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| nsh | recommended: http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b04sttd7 | 01:17 |
|---|---|---|
| nsh | (can get from iplayer later) | 01:17 |
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| nsh | .t http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-25674738 | 02:43 |
| yoleaux | nsh: Sorry, I don't know a timezone by that name. | 02:43 |
| nsh | .title | 02:43 |
| yoleaux | BBC News - Battery advance could boost renewable energy take-up | 02:43 |
| nsh | .wik Quinones | 02:43 |
| yoleaux | "A quinone is a class of organic compounds that are formally "derived from aromatic compounds [such as benzene or naphthalene] by conversion of an even number of –CH= groups into –C(=O)– groups with any necessary rearrangement of double bonds", resulting in "a fully conjugated cyclic dione structure". The class includes some heterocyclic compounds." — http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quinones | 02:43 |
| nsh | .wik Flow battery | 02:43 |
| yoleaux | "A flow battery , or redox flow battery (after reduction–oxidation), is a type of rechargeable battery where rechargeability is provided by two chemical components dissolved in liquids contained within the system and separated by a membrane.Ion exchange (providing flow of electrical current) occurs through the membrane while both liquids …" — http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flow_battery | 02:43 |
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| kanzure | beep | 05:16 |
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| kanzure | http://blog.cryptographyengineering.com/2014/11/zero-knowledge-proofs-illustrated-primer.html | 05:49 |
| kanzure | https://grey.colorado.edu/emergent/index.php/Comparison_of_Neural_Network_Simulators | 05:51 |
| kanzure | cc archels | 05:52 |
| kanzure | svn checkout --username anonymous --password emergent https://grey.colorado.edu/svn/emergent/emergent/trunk emergent-trunk | 05:53 |
| kanzure | https://grey.colorado.edu/emergent/index.php/Screenshots | 05:54 |
| archels | neat, considerable updates since I last cached it | 05:56 |
| kanzure | archels: also http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/neuro/randall-oreilly/ | 06:00 |
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| faceface_ | any decent ebay type software? | 07:46 |
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| kanzure | not really | 07:47 |
| faceface | yeah... | 07:55 |
| faceface | could be a nice 'module' for something like drupal | 07:56 |
| faceface | Reported installs: 58 sites currently report using this module | 07:57 |
| faceface | https://www.drupal.org/project/auction | 07:57 |
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| kanzure | in general i highly recommend not using drupal | 08:04 |
| faceface | indeed | 08:19 |
| faceface | it's a horrible thing | 08:19 |
| faceface | but the modules are a deep resource | 08:19 |
| faceface | and for a muppet like me, it can be superficially convenient | 08:20 |
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| nmz787_i | .title http://wiki.backyardbrains.com/Ethical_Issues_Regarding_Using_Invertebrates_in_Education | 09:42 |
| yoleaux | Ethical Issues Regarding the Use of Invertebrates in Education - Backyard Brains | 09:42 |
| kanzure | "Criticism: “You are objectifying the cockroach."" | 09:44 |
| kanzure | "Criticism: This is pseudoscience. Electricity doesn't exist." | 09:44 |
| nmz787_i | heh, I didn't see that last one | 09:49 |
| kanzure | "Criticism: You can't prove virtual photons exist. There is only one electron and you are tormenting it." | 09:54 |
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| chris_99 | Anyone played around with lasers much | 10:31 |
| chris_99 | i'm just looking to get a beam splitter | 10:31 |
| chris_99 | to make a laser mic | 10:31 |
| kanzure | chris_99: http://dmundoptics.com/ | 10:31 |
| kanzure | chris_99: http://edmundoptics.com/ | 10:32 |
| kanzure | or http://thorlabs.com/ | 10:32 |
| chris_99 | merci, i was just looking @ http://www.aliexpress.com/item/Polarization-Beam-Splitter-Broadband-transparent-450nm-660nm/846524754.html | 10:32 |
| kanzure | ask nmz787_i | 10:32 |
| chris_99 | aha will do when he's about, cheers | 10:33 |
| chris_99 | ah the edmund ones are like $180 alas | 10:35 |
| nmz787_i | simon field sells a kit I believe, or if not, there are cheap kits out there for that | 10:36 |
| chris_99 | oh i presume i'd want a non-polarizing one, or does that not make a diff. if i'm using a laser? | 10:36 |
| nmz787_i | a cheap (relative to optics prices) beam splitter is either a prism or a half-silvered mirror | 10:37 |
| nmz787_i | err | 10:37 |
| nmz787_i | maybe prism is not the right word | 10:37 |
| chris_99 | two prisms glued apparenlty | 10:37 |
| chris_99 | ? | 10:37 |
| nmz787_i | http://scitoys.com/scitoys/scitoys/light/light.html#laser_communicator | 10:38 |
| nmz787_i | yeah I think two prisms will do it too | 10:38 |
| chris_99 | yeah i want to do it with a beam splitter though, as then it'll catch the reflection at 0deg | 10:39 |
| nmz787_i | I am not sure the difference in quality, but their effect on the beam (mirror vs dual-prism) will likely be different... though you probably don't care | 10:39 |
| chris_99 | mmm as long as it works heh | 10:40 |
| nmz787_i | it would probably just mess with the shape a bit | 10:40 |
| nmz787_i | or wavefront | 10:40 |
| nmz787_i | but I don't think that will matter for audio | 10:40 |
| nmz787_i | fiber optic splitters are just two pieces of fiber optic next to each other | 10:40 |
| chris_99 | you think that aliexpress one looks ok? | 10:41 |
| nmz787_i | which would also likely be fine for you, though you'd probably need some lenses to pipe the laser into and out of the fiber | 10:41 |
| nmz787_i | hmm, I am not sure about the polarization part | 10:41 |
| chris_99 | yeah | 10:41 |
| chris_99 | me too | 10:41 |
| nmz787_i | ebay seems to have cheaper options | 10:42 |
| nmz787_i | e.g. http://www.ebay.com/itm/ColorMaker-Glass-Cube-Prism-Cross-Dichroic-RGB-Combiner-Splitter-7-8-Cube/251627619901?_trksid=p2047675.c100005.m1851&_trkparms=aid%3D222007%26algo%3DSIC.MBE%26ao%3D1%26asc%3D27538%26meid%3D04715074cca84306b0cb2869991b6210%26pid%3D100005%26prg%3D11353%26rk%3D3%26rkt%3D6%26sd%3D281512318721&rt=nc | 10:43 |
| nmz787_i | or http://www.ebay.com/itm/Eye-of-Horus-Beam-Splitter-for-Khet-2-0-Laser-Game-/191040434353?pt=Games_US&hash=item2c7ae5b0b1 | 10:43 |
| chris_99 | hmm doesn't that look like its composed of 4 | 10:43 |
| chris_99 | prisms | 10:43 |
| nmz787_i | or http://www.ebay.com/itm/50R-50T-Plate-Beamsplitter-32x32x1-1mm-1-Lot-of-5x/221619661926?_trksid=p2047675.c100005.m1851&_trkparms=aid%3D222007%26algo%3DSIC.MBE%26ao%3D1%26asc%3D27538%26meid%3D04715074cca84306b0cb2869991b6210%26pid%3D100005%26prg%3D11353%26rk%3D2%26rkt%3D6%26sd%3D281512318721&rt=nc | 10:43 |
| nmz787_i | 5 for $25 | 10:43 |
| nmz787_i | aliexpress version isn't much better http://www.aliexpress.com/item/Optical-Beamsplitter-Plate-Half-Reflecting-Mirror/1356879436.html | 10:45 |
| chris_99 | on the UK ebay theres none of those cheap ones :( | 10:45 |
| nmz787_i | huh, how about amazon UK? | 10:46 |
| nmz787_i | some targeted ad just sent me to an amazon search with keywords: Beam Splitter Cube | 10:46 |
| nmz787_i | chris_99: is shipping much from US to UK for something like that, seems like it would be a small packet | 10:47 |
| chris_99 | yeah i could definitely do that | 10:47 |
| chris_99 | just found http://www.amazon.co.uk/Color-Combining-Dichroic-Splitter-Glass/dp/B00KK9HTIW/ref=sr_1_15?ie=UTF8&qid=1417459604&sr=8-15&keywords=beam+splitter | 10:47 |
| nmz787_i | http://www.amazon.co.uk/Color-Combining-Dichroic-Splitter-Glass/dp/B00KK9HTIW/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1417459648&sr=8-1&keywords=Beam+Splitter+Cube | 10:47 |
| chris_99 | but doesn't it look like it's > 2 prisms | 10:47 |
| nmz787_i | $6 pound or whatever | 10:47 |
| chris_99 | i'm not sure that'd work though because it's 4 | 10:47 |
| nmz787_i | hmm? | 10:48 |
| chris_99 | it's 4 prisms | 10:48 |
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| chris_99 | rather than 32 | 10:48 |
| chris_99 | *2 | 10:48 |
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| nmz787_i | you'd just add some mirrors to the sides you didn't want to use | 10:48 |
| nmz787_i | or some aluminum foil | 10:48 |
| chris_99 | oh you think with 4 it'd still reflect ok? | 10:48 |
| chris_99 | i'm thinking the other one would disrupt | 10:49 |
| chris_99 | the input signal | 10:49 |
| nmz787_i | if it messed it up you could probably switch to black felt to absorb the beams you weren't using | 10:50 |
| nmz787_i | i would search a little more for a cheaper 2-piece though first | 10:50 |
| chris_99 | mmm yeah ill keep looking | 10:51 |
| nmz787_i | i see lots of results http://www.ebay.co.uk/sch/i.html?_from=R40&_sacat=0&_nkw=beamsplitter+mirror&LH_PrefLoc=2&_arm=1&_armm=63&_ruu=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.ebay.co.uk%2Fsch%2Fi.html%3F_from%3DR40%26_sacat%3D0%26_nkw%3Dbeamsplitter%2Bmirror%26_arr%3D1 | 10:52 |
| nmz787_i | oh, wait, one is a US entry | 10:52 |
| nmz787_i | weird the search list shows me different shipping cost than when I click the item | 10:53 |
| chris_99 | odd | 10:53 |
| nmz787_i | you can get away with a CD or DVD jewel case (or the blank no-line disc that they put on top of the spindles) | 10:54 |
| chris_99 | http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/1-lot-of-2x-50R-50T-Standard-Cube-Beamsplitter-10mm-/221622275891?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item3399b78f33 | 10:55 |
| chris_99 | £30 for 2 | 10:55 |
| nmz787_i | a TOSlink splitter might suffice for you, and you should be able to pick one up locally for about $5 | 10:57 |
| nmz787_i | so cheap and easy if it doesn't work | 10:57 |
| chris_99 | oh interesting | 10:58 |
| nmz787_i | sorry I can't find a zoomed in version of this http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/61j41m97TZL._SX522_.jpg | 11:00 |
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| nmz787_i | but it's literally just two fibers on the backside, that are next to each other on the front/input | 11:00 |
