| --- Day changed Mon Dec 22 2014 | ||
| -!- Vutral [ss@mirbsd/special/Vutral] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] | 00:10 | |
| -!- Vutral [ss@mirbsd/special/Vutral] has joined ##hplusroadmap | 00:16 | |
| -!- shubhamgoyal [~shubhamgo@84-37.comp.nus.edu.sg] has joined ##hplusroadmap | 00:20 | |
| -!- shubhamgoyal [~shubhamgo@84-37.comp.nus.edu.sg] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] | 00:20 | |
| -!- shubhamgoyal [~shubhamgo@84-37.comp.nus.edu.sg] has joined ##hplusroadmap | 00:21 | |
| -!- shubhamgoyal [~shubhamgo@84-37.comp.nus.edu.sg] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] | 00:37 | |
| -!- Vutral [ss@mirbsd/special/Vutral] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] | 01:07 | |
| -!- drewbot [~cinch@ec2-54-81-156-218.compute-1.amazonaws.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] | 01:10 | |
| -!- drewbot [~cinch@ec2-23-22-218-140.compute-1.amazonaws.com] has joined ##hplusroadmap | 01:11 | |
| -!- shubhamgoyal [~shubhamgo@119.56.115.143] has joined ##hplusroadmap | 01:14 | |
| -!- shubhamgoyal [~shubhamgo@119.56.115.143] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] | 01:14 | |
| -!- Vutral [ss@mirbsd/special/Vutral] has joined ##hplusroadmap | 01:15 | |
| -!- Vutral [ss@mirbsd/special/Vutral] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] | 01:53 | |
| -!- ebowden [~ebowden@CPE-124-187-233-85.lns2.dav.bigpond.net.au] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] | 01:57 | |
| -!- Vutral [ss@mirbsd/special/Vutral] has joined ##hplusroadmap | 02:11 | |
| -!- shubhamgoyal [~shubhamgo@119.56.116.34] has joined ##hplusroadmap | 02:18 | |
| -!- shubhamgoyal [~shubhamgo@119.56.116.34] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] | 02:22 | |
| -!- shubhamgoyal [~shubhamgo@202.55.72.158] has joined ##hplusroadmap | 02:23 | |
| -!- Merovoth [~Merovoth@gateway/tor-sasl/merovoth] has quit [Quit: No Ping reply in 180 seconds.] | 02:25 | |
| -!- CheckDavid [uid14990@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-uutqptmsqysdwyue] has joined ##hplusroadmap | 02:44 | |
| -!- shubhamg_ [~shubhamgo@119.56.118.190] has joined ##hplusroadmap | 02:55 | |
| -!- ebowden [~ebowden@CPE-124-187-233-85.lns2.dav.bigpond.net.au] has joined ##hplusroadmap | 02:58 | |
| -!- shubhamgoyal [~shubhamgo@202.55.72.158] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] | 02:59 | |
| -!- ebowden [~ebowden@CPE-124-187-233-85.lns2.dav.bigpond.net.au] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] | 03:03 | |
| -!- Viper168 [~Viper@unaffiliated/viper168] has joined ##hplusroadmap | 03:21 | |
| -!- Viper168_ [~Viper@unaffiliated/viper168] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] | 03:22 | |
| -!- chris_99 [~chris_99@unaffiliated/chris-99/x-3062929] has joined ##hplusroadmap | 03:24 | |
| -!- DumpsterD1ver_ [~loki@vpn166.sdf.org] has left ##hplusroadmap ["Leaving"] | 03:25 | |
| -!- delinquentme [~dingo@74.61.157.78] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] | 03:25 | |
| -!- shubhamg_ [~shubhamgo@119.56.118.190] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] | 03:54 | |
| -!- ebowden [~ebowden@CPE-124-187-233-85.lns2.dav.bigpond.net.au] has joined ##hplusroadmap | 04:04 | |
| -!- poppingtonic [~poppingto@unaffiliated/poppingtonic] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] | 04:08 | |
| -!- eudoxia [~eudoxia@r190-133-229-160.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined ##hplusroadmap | 04:23 | |
| -!- shubhamgoyal [~shubhamgo@118.189.209.93] has joined ##hplusroadmap | 04:27 | |
| -!- shubhamgoyal [~shubhamgo@118.189.209.93] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] | 04:42 | |
| -!- shubhamgoyal [~shubhamgo@118.189.209.93] has joined ##hplusroadmap | 04:42 | |
| -!- pete4242 [~smuxi@boole.london.hackspace.org.uk] has joined ##hplusroadmap | 04:57 | |
| -!- shubhamgoyal [~shubhamgo@118.189.209.93] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] | 05:10 | |
| -!- ebowden [~ebowden@CPE-124-187-233-85.lns2.dav.bigpond.net.au] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] | 05:36 | |
| superkuh | paperbot: http://www.sciencemag.org/content/346/6216/1495.full.pdf | 06:06 |
|---|---|---|
| -!- paperbot [~paperbot@unaffiliated/kanzure/bot/paperbot] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] | 06:34 | |
| kanzure | bleep | 07:18 |
| kanzure | "Spontaneous generation and colony formation in the Amoeba world" | 07:24 |
| JayDugger | Kanzure, what's Freitas up to these days? | 07:24 |
| -!- sheena [~home@173.181.61.137] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] | 07:25 | |
| kanzure | not sure, i think "more of the same" | 07:26 |
| kanzure | .title http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/cplx.10095/abstract | 07:26 |
| yoleaux | Self-organizing genetic codes and the emergence of digital life - Pargellis - 2003 - Complexity - Wiley Online Library | 07:26 |
| kanzure | "The emergence of self-replicating programs from an initially disordered “prebiotic” phase consisting of randomly generated opcodes (virtual machine instructions) is a challenging problem. The computer world, Amoeba, has many virtual CPUs acting upon sequences of randomly generated codons (opcode templates). An assignment matrix degenerately maps these codons to a genetic basis set of opcodes, analogous to the translation of ... | 07:26 |
| kanzure | ... nucleotides to amino acids. Amoeba self-organizes by increasing assignment probabilities for those codon-opcode pairs in successfully generated children. This halves the effective size of the opcode basis set, doubling the rate of emergence over the control case (random assignments)." | 07:26 |
| -!- eudoxia_ [~eudoxia@r179-25-183-28.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined ##hplusroadmap | 07:29 | |
| kanzure | weird search result https://gowers.wordpress.com/2009/11/07/polymath-and-the-origin-of-life/ | 07:30 |
| kanzure | here is a description of amoeba/pargellis' simulator http://www.cs.man.ac.uk/~toby/writing/PCW/life.htm | 07:32 |
| -!- eudoxia [~eudoxia@r190-133-229-160.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] | 07:33 | |
| kanzure | "Pargellis found that on average, a self-replicating sequence of instructions would spontaneously arise after about 400 generations. Initially, such 'self-reps' were often unnecessarily complex, and contained portions of code which performed no useful task, or were skipped over." | 07:33 |
| kanzure | anp@lucent.com | 07:37 |
| kanzure | http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/ai/The%20evolution%20of%20self-replicating%20computer%20organisms%20-%20A.%20N.%20Pargellis.pdf | 07:41 |
| kanzure | that is a much better paper than uwe's | 07:42 |
| -!- shubhamgoyal [~shubhamgo@118.189.209.93] has joined ##hplusroadmap | 07:46 | |
| kanzure | fenn: try that one | 07:47 |
| -!- eudoxia_ [~eudoxia@r179-25-183-28.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Quit: Leaving] | 07:49 | |
| -!- eudoxia [~eudoxia@r179-25-183-28.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined ##hplusroadmap | 07:49 | |
| kanzure | eudoxia: try http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/ai/The%20evolution%20of%20self-replicating%20computer%20organisms%20-%20A.%20N.%20Pargellis.pdf | 07:49 |
| eudoxia | i can open it | 07:49 |
| -!- yashgaroth [~ffffff@2606:6000:cb85:6a00:8514:8e6d:ad14:3751] has joined ##hplusroadmap | 08:28 | |
| -!- nmz787_i [nmccorkx@nat/intel/x-yzrdimlaxyrrkwly] has joined ##hplusroadmap | 08:31 | |
| -!- eudoxia [~eudoxia@r179-25-183-28.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Quit: Leaving] | 08:38 | |
| -!- nmz787_i [nmccorkx@nat/intel/x-yzrdimlaxyrrkwly] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] | 08:40 | |
| kanzure | "Those disembodied lungs are amazing. And incredibly creepy. The business plan -- patching up donor lungs not approved for transplant (which is most of them) and keeping them alive long enough to find a patient they can save... to the tune of perhaps 2,000 lungs and lives per year. That's pretty amazing. Approved in Canada and awaiting FDA approval as well?" | 08:50 |
| kanzure | http://www.washingtonpost.com/lifestyle/magazine/martine-rothblatt-she-founded-siriusxm-a-religion-and-a-biotech-for-starters/2014/12/11/5a8a4866-71ab-11e4-ad12-3734c461eab6_story.html | 08:50 |
| kanzure | "On a Virginia farm, she’s also raising genetically altered pigs, in the hope that someday their lungs (and other organs) will be modified for use in human transplant, creating a nearly inexhaustible supply of organ donors." | 08:50 |
| kanzure | "The process is legal in Canada, and Rothblatt’s company is among a few trying to win FDA approval. It has worked on more than 40 lungs since May, practicing and documenting results. Once the process is approved, the company will start putting the lungs in patients on a trial basis." | 08:51 |
| kanzure | "Lung Bioengineering, Inc." | 08:52 |
| kanzure | http://www.revivicor.com/index.html | 08:52 |
