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| nmz787 | were y'all lookin for this? http://diyhpl.us/~nmz787/pdf/Comparative_analyses_of_evolutionary_rates_reveal_different_pathways_to_encephalization_in_bats_carnivorans_and_primates.pdf | 00:12 |
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| nmz787 | fenn: I think that sambrook book may actually be part of a shelf-wide set (I could be misremembering that) | 00:13 |
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| archels | kanzure: afaik, the main deficit in apes' brains compared to humans is their much smaller prefrontal cortex | 01:50 |
| archels | when are we launching the kickstarter to engineer superintelligent apes? | 01:52 |
| genehacker | aren't you a superintelligent ape? | 01:54 |
| archels | thanks, but that's too much honour | 01:58 |
| archels | also I wasn't engineered | 01:59 |
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| chris_99 | hmm, apparently the company i contacted that do pretty cheap microfluidic chips | 03:38 |
| chris_99 | also do custom made ones | 03:38 |
| genehacker | now if they would only do picoarrays.... | 03:46 |
| chris_99 | heh | 03:47 |
| chris_99 | Asking what size lithography process they use, seems a sensible question right? | 03:49 |
| genehacker | yah | 03:59 |
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| delinquentme | chris_99, i have a chip design I was looking for a price on | 04:41 |
| delinquentme | you mind sending it over? | 04:41 |
| chris_99 | winsense.co.th is the company | 04:42 |
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| kanzure | archels: afaik the size of the prefrontal cortex is not the only difference | 06:10 |
| kanzure | and this is what the experiment would be useful for determining (whether or not number of neurons is sufficient to make a monkey brain do what a human brain do) | 06:11 |
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| kanzure | .wik neanderthal genome | 06:23 |
| archels | well, it probably takes more than just dropping more neurons in there | 06:23 |
| kanzure | i was thinking there may be some large macrocircuit differences that allow for executive control or something | 06:24 |
| kanzure | although that sounds like a homunculus | 06:25 |
| kanzure | http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/neuro/randall-oreilly/Towards%20an%20executive%20without%20a%20homunculus:%20computational%20models%20of%20the%20prefrontal%20cortex%20basal%20ganglia%20system.pdf | 06:25 |
| kanzure | portia connectome is a thing we should do eventually | 06:28 |
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| kanzure | hello eudoxia | 06:42 |
| eudoxia | hey kanzure | 06:45 |
| eudoxia | kanzure: i found a little library that might make rewriting nanoengineer easier https://github.com/fogleman/pg | 06:55 |
| kanzure | "infect hiv-positive individuals with a less-deadly strain of hiv" http://www.rci.rutgers.edu/~piecze/Lancet.PDF | 06:55 |
| kanzure | eudoxia: honestly whenever i next put in a chunk of time on nanoengineer i will not be focusing on the gui at all, except for when i have to rip it off or delete it | 06:56 |
| kanzure | contrary opinion about the hiv-versus-hiv idea http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1169464/ | 06:57 |
| eudoxia | kanzure: well, there isn't much to NE other than the GUI, except OpenBabel integration | 06:57 |
| kanzure | right | 06:58 |
| kanzure | that's a good thing | 06:58 |
| kanzure | makes my job easier | 06:58 |
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| kanzure | "As it turns out, the answer was even more interesting: the elephant brain as a whole has 3 times the number of neurons of the human brain, 257 billion neurons against an average 86 billion in ours, BUT 98% of those neurons are located in the elephant cerebellum, which turns out to be a major outlier in the numeric relationship between numbers of neurons in the cerebral cortex and cerebellum. While other mammals (humans included) have ... | 07:31 |
| kanzure | ... about 4 neurons in the cerebellum to every neuron in the cerebral cortex, the elephant has 45 neurons in the cerebellum to every neuron in the cerebral cortex. All we can do for now is to speculate on the reason for this extraordinary number of neurons in the elephant cerebellum, and the most likely candidates right now is to me the fine sensorimotor control of the trunk, a 200-pound appendage that has amazingly fine sensory and ... | 07:31 |
| kanzure | ... motor capabilities, which are known to involve the cerebellum." | 07:31 |
| kanzure | "Despite the enormous number of neurons in the elephant cerebellum, its cerebral cortex, which is twice the size of ours, has only one third of the neurons in an average human cerebral cortex. Taken together, these results suggest that the limiting factor to cognitive abilities is not the number of neurons in the whole brain, but in the cerebral cortex (to which I would add, “provided that the cerebellum has enough neurons to shape ... | 07:31 |
| kanzure | ... activity in the cerebral cortex”)." | 07:31 |
| kanzure | from http://intelligence.org/2014/04/22/suzana-herculano-houzel/ | 07:31 |
| kanzure | http://scholar.google.com/scholar?as_ylo=2010&q=Suzana+Herculano-Houzel&hl=en&as_sdt=0,44 | 07:31 |
