| --- Day changed Thu Dec 18 2014 | ||
| archels | '"Futurist" is the same as "clueless moron"' | 00:01 |
|---|---|---|
| maaku | "clueless moron with a blog" | 00:40 |
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| altersid | ha ha | 01:58 |
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| kanzure | futurwho? | 07:00 |
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| heath | https://neurokernel.github.io/ | 08:17 |
| heath | .title | 08:17 |
| yoleaux | Neurokernel | 08:17 |
| heath | "an open source platform for emulating the fruit fly brain", written in python | 08:17 |
| heath | https://github.com/neurokernel/neurokernel?utm_source=Python+Weekly+Newsletter&utm_campaign=0e11c2a84d-Python_Weekly_Issue_170_December_18_2014&utm_medium=email&utm_term=0_9e26887fc5-0e11c2a84d-312677141 | 08:17 |
| heath | i guess that's the most important part: python weekly so i don't have to paste these links :) | 08:18 |
| kanzure | links are okay | 08:19 |
| kanzure | if you find yourself totally bored then maybe read these things http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/neuro/randall-oreilly/ | 08:19 |
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| heath | https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=be4LrGn0lPg | 09:22 |
| heath | .title | 09:22 |
| yoleaux | square steel tubes bending | CMM laser - YouTube | 09:22 |
| heath | linked from my friend ethan chew | 09:22 |
| kanzure | nydfs bitlicense livestream transcript http://diyhpl.us/wiki/transcripts/nydfs-bitlicense-lawsky-update/ | 09:22 |
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| fenn | bender would be proud | 10:32 |
| fenn | it's such an obviously better way of building tube frames i'm kinda surprised i haven't seen anything like it | 10:33 |
| fenn | that would be totally doable with a paper template and $200 plasma cutter | 10:34 |
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| heath | paperbot: https://dl.acm.org/citation.cfm?doid=321239.321249 | 10:58 |
| paperbot | http://libgen.org/scimag/get.php?doi=10.1145%2F321239.321249 | 10:58 |
| heath | or http://lcs.ios.ac.cn/~chm/papers/derivative-tr200910.pdf | 10:58 |
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| nmz787_i | that metal cutting lab is huge, or at least filled with huge amount of machines | 11:05 |
| kanzure | too bad "dead or alive you're coming with me" wasn't a kenshin quote | 11:06 |
| kragen | heath: I didn't see your message until now, and he's already left for the day | 11:15 |
| kragen | fenn: Matt Brand did work with scratch holography? derived from Bill Beaty or no? | 11:17 |
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| kanzure | not sure what this does https://github.com/athyuttamre/tab-snooze | 11:30 |
| kanzure | "The way this feature works in mailbox is you can "snooze" an email. After making your timeframe selection, it will leave your inbox, then return when you selected. For example, if you get a work email on the weekend about something you need to take care of on Monday, you can snooze it until "Next week" and it the email will immediately leave your inbox, then return the following Monday." | 11:31 |
| kanzure | that is weird | 11:31 |
| kanzure | from https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8767143 | 11:31 |
| kragen | that's a good idea because people use their email as a to-do list | 11:35 |
| kanzure | what i want is some sort of bookmark-tab saving thing that caches the tab state for later, without requiring extra http requests to the original servers | 11:36 |
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| fenn | almost like a browser cache... | 12:03 |
| fenn | (netscape used to do this; you could browse offline pages that had been viewed) | 12:03 |
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| fenn | what i want is a e-ink dynabook loaded with a smalltalk-80 OS and a solar panel on the back | 12:07 |
| fenn | generating bitcoin keys in a minimalist environment makes you realize how much shit is running that you don't really need | 12:08 |
| fenn | and how fast a "netbook" can be | 12:08 |
| fenn | uh oh deja vu | 12:09 |
| fenn | i think i've done this rant before | 12:09 |
| nmz787_i | https://medium.com/backchannel/how-we-email-hardware-to-space-7d46eed00c98 | 12:12 |
| nmz787_i | pretty neat | 12:12 |
| fenn | while i'm at it, for christmas i'd like an eletric aptera with LCARS interfaces and a portable solid state cold fusion generator | 12:12 |
| fenn | Cowan’s college friend rented her garage to Sergey and Larry for their first year. In 1999 and 2000 she tried to introduce Cowan to “these two really smart Stanford students writing a search engine”. Students? A new search engine? In the most important moment ever for Bessemer’s anti-portfolio, Cowan asked her, “How can I get out of this house without going anywhere near your garage?” | 12:26 |
| fenn | PayPal - Cowan passed on the Series A round. Rookie team, regulatory nightmare | 12:27 |
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| fenn | eudoxia how's the weather | 12:30 |
| eudoxia | fenn: it's precious i was just sunbathing on my bed | 12:30 |
| kanzure | dead in 3 years from supercancer | 12:44 |
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| kanzure | .title http://arxiv.org/abs/1412.5567 | 12:45 |
| yoleaux | [1412.5567] DeepSpeech: Scaling up end-to-end speech recognition | 12:45 |
| fenn | today i passed on a 15 pound moldy ham | 12:45 |
| kanzure | "We present a state-of-the-art speech recognition system developed using end-to-end deep learning. Our architecture is significantly simpler than traditional speech systems, which rely on laboriously engineered processing pipelines; these traditional systems also tend to perform poorly when used in noisy environments. In contrast, our system does not need hand-designed components to model background noise, reverberation, or speaker ... | 12:45 |
| kanzure | ... variation, but instead directly learns a function that is robust to such effects. We do not need a phoneme dictionary, nor even the concept of a "phoneme." Key to our approach is a well-optimized RNN training system that uses multiple GPUs, as well as a set of novel data synthesis techniques that allow us to efficiently obtain a large amount of varied data for training. Our system, called DeepSpeech, outperforms previously published ... | 12:45 |
| kanzure | ... results on the widely studied Switchboard Hub5'00, achieving 16.5% error on the full test set. DeepSpeech also handles challenging noisy environments better than widely used, state-of-the-art commercial speech systems." | 12:45 |
| kanzure | fenn: must have been tough, being a vegetable and all | 12:45 |
| fenn | it was a local product, "air cured" extremely dense thing in a cloth bag | 12:46 |
| kanzure | i just missed a big joke opportunity, can i have a redo? | 12:46 |
| kanzure | fenn: must have been tough, you being a vegetable and all | 12:46 |
| kanzure | fixed. | 12:46 |
| fenn | redo! you want a redo! let me tell you something sonny, life never gives you a redo. | 12:46 |
| kanzure | redo would be a good name for a deep brain memory stimulation company | 12:47 |
| kanzure | "invasive operations" would be the second runner up name | 12:48 |
| kanzure | "Clinically dead pregnant woman being kept alive in Irish hospital because of abortion laws" | 12:48 |
| kanzure | so what you're saying is that dead women can host a fetus to term? | 12:48 |
| kanzure | oh, this is probably just some brain dead person. hrm. | 12:49 |
| fenn | yes | 12:49 |
| kanzure | "all the joys of pregnancy without none of them disgusting psychological effects" | 12:49 |
| kanzure | surrogacy industry is going to be devastated | 12:49 |
| fenn | i think that's an excellent idea; even better if they can be used for additional pregnancies | 12:49 |
| kanzure | right. fuck paying people to live 9 months of misery, when this is available. | 12:50 |
| kanzure | although, who gets paid? | 12:50 |
| fenn | needs statistically significant data to determine outcomes though | 12:50 |
| EnabrinTain | Axlotl Tanks | 12:50 |
| fenn | if 90% of the babies have severe developmental problems it's not a win | 12:50 |
| superkuh | The hospital bill for keeping them alive is probably more than the cost of a live host. | 12:51 |
| kanzure | maybe you pay the families of the deceased...? | 12:51 |
| fenn | superkuh: sure but that's fixable | 12:51 |
| kanzure | a live host is somewhere between $15k and "100% of your annual salary for 1 year" | 12:51 |
| kanzure | yeah i think long-term pregnancy care can happen outside of a hopsital | 12:51 |
| kanzure | *hospital | 12:51 |
| kanzure | where are the coma wards anyway? | 12:51 |
| fenn | pregnant women in india get by on what, $1k/yr? less? | 12:51 |
| kanzure | right... live hosts are pretty cheap. but it's much more complicated. | 12:52 |
| kanzure | and then you have to make sure they don't drink alcohol or whatever | 12:52 |
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| kanzure | "morbid developments, inc." | 12:53 |