| kanzure | "Revivicor Inc. is a regenerative medicine company focused on applying leading-edge animal biotechnology platforms to provide a superior quality, high-volume, human-compatible, alternative tissue source for treatment of human degenerative disease. The Virginia-based company was formed in 2003 as a spin-out from the UK company PPL Therapeutics, which produced the first cloned animal: Dolly the Sheep. Revivicor has subsequently built on ... | 08:53 |
| kanzure | ... this technology, cloning the first genetically-engineered (GE) pigs, and now produces pig islets, organs, and medical devices aimed at human clinical applications." | 08:53 |
| kanzure | "At $20,000 net sales per transplant, this is a projected $60 billion market. Recently published results demonstrated that pancreatic islet cells from Revivicor pigs, when transplanted into diabetic monkeys, cured diabetes for over 1 year with complete normalization of blood glucose levels (van der Windt et al., 2009). The pigs used in these studies were engineered such that a human gene (“CD46”) was added, and a key pig gene ... | 08:53 |
| kanzure | ... (alpha-Gal) was deleted, as a means to overcome transplant rejection issues. It is anticipated that insulin-producing islet cells from Revivicor’s cloned pigs could be in human clinical trials within 3 years time." | 08:53 |
| kanzure | haha they have an infographic http://www.revivicor.com/images/RevivicorTechPoster-04-2010.jpg | 08:53 |
| kanzure | "James Zhan, left, and specialist Sam Popa work on a lung being kept alive and restored in an incubator at United Therapeutics, which is pioneering new methods for lung transplant." | 08:55 |
| -!- delinquentme [~dingo@74.61.157.78] has joined ##hplusroadmap | 09:01 | |
| archels | so is "Virtually Human" worth the read? | 09:11 |
| kanzure | no idea | 09:13 |
| -!- poppingtonic [~poppingto@unaffiliated/poppingtonic] has joined ##hplusroadmap | 09:17 | |
| -!- nmz787_i [nmccorkx@nat/intel/x-zrvcftllqyvvmdkh] has joined ##hplusroadmap | 09:35 | |
| -!- nmz787_i1 [~nmccorkx@134.134.139.72] has joined ##hplusroadmap | 09:41 | |
| kanzure | poppingtonic: see http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/ai/The%20evolution%20of%20self-replicating%20computer%20organisms%20-%20A.%20N.%20Pargellis.pdf | 09:42 |
| -!- nmz787_i [nmccorkx@nat/intel/x-zrvcftllqyvvmdkh] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] | 09:42 | |
| -!- sandeep [~sandeep@117.254.223.242] has joined ##hplusroadmap | 09:49 | |
| -!- sandeep is now known as Guest19923 | 09:49 | |
| -!- Guest19923 [~sandeep@117.254.223.242] has quit [Client Quit] | 09:50 | |
| -!- nmz787_i [~nmccorkx@134.134.137.73] has joined ##hplusroadmap | 09:54 | |
| -!- nmz787_i1 [~nmccorkx@134.134.139.72] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] | 09:57 | |
| kanzure | global distribution of chlorophyll http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/4/44/Seawifs_global_biosphere.jpg | 10:16 |
| -!- nmz787_i1 [~nmccorkx@134.134.139.72] has joined ##hplusroadmap | 10:18 | |
| -!- nmz787_i [~nmccorkx@134.134.137.73] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] | 10:18 | |
| * fenn bakes a ham | 10:25 | |
| -!- 21WAAPQ8W [~k@d53-64-122-232.nap.wideopenwest.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] | 10:25 | |
| nmz787_i1 | I wonder why just above and below the equator there is a drop in chlorophyll | 10:26 |
| -!- soylentbomb [~k@unaffiliated/soylentbomb] has joined ##hplusroadmap | 10:33 | |
| kanzure | http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_interstellar_and_circumstellar_molecules | 10:33 |
| kanzure | "A particularly large and rich region for detecting interstellar molecules is Sagittarius B2 (Sgr B2). This giant molecular cloud lies near the center of the Milky Way galaxy and is a frequent target for new searches. About half of the molecules listed below were first found near Sgr B2, and nearly every other molecule has since been detected in this feature.[25] " | 10:37 |
| -!- chido [chidori@pasky.or.cz] has joined ##hplusroadmap | 10:38 | |
| -!- chido [chidori@pasky.or.cz] has quit [Client Quit] | 10:38 | |
| -!- Merovoth [~Merovoth@gateway/tor-sasl/merovoth] has joined ##hplusroadmap | 10:58 | |
| archels | kanzure: well, A Taxonomy and Metaphysics of Mind-Uploading isn't, at any rate | 10:58 |
| kanzure | heh | 10:58 |
| kanzure | thanks for checking, but no surprise there (martine was the one that wanted "snippets of text from your written content, to be used to reconstruct the entirety of your set of opinions and upload yer mindz") | 10:59 |
| -!- eudoxia [~eudoxia@r179-25-173-76.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined ##hplusroadmap | 11:02 | |
| archels | that'll totally work | 11:04 |
| archels | this book was from Keith Wiley, by the way, not Rothblatt | 11:04 |
| kanzure | oh, hm | 11:05 |
| archels | apparently he blogged for Humanity+ before, and this kinda rolled out of that | 11:05 |
| archels | he actually self-describes it as an extended blogpost--which is exactly how it reads | 11:05 |
| fenn | "so, i feel guilty for not writing in this book more frequently. damn you readers for silently guilt-tripping me!" | 11:14 |
| kanzure | "free wow gold" - j. random commenter | 11:16 |
| -!- Viper168_ [~Viper@unaffiliated/viper168] has joined ##hplusroadmap | 11:23 | |
| -!- Viper168 [~Viper@unaffiliated/viper168] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] | 11:24 | |
| -!- Viper168_ is now known as Viper168 | 11:25 | |
| delinquentme | free?? | 11:35 |
| delinquentme | O_o; | 11:35 |
| -!- nmz787_i1 [~nmccorkx@134.134.139.72] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] | 11:37 | |
| kanzure | https://michaelfeathers.silvrback.com/detecting-refactoring-diligence | 11:58 |
| -!- nmz787_i [~nmccorkx@134.134.139.72] has joined ##hplusroadmap | 12:02 | |
| fenn | stop. ham time | 12:05 |
| delinquentme | honey baked | 12:06 |
| fenn | yep | 12:07 |
| kanzure | http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/e/e1/Georgia_Aquarium_-_Ocean_Voyager_Tunnel_Jan_2006.jpg | 12:19 |
| kanzure | i like the kid that's more interested in the floor | 12:19 |
| nmz787_i | huh, in vegas the floor was also glass | 12:20 |
| fenn | there's some kind of silly irony in rothblatt forsaking judaism for transgenic pigs | 12:27 |
| fenn | let not the meat of the bacon tempt thee | 12:28 |
| fenn | "Terasem is a collective consciousness dedicated to diversity, unity and joyful immortality." | 12:31 |
| fenn | why is it people always feel the need to append "unity" to every statement of goals involving "diversity" | 12:31 |
| fenn | make up your mind | 12:32 |
| -!- CheckDavid [uid14990@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-uutqptmsqysdwyue] has quit [Quit: Connection closed for inactivity] | 12:34 | |
| fenn | "When the Apartheid of Republic of South Africa celebrated 20 years of independence on 31 May 1981, the theme of the celebrations was "unity in diversity" as a cynical attempt to explain away the inequalities in South African life." | 12:35 |
| kanzure | aquarium livefeed http://aqua.org/explore/baltimore/exhibits-experiences/blacktip-reef | 12:37 |
| fenn | is that your desktop background | 12:40 |
| nmz787_i | http://trends.medicalexpo.com/products/vetigel-stops-arterial-bleeding-in-15-seconds/ | 12:54 |
| nmz787_i | "The gel is not yet for sale. If you're a veterinarian interested in a sample of VETIGEL for clinical evaluation, please contact us here." | 12:55 |
| nmz787_i | hrmm | 12:55 |
| nmz787_i | I am tempted to email 'my goats keep getting caught on my adjoining neighbors barbed-wire fence, please VETIGEL, I need your help' | 12:55 |
| kanzure | http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ecosphere_(aquarium) | 12:58 |
| kanzure | "The main conceptual interest of these objects lies in the fact that they are materially closed ecological systems which are self-sustaining over a period of years. At room temperature, and with only low inputs of light, the algae produce oxygen which supports the shrimp and bacteria. Bacteria break down the shrimps' wastes. The breakdown products provide nutrients to the algae and bacteria upon which the shrimp feed. The manufacturer ... | 12:58 |
| kanzure | ... states that shrimp live in the EcoSphere for an average of 2 to 3 years, and are known to live over 10 years." | 12:58 |
| kanzure | "A magnetic scrubber is enclosed in each EcoSphere. By passing another magnet over the outside of the glass, the owner can manipulate the scrubber to clean the inside of the EcoSphere." | 12:58 |
| fenn | nmz787_i: sterile kaolin powder has been used for a long time, optionally with antibacterial silver. you can get it in little expensive sealed packets | 12:59 |
| fenn | QuikClot also makes a gauze coated with powder | 12:59 |
| fenn | WoundSeal ingredients: Hydrophilic Polymer , Potassium Ferrate | 13:01 |
| fenn | i wonder how that works | 13:01 |
| fenn | .title http://first-aid-product.com/industrial/blood-stopper.htm | 13:02 |