| chris_99 | interesting | 11:01 |
| chris_99 | cool | 11:01 |
| nmz787_i | but your beam divergence will likely be more than the half-millimeter or so that separate the two | 11:02 |
| nmz787_i | so should be fine | 11:02 |
| nmz787_i | may be fine* | 11:02 |
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| chris_99 | :) | 11:04 |
| nmz787_i | the bigger problem would be if the divergence was enough that the watts/area is low, combined with the small fiber aperture, could lead to signal at the photodiode being too low | 11:04 |
| nmz787_i | which is when you might need a lens to collect the return signal and focus it down better | 11:05 |
| nmz787_i | so it depends primarily on your laser's initial divergence, and also the distance the beam needs to travel | 11:05 |
| chris_99 | yep that's true | 11:06 |
| nmz787_i | and if you shoot onto a piece of glass (a window) unless the glass is pretty dirty, the beam is not going directly back to the splitter | 11:13 |
| chris_99 | true, so it'd need to be at a slight angle? | 11:14 |
| nmz787_i | hard to say, I guess it would depend on the windo | 11:14 |
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| nmz787_i | chris_99: did you ever do openCV on Android? | 11:27 |
| nmz787_i | I managed to get it working for me over the weekend | 11:27 |
| chris_99 | i just did image processing in the end, not opencv | 11:27 |
| kanzure | .title http://spectrum.ieee.org/geek-life/hands-on/diy-exoplanet-detector | 11:27 |
| yoleaux | DIY Exoplanet Detector - IEEE Spectrum | 11:27 |
| chris_99 | ah cool | 11:27 |
| nmz787_i | now I need to investigate GUI layout in Android a bit | 11:27 |
| chris_99 | cool, what are you making? | 11:27 |
| kanzure | cc superkuh | 11:27 |
| nmz787_i | chris_99: I've had a few ideas for a while, one would be a live/dead detector for a hemocytometer image (or any image of different colored blobs) | 11:28 |
| chris_99 | cool | 11:28 |
| nmz787_i | another was the FIB/CNC related stuff I have been working on | 11:28 |
| nmz787_i | but I realized that since I'm using a USB video capture device, I would need an Android driver for it, which I have no idea how loading kernel modules work in Android | 11:29 |
| chris_99 | ah hmm | 11:29 |
| chris_99 | me neither | 11:29 |
| chris_99 | i noticed the mass spectrometer i was looking at has come down to £850, when it hits £100 i'll buy it ;) | 11:29 |
| nmz787_i | oh? | 11:29 |
| nmz787_i | which is that? | 11:29 |
| chris_99 | sec | 11:29 |
| chris_99 | it might not even work though | 11:30 |
| nmz787_i | that sounds ridiculously cheap | 11:30 |
| nmz787_i | (does it come with pumps?) | 11:30 |
| chris_99 | http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/281506750396?_trksid=p2055119.m1438.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT | 11:30 |
| kanzure | title | 11:30 |
| kanzure | .title | 11:30 |
| yoleaux | Mass Spectrometer Waters Micromass Tof Spec 2E | eBay | 11:30 |
| kanzure | podcast, nick bostrom, superintelligence (from today) http://www.econtalk.org/archives/2014/12/nick_bostrom_on.html | 11:32 |
| kanzure | .title | 11:33 |
| yoleaux | Nick Bostrom on Superintelligence | EconTalk | Library of Economics and Liberty | 11:33 |
| nmz787_i | http://www.umich.edu/~techserv/massspec/tof.pdf | 11:33 |
| kanzure | "reduce the risk" | 11:33 |
| kanzure | you can't reduce the risk of something inherently deadly.... i can't believe these people are so dishonest. | 11:33 |
| nmz787_i | hmm, if it was local I would be interested in it... | 11:33 |
| heath | who's going to be receiving an opentrons? | 11:34 |
| chris_99 | do you think it's got everything | 11:34 |
| kanzure | (they should explicitly say that they are talking about "reducing the number of people working on these projects and opportunities for them to engage in this work") | 11:34 |
| heath | i couldn't afford it this go around, but it is on github, so it shouldn't be too difficiult to replicate | 11:34 |
| kanzure | (and "reducing the likelihood of these projects to exist or happen at all, at least within the bounds that we can set, and we are totally not promising that we can reduce the riskyness of impossible-to-fix risky things") | 11:35 |
| nmz787_i | chris_99: can't tell, it would help if the manuals are there... looks like folks on ebay selling them alone for as much price http://www.ebay.com/itm/Micromass-TOF-SPEC-2E-Mass-Spectrometer-Manuals-and-Booklets-/271136831153 | 11:37 |
| chris_99 | ooh cheers | 11:37 |
| chris_99 | oh what a rip heh | 11:38 |
| nmz787_i | likely stuff is missing, but it appears that the bulk of it may be there... hard to tell though with my relatively untrained eye | 11:38 |
| chris_99 | mmm | 11:39 |
| nmz787_i | it says "This is a used machine - has been removed from a working environment as a working machine looks to be complete, see pictures." | 11:39 |
| nmz787_i | "we have no manuals - these are available from the manufacturer or online." HAH | 11:39 |
| nmz787_i | these manufacturers seem very unlikely to provide such manual | 11:40 |
| nmz787_i | I think for fear of competitors reverse-engineering | 11:40 |
| chris_99 | heh | 11:40 |
| chris_99 | yeah | 11:40 |
| nmz787_i | "lots of valuable power supplies, components etc - IF USED FOR SPARES - some of these HV power supplies etc sell on here for £500 + so it could be a valuable source of spares for those who work in this field." | 11:40 |
| nmz787_i | the real kicker would be if it had the vacuum pumps with it | 11:40 |
| chris_99 | ah are they v. expensive | 11:43 |
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| nmz787_i | yeah | 11:45 |
| nmz787_i | at least $1000 used, if not like $3000 | 11:46 |
| nmz787_i | there may be chinese brands I don't know of | 11:46 |
| chris_99 | would that be a turbomolecular vac pump? | 11:48 |
| * bkero usually repurposes automotive vacuum pumps | 11:51 | |
| bkero | Wenkel engines require vacuum lines all over the place to operate, and the maintenance of the community is enough to actually have a competitive market for vacuum pumps. | 11:51 |
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| kragen | .wik Wenkel engine | 11:54 |
| yoleaux | "The Wankel engine is a type of internal combustion engine using an eccentric rotary design to convert pressure into rotating motion. Over the commonly used reciprocating piston designs, the Wankel engine delivers advantages of: simplicity, smoothness, compactness, high revolutions per minute, and a high power-to-weight ratio." — http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wankel_engine | 11:54 |
| chris_99 | what does an engine use a vacuum pump for? | 11:55 |
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| nmz787_i | most engines use vacuum though | 11:58 |
| nmz787_i | chris_99: for powering things, for sensing things (using ambient pressure relative to manifold vacuum/pressure to determine mass air flow) | 11:59 |
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| chris_99 | aha | 12:02 |
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| kanzure | i wish i would have found this years ago: | 12:09 |
| kanzure | http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/neuro/Monkey%20to%20human%20comparative%20anatomy%20of%20the%20frontal%20lobe%20association%20tracts.pdf | 12:09 |
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| kragen | chris_99: the reason the throttle is called that is that the actual throttle valve itself limits the airflow into the engine intake | 12:14 |
| kragen | you might have thought that it controlled the fuel flow | 12:15 |
| kragen | but actually what happens is that the fuel flow is regulated to correspond to the airflow, and you directly control the airflow | 12:15 |
| chris_99 | mm i had no idea it controlled air flow | 12:15 |
| kragen | think of being throttled by an angry soldier | 12:16 |
| kragen | he's limiting your airflow | 12:16 |
| chris_99 | heh | 12:16 |
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| kanzure | "major differences were found for the arcuate fasciculus and the inferior fronto-occipital fasciculus, which may underlie unique human cognitive functions" | 12:52 |
| kanzure | "inferior fronto-occipital fasciculus (IFOF)" | 12:53 |
| kanzure | "Anatomic dissection of the inferior fronto-occipital fasciculus revisited in the lights of brain stimulation data" http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0010945209002512 | 12:54 |
| kanzure | "Here, in the lights of these new functional data, we dissected 14 post-mortem human hemispheres using the Klingler fiber dissection technique, to study the IFOF fibers and to identify their actual cortical terminations in the parietal, occipital and temporal lobes. We identified two different components of the IFOF: (i) a superficial and dorsal subcomponent, which connects the frontal lobe with the superior parietal lobe and the ... | 12:54 |
| kanzure | ... posterior portion of the superior and middle occipital gyri, (ii) a deep and ventral subcomponent, which connects the frontal lobe with the posterior portion of the inferior occipital gyrus and the posterior temporo-basal area. Thus, our results are in line with the hypothesis of the functional role of the IFOF in the semantic system, by showing that it is mainly connected with two areas involved in semantics: the occipital ... | 12:54 |
| kanzure | ... associative extrastriate cortex and the temporo-basal region. Further combined anatomical (dissection and Diffusion Tensor Imaging) and functional (intraoperative subcortical stimulation) studies are needed, to clarify the exact participation of each IFOF subcomponent in semantic processing." | 12:54 |
| nmz787_i | kragen: except in the case of direct injection | 12:56 |
| nmz787_i | where the 'throttle' is just connected to a sensor | 12:56 |
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| kanzure | "Normal variation in fronto-occipital circuitry and cerebellar structure with an autism-associated polymorphism of CNTNAP2" http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2941042/ | 13:04 |