| fenn | was this in Kill Bill? | 12:53 |
| fenn | or did the baby die | 12:53 |
| kanzure | never watched | 12:53 |
| kanzure | what's interesting is that they didn't find a suroggacy option in time for this brain dead patient | 12:54 |
| kanzure | (they probably didn't think of it, or have the paperwork for it) | 12:54 |
| eudoxia | finding a surrogate probably takes time | 12:54 |
| kanzure | i hope not, that would be the worst | 12:54 |
| kanzure | surely there's a company in india that has a list of prospects | 12:54 |
| fenn | The Bride awakens from her four-year coma and is horrified to find she is no longer pregnant. A hospital worker, Buck, has been raping her while she was comatose. She kills him, takes his truck, and teaches herself to walk again. Resolving to kill Bill and all four members of the Deadly Viper Assassination Squad, she picks her first target: O-Ren Ishii | 12:55 |
| kanzure | why would being no longer pregnant be horrifying? | 12:55 |
| kanzure | didn't you expect to eventually wake up one day not preganant? | 12:56 |
| kanzure | *pregnant | 12:56 |
| eudoxia | well because presumably her baby had been taken away and she didn't know where it was | 12:56 |
| kanzure | that happens in any pregnany | 12:56 |
| kanzure | *pregnancy | 12:56 |
| fenn | seeing how the baby is from the guy who shot her and caused the coma, i guess they're even? | 12:56 |
| eudoxia | i wonder of comatose people can give birth with some kind of chemical assistance or a c-section is necessary | 12:56 |
| kanzure | especially in cesarean sections, you wake up and not pregnant | 12:57 |
| fenn | this plot is confusing | 12:57 |
| kanzure | unless there was a complication | 12:57 |
| kanzure | and then you're still pregnant | 12:57 |
| kanzure | "unfortunately the procedure was not successful, enjoy your scar care" | 12:57 |
| fenn | kanzure can you transplant a baby though? i don't think they know how to do that, and who would volunteer for such a thing | 12:59 |
| fenn | re: "didn't find a suroggacy option in time" | 12:59 |
| kanzure | well, i didn't know how pregnant the patient was | 12:59 |
| eudoxia | instead of transplanting the baby maybe transplant the whole uterus | 13:00 |
| eudoxia | and put it next to a surrogate's real uterus | 13:00 |
| kragen | but the 20:07 < fenn> what i want is a e-ink dynabook loaded with a smalltalk-80 OS and a solar panel on the back | 13:00 |
| fenn | could a man carry a transplanted uterus? | 13:00 |
| kragen | oops | 13:00 |
| fenn | i mean they would have to cut it out anyway | 13:00 |
| eudoxia | would probably need to inject the proper hormones for a while | 13:01 |
| fenn | and immune suppressants etc | 13:01 |
| fenn | transplanted organs is no joke | 13:01 |
| kragen | what I meant to say was that that sounded an awful lot like my desire for a keypress-energy-harvesting dynabook | 13:01 |
| fenn | heh gives "dynabook" a new meaning | 13:01 |
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| kragen | since presumably the solar panel and e-ink are there to make you autonomous from battery chargers? | 13:02 |
| fenn | right | 13:02 |
| kanzure | unfortunately that would give me an unfair advantage, kragen | 13:02 |
| kragen | you already have an unfair advantage | 13:02 |
| fenn | type faster! his hashing power is too great! | 13:02 |
| kanzure | whiteywhiteness | 13:02 |
| kanzure | this place is so racist these days | 13:02 |
| kragen | no, I'm not prejudiced against AIs | 13:02 |
| kragen | although I guess I am sort of prejudiced toward humans, since I figure they almost all have an inborn instinct not to kill me | 13:03 |
| fenn | all you slackers hate grayfaces for no good reason | 13:03 |
| kragen | but you haven't tried to kill me either as far as I know, so it's all good | 13:03 |
| kanzure | grayface? http://fc05.deviantart.net/fs70/f/2010/346/d/3/ojiisan_no_gray_face_sama_by_eronzki999-d34m8vr.jpg | 13:03 |
| kragen | .g curse of grayface | 13:03 |
| fenn | .wik grayface | 13:03 |
| yoleaux | http://telp.org/mm6/tavern/anyboard/posts/48029.html | 13:03 |
| yoleaux | "Discordianism is a religion and subsequent philosophy based on the veneration or worship of the Roman Discordia, equivalent of Eris, the Greek goddess of chaos, or archetypes or ideals associated with her." — http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Discordianism | 13:03 |
| fenn | bah | 13:03 |
| fenn | "anyone who has forsaken the pursuit of Slack. Most Greyface are considered tolerable by the seekers of Slack because their disregard for it leaves more of it available." | 13:04 |
| fenn | .wik dudeism | 13:05 |
| yoleaux | "Dudeism is a philosophy and lifestyle inspired by the protagonist of the Coen Brothers' 1998 film The Big Lebowski." — http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dudeism | 13:05 |
| kragen | this section bending machine is potentially like the macroscopic metal equivalent of a ribosome: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=067u69Q2quc | 13:05 |
| kanzure | "tolerable ... because their disregard for it leaves more of it available." hm | 13:06 |
| kragen | I think it would probably be more versatile if you applied it to much smaller-diameter polycarbonate tubing underwater though | 13:06 |
| fenn | apparently Slack is an undervalued commodity | 13:06 |
| kragen | neutral-buoyancy | 13:06 |
| kanzure | i think surrogacy pregnancy is one of the best inventions of the past hundred years | 13:07 |
| kanzure | and very few appreciate it | 13:07 |
| kanzure | not that appreciation is required | 13:07 |
| fenn | s/appreciate/utilize/ | 13:07 |
| kanzure | oh right | 13:07 |
| kanzure | okay then | 13:07 |
| fenn | the phrase you're searching for is "white guilt" | 13:07 |
| kanzure | although, i think there are still some requirements for insane hormone regiments prior to starting the surrogacy | 13:08 |
| kanzure | in both people | 13:08 |
| kanzure | so this is possibly why this option is overlooked | 13:08 |
| kragen | yeah, the answer to "fenn> could a man carry a transplanted uterus?" probably depends on what you maen by "man" | 13:08 |
| fenn | egg donation is pretty rough whether you're going to use it or not | 13:08 |
| kanzure | oh right, yes, there's far more egg donors and egg storing people than people using surrogacy | 13:09 |
| fenn | kragen: someone born without a uterus | 13:09 |
| kragen | I'm not sure you're still a "man" once your hips are wider than they would have been if you were a nulliparous woman | 13:09 |
| kanzure | what | 13:09 |
| kragen | and you get massive breasts | 13:09 |
| fenn | what do hips have to do with anything | 13:09 |
| kanzure | uh... | 13:09 |
| kanzure | wtf? | 13:09 |
| kragen | which are things that pregnancy hormones will do to you | 13:09 |
| kanzure | so what? | 13:10 |
| fenn | unless you're like 13 your hips have finished growing (and i wouldn't call a 13 year old a man, sorry jews) | 13:10 |
| kragen | nope, pregnant women's hips grow | 13:10 |
| kanzure | you are demonstrating a surprising lack of forethought about whether or not hips change your biological capacity to manufacture a human | 13:10 |
| kanzure | hips are not a component in this estimation because of widely-known technology that help whether or not you have hip bones | 13:10 |
| kragen | that's how you can tell nulliparous female skeletons from parous female skeletons in archeological digs | 13:10 |
| kanzure | that doesn't matter | 13:11 |
| fenn | kragen: i thought it was due to stretching of the ligaments that hold the sacroiliac joint together | 13:11 |
| kanzure | your definition of "man" requiring something about hips is ridiculous | 13:11 |
| kanzure | and shows a surprising lack of thought about this topic | 13:11 |
| kragen | you would be surprised how much time I've spent talking to trans people about the social construction of gender | 13:12 |
| kanzure | yes, social constructions are totally going to let you carry a baby | 13:12 |
| fenn | i'm unclear on the exact mechanisms involved in pregnancy-related hormones and what organs they come from | 13:12 |
| kragen | fenn: they are relevant to the answer to your question; it depends on what you mean by "man". certainly someone who goes through the usual pregnancy hormonal regime will have a lot of secondary sexual attributes that will make people stop identifying them as a "man" | 13:12 |
| kanzure | technology is how you carry a fetus, whether biological or not | 13:12 |
| kragen | you can inject them | 13:12 |
| fenn | presumably if you're transplanting a uterus you're also transplanting the ovaries | 13:12 |
| kanzure | nothing about society's thoughts about gender or whatever. that's horsecrap. | 13:12 |
| kragen | maybe, who knows | 13:12 |
| kragen | I'm pretty sure you can transplant a uterus into someone who was born without one if you can transplant it into someone who was born with a different one | 13:13 |
| kanzure | secondary sexual characteristics were never a good idea and it is wrong to propose it again | 13:13 |