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| eudoxia | i'm more surprised by how the trunk masses 90 kilograms, i would have thought it would be something like 45kg | 07:47 |
| eudoxia | .wa 200lbs in kg | 07:48 |
| kanzure | wolfram is thinking really hard about your request | 07:49 |
| eudoxia | conversion is done by a 7d cellular automaton i'm sure | 07:50 |
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| eudoxia | .c 200lbs in kg | 07:53 |
| eudoxia | ugh | 07:54 |
| Qfwfq | 90.7kg | 07:54 |
| eudoxia | no .botsnack for you yoleaux | 07:54 |
| kanzure | i wonder if there are any disorders similar to microencephaly that are specifically caused by low absolute numbers of neurons in the cortex in human | 07:55 |
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| nmz787_i | "LIGO has three detectors: one in Livingston, Louisiana; the other two (in the same vacuum tubes) at the Hanford site in Richland, Washington. Each consists of two light storage arms which are 2 to 4 kilometers in length. These are at 90 degree angles to each other, with the light passing through 1m diameter vacuum tubes running the entire 4 kilometers." | 09:28 |
| nmz787_i | hmm, http://www.hanford.gov/page.cfm/HanfordSiteTours | 09:31 |
| nmz787_i | 'question: can we see the meter-wide vacuum tubes?' | 09:32 |
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| nmz787_i | bunch of mailing lists https://dcc.ligo.org/public/0112/P1400033/005/FinalDocumentAug2014%289%29.pdf | 09:36 |
| nmz787_i | there are so many of these hackathon things that go on.... I had a thought that kanzure should come up with a good hackathon idea and sponsor pizza and drinks.... I bet we could swindle some room for a day or two near downtown | 09:44 |
| nmz787_i | for CAD or something.... maybe some local autodesk folks would show up | 09:45 |
| nmz787_i | or a smaller non-local pizza-sponsored thing for paperbot stuff | 09:46 |
| kanzure | i don't think that cad is something that can be solved in a single day | 09:46 |
| kanzure | although i think if you fed this guy pizza that he would do some interesting things: https://github.com/pboyer/verb | 09:47 |
| nmz787_i | no, but you should still have one | 09:47 |
| kanzure | "more surface-surface intersection thoughts" https://github.com/pboyer/verb/commit/56a07afd68efb1334940aaded57fef47a7bc783a | 09:47 |
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| ParahSailin | no fuck you guido i was using tuple unpack in lambdas | 09:58 |
| ParahSailin | from __past__ import useful_shit | 09:59 |
| nmz787_i | http://paste.pound-python.org/show/eQe6yvE3ykhjcNXCWPfd/ | 09:59 |
| nmz787_i | "BioNano Genomics: de novo Genome Mapping using single molecules" | 09:59 |
| nmz787_i | "Abstract: We present a single-molecule imaging system (Irys) based on NanoChannel Array technology that linearizes extremely long DNA molecules for direct observation of the long-range architectural and organizational information contained within all manners of complex genomes." | 09:59 |
| nmz787_i | ParahSailin: have you seen this ? http://www.bionanogenomics.com/technology/why-genome-mapping/ | 10:04 |
| nmz787_i | http://www.bionanogenomics.com/technology/nanochannel-arrays/ | 10:04 |
| nmz787_i | that looks quite similar to a nanofluidic I found and was planning to try replicating the protocol of | 10:04 |
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| superkuh | "“We know researchers are already sharing content, often in hidden corners of the Internet or using clumsy, time-consuming practices,” said a statement by Timo Hannay, the managing director of Digital Science, a division of Macmillan that has invested in ReadCube." | 10:40 |
| superkuh | http://www.nature.com/news/nature-makes-all-articles-free-to-view-1.16460 | 10:41 |
| kanzure | that $40k/pdf thing... wtf. | 10:55 |
| kanzure | readcube is pretty awfu | 10:55 |
| kanzure | i don't know if you've tried reverse engineering it | 10:55 |
| kanzure | but basically: png images of every page | 10:55 |
| kanzure | and then they charge you rental fees | 10:55 |
| kanzure | sorry to bring you such bad news heh | 10:56 |
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| nmz787_i | "Nature will make its articles back to 1869 free to share to be read online but not to be printed or downloaded." NEWSFLASH - reading in your browser requires downloading | 10:59 |
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| superkuh | Well aware of readcube's shit. | 11:08 |
| kanzure | what i don't understand is how readcube convinced them to use readcube at all | 11:15 |
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| kanzure | paperbot$ grep "readcube" *.txt | wc -l | 11:16 |
| kanzure | 119 | 11:16 |
| kanzure | http://onlinelibrarystatic.wiley.com/js/wol.readcube.js | 11:17 |
| kanzure | http://download.readcube.com/client/readcube.exe | 11:17 |
| kanzure | http://download.readcube.com/client/readcube.dmg | 11:17 |
| kanzure | http://cdn.objects.readcube.com/prerendered/e45571ca078733939300653847d58acfe97071a3df324c96bb08f782fabd98b5/1.jpg?Expires=1577836800&Signature=iNnOUyQa-07WCiR5uWyfmFaNM8oeC9QiFziOvnjs2Bb1RvfmQaU5BFOH4wdkS4ZsCrPtaTOAnAU-zYI~yeYLjNLJqXO5hdoFWJlSfURFd66Msk5e4UBZbCH-H~RBDiaIY2TGT9cjbMI08XJMbJJ26SKPh2FytzaZxAvafy~hLls_&Key-Pair-Id=APKAI2AQJBOTGLBL6N3A | 11:18 |