| kanzure | "We compared volumetric differences in white and grey matter and fractional anisotropy values in control subjects characterised by genotype at rs7794745, a single nucleotide polymorphism in CNTNAP2. Homozygotes for the risk allele showed significant reductions in grey and white matter volume and fractional anisotropy in several regions that have already been implicated in ASD, including the cerebellum, fusiform gyrus, occipital and ... | 13:04 |
| kanzure | ... frontal cortices. Male homozygotes for the risk alleles showed greater reductions in grey matter in the right frontal pole and in FA in the right rostral fronto-occipital fasciculus compared to their female counterparts who showed greater reductions in FA of the anterior thalamic radiation. Thus a risk allele for autism results in significant cerebral morphological variation, despite the absence of overt symptoms or behavioural ... | 13:04 |
| kanzure | ... abnormalities. The results are consistent with accumulating evidence of CNTNAP2's function in neuronal development. The finding suggests the possibility that the heterogeneous manifestations of ASD can be aetiologically characterised into distinct subtypes through genetic-morphological analysis." | 13:04 |
| kanzure | well, only slightly related | 13:06 |
| kanzure | although a single allele causing significant variations in grey matter vlume is neat | 13:07 |
| kanzure | *volume | 13:07 |
| kragen | nmz787_i: I don't know much about direct injection engines but I know direct injection engines with throttle valves do exist | 13:09 |
| kragen | I'm sure pure drive-by-wire ones also exist | 13:09 |
| kragen | you seem to be saying that the second are vastly more common than the first. you could be right | 13:10 |
| kragen | I've only worked on very old engines! | 13:10 |
| kragen | (reading, it looks like you are right) | 13:11 |
| nmz787_i | well more common since maybe 10 years ago | 13:13 |
| nmz787_i | another thing to consider for non-direct-injection is that lower pressure will aide fuel atomization/vaporization to some degree, however minor that may be | 13:14 |
| --- Log closed Mon Dec 01 13:24:10 2014 | ||
| --- Log opened Mon Dec 01 13:24:21 2014 | ||
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| chris_99 | http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn26644-hypnotising-patterns-created-in-electric-soap-films.html#.VHze6IWeeBs | 13:35 |
| chris_99 | isn't this electrowetting? | 13:35 |
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| archels | ,--8<- | 14:07 |
| archels | |No part of this manual may be reproduced, stored in a retrieval system, or transmitted, in any form or by any means, electronic, | 14:07 |
| archels | |mechanical, photocopying, microfilming, recording, or otherwise, without written permission from Soterix Medical Inc. | 14:07 |
| archels | `-->8- | 14:07 |
| archels | microfilming, lol | 14:07 |
| archels | also what is this ungodly paste script doing to my pastes | 14:07 |
| kragen | it is putting ASCII art of scissors around them | 14:08 |
| kragen | microfilm still seems to me to be the most reasonable existing way to do long-time text archival | 14:08 |
| kragen | I mean of course we could lose it all in a foom next week | 14:08 |
| kragen | and of course we could have a more gradual smooth transition to a stable posthuman existence | 14:09 |
| kragen | but it seems entirely plausible that we will continue to experience occasional civilizational collapses instead of either of those | 14:10 |
| kragen | hard disks will not survive a civilizational collapse in a useful way | 14:10 |
| kragen | microfilm is stable for millennia, is cheap to produce, can be read without advanced machinery, and is vastly denser than any other medium with those properties | 14:13 |
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| nmz787_i | kragen: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HD-Rosetta | 14:35 |
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| kragen | nmz787_i: yeah, that's what inspired me to start thinking about this problem someten years or so ago | 14:37 |
| kragen | the thing is that the cost is about US$0.025 per page, and you need a scanning electron microscope to read it | 14:38 |
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| kragen | by contrast, you can print on PET film or acid-free paper with a regular laser printer at 600dpi at 16:1 reduction, which you can read with a magnifying glass, for about US$0.0004 per page | 14:41 |
| kragen | about 64 times cheaper | 14:41 |
| kragen | and it still lasts 1000 years with no trouble | 14:41 |
| kragen | if you have a 1200dpi printer you get another factor of 4 boost | 14:43 |
| kragen | I think I can get to 25 pages per sheet of PET film without needing even a magnifying glass by printing on both sides | 14:43 |
| nmz787_i | kragen: you don't actually need an SEM if your feature size is sufficiently large | 14:44 |
| nmz787_i | I've seen their demos using simple phase contrast microscopy | 14:45 |
| kragen | yeah, you can make the features big enough to see with optical microscopy for another factor of 2 increase in price per page, IIRC | 14:46 |
| kragen | what would be really good at getting the cost down would be casting | 14:46 |
| kragen | I mean, if you want Lots Of Copies to Keep Stuff Safe | 14:47 |
| archels | hmm, is feature size inversely correlated with projected archival time? | 14:47 |
| kragen | no | 14:47 |
| nmz787_i | FIB time is $375/hr, data density depends on FIB spot size, so you can probably calculate cost per data using an implant dose table | 14:47 |
| kragen | there is a relationship but it is not a simple inverse | 14:47 |
| nmz787_i | and yeah the outcome is a mold | 14:47 |
| nmz787_i | which you can them stamp into hot plastic or injection mold onto | 14:48 |
| archels | HD-Rosetta disadvantages include: | 14:48 |
| archels | Size: HD-Rosetta can easily be lost. | 14:48 |
| kragen | nmz787_i: I was using US$5000 per disc as my cost estimate | 14:48 |
| archels | lol. | 14:48 |
| nmz787_i | there is the electroforming process which would be on top of the FIB beam time | 14:48 |
| nmz787_i | and also any design time that you'd need to spend talking to an engineer about feasibility of data density for what your retrieval method will be, etc. | 14:49 |
| nmz787_i | kragen: while an initial disc may be $5k, it would be able to stamp many copies of itself, so total cost per item would be lower | 14:50 |
| nmz787_i | I am not sure what the out-the-door cost generally is | 14:50 |
| archels | http://thespiritscience.net/2014/02/13/data-storage-crystal-quartz-will-change-everything/ | 14:51 |
| kragen | yes, in theory you could make many copies of an HD-Rosetta disc in hot plastic | 14:51 |
| kragen | I don't think you can actually do injection molding because you will destroy the delicate features you're trying to mold | 14:51 |
| archels | looks like this just needs to be taken out of the lab--I'm sure that many similar projects exist around the globe | 14:51 |
| nmz787_i | kragen: I know how they do it, the company is 5 mins from my house | 14:52 |
| nmz787_i | and yeah they do have a small hand-pressed injection molder | 14:52 |
| kragen | nmz787_i: awesome! I didn't know anyone was actually doing this | 14:52 |
| kragen | what are their mold lifetimes like? | 14:52 |
| archels | these can be distributed incredibly easily, to other planets of the solar system or shot into deep space | 14:52 |
| kragen | presumably they're not molding in PET, right? | 14:52 |
| nmz787_i | (though I will admit I can't remember if they used the injector for making replicas, or if that was for some other project they had) | 14:52 |
| archels | carrying something like the entire of library genesis | 14:52 |
| kragen | most plastics are not very stable | 14:53 |
| archels | compared to microfilm, those are completely laughable | 14:53 |
| archels | I don't see it as such a big problem that you need an advanced device to read them out | 14:53 |
| nmz787_i | not sure what plastic, but after the fact they are coating in gold | 14:53 |
| nmz787_i | after the impression* | 14:53 |
| nmz787_i | so the mold itself is nickel and will last a long time | 14:54 |
| kragen | so they're doing this to create many perlong-term stable copies | 14:54 |
| nmz787_i | but the plastic impressions would be less hardy, sure | 14:54 |
| kragen | not necessarily | 14:54 |
| kragen | well | 14:54 |
| kragen | nickel can survive a very long time indeed | 14:54 |
| kragen | geological or cosmological timespans | 14:54 |
| kragen | in a reducing environment | 14:55 |
| archels | as can crystals ^ | 14:55 |
| archels | what's the smallest feature size that you can create with that FIB beam? | 14:55 |
| kragen | *other crystals | 14:56 |
| nmz787_i | archels: most stuff is some size crystal :P | 14:56 |
| nmz787_i | a metal form would be crystalline too | 14:56 |
| nmz787_i | how nice it was, that's a question | 14:56 |
| kragen | archels: that blog post is continued in http://thespiritscience.net/2014/02/15/legend-crystal-skulls/ | 14:56 |
| archels | solid nickel is not something I would normally refer to as a crystal, but quite possibly I don't know what I'm talking about | 14:56 |
| kragen | nickel is normally crystalline | 14:56 |
| nmz787_i | it certainly has crystal grain boundaries/interfaces | 14:56 |
| nmz787_i | "You’ve heard the tales. The legend of the Crystal Skull is the tale of our Ancient Ancestors using Crystal Technology to store memories, understandings, and even pure Consciousness itself, in a Pure Quartz Crystal Skull. Every thousand years, for the past 13 thousand years, there have been stories that a new Crystal Skull was created by the indigenous descendants of the Atlanteans." | 14:57 |
| nmz787_i | I had not heard that tale. | 14:57 |
| kragen | you can probably get it to be amorphous but I don't think anyone ever has | 14:57 |
| nmz787_i | archels: smallest beam size is about 10nm | 14:58 |
| kragen | I think glass is actually preferable if you're going for recording density | 14:58 |
| kragen | yeah, I hadn't heard that tale either | 14:58 |
| kragen | apparently someone prepared amorphous nickel for the first time in 1973 | 14:58 |
| archels | nmz787_i: alright, that's pretty good | 14:58 |
| archels | still, it's fundamentally 2D | 14:59 |
| archels | etching an optically transparent crystal can occur fully in 3D | 14:59 |
| nmz787_i | until they etch the implanted area, then it becomes 3d | 14:59 |