| fenn | kragen: by the time you're an adult there are a lot of physical changes (larynx, bone structure) that aren't reversed by addition of estrogen | 13:13 |
| kanzure | yes i'm sure there's many biologically female no-weirdo-chromosome abnormality people that simply don't have a uterus | 13:13 |
| kragen | fenn: yes, I'm well aware :) | 13:14 |
| kanzure | it doesn't seem like you are | 13:14 |
| fenn | the point is simply adding estrogen doesn't make the world say "hey that's a woman" | 13:14 |
| kanzure | that sort of awareness would seem to help people not make the ridiculous statements you have been making | 13:14 |
| kragen | heh | 13:14 |
| fenn | whether people would like it to be that way or not | 13:14 |
| kragen | I'm just saying that words like "man" stop having a universally agreed definition once you start mixing biological gender characteristics around | 13:15 |
| kanzure | oh brother | 13:15 |
| juri_ | ah, transhumanists being retarded about gender. this is why we can't have nice things. | 13:15 |
| kragen | so it's helpful to clarify which definition you want to use | 13:15 |
| kanzure | yes, i'm being retarded about gender because i am pointing out that kragen's hip definition of "man" is bullshit? fuck off | 13:15 |
| fenn | well androgen insensitivity syndrome (XY chromosome) is certainly interesting | 13:16 |
| kragen | I don't think I proposed any definitions of "man". | 13:16 |
| kanzure | what | 13:16 |
| juri_ | i was more speaking of kragen. | 13:16 |
| kanzure | that's even more funny | 13:16 |
| kragen | I just pointed out that people's definitions of the word vary in ways that become a lot more apparent when experiments like this come up. | 13:16 |
| kanzure | i really don't know how to explain kragen's statements today | 13:16 |
| kanzure | because i had previously thought that he had more knowledge about this subject than i did | 13:16 |
| kragen | it seems clear that I do :) | 13:17 |
| fenn | kanzure: there is a lot of disinformation from both sides... | 13:17 |
| eudoxia | i thought we were talking about sex, when did this become about gender | 13:17 |
| kanzure | fenn: go on | 13:17 |
| kanzure | eudoxia: sex is also an overloaded term though | 13:17 |
| kanzure | eudoxia: and it turns out that there's no actual biological consistency | 13:17 |
| kragen | I don't think it's particularly useful to argue about what is the correct definition of sex or gender. I just think that people often use different definitions of them without noticing, and that leads to confusion. | 13:18 |
| fenn | kanzure: many trans people want to shove feathers up their butt and be a rooster, and lots of nazi fundamentalists don't believe that non-standard humans exist | 13:18 |
| kanzure | well, i mean, there's some biological consistancy, but it's not what you think | 13:18 |
| kragen | and of course like all categories they are kind of fuzzy when you try to map the real world onto them. | 13:18 |
| fenn | it turns out that "i think i am a man/woman" is a tiny part of the brain that can get out of sync with the rest of the body | 13:18 |
| kanzure | that's something else | 13:19 |
| fenn | and it's easier to change the body to match the body image than the other way around | 13:19 |
| kanzure | most people that bring up /that/ subject are not talking about stuff like "i have examined the chromosomal evidence and i have determined that ...." | 13:19 |
| fenn | (possible vs not possible) | 13:19 |
| fenn | chromosomes are only part of it | 13:19 |
| fenn | it's developmental | 13:19 |
| kragen | I'm just saying that, assuming you get uterus transplantation working well enough to allow someone to carry a fetus to term in a transplatned uterus, you can almost certainly get it to work in someone who's biologically male beforehand... | 13:20 |
| kragen | (in everybody's opinion) | 13:20 |
| kanzure | what | 13:20 |
| kanzure | has that been demonstrated in male dogs? | 13:20 |
| kanzure | or male mice? | 13:20 |
| kragen | ...but the likely result will be that people will start to disagree about whether that person is male afterwards, because they'll have a feminine hip-to-waist ratio and enlarged breasts. | 13:20 |
| kragen | And that affects people's opinions. | 13:21 |
| kragen | dogs and mice don't have those particular secondary sexual characteristics. | 13:21 |
| kanzure | okay, stop caring about other people's opinions, geeze | 13:21 |
| kanzure | i don't care about the secondary sexual characteristics | 13:21 |
| fenn | there are plenty of men with large hips and breasts and society has no problem recognizing them as "man" | 13:21 |
| kragen | has someone transplanted uteri in dogs and mice? | 13:21 |
| kanzure | no that's not what i am asking | 13:21 |
| kanzure | argh | 13:21 |
| eudoxia | but once you're done with surrogacy can't you just get it excised and shoot up testosterone until you're back to normal? | 13:21 |
| juri_ | the size of the hips is set in stone. that's bone, not soft material. | 13:22 |
| kragen | eudoxia: the breasts probably, the hips probably not? at least with current technology | 13:22 |
| kanzure | i am asking whether or not it has been demonstrated that uterus transplantation is the only requirement, for all members of a species | 13:22 |
| kanzure | aka to backup your statement | 13:22 |
| kanzure | about "in everybody's opinion". it sounds pretty wild to me. | 13:22 |
| kragen | no, I'm saying that to get the pregnancy to work, you're going to have to use the usual pregnancy hormones | 13:23 |
| kragen | whether you generate them in ovaries or inject them with a needle is somewhat immaterial to that point | 13:23 |
| kanzure | argh | 13:23 |
| kanzure | you are impossible to have a conversation with | 13:23 |
| kragen | I don't think anything in particular has been demonstrated experimentally about uterus transplantation | 13:24 |
| kanzure | so in conclusion, you were lying when you said "assuming you get uterus transplantation working well enough to allow someone to carry a fetus to term in a transplatned uterus, you can almost certainly get it to work in someone who's biologically male" | 13:24 |
| kragen | that conclusion is unfounded and false | 13:24 |
| fenn | the sacroiliac stretch is permanent, according to my mom (she blames me for her back problems in an odd roundabout way) | 13:24 |
| kragen | aye | 13:24 |
| kanzure | okay, so in conclusion then you have no evidence for this ? | 13:25 |
| fenn | OTOH people don't usually have surgery to correct it | 13:25 |
| eudoxia | that can probably be surgically corrected | 13:25 |
| fenn | is there a doctor in the house | 13:25 |
| kragen | that's right — I am predicting entirely from theory, not from any actual uterus transplantation attempts. I thought that would be obvious from the place where I explicitly stated the precondition: "assuming you get uterus transplantation working well enough to allow someone to carry a fetus to term" | 13:26 |
| fenn | there has been precisely one successul uterus transplant and subsequent pregnancy | 13:26 |
| kanzure | "assuming something works, then it works" is not a useful statement to make | 13:26 |
| juri_ | aka, pulling from ass. | 13:27 |
| kragen | fenn: I didn't know that! where can I find out more? | 13:27 |
| fenn | .title http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-29516910 | 13:27 |
| yoleaux | BBC News - Womb transplant couple 'had no doubt' of success | 13:27 |
| kanzure | maybe they should have had a little doubt -_- | 13:27 |
| kanzure | doctors should be sued for malpractice on that issue alone | 13:27 |
| fenn | it looks ike a baby to me | 13:27 |
| eudoxia | IIRC the first person to get a sex change, in the Weimar republic, died from an infection after a uterus transplant | 13:28 |
| kanzure | yes a "sex change" | 13:28 |
| kanzure | you know they are lying when they call it a sex change right | 13:28 |
| fenn | .title http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-29485996 | 13:28 |
| yoleaux | BBC News - First womb-transplant baby born | 13:28 |
| eudoxia | oh kanz i just used the first term that came to mind | 13:28 |
| kanzure | kk | 13:28 |
| kragen | then I can simplify that to "since uterus transplantation works well enough to allow someone to carry a fetus to term in a transplanted uterus, you can almost certainly get it to work in someone who's biologically male" | 13:29 |
| kanzure | sounds like immunosuppression issues anyway, not very surprising | 13:29 |
| fenn | "Our success is based on more than 10 years of intensive animal research and surgical training by our team" | 13:29 |
| fenn | the doctor Mats Brannstrom has done a lot of work on biochemical factors that affect ovulation | 13:31 |
| kragen | but in this case they used IVF, no? | 13:31 |
| fenn | yes, because the mother still had ovaries | 13:32 |
| fenn | also the donor ovaries were probably not viable (60 years old) | 13:32 |
| kragen | yeah | 13:32 |
| fenn | s/mother/host/ | 13:32 |
| fenn | .title http://humupd.oxfordjournals.org/content/early/2009/11/07/humupd.dmp049.full | 13:34 |