| kanzure | gaah "The ecosphere was reviewed by Carl Sagan in a 1986 Parade magazine article entitled "The World That Came in the Mail."[11] The article is reprinted as a chapter in Sagan's last book, Billions and Billions." | 13:02 |
| yoleaux | Blood Stoppers | QuickClot, KytoStat, & WoundSeal (formerly known as QR Powder) Plus Spray bandages and Blood Clotting Spray | Stop Bleeding Instantly | First-Aid-Product.com | 13:02 |
| kanzure | everything about that was fine until the name of the book | 13:03 |
| fenn | bbbillions and bbbillions of ssshrimppp | 13:03 |
| kanzure | "breathless billions" | 13:03 |
| delinquentme | http://130.211.172.37/ | 13:05 |
| delinquentme | cool | 13:05 |
| kanzure | first time using graphite? | 13:05 |
| delinquentme | yeah | 13:06 |
| delinquentme | and troubleshooting some bad configs for https://github.com/saltstack-formulas/graphite-formula | 13:06 |
| kanzure | "use more pillars" | 13:07 |
| * nmz787_i rotated right-most display from portrait to landscape to have that aquarium showing | 13:12 | |
| kanzure | http://www.montereybayaquarium.org/animals-and-experiences/live-web-cams/open-sea-cam | 13:14 |
| -!- eudoxia [~eudoxia@r179-25-173-76.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Quit: Leaving] | 13:19 | |
| fenn | i'm still trying to figure out how to stream it through mplayer | 13:21 |
| kanzure | you missed the schoolfish tornado | 13:22 |
| fenn | it'll be back | 13:22 |
| nmz787_i | there it is again | 13:22 |
| nmz787_i | I don't think this is actually the open-sea | 13:22 |
| nmz787_i | I see that shark had a shadow near the bottom | 13:23 |
| nmz787_i | though their one tank was quite huge as I remember it | 13:23 |
| fenn | it's their "open sea" aquarium exhibit which has lots of open sea critters | 13:23 |
| kanzure | this aquarium looks much larger than that baltimore feed | 13:24 |
| fenn | it's huge | 13:24 |
| nmz787_i | easily 3 stories tall | 13:24 |
| fenn | feeding time: 11 am | 13:25 |
| fenn | so that's probably leftovers | 13:25 |
| fenn | is there something like ustream that doesn't suck | 13:31 |
| kanzure | livestream? | 13:32 |
| fenn | the javascript search box isn't looking promising | 13:34 |
| kanzure | interesting that "ecosphere" is novel or something... i thought many people have made closed ecosystems of all kinds? | 13:34 |
| kanzure | a computer simulation of a closed ecosystem has the interesting property of injecting arbitrary resources | 13:35 |
| kanzure | *interesting ability for | 13:36 |
| kanzure | but you would need to account for differential benefit of different types of resources.. those string-based replication programs aren't going to build a "shell" because there's no three dimensional space or materials of any kind that provide any selective advantage. | 13:36 |
| archels | wasn't there a 2D grid of cells in one of those papers? | 13:38 |
| kanzure | i don't think they were cells | 13:38 |
| archels | and critters could leech off their neighbours | 13:38 |
| kanzure | that was like "neighbor" in the sense of memory mapping | 13:38 |
| archels | admittedly I only skimmed it | 13:38 |
| fenn | there are a lot of 2d cellular automata but not so many linear ones | 13:39 |
| fenn | i guess people get bored looking at crusty memory maps | 13:39 |
| kanzure | sea turtle keeps swimming by that camera not sure why | 13:41 |
| nmz787_i | TURTLE | 13:41 |
| kanzure | memory maps don't seem like the right sort of environment | 13:41 |
| kanzure | other resources besides computational time and memory must be available and must provide benefit | 13:42 |
| -!- narwh4l [~michael@unaffiliated/thesnark] has joined ##hplusroadmap | 13:43 | |
| kanzure | welcome back narwh4l | 13:43 |
| narwh4l | :) | 13:43 |
| kanzure | nmz787: jupiter's spot is probably just a giant schoolfish tornado | 13:45 |
| narwh4l | Where is this aquarium I was told about? | 13:47 |
| kanzure | http://aqua.org/explore/baltimore/exhibits-experiences/blacktip-reef | 13:47 |
| kanzure | http://www.montereybayaquarium.org/animals-and-experiences/live-web-cams/open-sea-cam | 13:48 |
| narwh4l | :D | 13:48 |
| fenn | how can this thing possibly be using 100% cpu at only 240p | 13:48 |
| narwh4l | it's mining dogecoin | 13:48 |
| kanzure | wow | 13:48 |
| fenn | ok 90% | 13:49 |
| fenn | but still | 13:49 |
| kanzure | enable frameskipping? | 13:49 |
| fenn | i can't do that because it's some javascript web bullshit | 13:49 |
| fenn | if i were using a reasonable video player i wouldn't be having a problem | 13:50 |
| kanzure | cclive? | 13:50 |
| narwh4l | oh hey there turtle | 13:51 |
| kanzure | turtle butt | 13:51 |
| narwh4l | turtle camwhore | 13:51 |
| kanzure | maybe there was an rna replicator ecosystem prior to cells | 13:52 |
| kanzure | er, food web | 13:53 |
| poppingtonic | that was huge | 14:00 |
| fenn | it's called the "RNA world hypothesis" | 14:00 |
| kanzure | rna world hypothesis does *not* specify an ecosystem | 14:01 |
| fenn | are you sure | 14:02 |
| kanzure | "It may, therefore, have played a major step in the evolution of cellular life.[7] The RNA world would have eventually been replaced by the DNA, RNA and protein world of today, likely through an intermediate stage of ribonucleoprotein enzymes such as the ribosome and ribozymes, since proteins large enough to self-fold and have useful activities would only have come about after RNA was available to catalyze peptide ligation or amino acid ... | 14:04 |
| kanzure | ... polymerization.[8] DNA is thought to have taken over the role of data storage due to its increased stability, while proteins, through a greater variety of monomers (amino acids), replaced RNA's role in specialized biocatalysis." | 14:04 |
| poppingtonic | rna doesn't require *that* much energy... | 14:04 |
| kanzure | i don't know if any of that counts as an ecosystem | 14:04 |
| kanzure | i agree that rna doesn't require lots of energy, but you don't just go rna self-replicators -> cellular membranes | 14:04 |
| fenn | so if RNA #1 eats RNA #2 it doesn't count as a "food web"? | 14:05 |
| delinquentme | hey python comes default installed on macs right? | 14:07 |
| kanzure | cannibalism sort of counts, but i am not sure you can bootstrap cells from only cannibalism | 14:07 |
| fenn | cells has nothing to do with this particular question | 14:07 |
| fenn | i guess it's some terrible philosophical "identity" problem | 14:08 |
| poppingtonic | what would an ecology of rna molecules do? If there's free energy (maybe sunlight or geothermal energy), and a heat bath, and RNA (but no DNA), what's missing from the picture? | 14:08 |
| poppingtonic | delinquentme: i think it's ruby. | 14:08 |
| fenn | scarce resources; RNA molecules that replicate the most win because they're more likely to survive $calamity | 14:08 |
| kanzure | in the case of computer simulations, who knows-- usually the ecosystem collapses and dies off | 14:08 |
| kanzure | without the "emergence" of other forms of life | 14:09 |
| poppingtonic | I've seen guns and spaceships designed using GoL elements in Golly. | 14:11 |
| fenn | there are other ways to contain molecules besides lipid membranes | 14:11 |
| poppingtonic | Gosper gliders and other elements. | 14:11 |
| poppingtonic | they can get pretty complex, but the fundamental ops are simple automata. | 14:12 |
| fenn | you could make a net of carbohydrates and stuff your food in there, or hide in a crevice on an inorganic surface | 14:12 |
| fenn | or both | 14:12 |
| fenn | poppingtonic: most of those were created (engineered) by humans | 14:12 |
| fenn | kinda defeats the purpose | 14:12 |
| kanzure | none of those methods seem to be usable in a simulation of string-based code-based lifeforms | 14:12 |
| kanzure | "where" would the surface go | 14:13 |
| poppingtonic | fair enough. | 14:13 |
| fenn | RNA is a string-based lifeform :P | 14:13 |
| kanzure | yes but there's a spatial dimension as well | 14:13 |
| kanzure | it doesn't have magical memory access to other rna molecules | 14:13 |
| fenn | is it possible for a "code" life form to concentrate resources? | 14:14 |
| -!- pete4242 [~smuxi@boole.london.hackspace.org.uk] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] | 14:14 | |
| kanzure | instead it has magical physical access to other rna molecules, heh | 14:14 |
| kanzure | maybe, but there would have to be an idea for how that would look | 14:14 |
| kanzure | probably something like "different code has different resource binding affinities" | 14:14 |
| kanzure | and then... the binding has to look like something... | 14:14 |
| fenn | what if you had something like proof of work | 14:15 |
| kanzure | ? | 14:15 |
| fenn | or did i just send you into a feverish schizophrenic fit where you'll ramble about the simulation argument and the universe being a cryptocurrency miner | 14:15 |
| kanzure | no you're thinking of chaitin | 14:16 |
| fenn | uh. so the only scarce resources in a code simulation are: cpu cycles, randomness, memory | 14:16 |
| kanzure | your simulation can introduce other scarce resources that bundle those together | 14:17 |