| nmz787_i | archels what do you mean by your last comment? | 15:00 |
| nmz787_i | 'etching fully in 3D'? | 15:00 |
| kragen | you can use laser glass fracture or the equivalent to record data at many depths | 15:01 |
| nmz787_i | oh, I see, you mean encoding stuff in the middle, not just on the surface | 15:01 |
| kanzure | what were those halide silver gel matrices with rhodopsin proteins | 15:02 |
| kragen | yeah, that's what the earlier spiritscience article was talking about | 15:02 |
| kanzure | they probably weren't halide silver | 15:02 |
| kanzure | nevermind, glass is better | 15:02 |
| kragen | so that process is already commercialized at macroscopic resolutions: http://www.bathsheba.com/crystal/ | 15:03 |
| kragen | process details at http://www.bathsheba.com/crystal/process/ | 15:05 |
| kragen | however those fractures are 100μm long | 15:05 |
| kragen | "None of this is cutting edge: it's been mature as long as I've been using it, which is since 2002" | 15:05 |
| kanzure | doesn't "cutting edge" mean "there is no more edge" not "immature"? | 15:07 |
| kragen | 1cm³ at 200μm resolution is only 125 bits though | 15:07 |
| nmz787_i | hmm, FIB and electron beams cause damage (i.e. fracturing) | 15:09 |
| nmz787_i | or they can cause damage | 15:09 |
| archels | .wa (1e-2/200e-6)**3 | 15:10 |
| yoleaux | ((1×10⁽⁻²⁾)/(200×10⁽⁻⁶⁾))³: 125000; Number name: 125 thousand; Number line: http://is.gd/Hvh0h9; Number length: 6 decimal digits | 15:10 |
| nmz787_i | I don't know if there's an equivalent for two-photon (two-particle) though | 15:10 |
| archels | so you'd need 8 million 1 cm³ cubes to store 1 TB at that resolution | 15:11 |
| archels | smaller feature size scales with the third power now though | 15:11 |
| kragen | uh, pardon my total lack of consciousness, apparently. thanks archels. | 15:12 |
| kragen | still, that's the same as three sheets of paper at 1cm² at 600dpi | 15:12 |
| archels | 1 micron bits -> 1 TB in one cube | 15:13 |
| kragen | yeah | 15:13 |
| archels | ah wait, you want to store binary data on paper by just printing dot/no dot? | 15:15 |
| kanzure | "Transcranial magnetic stimulation over human secondary somatosensory cortex disrupts perception of pain intensity" surprise? | 15:53 |
| fenn | mumble mumble two-photon or holographic recording medium | 15:55 |
| fenn | it's always a couple years behind magnetic media, so we never see consumer products | 15:56 |
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| kanzure | fenn: here are some hypnosis papers for you (i swear i wasn't looking for these... i'm just going through the monthly volumes) http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/journal/00109452/49/2 | 16:00 |
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| fenn | “Specifically, as the human moves her arm, the wireless reflections from her arm either constructively or destructively interfere with the direct signal from the Wi-Fi transmitter. This results in peaks and troughs in the amplitude of the received signals” | 16:20 |
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| RedMEdic | Hey | 16:20 |
| RedMEdic | Anyone online? | 16:20 |
| fenn | nobody here but us transhumanists | 16:20 |
| fenn | oh, i know who you are | 16:21 |
| kragen | archels: whatever kind of data you store with a laser printer is reduced to binary data on paper | 16:22 |
| kanzure | hmm wifi interface using human limbs sounds like the start to an interesting prank on someone | 16:22 |
| kanzure | *interference | 16:23 |
| kragen | I designed a 6×3½ pixel font that is moderately readable — 21 pixels per letter, on average | 16:23 |
| * nmz787_i just started thinking of a human antenna 'no little brother, you need to stand on your head or the internet cartoon won't stream fast enough' | 16:23 | |
| kragen | which is about what QR codes get, really | 16:23 |
| kanzure | qr codes get terrible wifi reception, yeah | 16:24 |
| fenn | "The algorithm they created in their research classifies gestures according to the size and timing of the peaks. The technique works at distances of “up to one [foot]” and claims a 91 per cent accuracy." | 16:24 |
| kragen | oh hush | 16:24 |
| fenn | 91 percent is not great but presumably it could learn and improve with time | 16:24 |
| RedMEdic | Im a noob and I was wondering what the best textbook/sources on genetic engineering are | 16:24 |
| kragen | how many gestures? | 16:24 |
| fenn | i didnt read the paper | 16:24 |
| kragen | archels: although QR codes are probably more resistant to failure | 16:24 |
| kanzure | RedMEdic: sambrook's lab manual is pretty okay | 16:24 |
| fenn | .title http://arxiv.org/abs/1411.5394 | 16:25 |
| yoleaux | [1411.5394] Wi-Fi Gesture Recognition on Existing Devices | 16:25 |
| kragen | 91% accuracy on distinguishing two gestures is less impressive than if it's 16 | 16:25 |
| fenn | "four gestures" :( | 16:25 |
| kragen | four | 16:25 |
| fenn | i guess it's only using one dimension | 16:25 |
| kragen | yeah | 16:25 |
| fenn | 802.11n would have higher dimensionality | 16:26 |
| kragen | my mom has higher dimensionality | 16:26 |
| fenn | does she smoke DMT | 16:26 |
| fenn | don't feel pressured to answer | 16:26 |
| kragen | no, she makes it herself | 16:26 |
| kragen | in her very own personal brain | 16:26 |
| RedMEdic | kanzure: thanks Ill check it out | 16:26 |
| kanzure | "Comparative analyses of evolutionary rates reveal different pathways to encephalization in bats, carnivorans, and primates" | 16:28 |
| kanzure | google scholar has a link to http://lib.gen.in/2ebbdfdf98191987b762ac50181cd4b3.pdf for this paper but it 404s | 16:29 |
| kanzure | i suspect that lib.gen.in is libgen | 16:29 |
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| fenn | that book is pretty expensive | 16:30 |
| fenn | $150 used $250 new | 16:31 |
| kanzure | "Results demonstrate that a principal focus on interpreting relative brain size evolution as selection on neuronal capacity confounds the effects of body mass changes, thereby hiding important aspects that may contribute to explaining animal diversity." | 16:31 |
| kanzure | did this really need a paper? | 16:31 |
| kanzure | "However, comparative neurological studies demonstrate that the human brain does not contain any structures that are distinctly unique to humans. Rather, the brain has undergone expansion of pre-existing structures that have re-wired their connectivity (Mantini and Corbetta, 2013; Smaers and Soligo, 2013), leading to the creation of novel network architectures in the brain. Given this morphological conservatism, the distinctive features ... | 16:32 |
| kanzure | ... of the human brain are likely to involve the elaboration of pre-existing functions to facilitate increased behavioral complexity." | 16:32 |
| kanzure | ( from http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4010745/ ) | 16:32 |
| fenn | maniatis was the bio lab manual/protocol cookbook i had | 16:34 |
| fenn | it was pretty dry | 16:35 |
| fenn | hehe "genetics for dummies" | 16:36 |
| kanzure | hmm this paper argues that human cognition is particularly unique because learned tasks can be dumped into memory, allowing "executive function" to process other details not related to task execution | 16:38 |
| kanzure | they should have called this the drooling moron hypothesis | 16:38 |
| kanzure | a first order dismissal could be something like "monkeys have memory too, you know" | 16:39 |
| ebowden | Where on earth was this paper published? | 16:39 |
| kanzure | Front Neurosci. 2014; 8: 90. | 16:40 |
| ebowden | Are there any published criticisms of it? | 16:41 |
| kanzure | "Plausibly, then, the adoption of bipedalism in proto-humans posed a strong selective advantage for individuals with brains capable of using their full processing power to learn bipedalism, but that were also able to delegate the basic tasks of walking and running to “lower” neural centers, freeing up the higher segments for detecting unpredictable opportunities and challenges (be they related to predators, food, or social cues), and ... | 16:41 |
| kanzure | ... rapidly responding to that information." | 16:41 |
| ebowden | ... | 16:42 |
| fenn | well do you see any other bipedal organisms walking around | 16:42 |
| kanzure | meerkats? | 16:42 |
| fenn | walking being the operative word | 16:43 |
| ebowden | Birds? | 16:43 |
| kanzure | they sort of hop | 16:43 |
| fenn | birds is ok, and there's some interesting things about their brains | 16:43 |
| fenn | seth robertson used some kind of balancing test as a cognitive metric | 16:45 |
| kanzure | i don't remember being graded but i may have failed my eurythmy classes | 16:46 |
| fenn | you probably failed gymnastics too | 16:48 |
| kanzure | that school didn't have gymnastics | 16:49 |
| kanzure | but we had hikes through the forest at least once a week | 16:49 |
| fenn | i guess humans got big brains and ostriches didn't because we had an aquatic/fishy diet with lots of omega-3 fats | 16:50 |
| kanzure | although it may have been in a circle and i just never noticed | 16:50 |
| fenn | flamingos though.. | 16:50 |
| kanzure | "Despite their connectivity with each other, the cerebral cortex and cerebellum are organized into quite different motifs of internal connectivity (Ito, 2006). For example, the cerebral cortex is a thin, multi-layered sheet with massive inter-connectivity across layers and regions (George and Hawkins, 2009), whereas the cerebellum consists of a network of simple cellular motifs, robustly repeated across the entire structure (Ramnani, ... | 16:50 |
| kanzure | ... 2006; D'Angelo and Casali, 2012). The structure of these motifs accords well with the notion that the cerebral cortex is primarily engaged early in unsupervised learning (when it is advantageous to respond flexibly to a novel stimulus) (Doya, 2000), yet decreases its activity over the course of learning, which may be due to increased neuronal efficiency (Ashby et al., 2007). In addition, it is also now clear that the cerebellum is ... | 16:50 |
| kanzure | ... important for the execution of automatized behaviors (Lang and Bastian, 2002; Balsters and Ramnani, 2011)." | 16:50 |