| yoleaux | Experimental uterus transplantation | 13:34 |
| kragen | so you presumably don't need the uterus-haver to ovulate in order to carry a pregnancy to term. I mean, that's true with surrogate mothers, too. | 13:36 |
| fenn | right | 13:36 |
| fenn | demonstrably so | 13:36 |
| kragen | I'm just saying "presumably" because we haven't demonstrated it yet, since in this case the uterus-haver did in fact ovulate, which does have hormonal effects | 13:37 |
| kragen | but it seems almost certain | 13:38 |
| fenn | er, but pregnancy inhibits ovulation | 13:39 |
| kragen | yes | 13:39 |
| kragen | and not ovulating, normally, inhibits pregnancy | 13:39 |
| kragen | I mean if you aren't ovulating, normally you aren't menstruating either, and I don't think it's just that you aren't expelling an endometrium, but that you aren't building one up in the first place, which could maybe cause trouble with bringing a pregnancy to term | 13:46 |
| kragen | without dying anyway | 13:46 |
| fenn | why "without dying" | 13:47 |
| kragen | zygotes are happy to implant pretty much anywhere | 13:47 |
| kragen | and then they start hungrily drilling into your body for precious nutrient-rich blood | 13:48 |
| fenn | are you saying not having an endometrium will cause eclampsia? | 13:48 |
| kragen | the endometrium helps keep that down | 13:48 |
| kragen | I don't know if eclampsia specifically, but it seems like it could be similar to an ectopic pregnancy in a lot of ways | 13:49 |
| fenn | i say feed them what they want! | 13:49 |
| fenn | the human uterine transplants that failed seem to have done so because of mechanical issues (veins folding and becoming blocked) | 13:50 |
| fenn | "acute vascular occlusion appeared to be due to inadequate uterine structure support, which led to probable tension, torsion, or kinking of connected vascular grafts" | 13:50 |
| fenn | "Exogenous cyclic estrogen/gestagen induced withdrawal bleedings. It is unclear why hormonal treatment was needed since the recipient had preserved ovaries." | 13:51 |
| nmz787_i | 'my body, my baby' -Arnold portaying some doctor in a movie | 13:51 |
| fenn | "bleedings" is a technical term apparently | 13:51 |
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| fenn | wow so the transplanted uterus had spun 360 degrees because they didn't reattach the pelvic ligaments holding it in place | 13:55 |
| kragen | that's crazy | 13:55 |
| kragen | you would think your vagina would hold it in place | 13:55 |
| kragen | I mean couldn't that cause vaginal ischemic damage? | 13:55 |
| fenn | yes, and that's why it failed (clotting damage to the uterus too) | 13:56 |
| fenn | its like twisting a bread bag | 13:56 |
| kragen | oh, that wasn't the successful case | 13:56 |
| kragen | did she survive? | 13:56 |
| fenn | they're talking about previous attempts that failed in the paper | 13:56 |
| fenn | yes | 13:56 |
| kragen | that's good | 13:59 |
| kragen | it seems like in fact your pelvis does continue to expand well after 13 years old, at least if you're female: http://www.degruyter.com/dg/viewarticle/j$002fijamh.2013.25.issue-2$002fijamh-2013-0021$002fijamh-2013-0021.xml;jsessionid=BEB2CDC45915E005413D842AEDC776CD | 14:00 |
| fenn | Since necrosis and thrombosis are signs of full rejection, this could be the reason for the demise of the organ rather than ‘torsion and kinking of the vessels secondary to inadequate structural support’, as suggested. | 14:01 |
| kragen | but maybe I was wrong about pregnancy-induced expansion, and it's just a matter of looser sacroiliac joints, like you said | 14:01 |
| kragen | of the bone, I mean | 14:01 |
| fenn | .title | 14:02 |
| yoleaux | Smaller pelvic size in pregnant adolescents contributes to lower birth weight : International Journal of Adolescent Medicine and Health | 14:02 |
| kragen | (I'm assuming that the 125 primiparous adolescents in their study were mostly over 13!) | 14:02 |
| fenn | while we're on the topic i never found any evidence supporting bkero's assertion that italian women have wider hips | 14:03 |
| fenn | but there wasn't any evidence at all | 14:03 |
| kragen | it would be surprising if it were true | 14:03 |
| fenn | no it wouldn't | 14:03 |
| fenn | but i have no idea where to find this information | 14:03 |
| fenn | the WHO does extensive surveys on "waist to hip ratio" but no absolute measurements | 14:03 |
| kragen | it would surprise me because humans are under very strong selective pressure to have wide hips | 14:03 |
| kragen | so you would think that mutations that allow us to have wider hips would spread very rapidly | 14:04 |
| kragen | rather than being confined to one geographic region | 14:04 |
| fenn | the "brain volume shrinking over past 10k years" would seem to disagree with that statement | 14:04 |
| fenn | http://discovermagazine.com/2010/sep/25-modern-humans-smart-why-brain-shrinking | 14:05 |
| kragen | yeah. I'm wrong. this also shows it: https://books.google.com.ar/books?id=NHdyAgAAQBAJ&pg=PA158&lpg=PA158&dq=racial+pelvimetry&source=bl&ots=gLNFUiIbX4&sig=BqKSZRTecUzjFmKtj5zP-iXVdXo&hl=es-419&sa=X&ei=oE-TVO_0Dsn1oASMioCACQ&ved=0CDwQ6AEwBA#v=onepage&q=racial%20pelvimetry&f=false | 14:06 |
| fenn | "A handful of studies on immunosuppression to prevent rejection after UTx have been published. However, no treatment protocol, successful in terms of long-term survival and functionality of the graft, has been presented. It is obvious that detailed studies addressing this issue and with a high success rates are needed before another human UTx attempt." | 14:07 |
| kragen | something like 20% difference by "race" | 14:07 |
| fenn | and in concluding remarks, i would like to thank the pope, jesus, my family, and the NIH | 14:07 |
| fenn | ah pelvimetry was the magic keyword i was missing | 14:08 |
| kragen | although this is of course the early-20th-century level of rigor that lumps all of Africa together with Australia as one "race" | 14:08 |
| fenn | "Research indicates that pelvimetry is not a useful diagnostic tool for Cephalo-pelvic disproportion" | 14:09 |
| kragen | also this book is clearly fascist propaganda | 14:09 |
| fenn | clearly | 14:10 |
| kanzure | how do those UN studies figure out which things to measure anyway. do they just look at a list of possible things to measure, and decide to randomly sample only 1% of the measurements? | 14:10 |
| fenn | waist hip ratio was closely correlated with noncommunicable disease | 14:10 |
| kragen | kanzure: through social network links | 14:10 |
| kanzure | social network is an awful way to figure that out though | 14:10 |
| kanzure | that's not the origin of thoroughness | 14:10 |
| fenn | through social trust metrics and complexity theory | 14:10 |
| kanzure | in my case i can just make fenn do all of my thinking, of course | 14:11 |
| fenn | doesn't work when i'm trolling | 14:11 |
| kanzure | so you mean chimpanzees aren't really my best friends? | 14:11 |
| fenn | they are until they grow up and become interested in other things, like smearing poop and biting people | 14:12 |
| fenn | that came out wrong | 14:12 |
| fenn | "they are until they grow up and become interested in other things" | 14:12 |
| kanzure | that's racist | 14:13 |
| fenn | it's a fact of life, man | 14:13 |
| kanzure | heh | 14:13 |
| kanzure | hmm. | 14:13 |
| kanzure | if you are going to have a huge organization try to take measurements of the entire human population and their lives, you should really think carefully about the most important things to occupy your time on each measuring session | 14:14 |
| kanzure | i'm sure there are many things that are super important to measure that are non-bvious | 14:14 |
| kanzure | *non-obvious | 14:14 |
| fenn | kragen i'd like to see early 20th century data if it were collected by Weston Price | 14:14 |
| fenn | there was a lot of skepticism around pasteurization around then and i'd expect them to have done comparative measurements of this sort | 14:16 |
| fenn | also mumble mumble vitamin k2 mk4 bone morphogenetic protein matrix Gla mumblr | 14:19 |
| fenn | in other words, ethnographic bone structure differences may very well be due to cultural dietary differences | 14:20 |
| kragen | fenn: why Weston Price? | 14:24 |
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| kragen | hmm, you have a good point about dietary differences | 14:24 |
| kragen | in particular they might be due to hunger | 14:24 |
| fenn | because he surveyed exactly this sort of thing, and it was before the modern industrialized diets spread to every corner of the world | 14:28 |
| fenn | also i trust his data to be accurate and not biased by some wacko racist ideology | 14:28 |
| fenn | i'm not automatically assuming that our modern diet is better than early 1900's ethnic diets | 14:29 |
| fenn | anyway there are two confounded variables here; diet and genetics | 14:30 |
| fenn | they are both important and worth studying | 14:31 |
| nmz787_i | what I need is to clone a uterus for myself... cause why 'steal' it when I can replicate? | 14:31 |