| fenn | most of these alife toys feed the system randomness at some low level or it will be terribly boring | 14:17 |
| kanzure | and it's not really "cpu cycles" but rather "simulation cycles" or something | 14:17 |
| kanzure | *simulation ticks | 14:17 |
| fenn | right so proof of work is a way of packaging up cpu cycles in a bit string | 14:18 |
| fenn | but in order for it to mean anything, the selection function has to favor it somehow | 14:18 |
| kanzure | there's certainly a way to favor valid proof of work | 14:18 |
| fenn | yeah you just only evaluate code that has a valid proof of work attached to it | 14:19 |
| fenn | once a code string figures out how to make a proof of work string, it counts as self replicating | 14:20 |
| kanzure | huh? | 14:20 |
| kanzure | so the way that these simulations worked was randomly seeding the memory with random opcodes, then executing code | 14:21 |
| fenn | like a transcription factor; the simulation reads strings of bits and only starts executing if the bit string hashes to 0x00whatever | 14:21 |
| kanzure | and eventually self-replicating programs were found in this mess | 14:21 |
| kanzure | i don't think you need to start with proof-of-work-favoring? | 14:21 |
| fenn | i dont see how you would ever develop an ecosystem/food web when everything is equally distributed | 14:22 |
| kanzure | go on? | 14:23 |
| fenn | self replicators sure, but they wouldn't *do* anything | 14:23 |
| kanzure | apparently they even infect each other, create copies, have different strategies | 14:23 |
| poppingtonic | does rna process information at all? | 14:24 |
| kanzure | i was working on transcriptional logic gates a long time ago, hehe | 14:24 |
| fenn | poppingtonic: it copies strings of RNA... | 14:25 |
| kanzure | arguably, rna stores information | 14:25 |
| kanzure | no, indisputably | 14:25 |
| fenn | no, arguably! | 14:25 |
| * fenn argues | 14:25 | |
| kanzure | perhaps there could be a scarcity of bits | 14:25 |
| kanzure | and bytes | 14:26 |
| kanzure | conservation of bits | 14:26 |
| fenn | there's already a limit on the simulation memory size | 14:26 |
| fenn | maybe you mean conservation of entropy | 14:26 |
| kanzure | possibly, yes | 14:27 |
| fenn | wolfram showed that weird stuff happens even in severely entropy constrained systems, i.e. rule 34 | 14:27 |
| kanzure | ynotds has spent like a thousand hours looking at rule 34 simulations | 14:28 |
| kanzure | http://www.thewildca.com/200000r/snake0401_200000r.gif | 14:29 |
| kanzure | http://ynotds.com/ under "Cellular Automata Project news" | 14:29 |
| poppingtonic | and that other dude showed that UTMs can be made of extremely simple components. | 14:29 |
| kragen | poppingtonic: ? | 14:30 |
| kragen | are we talking about automata theory or mechanical engineering here? | 14:31 |
| poppingtonic | Both. | 14:31 |
| fenn | ok that's not an animated gif | 14:33 |
| kanzure | that may just be how golly dumps images | 14:34 |
| poppingtonic | you should download golly and run a few guns/spaceships. If you haven't already. | 14:35 |
| kanzure | to be honest i do not find cellular automata very interesting at all | 14:36 |
| narwh4l | ^ | 14:36 |
| narwh4l | They are neat, like fractals but somehow less useful | 14:36 |
| fenn | you know rule 34 is just an instruction set | 14:37 |
| kanzure | what about it? | 14:37 |
| fenn | it's not any different from the code alife stuff you're looking at | 14:37 |
| fenn | except time is shown on the y axis | 14:39 |
| narwh4l | kanzure as a fringe topic that might be relevant but probably is not, you might find it useful to read about quines | 14:40 |
| narwh4l | http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quine_%28computing%29 | 14:40 |
| kanzure | fenn: then something is fundamentally wrong | 14:41 |
| kragen | poppingtonic: so who is that other dude that showed that UTMs can be made of extremely simple components? Was it the same guy who showed that you can build them mechanically out of simple components and who showed UTMs that are simple in automata theory? | 14:41 |
| kanzure | neighbor update rules seem very different to me. i agree that UTMs have been demonstrated using patterns inside different cellular automatas with various rulesets, but why should i care? | 14:42 |
| kanzure | you know, i think this webcam may be on a loop | 14:42 |
| fenn | it's just turtles all the way down | 14:42 |
| poppingtonic | kragen: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wolfram%27s_2-state_3-symbol_Turing_machine | 14:44 |
| poppingtonic | Alex Smith. That's the name. | 14:44 |
| fenn | a turing machine is a special case of cellular automata | 14:45 |
| poppingtonic | I don't think it's the same guy who showed | 14:45 |
| poppingtonic | that you can build them mechanically out of simple components | 14:45 |
| kanzure | i think you mean "a special case of the computation that can be performed by cellular automata" | 14:50 |
| kragen | poppingtonic: any leads on actually physically constructing one? | 14:51 |
| kanzure | "Around 2000, Matthew Cook published a proof that Rule 110 is Turing complete, i.e., capable of universal computation, which Stephen Wolfram had conjectured in 1985. Cook presented his proof at the Santa Fe Institute conference CA98 before the publishing of Wolfram's book, A New Kind of Science. This resulted in a legal affair based on a non-disclosure agreement with Wolfram Research. Wolfram Research blocked publication of Cook's proof ... | 14:52 |
| kanzure | ... for 2 years.[1]" | 14:52 |
| kanzure | "The original emulation of a Turing machine contained an exponential time overhead due to the encoding of the Turing machine's tape using a unary numeral system. Neary and Woods (2006) modified the construction to use only a polynomial overhead.[5]" | 14:52 |
| poppingtonic | kragen i thought research in DNA computing did that already? | 14:53 |
| poppingtonic | rather, *demonstrated that already* | 14:53 |
| kragen | no, it didn't work | 14:55 |
| kragen | also the things that came closest to working weren't close to Turing machines | 14:55 |
| kragen | presumably someone will get DNA computing working at some point but so far nobody has done so AFAIK | 14:55 |
| kanzure | i was working on that | 14:56 |
| kanzure | http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/ellington/Modelling%20amorphous%20computations%20with%20transcription%20networks%20-%202009.pdf | 14:56 |
| fenn | transcription networks are more like analog circuits | 14:59 |
| fenn | it would be nice to use the digital nature of RNA to construct a digital information processing machine that modified sequences | 15:00 |
| nmz787_i | https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-3drtMneLIQ0/U3PPvgWE32I/AAAAAAAAFm8/LLNnHP22Qx0/w401-h535-no/IMG_2976.JPG | 15:00 |
| kanzure | .title http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17443876 | 15:00 |
| yoleaux | Ribozyme catalysis of metabolism in the RNA world. - PubMed - NCBI | 15:00 |
| kanzure | "In vitro selection has proven to be a useful means of explore the molecules and catalysts that may have existed in a primordial 'RNA world'. By selecting binding species (aptamers) and catalysts (ribozymes) from random sequence pools, the relationship between biopolymer complexity and function can be better understood, and potential evolutionary transitions between functional molecules can be charted. In this review, we have focused on ... | 15:00 |
| kanzure | ... several critical events or transitions in the putative RNA world: RNA self-replication; the synthesis and utilization of nucleotide-based cofactors; acyl-transfer reactions leading to peptide and protein synthesis; and the basic metabolic pathways that are found in modern living systems." | 15:00 |
| nmz787_i | "Best guess a piece of silicon wafer from the small pieces of silicon I saw down the center shaft of the pump. The pump came out of a brooks wafer loading robot that would pick up wafers out of a cassette and place them in a plasma etcher. The pump had a fine shatter screen on top but it there were two holes. I am guessing a wafer broke and fell onto the screen. When the pneumatic butterfly valve over the pump closed it pushed the | 15:00 |
| nmz787_i | wafer through the screen into the blades. It was one of these:http://www.pchemlabs.com/product.asp?pid=3119" | 15:00 |
| nmz787_i | " 54000 rpm to 0 in a fraction of a second. In the manual for the big turbo I am putting on my system it says in the event if a catastrophic failure like this there will be 3800 ft/lbs of force on the pump. A guy I know at intel told me about a large turbo crashing and tearing itself off the tool." | 15:01 |
| fenn | nmz787_i: your lunar wainshaft went out of alignment | 15:01 |
| kanzure | "In vitro selection has proven to be a useful means of explore the molecules" | 15:01 |
| fenn | too much side fumbling | 15:02 |
| kanzure | nobody copyedits this stuff?? | 15:02 |
| poppingtonic | kanzure: the pdf is broken. | 15:03 |
| kanzure | no it's not? | 15:03 |
| kanzure | which pdf? | 15:03 |