| kanzure | "Given the efficient neuronal architecture of the cerebellar cortex, we propose that the cerebellum plays a prominent role in the execution of learned behaviors, effectively liberating the more flexible architecture of the cortex to process novel behavioral challenges (Figure (Figure1).1). Importantly, this mechanism can be mapped onto a functional corticocerebellar unit of the brain (Figure (Figure1)1) which, depending on which ... | 16:51 |
| kanzure | ... neural and cerebellar regions are involved in the learning process, can effectively allow learning and automatization of motor, as well as cognitive and affective behavioral patterns (Graybiel, 1997, 2008; Hertel and Brozovich, 2010)." | 16:51 |
| fenn | my eyes! | 16:52 |
| fenn | are they citing jef hawkins? | 16:52 |
| kanzure | seems like it: George D., Hawkins J. (2009). Towards a mathematical theory of cortical micro-circuits. PLoS Comput. Biol. 5:e1000532 10.1371/journal.pcbi.1000532 | 16:53 |
| kanzure | so their argument is that "monkeys don't walk" is an explanation for the other differences between monkey and human brain function? | 16:54 |
| fenn | er, but don't monkeys also have cerebella? | 16:55 |
| kanzure | s/don't/can't (for some definition of can't that allows for monkeys to attempt to walk for a while) | 16:55 |
| kanzure | right... so something like "their are minor parameter differences between human and monkey brains that allow for better 'automatizing' that accounts for the major differences in brain function"? meh | 16:56 |
| fenn | i think this explains the difference much better: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_animals_by_number_of_neurons#Cerebral_cortex | 16:57 |
| kanzure | if there is simply lower bandwidth for this 'automatizing' mechanism then it should turn out that monkeys just learn and 'automatize' dramatically more slowly such that learning anything becomes impractical | 16:57 |
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| fenn | a minor genotype parameter difference results in a huge quantitative phenotype difference | 16:58 |
| kanzure | if there is almost /no/ bandwidth for such 'automatizing' then i wouldn't know how to explain monkey brain similarities to human | 16:58 |
| kanzure | yeah but then why wouldn't that genotype parameter have already been selected for in monkeys | 16:58 |
| fenn | because monkeys live in trees and don't eat fish | 16:58 |
| fenn | they can't afford it, essentially | 16:59 |
| ebowden | Damn do humans have a lot of cerebral cortex. | 16:59 |
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| fenn | why aren't hippopotamuses all super-geniuses? | 17:03 |
| fenn | brain to body-mass ratio 1:2789 | 17:03 |
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| fenn | vs human 1:40 | 17:05 |
| ebowden | I wonder how many neurons they have in their cerebral cortexes. | 17:07 |
| chris_99 | heh, maybe they are super-geniuses, and they're too busy contemplating the meaning of life, the universe and everything, for us to notice | 17:07 |
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| ebowden | LOL | 17:07 |
| fenn | no they are just big angry mice | 17:07 |
| fenn | "ungulates" whatever that is | 17:08 |
| kanzure | "On a genetic level, we expect that changes in delegation ability should be mirrored by disproportionate alterations in both coding and non-coding genetic activity in the brain (Mattick and Mehler, 2008), particularly in the cortical, cerebellar and basal ganglia circuitry that is likely to be important for the delegation of behavior to automaticity (Figure (Figure1).1). Although studies on the genetic basis of human behavior are in ... | 17:08 |
| kanzure | ... their infancy, early results on the neural distribution of non-coding regions in the genome support this general notion (Mattick and Mehler, 2008)." | 17:08 |
| ebowden | Fenn, how many neurons do hippopotamus have in their cerebral cortexes? | 17:10 |
| fenn | did you mean: hippocampus? | 17:12 |
| fenn | paperbot: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/24474726 | 17:12 |
| paperbot | http://libgen.org/scimag/get.php?doi=10.1002%2Far.22875 | 17:13 |
| kanzure | .title http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/24474726 | 17:13 |
| yoleaux | The cerebral cortex of the pygmy hippopotamus, Hexaprotodon liberie... - PubMed - NCBI | 17:13 |
| fenn | Hexaprotodon liberiensis | 17:13 |
| fenn | nevermind | 17:14 |
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| fenn | interesting "H. liberiensis shares one feature exclusively with cetaceans (the lack of layer IV across the entire cerebral cortex)" | 17:14 |
| fenn | i didn't know this about whales | 17:15 |
| kanzure | if it really is just number of monkey neurons then let's give them a particular allele | 17:15 |
| chris_99 | i bet a pygmy hippo would make a bad ass guard 'dog' | 17:15 |
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| kanzure | you would need a moat | 17:18 |
| fenn | ebowden: sorry dude, no access | 17:19 |
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| kanzure | why is it more likely that it is number of neurons and not some particular cognitive control related circuits | 17:19 |
| fenn | because we only know of biological circuits made from neurons | 17:20 |
| fenn | genetic circuits don't scale well | 17:21 |
| kanzure | also, surely someone has published a paper elaborating an idea like "the number of neurons in the human brain is directly responsile for human brain abilities" | 17:21 |
| kanzure | huh? | 17:21 |
| fenn | i would hope so | 17:21 |
| kanzure | i mean why are you quicker to prescribe number of neurons to unique human abilities rather than neural circuits | 17:21 |
| fenn | i have no idea what a neural circuit is actually | 17:22 |
| fenn | is that a thing? | 17:22 |
| kanzure | there are these loops in the brain between "regions" and "clusters" | 17:22 |
| kanzure | visually distinguished by long-range projection neurons | 17:22 |
| fenn | are "regions" connected by long range projections also? | 17:23 |
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| kanzure | "regions" and "clusters" are probably the same thing :| | 17:24 |
| kanzure | see page 3 figure 3 http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/neuro/randall-oreilly/Towards%20an%20executive%20without%20a%20homunculus:%20computational%20models%20of%20the%20prefrontal%20cortex%20basal%20ganglia%20system.pdf | 17:24 |
| fenn | heh "go vs nogo" is a big simplistic | 17:26 |
| kanzure | terrible name | 17:26 |
| fenn | all the agony and ecstasy of experience | 17:26 |
| fenn | um, so that diagram is "regions"? | 17:27 |
| kanzure | hmm i should find a good generic overview of wtf neural circuits are | 17:27 |
| fenn | because that diagram contains lots of different cell types | 17:28 |
| kanzure | so.. "regions" usually refer to this pile of junk: http://www.dhushara.com/paradoxhtm/brain/brainps.jpg | 17:28 |
| fenn | that "pile of junk" is bad because it slices up the cortex into parts but leaves other regions whole, as if they're equivalent | 17:29 |
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| kanzure | to complicate things even further for you, people have done fMRI studies of humans blowing snot bubbles to identify "functional regions" implicated in different actions or behaviors: | 17:30 |
| kanzure | http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/neuro/Functional%20specialization%20and%20flexibility%20in%20human%20association%20cortex%20-%202014.pdf | 17:30 |
| fenn | so what you're saying is nobody can agree on what the term "regions" means | 17:31 |
| kanzure | (see figures on page 6, 7, 9) | 17:31 |
| kanzure | i think there is broad consensus that regions refers to the historical neuroanatomy names like you would find in grey's anatomy | 17:31 |
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| kanzure | gray's anatomy | 17:31 |
| fenn | that circos diagram is impossible to draw any conclusions from | 17:32 |
| fenn | wait, "go/nogo" is a task? | 17:33 |
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| kanzure | yeah it's not what you think heh | 17:33 |
| kanzure | terrible name like i said | 17:34 |
| fenn | why does it say D1 and D2 then | 17:34 |
| kanzure | a better alternative to the last link is possibly http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/neuro/The%20evolution%20of%20distributed%20association%20networks%20in%20the%20human%20brain.pdf | 17:34 |
| kanzure | d1/d2 is dopamine receptor naming | 17:34 |
| fenn | yes i know that much, but, uh, this fMRI uses "Go/NoGo" as a cognitive task | 17:35 |
| kanzure | in this last link, here is a definition of "macrocircuit": "Canonical circuit (canonical macrocircuit): a network of brain areas characterized by dense local connectivity between areas and a serial, hierarchical flow of information across areas. Such networks link incoming sensory information to the development of a motor response or action." | 17:35 |
| fenn | i am suddenly reminded of the futility of ontologies in biology | 17:36 |
| kanzure | right, they should get rid of ontologies about brain regions | 17:36 |
| kanzure | oh they cite this thing which looks useful, "Imaging human connectomes at the macroscale" | 17:37 |
| kanzure | paperbot: http://www.nature.com/nmeth/journal/v10/n6/abs/nmeth.2482.html | 17:37 |
| paperbot | http://libgen.org/scimag/get.php?doi=10.1038%2Fnmeth.2482 | 17:37 |
| fenn | it's probably just tensor diffusion imaging | 17:37 |
| fenn | .title | 17:37 |
| fenn | .title http://www.nature.com/nmeth/journal/v10/n6/abs/nmeth.2482.html | 17:37 |
| yoleaux | Imaging human connectomes at the macroscale : Nature Methods : Nature Publishing Group | 17:37 |
| fenn | no yoleaux i want you to summarize the paper for me | 17:37 |
| yoleaux | fenn: Sorry, that command (.title) took too long to process. | 17:37 |
| kanzure | here: http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/neuro/Imaging%20human%20connectomes%20at%20the%20macroscale.pdf | 17:38 |
| fenn | no kanzure i want you to summarize the paper for me | 17:38 |
| kanzure | page 10 figure 3 | 17:39 |
| kanzure | hmm there's no list of circuits in this paper. | 17:39 |
| fenn | you know i am going to have to sort all this crap | 17:39 |
| kanzure | no we're still trying to find you a good definition of neural circuit | 17:39 |
| kanzure | and then you can answer my question | 17:39 |
