications for details)." | 21:51 |
| kanzure | http://models.nengo.ca/spaun "Spaun is a biologically realistic model of cognition that is not only able to perform multiple (at least 10) cognitive, perceptual, and motor tasks, but also utilizes the same model parameters across all tasks. Spaun is able to perform tasks that encompass strictly visual tasks (e.g. recognition of handwritten digits), memory tasks (e.g. forward and backward recall of a list), simple cognitive tasks (e.g. ... | 21:52 |
| kanzure | ... counting), and complex fluid intelligence tasks (e.g. solving the Raven's Progressive Matrices)." | 21:52 |
| kanzure | http://nengo.ca/build-a-brain/ | 21:53 |
| kanzure | hmm | 21:53 |
| kanzure | "All of the control like steps (e.g. 'compared with', 'inferred', and routing information through the system), are implemented by a biologically plausible basal ganglia model. " | 21:54 |
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| kanzure | such charting http://nengo.ca/drupal/sites/nengo.ca/files/spaun_0.png | 21:57 |
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| nmz787 | black friday at best buy and office depot was kind crazy... they had quad-core intel atom tablets for $40 | 22:07 |
| nmz787 | it is so friggin crazy to me that an ENTIRE computer is now $40 (screen, input, GPS, wifi, speakers, camera) | 22:08 |
| fenn | how much does it actually cost to build a tablet? | 22:08 |
| fenn | don't forget battery | 22:09 |
| nmz787 | in dollars it must be less than or around that (but they had a huge bin full of them at best buy around 7PM last night, which is quite late) | 22:09 |
| nmz787 | in person hours I have no idea | 22:09 |
| fenn | a huge bin full? did you take a picture? | 22:09 |
| nmz787 | I did not | 22:10 |
| nmz787 | it was like 3 ft high | 22:10 |
| nmz787 | the screen color was pretty bad and low-res too, but it was quad friggin core (512 MB RAM) | 22:10 |
| fenn | apparently allwinner A33 tv plugs are "quad core" | 22:11 |
| nmz787 | they also aren't sold at best buy, and don't have screens and input | 22:11 |
| fenn | sure, but it's a kinda crappy cpu | 22:11 |
| nmz787 | oh, apparently still $40 with free shipping http://www.bestbuy.com/site/digiland-7-8gb-black/8610212.p?id=1219354106671&skuId=8610212 | 22:12 |
| nmz787 | 'MediaTek MTK8127 Cortex-A7' | 22:12 |
| nmz787 | wait | 22:12 |
| nmz787 | that isn't an atom | 22:12 |
| nmz787 | i guess office depot had the atom | 22:12 |
| kanzure | "Eye movements during comprehension of spoken scene descriptions" http://eyethink.org/resources/lab_papers/Spivey2000_Eye_movements_duri.pdf | 22:13 |
| kanzure | "A recent eyetracking experiment has indicated that, while staring at a blank white display, participants engaged in imagery tend to make eye movements that mimic the directionality of spatial expressions in the speech stream (Spivey & Geng, 2000). This result is consistent with a spatial mental models account of language comprehension (e.g., Johnson-Laird, 1983), adds a motor component to evidence for activation of perceptual mechanisms ... | 22:13 |
| kanzure | ... during visual imagery (e.g., Kosslyn, Thompson, Kim, & Alpert, 1995), and fits with claims regarding the embodiment of cognition (e.g., Varela, Thompson, & Rosch, 1991). However, some methodological concerns remain. We report some preliminary observations, and a controlled experiment, in which these methodological concerns are resolved. We demonstrate that, even when the speech includes no instructions to imagine anything, and even ... | 22:13 |
| kanzure | ... when participants’ eyes are closed, participants tend to make eye movements in the same direction (and especially along the same axis) as the described scene when listening to a spatially extended scene description.." | 22:13 |
| kanzure | things associated with eye movement: ... actually i forgot the other fun things. | 22:13 |