| archels | https://gs1.wac.edgecastcdn.net/8019B6/data.tumblr.com/178df0aceff05642f8ada11c5fc52287/tumblr_nfdspvL6UT1qb26yko1_1280.jpg | 11:19 |
| kanzure | readcube cloudfront is http://di4gj5lwn0jim.cloudfront.net/ | 11:24 |
| nmz787_i | would we need to make a bot that shares every link it has access to? to at least make all the readcube-available data accessible | 11:25 |
| kanzure | they will just revoke access | 11:27 |
| kanzure | and also, who the fuck wants pngs of every page? nobody | 11:27 |
| nmz787_i | sure people want pngs, if pdfs aren't available | 11:27 |
| kanzure | no thanks | 11:27 |
| kanzure | i am also uninterested in associating myself with people that are okay with that | 11:28 |
| nmz787_i | and why would they revoke access, didn't that article say sharing links from institutions was allowed? | 11:28 |
| nmz787_i | psh, you just don't like data enough obviouslyt | 11:28 |
| kanzure | "sharing links to all articles" is not one of the things they will be okay with | 11:28 |
| nmz787_i | so you're saying if there was an article you absolutely couldn't get within a minute or so, but the png link was available, you wouldn't read the png? | 11:29 |
| nmz787_i | that would be pretty dumb | 11:29 |
| kanzure | that's right | 11:29 |
| kanzure | https://d1ybdlpf6gb4fg.cloudfront.net/reader/builds/stable/reader.swf?Expires=1420070400&Signature=HvGH6KChcjDOLTWY4kcB0b~FkmMulIgoEZJnBKukX5obVoK090WIuOr4~gDOJoTkn-qwnPA8nnr3ch1yx1DRQhgcILNcz6goaxh6iUX6zraIwJWYJbhe1kLU-BZAe54ZCgjhPqpht3sWcUHwX~oncCxxPiBM55OsqAk8mPYnbU4_&Key-Pair-Id=APKAI2AQJBOTGLBL6N3A | 11:29 |
| nmz787_i | wow | 11:30 |
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| fenn | regarding my earlier comment about "the liberals", saw this in the paper today: http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/speaking-of-science/wp/2014/12/01/nows-your-chance-to-buy-james-watsons-nobel-prize-because-racism/ | 12:33 |
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| fenn | this was on page 2 btw, not some opinion column | 12:47 |
| heath | https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/2117384013/flux-all-in-one-3d-printer-unlimited-elegant-simpl | 12:51 |
| heath | when my zego arrives, i'm selling it if anyone wants it for a good deal | 12:51 |
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| fenn | "we took the best of open source designs and put a glossy plastic shell on it" | 13:00 |
| fenn | i can't tell if i'm becoming a crank of if everyone just sucks | 13:01 |
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| fenn | hah "carbon fiber reinforced PLA" http://www.proto-pasta.com/product/ | 13:08 |
| fenn | it's actually weaker than regular PLA | 13:09 |
| kanzure | everyone sucks | 13:09 |
| kanzure | are there any human diseases that involve a reduction in absolute number of neurons in the brain? | 13:10 |
| heath | i just wish i'd known they were going to take my money regardless of them passing their goal | 13:10 |
| heath | that was my first experience with indiegogo | 13:10 |
| kanzure | also, in the absence of monkeys getting more neurons, is there some other way to test whether or not absolute number of neurons is the trick? | 13:10 |
| fenn | heath: the FLUX is on kickstarter though...? | 13:11 |
| heath | i was referencing the zego | 13:11 |
| kanzure | for example, maybe there is a hereditary disease that turns humans into something approximating a chimpanzee | 13:11 |
| kanzure | i guess i should search for "human monkey disorder" | 13:11 |
| heath | fenn: sorry for not being clear, sir :) | 13:11 |
| kanzure | and maybe that disease doesn't change absolute number of neurons but instead something else important | 13:12 |
| kanzure | i suppose it would be helpful if people have looked into all the novel ways that mental retardation can happen | 13:12 |
| fenn | if they don't pass the goal do they still give you a printer? | 13:12 |
| kanzure | "mental retardation involving chimpanzee sounds" | 13:12 |
| heath | fenn: they are supposedly working on it, i think they had some problems and so there's a delay | 13:13 |
| fenn | woah badass skull https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Vimont_Traite_de_Phrenologie_022.jpg | 13:13 |
| heath | they haven't released cad files, and it's difficult to get in touch with the guy over the project, that's my biggest complaint | 13:14 |
| heath | those are my biggest complaints, rather | 13:14 |
| fenn | kanzure: my mom went to high school with a girl like this https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydrocephalus#Exceptional_case | 13:15 |
| kanzure | there's also microencephalis | 13:16 |
| fenn | she didnt say anything about "borderline intellectual functioning though" the girl was quite normal on the outside | 13:16 |
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| kanzure | "One interesting case of hydrocephalus was a man whose brain shrank to a thin sheet of tissue, due to buildup of cerebrospinal fluid in his skull." | 13:17 |
| kanzure | "Dr. Lionel Feuillet of Hôpital de la Timone in Marseille said, "The images were most unusual... the brain was virtually absent."[13]" | 13:17 |
| kanzure | right... so an iq of 75 seems pretty good, really. | 13:17 |
| fenn | basically the difference between having wrinkles and not having wrinkles | 13:17 |