| poppingtonic | "Modelling amorphous computations..." | 15:03 |
| kanzure | works for me | 15:04 |
| kanzure | .title http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18775793 | 15:04 |
| yoleaux | Evolutionary origins and directed evolution of RNA. - PubMed - NCBI | 15:04 |
| kanzure | "In vitro selection experiments show first and foremost that it is possible that functional nucleic acids can arise from random sequence libraries. Indeed, even simple sequence and structural motifs can prove to be robust binding species and catalysts, indicating that it may have been possible to transition from even the earliest self-replicators to a nascent, RNA-catalyzed metabolism." | 15:04 |
| kanzure | see this is why i like this person | 15:04 |
| nmz787_i | poppingtonic: works for me too | 15:04 |
| kanzure | that seems very similar to the computational results | 15:04 |
| nmz787_i | there was even that MIT assistant prof I posted some new | 15:05 |
| nmz787_i | 'theory' of life about a week or two ago | 15:05 |
| nmz787_i | he did some RNA calcs | 15:05 |
| poppingtonic | I redownloaded it. Works fine. | 15:06 |
| kanzure | "Because of the diversity of aptamers and ribozymes that can be selected, it is possible to construct a 'fossil record' of the evolution of the RNA world, with in vitro selected catalysts filling in as doppelgangers for molecules long gone. In this way a plausible pathway from simple oligonucleotide replicators to genomic polymerases can be imagined, as can a pathway from basal ribozyme activities to the ribosome. Most importantly, ... | 15:06 |
| kanzure | ... though, in vitro selection experiments can give a true and quantitative idea of the likelihood that these scenarios could have played out in the RNA world. Simple binding species and catalysts could have evolved into other structures and functions. As replicating sequences grew longer, new, more complex functions or faster catalytic activities could have been accessed. Some activities may have been isolated in sequence space, but ... | 15:06 |
| kanzure | ... others could have been approached along large, interconnected neutral networks. As the number, type, and length of ribozymes increased, RNA genomes would have evolved and eventually there would have been no area in a fitness landscape that would have been inaccessible. Self-replication would have inexorably led to life." | 15:06 |
| nmz787_i | Jeremy England | 15:06 |
| nmz787_i | maybe this paper http://scitation.aip.org/content/aip/journal/jcp/139/12/10.1063/1.4818538 | 15:07 |
| kanzure | .title | 15:07 |
| yoleaux | Statistical physics of self-replication | 15:07 |
| poppingtonic | I read about that. Did anyone read the Constructor Theory papers? constructortheory.org | 15:07 |
| kanzure | "Self-replication is a capacity common to every species of living thing, and simple physical intuition dictates that such a process must invariably be fueled by the production of entropy. Here, we undertake to make this intuition rigorous and quantitative by deriving a lower bound for the amount of heat that is produced during a process of self-replication in a system coupled to a thermal bath. We find that the minimum value for the ... | 15:07 |
| kanzure | ... physically allowed rate of heat production is determined by the growth rate, internal entropy, and durability of the replicator, and we discuss the implications of this finding for bacterial cell division, as well as for the pre-biotic emergence of self-replicating nucleic acids." | 15:07 |
| poppingtonic | where's paperbot? | 15:08 |
| nmz787_i | he had a breakdown | 15:08 |
| kanzure | what is john brockman doing here | 15:08 |
| fenn | no nmz787_i he's "on a research fellowship" | 15:09 |
| kanzure | research sabbatical | 15:09 |
| poppingtonic | the "Modelling amorphous computations.." paper's supplementary data page is missing. what. | 15:09 |
| nmz787_i | fenn: some artical said he was an asst prog | 15:09 |
| nmz787_i | prof | 15:09 |
| kanzure | paperbot is on a field expedition | 15:09 |
| nmz787_i | blame the media | 15:09 |
| fenn | blame meme media | 15:09 |
| fenn | assistant prog sounds more likely | 15:10 |
| kanzure | "Constructor theory seeks to express all fundamental scientific theories in terms of a dichotomy between possible and impossible physical transformations - those that can be caused to happen and those that cannot. This is a departure from the prevailing conception of fundamental physics which is to predict what will happen from initial conditions and laws of motion." | 15:11 |
| poppingtonic | "The hairpin transcriptional gates are uniquely suited to the design of a complementary NAND gate that can serve as an underlying basis of molecular computing that can output matter rather than electronic information." | 15:11 |
| kanzure | i did so many gels :( | 15:11 |
| poppingtonic | kanzure: ? | 15:12 |
| kanzure | how do you think they tested these molecules | 15:12 |
| kanzure | lots and lots of pcr | 15:12 |
| poppingtonic | ooh. | 15:14 |
| -!- chris_99 [~chris_99@unaffiliated/chris-99/x-3062929] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] | 15:27 | |
| kanzure | this constructor theory stuff is a little long-winded, http://arxiv.org/pdf/1210.7439v2.pdf | 15:48 |
| kragen | fenn: I think RNA processing has a high enough error rate that you need to incorporate error correction coding at a very low level | 15:50 |
| -!- ebowden [~ebowden@CPE-124-187-233-85.lns2.dav.bigpond.net.au] has joined ##hplusroadmap | 15:52 | |
| -!- nmz787_i [~nmccorkx@134.134.139.72] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] | 15:53 | |
| poppingtonic | kragen: has any of the simulations we've been discussing been shown to evolve such codes? | 15:55 |
| kragen | poppingtonic: I don't know enough about them. they'd have to introduce random errors into the replication process in order to evolve error correction though | 15:56 |
| kanzure | "For example, the principle of testability is doubly counterfactual: it is that a certain task (the test, resulting in a falsifying outcome) must be possible if the theory is false" | 15:59 |
| -!- eudoxia [~eudoxia@r179-25-173-76.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined ##hplusroadmap | 16:00 | |
| kanzure | page 27 section 3.1 is okay | 16:07 |
| kanzure | "3.9 Wealth; In constructor theory it is natural to define the wealth of an entity in a nonanthropocentric way as the set of transformations that the entity would be capable of performing without generating new knowledge. Wealth has always consisted fundamentally of knowledge, even though it has been limited by the capacity of relatively fixed installations for harnessing naturally occurring resources. Once universal constructors exist, ... | 16:14 |
| kanzure | ... it will consist almost entirely of knowledge." | 16:14 |
| poppingtonic | "No perfect constructors exist in nature. Approximations to them, such as catalysts or robots, have non-zero error rates and also deteriorate with repeated use. But we call a task A possible (which we write as A ✓ ) if the laws of nature impose no limit, short of perfection, on how accurately A could be performed, nor on how well things that are capable of approximately performing it could retain their ability to do so again." | 16:18 |
| -!- eudoxia [~eudoxia@r179-25-173-76.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Quit: Leaving] | 16:19 | |
| fenn | why even call it wealth if it's just knowledge | 16:22 |
| fenn | call it knowledge | 16:22 |
| fenn | .wik praxis | 16:23 |
| yoleaux | "Disambiguation: Praxis" — http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Praxis | 16:23 |
| kanzure | haha | 16:24 |
| kanzure | "the set of transformations that the entity would be capable of performing without generating new knowledge" is not the same thing as knowledge, methinks | 16:24 |
| kanzure | i think you can have knowledge that you can't reliably make tasks for, or something | 16:26 |
| kanzure | locally-useless knowledge | 16:26 |
| poppingtonic | does it have anything to do with incompressibility, K-complexity or minimum message length? | 16:27 |
| fenn | i'm sort of confused, is this talking about the real world? or some mathematical masturbation fantasy | 16:27 |
| kanzure | http://arxiv.org/pdf/1210.7439v2.pdf is talking about possible and impossible physical transformations, and principles as foundational to physics rather than laws of motion | 16:28 |
| fenn | how do you jam messy real world atoms and phonons and fields into an equation with "input state of substrates" on one side | 16:30 |
| fenn | there's a stupidly huge amount of information in every cubic micron of space | 16:31 |
| kanzure | this paper does not advocate that | 16:31 |
| kanzure | erm | 16:31 |
| fenn | then what the hell are they talking about | 16:31 |
| kanzure | this is a description not an equation | 16:31 |
| fenn | also, doesn't quantum uncertainty mess all this up | 16:31 |
| fenn | "Quantum indeterminacy is the apparent necessary incompleteness in the description of a physical system," | 16:32 |