| kanzure | attention | 22:13 |
| kanzure | long-term memory recall | 22:14 |
| fenn | well that makes perfect sense | 22:15 |
| fenn | "looking at stuff" | 22:16 |
| nmz787 | all, yes, here it is http://www.officedepot.com/a/products/429181/Apex-7-Tablet-8GB-Black-TM772/ | 22:16 |
| fenn | nmz787 i've never seen a computer with built-in fm tuner before | 22:16 |
| nmz787 | oh, 1GB RAM, and 1.2GHz Intel® Atom™ Clovertrail Z2520 | 22:16 |
| nmz787 | my old phone had one, I was upset a few days ago when I found my new phone lacked it | 22:17 |
| kanzure | what happens if they introduce a scene description about an impossible mathematical shape | 22:17 |
| nmz787 | since I was interested in the radio program I was listening to in the car when I came home | 22:17 |
| kanzure | do they become cross-eyed? | 22:17 |
| kanzure | or go blind? | 22:17 |
| fenn | kanzure: then the entire hive is thrown into disarray, pure genocide | 22:17 |
| fenn | 50% post-consumer content - android tablets are people!!! | 22:19 |
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| nmz787 | lol | 22:21 |
| nmz787 | i kinda want one of these just to have around | 22:21 |
| kanzure | i wonder what psychologists said about working memory before the working memory analogy | 22:21 |
| nmz787 | friggin cheaper than a raspberry pi | 22:21 |
| fenn | "train of thought" | 22:21 |
| kanzure | oh really? same thing? | 22:21 |
| * fenn shrugs | 22:21 | |
| fenn | i'm the wrong person to ask about what psychologists think | 22:22 |
| kanzure | "you can remember anything you want, as long as you are okay with 8 weeks of cache warm up time" | 22:23 |
| fenn | hey a turing machine can calculate anything, given enough time | 22:24 |
| fenn | i wonder if someone's built a turing machine in minecraft out of mining carts moving back and forth | 22:25 |
| kanzure | of course | 22:25 |
| kanzure | .g site:youtube.com minecraft turing machine | 22:26 |
| yoleaux | http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1X21HQphy6I | 22:26 |
| kanzure | praise youtube | 22:26 |
| fenn | are those minecarts? it looks like the blocks are just moving around on their own | 22:28 |
| kanzure | "redstone logic" | 22:29 |
| kanzure | use youtube-dl -t to get titles | 22:29 |
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| fenn | i see the redstone... but what makes the tape move | 22:30 |
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| fenn | ok this is a little nuts | 22:43 |
| fenn | .title http://aurellem.org/vba-clojure/html/total-control.html | 22:43 |
| yoleaux | Pokemon Yellow Total Control Hack | 22:43 |
| kanzure | https://github.com/papers-we-love/papers-we-love | 22:45 |
| kanzure | fenn: you may be interested in https://github.com/kanzure/pokemon-reverse-engineering-tools/blob/vba-automation/pokemontools/vba/vba.py | 22:45 |
| kanzure | originally my vba bindings were based on his (aurellem's) clojure bindings except i was using jython | 22:45 |
| kanzure | until i wrote vba-linux | 22:45 |
| kanzure | er wait, he wrote vba-linux | 22:46 |
| kanzure | and then i wrote ctypes bindings | 22:46 |
| kanzure | oh right, he wrote vba-clojure, and i renamed it to vba-linux | 22:46 |
| fenn | what is vba? | 22:46 |
| kanzure | some shitty emulator | 22:47 |
| fenn | did they just not want to use a trademarked term? | 22:47 |
| kanzure | visualboyadvance | 22:47 |
| kanzure | my guess is that the authors were proud about using sdl | 22:48 |
| kanzure | and somehow sdl is related to visual | 22:48 |
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| fenn | what's with the weird lack of color | 22:52 |
| fenn | the title screen is obviously in color but the game seems confused whether it's in color or not | 22:52 |
| kanzure | ask in #pret | 22:53 |