| kanzure | what? | 13:18 |
| fenn | so maybe that doesn't really represent a difference in number of neurons | 13:18 |
| kanzure | a thin sheet sounds dramatically different from "wrinkles vs no wrinkles" | 13:18 |
| fenn | are you sure? | 13:18 |
| kanzure | i have no idea :( | 13:19 |
| kanzure | to me a "thin sheet" means something like "more than 70% of the matter is missing" | 13:20 |
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| fenn | http://www.mymultiplesclerosis.co.uk/misc/mysterious-brain.html "Since she was a child, doctors have told her that she has no more than 10-15% of a normal brain. ... far from being an idiot, has an IQ of 113 making her above average." | 13:30 |
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| fenn | hrm ok what a misleading article. "although Sharon's ventricles expanded hugely because of her hydrocephalus, it was not at the expense of brain size. ... her brain is actually occupying a larger space" | 13:37 |
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| jrayhawk | Well, this helps: /set activity_hide_level JOINS PARTS QUITS MODES TOPICS NICKS | 13:52 |
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| kanzure | does that remove messages from each window, or only the notifications? | 13:56 |
| kanzure | er i mean, does it remove the "somejerk has parted" messages in the main text receptacle | 13:57 |
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| eudoxia | 'receptacle' is a funny word for it | 14:00 |
| jrayhawk | there's three different levels of channel activity flag in the statusbar; this eliminates everything that would generate the lowest one | 14:01 |
| kanzure | so it is only statusbar-impacting | 14:02 |
| jrayhawk | yeah | 14:02 |
| kanzure | neat | 14:02 |
| kanzure | "Lissencephaly, which literally means smooth brain, is a rare brain formation disorder caused by defective neuronal migration during the 12th to 24th weeks of gestation resulting in a lack of development of brain folds (gyri) and grooves (sulci).[1] It is a form of cephalic disorder. Terms such as 'agyria' (no gyri) or 'pachygyria' (broad gyri) are used to describe the appearance of the surface of the brain. Children with lissencephaly ... | 14:02 |
| kanzure | ... generally have significant developmental delays, but these vary greatly from child to child depending on the degree of brain malformation and seizure control. Life expectancy can be shortened, generally due to respiratory problems." | 14:02 |
| kanzure | "The prognosis for children with lissencephaly varies depending on the malformation. Many individuals remain in a 3-5 month developmental level, while others may appear to have near normal intelligence and development. Some children with lissencephaly will be able to roll over, sit, reach for objects, and smile socially. Aspiration and respiratory disease are the most common causes of illness or death.[11] In the past, life expectancy ... | 14:03 |
| kanzure | ... was said to be around two years of age. However, with advances in seizure control, and treatments for respiratory illness, most children live well beyond that age." | 14:03 |
| kanzure | "With other advances in therapy, and the broader availability of services and equipment, some children with lissencephaly are able to walk with varying degrees of assistance and to perform other functions once thought too advanced." | 14:04 |
| fenn | i've been going through the "congenital malformations and deformations of the nervous system - brain - other" template on wikipedia; haven't found anything with a reduction in neuron count yet | 14:07 |
| eudoxia | YIL: koalas have smooth brains, among a bunch of other really sad stuff that makes them evolutionary dead ends | 14:08 |
| fenn | their neoteny will save them | 14:08 |
| fenn | koalas will outlast the amish | 14:08 |
| eudoxia | i very much doubt humans care enough about cute animals | 14:09 |
| jrayhawk | they can be turned into special eucalyptus-infused paperclips | 14:10 |
| fenn | hello koala paperclip set, for jupiter brains of all ages | 14:11 |
| kanzure | .wik microgyrus | 14:11 |
| fenn | yoleaux is dead; long live yoleaux! | 14:12 |
| kanzure | "A microgyrus is an area of the cerebral cortex that includes only four cortical layers instead of six." | 14:12 |
| eudoxia | what happened to all the bots in this channel | 14:13 |
| eudoxia | gradstudentbot, yoleaux, paperbot | 14:13 |
| fenn | cryptoviridium, a plague that affects IRC bots | 14:13 |
| eudoxia | also the gnusha bot | 14:14 |
| fenn | "Approximately 1 out of 50 children (2%) are said to have the characteristics of megalencephaly in the general population." | 14:19 |
| fenn | wow | 14:20 |
| kanzure | "week 7: The brain divides into 5 vesicles, including the early telencephalon." | 14:20 |
| kanzure | "At the five-vesicle stage, the forebrain separates into the diencephalon (thalamus, hypothalamus, subthalamus, epithalamus, and pretectum) and the endbrain (cerebrum). The cerebrum consists of the cerebral cortex, underlying white matter, and the basal ganglia. By 5 weeks in utero, it is visible as a single portion toward the front of the fetus. At 8 weeks in utero, the forebrain splits into the left and right cerebral hemispheres. When ... | 14:22 |