| fenn | how can you say "possible" or "not possible" when you don't even know what's there | 16:32 |
| kanzure | my pdf search function must be broken | 16:33 |
| fenn | i'll believe "probability 1-1e-10000" but not "possible/not possible" | 16:33 |
| poppingtonic | fenn: see the sections re: superinformation. they discuss how CT dissolves/explains the disconnect between classical and quantum information. | 16:40 |
| -!- ebowden [~ebowden@CPE-124-187-233-85.lns2.dav.bigpond.net.au] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] | 16:42 | |
| fenn | "no perfect constructors can exist in nature" would seem to validate my perception that this has no connection to the real world | 16:44 |
| poppingtonic | that there can be no error? | 16:44 |
| poppingtonic | sorry | 16:44 |
| poppingtonic | that there *can* be error? | 16:45 |
| fenn | he goes on to talk about how factories and robots have non-zero error rates, and deteriorate over time | 16:45 |
| kanzure | he probably just thinks "perfect constructors" are perpetual motion machines | 16:46 |
| fenn | a perfect constructor wouldn't be violating any conservation of energy or entropy laws | 16:47 |
| fenn | catalysts aren't perpetual motion machines | 16:48 |
| fenn | i dunno what the theory say about maxwell's demon | 16:50 |
| fenn | (for all i know maxwell's demon is possible in reality) | 16:51 |
| -!- poppingt` [~poppingto@105.230.198.109] has joined ##hplusroadmap | 16:51 | |
| -!- poppingtonic is now known as Guest94538 | 16:53 | |
| -!- poppingt` is now known as poppingtonic` | 16:53 | |
| -!- Guest94538 [~poppingto@unaffiliated/poppingtonic] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] | 16:53 | |
| -!- poppingtonic` is now known as poppingtonic | 16:53 | |
| -!- poppingtonic [~poppingto@105.230.198.109] has quit [Changing host] | 16:54 | |
| -!- poppingtonic [~poppingto@unaffiliated/poppingtonic] has joined ##hplusroadmap | 16:54 | |
| fenn | by which i mean a heat pump with arbitrarily high coefficient of performance | 16:56 |
| -!- nmz787_i [~nmccorkx@192.55.55.41] has joined ##hplusroadmap | 16:57 | |
| fenn | wow i did not know this: "Before the discovery of DNA, von Neumann (1948) wondered how organisms can possibly reproduce themselves faithfully and evolve complex adaptations for doing so. He realized that an organism must be a _programmable_ constructor operating in two stages, namely copying its program and executing it to build another instance." | 16:58 |
| kanzure | before dna was discovered it was widely hypothesized in biology land | 17:00 |
| fenn | i hate the checkmark notation | 17:06 |
| fenn | it looks just like an apostrophe | 17:06 |
| -!- yashgaroth [~ffffff@2606:6000:cb85:6a00:8514:8e6d:ad14:3751] has quit [Quit: Leaving] | 17:07 | |
| kanzure | trolloglyphics | 17:07 |
| -!- yashgaroth [~ffffff@2606:6000:cb85:6a00:5d72:daa3:42f6:b18d] has joined ##hplusroadmap | 17:07 | |
| fenn | i think what this constructor theory really needs in order to be relevant is some realization about the limits of working with noisy systems like Shannon's noisy channel coding theorem | 17:09 |
| fenn | "it is possible to communicate discrete data (digital information) nearly error-free up to a computable maximum rate through the channel." i would add the relevant equation here but for hieroglyphics | 17:10 |
| fenn | similarly constructors need substrate to work on, which is comparable to discrete data | 17:11 |
| fenn | so it would be something like, "it is possible to construct artifacts (physical objects) nearly error-free up to a computable maximum rate in the workspace" | 17:14 |
| fenn | call it the dirty workspace building theorem | 17:17 |
| nmz787_i | I need some code that given a number say, 13, and some constant like 10, would generate the numbers 10 and 3 | 17:18 |
| nmz787_i | or if it was 23 generate 10 10 and 3 | 17:18 |
| -!- ebowden [~ebowden@CPE-124-187-233-85.lns2.dav.bigpond.net.au] has joined ##hplusroadmap | 17:18 | |
| nmz787_i | the only thing I can think of is a while num_left>0: ; num_left-= 10; if num_left<0: 10+abs(num_left); | 17:19 |
| nmz787_i | but I really want something more like an assembly instruction, where the subtract operation returns the number removed | 17:19 |
| nmz787_i | but it would need to be unsigned and not rollover | 17:20 |
| fenn | .wik knapsack problem | 17:24 |
| nmz787_i | oh, i guess a for loop with int division then handling the remainder with a modulo division will work | 17:24 |
| yoleaux | "The knapsack problem or rucksack problem is a problem in combinatorial optimization: Given a set of items, each with a mass and a value, determine the number of each item to include in a collection so that the total weight is less than or equal to a given limit and the total value is as large as possible. It derives its name from the …" — http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Knapsack_problem | 17:24 |
| fenn | or just 23%10 = 3 so 23 - 3 = 20 and 20/10 = 2 | 17:25 |
| nmz787_i | .py t=23; for i in range(0,t/10): t-=10; print 10; ; print t%10 | 17:25 |
| yoleaux | SyntaxError: invalid syntax (<string>, line 1) | 17:25 |
| nmz787_i | .py t=23; for i in range(0,t/10): t-=10; print 10; if t%10>0: print t%10 | 17:26 |
| yoleaux | SyntaxError: invalid syntax (<string>, line 1) | 17:26 |
| nmz787_i | .py t=23; for i in range(0,t/10): t-=10; print 10; if t%10>0: ;print t%10 | 17:26 |
| yoleaux | SyntaxError: invalid syntax (<string>, line 1) | 17:26 |
| nmz787_i | well i fail at this irc python | 17:26 |
| fenn | i had some trouble with it too | 17:27 |
| fenn | also you can't do for loops on one line in python | 17:27 |
| fenn | also int division is the devil | 17:28 |
| nmz787_i | the devil? | 17:30 |
| fenn | i shouldn't give it that much credit. "the devil is in the details" | 17:30 |
| nmz787_i | i heard new python changed division or something to return floats by default, maybe.... something 'new' | 17:31 |
| fenn | python's defaulting to int division has caused more trouble than any other "feature" | 17:31 |
| -!- ThomasEgi [~thomas@panda3d/ThomasEgi] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] | 17:31 | |
| nmz787_i | but isn't that computer's default in general?\ | 17:31 |
| fenn | no? | 17:31 |
| nmz787_i | no? | 17:32 |
| nmz787_i | C it is the default I think | 17:32 |
| nmz787_i | and assembly too | 17:32 |
| fenn | C is not "a computer" | 17:32 |
| fenn | i dont really know what happens in the ALU when you try to divide two numbers | 17:32 |
| -!- augur [~augur@c-71-57-177-235.hsd1.fl.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving...] | 17:32 | |
| nmz787_i | floating point is more work | 17:32 |
| nmz787_i | unless you have some analog computer maybe | 17:32 |
| * fenn looks at https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Division_algorithm#Integer_division_.28unsigned.29_with_remainder | 17:34 | |
| fenn | the problem with python's int division is it silently throws away the remainder | 17:35 |
| fenn | .py 2/3 | 17:35 |
| yoleaux | 0 | 17:35 |
| nmz787_i | that seems perfectly legit for an int | 17:36 |
| fenn | yeah if you're thinking about in division fine | 17:36 |
| -!- nmz787_i [~nmccorkx@192.55.55.41] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] | 17:36 | |
| fenn | but usually this happens buried deep in some program somewhere, and you get a bizarre incorrect result after changing a configuration value | 17:36 |
| fenn | such rudeness! | 17:38 |
| -!- narwh4l [~michael@unaffiliated/thesnark] has quit [Quit: "sleeptime"] | 17:39 | |
| -!- ebowden [~ebowden@CPE-124-187-233-85.lns2.dav.bigpond.net.au] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] | 17:42 | |
| -!- nmz787_i [~nmccorkx@192.55.55.41] has joined ##hplusroadmap | 17:53 | |
| fenn | https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Order_and_Chaos.tif | 17:58 |
| fenn | "to determine whether to let a molecule through, the demon must acquire information about the state of the molecule and either discard it or store it. Discarding it leads to immediate increase in entropy but the demon cannot store it indefinitely" | 18:04 |
| -!- augur [~augur@c-71-57-177-235.hsd1.fl.comcast.net] has joined ##hplusroadmap | 18:05 | |
| -!- delinquentme [~dingo@74.61.157.78] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] | 18:09 | |
| -!- DumpsterD1ver [~loki@vpn166.sdf.org] has joined ##hplusroadmap | 18:10 | |
| -!- juri_ [~juri@vpn166.sdf.org] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] | 18:10 | |
| -!- juri_ [~juri@vpn166.sdf.org] has joined ##hplusroadmap | 18:11 | |
| -!- Vutral [ss@mirbsd/special/Vutral] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] | 18:28 | |
| -!- Vutral [ss@mirbsd/special/Vutral] has joined ##hplusroadmap | 18:38 | |
| -!- rayston [~rayston@ip68-106-242-42.ph.ph.cox.net] has joined ##hplusroadmap | 18:39 | |
| -!- delinquentme [~dingo@74.61.157.78] has joined ##hplusroadmap | 18:44 | |