| kanzure | so most of this can be thrown out once an adequate definition or diagram or something is found | 17:40 |
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| fenn | looks pretty messy | 17:41 |
| RedMEdic | http://higheredbcs.wiley.com/legacy/college/tortora/0470565101/hearthis_ill/pap13e_ch12_illustr_audio_mp3_am/simulations/figures/neural_circuits.jpg | 17:42 |
| RedMEdic | like this? | 17:42 |
| kanzure | "Direct evidence for neuronal connections in human brain tissue is very rare and difficult to obtain, so there is high value in any existing reports of neuroanatomical studies conducted in post-mortem human brain tissue." | 17:42 |
| kanzure | http://mitraweb1.cshl.edu:8080/BrainArchitecture/pages/publications.faces | 17:42 |
| kanzure | wtf? | 17:42 |
| kanzure | RedMEdic: that's actually too low-level | 17:42 |
| kanzure | that looks like a microcircuit | 17:42 |
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| kanzure | "basal ganglia macrocircuits" http://garcia.rutgers.edu/Reprints.pdfs/Tepper_Chapter1.preprint.pdf | 17:44 |
| kanzure | page 2 figure 1 | 17:44 |
| kanzure | although it's not an overview or general review of macrocircuits or neural circuits... hrm. | 17:44 |
| fenn | kanzure: i think no matter what you're going to have to apply a fuzzy statistical definition that is unsatisfying | 17:45 |
| fenn | like what is "a rich person" there's no real clear boundary | 17:45 |
| kanzure | there are specific tracts of brain matter that require only visual inspection to identify (well, and knowledge of wtf everyone else called that particular projection) | 17:45 |
| kanzure | okay here you go: | 17:48 |
| kanzure | http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/neuro/Parallel%20organization%20of%20functionally%20segregated%20circuits%20linking%20basal%20ganglia%20and%20cortex.pdf | 17:48 |
| fenn | i meant to steal this book or at least read it http://mitpress.mit.edu/books/networks-brain | 17:49 |
| fenn | mostly because the author ran my robotics group in college | 17:50 |
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| fenn | "faculty sponsor" | 17:50 |
| kanzure | superkuh: do you have any good ways to explain macrocircuits in human brains? | 17:51 |
| kanzure | archels: or you? | 17:51 |
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| fenn | kanzure: this sounds like the sort of lie they tell students in order to have an easy to explain metaphor | 17:51 |
| fenn | like s and p orbitals in chemistry | 17:52 |
| kanzure | when they say circuits they don't really mean circuits | 17:52 |
| RedMEdic | So what do they mean? | 17:54 |
| kanzure | highly conserved pathways | 17:55 |
| fenn | conserved across humans at least | 17:55 |
| kanzure | turns out monkeys too | 17:55 |
| kanzure | for example, auditory cortex stuff always needs to go somewhere | 17:56 |
| fenn | ok can i delete these papers now | 17:56 |
| kanzure | i have not seen any reports of redundant auditory cortexes that just eat data | 17:56 |
| kanzure | yes | 17:56 |
| kanzure | although i would still like some postulation regarding whether or not you still think number of neurons is a better explanation than macrocircuits | 17:56 |
| fenn | a brain region that doesn't feed-back or feed-elsewhere would be useless | 17:56 |
| kanzure | yes but it doesn't just feedforward into everything else | 17:57 |
| kanzure | holy diagram batman http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3243081/bin/fnana-05-00065-g001.jpg | 17:58 |
| kanzure | (this is from <http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3243081/>) | 17:58 |
| kanzure | their visualization is.. interesting. | 17:59 |
| kanzure | http://www.frontiersin.org/files/cognitiveconsilience/index.html | 17:59 |
| RedMEdic | Is it true that there are more conections running from the bottom of the brain up than the other way? | 18:00 |
| fenn | "the bottom" | 18:02 |
| fenn | so "mammilary body" wasn't enough for you, pervert | 18:03 |
| RedMEdic | R Complex is what I mean | 18:03 |
| fenn | oh i thought you were only talking about in the cortex | 18:05 |
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| fenn | "basketry and wilderness survival are nice, but what the scouts really need is a merit badge for hacking" | 18:10 |
| chris_99 | heh | 18:12 |
| RedMEdic | Is whoever said that arguing that scouts need to learn computers because thats the only way they will ever get a job | 18:12 |
| RedMEdic | or that they need to learn hacking to raise up a new generation of cyberwarriors to fight the evil chinese who hate our freedoms? | 18:12 |
| chris_99 | i rather like the story about the radioactive boy scout, he got his radioactive badge i think | 18:13 |
| fenn | RedMEdic: the story you heard is probably about how there are more feedback pathways in the cortex's sensory processing areas | 18:13 |
| fenn | i don't see why the number of connections to the basal ganglia is important | 18:13 |
| RedMEdic | The guy was making the argument that because there were more connections running from the "lower" parts of the brain to the "higher" ones | 18:14 |
| RedMEdic | that showed that people were more under the influence of their more base and emotional impulses | 18:14 |
| kanzure | of course this author would think it's about bipedalism, he's a parkinson's researcher | 18:14 |
| RedMEdic | than their higher more rational ones | 18:14 |
| kanzure | "Impaired cognitive control in Parkinson’s disease patients with freezing of gait in response to cognitive load" | 18:14 |
| RedMEdic | It sounded like bullshit, drawing that kind of conclusion based on that | 18:15 |
| kanzure | what is the difference between an "emotional impulse" and any other kind of "impulse"? | 18:16 |
| RedMEdic | Thats what was bugging me, I was just wondering if the science he based it on was even legit to begin with | 18:17 |
| fenn | the other proposed scouting badges were "texting >100wpm, SEO, reality television show pitching, existential absurdism, feminism (in macaroni decorated posters), and sarcasm" | 18:18 |
| fenn | i'm not sure what the point of the article was | 18:18 |
| kanzure | *black sarcasm | 18:19 |
| RedMEdic | Thats the Onion | 18:19 |
| RedMEdic | please tell me thats the onion | 18:19 |
| fenn | it's John Kelly's Washington, a shitpost column in the washington post | 18:19 |
| RedMEdic | The Washington Post is making clickbait now | 18:21 |
| RedMEdic | journalism is dead | 18:21 |
| fenn | is it clickbait if it's in the printed edition | 18:21 |
| RedMEdic | yes | 18:22 |
| RedMEdic | because no one reads printed newspapers anymore | 18:22 |
| fenn | i would have supported writing a column about how scouts need to learn computer skills because their entire fucking economy will be gone by the time they grow up | 18:22 |
| fenn | but the writer sort of fell asleep and finished the article on the train i guess | 18:23 |
| kanzure | "These studies also showed that the human brain is not exceptional in its cellular composition, as it was found to contain as many neuronal and non-neuronal cells as would be expected of a primate brain of its size. Additionally, the so-called overdeveloped human cerebral cortex holds only 19% of all brain neurons, a fraction that is similar to that found in other mammals. In what regards absolute numbers of neurons, however, the human ... | 18:23 |
| kanzure | ... brain does have two advantages compared to other mammalian brains: compared to rodents, and probably to whales and elephants as well, it is built according to the very economical, space-saving scaling rules that apply to other primates; and, among economically built primate brains, it is the largest, hence containing the most neurons. These findings argue in favor of a view of cognitive abilities that is centered on absolute numbers ... | 18:23 |
| kanzure | ... of neurons, rather than on body size or encephalization, and call for a re-examination of several concepts related to the exceptionality of the human brain." | 18:23 |
| kanzure | (from <http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2776484/>) | 18:23 |
| fenn | so birds and bees with equivalently sized brains would be super-duper-intelligent? | 18:24 |
| RedMEdic | Reminds me of something I read awhile ago, that it was a couple thousand years after humans developed the brain size they do and we started seeing things like art and decorative jewelry ect | 18:25 |
| RedMEdic | and a few thousand years after that for agriculture and civilization to start appearing | 18:25 |
| RedMEdic | Whatever caused the massive jump in human intelligence it was definitely more than just brain size | 18:25 |
| kanzure | fenn: i don't know what you mean. similarly sized in number of neurons? neuron sizes? neuron mass? | 18:25 |
| kanzure | "brain size" is ambiguous | 18:26 |
| fenn | "economically built" | 18:26 |
| fenn | bees have only like 100,000 neurons but can solve puzzles, communicate, do math, learn english, etc | 18:26 |
| fenn | ok they can read some words i think :P | 18:26 |
| fenn | very economical. such intelligence. wow. | 18:27 |
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| kanzure | er i believe it has been shown that even very tiny neural networks can do math | 18:27 |
| kanzure | which is not very interesting | 18:27 |
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| fenn | anyway birds and bees are smarter than you'd expect based on brain mass, probably because they have selection pressure against being too massive because they fly | 18:28 |
| fenn | what is "economical" then, saving on brain mass? saving on energy use? | 18:30 |
| kanzure | "space-saving" | 18:30 |
| fenn | space is proportional to mass; all brains are mostly water and fat | 18:32 |
| kanzure | "Orangutan fish eating, primate aquatic fauna eating, and their implications for the origins of ancestral hominin fish eating" | 18:32 |
| fenn | i dont see any abstract | 18:34 |
| kanzure | http://pastebin.com/raw.php?i=xNQF7ZGw | 18:35 |
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| kanzure | "Orangutan and primate findings are generally consistent with Stewart's (2010) reconstruction of the origins of ancestral hominin fish eating, but suggest that it, and tool-assisted fish catching, were possible much earlier" | 18:36 |