| fenn | yo dawg i herd u like cloning | 14:32 |
| nmz787_i | (in my situation I wouldn't want the donor without her uterus) | 14:32 |
| nmz787_i | in case my shiznit doesn't work right | 14:32 |
| fenn | uh, what? | 14:33 |
| fenn | one uterus isn't enough for you? | 14:33 |
| nmz787_i | well say I got her uterus transplanted into me, but then it didn't work out for producing babizz | 14:33 |
| nmz787_i | we'd be screwed unless we got some third-party uterus | 14:34 |
| fenn | yes a 3D printed uterus would be better for everyone involved | 14:35 |
| fenn | you heard it here in ##hplusroadmap | 14:35 |
| fenn | if you grew your clone (baby) inside your clone (uterus) it would cut down on a lot of potential autoimmune problems, but maybe introduce other risks we don't know about (cancer? teratoma? mosaic chimerism?) | 14:37 |
| nmz787_i | I wonder if grass-fed cows are nutritionally more-fit than the average western-diet person | 14:37 |
| fenn | yes | 14:37 |
| nmz787_i | load a cow up with anti-rejection and a new uterus | 14:37 |
| nmz787_i | I'd be ok with my kid being born from a cow | 14:37 |
| fenn | it would probably work better with a pig | 14:38 |
| nmz787_i | hmm, I know my farmer buddy gives his pigs some feed mix, while the cows just get hay | 14:39 |
| nmz787_i | I guess I like that hay is less processed | 14:39 |
| fenn | because pigs dont eat grass | 14:40 |
| fenn | they don't have the stomach for it (ha.) | 14:40 |
| nmz787_i | yeah, I guess they need more land to root around in | 14:40 |
| nmz787_i | my point wasn't that they didn't eat grass, but that I trust the quality of grass more than bagged feed | 14:41 |
| fenn | http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Methanogenesis#In_ruminants | 14:41 |
| eudoxia | "methanogenesis" is that farting | 14:41 |
| fenn | 250 liters per day, wow | 14:42 |
| kragen | nmz787_i: yes, probably 3-D printing a uterus for yourself would be healthier than implanting one that needs immunosuppression | 14:42 |
| nmz787_i | my farmer says 'my cows dont fart' | 14:42 |
| fenn | .wik envirocow | 14:42 |
| yoleaux | fenn: Sorry, I couldn't find article. | 14:42 |
| fenn | .wik enviropig | 14:43 |
| yoleaux | "Enviropig is the trademark for a genetically modified line of Yorkshire pigs, with the capability to digest plant phosphorus more efficiently than conventional unmodified pigs, that was developed at the University of Guelph." — http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Enviropig | 14:43 |
| kragen | but fenn is probably right about cancer | 14:43 |
| kragen | and other unknown risks | 14:43 |
| kragen | but on the other hand immunosuppression is a pretty big health problem! | 14:43 |
| kragen | eudoxia: mostly it's belching | 14:43 |
| nmz787_i | i'm fine with a random assortment of genes (although a bit of screening to eliminate any know super-bad genes would be nice).... just means I need a bigger data set to ensure good probability of success | 14:44 |
| fenn | a .. random assortment of genes? | 14:44 |
| fenn | would you find them on the sidewalk | 14:44 |
| fenn | how do you get a random gene | 14:44 |
| fenn | also some people would have ethical problems with "i just need a bigger set of clones to ensure success" | 14:46 |
| fenn | strangely, these same people have no issues with IVF | 14:46 |
| fenn | go figure | 14:46 |
| fenn | "The Mootral feed additive is derived from proprietary extraction techniques created by Neem Biotech applied to an active extract of garlic, called Allicin. Research at the University of Aberystwyth, Wales (amongst many others) has demonstrated up to 94% reductions in methane production." | 14:47 |
| fenn | i wonder how it affects the cow's growth; most of their energy intake is due to short chain hydrocarbon production | 14:48 |
| fenn | wow | 14:49 |
| fenn | Electromethanogenesis is a form of electrofuel production where methane is produced by direct biological conversion from electrical current and carbon dioxide.[1][2][3] The reduction process is carried out in a microbial electrolysis cell. An 2009 article by Cheng and Logan reports that a current capture efficiency of 96% can be achieved using a 1.0 V current. | 14:49 |
| fenn | paperbot: http://pubs.acs.org/doi/abs/10.1021/es803531g | 14:50 |
| fenn | paperbot: http://dx.doi.org/10.1021%2Fes803531g | 14:51 |
| fenn | derp | 14:51 |
| kragen | this is the part of the pelvis that I thought grew during pregnancy; it turns out that it's not made of bone: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pubic_symphysis | 14:51 |
| nmz787_i | i remember that structure, cause it sounds like synthesis | 14:52 |
| kragen | but it also appears that the total increase is 2–3 mm and isn't permanent | 14:52 |
| nmz787_i | fenn: random assortment meaning what happens with normal sex | 14:52 |
| kragen | fenn: electromethogenesis sounds awesome | 14:53 |
| kragen | an | 14:53 |
| fenn | electromethogenesis is a hardcore metal gabba fusion band | 14:54 |
| kragen | .wik gabber metal | 14:54 |
| yoleaux | "The Gabber Mixes is a 12" remix EP by American heavy metal band Fear Factory, released in 1997 through Mokum Records. The track "T-1000" is from Remanufacture, which is a remix of HK (Hunter-Killer) from Demanufacture." — http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Gabber_Mixes | 14:54 |
| eudoxia | is paperbot deadders again | 14:55 |
| fenn | oh i've actually heard of Fear Factory | 14:55 |
| kragen | https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i-RdsIst6p4 | 14:55 |
| fenn | full album | 14:56 |
| kragen | do you suppose the band uploaded it themselves? | 14:56 |
| kragen | does anybody do electroetching to shape metal, the way people do EDM? | 14:56 |
| fenn | yes it's called ECM electrochemical machining | 14:57 |
| kragen | oh awesome! thanks! | 14:58 |
| fenn | you can use a metal electrode without dissolving because the electrolyte is washed out between the tool electrode and part | 14:58 |
| fenn | unlike EDM which really wants a graphite electrode | 14:58 |
| kragen | well, you would think that you could actually deposit metal on the tool electrode | 14:59 |
| fenn | er, i guess "without buildup" describes the situation better | 14:59 |
| kragen | but if you do that too much I guess you end up with dendrites | 14:59 |
| kragen | yeah | 14:59 |
| fenn | .wik electrochemical machining | 14:59 |
| yoleaux | "Electrochemical machining (ECM) is a method of removing metal by an electrochemical process. It is normally used for mass production and is used for working extremely hard materials or materials that are difficult to machine using conventional methods. Its use is limited to electrically conductive materials." — http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electrochemical_machining | 14:59 |
| kragen | yeah, I'm reading that page already :) | 15:00 |
| kragen | "mirror surface finishes" *drool* | 15:00 |
| fenn | according to my informant there's a lot of "black magic" implicit know-how held by various (ex-) soviet technicians | 15:00 |
| fenn | in both ECM and EDM | 15:01 |
| kragen | I wonder what they need and how to recruit them | 15:01 |
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| kragen | my ex-brother-in-law spent a lot of years doing EDM. he's now machining at boeing but I don't know what process | 15:01 |
| kanzure | is there a reverse autoimmune disease where the immune system you're growing in is immuno-compatible but weak and therefore rejection happens? | 15:02 |
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| kanzure | by weak i mean not many antibodies | 15:03 |
| fenn | kanzure fetuses don't have immune systems | 15:03 |
| fenn | not real ones anyway | 15:03 |
| kragen | yes; that's the reason it took a long time to do intestinal transplants | 15:03 |
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| kragen | the intestines kept rejecting the host | 15:03 |
| kanzure | i don't mean regular ol' immune rejection | 15:03 |
| fenn | please restate the question | 15:04 |
| kanzure | if immune rejection was only a matter of antibody equivalency then immune rejection seems like it would have been solved ages ago | 15:05 |
| kanzure | so i doubt it is | 15:05 |
| kragen | does anybody do wire ECM? | 15:05 |
| fenn | immune rejection is when the host has antibodies against antigens in the graft | 15:05 |
| fenn | autoimmune is when the body has antibodies against antigens in the body | 15:06 |
| fenn | histocompatibility is when the host has no antibodies against antigens in the graft | 15:06 |
| fenn | there is no "antibody equivalency" afaik | 15:06 |
| kanzure | right, okay | 15:06 |
| fenn | you can end up with situations like you described if you transplant bone marrow into someone who hasn't had their bone marrow irradiated or chemo'd to death | 15:07 |
| kanzure | oh, immune rejection prevention is only based on immunity compromisation? | 15:08 |
| kanzure | or are we past that yet | 15:08 |