| kanzure | "The origin of cells was the most important step in the evolution of life on Earth. The birth of the cell marked the passage from pre-biotic chemistry to partitioned units resembling modern cells. The final transition to living entities that fulfill all the definitions of modern cells depended on the ability to evolve effectively by natural selection. This transition has been called the Darwinian transition." | 19:00 |
| kanzure | wikipedia is full of crap | 19:00 |
| -!- Merovoth [~Merovoth@gateway/tor-sasl/merovoth] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] | 19:01 | |
| -!- maaku [~quassel@173-228-107-141.dsl.static.fusionbroadband.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] | 19:03 | |
| catern | the origin of cells was the most important step in the evolution of life on Earth from the perspective of things made up of cells | 19:09 |
| kanzure | the development of cells did not mark some event where natural selection suddenly started -_- | 19:11 |
| kanzure | oh wait | 19:12 |
| kanzure | okay their grammar just sucks | 19:12 |
| fenn | i get the feeling that paragraph was edited many times by different people | 19:16 |
| fenn | rationale for deletion WP:ThisSucks | 19:16 |
| kanzure | i suppose it is wrong to think that a simulation should have self-replicators developing cells | 19:17 |
| kanzure | "cells" take advantage of lipid biophysics and nobody should have to implement lipid biophysics and the rest of reality | 19:18 |
| fenn | cells only make sense if you have brownian motion diffusing concentrations away | 19:18 |
| fenn | otherwise piles are fine | 19:18 |
| kanzure | there are some defense/immune benefits | 19:19 |
| fenn | sure, castles | 19:19 |
| kanzure | and environment protection benefits, which i think ounts as defense or immune | 19:19 |
| superkuh | Lipid biophysics contributes more to cells than just partitioning. | 19:19 |
| fenn | yeah it's an energy storage mechanism like a capacitor | 19:19 |
| kanzure | selective permeability.... bleh. | 19:19 |
| fenn | also it constrains catalysts and substrates to a 2d plane | 19:21 |
| fenn | something about anaerobic synthesis environments for nitrogen fixation | 19:22 |
| fenn | but that wasn't important until much later | 19:23 |
| kanzure | could be an entirely non-biological simulator. no need to program in organic chemistry, molecular dynamics, etc. | 19:24 |
| fenn | yeah who needs interesting stuff | 19:25 |
| -!- Viper168_ [~Viper@unaffiliated/viper168] has joined ##hplusroadmap | 19:25 | |
| -!- Viper168 [~Viper@unaffiliated/viper168] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] | 19:25 | |
| fenn | let them eat blocks | 19:25 |
| kanzure | i think there's something wrong with those block simulators but i don't quite know what | 19:25 |
| kanzure | the lack of link between code and blocks is one issue | 19:26 |
| kanzure | disembodied genes just doesn't make sense | 19:26 |
| fenn | what block simulators | 19:26 |
| kanzure | tierra turned into some "robot with wheels" simulator :( | 19:26 |
| fenn | why | 19:26 |
| kanzure | because they need bodies and cells! | 19:27 |
| fenn | the dying-inside counter is reaching pretty far into the negative | 19:27 |
| kanzure | hm? | 19:27 |
| fenn | earlier you said something like "if any more pieces of me die inside there might be nothing left" | 19:27 |
| fenn | after a particularly heinous IT fail | 19:28 |
| -!- Viper168_ is now known as Viper168 | 19:28 | |
| fenn | just extending that metaphor beyond zero | 19:28 |
| -!- Viper168 [~Viper@unaffiliated/viper168] has quit [Max SendQ exceeded] | 19:29 | |
| fenn | i think we need more superresolution microscopy photos in the world | 19:30 |
| fenn | people think cells are just these blobs blobbing around | 19:30 |
| kanzure | they are antenna forests | 19:30 |
| fenn | i mean this is pretty sad really http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Celltypes.svg | 19:31 |
| -!- Viper168_ [~Viper@unaffiliated/viper168] has joined ##hplusroadmap | 19:31 | |
| kanzure | http://files.arcfn.com/images/cell-vesicle.png | 19:32 |
| -!- Viper168_ is now known as Viper168 | 19:32 | |
| fenn | getting there | 19:32 |
| fenn | http://mgl.scripps.edu/people/goodsell/illustration/mycoplasma | 19:32 |
| kanzure | i'm not sure simulating that is a priority. that's a lot of extra physics. | 19:34 |
| fenn | and talking about eukaryotes (sorry for the low res) http://mgl.scripps.edu/people/goodsell/illustration/pdb/panorama_poster.jpg | 19:34 |
| kanzure | https://static1.cosmosmagazine.com/sites/default/files/styles/cosmos_holodeck_image/public/070714_holodeck_2.jpg?itok=Ds1wYMdD | 19:35 |
| fenn | it doesnt like the token | 19:36 |
| kanzure | http://mgl.scripps.edu/people/goodsell/books/MoL2figures | 19:37 |
| fenn | ah yes the flagella painting; i had that printed out 1m x 2m on my dorm room wall | 19:37 |
| -!- delinquentme [~dingo@74.61.157.78] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] | 19:38 | |
| fenn | http://fennetic.net/irc/goodsell/goodsell-2.jpg | 19:38 |
| kanzure | http://mgl.scripps.edu/people/goodsell/books/MoL2figures/Figure3.9a-reduced.jpg | 19:39 |
| fenn | welp i know what i'll be scraping | 19:42 |
| fenn | "Nanotechnology is available, today, to anyone with a laboratory and imagination. You can create custom nanomachines using commercially available kits and reagents. You can design and build nanoscale assemblers that synthesize interesting molecules. You can construct tiny machines that seek out cancer cells and kill them. You can build molecule-size sensors for detecting light, acidity or trace | 19:44 |
| fenn | amounts of poisonous metals. Nanotechnology is a reality today, and nanotechnology is accessible with remarkably modest resources." | 19:44 |
| kanzure | except it's highly unstable and totally broken | 19:45 |
| fenn | "Modern cells provide us with an elaborate, efficient set of molecular machines that restructure matter atom-by-atom, exactly to our specifications. And with the well-tested techniques of biotechnology, we can extend the function of these machines for our own goals, modifying existing biomolecular nanomachines or designing entirely new ones." | 19:45 |
| fenn | just think of it as pushing the boundaries of construction performance in a messy workspace | 19:45 |
| kanzure | "atom-by-atom, exactly to our specifications" is stretching it | 19:45 |
| -!- yashgaroth [~ffffff@2606:6000:cb85:6a00:5d72:daa3:42f6:b18d] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] | 19:46 | |
| fenn | you can make any shape you want, as long as it's a string of amino acids | 19:47 |
| kanzure | most of those strings get folded though | 19:47 |
| kanzure | so that's not really true | 19:47 |
| fenn | i meant that to be more snarky | 19:47 |
| fenn | .wik you can get any color you want as long as it's black | 19:48 |
| yoleaux | fenn: Sorry, that command (.wik) crashed. | 19:48 |
| fenn | oh well | 19:48 |
| -!- yashgaroth [~ffffff@2606:6000:cb85:6a00:5d72:daa3:42f6:b18d] has joined ##hplusroadmap | 19:49 | |
| fenn | aw now his webserver hates me | 19:51 |
| kanzure | i viewed all images with at least 2 seconds before each view | 19:52 |
| kanzure | also, always use a user agent condom | 19:52 |
| fenn | maybe it's just borked; gnusha won't load the page anymore either | 19:52 |
| fenn | anyway looks like an interesting book http://mgl.scripps.edu/people/goodsell/books/bionanotech-contents.html | 19:54 |
| fenn | Buy eBook - $116.99 | 19:56 |
| fenn | coloring books werent so expensive when i was a kid | 19:57 |
| kanzure | "We can start the experiment with a population containing only nude replicators but the environment of the organisms can be arbitrary complex: the environment consists of computable tasks These tasks should be learned by the organisms. The organisms can pick up pieces of data (integer numbers in the current state of the implementation) and after processing them they simply write the result back to the environment. This process can be ... | 19:57 |
| kanzure | ... considered as some kind of metabolism. Data transformation is just like eating and digesting." | 19:57 |
| -!- delinquentme [~dingo@74.61.157.78] has joined ##hplusroadmap | 19:58 | |
| kanzure | but.... | 19:58 |
| kanzure | what's the selective value of "processing some data" to them? | 19:58 |
| fenn | how od you know what's a replicator | 19:59 |
| kanzure | quote is from http://physis.sourceforge.net/old/doc/papers/icai.pdf | 19:59 |
| -!- Viper168 [~Viper@unaffiliated/viper168] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] | 19:59 | |
| kanzure | well one way of knowing a replicator is if you run BLAST and see the same thing in your population | 19:59 |
| -!- shubhamgoyal [~shubhamgo@118.189.209.93] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] | 19:59 | |
| kanzure | another way is that i think this author's system has replicators-only | 19:59 |
| fenn | apparently | 20:00 |
| fenn | what if your replicators build other kinds of replicators you hadn't intended | 20:00 |
| kanzure | what do you mean "what if" ? | 20:01 |
| kanzure | oh, still asking about classification | 20:01 |