| kanzure | paperbot: http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/0196885886900230 | 22:59 |
| kanzure | .title | 22:59 |
| yoleaux | Sequences of numbers generated by addition in formal groups and new primality and factorization tests | 22:59 |
| paperbot | http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/paperbot/%0A%20Sequences%20of%20numbers%20generated%20by%20addition%20in%20formal%20groups%20and%20new%20primality%20and%20factorization%20tests%0A%20.pdf | 22:59 |
| kanzure | paperbot: http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/0196885886900230/pdf?md5=c7600bd9b161a990c371e7496ec02156&pid=1-s2.0-0196885886900230-main.pdf | 23:00 |
| kanzure | http://goertzel.org/AGI_survey_early_draft.pdf | 23:20 |
| kanzure | fenn: you might want to wait in that channel until iimarckus, sanky or padz shows up | 23:35 |
| fenn | meh | 23:35 |
| fenn | i'm just asking totally dumb questions anyway | 23:35 |
| fenn | like "what's a game boy" | 23:35 |
| kanzure | does reinforced learning count as intelligence? | 23:36 |
| kanzure | (dogs) | 23:36 |
| fenn | dogs do a lot more than just learning | 23:36 |
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| kanzure | but does it count as "general intelligence" | 23:37 |
| fenn | i think i read something about bacteria being able to predict certain patterns of environmental changes | 23:37 |
| fenn | no, intelligence doesn't exist | 23:38 |
| fenn | there, are you happy now | 23:38 |
| fenn | i am avoiding reading "the g factor" | 23:38 |
| fenn | the author likes to bloviate profusely | 23:39 |
| kanzure | i'm not entirely sure if you're supposed to be able to train mental arithmetic with reinforcement | 23:39 |
| fenn | in dogs? | 23:39 |
| kanzure | well in dogs and similarly brained animals | 23:39 |
| kanzure | what's supposed to be outside the scope of reinforcement | 23:40 |
| fenn | there have been numerous anecdotes of "counting horses" but it always(?) turned out that the owner was giving the horse cues subconsciously | 23:40 |
| kanzure | or was this one of these unlimited theories | 23:40 |
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| kanzure | "no you're just not reinforcing electrodynamics in the rabbit properly" | 23:41 |
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| fenn | kanzure have you ever read about hypnosis? | 23:44 |
| kanzure | along the lines of http://www.robot-hugs.com/technique/ | 23:44 |
| kanzure | a long time ago. not much. some stuffs. for/against. | 23:44 |
| fenn | well it seems like something is happening, but i'm not sure what | 23:45 |
| fenn | and like, has anyone hypnotized a mouse | 23:45 |
| kanzure | no but we've fed them lsd | 23:46 |
| kanzure | in the interest of science of course | 23:46 |
| fenn | something that made sense was that you can only deactivate certain brain functions with hypnosis, you can't create new ones | 23:46 |
| fenn | but you can get to mind-states that are impossible to reach when those functions are active | 23:47 |
| fenn | now i'm rambling | 23:47 |
| kanzure | does it work if you are already lobotomized? | 23:47 |
| fenn | probably not | 23:48 |
| fenn | i'm pretty sure this entire area is swamped with pseusoscience bullshit going back hundreds if not thousands of years, and somehow science hasn't corrected this yet | 23:49 |
| fenn | no less than 8 definitions on wikipedia | 23:50 |
| fenn | "a biological capacity" | 23:51 |
| fenn | oh really | 23:51 |
| fenn | "There are several different induction techniques. One of the most influential methods was Braid's "eye-fixation" technique, also known as "Braidism". Many variations of the eye-fixation approach exist, including the induction used in the Stanford Hypnotic Susceptibility Scale (SHSS), the most widely used research tool in the field of hypnotism." | 23:52 |
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