| kanzure | (from another abstract) "Despite great diversity across mammals in the number of cortical neurons and the cognitive functions they support, the fundamental process which populates the cerebral cortex with neurons changes only subtly from the smallest rodents to the largest primates. ... We gathered data on the growing and mature cortex to build a computational model of neurogenesis. The model recapitulates how dynamics, known to vary ... | 18:36 |
| kanzure | ... across species and across the cortex, sculpt the basic landscape of the embryonic cortex. Features of the cortex long thought to be the result of special selection are revealed as the necessary product of a conserved mechanism." | 18:36 |
| fenn | the paper http://www.researchgate.net/profile/Anne_Russon/publication/264053544_Orangutan_fish_eating_primate_aquatic_fauna_eating_and_their_implications_for_the_origins_of_ancestral_hominin_fish_eating/links/54118f140cf264cee28b3fcd | 18:36 |
| chris_99 | http://www.nature.com/news/nature-makes-all-articles-free-to-view-1.16460 | 18:40 |
| chris_99 | alas not downloadable | 18:41 |
| kanzure | "As a result, the volume of gray matter expressed as a percentage of total brain volume is about the same for all anthropoid primates." | 18:42 |
| kanzure | "The relative white matter volume, on the other hand, increases with brain size, from 9% in pygmy marmosets (Cebuella pygmaea) to about 35% in humans, the highest value in primates (Hofman, 1989). " | 18:43 |
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| kanzure | "Recent studies in primates have shown that the number of neurons underneath a unit area of cortical surface is not constant and varies linearly with neuronal density, a parameter that is neither related to cortical size nor to the total number of neurons (Herculano-Houzel et al., 2008; Wang et al., 2008; Herculano-Houzel, 2009). These studies indicate that the cortical column varies both in size and number of neurons, which is in ... | 18:48 |
| kanzure | ... accordance with predictions based on computational models (Hofman, 1985b). Indeed, comparative morphological differences between cortical areas and species cast doubt on the notion of a universal cortical module or minicolumn (DeFelipe et al., 2002)." | 18:48 |
| kanzure | (from <http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3973910/>) | 18:48 |
| fenn | taking bets on how long until publishers try to switch all content to DRM-protected formats | 18:54 |
| kanzure | "Comparative work suggests that the human prefrontal cortex differs from that of closely related primate species less in relative size than it does in organization. Specific reorganizational events in neural circuitry may have taken place either as a consequence of adjusting to increases in size or as adaptive responses to specific selection pressures. Living in complex environments has been recognized as a considerable factor in the ... | 18:54 |
| kanzure | ... evolution of primate cognition. Normal frontal lobe development and function are also compromised in several neurological and psychiatric disorders. A phylogenetically recent reorganization of frontal cortical circuitry may have been critical to the emergence of human-specific executive and social-emotional functions, and developmental pathology in these same systems underlies many psychiatric and neurological disorders, including ... | 18:54 |
| kanzure | ... autism and schizophrenia." | 18:54 |
| kanzure | err. | 18:55 |
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| kanzure | i forgot about the "woven sheets" study that also used diffusion tensor imaging http://people.psych.cornell.edu/~jec7/pcd%202012-13%20pubs/weedensci.pdf | 18:58 |
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| fenn | they just brush off the 4:1 ratio of human cortical neurons to ape cortical neurons like it's no big deal | 18:59 |
| kanzure | "We have found that the fiber pathways of the forebrain are organized as a highly curved 3D grid derived from the principal axes of development. This structure has a natural interpretation. By the Frobenius theorem, any three families of curves in 3D mutually cross in sheets if and only if they represent the gradients of three corresponding scalar functions (26, 27). Accordingly, we hypothesize that the pathways of the brain follow a ... | 18:59 |
| kanzure | ... base-plan established by the three chemotactic gradients of early embryogenesis (30). Thus, the pathways of the mature brain presents an image of these three primordial gradients, plastically deformed by development." | 18:59 |
| kanzure | yeah i guess. hrm. | 19:01 |
| fenn | this is standard developmental biology | 19:01 |
| fenn | the last quote | 19:02 |
| kanzure | right | 19:02 |
| kanzure | well yes, plans from embryogenesis impact future growth, sure, but i think the conservation of a 3d grid in "fiber pathways" is not a natural conclusion | 19:04 |
| fenn | i probably got this from you http://fennetic.net/irc/hox_genes_as_turing_patterns_for_development_of_segments.jpg | 19:04 |
| kanzure | nope i don't remember this one. i'm sure i have talked about hox genes with you, though. | 19:04 |
| fenn | "the finger bones follow a base-plan established by chemotactic gradients of early embryogenesis" | 19:05 |
| kanzure | "3d grid" yo | 19:06 |
| fenn | but, frobenius! | 19:08 |
| kanzure | i really don't see anyone championing number of neurons. weird. | 19:08 |
| fenn | probably because it was associated with racist/eugenics stuff in the 19th century | 19:09 |
| kanzure | maybe because there's some sort of bias against an attraction to large numbers because they are large ("science is more subtle than that!") | 19:09 |
| fenn | .wik phrenology | 19:09 |
| yoleaux | "Phrenology (from Greek: φρήν, phrēn, "mind"; and λόγος, logos, "knowledge") is a pseudoscience primarily focused on measurements of the human skull, based on the concept that the brain is the organ of the mind, and that certain brain areas have localized, specific functions or modules." — http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phrenology | 19:09 |
| kanzure | wait... what? | 19:09 |
| kanzure | oh, skull | 19:09 |
| kanzure | yes i remember this one | 19:10 |
| kanzure | modifying a few monkey genes is an easy way to test this hypothesis of yours | 19:11 |
| kanzure | i suppose there may be other genetic changes required for certain cell specializations to handle longer distances (increased myelination, for example) and other differences that come with larger neuron populations... | 19:12 |
| kanzure | so increasing the number of monkey or gorilla neurons may not be a good experiment | 19:12 |
| fenn | i don't know what genes control cortex size or skull size | 19:14 |
| fenn | also, haven't you seen "planet of the apes"!! | 19:14 |
| fenn | it would be a good experiment; it would tell you if number of neurons is the only difference or not | 19:16 |
| fenn | i'd guess not fwiw | 19:17 |
| fenn | something about glial cells | 19:17 |
| kanzure | why would you guess not? | 19:17 |
| kanzure | hmm okay | 19:17 |
| kanzure | well, add in some glial cell genes maybe | 19:17 |
| fenn | that mouse study with human glial cells | 19:17 |
| fenn | apes are close enough that they probably have similar myelin | 19:18 |
| fenn | anyway it would be unsatisfying because apes are so similar already it doesn't tell you much if you succeed | 19:19 |
| fenn | but you'd have a talking ape or whatever | 19:19 |
| fenn | or at least an ape that can do calculus | 19:19 |
| kanzure | another option is to do phylogeny/evolution genetics stuff | 19:19 |
| RedMEdic | Wait wait wait | 19:20 |
| fenn | please elaborate | 19:20 |
| RedMEdic | youre saying I can genetically engineer an ape to do calculus for me? | 19:20 |
| fenn | RedMEdic: of course not, that would be slavery | 19:20 |
| fenn | RedMEdic: use mathematica instead | 19:20 |
| kanzure | fenn: well, we have their genomes | 19:20 |
| fenn | or macsyma if you're a free software zealot | 19:20 |
| kanzure | so we can just do brain + genome analysis things first | 19:21 |
| kanzure | and then look at the set of different alleles | 19:21 |
| fenn | yeah i would love to do that, but the liberals won't let us... | 19:22 |
| RedMEdic | Thanks Obama | 19:22 |
| fenn | not obama | 19:22 |
| kanzure | what do you mean they wont let us do that? | 19:22 |
| kanzure | ncbi has the gene data go download it or something | 19:22 |
| fenn | um, scientists are afraid to talk about the relationship between genetics and intelligence, and funding for it has been weak because of this | 19:22 |
| kanzure | http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/neuro/Genetic%20basis%20of%20human%20brain%20evolution.pdf | 19:22 |
| kanzure | oh whatever, who cares about intelligence | 19:23 |
| kanzure | i just want to see the differences | 19:23 |
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| fenn | what would you look at exactly | 19:25 |
| fenn | what phenotypic characteristics | 19:25 |
| fenn | (since you can't use intelligence tests) | 19:26 |
| fenn | there must be thousands of genes to sort through | 19:27 |
| kanzure | iirc it's like <200 genes | 19:28 |
| fenn | for what | 19:28 |
| kanzure | that seem to be unique to human brain stuff | 19:28 |
| kanzure | er, out of the human genome, i don't mean compared to non-human brains | 19:29 |
| kanzure | "Diversity of microRNAs in human and chimpanzee brain" no that wasn't the paper... hrm. i feel like it was a venter paper for some reason. | 19:29 |
| fenn | i mean there are thousands of genes that control brain development and function | 19:30 |
| kanzure | here is a venter paper "3,400 new expressed sequence tags identify diversity of transcripts in human brain" | 19:30 |
| kanzure | and "Chromosomal distribution of 320 genes from a brain cDNA library" | 19:30 |
| fenn | unique to humans doesn't necessarily mean "what makes humans qualitatively different" | 19:30 |
| kanzure | i know | 19:30 |
| kanzure | you wanted to know what i would look at | 19:31 |
| kanzure | those are the genes that i would look at | 19:31 |
| fenn | ok | 19:31 |
| kanzure | i would also factor out anything from KEBB about cell metabolism (even though cell metabolism is important) | 19:31 |