| kanzure | ... the embryonic forebrain fails to divide the brain into two lobes, it results in a condition known as holoprosencephaly." | 14:22 |
| kanzure | okay.. so the problem would have to happen between week 5 and 8. | 14:22 |
| kanzure | "Autosomal recessive primary microcephaly (MCPH) is a neuro-developmental disorder that causes a great reduction in brain growth in utero. MCPH is hypothesized to be a primary disorder of neurogenic mitosis, leading to reduced neuron number. Hence, MCPH proteins are likely to be important components of cellular pathways regulating human brain size. At least six genes can cause this disorder and four of these have recently been ... | 14:27 |
| kanzure | ... identified: autosomal recessive primary microcephaly 1 (MCPH1), abnormal spindle-like, microcephaly associated (ASPM), cyclin-dependent kinase 5 regulatory subunit-associated protein 2 (CDK5RAP2) and centromere protein J (CENPJ). Whereas aberration of ASPM is the most common cause of MCPH, MCPH1 patients can be more readily diagnosed by the finding of increased numbers of ‘prophase-like cells’ on routine cytogenetic ... | 14:27 |
| kanzure | ... investigation. Three MCPH proteins are centrosomal components but have apparently diverse roles that affect mitosis. There is accumulating evidence that evolutionary changes to the MCPH genes have contributed to the large brain size seen in primates, particularly humans. The aim of this article is to review what has been learnt about the rare condition primary microcephaly and the information this provides about normal brain growth." | 14:27 |
| kanzure | paperbot: http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S1471491406001365 | 14:27 |
| kanzure | .title | 14:27 |
| paperbot | http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/paperbot/%0A%20What%20primary%20microcephaly%20can%20tell%20us%20about%20brain%20growth%0A%20.pdf | 14:28 |
| ParahSailin | what does that mean to be an evolutionary dead end | 14:28 |
| kanzure | well, practically similar article: | 14:29 |
| kanzure | http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2816178/ | 14:29 |
| paperbot | http://libgen.org/scimag/get.php?doi=10.1016%2Fj.tig.2009.09.011 | 14:29 |
| kanzure | fuck you paperbot | 14:29 |
| kanzure | "There has been a clear increase in relative brain size from monkeys to apes to humans. In just 3–5 million years the human brain increased threefold in size compared with that of our closest primate relatives. This has led to a search for the genes (and the changes within those genes) responsible for this expansion. The MCPH genes were obvious candidates as mutations affect brain size exclusively, and evidence of positive Darwinian ... | 14:30 |
| kanzure | ... selection was found in the monkey–primate–human evolutionary tree for MCPH1, 3, 5 and 6 [1,57]." | 14:30 |
| kanzure | "Making bigger brains-the evolution of neural-progenitor-cell division" http://www.seco-project.eu/files/publications/fish%2008%20j%20cell%20sci.pdf | 14:34 |
| kanzure | "Microcephaly is a disorder of fetal brain growth; individuals with microcephaly have small brains and almost always have mental retardation, although rare individuals with mild microcephaly (-3 SD) and normal intelligence have been reported." | 14:36 |
| kanzure | "MCPH is associated with a simplification of the cerebral cortical gyral pattern and a slight reduction in the volume of the white matter, consistent with the small size of the brain, but the architecture of the brain in general is normal, with no evidence of a neuronal migration defect (review by Woods et al., 2005)." | 14:36 |
| kanzure | "Although Qazi and Reed (1975) stated that carriers of primary microcephaly have diminished intelligence, Pattison et al. (2000) noted that this had not been seen in any of the families in with linkage to specific MCPH loci had been reported." | 14:37 |
| kanzure | this is from http://www.omim.org/entry/251200 | 14:37 |
| kanzure | http://smithlhhsb122.wikispaces.com/file/view/1-s2_0-S1568786410004118-gr1.jpg/417449352/1-s2_0-S1568786410004118-gr1.jpg | 14:41 |
| kanzure | weird how nobody counts neurons | 14:44 |
| kanzure | especially in cases of abnormal brain development | 14:44 |
| fenn | so "microcephaly" means any of 50 distinct disorders | 14:51 |
| kanzure | "primary microcephaly" in particular | 14:51 |
| kanzure | from eric hunting: "Anything that even hints at the redundancy of astronauts is anathema. I've long been pointing out how there are more active astronauts than ever in history and, right now, the only one people in the US can readily name is Canadian... Yet people--kids especially--know the rovers and probes. Hot Wheels makes toys of them--not to mention countless model kit manufacturers. We have movie franchises like Pixar's Cars and ... | 14:51 |
| kanzure | ... Planes. Rockets could readily be next. Recently, NASA has started to catch-on but old traditions die hard and their PR efforts remain notoriously half-assed, as demonstrated by their weird attempts at creating MMOs." | 14:51 |
| fenn | but "microcephalin" is a gene regulating brain cell division in the forebrain | 14:52 |