| fenn | ideally you'd pick histocompatible transplants, but if that's not possible then you just suppress the immune system (but not too much or they die from fungal/yeast infections) | 15:08 |
| fenn | total obliteration is reserved for leukemia | 15:09 |
| fenn | in that case they really need to be histocompatible or the entire body is rejected | 15:09 |
| kanzure | too bad that, even if you had a method of making two people immune compatible prior to any necessay operations, that you shouldn't perform that operation on everyone in your population because that would probably reduce overall immunity of your population (maybe) | 15:09 |
| kragen | fungal infections are amazing | 15:10 |
| fenn | amazingly horrific | 15:11 |
| kanzure | actually, why isn't "inject very small quantities of the other person's blood" a way to ensure immuno-compatibility? | 15:11 |
| kanzure | and do it both ways | 15:11 |
| kragen | yes, amazingly horrific | 15:11 |
| kanzure | maybe that only works with bone marrow, now that i think about it | 15:11 |
| fenn | .title http://thechive.com/2009/12/18/the-human-tree-man-warning-graphic-13-photos/ | 15:11 |
| yoleaux | The Human Tree man *Warning Graphic* (13 photos) : theCHIVE | 15:11 |
| kragen | kanzure: I think that's a way to decrease immunocompatibility, not increase it | 15:11 |
| kanzure | heh | 15:11 |
| kanzure | so i still get points for that, right? | 15:11 |
| kragen | fenn: to be fair that's viral, not fungal | 15:12 |
| kanzure | fenn has been watching too much tv | 15:12 |
| kanzure | the idiots he lives with haven't figured out that they can't operate him like this | 15:12 |
| kanzure | er, which is why he thinks of tree man, i think | 15:13 |
| fenn | my bad i remembered it wrong, that is a genetic condition not fungal infection | 15:13 |
| kanzure | because tree man was on tv a bunch | 15:13 |
| kragen | fenn: it's generic in the sense that the virus contains DNA? | 15:14 |
| kragen | genetic | 15:14 |
| fenn | "The cause of the condition is an inactivating HP mutation in either the EVER1 or EVER2 genes, which are located adjacent to one another on chromosome 17." ... "It is characterized by abnormal susceptibility to human papillomaviruses (HPVs) of the skin. The resulting uncontrolled HPV infections result in the growth of scaly macules and papules, particularly on the hands and feet." | 15:15 |
| kragen | oh, I see | 15:15 |
| kanzure | .title https://community.mars-one.com/projects/cyano-knights1 | 15:15 |
| yoleaux | #CyanoKnights - Generating O2 out of CO2 - Projects - Mars One Community Platform | 15:15 |
| * fenn warily clicks | 15:16 | |
| fenn | this hasn't been done yet? | 15:17 |
| kanzure | :/ | 15:17 |
| nmz787_i | I came up with what I think would be a good diybio hackathon topic: blastbot... an IRC bot you could query with easy commands like [blastbot: similarity(human photoreceptors, Infrared sensing in snakes)] | 15:17 |
| fenn | wtf has nasa been doing all these years | 15:17 |
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| kanzure | iirc this is the most thorough overview so far (and it's not very thorough) http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/Pioneer%20Organisms%20Nominated%20for%20Terraforming.htm | 15:17 |
| nmz787_i | unfortunately I couldn't make that last message more intelligent as .wik https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Infrared_sensing_in_snakes doesn't seem to list a scientific name | 15:18 |
| nmz787_i | (i was wondering a few nights ago if our eyes were merely being 'filtered' of the other EM frequencies... rather than lacking sensitivity (filtered on the protein level would be the same as lacking sensitivity, but I wonder if this filtration was the result of minor tweaks or vast differences) | 15:19 |
| nmz787_i | I know the snake organ is an ion channel, rather than a rhodopsin or something | 15:20 |
| nmz787_i | so I guess they'd be different, but with blastbot we'd need not guess! | 15:20 |
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| nmz787_i | these logos are quite similar IMO http://www.fei.com/images/shell/logo.png http://www.indec-ecm.com/i/logo_indec.png | 15:22 |
| nmz787_i | (that ECM manufacturer and a FIB/SEM manufacturer) | 15:22 |
| nmz787_i | "In 1928, the technological ECM scheme known at this time was essentially improved by the Russian engineers V.N.Gusev and L.Rozhkov, due to compulsory intensive flushing of electrolyte fluid through interelectrode space and the EDM electrode moving (feeding) with velocity equal to velocity of anode dissolution. It allowed to increase current density and to reduce working interelectrode gaps and, accordingly, to raise target | 15:23 |
| nmz787_i | technological indicators of the ECM (accuracy, quality of the surface and productivity)." | 15:23 |
| nmz787_i | from http://www.indec-ecm.com/en/technologists/brief_history/ | 15:23 |
| fenn | this fear factory is interesting but i am unable to read and listen to it at the same time | 15:24 |
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| kanzure | we should put a dna synthesizer (and other components) on a mars lander mission | 15:25 |
| kanzure | and a supply of cells to transform | 15:25 |
| kanzure | so that you don't need multiple missions to transmit new biological plans | 15:25 |
| fenn | we should put a dna sequencer on a mars mission first | 15:26 |
| kanzure | although the "simulated martian environment here on earth" plan for directed evolution will probably work just fine | 15:26 |
| kanzure | why first ? | 15:26 |
| fenn | to limit stupid objections from naysayers | 15:26 |
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| fenn | Clayborne is one of the first areologists and maintains a stalwart desire to see Mars preserved in the state it holds when humans arrive. Clayborne early on debates Saxifrage Russell over the proper role of humanity on Mars and though initially apolitical, this stance marks her as the original "Red," while Russell's hands-on terraforming reflects the antithesis of these views. | 15:28 |
| fenn | Saxifrage means "stonebreaker" and is the name for an Alpine plant that grows between stones. | 15:28 |
| fenn | one of Clayborne's more persuasive arguments was "we don't even know what is here yet, and you want to mess it all up before we have a chance to study mars and understand it. we'll never have this chance again" | 15:30 |
| kanzure | that would be an okay argument for something like, "we should prepare a list of projects and experiments we absolutely must perform prior to really fucking up mars" | 15:32 |
| kanzure | but not an okay argument for "since i don't know what things we should be doing while we have this opportunity, i should argue that everyone else should stop as well" | 15:33 |
| kanzure | jrayhawk: have you considered making a more mobile display apparatus, e.g. 100 phone screens linked to some beagleboard behind some plywood | 15:37 |
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| kragen | nmz787_i: that is cool about ECM. it seems like current-based feed control would work well | 15:39 |
| jrayhawk | i guess i have never priced those LCDs, but it seems like with $600 QHD screens and 6x MiniDP video controllers running around, hardware hacking is unlikely to make a lot of sense | 15:42 |
| kanzure | oh right, video over network would probably not be appreciated | 15:44 |
| jrayhawk | i haven't actually seen if xdmx still works | 15:45 |
| kanzure | also, why isn't there a company that sells ridiculous over-the-top computing+display setups? is there really no market there | 15:46 |
| kanzure | s/over-the-top/ridiculous | 15:46 |
| jrayhawk | That's usually a consultancy sort of thing to do. | 15:46 |
| jrayhawk | Ergotron, at least, does mounting hardware for it. | 15:46 |
| jrayhawk | Proper video walls are suuuuuper-duper expensive. | 15:47 |
| jrayhawk | http://www.planar.com/products/lcd-video-walls/ | 15:47 |
| kanzure | eh i mean "curved" walls that match what reasonable people expect workstations to look like | 15:47 |
| kanzure | hmm http://www.ergotron.com/Products/MultiMonitorMounts/tabid/159/Default.aspx | 15:48 |
| kanzure | this seems a little overly-specific actually... like this looks very rigid and they have only a handful of options ("would you like the 2, 3 or 4 monitor mount?") | 15:49 |
| kanzure | i would expect something like this http://i2.ytimg.com/vi/N7unF2tIXDs/mqdefault.jpg | 15:50 |
| kanzure | except uh, t-slot or some other structural component | 15:50 |
| kanzure | with holes and mounts | 15:50 |
| jrayhawk | Some of the wall mounts and desktop mounts can take a pretty big number of arms. | 15:51 |
| jrayhawk | And the arms are 6DoF and have attachments for LCDs, trays, keyboards, etc. | 15:51 |
| kanzure | this is the thing that seems ridiculous: http://www.cotytech.com/images/products/DM-GS616-1-900.jpg | 15:51 |
| jrayhawk | er, rather, the arms have 6DoF attachments for LCDs, trays, keyboards, etc. | 15:51 |
| jrayhawk | Yeah, those like about right. | 15:52 |
| jrayhawk | huh, never seen these guys before | 15:52 |