| fenn | on the other side of the equation, what phenotypic characteristics would you correlate the gene alleles with? | 19:31 |
| kanzure | certain brain genes (like microcephelin) already have known correlations with brain size (for example) | 19:32 |
| fenn | meh | 19:32 |
| fenn | that's a pathology | 19:32 |
| kanzure | hmm someone did transcriptome sampling from a monkey brain "Transcriptional architecture of the primate neocortex" | 19:33 |
| kanzure | oh look "Human-specific transcriptional networks in the brain" | 19:33 |
| kanzure | http://www.einstein.yu.edu/uploadedFiles/departments/neurology/Divisions/Child_Neurology/Child_Neurology_References/Language/Geschsind%20D%20Human-specificathways%20in%20the%20brain%202012.pdf | 19:34 |
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| fenn | it's too bad we killed off everything not-quite-human | 19:36 |
| kanzure | "However, there are some remarkable differences between the gene coexpression connectivity tree and the species tree: the relative distance of human genes to chimpanzee and macaque genes is much larger in the connectivity tree (Figure 7D), indicating a faster evolution of gene connectivity, and hence gene regulation, in the human brain. Previously, we have found that connectivity is a more sensitive measure of evolutionary divergence ... | 19:38 |
| kanzure | ... than gene expression (Miller et al., 2010; Oldham et al., 2006). Therefore, by using new technology and multiple primate species, we have shown a rapidly evolving mechanism for the coordination of gene expression patterns in the human brain." | 19:38 |
| kanzure | well that sucks | 19:42 |
| fenn | spaghettiball | 19:42 |
| fenn | (figure 3) | 19:42 |
| kanzure | seems likely that neuron count may not be sufficient | 19:43 |
| fenn | i agree only because of the hard-coded human language syntax rules | 19:44 |
| fenn | pointing at stuff to teach is another thing | 19:44 |
| fenn | is music important though? i don't think so | 19:45 |
| fenn | it's an apparently random sexually selected trait | 19:45 |
| fenn | nevertheless apes don't have music | 19:46 |
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| kanzure | uplifting a gorilla might be simpler than uplifting your laptop | 19:48 |
| fenn | sure, a gorilla has many orders of magnitude more processing power | 19:49 |
| fenn | also it has efficient fault-tolerant algorithms and a good controller-embodiment interface | 19:51 |
| fenn | but what would be the point | 19:51 |
| kanzure | knowing the differences would give insight into the missing ingredients into something approximating general intelligence | 19:52 |
| kanzure | "In the days of prehistory, 50,000 BC, Savage was a caveman named Vandar Adg, leader of the Cro-Magnon Blood Tribe. He was bathed in the radiation of a mysterious meteorite, which gave him incredible intellect and immortality. According to Lex Luthor, there may be evidence to suggest that Savage was the first cannibal on record. Though the Calculator took this to be a joke, Luthor was apparently serious, and Savage has not shown much ... | 19:59 |
| kanzure | ... regard for human life." | 19:59 |
| kanzure | wait, wrong universe | 20:00 |
| bbrittain | here to bitch about nature | 20:00 |
| bbrittain | http://www.nature.com/news/nature-makes-all-articles-free-to-view-1.16460 | 20:01 |
| bbrittain | .title | 20:01 |
| yoleaux | Nature makes all articles free to view : Nature News & Comment | 20:01 |
| kanzure | not downloadable, next plz | 20:01 |
| bbrittain | I hate them all | 20:01 |
| kanzure | bbrittain: which genes and which alleles do you think would be necessary to make an ape brain do what a human brain does? | 20:02 |
| bbrittain | holy shit. I have no clue | 20:02 |
| kanzure | this seems like something phylogenetic genome and transcriptome sequencing should help with | 20:02 |
| bbrittain | I don't really do human stuff... and brains are really complicated. | 20:02 |
| * bbrittain goes to the internets | 20:03 | |
| kanzure | also someone should do monkey brain embryogenesis transcriptomics stuff from different developmental stages and areas of brain matter | 20:04 |
| kanzure | since clearly doing that in humans would be punishable by stoning or something | 20:04 |
| bbrittain | "iirc it's like <200 genes" | 20:04 |
| kanzure | anyway those results would help determine which things to be looking at in the human genome | 20:04 |
| bbrittain | uhh.. let's just put those genes in an ape and see what happens | 20:05 |
| bbrittain | why haven't we done that yet? | 20:05 |
| kanzure | see http://www.einstein.yu.edu/uploadedFiles/departments/neurology/Divisions/Child_Neurology/Child_Neurology_References/Language/Geschsind%20D%20Human-specificathways%20in%20the%20brain%202012.pdf | 20:05 |
| bbrittain | I mean, improving our intelligence is the ultimate dream... this should be super high funding level stuff | 20:06 |
| * bbrittain is looking at paper | 20:06 | |
| kanzure | my motivation is that i am not sure why monkeys don't have human cognitive abilities | 20:08 |
| kanzure | and that if those reasons are known then they can maybe be translated into software things | 20:08 |
| bbrittain | I'm very skeptical of that. (oh look! my catchphrase) just because we have genes and what proteins they generate... | 20:09 |
| bbrittain | and then study all the interactions | 20:09 |
| kanzure | well you would look at the generated neuroanatomy obviously | 20:09 |
| bbrittain | we don't understand _why_ | 20:09 |
| bbrittain | and what sorta resolution to we get? | 20:09 |
| bbrittain | does the connectome tell the whole story? | 20:09 |
| kanzure | e.g. gorilla neuroanatomy when dumb vs ape neuroanatomy when discussing the finer points of cosmology with you | 20:09 |
| bbrittain | brains man. brains. | 20:09 |
| bbrittain | huh | 20:09 |
| bbrittain | that could be super cool | 20:10 |
| fenn | bbrittain: because mobs of englishmen would descend upon the labs with pitchforks, were such an abomination to be brought into this world | 20:10 |
| fenn | re "let's just put those genes in an ape" | 20:10 |
| bbrittain | I started writting something about just making knockouts in humans... then realized everyone would hate me | 20:11 |
| fenn | there are plenty of existing knockout humans to study | 20:11 |
| bbrittain | how much info do we get from them? | 20:11 |
| fenn | you just aren't allowed to slice them up | 20:11 |
| kanzure | i don't think knocking out individual human genes would be helpful | 20:11 |
| fenn | well you can do MRI, post-mortem (sometimes) | 20:12 |
| bbrittain | well, are you allowed to slice up a cosmology discussing ape? | 20:12 |
| fenn | good question, i'd say, given the sad state of interpreting law, yes | 20:12 |
| bbrittain | fuck laws. morally, I say no. | 20:12 |
| kanzure | uh you would slice up the one that isn't talking cosmology with you | 20:12 |
| kanzure | like pre-birth | 20:13 |
| fenn | you said "are you allowed" not "should you" | 20:13 |
| bbrittain | true | 20:13 |
| bbrittain | I was talking with some animal liberation front people last sunday... they would kill me if they saw this convo | 20:14 |
| fenn | probably not | 20:14 |
| kanzure | uplifting animal intelligences is something they should totally go for | 20:14 |
| bbrittain | I mean, they claim non-violence... | 20:14 |
| fenn | they just dont see much difference between a smart ape and a dumb ape | 20:14 |
| fenn | or an ape or a cow | 20:15 |
| bbrittain | but at some point it becomes nonsensical | 20:16 |
| kanzure | "it's just more computational power and more neurons" is a very appealing hypothesis because it involves doing almost no further work | 20:16 |
| fenn | "it" | 20:16 |
| kanzure | bbrittain: context is that some paper was arguing that monkeys are spending too much of their cognitive information processing abilities on not drowning in their own drool | 20:16 |
| fenn | "iq" | 20:16 |
| bbrittain | kanzure: that's one I'm still working on | 20:17 |
| kanzure | hm? | 20:17 |
| bbrittain | not drowning in my drool | 20:17 |
| fenn | i thought it meant walking (cerebellar tasks) | 20:17 |
| kanzure | yes "walking enabled some extra computational capacity that then got freed up to do other things" | 20:18 |
| fenn | (is swallowing actually one of those?) | 20:18 |
| bbrittain | that's awesome | 20:18 |
| kanzure | s/enabled/required | 20:18 |
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| kanzure | gorilla einstein is gonna approve so hard | 20:28 |
| fenn | http://modifiedediting.files.wordpress.com/2014/04/168589233.jpg orangutan einstein says hrmph | 20:33 |
| kanzure | gorilla einstein http://i.imgur.com/Cukoj5O.jpg | 20:45 |
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| kanzure | "Nature's internal costs of publishing run at £20,000–30,000 (US$31,000–47,000) per paper, an extremely high charge to load onto authors or funders rather than spread over subscribers." | 20:50 |
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| fenn | lol i'd love to see the cost breakdown for that | 20:58 |
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| kanzure | "Part of his new idea to create a tiny device that sequences tumor cells (data processed in cloud) then synthesizes DNA for infection into a tiny bioreactor where e.coli reside, turning the DNA into a small number of viruses (may also work by injecting DNA back into the tumor cells), then purifying burst cells so that only viruses come out the other side... could benefit from the Lee Cronin work on 3D printed reactionware (that's his ... | 21:01 |
| kanzure | ... term) that have the bioreactor preloaded and lined with useful chemicals" | 21:01 |
| kanzure | what | 21:01 |
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| fenn | e. coli is the wrong cloning vector for that mmkay | 21:03 |
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| fenn | i wonder what creationists think when (if) they see things like this http://fennetic.net/irc/brain_evolution.png | 21:21 |
| kanzure | have they figured out that they shouldn't expose you to the blinding radiation of television yet? | 21:22 |
| fenn | no | 21:22 |
| kanzure | do you need to be rescued? | 21:23 |
| fenn | possibly | 21:23 |
| * fenn reads about hypnotism | 21:25 | |
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