| kanzure | "Especially when compared to ESA's equivalent project, Rollin' Justin, which has such fast actuators and motion control it can catch objects in free-flight, juggle, and play badminton. It also has walking legs under development.... http://www.sciencespacerobots.com/2014pics/rollin-justin-robot.jpg It never occurred to them that, perhaps, they might make a 'tele-puppet' version of it that could move faster and be used like an ... | 14:52 |
| kanzure | ... entertainment robot. It's been pretty-much a prop as it is." | 14:52 |
| kanzure | don't question biologists and their name choices the whole system might collapse if you do | 14:52 |
| fenn | well this is why i dismissed the "microcephalin" keyword in the first place | 14:53 |
| fenn | even though it was the thing we should have been looking at all along | 14:53 |
| kanzure | that part about normal intelligence in some rare cases of (primary?) microcephaly are a little strange.. don't know what to do about that. | 14:55 |
| kanzure | maybe those weren't primary microcephaly | 14:55 |
| fenn | how did they define normal? | 14:57 |
| fenn | there's a big difference between "being able to feed yourself with a fork" and "IQ = 100" | 14:57 |
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| kanzure | i don't have a good grasp of iq 10 through 70 | 14:58 |
| fenn | well forrest gump is IQ = 75 (supposedly) | 14:59 |
| kanzure | well he's practically a genius | 14:59 |
| fenn | he's definitely capable of eating with a fork at least | 14:59 |
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| kanzure | he can speak and tell stories | 14:59 |
| fenn | drive a boat | 14:59 |
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| fenn | wtf | 15:01 |
| fenn | "I'm surprised no one has called Jenny a rapist" are these people serious | 15:02 |
| kanzure | "We have movie franchises like Pixar's Cars and Planes. Rockets could readily be next." needs to be satellites and space colonies. | 15:05 |
| fenn | Adults can harvest vegetables, repair furniture IQ = 60 Adults can do domestic work IQ = 50 | 15:07 |
| kanzure | damn | 15:08 |
| kanzure | still pretty high up there | 15:08 |
| kanzure | .title https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZLHx4GAVAkA | 15:08 |
| fenn | some random person said "in the real world a person with an IQ of 75 has difficulty learning how to tie their shoes and tell time." | 15:08 |
| kanzure | probably there's trouble measuring profound mental disability | 15:09 |
| fenn | well it can be hard to distinguish "i don't care about your test" vs "i don't understand your test" | 15:09 |
| kanzure | and "i am hungry give me food" in squealy muscle spasm language | 15:10 |
| kanzure | i can't figure out any real conclusions to draw from this | 15:18 |
| kanzure | number of neurons may or may not matter, apparently | 15:18 |
| fenn | to draw from what | 15:18 |
| fenn | MCPH1 mutations? | 15:18 |
| kanzure | from those reports of primary microcephaly | 15:18 |
| kanzure | right | 15:19 |
| fenn | "a direct link between these particular genes and either cognition or intelligence has not been clearly established." | 15:19 |
| fenn | 2006 ish | 15:19 |
| kanzure | i have had trouble stating the exact competing ideas here | 15:20 |
| kanzure | number of neurons is easy to express | 15:20 |
| kanzure | the other one is something like "there is a particuar macrocircuit that either only humans have or that only humans have a particular set of modifications to that allows them to make better use of their brain" | 15:20 |
| kanzure | *at least one particular macrocircuit | 15:21 |
| kanzure | and then there's "every detail of the brain that hasn't been eliminated by loss-of-function studies or knockouts are equally important to human cognitive abilities" | 15:22 |
| kanzure | ("equally important" is me being snarky and unfair) | 15:22 |
| fenn | how about 6 layer cortex; that seems pretty important but doesn't directly relate to number of neurons | 15:24 |
| fenn | and doesn't involve "macrocircuits" whatever that is | 15:24 |
| kanzure | haha, wait let's get macrocircuits done first | 15:25 |
| fenn | nooo | 15:25 |
| fenn | i hate being forced to learn false ontologies | 15:26 |
| kanzure | so are you trying to argue for the only preserved motifs between brains are microcircuits? | 15:26 |
| kanzure | http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thalamocortical_radiations | 15:26 |
| superkuh | Rodolfo R Llinás book, "I of the Vortex: From Neurons to Self" has many interesting opinions on these topics. | 15:27 |
| fenn | are thalamocortical radiations "macrocircuits"? | 15:27 |
| kanzure | superkuh: i have been trying to explain macrocircuits/circuits to fenn... wikipedia does not have a good article on the subject. | 15:28 |
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| fenn | "Computational neuroscientists are particularly interested in thalamocortical loops because they represent a structure that is disproportionally larger and more complex in humans than other mammals" | 15:29 |
| kanzure | http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Central_nervous_system_pathways | 15:29 |
| fenn | someone could sort through all this comparative anatomy for their entire life and never get anywhere | 15:29 |
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| kanzure | well, yes, you need to do something with the comparison-derived knowledge | 15:32 |