| jrayhawk | looks like equivalent functionality and pricing, though | 15:53 |
| kanzure | a chain link fence seems like the right structure | 15:56 |
| jrayhawk | that's a good idea | 15:56 |
| jrayhawk | fiberglass and wood are a bit combustive, and thermoplastic is too expensive | 15:58 |
| jrayhawk | chain link is a little flimsy, but if you can get supports in the way you want | 15:59 |
| jrayhawk | hog paneling, i suppose, would be better | 15:59 |
| kanzure | why is it called hog paneli-- oh http://www.herdsmanbrand.com/images/hog_panels1.jpg | 15:59 |
| kanzure | this except curved and ergonomic http://www.allengateandpanel.com/public/phpthumb/phpThumb.php?src=/public/userfiles/images/sheep_goat%20%20panel.JPG&w=500 | 16:00 |
| jrayhawk | Hog paneling is easy enough to bend by (strong) hand but would probably be able to support a lot of 15-30lb monitors without deformation. | 16:01 |
| kanzure | looks like "hog trap" is the operative keyword here | 16:01 |
| kanzure | http://cdn.instructables.com/F4B/OUTV/GE056U92/F4BOUTVGE056U92.LARGE.jpg | 16:02 |
| nmz787_i | http://www.cburch.com/logisim/retire-note.html | 16:02 |
| kanzure | (i don't know what material that is, but pretend it's correct) | 16:02 |
| kragen | I guess you wouldn't want to electrochemically machine chromium stainless steel, would you? Or anyway you'd need to work really hard to reduce the resulting chromium ions. | 16:02 |
| kanzure | iron balconies/escapes would also be the approximately right shape and materials | 16:03 |
| kanzure | .title https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8769667 | 16:11 |
| yoleaux | Git client vulnerability announced | Hacker News | 16:11 |
| kanzure | (related to .git/config case (in)sensitivity on osx/windows) | 16:11 |
| jrayhawk | ahahaha | 16:12 |
| jrayhawk | git is also super dumb about checking out tracked files on top of eachother. | 16:13 |
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| jrayhawk | case insensitivity was sortof a bad idea in general | 16:13 |
| eudoxia | i'm just waiting for the flood of "shouldn't have written it in C" bots | 16:14 |
| eudoxia | i mean, not that i *disagree* | 16:14 |
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| kanzure | hi Kus12123 | 16:14 |
| Kus12123 | sup | 16:15 |
| jrayhawk | somewhere there is a user depending on this functionality to version their own configs and hooks | 16:15 |
| kanzure | god bless them, too | 16:16 |
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| kragen | fenn: it seems like ECM ought to be potentially very efficient | 16:18 |
| kragen | like, a couple of electron volts per atom of metal removed | 16:19 |
| jrayhawk | re: wrought iron: lacks reconfigurability, but i suppose it'll look pretty | 16:19 |
| jrayhawk | http://www.google.com/search?q=hebo+machines&tbm=vid speaking of which, these guys are cool | 16:20 |
| fenn | kragen i think it is a few orders of magnitude less efficient than machining | 16:22 |
| kragen | oh? | 16:24 |
| kragen | because you tend to dissolve the entire negative form instead of just cutting it into chips? | 16:24 |
| kragen | it seems like you ought to be able to dissolve almost arbitrarily small amounts of it if you're using wire ECM | 16:26 |
| kragen | [does anybody do wire ECM?] | 16:26 |
| fenn | i'm trying to find a graph of manfuacturing processes plotted on log scale of feature size vs energy per gram to manufacture | 16:26 |
| kragen | apparently "WECM" is a thing | 16:27 |
| fenn | of course it's a thing | 16:27 |
| kragen | well, I'm not a machinist; I thought I might have proposed a process that wouldn't work at all in practice for some reason | 16:27 |
| fenn | you still have to blow enough solvent through the gap to take away the ions | 16:28 |
| fenn | so it's limited by viscosity | 16:28 |
| kragen | hmm, interesting | 16:28 |
| fenn | that the wire moves probably helps with that | 16:28 |
| kragen | yes, I'm sure it does | 16:28 |
| kragen | like when I proposed that you could make solid-state relays with magnetoresistive Wheastone bridges for steampunk solid-state computing | 16:28 |
| kragen | not realizing that magnetoresistive materials, being ferromagnetic, act as very strong low-pass filters on your signal | 16:29 |
| kragen | apparently WECM wasn't a thing until 20 years ago | 16:30 |
| kragen | "ø20 μm tungsten wire as cathode" | 16:32 |
| kragen | I guess your wire needs to not melt under the current, too | 16:33 |
| fenn | http://krisdedecker.typepad.com/.a/6a00e0099229e8883301156f990cc1970c-700wi | 16:33 |
| fenn | um, that is an image showing the above graph | 16:33 |
| fenn | aw damn it's not the same graph | 16:34 |
| fenn | that's process rate vs energy per gram | 16:34 |
| fenn | heh Drill EDM is about the same as Oxidation | 16:35 |
| fenn | tunsten is not the best conductor but it is quite strong | 16:36 |
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| fenn | the constant flow of high pressure water would carry a lot of heat away | 16:37 |
| fenn | .wa tensile strength of tungsten in psi | 16:38 |
| kragen | tungsten also deals well with high temperatures | 16:38 |
| yoleaux | convert tungsten: tensile yield strength to pounds-force per square inch: 109000 psi (pounds-force per square inch); Additional conversions: 750 MPa (megapascals); 0.75 GPa (gigapascals); 7.5×10⁸ Pa (pascals); 7400 atm (atmospheres) (unit officially deprecated); Comparison as tensile strength: ~(0.008 ~1/130) × theoretical tensile strength of a carbon nanotube (~100 GPa) | 16:38 |
| kragen | I mean I would think that you would use ultrafine piano wire if you were just going for strength | 16:38 |
| fenn | piano wire is what, high carbon steel? | 16:38 |
| fenn | e | 16:39 |
| kragen | yeah, but the drawing process makes it dramatically stronger than regular high-carbon steel | 16:39 |
| fenn | "The tensile strength of one popular brand of piano wire is listed as 380 - 425 ksi (2620 - 2930 MPa)" | 16:39 |
| ParahSailin | mars-one is spacex? | 16:40 |
| fenn | they'll probably buy rockets from spacex, if they do anything | 16:40 |
| fenn | cheapest source for interplanetary rockets :P | 16:41 |
| fenn | also, only source for interplanetary rockets | 16:41 |
| kragen | so looking at this graph I have two observations: | 16:41 |
| kragen | 1. it's per kilogram of material, but I suspect that the amount of material you have to remove to get the shape you want is a bigger source of variance; | 16:42 |
| kragen | 2. it doesn't seem to include ECM? or am I blind? | 16:42 |
| fenn | what's this about "solid-state relays with magnetoresistive Wheastone bridges" | 16:43 |
| fenn | it doesn't include ECM; i am thinking of some NASA report that is probably gone forever forever forever... | 16:44 |
| kragen | oh, well, magnetoresistance is a slight change in the resistance of a ferromagnetic material, discovered sometime around 1860 | 16:44 |
| fenn | from my UT austin days | 16:44 |
| kragen | under the influence of a magnetic field parallel to the current | 16:44 |
| kragen | with a Wheatstone bridge you can arrange for a slight change in the resistance of one of its legs to produce a large change in current across the bridge in the middle | 16:45 |
| fenn | .wik selsyn | 16:46 |
| yoleaux | "A synchro is, in effect, a transformer whose primary-to-secondary coupling may be varied by physically changing the relative orientation of the two windings. Synchros are often used for measuring the angle of a rotating machine such as an antenna platform. In its general physical construction, it is much like an electric motor." — http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Selsyn | 16:46 |
| kragen | so you can use one magnetoresistive wire to control several magnetoresistive wires, and in a way that lets you build arbitrary logic gates, all solid-state and therefore I think very reliable, although I guess you might have some drift or thermal dependency | 16:46 |
| kragen | but the reason I was excited about it was that I thought that it would be very fast compared to an electromechanical relay | 16:47 |
| * fenn mumble something about saturating transformer amplification | 16:47 | |
| kragen | while in fact I think it is very much not, although I haven't tried it | 16:47 |
| kragen | yeah, Jeri did a nice video about that a while back; did yo usee it? | 16:47 |
| fenn | no | 16:47 |
| fenn | your magnetic field would either require lots of current or have a high inductance | 16:48 |
| kragen | https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p7SkE5pERtA | 16:48 |
| fenn | if high inductance it's either slow or high voltage | 16:48 |
| kragen | right, but quite aside from that | 16:48 |
| kragen | the magnetoresistive wires themselves are going to be hard to get any high-frequency signals through | 16:48 |
| fenn | jrayhawk: all this effort just to make faux handmade goods | 16:50 |
| kragen | I mean they have super high inductance | 16:50 |
| kragen | even if the coils you use to apply the field to that wire have low inductance because they're like three turns or something | 16:51 |