| kanzure | does that matter? | 20:01 |
| fenn | i mean most of these alife experiments start out with ridiculously boring assumptions and preconceived conclusions | 20:01 |
| kanzure | like what? | 20:01 |
| fenn | like "here we have a replicator, and here's some data it will digest." | 20:01 |
| kanzure | hehe | 20:01 |
| fenn | "observe as the data is transformed into digital poo" | 20:02 |
| fenn | where's the room for surprising discoveries and unexpected outcomes | 20:02 |
| fenn | digital systems were created so we could have _unsurprising_ outcomes, so you have to do a bit of work to get back to complexity | 20:03 |
| kanzure | .title http://arxiv.org/abs/physics/0302046 | 20:10 |
| yoleaux | [physics/0302046] Does the Red Queen reign in the kingdom of digital organisms? | 20:10 |
| kanzure | "In competition experiments between two RNA viruses of equal or almost equal fitness, often both strains gain in fitness before one eventually excludes the other. This observation has been linked to the Red Queen effect, which describes a situation in which organisms have to constantly adapt just to keep their status quo. I carried out experiments with digital organisms (self-replicating computer programs) in order to clarify how the ... | 20:10 |
| kanzure | ... competing strains' location in fitness space influences the Red-Queen effect. I found that gains in fitness during competition were prevalent for organisms that were taken from the base of a fitness peak, but absent or rare for organisms that were taken from the top of a peak or from a considerable distance away from the nearest peak. In the latter two cases, either neutral drift and loss of the fittest mutants or the waiting time to ... | 20:10 |
| kanzure | ... the first beneficial mutation were more important factors. Moreover, I found that the Red-Queen dynamic in general led to faster exclusion than the other two mechanisms." | 20:10 |
| kanzure | you could use arbitrary degees of freedom but i wouldn't know what to do with that data or how to tell if it was working | 20:16 |
| kanzure | where different resources would be part of that (i guess this is more like a "vector" or "channel") | 20:16 |
| fenn | http://fennetic.net/irc/David%20S.%20Goodsell%20-Bionanotechnology%20Lessons%20from%20Nature%20%5b2004%5d.pdf | 20:16 |
| fenn | dear lazyweb, please read and send me mindstate diffs | 20:17 |
| kanzure | your wish has been granted, but the diffs can only arrive over years of snarky irc conversations | 20:18 |
| fenn | no i said a thousand bucks, not a thousand ducks | 20:19 |
| fenn | does anyone know what this dolphin exoskeleton is from, and why does it have a huge mechanical cock http://fennetic.net/irc/Neofin-thumb.jpg | 20:21 |
| -!- rayston [~rayston@ip68-106-242-42.ph.ph.cox.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] | 20:22 | |
| kanzure | something something david brin | 20:23 |
| kanzure | neofins were from his uplift stuff | 20:24 |
| -!- nmz787_i [~nmccorkx@192.55.55.41] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] | 20:29 | |
| kanzure | https://medium.com/@jorge_lo/the-future-a-cat-litter-and-drm-6dbda26428f8 | 20:37 |
| kanzure | "Seriously CatGenie, you added fairly sophisticated DRM to a litter box? I’m a tad hurt you spent my money on building in a restriction instead of figuring out how to avoid constantly cooking poop." | 20:37 |
| kanzure | "I did some Googling, and I found that the “Smart” in SmartCartridge is that it has an RFID chip inside of it to keep track of how much solution it has, and once it runs out, well, you can't refill it. I honestly did not believe this and tore one of the cartridges apart, and there it was, looking back at me, a tiny chip holding up it’s little metal finger." | 20:39 |
| kanzure | "Thankfully, some amazing people are helping the CatGenie community.(Yeah, there’s a CatGenie community). They’ve released products like the custom firmware CatGenius and CartridgeGenius which allows you to use whatever solution you want." | 20:39 |
| kanzure | hah | 20:39 |
| kanzure | what a pile of crap | 20:39 |
| kanzure | yeast fermentation power supply https://farm9.staticflickr.com/8455/8008302313_0fc1120a12_b.jpg | 20:49 |
| fenn | in future soviet russia, chip tells YOU no refills | 20:49 |
| fenn | i can see the discrete cosine blocks | 20:51 |
| kanzure | data digestion... who comes up with this stuff... | 20:55 |
| -!- DumpsterD1ver [~loki@vpn166.sdf.org] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] | 21:07 | |
| delinquentme | BTW adblocks quite well for killing the new games feed on facebook | 21:09 |
| kanzure | https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_m97_kL4ox0&t=5m53s | 21:24 |
| kanzure | wut | 21:24 |
| kanzure | i remember the arm reaching one but i don't remember why | 21:28 |
| fenn | the slithy toves did gyre and gimble in the wabe | 21:29 |
| fenn | this looks like hod lipson's stuff | 21:29 |
| kanzure | oh yeah hod still exists | 21:29 |
| fenn | you gotta admit this kind of simulation is way more entertaining than a bunch of colored lines on a memory map | 21:30 |
| kanzure | so why didn't they try to get one that pushes the prize towards them (running with the prize, even), while pushing the enemy away or using a pincher to move the enemy away | 21:31 |
| fenn | you're talking about t=10m20s ? | 21:31 |
| kanzure | yes that program | 21:32 |
| fenn | 1994 karl sims | 21:33 |
| fenn | i gave a presentation at that very podium, i wonder if there's a recording on the web | 21:36 |
| kanzure | i remember seeing a video of that, so yes | 21:37 |
| kanzure | nope, wrong podium | 21:40 |
| fenn | it was 4 years later than that video so they might have changed some stuff | 21:41 |
| kanzure | http://vimeo.com/28735276 | 21:42 |
| kanzure | ? | 21:42 |
| fenn | no that was stanford | 21:43 |
| fenn | at google we were talking about hacker dojo and i was talking about the hardware lab and why one might want a hardware lab | 21:44 |
| fenn | http://wiki.hackerdojo.com/w/page/26349587/Dojo@Google | 21:45 |
| fenn | you probably know jeff lindsay (progrium) from his postbin stuff | 21:51 |
| kanzure | stalkerlog has no intersections here | 21:52 |
| fenn | it was a link you spammed at me once | 21:52 |
| kanzure | stalkerlog has some leaks occassionally | 21:53 |
| fenn | "I learned that the Internet does not understand the juxtaposition between scientific-graphs and trolling." | 22:01 |
| fenn | from this graph i deduce that pedophiles are geniuses http://booksthatmakeyoudumb.virgil.gr | 22:03 |
| kanzure | they have to be geniuses otherwise they get-- well, actually, i have no idea | 22:05 |
| -!- Viper168 [~Viper@unaffiliated/viper168] has joined ##hplusroadmap | 22:21 | |
| fenn | is this someone we know http://www.phreedom.org/ | 22:23 |
| fenn | phreedom was from ukraine | 22:26 |
| -!- Viper168 [~Viper@unaffiliated/viper168] has quit [Max SendQ exceeded] | 22:26 | |
| -!- Viper168 [~Viper@unaffiliated/viper168] has joined ##hplusroadmap | 22:27 | |
| kanzure | reminds me of https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sMnYBHUdk84&t=30s | 22:29 |
| fenn | haha virgil griffith is friends with vitalik buterin | 22:30 |
| fenn | "NNDB is an intelligence aggregator that tracks the activities of people we have determined to be noteworthy, both living and dead." | 22:31 |
| kanzure | "Over 40,000 profiles are available." fucking casuals | 22:32 |
| -!- maaku [~quassel@173-228-107-141.dsl.static.fusionbroadband.com] has joined ##hplusroadmap | 22:32 | |
| -!- maaku is now known as Guest2758 | 22:32 | |
| fenn | it's "notable" people | 22:33 |
| fenn | Prime Minister of Belgium | 22:33 |
| -!- Guest2758 is now known as maaku | 22:33 | |
| fenn | US Senator from Alabama | 22:33 |
| fenn | Global Positioning System | 22:33 |
| fenn | Alien designer | 22:34 |
| fenn | you know, the important stuff | 22:34 |
| kanzure | "known alien" | 22:34 |
| fenn | H. R. Giger was the most notable of those | 22:35 |
| fenn | imho | 22:36 |
| fenn | King Zog - Royalty - King of Albania | 22:38 |
| kanzure | .title http://scholar.google.com/scholar?cites=14781935138049637300&as_sdt=5,44&sciodt=0,44&hl=en | 22:44 |
| yoleaux | Sorry... | 22:44 |
| fenn | just "Sorry..." | 22:44 |
| kanzure | a lifeform without rna/dna binding to external materials would be pretty boring or going nowhere fast | 22:51 |
| -!- poppingtonic [~poppingto@unaffiliated/poppingtonic] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] | 22:54 | |
| -!- juri__ [~juri@50.242.254.37] has joined ##hplusroadmap | 23:00 | |
| -!- juri_ [~juri@vpn166.sdf.org] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] | 23:01 | |
| -!- juri__ [~juri@50.242.254.37] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] | 23:06 | |
| -!- poppingtonic [~poppingto@unaffiliated/poppingtonic] has joined ##hplusroadmap | 23:41 | |
| -!- juri_ [~juri@vpn166.sdf.org] has joined ##hplusroadmap | 23:43 | |
Generated by irclog2html.py 2.15.0.dev0 by Marius Gedminas - find it at mg.pov.lt!