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| kanzure | "paleoneurology" pffft | 15:40 |
| kanzure | "The complete genome sequence of a Neanderthal from the Altai Mountains" (2014) http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v505/n7481/abs/nature12886.html | 15:47 |
| kanzure | Transcriptomic insights into human brain evolution: acceleration, neutrality, heterochrony http://www.metu.edu.tr/~msomel/pdf/Curr%20Opin%20Genet%20Dev%202014%20Somel.pdf | 15:49 |
| kanzure | page 2 table 1 has some comparisons to chimp brain | 15:49 |
| kanzure | and it's referenced | 15:49 |
| kanzure | "It was long suggested that a simple shift in life-history extending the infantile period could have aided rapid cultural accumulation across human generations, by allowing more time for learning [1,61,62,97]. The transcriptomic results imply that the early period of high synaptic plasticity, when learning is most rapid [93] (reviewed in [98–100]), was particularly extended. Human heterochrony is therefore not ubiquitous, but alters ... | 15:52 |
| kanzure | ... synaptic maturation in a specific brain region." | 15:52 |
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| kanzure | "Can the cognitive differences between humans and our closest primate relatives be explained in terms of a scalable cortical architecture? We bring to bear diverse sources of evidence to argue that the answers to each of these questions — with some judicious qualifications — are in the affirmative." http://www.aaai.org/ocs/index.php/AAAI/AAAI12/paper/viewFile/5093/5299 | 15:58 |
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| kanzure | "nymchinsky" | 16:05 |
| kanzure | "cortical arealization" really... | 16:07 |
| kanzure | "Transistor count is sometimes given as a proxy for the performance of a new processor chip, but every computer scientist knows it is not the number of transistors or even the number of logic gates that matter, but how those components are organized. The reason transistor count is at all interesting is that processor architectures are modular and highly scalable. Registers, caches, processor cores and SIMD lanes all scale — more is ... | 16:09 |
| kanzure | ... generally better" | 16:09 |
| kanzure | "The PAX-6 gene has the capability that if expressed in a fruit fly it builds a fruit-fly eye and if expressed in a mouse it builds a mouse eye (Callaerts, Halder, and Gehring 1997)." | 16:09 |
| kanzure | "While more cortical columns and more densely packed neurons in layers could help to accelerate some computations, the biggest potential gains would likely come from an increase in the depth of combinatorial circuits that can be constructed from the neural substrate. The human brain can’t implement stacks or recursion as we commonly do on von Neumann machines. Instead it must replicate structures and maintain information on the stack, ... | 16:11 |
| kanzure | ... perhaps using some form of what O’Reilly calls “limited variable binding” (O’Reilly 2006)." | 16:11 |
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| kanzure | "How could such differences confer computational advantages that might account for the observed cognitive differences between the species? Certainly a larger working memory and support for representing more complicated relationships might be at play, but we suggest here that the key is the ability to realize deeper combinatorial circuits which would enable us to handle longer chains of inference, deeper recursive embedding, and nested ... | 16:16 |
| kanzure | ... representational structures. In general, a deeper stack, whether this be realized in software or by replicating cortical structures, allows for deeper procedural nesting and richer representations." | 16:16 |
| kanzure | "The mystery of homo sapiens’ dominance might also be resolved by appeal to our strong social instinct. Noting that apes have the capacity for abstract thinking and evidence localizing such function in the prefrontal cortex, O’Reilly (2006) suggests the possibility that the critical difference may be due not to the hardware, despite its being quantitatively superior, but to “the motivations that drive us to spend so much time ... | 16:16 |
| kanzure | ... learning and communicating what we have learned to others.” And recent evidence (Shultz, Opie, and Atkinson 2011) supports the hypothesis that social behavior is deeply rooted in genetics and thus a “species has to operate with whatever social structure it inherits.”" | 16:16 |
| kanzure | O'Reilly 2006 is http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/neuro/randall-oreilly/Biologically%20based%20computational%20models%20of%20high-level%20cognition.pdf | 16:22 |
| fenn | man, the only animal that gives a flying fuck if someone is wrong on the internet | 16:37 |
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| kanzure | "This system can be more flexible than other more static neural circuits because the gating signal can be completely independent of the content that is being gated. However, unlike a memory buffer in a standard digital computer, the PFC areas must learn slowly over time to be able to represent all the things that they can maintain, and other areas of the brain must similarly learn to decode both the content and role meaning of these PFC ... | 16:50 |