| fenn | presumably you could find something that has a higher magnetoresistive effect | 16:51 |
| kragen | yes, and that's in fact how disk heads work | 16:51 |
| kragen | modern ones | 16:51 |
| fenn | i'm not sure if this solves the self inductance problem though | 16:51 |
| jrayhawk | yes, status signaling and cortisol management are big markets | 16:52 |
| fenn | GMR is a thin film coating of alternating ferromagnetic and nonmagnetic layers, so the ferromagnetic part would probably raise the inductance | 16:53 |
| kragen | I think it would, yeah, but I have this impression that giant magnetoresistive materials are REALLY hard to make. maybe that's unfounded | 16:53 |
| kragen | I mean GMR disk heads are really tiny | 16:53 |
| kanzure | i must have lost context, what is status signaling about monitors | 16:53 |
| kanzure | "i am not an idiot that puts 10000 tabs on one screen"? | 16:53 |
| jrayhawk | wrought ironwork | 16:53 |
| kanzure | oh | 16:53 |
| fenn | kanzure: status signaling is people paying hundreds of thousands of dollars for a fence | 16:54 |
| fenn | that is supposed to look handmade | 16:54 |
| kragen | as far as I can tell, this magnetic logic video is entirely correct. i'd forgotten she was using square ferrite though | 16:54 |
| kragen | like core memory | 16:54 |
| fenn | it is fun to watch wrought iron getting squished | 16:54 |
| kanzure | .g site:youtube.com wrought iron squishing | 16:55 |
| yoleaux | http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3L9A_HvLolw | 16:55 |
| fenn | .title | 16:55 |
| yoleaux | Wrought Iron End Crushing Machine - YouTube | 16:55 |
| kragen | .g site:youtube.com sludge press | 16:55 |
| yoleaux | http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wh6bb312fPg | 16:55 |
| fenn | .g site:youtube.com hebo machine | 16:56 |
| yoleaux | http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8qGHWZm0C-o | 16:56 |
| fenn | .title | 16:56 |
| yoleaux | Hebo Machines - "The Money Machine 2" - YouTube | 16:56 |
| jrayhawk | I like the thing what makes the 3d swirlybits. | 16:56 |
| kragen | .title http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wh6bb312fPg | 16:56 |
| yoleaux | Filter Press for Dewatering, Water Treatment & Waste Water Sludges - YouTube | 16:56 |
| fenn | oh no youtube is throttling me | 16:56 |
| kragen | this Jeri video is super friendly. I wish I knew how to be as friendly as she is | 16:57 |
| jrayhawk | practice | 16:57 |
| kanzure | extreme deception | 16:58 |
| jrayhawk | well, faking conscientiousness isn't really particularly distinct from genuinely practicing conscientiousness | 16:58 |
| fenn | core memory is so cool, let's do that again | 16:58 |
| jrayhawk | er, wait, that's the wrong trait | 16:58 |
| kanzure | that's what makes it difficult | 16:59 |
| fenn | i want a brick of RAM | 16:59 |
| jrayhawk | agreeableness and openness to experience | 16:59 |
| kragen | sadly this is not her most popular video | 16:59 |
| fenn | i bet you could squeeze a lot of processing power into a small space with magnetic logic if using high (GHz-THz) frequencies | 17:02 |
| fenn | somewhere in there funny stuff happens due to NMR shift effects | 17:02 |
| kragen | well, there's a reason that RF inductors don't use cores | 17:03 |
| fenn | core losses | 17:03 |
| fenn | but that's high current (high field strength) | 17:03 |
| jrayhawk | https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uJ9izqMp154 | 17:04 |
| jrayhawk | .title | 17:04 |
| yoleaux | Wrought iron Twisting machine twisting basket - YouTube | 17:04 |
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| kragen | wow, they did that with the iron cold | 17:05 |
| jrayhawk | a pity it looks so uneven with 3x3 | 17:06 |
| jrayhawk | need octogonal iron extrusions | 17:06 |
| kragen | I mean I know it's not steel but that's still impressive | 17:07 |
| kragen | I don't know why these Nargesa videos all have so much mill scale flaking off in them | 17:09 |
| kragen | I mean I know it happens but they seem to have gone to a lot of cinematographic effort to portray it | 17:09 |
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| fenn | ah this is what i was remembering, related to the selsyn http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amplidyne | 17:23 |
| fenn | gain of 10,000x and "tens of kilowatts" | 17:23 |
| fenn | enough to move battleship guns around | 17:23 |
| fenn | totally cybernetic man | 17:24 |
| jrayhawk | because oxidation is hot | 17:25 |
| kragen | fenn: oh REALLY. That is EXCELLENT. thank you. | 18:56 |
| kragen | I've been looking for that for months. | 18:56 |
| kragen | although, as it says, "Modern electronic devices for controlling power in the kilowatt range include MOSFET and IGBT devices." | 18:56 |
| kragen | also there's a weird disconnect here in that high-power radio transmitters are still driven by vacuum tubes instead of MOSFETs or IGBTs | 18:57 |
| kragen | but maybe that's a matter of high frequency and needing to be partway turned on | 18:58 |
| fenn | IGBT only goes up to ~500V and mosfet ~1kV | 18:58 |
| fenn | klystrons need ~20kV | 18:58 |
| fenn | you can chain mosfets in series but who wants to do that | 18:58 |
| kragen | people who want to drive their FIB device with MOSFETs? | 18:58 |
| fenn | the interface sucks because you need isolated gate drivers | 18:59 |
| kragen | what do those do? hold the gate at a particular voltage without it drawing any current? I don't know much about electronics I fear | 19:03 |
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| kanzure | 19:55 <@gwern> http://www.crunchyroll.com/anime-news/2014/12/18/haruhi-voice-actress-says-yuki-chan-anime-scheduled-for-spring ugh. and of course the later novels focus heavily on yuki, even though she's a crappy rei wannabe | 20:11 |
| kanzure | haha | 20:11 |
| fenn | rei sucked anyway | 20:13 |
| fenn | "oh daddy i'll do anything" | 20:13 |
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| fenn | at least i can understand yuki's motives :) | 20:14 |
| fenn | schlepping bits all day, pushing electrons all night, can an entity get a break | 20:15 |
| kanzure | the last person i knew that could explain rei to me turned into a schizophrenic a year later | 20:16 |
| kanzure | (been a schizophrenic ever since) | 20:16 |
| fenn | coincidence!? | 20:17 |
| fenn | i figured rei was more aspergers/dissociative identity disorder | 20:18 |
| fenn | the script writer was the one with schizophrenia | 20:18 |
| kanzure | "This show, commonly refered to as Neon Genesis Evangelion, Evangelion, Eva, "Ee-Van-Jelly-Un", "Evangel Lion", or sometimes What the fuck did I just watch? is about an emo kid named Shinji Ikari who is under the care of Misato Katsuragi, an alcoholic pedophile. Along the way, he meets an emotionless loli named Rei and a Nazi loli named Asuka." | 20:18 |
| kanzure | https://encyclopediadramatica.se/Neon_Genesis_Evangelion | 20:19 |
| kanzure | "In Japanese, "Shinji" means "whiny Oedipus-complex bitch boy"." | 20:20 |
| delinquentme | ^ | 20:24 |
| kanzure | "If you consider flailing around like a moron while screaming for no reason and at the same time having a dark mysterious past the pinnacle of good character development... then congratulations, you're a moron, or a Trigun fan." | 20:24 |
| fenn | this page is accurate | 20:25 |
| kanzure | there is much wisdom here | 20:25 |
| kanzure | "You can also pwn silly theism vs. atheism drama debates on /b/ by spamming pictures of Haruhi" | 20:29 |
| * kanzure takes notes | 20:29 | |
| fenn | "Enough rule 34 yet? | 20:37 |
| fenn | mmm HPV porn https://encyclopediadramatica.se/File:Evangelion_mushroom_people.jpg | 20:38 |
| fenn | or something | 20:38 |
| nmz787 | I'm guess you guys aren't talking about the outdoor store REI | 20:40 |
| kanzure | almost | 20:41 |
| kanzure | huh, encyclopediadramatica.es is interesting (not encyclopediadramatica.se) | 20:42 |
| fenn | some kind of antisec propaganda? | 20:43 |
| fenn | why yes, i am in charge of a top secret underground military facility charged with defending earth from extraterrestrials http://dramatica.org.ua/%D0%A4%D0%B0%D0%B9%D0%BB:1369142165876.jpg | 20:52 |
| fenn | also, penguins | 20:53 |
| kanzure | is this russian encyclopediadramatica | 20:53 |
| fenn | ua | 20:53 |
| fenn | maybe if i look at enough dumb crap in cyrillic i will spontaneously be able to read it | 20:54 |
| fenn | like reading rot13 | 20:54 |
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| kanzure | no enhanced abilities, no nothing | 21:15 |
| kanzure | .title https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Df2BEgivuX0 | 21:15 |
| yoleaux | Paris Jackson in "Dial M for Monkey" - YouTube | 21:15 |
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| nmz787 | paperbot: http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v516/n7529/full/nature13875.html | 21:46 |
| paperbot | http://libgen.org/scimag/get.php?doi=10.1038%2Fnature13875 | 21:46 |
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