| kanzure | ... representations. Thus, the dynamic variable binding operates in the context of the relatively more static learned..." | 16:50 |
| kanzure | "The dynamic gating mechanisms work more like a post-office, with the basal ganglia reading the zip code of which PFC stripe to update, whereas the PFC cares more about the contents of the package. Furthermore, the binary rulelike representations in the PFC are more symbol-like. Thus, perhaps a fuller understanding of this synthesis of analog and digital computation will finally unlock the mysteries of human intelligence." | 16:50 |
| kanzure | yes.. like a post office.... right. | 16:50 |
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| fenn | brain analogies are terrible | 17:06 |
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| fenn | .wik tectospinal | 17:09 |
| fenn | .wik spinotectal | 17:09 |
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| kanzure | "The top mosty likely existential threats, including "what the universe could do to Earth" would leave it more habitable than Mars. If "lifeboat for species" is the goal, then going to Mars is a solution in that direction but not a particularly good one - building an underground colony in Antarctica or a self-sustainable isolated underwater colony would achieve the goal better, be reachable quicker, and at a lower cost. However, ... | 18:25 |
| kanzure | ... 'lifeboat for species' right now is not an explicit end goal for anyone who would be capable to fund that." | 18:25 |
| fenn | underground _and_ in antarctica | 18:32 |
| fenn | because one or the other isn't difficult enough | 18:33 |
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| kanzure | "The BLS says the median salary for a lawyer is $112k." | 18:41 |
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| kanzure | don't gorillas do sign language? | 19:47 |
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| fenn | yes | 19:55 |
| fenn | signs such as "give orange me give eat orange me eat orange give me eat orange give me you," | 19:56 |
| fenn | you get the gist but not the grammar | 19:56 |
| kanzure | that doesn't sound too bad | 19:58 |
| fenn | "man bites dog" and "dog bites man" use the same set of words but because of their ordering will be understood by speakers of English as denoting very different meanings. | 19:58 |
| fenn | weren't you reading the Nim Chimpsky article | 19:59 |
| kanzure | english grammar sucks anyway | 19:59 |
| fenn | sucks it does | 19:59 |
| kanzure | they should be teaching gorilla einstein something like lojban | 19:59 |
| kanzure | what's the lojban of hand signing? | 20:00 |
| fenn | ASL : | 20:00 |
| kanzure | https://www.zombiehunters.org/wiki/images/HandSignals.jpg | 20:00 |
| fenn | that's not a particularly expressive language | 20:01 |
| fenn | it's totally possible to conjugate verbs in a sign language too, obviating a lot of the grammar syntax ambiguity shown by apes | 20:03 |
| kanzure | i wonder about listening | 20:04 |
| kanzure | "Analysis of the gorilla genome has cast doubt on the idea that the rapid evolution of hearing genes gave rise to language in humans, as it also occurred in gorillas.[64]" | 20:07 |
| fenn | "hearing genes" | 20:08 |
| fenn | gonna settle in for a relaxing night of hi-fi listening, put on my hearing genes and sip on a mug of cocoa | 20:08 |
| kanzure | pfft the paper for the whole genome sequence of some gorilla has only been cited 200 times | 20:09 |
| fenn | citation is overrated | 20:10 |
| fenn | what. "ASL users have never been counted by the American census." | 20:11 |
| fenn | finding it hard to believe there are not more than 100,000 ASL users | 20:12 |
| fenn | or 500k even | 20:13 |
| fenn | lol "people from the South sign slower than people in the North" | 20:14 |
| fenn | the heat, it burns | 20:14 |
| kanzure | people in the south type slower too | 20:15 |
| kanzure | wait... | 20:16 |
| fenn | maybe it's just time dilation from the faster rotation of the earth at lower latitudes | 20:16 |
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| kanzure | "religious follow-up with venture capital people" https://www.dropbox.com/s/axgpmehewplt7hs/Screenshot%202014-12-02%2019.39.10.png?dl=0 | 20:28 |
| fenn | looks very efficient and confidence boosting | 20:34 |
| fenn | praise capitalism | 20:34 |
| fenn | 28 steps to "yes" | 20:35 |
| fenn | 28 simple steps anyone can do to raise money | 20:35 |
| kanzure | right, so that's actually repeated 100x | 20:36 |
| kanzure | at minimum | 20:36 |
| kanzure | most initial rounds are anywhere from 20-100 commits | 20:37 |
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| kanzure | so you have to consider the close rate... so uh, much more than 20. in parallel. | 20:37 |
| fenn | what does "redlines" mean? | 20:39 |
| fenn | is that just the terms of the contract? | 20:39 |
| kanzure | you send .docx files back and forth | 20:41 |
| kanzure | to propose particular wording of things | 20:42 |
| kanzure | http://abcnews.go.com/Weird/wireStory/100-brains-missing-university-texas-27322422 | 20:55 |
| kanzure | "The University of Texas at Austin is missing about 100 brains - about half of the specimens the university had in a collection of brains preserved in jars of formaldehyde." | 20:56 |
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